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Freedom No Longer on the March
A truly depressing message from Freedom House, the group that charts political rights and civil liberties around the world. From its 2009 tally:
Freedom retreated in much of the world in 2008, the third year of global decline as measured by Freedom House's annual survey of political rights and civil liberties which released today. Sub-Saharan Africa and the former Soviet Union saw the most reversals, while South Asia showed significant improvement.
"The advance of freedom in South Asia was a rare bright spot in a year that was otherwise marked by setbacks and stagnation," said Freedom House Director of Research Arch Puddington, who pegged the start of the global downturn to the period directly following the "color revolutions" in Europe. "Powerful regimes worldwide have reacted to the 'color revolutions' with calculated and forceful measures designed to suppress democratic reformers, international assistance to those reformers and ultimately the very idea of democracy itself."
Who were the "worst of the worst"?:
Of the 42 countries designated Not Free, eight received the survey's lowest possible ranking for both political rights and civil liberties: North Korea, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Libya, Sudan, Burma, Equatorial Guinea and Somalia. Two territories are in the same category: Tibet and Chechnya. Eleven other countries and territories received scores that were slightly better: Belarus, Chad, China, Cuba, Eritrea, Laos, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Zimbabwe, South Ossetia and Western Sahara.
Go here to check out The Heritage Foundation's 2009 Index of Economic Freedom.
robc|1.14.09 @ 8:46AM|#
IIRC, that is an improvement for Cuba which, at least as of a few years ago, was in the group that scored rock bottom in both categories.
Joel|1.14.09 @ 9:10AM|#
They didn't publish their methodology, so I've no idea what they're using to determine "free" or "not free". They've lumped North Korea (massive central government) in with Somalia (no central government, last I heard) and while I've no doubt that both are hellholes, by what metrics are they making that determination?
Mad Max|1.14.09 @ 9:15AM|#
Channeling a neo-con:
Isn't it obvious? These countries realized that the freedom-lover
George W. Bush was about to leave office and be replaced by a
Defeatocrat. So they decided it was OK to restrict freedom.
Reinmoose|1.14.09 @ 9:22AM|#
This study seems silly to me. I mean, do they really think that they can accurately quantify such a thing as "freedom?" I try to quantify very shakey qualitative things all the time in my own life, but holy crap I don't send out press releases about it.
cunnivore|1.14.09 @ 9:25AM|#
John, I'm sure local Somalian warlords are as oppressive as any totalitarian dictator.
Whiney Cosmotarian|1.14.09 @ 9:44AM|#
You can smoke a cigarette in a restaurant in
China.
But what about gay marriage? THERE'S NO FREEDOM WITHOUT GAY
MARRIAGE!
Taktix®|1.14.09 @ 9:48AM|#
You can smoke a cigarette in a restaurant in
China.
I'd venture a guess that population control is the reason for this
policy.
T|1.14.09 @ 9:53AM|#
I'd venture a guess that population control is the reason
for this policy.
Anyone ever read a weird story where the mice get smart and start
doing all the human behavior for population control instead of our
putative reasons? And finally turn cannibal? Kind of a deranged
version of Mrs. Frisby via Paul Ehrlich? No? Just me?
Okay, never mind.
robc|1.14.09 @ 9:59AM|#
They didn't publish their methodology
Actually, they do. Their website contains details on even the
subquestions they use within each section.
robc|1.14.09 @ 10:02AM|#
Reinmoose,
I mean, do they really think that they can accurately quantify
such a thing as "freedom?"
Considering the levels of difference between the countries scoring
1s (US, most of Europe) and those scoring 7s (the ones listed),
yeah, I think they can quantify freedom.
Is there differences between the subscores of the US and Denmark
accurate? Probably not, but both have main scores of 1,1 and that
is accurate, when compared to a 4,4 of Venezuela or a 7,7 North
Korea.
robc|1.14.09 @ 10:06AM|#
Methodology for those too lazy to look it up themselves (Im looking at you, Joel).
Taktix®|1.14.09 @ 10:06AM|#
Is there differences between the subscores of the US and
Denmark accurate? Probably not, but both have main scores of 1,1
and that is accurate, when compared to a 4,4 of Venezuela or a 7,7
North Korea.
Venezuaela got a 4? But...but...they have a democratically elected
government!
