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The Pope in Israel: "He Was a Part of Them!"
Drudge is leading today with Israeli criticism of Pope Benedict's Holocaust speech at Yad Vashem, during which, according to one local newspaper, he appeared "restrained, almost cold." Speaker of the Knesset Reuven Rivlin stepped up attacks on Benedict, accusing him of a fascist past: "He came and told us as if he were a historian, someone looking in from the sidelines, about things that should not have happened. And what can you do? He was a part of them." (emphasis added)
According to Rivlin, Benedict was a "German who joined the Hitler Youth and...a person who joined Hitler's army, which was an instrument in the extermination." It is a tired debate at this point, the details of which were pored over after Benedict's ascension to the papacy, but it is also worth quickly pointing out that the Pope-as-Nazi charge is still an enormous stretch.
Rivlin is presumably pointing to this 1996 statement, when the then-Cardinal Ratzinger addressed his membership in the Hitler Youth (HJ) in an interview: "At first we weren't, but when the compulsory Hitler Youth was introduced in 1941 (sic), my brother was obliged to join. I was still too young, but later, as a seminarian, I was registered in the HY (sic). As soon as I was out of the seminary I never went back."
Ratzinger's memory is slightly off here: membership in the Hitler Youth became compulsory in 1939, not 1941, when the number of 10- to 18-year-old Germans enrolled reached an astonishing 98.1 percent. If they weren't first compelled by their parents, school comrades, or teachers, they were then compelled by the state. It is disingenuous to state, without qualification, that Ratzinger "joined the Hitler Youth."
As for the claim that Benedict was "part of them," a "person who joined Hitler's army," Reuters explains that this is likely a reference to having "served on anti-aircraft batteries" as a member of the HJ. In early 1943, Luftwaffe chief Hermann Goering ordered HJ members between the ages of 15 and 17 to serve as anti-aircraft gunners, in order to reroute 120,000 servicemen to more active roles on the front lines. According to historian Michael Kater, author of a history of the Hitler Youth and this terrific book on jazz culture in Nazi Germany, the total number of children conscripted into the anti-aircraft corps between 1943 and 1945 was approximately 200,000. By the end of the war, when the country was relying on a mixture of the elderly and underage, flak crews of HJ members included both boys and girls.
There are plenty of things for which Pope Benedict—and the Catholic Church—deserves criticism (especially the disgraceful Bishop Williamson episode). But his childhood isn't one of them.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 6:11PM|#
Reuven Rivlin: When *Reason* magazine begins saying that your
criticism of the Pope is excessive, then maybe, just maybe, you
should consider the possibility that you have gone off the deep
end.
It's as if Louis Farrakhan told you that you're being too harsh on
white people.
johnl|5.12.09 @ 6:18PM|#
OK, B16 is cold and restrained compared to the bold and charismatic JP2. What a strange thing to complain about.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 6:33PM|#
The Pope made himself liable to *capital punishment* by
deserting from Hitler's armed forces. How many members of the
Knesset, or the Reason Foundation, committed a capital crime by
defying Hitler?
As rabbi
David Dalin makes clear, the Pope's predecessor, Pius XII,
saved more Jews from Hitler's gas chambers than Reuven Rivlin and
the Reason Foundation put together.
VM|5.12.09 @ 6:43PM|#
"There are plenty of things for which Pope Benedict-and the
Catholic Church-deserves criticism (especially the disgraceful
Bishop Williamson episode). But his childhood isn't one of them.
"
qft.
and I have the mel gibson wanna be mentally filtered, so I can only
imagine what twisted, sick contortions he's going through to make
his grand salamander pure.
(Sinead did a good thing on SNL)
ed|5.12.09 @ 7:08PM|#
Then again, it's the friggin' Pope. Given the history of this enterprise, what exactly are the standards? Murder, mayhem, adultery...it's not like it hasn't been done.
jester|5.12.09 @ 7:08PM|#
Awesome. Let's get the hagiography going on Benedict (aka
Ratzinger). Miracle No. 1: evaded Nazis and lived. Miracle No. 2:
was German and didn't become a libertine atheist frequenting
gender-bending clubs in Berlin.
