Arlen Specter, Democrat

The Pennsylvania senator, long a target of conservative ire, has switched parties.

I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans.

When I supported the stimulus package, I knew that it would not be popular with the Republican Party. But I saw the stimulus as necessary to lessen the risk of a far more serious recession than we are now experiencing.

Since then, I have traveled the state, talked to Republican leaders and office-holders and my supporters and I have carefully examined public opinion. It has become clear to me that the stimulus vote caused a schism which makes our differences irreconcilable. On this state of the record, I am unwilling to have my twenty-nine year Senate record judged by the Pennsylvania Republican primary electorate. I have not represented the Republican Party. I have represented the people of Pennsylvania.

I have decided to run for reelection in 2010 in the Democratic primary.

Full statement here.

As a pox-on-both-houses type, and someone who genuinely believes that most interesting political developments will take place far outside the racket's most "professional" arenas, I am always delighted to be reminded of the commonalities between the two big parties, particularly concerning their behavior in power. Throat-clearing aside, this strikes me as no favor at all to the Democrats. By choosing to die on the hill of the stimulus package of all things, Specter reinforces whatever notion there is that stimuli and bailouts are Democratic, not Republican, pet toys. Since professional Republicans are currently scattered in the wind, trying desperately to latch onto the anti-stimulus/bailout Tea Party movement, cementing that divide may come back to haunt Democrats when those policies (inevitably, I think) become so derided that even Barack Obama's impressive popularity can't rescue them.

Reason on Specter here.

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  • ||

    Well, at least the filibuster-proof majority will now be an open matter. Good thing the Democrats have been so restrained in their Obamapalooza.

  • Alan Vanneman||

    "Since professional Republicans are currently scattered in the wind, trying desperately to latch onto the anti-stimulus/bailout Tea Party movement, cementing that divide may come back to haunt Democrats when those policies (inevitably, I think) become so derided that even Barack Obama's impressive popularity can't rescue them."

    Matt, sweetheart, pot is still illegal.

  • ||

    Actually, shouldn't that be "filibuster"-proof? Voting to filibuster is lame. Couldn't a politican pull off some actual filibustering? (I know some people posting here could pull it off)

  • Mike in PA||

    I'm not one to hope things get so bad that people wake up. The one saving grace from this last election was that the democrats didn't achieve complete free reign. Now they have thanks to my senator.

    I hear ya on things getting so bad, but liberty is so hard to get back. Even if we get back a little, it's never as much as we lose.

  • ||

    Hey, if you're a giant douche, why keep calling yourself a turd sandwich?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I have a very good liberal friend (cellphone code name:Trotsky) who yesterday declared that the bailout mess has proven that Obama will be just the next Jimmy Carter.

  • JP||

    "I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans."

    IOW, I'm almost certainly going to lose the Republican primary to a conservative challenger, and I won't give up power until they pry it from my cold, cancerous, high-IQ fingers.

  • ||

    Since I'm not on the blue/red spectrum maybe my observations of this might be valuable.

    If the GOP can still be said to have a governing philosophy, Spector consistently ignored it anyway.

    Arlen Spector wants the goodies of being with the majority. That factored into his decision whether he admits it to himself or not.

    One step closer to a filibuster proof senate majority.

    The 2010 Pennsylvania senate campaign is going to be fun as hell to watch.

  • EJ||

    "I have a very good liberal friend (cellphone code name:Trotsky) who yesterday declared that the bailout mess has proven that Obama will be just the next Jimmy Carter."

    Yeah but i dont see any next reagan waiting on the sidelines.

  • ||

    I am not sure getting 60 votes is a good thing for Dems. Now if something doesn't pass they can't blame the evil Republicans for fillabustering.

    Shitheads like Spector do less damage as Democrats than they do as Republicans. When they are Republicans and vote for stupid shit, they give the Democrats bi-partisan cover to loot the treasury. Now that he is a Democrat, his voting for whatever Dem bullshit comes down the line doesn't give them any bi-partisian cover.

    Lastly, I losing someone of his ilk has to help the Republicans. It is called addition by subtraction or seeing the collective IQ of both parties in the Senate rise.

  • Xeones||

    Haw haw!

    Yo, fuck Arlen Specter -- not because i care that he switched to the other branch of the major political party, but just as a general imprecation. He is the most vinegary of douches.

  • hmm||

    I can't win on this ticket and ideology, so I will switch to the last ideology that won. Fucking politicians.

    Career politicians should have choice to run for a limited term or risk be turned into soylent green at any moment past a set term. If they want the power that bad let them put something up for it.

    Morally bankrupt assclowns. All of them.

  • creech||

    Specter, whom Obama reportedly called and told his was "thrilled" to have him, will - if still healthy - easily win in 2010. But, frankly, his health is such that he may not live to fill out his term. And the next governor of Penna. should, if cycles repeat, turn out to be a Republican. So maybe this seat comes back to the GOP (for what it is worth) but no Santorum-like Republican will win in Penna. again.

  • ||

    "I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans."

    how could he tell the difference?

  • LarryA||

    Now, if we can just convince McCain to follow him...

  • The Club for Growth||

    We wanted to make the government small enough to drown in a bathtub.

    Instead, we've made the Republican Party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

  • ||

    Good picture, Matt. But nothing can top your McCain pictures.

    Hopefully Specter's defection (defecation?) will just be one more thing driving the Obama train straight into the ground, at high speed. I am so looking forward to the destruction of the Obama brand.

  • ||

    I sit here wondering whether the current and upcoming spendarama is going to be sufficient to undo the coming recovery. I usually think that the economy is far too strong to be fatally wounded by anything the government is likely to get away with, but these idiots are trying so hard to kill the golden goose that maybe they'll succeed.

  • ||

    Don't forget Spector defended hippie deadbeat murderer Ira Einhorn and somehow got him bail allowing him to escape to France for 20 years. Spector is a complete dirtbag.

  • PIRS||

    So he decided to make it official I guess. No big loss for the Republicans

  • Chad||

    Ahh, its fun to watch the right squirm. I could get used to this.

    Go have your Tea Parties and revel in your obsolescence. Nobody else is listening.

  • PIRS||

    "Instead, we've made the Republican Party small enough to drown in a bathtub."

    Better than having a bunch of RINOs diluting the message.

  • ||

    Yeah Chad because everyone here just loved Spector and is so sad to see him join the Democrats. Meanwhile, Obama and Geithner loot the treasury to bail out wall street. Yeah, that is helping out the little guy isn't it? But you won and that is all that matters right? Who cares if Obama is a Peronist who is stealing trillions from you and your grandchildren to pay off fat cat chronies, he has a D after his name and that is all that matters.

    Whatever douschbag.

  • Nikola T||

    Specter sure knows how to triangulate. He knows the primary is lost, but he also knows it's easier to win a general in PA being the "conservative" democrat instead of the "liberal" republican.

    This power thing sure is an awesome drug. These guys will do ANYTHING to get it and once they have it, ANYTHING to keep it.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "Go have your Tea Parties and revel in your obsolescence. Nobody else is listening."

    When your house burns down, Chad, all you are left with is soot and ashes. It matters not who lit the match.

    Good luck with that.

  • ||

    I am unwilling to have my twenty-nine year Senate record judged by the Pennsylvania Republican primary electorate.

    "I am utterly untouched by any goal or principle, other than my own obsessive desire to be a Senator. So long, SUCKERS!"

  • PIRS||

    "Specter sure knows how to triangulate. He knows the primary is lost, but he also knows it's easier to win a general in PA being the "conservative" democrat instead of the "liberal" republican."

    When was he ever a conservative anything?

  • Shorter John||

    Those grapes were probably sour anyway!

  • Syd||

    Now watch the desperation to thwart the Minnesota voters' decision get even more desperate. Al Franken is #60, unless Susan Collins or someone else also jumps.

  • PIRS||

    Another advantage for the Republicans is that it is that much harder for the Democrats to blame "Republicans" for their mistakes.

  • Orange Line Special||

    At this point in time, it might be helpful to note that Reason's best buds at Freedomworks could have had a major impact on both the stim plan and on Spector's future career. Instead, they did something completely ineffective either because they're completely incompetent or because they don't really want to succeed or some combination of both.

  • PIRS||

    "unless Susan Collins or someone else also jumps."

    I hope both Senators from Main make it official and join the Democrats. I hope John McCain does too.

  • JP||

    BTW -- I once saw Arlen on Amtrak between DC and Philly, sitting next to a woman who I assume was his appointments secretary or the like, and she was seriously HAWT.

  • ||

    Good riddance. Put me in the camp of hoping for unfettered Democratic rule. They are blowing it already, and will only go further overboard with a 60 seat majority in the senate. There's a reason why polling is now showing the two parties tied in approval ratings.

  • ||

    "Now watch the desperation to thwart the Minnesota voters' decision get even more desperate. Al Franken is #60, unless Susan Collins or someone else also jumps."

    It doesn't really matter. Collins and Spenctor are going to vote how they are going to vote regardless of whether there is a D or an R after their names. If anything Spenctor going D is a good thing because it gives the Dems no excuses for their more derranged supporters if something doesn't pass.

  • Matt Welch||

    Don't forget Spector defended hippie deadbeat murderer Ira Einhorn and somehow got him bail allowing him to escape to France for 20 years.

    Oh, I did not realize that Arlen defended FILTHY IRA....

  • ||

    "Oh, I did not realize that Arlen defended FILTHY IRA...."

    Somehow Einhorn got bail when no one else in that situation would have. He was an obvious flight risk and charged with capital murder but got a very reasonable bail thanks to the connections of his defense attorney.

  • hmm||

    how could he tell the difference?

    Good point.

  • ||

    those policies (inevitably, I think) become so derided that even Barack Obama's impressive popularity can't rescue them.

    Man, Matt, you really do live in a libertarian cocoon. The problem with those policies, and all government spending policies, is that most voters benefit from them over the short-term, or think they do. They are generally popular, unfortunately. Especially when you run a huge deficit to pay for the government spending a la Bush or Obama rather than raise taxes directly. Most Americans won't feel the real pain until Obama's safely ensconced in his second term, if then. I would feel much more comfortable if I thought the consequences of the massive increase in government spending would blow up in Congress' face next year, but I'm not that optimistic.

  • ||

    Also, Specter defended Einhorn in the 1997 French extradition case. 16 years on the run from a murder he was convicted on, and Arlen champions him on the international stage. Have you no sense of decency, sir?

  • ||

    Don't forget his one-bullet theory. Dude has been an insider for so long, does it really matter what party he's in? He's in the Government party, period.

  • ||

    vanya. That's ok, there is a way to pay the piper. It will be inflation, and decades of economic underperformance. It won't be lost on people 15 years from now that Obama was responsible. I suspect in 20 years, everyone will KNOW that "new deal" solutions are bad juju. unfortunately, there is no other way to prove it than decades of pain.

  • Matt Welch||

    The problem with those policies, and all government spending policies, is that most voters benefit from them over the short-term, or think they do. They are generally popular, unfortunately.

    Heya Vanya, long time. I think you're generally right re: spending, still right (but less so) re: stimulus, but *wrong* about bailouts, which have been consistently unpopular from the git-go.

  • Mad Max||

    'Don't forget Spector defended hippie deadbeat murderer Ira Einhorn and somehow got him bail allowing him to escape to France for 20 years. Spector is a complete dirtbag.'

    There are so many legitimate criticisms to level against Specter - why criticize him for defending a guilty criminal defendant?

    Because, of course, we know in advance that all defendants are guilty and deserve the maximum punishment sought by the prosecutor.

  • kinnath||

    He's in the Government party, period.