Reinmoose|1.14.09 @ 10:08AM|#
robc is correct. I found both their pathetic methodology and political rights and civil liberties checklist with just a couple of clicks.
robc|1.14.09 @ 10:13AM|#
Taktix,
Venezuaela got a 4? But...but...they have a democratically
elected government!
Ive been using the Freedom House scores as part of my argument with
joe over this very issue. Freedom House is more forgiving that I
am, they still consider Venezuela an electoral democracy (but not a
liberal democracy).
Venezuela was a 2,3 as recently as 1998.
Actually, just looked at the table of electoral democracies - as of
this new report they no longer consider Venezuela to be an
electoral democracy. Im not sure what the 2008 tipping point was,
but it occurred.
robc|1.14.09 @ 10:14AM|#
Reinmoose,
What is pathetic?
I mean, yeah, they were founded by Eleanor Roosevelt, so they arent
exactly bastions of libertarianism. But considering the standards
of freedom in the world, they are pushing things in the right
direction.
|1.14.09 @ 10:18AM|#
I mean, do they really think that they can accurately
quantify such a thing as "freedom?"
"My fellow Earthicans, we enjoy so much freedom, it's almost
sickening. We're free to choose which hand our sex-monitoring chip
is implanted in. And if we don't want to pay our taxes, why, we're
free to spend a weekend with the Pain Monster!"
Reinmoose|1.14.09 @ 10:19AM|#
They just sit there and decide the values of the categories on a 1 through 7 point scale, right? It makes it about as effective and honest as the rapture index
|1.14.09 @ 10:22AM|#
Venezuaela got a 4? But...but...they have a democratically
elected government!
Which is probably why they're still a 4.
robc|1.14.09 @ 10:28AM|#
Reinmoose,
You found the methodology, it is a lot more complex than that. They
consider a lot of stuff and compile that to a 1-7 pt scale.
What they do after they have that, other than publish it, I dont
know. But, having the info is useful in and of itself.
I have a very unlibertarian tariff idea - the freedom tariff. Take
the two FH scores, square them, add them together and subtact 2.
That is the percent of the additional freedom tariff.
So, a 1,1 country would have a 0% freedom tariff added onto their
goods. A 7,7 country would have a 96% freedom tariff.
While it is a bad idea, I like it a lot better than giving China
MFN status while tariffing Canadian wood and other stupid tariffs
on European products and etc.
The idea would be to encourage countries to become freer in order
to get access to the US market cheaper. I dont know if it would
work or not, probably not. So, probably a real bad idea.
robc|1.14.09 @ 10:34AM|#
Which is probably why they're still a 4.
While they are still a 4, something changed to remove the
"electoral democracy" tag from Venezuela. Im guessing their
subcategory scores got lower.
Last year "Electoral Process" scored an 8/12 while "Political
Pluralism" scored an 8/16.
Im guessing that one or the other of those went down this year (the
details dont appear to be available yet).
|1.14.09 @ 10:36AM|#
There are nine countries in the Americas that rank as Partially
Free: Guatemala, Hondorus, Nicaragua, Haiti, Colombia, Venezuela,
Ecuador, Bolivia and Paraguay.
robc, what do you think would get Colombia a better trade deal -
the Colombia Free Trade Agreement, or the Freedom Tariff?
|1.14.09 @ 10:37AM|#
Wow, Taktix, you got me to write a comment?
On a Reason thread?
That IS impressive.
;-)
Citizen Nothing|1.14.09 @ 10:47AM|#
Why no love for CATO's Economic Freedom of the World
index?
(Putting in props for my pal Bob Lawson, who co-authors the
report.)
Speaking of econ profs, my son now has one of my old profs, who was
the advisor to the university libertarian club, back in the day.
I'm hoping he helps put Junior on the straight and narrow.
The Angry Optimist|1.14.09 @ 10:49AM|#
CN - you know the great R.A. Lawson? :-D He was my advisor at
Capital when he was there and we started the "Libertarian
Crusaders".
I'm glad he made it to Auburn; they didn't appreciate him @
Capital.
robc|1.14.09 @ 10:50AM|#
joe,
On the freedom house website. Duh.
Oh, you want more specifics?