I'd say he's a sure bet.
|5.12.09 @ 7:14PM|#
Mad Max-
Amen. Except Moynihan should be skewered for his reference to
Bishop Williamson. Again, if you write for a periodical which
falsely claims to be about free minds and free markets, you should
be relentless in your condemnation of hate speech laws and the
oirganizations that promote them.
One such organization is the ADL. Another is the Southern Poverty
Law Center. These groups are the very quintessence of "hate" and
"extremism" as they seek to criminalize thought. When the
revolution comes, believe me, they better hope that the John Galts
of the world show them more mercy than they have extended to those
who have questioned the holocaust narrative.
Christians have the right to say that the jews were christ killers.
Muslims have the right to say that jews are swine. In a free
society, there is no "right" for a group to be offended.
|5.12.09 @ 7:15PM|#
Screw the Hitler Youth thing. Ratzinger's actions and statements as an adult are what make him a vulgar, disgusting asshole.
|5.12.09 @ 7:21PM|#
Genocide in Gaza. That is what the pope should be talking about. Ethnic cleansing and the culture of hate championed by the socialist cess pool-Israel.
Mister DNA|5.12.09 @ 7:22PM|#
OT, but has anyone else read about
Hugo Chavez launching a cell phone line?
Is the name Spanish for "Dictaphone"?
|5.12.09 @ 7:23PM|#
I'll take the pope over "Bibi" any day. I would take Chavez over
Begin. I would take Castro over Sharon.
Who has butchered more people?
(a) Begin
(b) Sharon
(c) David Duke
jester|5.12.09 @ 7:27PM|#
libertymike,
yes free speech is protected. Moynihan isn't suggesting it
shouldn't. But defending free speech isn't the same as defending
stupidity.
I can defend a holocaust-denier his free speech, but that doesn't
mean I agree with the mongoloid.
|5.12.09 @ 7:27PM|#
This controversy is a clash between two ways of understanding
guilt and responsibility.
In Western Civilization, there is a tradition of judging people
based on their own actions:
How is the individual connected to the wrong that was
committed?
Was the connection coerced?
Was it an accident of birth?
Jewish thought retains an element of tribalism, perhaps due to it's
unique situation as both a religion and an ethnicity. Guilt often
gets assigned collectively:
He was a part of them!
One of the tragedies of the Western world today is that we're
giving up our healthy, just, individualistic set of criteria for
assigning guilt and replacing it with this other one.
Don't get me wrong, Europeans have an ugly history of tribalism and
racism, too (cf: the crusades, Salem, Jim Crow lynching, etc). The
difference is that these things are contrasted against the normal
(personal responsibility) framework and condemned, at least after
the fact.
You can't argue against "He was a part of them!"
It exists outside the scope of reason.
|5.12.09 @ 7:28PM|#
In a free society, there is no "right" for a group to be
offended.
Of course there is a right to be offended, so long as that offense
doesn't take the form of coercing those who offend you.
The right to say something is not the same as the right to be free
from criticism for saying it. I'm a loyal Papist myself and I
scratch my head wondering what Benedict was thinking during that
episode. I know he's trying to bring the Lefebvrites back into the
fold, but to be caught so flat-footed on the matter makes one
wonder.
jester|5.12.09 @ 7:30PM|#
Also a dickhead dictator is a dickhead dictator. I don't need to get out a color wheel to see just how dickheaded he is. Dickhead sufficeth.
|5.12.09 @ 7:33PM|#
Right. If only Jews would be more like Europeans, who as we know never take out their frustrations on minority groups.
|5.12.09 @ 7:59PM|#
Jester-
There is a surfeit of energy expended castigating folks like Bishop
Williamson. From Reason and too many other Zionopiles here, there
is comparatively little condemnation of hate speech legislation and
prosecution and the organizations, like ADL and AIPAC, along with
the Southern Poverty Law Center, that support them.
What is stupid is to spend a disproportioate amount of time
screaming that Williamson is stupid or anti-semetic while not
opposing hate speech legislation and prosecution and its supporters
with every fibre of one's being.
|5.12.09 @ 8:04PM|#
libertymike, some of us don't have much fibre in our beings to oppose with. But I have some extra saturated fat if that helps.
|5.12.09 @ 8:06PM|#
You know that I am not a "when in Rome, do as the Romans"
type of guy.