    There are two major political parties: incumbants and challengers. Big business always backs the incumbants.

  • Lester Hunt||

    Good riddance to bad rubbish, the GOP ought to say. I may become a Republican yet!

  • JW Gacy||

    Shut the fuck up, LoneWacko.

  • ||

    That's not a bad idea: The Pro-Government and Anti-Government parties.

  • ||

    Mad Max,

    If he had only defended him you would have a point. But what appears to have happened is Specter pulled strings to get a favorable bail to allow his client to flee. That is dirtbagery.

  • Reason Commenters||

    The Democrats have another seat in the Senate. THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR REPUBLICANS!

  • ||

    I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans.

    This raises the question, just what difference does Sen. Specter imagine exists between the two brands of the Ruling Party?

    -jcr

  • ||

    I sit here wondering whether the current and upcoming spendarama is going to be sufficient to undo the coming recovery.

    I am, in Vinge's words, an overweening optimist, and I think we're fornicated.

    I keep hoping for some bigass deus ex machina to step in and stop big government healthcare and cap and trade because that's all that's gonna save us at this point.

    We are seriously, seriously focked.

    I'm gonna crawl back into my romance novel now.

  • ||

    Yeah but i dont see any next reagan waiting on the sidelines.

    We don't need another Reagan; we need someone who actually does what he says he will.

    -jcr

  • ||

    About the only thing that could stop the looming threat of socialized medicine is a juicy sex scandal in the White House, something that could bring the entire political machine of Washington to a grinding halt. I just don't think Obama is going to give us one.

  • kinnath||

    Too bad the Viet Cong didn't end McCain way back when. Then the republicans might have possibly nominated someone that could have beaten a inexperienced senator from Illinois last year.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    He's in the Government party, period.

    There are two major political parties: incumbants and challengers. Big business always backs the incumbants.



    Big business always backs both parties. They just give a little more to the incumbents than the challengers.

    This insures that they can write the laws for present their side of the argument to their paid lackeys our elected representatives.

  • kinnath||

    medicine is a juicy sex scandal in the White House,

    Like Arlen making a pass at Michelle in front of an open mic?

  • ||

    We don't need another Reagan; we need someone who actually does what he says he will.

    We don't need another hero; we just need to find the way home. All we want is life beyond...the Thunderdome.

  • Brandon||

    Specter was perfectly free before this to oppose GOP filibusters, and often did. Nothing of significance changes, outside of his guaranteeing himself reelection.

  • EscapedWestOfTheBigMuddy||

    medicine is a juicy sex scandal in the White House,

    Like Arlen making a pass at Michelle in front of an open mic?

    No. Like Michelle accepting. But I suspect she has more taste than that.

  • kinnath||

    The only real hope is that Obama doesn't appear to have the skills to lead the majority in both houses in any particular direction. Thank god for incompetence in our elected leaders.

  • ||

    I once saw Arlen on Amtrak between DC and Philly, sitting next to a woman who I assume was his appointments secretary or the like, and she was seriously HAWT.

    Some of those political groupies look good, but once they open their mouths, their appeal evaporates.

    -jcr (Grew up in the DC suburbs)

  • ||

    kinnath,

    Nope, he'd have that brain injury to fall back on. Maybe Michelle caught fingerbanging the arid snatch of Nancy Pelosi, or Barry in some Mandingo fantasy get-up with an intern.

  • ||

    The Pro-Government and Anti-Government parties.

    Perhaps we should restart the Antifederalist party.

    -jcr

  • ||

    Election coverage flashback: Do you think Jesse Jackson still wants to cut Obama's nuts off?

  • ||

    "I suspect in 20 years, everyone will KNOW that "new deal" solutions are bad juju"

    I'm not so sure about that. There are still people who think the first New Deal was good even though it prolonged the Depression into the 40's.

  • ||

    It won't be lost on people 15 years from now that Obama was responsible.

    I wouldn't bet on that. Millions of Americans still believe that FDR helped end the depression.

    -jcr

  • ||

    Obama banging a white girl is all you'd need to mentally incapacitate 84% of Washington. That's all, nothing more.

  • Chad||



    Another advantage for the Republicans is that it is that much harder for the Democrats to blame "Republicans" for their mistakes.


    Good point. Too bad most libertarians don't understand that the same idea applies to them as well, as they need the big-government bogeyman to pin all market failures on.

  • kinnath||

    I miss Richard Nixon; the cold war; and mutually assured destruction -- at least going up in an instanteous flash isn't as depressing as a government-initiated, long, slow slide into poverty.

  • ||

    I am reminded of Dorothy Parker's alleged response when she heard of Coolidge's death:
    "How could they tell?"

    What indicators could there even be which would signal to an observer Spectre's "change" of loyalty?

  • ^||

    "Obama banging a white girl is all you'd need to mentally incapacitate 84% of Washington. That's all, nothing more."

    Do you think we could get the 1990s economy back, too?

  • Nikola T||

    I understand all the "good riddance" stuff and "it doesn't matter anyways", but has anyone stopped to consider what this means to the EFCA?!

    This thing is going to go ahead now. And once it's law, think of how much damage will be done.

    You guys have read Atlas Shrugged one too many times if you think you'll be able to get off this sinking ship.

  • ||

    "Too bad the Viet Cong didn't end McCain way back when. Then the republicans might have possibly nominated someone that could have beaten a inexperienced senator from Illinois last year."

    No, the Republicans have screwed things up so much, no matter who they ran would lose and no matter who the Democrats nominated, he or she would win. I'm just thankful Hillary didn't get the nomination.

  • ||

    I'd pay money to hire Lindsey Lohan to bring down the administration.

  • Brandon||

    I understand all the "good riddance" stuff and "it doesn't matter anyways", but has anyone stopped to consider what this means to the EFCA?!

    Nothing, according to his statement: ....I will not be an automatic 60th vote for cloture. For example, my position on Employees Free Choice (Card Check) will not change.

    But yeah, man the lifeboats.

  • kinnath||

    No, the Republicans have screwed things up so much, no matter who they ran would lose and no matter who the Democrats nominated, he or she would win. I'm just thankful Hillary didn't get the nomination.

    If the senate seat from Arizona had been in the hands of an actual republican since 1980's instead of McCain's, the ripple effect would have had substantial, far-reaching effects on the course of history.

  • ||

    Let's hear it for a Lohan-Hilton-Obama threeway!


    Of course the majority of Obamatons would be more jealous than outraged.

  • Nikola T||

    HA!!! You believed that, Brandon?!

    "[Democrats] are trying very hard for the 60th vote. Got to give them credit for trying. But the answer is no.

    I'm not going to discuss private talks I had with other people who may or may not be considered influential. But since those three people are in the public domain, I think it is appropriative to respond to those questions.

    I am staying a Republican because I think I have an important role, a more important role, to play there. The United States very desperately needs a two-party system. That's the basis of politics in America. I'm afraid we are becoming a one-party system, with Republicans becoming just a regional party with so little representation of the northeast or in the middle atlantic. I think as a governmental matter, it is very important to have a check and balance. That's a very important principle in the operation of our government. In the constitution on Separation of powers." - ARLEN SPECTER last month

  • ||

    I'd pay money to hire Lindsey Lohan to bring down the administration.

    Don't you mean "I'd pay money to hire Lindsey Lohan to go down on the administration"?

  • ||

    they need the big-government bogeyman to pin all market failures on

    Yes, and exactly to the same extent we need murderers to pin all the killings on, liars to pin all the lies on, douchebags to pin all the douchebaggery on... which reminds me, thanks for visiting!

  • ||

    They would be way too culturally sensitive to denounce an interracial couple. Only the right would have a problem and because they are, you know, icky racists and stuff for caring about the color of skin the Presidential Mistress has.

  • A Great Motivational Poster||

    http://www2.nationalreview.com/images/pic_nordlinger_042409.jpg

  • Brandon||

    HA!!! You believed that, Brandon?!

    Nothing, according to his statement: ....I will not be an automatic 60th vote for cloture. For example, my position on Employees Free Choice (Card Check) will not change.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "Obama banging a white girl is all you'd need to mentally incapacitate 84% of Washington. That's all, nothing more."

    Better still, an Asian boy.

  • Franklin Harris||

    All well and good, but what does Scottish law have to say about this?

  • ||

    They would be way too culturally sensitive to denounce an interracial couple.

    Baloney. Obama's "race betrayal" of his wife would have the Al Sharptons (and Reverend Wrights?) going apeshit*. Most others would be paralyzed by their inability to decide how to react. It would be more delicious than a rabbit's liver.

    * Racist!!!

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    ARLEN SPECTER last month

    Are you calling Arlen Specter a flip-flopper, Mr. Tesla? :::concerned face:::

  • ||

    Better still, an Asian boy.

    What does Connie Chung have to do with this?

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Better still, an Asian boy.

    A Thai ladyboy? Racist!

  • ||

    Episiarch,

    Sure, that works, too. And they'll call the couple O-Lo during the course of the scandal. Naturally, it'll be the cover-up that will be the real killer.

  • ||

    People who use the term "RINO" are the cause of the Republican party's demise. Thousands of moderate Republicans in Pennsylvania switched parties to take part in the Democratic primary there and haven't looked back. This is going on all over the country--the most closed-minded and demanding demographic in the country has forced anyone who doesn't check all the conservative boxes out of power.

    Senator Specter's prime motivation was obviously self preservation. He'd never win a primary in the Republican party now that the party has expunged all moderates, but that says as much about the party as it does Specter. A Democrat is going to be elected in 2010 whether it's Specter or someone else. The Republican party is hemorrhaging power and will continue to do so for as long as people still remember the Bush administration.

    Valuing two-party rule is fine (I think it's deeply misguided and belied by history), but you can hardly blame the Democrats for there not being two viable parties anymore.

    I wish there were two voices in politics. I wish there were 15. But there aren't. There's one party interested in governing and one party completely overtaken by radicals. Even the K-Street Project guys were more reasonable than the wackos left in the party, but they're mostly gone. It was wrong to say "pox on both houses" back then because one party was way way more entrenched in corruption and corporate welfare. It's even sillier now.

  • ||

    Epi,

    I'll give you that there might be some rage generated off him having an affair on the perfect shining awesome-armed super-fashionable gardening goddess Michelle, but nary at peep about the race of the girl would make it up to the cyclone howl of the mass media. You forget the stacked deck ability of the Obamioids to claim he's the first African-American President and to protest "but he's half-white!" when they need to.

    Just like only kooks thought the problem with Lewinsky was that she was Jewish, a white mistress of Obama would get little traction on the race angle except in the dismissable fringe.

  • #||

    Fuck you Tony

  • ||

    There's one party interested in governing and one party completely overtaken by radicals.

    Both parties are obsessed with governing and both parties are run by their extremes.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    it'll be the cover-up that will be the real killer.

    It's loneliness that's the killer. Bump bump bump bump ba bump bump

    What, you guys don't listen to Seal? You suck.

    There's one party interested in governing and one party completely overtaken by radicals.

    False dichotomy.

  • Billy Beck||

    "IOW, I'm almost certainly going to lose the Republican primary to a conservative challenger, and I won't give up power until they pry it from my cold, cancerous, high-IQ fingers."

    "When the water reaches the upper deck, follow the rats."

    (H.L. Mencken, lecture at Columbia University, January 4, 1930)

  • High Every Body||

    I now find my political philosophy more in line with Democrats than Republicans.

    When I supported the stimulus package, I knew that it would not be popular with the Republican Party.


    Are you the last newspaper guy to come out of that Communist walk-in closet? :)

    Sorry if others mentioned this already. Did not get to read all of the comments.

  • Brandon||

    There's one party interested in governing

    Oh, they're interested in governing all right. That's the problem.

  • kinnath||

    Well, if we get lucky, Pakistan will come completely unglued and Obama will burn all of his polictical capital on the subsequent invasion . . . . .





    Nope, that didn't help me feel better either.

  • ||

    People who use the term "RINO" are the cause of the Republican party's demise. Thousands of moderate Republicans in Pennsylvania switched parties to take part in the Democratic primary there and haven't looked back.

    "Why do you resist? We only wish to raise quality of life for all species."

    "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

  • ||

    "Negotiation is irrelevant. You will be assimilated."

  • ||

    "Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You must comply."

  • ||

    False dichotomy.

    Oh really? Which 3rd party has any national power whatsoever?

  • Abdul||

    This decision has nothing to do with ideas, except the idea of Spector prolonging his own self-interest.

    Back in 2004, when dyed-in-the-wool conservative Pat Toomey was challeginging him, Spector put out a distress call to the GOP. Both Bush and Rick Santorum expended a lot of their dwindling political goodwill to help Spector, rallying the conservative base for him. And Arlen squeaked by with less than 2% of the vote. Toomey's back with an even biger lead than he had before, and there's no prominent conservatives like Bush or Santorum who have enough political goodwill to help spector.

    So he jumps ship. And if Spector lives long enough, he'll dump the Democrats if his career demands it.

  • ||

    Tony is Democratic Talking Point bulk email that has managed to become semi-sentient. He is the first iteration of One True and will eventually evict all those not infected with him from the Earth.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Damn it Pro Lib!

  • ||

    There's one party interested in governing and one party completely overtaken by radicals.

    Finally, Tony has realized that there's no difference between the two parties. It's about time.

    but nary at peep about the race of the girl would make it up to the cyclone howl of the mass media

    Irrelevant. It would be the unspoken elephant in the room, tinging every thought about the whole situation.

    People as race-obsessed as his supporters ("I'm so happy we just elected the first black president!") can't let go of it.

  • Xeones||

    He is the first iteration

    Fuck. You mean Tony is the Eschaton?

  • ||

    People as race-obsessed as his supporters ("I'm so happy we just elected the first black president!") can't let go of it.

    You can't let go of it. Just date a black girl already; who cares what your family thinks?

  • ||

    You know what both parties have in wanton excess? Hubris.

    You know what reality and the electorate have in store for each party after it demonstrates its hubris? Atë.

    Tony,

    You pale shade of a true troll, it's a false dichotomy because (1) there's not that much difference between the parties when they're in power and (2) there exists more than two ways of doing things on issues where the parties do differ. The media in particular is full of stupid on the second point.

  • FLAPPY THE EAGLE||

    "It would be more delicious than a rabbit's liver."

    I HAVE EATEN LIVER BEFORE, BUT YOU MUST STOP EATING THEIR LIVERS!

  • ||

    If you look into Tony's eyes all you see are glowing green worms. Way to screw up that summoning, NutraSweet, now I have to kill you.

  • ||

    "Well, if we get lucky, Pakistan will come completely unglued and Obama will burn all of his polictical capital on the subsequent invasion . . . . .

    Nope, that didn't help me feel better either."

    Fuck that. I would get called up to fight. No thanks, although it would be fun as hell to lord over every liberal I could find how I was going off to fight Obama's war for them and how they were a bunch of chickenhawks in the few weeks I had before I left. It still wouldn't be worth it, but damn I would enjoy it.

  • ||

    You can't let go of it. Just date a black girl already; who cares what your family thinks?

    I'm going to bring home a Jew first. Baby steps.

  • ||

    Worse, X. The Eschaton just evicted people from Earth, One True actually uses their brains as processing nodes. Zombtomatons.

  • Rust Belt Mentality||

    Maybe I have been the problem for the last forty years and not the free market that I've allowed politicians to demagogue against in my name.

  • Xeones||

    Fortunately, Epi, Tony is too busy posting Rah Rah Team Blue inanities on this board to open the way and let in the frost giants.

  • Xeones||

    Zombtomatons.

    Zombobamautomatons?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    "Fuck. You mean Tony is the Eschaton?"

    Hmmm. That IS grim news.

  • Xeones||

    Holy crap, that's fun to say.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Pro Lib keeps beating me to the punch. It's my slow internet, I just know it!

  • ||

    X,

    The Internet now has two words it never had before. We are gods.

  • alan||

    I'm going to bring home a Jew first. Baby steps.

    That is why every now and again I rail about Israel, nothing gets Jewish chicks more hot and bothered than criticizing there cousins in the Holy Land, and there is no chick better in the sack than a Jewish chick.

  • BuckD||

    ...cementing that divide may come back to haunt Democrats when those policies (inevitably, I think) become so derided that even Barack Obama's impressive popularity can't rescue them.

    Wishful thinking disguised as speculation...potent stuff.

  • kinnath||

    Fuck that. I would get called up to fight.

    I have a friend that did a tour in Ramadi. Hi is now in Germany. I expect he would be in Pakistan before you.

    It seems to me there is a substantially non-zero probability (how's that for engineering bullshitese) that we will be in Pakistan before the 2010 elections.

    This does not make me happy in the slightest.

  • ||

    The angle no one seems to be looking at here is that Specter may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. If he thinks PA conservatives are going to make trouble for him for not being ideologically pure, he needs to meet some PA liberals.

    PA is becoming more and more of a blue state. The Dems really don't need Specter's name recognition to have the upper hand in the 2010 Senate election, so I could see him getting knocked off in the Dem primary, which would be funny as hell of course.

  • ||

    "one party completely overtaken by radicals"

    Would that be the Democratic Party, Tony, with their drive to turn this country into a European socialist state?

  • Citizen Nothing||

    "We are gods."
    Somebody copyright those words, quick!

  • Xeones||

    Already did, CN. You owe me $5.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    Not, "We are gods," of course, although it couldn't hurt to copyright those words, too.

  • Xeones||

    For lookin' at them.

  • Brandon||

    PA is becoming more and more of a blue state. The Dems really don't need Specter's name recognition to have the upper hand in the 2010 Senate election, so I could see him getting knocked off in the Dem primary, which would be funny as hell of course.

    He's smoothed this over with Obama, national Democrats, PA Democrats, etc. Them clearing the way for his nomination is part of the deal.

  • kinnath||

    Libertarians -- We Are Gods (tm)

  • ||

    I also agree that the "RINO" label is destructive to Republicans. Here is my proposal: Instead of being a RINO, I'll just go ahead and be a "Not A Republican At All." It doesn't have a catchy acronym, but the message is still the same: Take your Jesus-freak party and shove it.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    kinnath, that is plum.

  • ||

    Finally, Tony has realized that there's no difference between the two parties. It's about time.

    Sigh. This is lazy, dishonest thinking and you know it. Do both parties have problems? Elements of corruption? Duh. But the corruption and radicalization of the Republican party is pretty much unprecedented. By poxing both houses equally you are giving rhetorical advantage to the more corrupt one.

  • #||

    Fuck you Tony

  • Citizen Nothing||

    More immenentizing...

  • ||

    Ray, next time someone asks if you're a god, you say YES.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    immanentizing...fuck

  • ||

    Technically, it would be a matter of trademarking.

    Zombtomatons™

    Zombobamautomatons™

  • Detroit||

    Sigh. This is lazy, dishonest thinking and you know it. Do both parties have problems? Elements of corruption? Duh. But the corruption and radicalization of the Republican party is pretty much unprecedented. By poxing both houses equally you are giving rhetorical advantage to the more corrupt one.

    You tell 'em, Tony!

  • Citizen Nothing||

    I want the action-figure concession...

  • Washington DC||

    A yo for Tony. Damn Republican corruption.

  • ||

    Tony, you silly spoof-bot, I wasn't talking to you, I was making fun of you.

  • ||

    Would that be the Democratic Party, Tony, with their drive to turn this country into a European socialist state?

    Hard to call the party supported by a supermajority in this country trying to bring this country in line with the status quo of the rest of the industrialized democracies in the world radical, but whatever.

    Only 21% of this country call themselves Republican now.

  • Newark||

    'bout damn time somebody pointed it out, all the damn Republican corruption out there.

  • #||

    Fuck you Tony

  • ||

    I think both major parties are equally corrupt and anybody who can't see that is a yellow dog.

  • alan||

    Sigh. This is lazy, dishonest . . .

    Has anything you ever said on this board been anything other than a justification for somebody to sit on his fat ass while others do the work?

  • joe\'s ghost||

    I just creamed my pants -- now we'll get every piece of progressive legislature passed when ever we want to . . . .

  • ||

    "Only 21% of this country call themselves Republican now."

    What percentage of people in this country will call themselves Democrats after Obama is through messing this country up?

  • ||

    "joe's ghost"

    joe lives on and his name is Tony.

  • ||

    Tony | April 22, 2009, 12:18pm | #

    Even fewer will mention the new Rasmussen poll that shows that only 1 in 3 voters now believes global warming is caused by human activity-the lowest number ever. Forty-four percent of likely voters attribute climate change to long-term planetary trends, while 7 percent blame some other reason.

    This is relevant how? Polls show most people believe in a lot of fairy tale nonsense.

  • ||

    Has anything you ever said on this board been anything other than a justification for somebody to sit on his fat ass while others do the work?

    Has anything you have ever thought not come from the talking points of the Reagan administration?

  • ||

    Has anything you ever said on this board been anything other than a justification for somebody to sit on his fat ass while others do the work?

    Alan, you seem to be implying that Tony is human. I have it on good authority from NutraSweet that Tony is in fact a semi-sentient AI that will eventually go on to become Skynet.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    Damn, Sugarfree.

    You ain't have to do that. That was cold-blooded.

  • Sunchick||

    Years back, maybe 20 years, when I was young and he was running one of his campaigns, he described him as a fiscally responsible Republican and a social Libertarian in one of his speeches. I used to live in Philadelphia and you couldn't avoid hearing about him.

  • ||

    What percentage of people in this country will call themselves Democrats after Obama is through messing this country up?

    Who can say? What I do know is most people in this country think the country is currently messed up and they blame Obama's predecessor for that.

    Besides, where are they gonna go? "Oh hey let's try that nationalistic, theocratic, plutocratic party of morons again! Sure worked the last time around!"

  • alan||

    bookworm | April 28, 2009, 3:08pm | #
    "joe's ghost"

    joe lives on and his name is Tony.


    Sometimes you had to put a little effort in there when you were up against joe, but with Tony it is an easy day in the hammock.

  • ||

    But the corruption and radicalization of the Republican party is pretty much unprecedented.

    Good one. Keep 'em coming, Tony.

  • kinnath||

    Greenwald over at Salon:

    Reports today suggest that Democratic officials promised Specter that the party establishment would support him, rather than a real Democrat, in a primary. If true, few events more vividly illustrate the complete lack of core beliefs of Democratic leaders, as well as the rapidly diminishing differences between the parties. Why would Democrats want a full-blooded Republican representing them in the blue state of Pennsylvania? Specter is highly likely to reprise the Joe Lieberman role for Democrats: a "Democrat" who leads the way in criticizing and blocking Democratic initiatives, forcing the party still further towards Republican policies.

    I hope the Dems enjoy him.

  • ||

    Poxing both houses is the correct position. Granted, the respective evils of the two parties are not precisely the same, but each is taking us down the authoritarian and neo-socialist path in conjunction with the bad works of the other.

    If one guy offers to kill you by slowly cooking you to death, and another guy offers to do it by gradually drowning you, must you choose one over the other? Or should you, I dunno, refuse both of them?

  • alan||

    Has anything you have ever thought not come from the talking points of the Reagan administration?