I used to be, but then Episiarch told me that European women don't
walk around bare breasted all the time.
MJ|5.12.09 @ 8:08PM|#
So to Reuvan Rivlin anyone who has been compelled into the service of the state is responsible for the crimes of that state? Interesting opinion for one who's country has compulsory military service.
|5.12.09 @ 8:10PM|#
Crimethink-
Anarcho-free enterprise-individualist.
Can you tell I abhor groupthink? IMO, one who identifies oneself
exclusively, principally or even significantly, by one's race,
religion, national origin, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation
and nation state is one intellectually challenged, spiritiually
stunted piece of cannon fodder puddy in the hands of the
totalitarian gangsters like Adolph Hitler, to name one.
|5.12.09 @ 8:15PM|#
Elasomorph-
Endomorphs are cool. My office manager is an endomorph. She is a
Mad Max type of gal-she would never walk around bare
breasted-except on family planning nights, exclusively with her
husband.
jester|5.12.09 @ 8:19PM|#
LibMike,
There is no overpiling nor can there ever be any overpiling on any
stupid idea or thought. If we could put stupid ideas inside Yucca
Mountain, maybe Nevadans would be even more vociferous.
Neither I nor Reason (in my experience) seem to be shills for the
statist Israel nor US policy towards Israel. Au contraire, mon
frere.
Calling out the AIPAC, ADL or SPLC and applying a sliding scale of
dishonesty is not fair on your part. Why can't I call it all
bullshit. I don't need a microscope to determine bullshit.
If you are a practicing faithful Catholic, you have volunteered to
come to a no-holds-barred forum. Your faith will be trashed
consistently and repeatedly.
God Bless You for caring enough to visit and take your medecine.
There are important things in this world that the Catholic Church
has willfully ignored. Maybe that is why you are here?
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 8:20PM|#
'IMO, one who identifies oneself exclusively, principally or
even significantly, by one's race, religion, national origin,
gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation and nation state is one
intellectually challenged, spiritiually stunted piece of cannon
fodder puddy in the hands of the totalitarian gangsters like Adolph
Hitler, to name one.'
Were this thread not pre-Godwinned, you would have Godwinned
it.
|5.12.09 @ 8:24PM|#
Mad Max-
That means I go out of my way to point out that there is a grand
canyon sized divide between a priest sodomizing a six year old and
ole father Coleman who had an affinity for grabbing the cheeks of
the sixteen and seventeen year old boys and maintaining his grip
for an extra second or two while assisitng them up the ladder of
the raft nestled in the middle of a pastoral lake (could not
resist) while on the annual parish/youth summer outing.
Max, distincitons like the above matter-
|5.12.09 @ 8:33PM|#
I used to be, but then Episiarch told me that European women
don't walk around bare breasted all the time.
Hey, go to a nude beach on the Mediterranean. You'll see. You'll
mostly see old guys' balls and a few saggy old ladies, but hey, you
need to experience this for yourself.
As for the Pope, you're all failing to answer the ultimate
question: does he shit in the woods?
|5.12.09 @ 8:35PM|#
i>I can defend a holocaust-denier his free speech, but that
doesn't mean I agree with the mongoloid.
And lifting Williamson's excommunication is not an endorsement of
said mongoloid's views.
(In other late-breaking news, the Catholic Church no longer
excommunicates people for their views, whether mongoloid or
scientific, on whether the earth revolves around the sun.)
jester|5.12.09 @ 8:38PM|#
Youth Summer Outing:
So you Catholics determine who is gay during summer get-togethers.
Great way to pick a celibate priesthood.
Disclaimer: I don't identify with your 'group', you do. I still see
you as LibertyMike and MadMax.
|5.12.09 @ 8:41PM|#
Mad Max-
Please? Not buying it at all.