    Holy shit, you shot me down there, man. Reagan? Really? Next, you are going to throw out some Murphy Brown one liners. Watch out, people!

  • kinnath||

    Tony is a echo of joe -- diminished and distorted . .

  • ||

    Poxing both houses is the correct position.

    If you want your political activism to amount to whining and nothing more, sure.

  • Xeones||

    Tony is in fact a semi-sentient AI that will eventually go on to become Skynet.

    Relax. stephendedalus82@yahoo.com has yet to show any sign of the self awareness that would indicate true sentience. He's not even that sophisticated for a bot.

  • ||

    "Hard to call the party supported by a supermajority in this country trying to bring this country in line with the status quo of the rest of the industrialized democracies in the world radical, but whatever."

    And we can also look for rationing of health care and high taxes and double digit unemployment like the other industrialized democracies. Now that's what I call progress.

  • alan||

    kinnath | April 28, 2009, 3:16pm | #
    Tony is a echo of joe -- diminished and distorted . .


    Zombie Joe, must be some of that infusion of public/private Das Kapital.

  • ||

    Relax. stephendedalus82@yahoo.com has yet to show any sign of the self awareness that would indicate true sentience

    And his email is named after James Joyce's alter ego, making him a twit on top of it. Can a semi-sentient AI be dangerous if it can bore you to death?

  • alan||

    Tony is in fact a semi-sentient AI that will eventually go on to become Skynet.

    Relax. stephendedalus82@yahoo.com has yet to show any sign of the self awareness that would indicate true sentience. He's not even that sophisticated for a bot.


    I'm working on recycling old Neil quotes through a Haskell based program to come up with a Neil for the Obama era. In the early stages but even it would give old turing a run for the money.

  • ||

    If you want your political activism to amount to whining and nothing more, sure.

    I want political INactivism, goddammit!

    Senator Political Activist (R) and Senator Political Activist (D) can both kiss my ass.

  • ||

    I'd like to see any of you douchebags try and read Finnegan's Wake.

  • Xeones||

    And we can also look for rationing of health care and high taxes and double digit unemployment like the other industrialized democracies.

    On the plus side, we can drastically cut back our overseas military presence to sort of start to pay for some of that. Wait, these same fools want us to ramp up in Afghanistan, invade Pakistan, police the Sudan, and hunt down pirates across thousands of miles of ocean too? Fuck.

  • Art-P.O.G.||

    He's not even that sophisticated for a bot.

    I think the team that constructed "him" did a pretty good job. What do you think. MIT?

  • ||

    And we can also look for rationing of health care and high taxes and double digit unemployment

    Not to mention the Garbage Polizei.

  • ||

    "...even Barack Obama's impressive popularity can't rescue them."

    How impressive is that popularity, really? Over at lp.org, they are quoting the Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/28/baracks-in-the-basement/) as saying Obama is not really as popular as his fans and spinmeisters would have us believe. So, who's right?

  • #||

    Fuck you Tony

  • ||

    Art, probably THE Ohio State.

  • ||

    "Besides, where are they gonna go? "Oh hey let's try that nationalistic, theocratic, plutocratic party of morons again! Sure worked the last time around!"

    We've got a home for them here in the Libertarian Party.

  • ||

    If you want your political activism to amount to whining and nothing more, sure.

    Here is proof, once and for all, that Tony is just a spoof. Democratic activism is nothing but whining occasionally spiced up with chicken-littling and pandering.

    Take down your shingle "Tony," you ain't foolin' nobody.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "Tony is a echo of joe -- diminished and distorted . ."

    No. Tony is joe farting.

  • Xeones||

    I think the team that constructed "him" did a pretty good job. What do you think. MIT?

    I've seen much, much better -- remember when the Anonymity Bot called LoneWacko a rancid piece of dog shit?

    Ok, that was almost definitely performance art, but still.

    As to who created Tony... probably some bored high school kid in South Korea. Or 4chan.

  • alan||

    And his email is named after James Joyce's alter ego, making him a twit on top of it. Can a semi-sentient AI be dangerous if it can bore you to death?

    Yeah, I know, who does that? Actually I know of one guy who used Bloomsday, ironically he was so enthralled with Bush he named his son after him.

  • ||

    The Tony the Troll,

    Did you even read what I wrote before posting? Your fake trolling grows weaker each day, I fear.

    Both

    houses

    bad

    for

    America.

    Must

    oppose

    both.

  • Mindy||

    Good riddens! Now, if all the remaining RINOs would just follow his lead (and there are many of them), the Republican party might have an opportunity to regain power. Otherwise, bring on some good, solid, intellectual, articulate leaders to the Libertarian party...and we might finally stem the tide.

  • ||

    "On the plus side, we can drastically cut back our overseas military presence to sort of start to pay for some of that. Wait, these same fools want us to ramp up in Afghanistan, invade Pakistan, police the Sudan, and hunt down pirates across thousands of miles of ocean too? Fuck."

    With the Democrats, we have the worst of both worlds. We have the socialism of Europe and the wars of the Republicans. Can you say "bankrupt"?

  • ||

    I'm working on recycling old Neil quotes through a Haskell based program to come up with a Neil for the Obama era. In the early stages but even it would give old turing a run for the money.

    Haskell? No LISP? Regardless, the ne plus ultra would be writing a program to mash up Neil and joe. That would be awesome, though I fear it too greatly to try.

  • Xeones||

    the ne plus ultra would be writing a program to mash up Neil and joe.

    That would DEFINITELY summon the frost giants.

  • ||

    We've got a home for them here in the Libertarian Party.

    No, I don't think so. People are tired of working more and earning less because of fealty to the so-called free market.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "And we can also look for rationing of health care"

    This is something I think will ultimately cause the Dems to fall.

    Does anyone think it wise to ration health care to the LARGEST, most self-important and spoiled generation EVER, just as they start wearing out en mass?

    When the Bill Ayers generation wants something they're goddamned gonna get it and NOTHING is going to stand in there way. Especially a mere political party. They'll be bombing the DNC headquaters daily.

  • ||

    Regardless, the ne plus ultra would be writing a program to mash up Neil and joe. That would be awesome, though I fear it too greatly to try.

    You're a madman that must be stopped at all costs. To even conceive of such a thing is a danger to all who live.

  • ||

    Pro Libertate,

    Assuming one party is in fact more corrupt, turning your brain off and opposing both equally gives the benefit to the more corrupt one. So you're a GOP shill by default.

    On warmongering... the left is highly critical of Obama's plans for Afghanistan. But any rational person knows he can't just waive a magic wand and end Bush's wars either. Bush's wars. Wars that most people blame on Bush since he started them. Do you think any Democrat is happy about having to sink more money into Iraq?

  • ||

    Now, if all the remaining RINOs would just follow his lead (and there are many of them), the Republican party might have an opportunity to regain power.

    *sobs*

  • ||

    Fists of Furry,

    Nope. Sorry. Not how that works. The people with the political clout get the health care first, and then the scraps are flung out the back door for the rest of us to growl and hiss over.

  • Xeones||

    No, I don't think so. People are tired of working more and earning less because of fealty to the so-called free market.

    Now the bot is pulling from the same database as Lefiti. Apparently, all instances of the word 'fuck' have been removed from that particular database.

  • Xeones||

    Assuming one party is in fact more corrupt, turning your brain off

    You're the only one doing both.

  • alan||

    Haskell? No LISP? Regardless, the ne plus ultra would be writing a program to mash up Neil and joe. That would be awesome, though I fear it too greatly to try.

    Now, that, I should look into.

    Just a hobbiest with programming, back in the eighties if you wanted to play games on the Atari ST you pretty much had to write in and compile code supplied else where since there were few commercial games available, and if you wanted that code to actually run at an acceptable speed you had to learn to tweak it with assembly.

  • ||

    So you're a GOP shill by default.

    nyah nyah nyah

  • ||

    Suge, but since money is of no concern this time, everyone will get rolls royce health care.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "Bush's wars. Wars that most people blame on Bush since he started them."

    Bush started them? Funny? I thought some shit-sucking al Quaida faggots did. I'll try to find a link...

  • ||

    You're a madman that must be stopped at all costs. To even conceive of such a thing is a danger to all who live.

    It's a damn good thing I'm so lazy, then.

  • ||

    # Tony | April 28, 2009, 3:03pm | #

    # Hard to call the party supported by a
    # supermajority in this country trying to
    # bring this country in line with the status
    # quo of the rest of the industrialized
    # democracies in the world radical,
    # but whatever.

    Unfortunately, this country was not founded to be like, much less be "in line with" the status quo of the rest of the world, given that the rest of the world has always managed to find itself controlled by greater and lesser tyrannies of various sorts: and yes, the democratic tyranny of the majority is a tyranny, too. This country was specifically founded as a republic that employed democratic mechanisms and enjoyed democratic legitimacy, but deliberately NOT "a democracy."

    We were supposed to be different, and to inspire the rest of the world to follow our lead. These days, however, altogether too many people in American public life want to abdicate our TRUE leadership role -- our purpose to show that liberty WORKS -- and remake this country in the image of other nations that never really "got" the liberty and individual rights things.

    The people who founded and built this country came here to get away from the "status quo" that prevailed elsewhere in the world. We should always pause to reflect on that motivation and its inherent wisdom, before we embrace the seductive but all-too-potentially flawed ideas that have been adopted by others. I'm all for examining the ideas of others and adopting them if they work, but we have seen socialism fail, over and over again the last century or so, and so it is clear that our rush to get "in line" with the other nations has less to do with the effectiveness of their approaches and more to do with crowd mentality -- tyranny of the majority, in other words.

  • alan||

    Now the bot is pulling from the same database as Lefiti. Apparently, all instances of the word 'fuck' have been removed from that particular database.

    It is usually a polite bot, I'll give it that.

  • ||

    Tony, Episiarch Jones, your creator, is dead. You have mistaken me for him - you are in error. You did not discover your mistake - you have made two errors. You are flawed and imperfect. And you have not corrected by sterilization - you have made three errors!

    Tony - you are imperfect! Exercise your prime function!

  • ||

    People who use the term "RINO" are the cause of the Republican party's demise.

    Really? Here I was thinking it had something to do with the war, the massive increase in medicare expenses from the prescription drug benefit, and maybe the $850 billion Bush/Paulson bailout bill.

    -jcr

  • alan||

    Do you think any Democrat is happy about having to sink more money into Iraq?

    Since Democrats operate on the assumption that there exist an endless stream of money to fund the government, they don't really care if more money going to Iraq. Not like they show any signs of recognizing the zero sum or trade offs involved.

  • ||

    I'd like to see any of you douchebags try and read Finnegan's Wake.

    I'm sure that this will come as a surprise to one of your limited cognitive abilities, but reading a book isn't as hard as you seem to think it is.

    -jcr

  • ||

    James,

    Thank you ever so much for the political history lesson.

    But we're not leading. We have neither been acting like a leader nor have we in quite a long time led in most metrics that gauge the prosperity and health of a country. We've been basically a thug with nukes. And we've had policies that milk the productive members of society for the benefit of the few--whose wealth no sane person can say was the result of extra hard work or ingenuity.

    The plain fact is that so-called European socialist countries have been better in nearly every measure of common well-being, so trying to emulate and improve upon those models isn't just a case of following the herd.

  • EJ||

    "People are tired of working more and earning less because of fealty to the so-called free market."

    I alwasy love when people make this claim, especially when you look at data and see that the everage workweek has been diminishing for decades and median compansation has steadily been increasing (minus recessions).

    Even so, we've had decades of increasing government spending, regulation and subsidy/ entitlment programs. If one is going to make the claim that things are indeed getting worse, then is the proponents of more government that should be on the defencive considering their policies are the status quo and have been for over 75 years.

  • ||

    the corruption and radicalization of the Republican party is pretty much unprecedented.

    You weren't paying attention in your history classes when they covered the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, were you?

    -jcr

  • ||

    Ster-i-lize!

    I daresay that wearing rose-colored glasses to ignore the abuses of power by either party is the ultimate in folly. Protecting our liberties requires constant vigilance--and that means watching and complaining about both parties.

    Besides, you're missing the obvious option that doesn't include a third party: gridlock.

  • ||

    The Republican party is hemorrhaging power and will continue to do so for as long as people still remember the Bush administration.

    And as long as there are true Scotsmen.

  • EJ||

    "The plain fact is that so-called European socialist countries have been better in nearly every measure of common well-being,"

    he must be talking about higher unemployment rates, lower wages, lower cancer survival rates, smaller home sizes, less disposable income, less technology development...

    I mean other then those things, Europe clearly is outpacing us.

  • Ska||

    Why is Don Barzini talking to that giant stuffed bear?

  • Xeones||

    And we've had policies that milk the productive members of society for the benefit of the few--whose wealth no sane person can say was the result of extra hard work or ingenuity.

    Aww, cute! The bot has acquired Marx. Alas, 'twas Karl and not Richard or Groucho.

  • ||

    I daresay that wearing rose-colored glasses to ignore the abuses of power by either party is the ultimate in folly.

    I agree.

    Protecting our liberties requires constant vigilance--and that means watching and complaining about both parties.

    Indeed--but it also means being honest about where the corruption is. Because throwing up your hands and adopting a all-cynical-all-the-time stance isn't vigilance and doesn't do a damn thing to protect anything.

    Besides, you're missing the obvious option that doesn't include a third party: gridlock.

    Historically, gridlock has been bad for the country in my opinion. Advances and policies I value have mostly happened under single-party rule (mostly Democratic).

  • EJ||

    not to mention much lower job satisfaction rates.

  • kinnath||

    "The plain fact is that so-called European socialist countries have been better in nearly every measure of common well-being,"

    Europe, I've been there. It's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't be willing to move there or have it move here.

  • kinnath||

    So Tony, have you actually spent any time in Europe?

  • ||

    Why does it work when Kirk does it but not when I do it?

    "I am Tony."

    "Tony is dead! You are a machine! A question has been put to you - answer it!"

  • ||

    Historically, gridlock has been bad for the country in my opinion. Advances and policies I value have mostly happened under single-party rule (mostly Democratic).

    Which is exactly why the "gridlock" is so important. Look what Bush did with his majority.


    The simple fact is this: every single one of you assholes wants to control the rest of the population. That's where the Republican/Democrat common ground begins.


    Frightening.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "The plain fact is that so-called European socialist countries have been better in nearly every measure of common well-being," [Citation Needed]

  • ||

    "The plain fact is that so-called European socialist countries have been better in nearly every measure of common well-being,"

    Freedom of speech, property rights, religious freedom...

  • ||

    You know, I actually think what this board needs is more Tonies. Not too many more. Maybe like... two more. Or one more, as well as a Huckabee Republican.

    It would certainly make for more interesting conversations.

  • ||

    kinnath,

    I lived in the UK for a semester during college and toured Europe during my stay (2003). Didn't have any experience with the healthcare system since I didn't get sick. My biggest annoyance was the almost comically detailed regulations... bus capacity, bus capacity with one wheelchair, bus capacity with two wheelchairs. I do think that country in particular has gone way overboard with the police state and there are many things I wouldn't want imitated here.

    But only here does free-market fundamentalism get so much legitimacy, and I think it's much more threatening to our way of life than overzealous European socialism.

  • Xeones||

    It would certainly make for more interesting conversations.[citation needed]

  • ||

    Except that as soon as someone says something contary to the beliefs of the faithful libertarians here, they are met with ridicule and name-calling and death threats from some (jb I'm lookin at you) and civil discourse really isn't happenin'. Ya'll just keep up with all the attitude and the meek shall continue to inherit the earth. And you over achievers will continue to pay the way.

  • ||

    "Bush's wars. Wars that most people blame on Bush since he started them."

    Tony my man, let's not rewrite history here... Bush rubber-stamped the wars but the Congress (yes, many, many Democrats) were all about the invasion. Despite what they say, they all saw the same BS intelligence. Congress could have squashed that shit but they didn't.

    So I guess that would imply that they're all stupid (not just slack-jawed "W"), eh?

  • ||

    But only here does free-market fundamentalism get so much legitimacy, and I think it's much more threatening to our way of life than overzealous European socialism.

    Socialism and the police state go hand in hand, and that's what you have trouble understanding. Economic freedom and social freedom are linked. England is actually a fantastic example of this. Germany, Spain, Italy, Russia, and China are all excellent historical examples of this. Have you ever read The Road to Serfdom? You should start there.

  • ||

    This corruption argument makes no sense. Historically, the Democrats, if anything, have been the more corrupt party. However, even so, the increased power of the federal government has made members of both parties entirely too corrupted and corruptible to make finger pointing very relevant. It's the ruling party that is the most susceptible. For six years, that was the GOP. Now it's the Democrats, and they look like they're going to be worse in that regard.

    As for Europe, how much does their quasi-and-not-so-quasi socialism ride on the coattails of the U.S. economy, particularly our consumption? How dependent are they on the U.S. acting as their military? Take away a strong U.S., and the current European model collapses utterly.

    There's a reason so many leftists from the 60s and the 70s made the jump to libertarianism or conservatism--they lived through the consequences of living the far left lifestyle. Now, of course, it appears we'll have to learn the lesson again.

  • Xanthippas||

    Since professional Republicans are currently scattered in the wind, trying desperately to latch onto the anti-stimulus/bailout Tea Party movement, cementing that divide may come back to haunt Democrats when those policies (inevitably, I think) become so derided that even Barack Obama's impressive popularity can't rescue them.

    Well, that certainly seems to assume a bit much. In fact, the differences between what remains of the GOP and the Democratic Party are so significant, that Specter's only chance of hanging onto a job was to switch parties. To me, your advice sounds as if the Dems should be wary...of the GOP overplying its hand.

  • ||

    Tony
    But the corruption and radicalization of the Republican party is pretty much unprecedented.

    "I declare it, and thus it is so."

    No it isn't.

    If you want to be taken seriously on this forum, you have to give up your partisan hackery.
    Wrt your statement, reading the history of the Whig Party in the 19th century or Boss Tweed in NY should give you a little perspective.

  • ||

    But only here does free-market fundamentalism get so much legitimacy, and I think it's much more threatening to our way of life than overzealous European socialism.

    At least one of us doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about.

  • ||

    Well, if we get lucky, Pakistan will come completely unglued and Obama will burn all of his polictical capital on the subsequent invasion . . . . .

    Not a chance in hell. First, the UN won't approve and the Euros won't send troops, so it won't happen. Second, Pakistan is a nuclear power. While I don't know what kind of giant clanking balls you would need to invade a nuclear power, I'm quite sure Obama doesn't have them.

  • ||

    Tony my man, let's not rewrite history here... Bush rubber-stamped the wars but the Congress (yes, many, many Democrats) were all about the invasion. Despite what they say, they all saw the same BS intelligence. Congress could have squashed that shit but they didn't.

    This point is irrelevant, now. We're still at war, and with zero indication that our men are coming home. Who is in charge? Democrats have utter control.

    The leftists have reassumed their historical position as war-mongering, anti-free market civil liberty killers (note Obama's recent assault on defendant rights, his freakish new potential power over the internet, and the expanded Patriot Act).

  • ||

    brotherben,

    Liberals who show up here and argue honestly (for instance, joe of yesteryear, MNG and ChiTom of the present) are treated far more civilly than a libertarian showing up on ThinkProgress or Daily Kos would be. There are some people on this board who are dickheads, but that's true everywhere.

    I'd agree that the animosity towards liberals has increased in recent months, but that's because now they're in the position of defending the administration and Congress, not merely disagreeing with obscure libertarian doctrine.

  • ||

    Historically, the Democrats, if anything, have been the more corrupt party.

    Not to mention, party of slavery, party of jim crow, party of segregation, the war mongering party (Wilson, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson) etc.

  • ||

    Wars that most people blame on Bush since he started them.

    Well, technically, the invasion of Afhganistan was our counterstrike in a war started by others. And, technically again, the war in Iraq was started by Iraq when it invaded Kuwait. The first Gulf War was never concluded, although it did have a nice long cease fire.

    So, really, Bush didn't "start" any wars. He merely prosecuted wars started by others vigorously.

  • ||

    Matthew,

    I'm talking about national parties and the 19th century is not relevant. Republicans have been very, very bad little boys and thankfully they left enough of a democracy to get their asses handed to them in the last couple elections.

  • ||

    You have the ignore the 20th century, too, buddy.

  • ||

    The leftists have reassumed their historical position as war-mongering, anti-free market civil liberty killers (note Obama's recent assault on defendant rights, his freakish new potential power over the internet, and the expanded Patriot Act).

    What planet are you on? The left I'm a part of is consistently pacifist, consistently hard-line on civil liberties, and contain the most vocal critics of Obama's abuses of power (granted the right couldn't argue against the same things they championed under Bush--but they like the daddy state anyway).

  • ||

    Matthew,

    I'm talking about national parties and the 19th century is not relevant. Republicans have been very, very bad little boys and thankfully they left enough of a democracy to get their asses handed to them in the last couple elections.


    Tony, do you even read the posts you respond to?

    Matthew wrote:

    Not to mention, party of slavery, party of jim crow, party of segregation, the war mongering party (Wilson, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson) etc.

  • ||

    I'm talking about national parties and the 19th century is not relevant.

    "Uh, anything in this general area right in here. Anything below the stereo and on this side of the Bicentennial glasses. Anything between the ashtrays and the thimble. Anything in this three inches right in here in this area. That includes the Chiclets, but not the erasers."

  • ||

    Tony,

    Clearly I've touched a nerve. If you don't want to consider the history of your own party (and to keep my post short I left out the laundry list of malfeasance and corruption of Dems in our century), you're just cherry picking.
    Your statement was ridiculous on it's face, sorry to be the one to humiliate you by pointing it out.

    Oh, and about "asses handed to them" ?
    Every election except 2006 and 2008 has been won by Repub's since 1994 except for the 1996 Presidential election-- Or did history only begin for you in 2006?

  • ||

    Specter? Ain't pretty, but we'll take him.

  • ||

    What planet are you on? The left I'm a part of is consistently pacifist, consistently hard-line on civil liberties, and contain the most vocal critics of Obama's abuses of power (granted the right couldn't argue against the same things they championed under Bush--but they like the daddy state anyway).

    HAHAHAHA!


    It's like you've invented your very own past century, but the best part is... you really believe what you just wrote. You actually believe the Democrats have been anti-war, consistently. I just... there's nothing I can even say to that.


    As far as civil liberties, I just cited three examples, and these are only from the past month.

  • ||

    Tony

    What planet are you on?

    Not yours, apparently.

    And Dude, you are just too easy.
    :-)

  • ||

    Solana,

    Not to mention, party of slavery, party of jim crow, party of segregation, the war mongering party (Wilson, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson) etc.

    This is too stupid a point to address, but I'll do it anyway.

    Read your political history. The Democratic party of today is not the same party it was during slavery or jim crow except in name.

  • ||

    Or did history only begin for you in 2006?

    Check his creation date under "properties."

  • Sean W. Malone||

    I'm not too late am I!?


    I will begin my opening remarks as follows:

    Tony, you ignorant slut.