1. See my last post.
2. I have always made damn sure that the names of Stalin, Mikoyan,
Beria, Andropov, Molotov, Mao, Ivan the Terrible, Jackson (andy the
cherokee hater) Lincoln, Sherman, Custer (June 24, 1876 was
awesome, baby!), Eisenhower (Bonus marchers, 1932-check that out)
et al are not forgotten in discussions about mass murderers. Since
O.J. was acquitted, I do not include him.
3. The canon fodder are puddy for lesser gangsters like Father
Coughlin and Jerry "triple chin" Falwell as well.
4. There are a lot of people here who might think that I don't take
off the gloves regarding the vagabond from vienna.
Max, your Godwin shot is an air ball.
jester|5.12.09 @ 8:47PM|#
Seamus,
Enlighten me. I think of the Catholic Church as a dogmatic
religion. Orders come from on High.
Ergo, readmitting someone who went off the deep-end without
repentence(Or did he repent??? Need to know this) is
acceptance.
So in essence The Vatican is accepting these views.
Again, enlighten me.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 8:47PM|#
Seamus,
The Vatican was acknowledging
the reality of global warming in 2001, when Ron
Bailey was denying it.
Fortunately, Reason staffer Ron Bailey later accepted the
scientific evidence and
belatedly came
around to the Church's position.
Tell me again who fails to keep up with scientific
developments?
|5.12.09 @ 8:49PM|#
Jester-
I am a retired Catholic. I was an altar boy and later a lectern. I
was exposed to many priests. Never, not once, did any priest get
out of line with me. Nor did I ever hear of any such activity
growing up in the 1970s and early 80s.
jester|5.12.09 @ 8:49PM|#
apologies to MadMax. You are absolved.
LibertyMike, please reexamine what you are saying. You are better
than that.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 8:53PM|#
jester,
Thank you for the benevolent sentiments you displayed in attempting
to absolve me.
The Pope
has already explained his stance on Bishop Williamson. As he
makes clear:
'As long as the Society [of St. Pius X - the schismatic association
in which Williamson is a leader] does not have a canonical status
in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries
in the Church. There needs to be a distinction, then, between the
disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the
doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved. In
order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions
are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church,
and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the
ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry
in the Church.'
|5.12.09 @ 8:54PM|#
Mad Max-
You can't tell me that you were not troubled by the manner in which
the Boston Globe covered the scandal? The MSM, in general?
jester|5.12.09 @ 8:57PM|#
libmike,
you did not have to divulge your unexciting altarboy career. I know
that the Catholic Church is a lot like Disneyland when it had A
through E tickets. And I am only picking on Catholicism because
this is the nature of the article.
But, your experience doesn't negate other experiences. As a fellow
libertarian you should be one who understands the culture of abuse
that comes with authoritarian rule.
peace.
|5.12.09 @ 9:02PM|#
Jester-
Agreed. I see. Of course, my experiences can not speak for every
other altar boy and such.
Its just the Atticus Finch/Clarence Darrow/Matthew Mconaughey (A
time to Kill) complex that I have.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:03PM|#
the Vatican Secretary of State has explained that
'the four Bishops [including Williamson], while relieved of the
excommunication, do not have a canonical function in the Church and
do not licitly exercise a ministry in her. . . .
'For future recognition of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X, the full
recognition of Vatican Council II and the Magisterium of Popes John
XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul, John Paul II, and of Benedict XVI
himself, is an indispensable condition. . . .
'The positions of Mons. Williamson on the Shoah are absolutely
unacceptable and are firmly rejected by the Holy Father . . .
'Bishop Williamson, for admission to an Episcopal function in the
Church, must publicly and unequivocally distance himself from his
positions concerning the Shoah, not known to the Holy Father at the
moment of the remission of the excommunication.'
jester|5.12.09 @ 9:05PM|#
Mad Max,
Your absolution was a personal one, human to human. You seemed to
allude to my bestowing greater forces. You are mistaken.
As for you and your Faith, you are in your element. From an outside
perspective, I am anti-dogmatic and therefore probably unlikely to
adhere to anything the Catholic Church promulgates.
I am cool with you. peace.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:06PM|#
'You can't tell me that you were not troubled by the manner in
which the Boston Globe covered the scandal? The MSM, in
general?'