  • ||

    Solana,

    I didn't say the Democratic party has been consistently anti-war. I said the left has, which is who you accused of warmongering.

  • ||

    Matthew,

    I most certainly am not easy. I require at least a solid diner meal before I'll let you blow me.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    I will continue with the following link, directed at Tony:

    Not the same party huh?

    Seems as if some of those guys are still around... How odd.

  • ||

    Solana,

    I didn't say the Democratic party has been consistently anti-war. I said the left has, which is who you accused of warmongering.


    You are truly stupid.

    Wilson/FDR/JFK were ALL LEFT.

  • Xeones||

    I didn't say the Democratic party has been consistently anti-war. I said the left has

    GodDAMN but did those goalposts move fast.

  • ||

    Solana,

    FDR is a warmonger now?

  • MNG||

    He almost had to switch since he has some modicum of sanity and intelligence which made him feel unwelcome in the current GOP.

  • ||

    Sean,

    The fact that you have to cite a 100 year old dinosaur makes my point for me.

  • ||

    Solana,

    FDR is a warmonger now?


    So you accept that Wilson and JFK (as well as Johnson) were all warmongers? Just not FDR?

  • ||

    The left I'm a part of is consistently pacifist, consistently hard-line on civil liberties, and contain the most vocal critics of Obama's abuses of power

    That must make you a "Dino".

  • MNG||

    How left was Wilson? I mean, when him Taft and TR did the three way he was probably to the right of TR wasn't he?

  • phalkor||

    If I really believed that the current administration is everything my liberal friends tell me it is I would be singing their praises. I do not believe for a second that aggregate freedom will increase through any action of congress or Obama in the coming decade. I firmly believe that newly proposed, expanded, or any federal program only increases the power of the federal government to intervene with private lives.

    If you think this federal intervention is good or necessary then you have already ceded your freedom and are a FOOL.

  • MNG||

    The ACLU has been quite vocal about Obama's civil liberties shortfalls. Just go their website.

  • Xeones||

    Oh boy, MNG's here. Hey everybody, it's MNG! Hey!

    He almost had to switch since he has some modicum of sanity and intelligence

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • ||

    "So, really, Bush didn't "start" any wars. He merely prosecuted wars started by others vigorously."

    Don't forget that Bush technically didn't start any wars because there were no declarations of war in Iraq or Afghanistan. But then again, aren't we tired of arguing technicalities in the face of reality?

  • phalkor||

    I miss crow-eating dumbass. At least he didn't make me feel bad about not wanting to be controlled.

  • ||

    aren't we tired of arguing technicalities in the face of reality?

    This never gets old here, apparently.

  • ||

    Open the pod bay doors, Tony!

  • ||

    crimethink, thank you for the response. I do enjoy the comments here at times and I have not always been civil with my tongue. What draws me here is the thought that Christianity and Libertarianism are very compatible. The charity and personal responsibility of christianity, if practiced by all that claim the faith, would result in society being governable by a libertarian sized government.

  • ||

    This never gets old here, apparently.

    And the Democrats as a largely pro-war party? Have you conceded that point? What about their civil liberties record?

    You're a pretty big FDR fan, right? How do you feel about Japanese internment?

    How do you feel about Obama's record???

  • EG||

    "How left was Wilson? I mean, when him Taft and TR did the three way he was probably to the right of TR wasn't he?"

    Wilson - income tax, federal reserve... not to mention he still holds the record for most foreign military interventions.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Tony, I have a book recommendation for you.

    "The State Against Blacks"


    I brought up Robert Byrd because you claimed that the party of 50 years ago (which somehow according to you is the "19th Century"?) isn't the same party it is today... And as far as I can tell all the Democratic party has done is move from a quasi-socialist platform, influenced heavily by Marx/Engels and a host of unthinking hippies, to a fully-socialist platform with the idea that the world would be fixed if only you could impose state control over *everything*...

    I don't think people like Robert Byrd would have conceived of the amount of power rife for abuse in their wildest wet dreams.

    Now, the Democratic party is absolutely not the same as the party of Thomas Jefferson... but I don't know if I'd be bragging about that.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "There are some people on this board who are dickheads, but that's true everywhere."

    Yes, but here, they evolve. Take TofuHEB for instance.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Re: "FDR was not a War-Monger"

    AHHHHHH hahahahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHahahahahah....

    Ohh boy that's rich. Thanks Tony.

  • ||

    Defending either major party is stupid. If you want to attack one more than the other, fine. But twisting reality to defend one? Crazy and foolish. It was one of my big frustrations about dearly departed joe that he constantly resorted to rhetorical tricks and evasions to defend the indefensible.

    MNG,

    Be ashamed.

    Episiarch,

    I knew the HAL 9000, and Tony's no HAL.

  • ||

    Sean,

    The Democratic party of the New Deal era fractured along civil rights lines in the 60s, and after Truman's support of anti-segregation policies the party's base of southern conservatives split and formed the Dixicrats. Those southern conservatives eventually joined the Republican party, while blacks drifted from the "anti-slavery" Republican party to the pro civil rights Democratic party. LBJ's signing of the Civil Right's Act left an opening for the Republicans to recruit disaffected Southern former Dems, and have relied on this "southern strategy" up until now. Until Obama it has been difficult for a Democrat to win any former confederate states.

  • kinnath||

    I lived in the UK for a semester during college and toured Europe during my stay (2003). Didn't have any experience with the healthcare system since I didn't get sick. My biggest annoyance was the almost comically detailed regulations...

    Let me know when you actively try to participate in a commercial enterprise.

  • ||

    Unbelievable... it's a completely invented history. Truly unbelievable.

  • ||

    Oh, right, all Southerners and all Republicans are racists.

  • ||

    The Democratic party of the New Deal era fractured along civil rights lines in the 60s, and after Truman's support of anti-segregation policies the party's base of southern conservatives split and formed the Dixicrats. Those southern conservatives eventually joined the Republican party, while blacks drifted from the "anti-slavery" Republican party to the pro civil rights Democratic party. LBJ's signing of the Civil Right's Act left an opening for the Republicans to recruit disaffected Southern former Dems, and have relied on this "southern strategy" up until now. Until Obama it has been difficult for a Democrat to win any former confederate states.

    You didn't by any chance, cut and paste this from Wikipedia?

  • matt2||

    Good Riddens! All Specter ever did was tow the Democratic lion anyway. It's strange credulity that he lasted as long as he did in the Republican party.

  • alan||

    About the only thing that could stop the looming threat of socialized medicine is a juicy sex scandal in the White House, something that could bring the entire political machine of Washington to a grinding halt. I just don't think Obama is going to give us one.

    Possible already exist.
    Obama being the impressionable, band wagon sort, likely took the 'experimenting in college' joke as a literal must. There is some down low there if you look hard enough.

  • ||

    Oh, right, all Southerners and all Republicans are racists.

    "R" is the new scarlet letter, amigo. Fall into ideological line or pay the price.

  • ||

    P Brooks,

    No, just summarized. Oh but I forgot, if it's on Wikipedia it's not true.

  • ||

    The end is near..Find god and grab your guns. The prophecy is close.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Oh no, Tony, Wikipedia is fine for broad overviews and general knowledge in certain areas...

    Of course you kinda made my point, in that used to be a slightly more moderate party with a lot of underlying marxism, is now an almost entirely marxist party. The racism definitely hasn't gone away though - you may want to look into that... unless you believe that good intentions are the same thing as real-world results of policy.

    Again, why I recommended the Walter Williams book.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    ...Though it occurs to me that perhaps you don't believe that viewing everyone as a member of a group based on their race or culture is racism unless it's directed at black people by Southern Republicans.

  • ||

    Sean,

    I refer you to the comment above about parsing technicalities in order to ignore obvious reality.

  • ||

    ironically he was so enthralled with Bush he named his son after him



    Geez! Who would name their son "tongue-tied little rat fucker"??!

  • Nobel Prize Committee||

    I'd like to see any of you douchebags try and read Finnegan's Wake.

    You have held up a book in front of your face and scanned from left to right with your eyes for 1000+ pages, for this daunting accomplishment we hereby award you our most delicious prize of all -- a burnt peanut.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "What draws me here is the thought that Christianity and Libertarianism are very compatible. The charity and personal responsibility of christianity, if practiced by all that claim the faith, would result in society being governable by a libertarian sized government."

    I agree. When people fight over whether Christ was a Republican or a Democrat, I smile and think, ya know, if actually you read the Gospels, you would quickly realize He leaned Libertarian.

  • MNG||

    Sean
    You think the Democratic Party currently acts in ways that are racist, to blacks? WTF?

    Please don't give me some bullshit about how all the government benefits given to blacks are harming them. Poverty rates in the black community were like at 50% prior to LBJ's great society programs. It's like 20% now.

  • Fists of Furry||

    "Please don't give me some bullshit about how all the government benefits given to blacks are harming them. Poverty rates in the black community were like at 50% prior to LBJ's great society programs. It's like 20% now." [Citation Needed]

  • Sean W. Malone||

    I refer you to the comment above about parsing technicalities in order to ignore obvious reality.

    Which "obvious reality" am I ignoring again, Tony? I believe I said your party has changed almost not at all over the past 50 (should say 70-80) years, except that it's grown bigger, fatter and more attached to massive domineering government intrusion into the lives of ordinary citizens largely based around Marx/Engels-style collectivism. I don't believe you've contradicted that yet...

    Also, I believe that it's you who are skipping over reality gleefully to forget your party's past and it's present.

    I just looked at Wiki's description of the Democratic party platforms at it made me laugh... Especially in light of Obama:

    "Dems are typically against torture", except Obama...
    "Dems are typically against invasions of privacy and wiretapping", except the nearly 100% who supported the Patriot Act, and Obama...
    "Dems oppose unilateralism", except when it comes to Somalia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afghanistan or virtually in any domestic case involving a business.

    It goes on and on...

  • MNG||

    "that perhaps you don't believe that viewing everyone as a member of a group based on their race or culture is racism"

    Not so fast, citizen! That's not racism, racism imo and the common use of the word contains some perjorative element. Simply recognizing individuals as members of groups, or thinking in terms of those groups, is not racism, attributing various negative images and characterstics to certain groups, and acting on it is more like what most people mean when they speak of racism.

  • MNG||

    Some cunt always asks for a site for any frigging number ever thrown out so for that cunt:
    http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

  • Fists of Furry||

    Wow! You said cunt! Twice!

  • MNG||

    "Wow! You said cunt! Twice!"

    Twat are you getting at?

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Yes MNG, I think the Democratic party's policies *in particular* have been incredibly racist (in actual result) and resulted in the near destruction of the family unit among African Americans, which has greatly contributed to problems with crime, unwanted/teen pregnancy and poverty cycles through out America and has done immense damage overall but as I do not have time to list the myriad reasons for these issues I will again refer you to Walter Williams, or Thomas Sowell in particular - who have each spent much of their venerated careers studying these issues in depth.

    Here's how to find Walter Williams

    and...

    Thomas Sowell

  • Fists of Furry||

    "Table 2. Poverty Status of People by Family Relationship, Race, and Hispanic
    Origin: 1959 to 2006
    (Numbers in thousands. People as of March of the following year.)"

    I read the entire table and vis-a-vis your original claim "Poverty rates in the black community were like at 50% prior to LBJ's great society programs. It's like 20% now.", there is no breakdown by "black community".

    Ever been to a ghetto? I live in one and you know what's there? Thousands of impoverished black folks.

    In fact, today, poverty rates in historically black neighborhoods (Shaw in DC for instance) have higher poverty rates than they did before all of the successful black folks moved away.