It is in the nature of the media to attack the Church, just as it
is in the nature of serpents to be poisonous. The media still did a
useful function by exposing abuses - just as the Assyrians
performed a useful function be being the agent of God to punish
God's people. You don't have to be pro-Assyrian to acknowledge
that, and you don't have to be pro-media to acknowledge their role
as a scourge to chastize the Church for the bad behavior of too
many of her sons.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:08PM|#
jester,
Peace to you, too. I don't expect to convert you via a blog. You
could probably talk in person to Catholics you know to get more
information about our faith, if you're interested. Or you can check
out a local Catholic church, if (as is likely) there is one in your
neighborhood.
But we're totally Post-Vatican II now. There's no obligation.
jester|5.12.09 @ 9:11PM|#
'unequivocally distance himself from his positions concerning
the Shoah'
Very well done. That spells repentence. So now I agree with you.
Why did you take so long?
zoltan|5.12.09 @ 9:16PM|#
I am a retired Catholic. I was an altar boy and later a
lectern. I was exposed to many priests. Never, not once, did any
priest get out of line with me. Nor did I ever hear of any such
activity growing up in the 1970s and early 80s.
You were probably ugly then.
zoltan|5.12.09 @ 9:19PM|#
The Vatican was acknowledging the reality of global warming
in 2001, when Ron Bailey was denying it.
Fortunately, Reason staffer Ron Bailey later accepted the
scientific evidence and
belatedly came around to the Church's position.
Tell me again who fails to keep up with scientific
developments?
One person who's not even a research scientist compared to a Church
who accepted something before or after the majority of climate
scientists and regular scientists did? Not exactly the best a-ha
moment for you, buddy.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:20PM|#
'Why did you take so long?'
Because the media misrepresentations of the Church can get halfway
around the world while the truth is still putting on its
showlaces.
I'm not sure I'd call it 'repentance.' That's like 'have you
stopped beating your wife?'
To be sure, in its initial press releases on the issue, the Vatican
should have explained more clearly the status of Williamson and the
other SSPX people whose excommunications were lifted. The Pope's
press people should have known that the media is incredibly
ignorant and biased about Catholic matters, and unless they're
carefully spoon-fed, they will get the story wrong.
But it was *never* true that Williamson was absolved of all his
errors. The Vatican didn't even seem to know about Williamson's
Holocaust remarks. Even if it had known, lifting the
excommunication was a good idea - as the Pope put it, meeting the
schismatics of the Society of Saint Pius the X halfway and trying
to get them back into the Church's fold.
The reason this gesture was made to the four leaders of the SSPX is
not primarily because of concern for these leaders as individuals
(although as lost sheep, they cannot ever be excluded from the
Church's care), but on account of the followers, sincere and pious
people who aren't Nazis of any kind, but who have been misled into
this schism by Williamson and others in response to genuine abuses
in the Church.
It is primarily for the sake of these good people, the
rank-and-file members of SSPX, that these excommunications were
lifted. That seems to have escapted the attention of the media.
jester|5.12.09 @ 9:23PM|#
'just as the Assyrians performed a useful function be being the
agent of God to punish God's people'
MadMax, that is a very un-libertarian statement. Of course,
'Assyrians' refers to an autocratic government not a people per se.
But really, 'God's people' is anti-libertarian.
I perceive you as a faithful Christian who is probably very alone
in his community in terms of his political beliefs. I can see why
you are frustrated.
All my Catholic friends voted Obama. And they did it
faithfully!
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:24PM|#
'One person who's not even a research scientist compared to a
Church who accepted something before or after the majority of
climate scientists and regular scientists did? Not exactly the best
a-ha moment for you, buddy.'
You mean the Church was right *too soon,* before all the evidence
was in? Even if that were the case (which I don't admit), the same
could be said of Galileo, who didn't have all his scientific ducks
in a row when he propounded his heliocentrism. Yet we give Galileo
a pass for being right.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:24PM|#
Of course, Einstein would scoff at the idea that the universe is either earth-centered *or* heliocentric.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:26PM|#
'I perceive you as a faithful Christian who is probably very
alone in his community in terms of his political beliefs. I can see
why you are frustrated.
'All my Catholic friends voted Obama. And they did it
faithfully!'
There are millions of Catholics who would never *think* of voting
Democrat.
I have Catholic friends who almost certainly *did* vote for Obama.
I value their friendship highly, and I feel the very reverse of
'alone' with them.
jester|5.12.09 @ 9:31PM|#
Yes, I see you were wounded personally. that is going to happen here. But that is the beauty of this site. You can say anything, with abandon.
John Tagliaferro|5.12.09 @ 9:32PM|#
As rabbi David Dalin makes clear, the Pope's predecessor,
Pius XII, saved more Jews from Hitler's gas chambers than Reuven
Rivlin and the Reason Foundation put together.
Isn't that like an a+0=a in math?
John Tagliaferro|5.12.09 @ 9:34PM|#
Of course, Einstein would scoff at the idea that the
universe is either earth-centered *or* heliocentric.
As would Vatican astronomer Father Jose Gabriel Funes.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:36PM|#
'Yes, I see you were wounded personally.'
Didn't mean to suggest that. He-who-is-not-to-be-named, and who
left this site a while ago, said some wounding things, but he was
Catholic himself. As for the rest of you, I don't like all your
positions, but I don't feel *wounded* - that would be like
expressing surprise that water is wet. It's what you expect
trolling on a secular libertarian blog. So fire away!
jester|5.12.09 @ 9:36PM|#
BTW, Nicolas Copernicus, a very Catholic person, started the Heliocentric thing. He was Polish by the way, Mikolay Kopernik. And in the Vatican!
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:38PM|#
'Isn't that like an a+0=a in math?'
Yes, but a is considerably greater than 0 in this instance.
John Tagliaferro|5.12.09 @ 9:38PM|#
The Vatican was acknowledging the reality of global warming
in 2001, when Ron Bailey was denying it.
Now there is a perfect reason not to believe in the humans
occupying the Vatican.
John Tagliaferro|5.12.09 @ 9:40PM|#
Yes, but a is considerably greater than 0 in this
instance.
One of us may not be understanding the nuance of what I wrote. But
I am just arriving home from happy hour.
Just asking?|5.12.09 @ 9:41PM|#
Is it any surprise to see a neo-nazi holocaust denier, like Libertymike, in a thread like this?
jester|5.12.09 @ 9:45PM|#
So Pleased to Meet You, Mad Max
My Name is Jester. I understand Religion and its adherents. I don't
underestimate you; instead, I understand you.
I look fwd to future sparring.
cheers,
jester
John Tagliaferro|5.12.09 @ 9:45PM|#
Is it any surprise to see a neo-nazi holocaust denier, like
Libertymike, in a thread like this?
From all of my lurker years, the answer is no.
Genocide in Gaza.
There you go. Libertymike is filling in for MNG.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:48PM|#
'BTW, Nicolas Copernicus, a very Catholic person, started the
Heliocentric thing. He was Polish by the way, Mikolay Kopernik. And
in the Vatican!'
Which just goes to show that the Vatican is anti-science . . . wait
. . . no it doesn't.
Anyway, if you want to be freed from the stifling influence of
Papal astronomy, feel free to use this Julian date
converter to change dates in the superstitious Gregorian
Calendar to the proper date in the Julian Calendar, which the
Gregorian calendar replaced.
Not to plug my upcoming book, The Three Ecumenical Detectives, but
there's a character in there who sues to abolish the Gregorian
Calendar, since it was promulgated by a sixteenth-century Pope for
the avowed purpose of more correctly calculating the date of
Easter. A religious motive - a violation of the First
Amendment!
Here is the
Papal decree establishing the Gregorian calendar in the Church
- the U.S. and the vast majority of the world use that calendar
today. The calculations on which the Gregorian calendar were based
were done mainly by a Papal astronomer - a Jesuit, no less!
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:51PM|#
'Now there is a perfect reason not to believe in the humans
occupying the Vatican.'
Nor in Ron Bailey, I suppose.
Mad Max|5.12.09 @ 9:52PM|#
Yes, jester, I hope we shall meet again (twirls moustache), ha
ha ha.