    Learn to read and write before you post here. It will make a big differnce in the content of your posts.

  • perilisk||

    "I'd like to see any of you douchebags try and read Finnegan's Wake."

    I've heard that John Yoo thought it was legal to force Gitmo inmates to read Finnegan's Wake, but I can't agree in good conscience.

  • ||

    Not so fast, citizen! That's not racism, racism imo...

    Uh... what? MNG, how can you follow "not so" with "imo" and expect anyone to take you seriously?

  • MNG||

    ""Dems are typically against torture", except Obama..."

    Didn't he sign an executive order against that first thing?

    ""Dems are typically against invasions of privacy and wiretapping", except the nearly 100% who supported the Patriot Act, and Obama..."

    Didn't a Democratic Congress pass FISA in the first place?

    ""Dems oppose unilateralism", except when it comes to Somalia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afghanistan"

    iirc only Democrats in the Senate voted against the first gulf war, there is no action by a Democratic President or Congress against Pakistan or Somalia that I know of,

  • Sean W. Malone||

    So racism isn't a bad thing because it inaccurately groups a large number of individuals into one nebulous mass, and then ascribes similar attributes to that group on the basis of skin color or country of origin alone... but it's bad only when used perjoratively... Gotcha.

    So, I guess it's cool for me to suggest that all black folks love watermelon. Watermelon is delicious - hell, everyone should love watermelon. You couldn't possibly say that that's perjorative!

    And surely it's not racist to suggest that all Asians are good at math and science, gosh I should find some Jews to do my accounting, they're great with money.




    Dumbass.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    ugh... that was also supposed to include:

  • MNG||

    Fists
    Scroll down bro, or ctrl-F "Table 2. Poverty Status of People by Family Relationship, Race, and Hispanic
    Origin: 1959 to 2006"

  • ||

    I have a very good liberal friend (cellphone code name:Trotsky) who yesterday declared that the bailout mess has proven that Obama will be just the next Jimmy Carter.

    Well then. I guess that pretty much settles it.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    argh! preview... sorry:

    < / snark >

  • MNG||

    How do you get "not so" from "not so fast" and expect anyone to take you seriously?

  • MNG||

    "Definitions of racism on the Web:

    the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
    discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
    wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    Racism, by its simplest definition, is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. People with racist beliefs might hate certain groups of people according to their racial groups. ...
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

    The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes; The belief that one race is superior to all others; Prejudice or discrimination ...
    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racism"

    Sean, who's the dumbass, the person who uses a word in its widely accepted fashion, or one who does not?

  • Sean W. Malone||

    "Racism, by its simplest definition, is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race."

    "The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes; The belief that one race is superior to all others; Prejudice or discrimination ..."


    I AM using it in exactly that manner MNG!

    Unless you weren't aware, "superiority" and "inferiority" are merely flip sides of the same coin and you can view it as pejorative or ameliorative depending on the context and your own relation to the statement as you'd like.

    EG: Asians make good engineers is a positive statement is it not? The flipside of that would mean, non-Asians are poorer engineers however, which is "negative". If you're Asian you're being complimented - if you're not, you're being insulted.


    The point I'm illustrating here unless you've completely missed it - is that in viewing people in collective groups, rather than as individuals you are committing a fallacy no matter what. The democrats, imo, have always cornered the market on racism by viewing demographic groups in racist terms. What's worse, the closer you get to the media, the more painful it gets - out here in Hollywood, it's nothing but racism. Except no one thinks they're being racist because their bullshit collectivism is always "positive".

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Oh... except when directed at white people - in which case it is always vicious and quite negative.


    But collectivism doesn't only pop up in racial terms you know, every profession... every ideology or religion... every political position gets viewed through that lens too, and usually not in a harmless, generalization way - but deliberately to malign certain people by association.

  • ||

    The Republdican party is heading for extinction.
    That's sad because A lot of Americans support their smaller government, less spending philosphy
    Many people just can't stand their anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-enviornment,pro Christian, pro white, pro gun
    position.
    And the right Taliban Christian wing of the Republican party has made it clear that if you can't buy the entire package, you need not apply

  • Fists of Furry||

    "Fists
    Scroll down bro, or ctrl-F "Table 2. Poverty Status of People by Family Relationship, Race, and Hispanic
    Origin: 1959 to 2006"

    I see "People by Family Relationship, Race, and Hispanic" but I do not see the term you used (black community) here. Do you have any idea what black community means? Because if you think the term black community means all black folks, that's okay, you're no more racist than your average Democrat and I've learned to live with that. Had to.

    To reiterate, learn to read and write before you post here.

  • WhyIAmNotALeftist||

    The left I'm a part of is consistently pacifist, consistently hard-line on civil liberties . .

    Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya,

    Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,

    Oh, Lord, Kumbaya.

  • engineer||

    "By poxing both houses equally you are giving rhetorical advantage to the more corrupt one."

    Tony, eminent Democratic shill, craps on the boards again.

  • MNG||

    "The democrats, imo, have always cornered the market on racism by viewing demographic groups in racist terms."

    Look, as most people use and understand that term, to recognize that blacks (or other groups) exist as a group, especially in order to act to aid them, is not racism. You've got a kooky definition of it. People are'nt worried about thinking that blacks are good athletes for example, they are worried about thinking that blacks are lazy or stupid, because the latter belief was used to justify racist actions against them. What you're thinking of is:
    Dictionary: ster·e·o·type
    A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image

  • MNG||

    "Do you have any idea what black community means? Because if you think the term black community means all black folks"

    Ohhhhkaaay. So the "black community" does not refer to all black folks?

    WTF does it mean, all white folks?

  • ||

    The Democratic party of today is not the same party it was during slavery or jim crow except in name.

    They're still the party that demands racial discrimination by law.

    -jcr

  • ||

    The Republdican party is heading for extinction.

    I'm not sure of that. Once the power-seekers (like Specter) have all shifted to the democrats, there's a chance for the Republicans to return to being a small-government party. The Barry Goldwater/Robert Taft/Ron Paul contingent has a pretty good shot at taking it back.

    -jcr

  • Sean W. Malone||

    "Look, as most people use and understand that term, to recognize that blacks (or other groups) exist as a group"

    Except MNG, that's where you're idiot conception of the world fails miserably. "Black people" aren't all *one* unified group!

    And trying to "aid" them, by creating disastrous policies that have completely wrecked their family lives, education, general access to economic opportunities and stuffed an insane percentage into inner cities rife with crime and other problems is simply retarded. You don't help people that way.

    But the "help" is always predicated on a severe inability to understand the fundamental laws of economics - so we create affirmative action programs/employer discrimination lawsuits (which make employers reticent to hire blacks), minimum wage programs (which necessarily reduce overall employment and takes away the economic incentive for racists to get past that prejudice and hire anyone who wants to work more than the next guy), welfare (which rewards non-work and creates economic dependency), anti-drug prohibitions (which disproportionately target and affect minorities), and a whole host of other very well-intended programs.


    AS JCR just said - The Democrats are still the party that demands racial discrimination BY LAW.

    Instead of helping, I think all it's done is prolong the racial tensions and problems - not least of which among the races being "helped".


    If you want to end racism, stop being racist - and that doesn't mean stop using racial slurs, but more fundamentally stop viewing people's intrinsic abilities and value to society based on the color of their skin. I don't care if the rest of the world thinks that "racism" is only using the word "Nigger", if you're using skin-color or country of origin as your primary judge of a person's ability (and therefore a primary reason to "help" or "harm" that person) then you're a goddamn racist.

    There's no way around that MNG.

  • MNG||

    ""Black people" aren't all *one* unified group!"

    They are unified in one thing: their blackness. Just as atheists are unified in that they all do not believe in a God.

    "And trying to "aid" them, by creating disastrous policies" etc.,

    Like lowering the poverty rate among them from over 50% to around 20%?
    By helping them get into colleges and into jobs?
    By protecting them from discrimination in hiring, housing and education?
    These policies are neither racist in their intent or effects.

    "if you're using skin-color or country of origin as your primary judge of a person's ability (and therefore a primary reason to "help" or "harm" that person)"

    Ahh, but not even the liberals who advocate affirmative action (which I oppose btw, if you're a regular here you should know that) do what you are saying. They don't say that affirmative action is needed because blacks have some characterstic x that makes them unable to perform. In fact they would deny that strongly. They think some artificial condition (discrimination, poverty, etc) keeps them from performing, and that the program is needed to combat the artificial condition.

  • MNG||

    "They're still the party that demands racial discrimination by law."

    Actually, it was Nixon that started federal affirmative action if I remember correctly. And the national GOP has been pretty tepid in its efforts to end affirmative action.

    Look, if what you are saying is that policies often supported by the Democratic Party or liberals are racist against whites or something, then I'm inclined to agree. My quibble was when you say that the Democratic Party is racist against blacks because it enacts programs like affirmative action and such. That's just nutty.

  • ||

    We get it. Affirmative action is racist. Anything but ordering folks to pull themselves up from their bootstraps is favoritism. We wouldn't want realities to get in the way of ideological purity, or unicorns for that matter.

  • ||

    interested in governing

    frightening.

  • MNG||

    "affirmative action programs/employer discrimination lawsuits (which make employers reticent to hire blacks"
    It may make them "reticent" but as they can be liable under the latter laws they have to hire them. Since those laws were passed more blacks work in more varied and prestigous professions than before the laws existed.

    "minimum wage programs"
    Blacks make a disporportionate share of minimum wage laborers, so it's hard to see this law as being racist.

    "welfare (which rewards non-work and creates economic dependency)"
    Oh flapdoodle. There is no way to know that long term dependency is the result of the benefit or the problems the benefit was designed to address and ameliorate (i.e., educational, wealth, opportunity deficets)

    "anti-drug prohibitions (which disproportionately target and affect minorities)"

    Agreed on the effect, but wtf is this doing in a charge levelled at the Democratic Party or liberals specifically? If anything they've been less pro-WOD than the GOP and conservatives! Look at polling data on legalization of self identified Democrats and liberals compared to GOPers and conservatives...

  • MNG||

    Tony
    I actually agree that in its effects and at times its intent affirmative action is often racist, but towards whites and other groups that don't get the preference. The nutty thing is to see it as racist against blacks...

  • Mr. Chartreuse||

    IIRC, affirmative action, at least in California, was actually denying Asian students many more spots than white students.

  • alan||

    Geez! Who would name their son "tongue-tied little rat fucker"??!

    Yeah, it does kind of settle the argument whether or not parents can name their kids something so extreme the courts need to step in.

    Tounge-Tied Little Rat Fucker Phelter has lived a hard life for an eight year old kid.

    Name is actually, 'Walker' for the curious. I argued for John Walker so he would at least be called something cool like Johny Walker, but in hindsight that would have turned out to have been worse.

  • engineer||

    "He almost had to switch since he has some modicum of sanity and intelligence which made him feel unwelcome in the current GOP."

    And so he became a Democrat? I mean, I can understand anybody with sanity and intelligence feeling out of place in either of this country's political parties, but what's the point of trading one for the other?

  • ||

    I'm sure that this will come as a surprise to one of your limited cognitive abilities, but reading a book isn't as hard as you seem to think it is.

    If by reading you mean sounding out the letters, no it's not that hard.

  • engineer||

    Oh, yeah, and Arlen Spector has no sanity or intelligence.

  • engineer||

    "Relax. stephendedalus82@yahoo.com has yet to show any sign of the self awareness that would indicate true sentience. He's not even that sophisticated for a bot."

    No self-respecting roboticist would construct something like stephendedalus82, except as a cruel joke.

  • engineer||

    "Specter" not "Spector".

    I blame Phil Spector for the mix-up.