Seriously, have a nice day.
BakedPenguin|5.12.09 @ 9:56PM|#
As for the Pope, you're all failing to answer the ultimate question: does he shit in the woods?
Only when he sees a bear.
John Tagliaferro|5.12.09 @ 10:05PM|#
Not to plug my upcoming book, The Three Ecumenical
Detectives, but there's a character in there who sues to abolish
the Gregorian Calendar
Hey man, Suki and I are always plugging our book (no offense to
your shyness Suki, but you ARE a major contributor). PL is
constantly plugging his 'blog, others too. Just look at the handle
links.
Your book sounds cool too! Have any wild sex in it?
John Tagliaferro|5.12.09 @ 10:06PM|#
Nor in Ron Bailey, I suppose.
I suspect he would burst into flames.
|5.12.09 @ 10:14PM|#
i have a picture of my grandfather who was conscripted into the
luftwaffe in 1943, he is in his uniform and wearing the nazi
armband. everyone in my family has cropped that picture to hide our
'nazi past.' i'm more ashamed of my family's reaction than i am of
his compulsory armband.
benedict grew up during the lowest point in german history, i doubt
he's going to forget that.
BakedPenguin|5.12.09 @ 10:14PM|#
Libertymike, you're full of shit. I know hate speech laws are
you're hobby horse, but you need to wake up to some salient
facts.
1) No one vaguely libertarian around here supports hate speech laws
anyway. There are dozens of fucking pages of
results if you search for "hate speech" on this site, and you won't
find any support from any of the writers, including two Jewish
writers, any very few of the commenters.
2) It's your fucking hobby horse. We don't agree
with them, but they are down the list of shit to change for nearly
all of us. Get over it.
3) Your provocateur act, if that's what it is, is wearing
thin. You make borderline Holocaust denial statements yourself, and
people obviously think you're a neo-Nazi. Here's a clue, if you
haven't gotten it yet - there are very few supporters around here
for a totalitarian government that started multiple wars and
murdered millions of people. The fact that they weren't communist
doesn't mean shit. The Holocaust and the Holodomor were nearly
equivalent.
4) Whatever sins the government of Israel has committed do not
mitigate #3. They are separate issues.
johnl|5.12.09 @ 10:29PM|#
B16 is a theologian not a politician. Here is a bit on one of his pet projects to simplify RCC cosmology: http://www.adoremus.org/0507Limbo.html
jester|5.12.09 @ 10:32PM|#
From Wiki, you stupid fuck, so read it:
Nicolaus Copernicus (19 February 1473 - 24 May 1543) was the first
astronomer to formulate a comprehensive heliocentric cosmology,
which displaced the Earth from the center of the universe.[1] His
epochal book, De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the
Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres), published in 1543 just
before he died, is often regarded as the starting point of modern
astronomy and the defining epiphany that began the Scientific
Revolution. His heliocentric model, with the sun at the center of
the universe, demonstrated that the observed motions of celestial
objects can be explained without putting the Earth at rest in the
center of the universe. His work stimulated further scientific
investigations, becoming a landmark in the history of modern
science that is now often referred to as the Copernican
Revolution.
"Among the great polymaths of the Renaissance, Copernicus was a
mathematician, astronomer, physician, classical scholar,
translator, artist,[2] Catholic cleric, jurist, governor, military
leader, diplomat and economist. Among his many responsibilities,
astronomy figured as little more than an avocation - yet it was in
that field that he made his mark upon the world."
This is a response to your Galileo bullshit.
Tacos mmm...|5.12.09 @ 10:47PM|#
Holy shit. Did Moynihan actually acquit someone of anti-Semitism? That has to be a first.
|5.12.09 @ 11:03PM|#
Enlighten me. I think of the Catholic Church as a dogmatic
religion. Orders come from on High.
The Catholic Church *is* a dogmatic religion, but it doesn't
proclaim dogmas about historic facts, other than those that are
found in scripture. Therefore, it doesn't excommunicate people for
being wrong about historic events.
Ergo, readmitting someone who went off the deep-end without
repentence(Or did he repent??? Need to know this) is
acceptance.
So in essence The Vatican is accepting these views.
In essence, these claims are what theologians refer to as
bullshit.
zoltan|5.12.09 @ 11:06PM|#
You mean the Church was right *too soon,* before all the
evidence was in? Even if that were the case (which I don't admit),
the same could be said of Galileo, who didn't have all his
scientific ducks in a row when he propounded his heliocentrism. Yet
we give Galileo a pass for being right.
Mad Max | May 12, 2009, 9:24pm | #
Of course, Einstein would scoff at the idea that the universe is
either earth-centered *or* heliocentric.
No, I'm not saying the Church figured out anything "too soon". I'm
saying you're making a ignorant comparison between a large,
authoritarian anti-science group and one person who works in the
field of science. The fact that the Church decided before one
person in the scientific field doesn't make them some kind of
avant-garde thinkers.
Of course, Galileo may not have "had all his ducks in a row". He
practically created the scientific method, so it wasn't exactly
pure accuracy in that regard. That doesn't mean house arrest and
forcing him to change his beliefs is somehow good or smart
retribution for that. Burning people at the stake whose science
scares you and clinging to sad Ptolemy and the theory of spheres is
a bit more ridiculous than believing something which turned out to
be true (in a relative sense, when you throw Einstein into it).
jester|5.12.09 @ 11:27PM|#
And Seamus, you are a bigot. A fucking bigot. What your purposes here becomes a mystery.
|5.13.09 @ 2:54AM|#
I am a retired Catholic. I was an altar boy and later a lectern. I was exposed to many priests. Never, not once, did any priest get out of line with me. Nor did I ever hear of any such activity growing up in the 1970s and early 80s.
I am a current driver. I have been driving for 16 years. I have
driven with tens if not hundreds of thousands of other driver.
Never, not once, have I been in a fatal car accident. Nor have I
ever personally witnessed a fatal car accident.
Clearly, fatal car accidents have never happened, or at least if
any did, they are so rare as to not be essentially nonexistent.
|5.13.09 @ 2:58AM|#
Jesus, that's an excessive number of typos even for me:
"...thousands of other drivers."
"...they are so rare as to not be essentially
nonexistent."
Mad Max|5.13.09 @ 3:18AM|#
Gosh, jester, I've never heard of this Nicholas Copernicus guy
before. Except about a thousand times.
'I don't underestimate you; instead, I understand you.'
No, I'm afraid not.
Clemens|5.13.09 @ 4:39AM|#
I think more worrying than his past is his relationship to the Vatican. Oh wait...
Elemenope|5.13.09 @ 4:47AM|#
Well, I got drunk, and this thread still doesn't make any
sense.
I'm stone sober (if a little sleep-deprived) and the cul-de-sacs
and accusations flying around totally confused me. About all I
gathered was that Galileo is not Copernicus, the Vatican still
employs house astronomers, and the Southern Poverty Law Center is
conspiring with Zionists and some human rights protesters to steal
my brain.
Sean|5.13.09 @ 9:38AM|#
The Vatican is the best business in the world.
Can we please stop tax-exempt status for churches please?
They are nothing more than organized crime.
Rice Bingham|5.13.09 @ 11:30AM|#
Wow. This is the gayest thread I've seen in a long time. The homoerotic tension is so thick you can scoop it up with a spoon and use to lube your ass.
|5.13.09 @ 3:51PM|#
And Seamus, you are a bigot. A fucking bigot. What your
purposes here becomes a mystery.
Wow. Guess you told me. In the face of such irrefutable logic,
delivered with such wit and elan, there's nothing left for me to do
except slink off with my tail between my legs.
Oh, wait, not.
Debra J.M. Smith|5.16.09 @ 6:09PM|#
It is so very inappropriate for a man, the Pope, who was once in Hitler's army to be over in Israel to begin with, much less telling them to be at peace with anyone. And considering the horrendously abusive history of the Roman Catholic Church, all the current day abuse included, he has some nerve going and trying to clean up Israel's back yard. I stand against the Catholic Church leaders and all that Catholicism stands for. I stand with Israel. … Debra J.M. Smith of www.InformingChristians.com
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