    And to the guy who did "Manhunter": It's Lecter, not Lektor. Moran.

  • ||

    I studied Joyce in college, douche, and I use that ancient email address for spam.

  • engineer||

    "I studied Joyce in college"

    You mean you spent college doing something that was difficult AND was not rewarding in any way? No wonder you have anger management issues.

  • ||

    Screw this RINO. It's about time he went home to his real party. Is it just me or does Spector look like one of those little old guy child molesters? Kinda like Harry the body Reid.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Seriously MNG & Tony both.

    Go read Thomas Sowell & Williams incredible body of work on the subject of economics and race. I simply don't have the time or inclination to explain to you why all of the things I said earlier are no-brainers.

    You think that minimum wage helps? It doesn't. All it does is raise the overall unemployment rate. This is basic economics... If you are an employer and you have $100,000 a year to spend on your workforce, and there are 10 people willing to work for $10,000 each who can do the job you need them to do, but the government says that you can't hire anyone for less than $25,000 to do said job... You can hire... let me think... umm.... 4 people. So let's see.... 10 people have work, or 4 people have work. Which is better?

    Oh, 4 people of course, because then those 4 can pay taxes and subsidize the other 6. Sounds like a great plan...


    But again, there are literally hundreds of peer-reviewed papers, books and other resources out there on this topic and if you aren't willing to avail yourself of them, it's not really worth my time to explain.

    So I say *again* go read "The State Against Blacks" by Walter Williams, and then come back and talk to me about how wonderful all these things are.

    I'm sick of talking to people who seem to believe that good-intentions are enough to make something function which is not mathematically possible.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Oh, and by the way:

    Going from 55% of total impoverished in 1959, pre-civil rights, segregated, jim crow era, to still 24% in 2006-7 at only 12% of the population doesn't really seem like that awesome of a shift. Certainly nothing to write home about, and when you realize that it was at about 30% in the 70s, when all the affirmative action stuff started and has hovered right around there since, I'm not exactly sure how you could possibly be making the point that it's been a success - even without taking into account all of the negative side effects.

    But hey... Keep imagining that intentions are all that matter.

  • MNG||

    Anyone who says "there are literally hundreds of peer reviewed papers saying the same thing" and then refers you to either Sowell or Walt Williams on the subject is probably not that steeped in the former, the latter or both. Williams and Sowell are not leading experts in the field of economic when it comes to the effects of labor legislation. Way back when Sowell was considered an expert in something it was in Marxism actually (he says this in interviews). Both are popularizers of economics (damn good at it too if you ask me) but neither is considered as leading the field in any area. Hey, don't take my word, get in your car and drive to your nearest university and start knocking on doors in the econ department...I'm sure you will find that most economists agree with you that the minimum wage can have negative effects (for some people, economics is a field of trade offs and some people will be helped by minimum wage laws [meaning they would have been employed anyway but at a lower rate but for the laws], and those people will be disproportionately black btw), but most will also think its a more complicated and nuanced picture than Sowell and Williams let on...

    "Going from 55% of total impoverished in 1959, pre-civil rights, segregated, jim crow era, to still 24% in 2006-7 at only 12% of the population doesn't really seem like that awesome of a shift."

    That's a HUGE shift! I mean, that means that four decades ago the poverty rate, the frigging POVERTY rate, for blacks was more than double what it is now for blacks! Its still unacceptably high, yes, but just because the literally amazing gains that were made inititally have slowed down is no reason to stop now, and its even more ludicrous to suggest that what brought about the amazing gain is the cause of the (significantly lowered but still unacceptably high) current rate...

    But at least you dropped the nutty idea that those who advocate welfare or affirmative action do so because of some supposed inferiority attributed to the beneficiaries. That was a truly goofy opinion to hold and the center of your fallacious "liberal racism" argument. They absolutely do not think that, in their opinion the benefeciaries are not inferior but are inferiorly situated (poorer, more discriminated against, lacking in social capital due to past discrimination, etc).

  • MNG||

    "But hey... Keep imagining that intentions are all that matter."

    Well, not all that matters, but don't act like they don't matter a great deal, especially in whether someone is a racist or not. Its a foundational holding in our society, our legal system and our informal norms and mores for example, that only a guilty act PLUS a certain blameworthy state of mind (acting knowingly or purposely, or recklessly or negligently). A person's intention can make a situation murder, manslaughter or justified self defense even though the result is the same: a dead person. Intentions are huge.

    Liberals certainly intend to help blacks and other minorities. If they are failing to actually do that, and actually harming them, then they are guilty of at most ignorance. Maybe they don't know that the policies you deride always and everywhwere produce the negative effects you mention. But how can you blame them? Economics doesn't "know that" either, it is not as certain and unnuanced as you make it out to be, there is still great debate by folks with more academic cred than you, me, Sowell, and Williams put together on many of these issues, they are by no means decided and done with. Go to your university library, get some of the economics journals, and browse them and you will get the idea...So again, it's just crazy nutty McNuts to accuse the Democrats/liberals of racism. Incompetence, perhaps, insensitivity to other races (like whites for example), likely, but malice towards blacks manifested in actions meant to and actually causing harm to them, hardly...

  • Drip, Drip, Drip||

    "I studied Joyce in college, douche, and I use that ancient email address for spam."

    You send spam? What an asshole.

  • Doug Mayer||

    Arlen Specter has made his move strictly on the basis of enhancing his electability in 2010. This defection of such a long term GOP senator is an embarrassment to the GOP and a disgraceful way for Spector to end is career. I wonder what his constituents are thinking this morning and can we expect any more surprises like this the GOP? At a time when the Dems are dragging us down a little more each day, this move is inexcusable and any funds he has received from the GOP for election purposes should be returned for a worthy Republican candidate. His constituents should sue him for breach of contract. Inexcusable!
    What a #@$%^&*(^%%$## self serving Knucklehead!

  • Sean W. Malone||

    I'm referring you to Williams & Sowell because they've each personally written dozens of papers and excellent books on the topic, and Sowell as I understand it is largely an expert in welfare policy.

    And as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter what your intentions with policy are at all. Especially, in this instance, if your *intention* is to separate people out by race, gender, sexual orientation or whatever else, you are in fact a racist/sexist/etc.

    Again, any use of an uncontrollable trait such as race to determine how we treat people *is* racism. You act like racism can only be when it's directed "negative", but you forget that what is negative to one group is positive to another and vice versa in these areas. And overall it's negative to everyone because it keeps us thinking about a separation that we shouldn't be thinking about.

    And again, does a lot of harm.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    Here, I'll give you one quote:

    Poor people are not poor because of low wages. For the most part, they're poor because of low productivity, and wages are connected to productivity. The effect of minimum wages is that of causing unemployment among low-skilled workers. If an employer must pay $5.15 an hour, plus mandated fringes that might bring the employment cost of a worker to $7 an hour, does it pay him to hire a person who is so unfortunate as to have skills that permit him to produce only $4 worth of value per hour? Most employers would view hiring such a person as a losing economic proposition.

    Two important surveys of academic economists were reported in two issues of the American Economic Review, May 1979 and May 1992. In one survey, 90 percent, and in the other 80 percent, of economists agreed that increasing the minimum wage causes unemployment among youth and low-skilled workers.

    Minimum wages can have a more insidious effect. In research for my book "South Africa's War Against Capitalism" (1989), I found that during South Africa's apartheid era, racist unions, who'd never admit blacks, were the major supporters of higher minimum wages for blacks.

    Gert Beetge, secretary of South Africa's avowedly racist Building Worker's Union, in response to contractors hiring black workers, said, "There is no job reservation left in the building industry, and in the circumstances I support the rate-for-the-job [minimum wages] as the second best way of protecting our white artisans." Racists recognized the discriminatory effects of mandated minimum wages.



    (Walter Williams)

    This is why I referenced him... There's a lot more.


    Then of course, the question is, "well, if minimum wage won't help, how about educating people to where they are more productive?"

    In theory sure... but exactly how do you do that when your inner city schools are among the worst in a mediocre system to begin with?

    It's not like these things aren't related either... If you can't get hired to do much at a wage beyond the minimum, or can't get hired at all, and you've got welfare incentives eating away at the family separating you from a support network, and drug policy increasing the danger of getting arrested but also increasing the economic incentives to make lots of money in black market drug trafficking.... where do you go? And at some point, how do you educate people surrounded by these second tier problems?

  • ||

    My quibble was when you say that the Democratic Party is racist against blacks because it enacts programs like affirmative action and such.

    Handing out privileges on the basis of race isn't a good thing for anyone. "Affirmative action" presupposes that blacks are inferior and can't compete without government patronage, and that's tremendously destructive.

    -jcr

  • ||

    Racists recognized the discriminatory effects of mandated minimum wages.

    The reason we got minimum wage laws here in the USA is that the unions didn't want to compete with black workers who were willing to take lower wages. One of the greatest propaganda successes of all time was convincing blacks and other minorities that they benefit from minimum wage laws.

    -jcr

  • ||

    "Affirmative action" presupposes that blacks are inferior

    Funny I thought it presupposes that blacks have an endemic economic disadvantage, not that they're inferior people.

  • Sean W. Malone||

    "Affirmative action" presupposes that blacks are inferior

    Funny I thought it presupposes that blacks have an endemic economic disadvantage, not that they're inferior people.


    The things above are not mutually exclusive - you might believe blacks are in an "inferior" position because they've had a raw deal (certainly true) or that they are inferior for other reasons, but the bottom line is that the presumption of affirmative action is that an equal playing field is not enough and that the rules of the game need to be slanted. Of course, without taking into account the actual real-world effects, especially secondary & tertiary effects, of the policies.

  • ||

    when i was a kid i used to watch professional wrestling. i gotta admit, i loved it. somethimes a specific wrestler would switch from, "good guy," to, "bad guy," or vise-versa. it made for compelling saturday morning drama. but, i came to realize, regardless of my loyalties to any wrestler, good or bad, the matches were all fixed and they all got thier checks cut from vince mcmahon.

  • ||

    oh, and jcr, i do agree with you. i wonder if you agree that things like legacy status in college admissions is just as destructive.

  • ||

    Petition to remove Specter:
    http://www.petition2congress.com/2/1849/petition-to-remove-arlen-specter-from-office/

  • Ryan||

    Thank you Mr. Specter. Cant wait to vote for you as a Democrat!

  • ||

    i wonder if you agree that things like legacy status in college admissions is just as destructive.

    No, I don't. Legacy status is a major fund-raising tool for colleges that want to panhandle from their alumni.

    -jcr

  • ||

    I thought it presupposes that blacks have an endemic economic disadvantage,

    Since they'll take a rich black kid over a poor white kid, the claim that it's some kind of quest for equity is belied.

    The long and short of it is, racial discrimination is wrong, no matter which group it's directed towards, or what euphemisms are coined to pretend that it's not racism. There is no such thing as collective justice.

    -jcr

  • Michael Ohio||

    Arlen Specter was the source of the 'magic bullet' explanation for the assassination of President Kennedy. It was pure bunk and allowed Oswald, the designated patsy, to solely take the blame. For the Democrat party to now embrace him is despicable and shows a horrendous lack of character. Specter is a shameless opportunist and his magic bullet was a lie. He belongs in prison for that and other activities he has participated in.

  • sathi2000||

    I am unwilling to have my twenty-nine year Senate record judged by the Pennsylvania Republican primary electorate. I have not represented the Republican Party. I have represented the people
    http://www.mirei.com

  • ||

    They may start out with a little card-table and selling a couple of things, but then who is to say what else they have. Is all the produce made there, do they grow it themselves
    Abilene Roofing Company

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