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=439
Click on the excel link.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 10:52AM|#
Well, one way that freedom house gets it wrong is that universal suffrage does *not* mean more freedom. One people figure out they can just vote to throw undesirables in jail or vote themselves goodies at others expense, you no longer have freedom.
robc|1.14.09 @ 10:52AM|#
CN,
Why no love for CATO's Economic Freedom of the World
index?
Nothing wrong with it, but I figured when arguing with "people like
joe", having something they wont try to shoot down based on who is
doing it is a good thing. I think it is MNG that has the problem
with CATO stuff. Using FH saves me from a tiring argument. Plus,
they have been doing it for much longer. More historical
detail.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 10:56AM|#
For example, Hong Kong is arguably the freest country on the
entire planet. Despite the fact that there is no "second
amendment", and land ownership is by lease instead of by deed,
their outrageously high economic and social freedoms make up for
it.
Because of the fact that they don't have universal suffrage, it
gets poo-pooed by freedomhouse.
Citizen Nothing|1.14.09 @ 10:57AM|#
TAO, there was once quite a little hotbed of quasi-libertarianism at Capital. I was sorry to see Bob leave town, but happy to see him doing well at Auburn.
Elemenope|1.14.09 @ 10:57AM|#
Because of the fact that they don't have universal suffrage,
it gets poo-pooed by freedomhouse.
Are you saying countries shouldn't get pooh-poohed for denying
suffrage to some of its citizens?
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 10:59AM|#
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&country=7096&year=2006&view=mof
It reads like it was written by leftist friend joe. It obsessed
over positive rights claptrap.
Citizen Nothing|1.14.09 @ 11:00AM|#
TAO - in case you're interested (and didn't know) Bob Lawson blogs regularly at www.divisionoflabour.com. (Remeber to spell "labour" the British way.)
Joetheplumber|1.14.09 @ 11:00AM|#
But what about Afghanistan and Iraq? Didn't our dear leader
liberate 60 million people!?
-JTP
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:01AM|#
"Are you saying countries shouldn't get pooh-poohed for denying
suffrage to some of its citizens?"
If you want to play that game, I don't think *anybody* should the
right to vote. But if there is a state that taxes, those who stand
to lose the most should have the most say in what happens to their
forcibly confiscated wealth.
Citizen Nothing|1.14.09 @ 11:04AM|#
I nominate Egosum for the House of Lords. Oh, wait. I don't get to vote on that?
|1.14.09 @ 11:08AM|#
It reads like it was written by leftist friend joe...If you
want to play that game, I don't think *anybody* should the right to
vote.
Fucking awesome.
I'm going to go hang my head in shame over not loving freedom
enough.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:11AM|#
Also I would like to add that universal suffrage doesn't really exist since we deny the right to vote based upon arbitrary age and the commission of various felonies (of which many are victimless crimes).
|1.14.09 @ 11:12AM|#
Venezuela under Chavez. The first number is political freedom,
the second civil liberties.
2002: 3,5
2003: 3,4
2004: 3,4
2005, 3,4
2006, 4,4
2007: 4,4
2008: 4,4
Venezuela has seen a marginal decrease in political freedom, and a
margin increase in civil liberties, according to Freedom
House.
How bad must the old regime have been for Hugo Chavez to represent
an advance for civil liberties?
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:15AM|#
@joe:
In a state that fully respects negative liberty, universal suffrage
would be a pointless "freedom" anyway. If you can't vote to violate
someone rights, you end up voting for merely symbolic nonsense like
the national bird or what color the flag should be.
With negative liberties, you express yourself in peaceful ways like
creating art, crafting goods, and exchanging these for other goods
and services.
In today's society, voting for more government power is an act of
violence against your neighbor.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:18AM|#
The fact that under Chavez there is no net change in freedom just shows how useless Freedom House is.
robc|1.14.09 @ 11:20AM|#
joe,
The old regime had them at 2,3 in 1999. So, to answer your
question, much better than Chavez, at one time.
Or was there a coup between 99 and 02?
BTW, Venezuela was a 1,3 when Chavez attempted his first coup.
|1.14.09 @ 11:21AM|#
"Are you saying countries shouldn't get pooh-poohed for denying
suffrage to some of its citizens?"
I think the counter would be that on the specific case of "current
freedom" it isn't necessarily much of an issue (though obviously it
could become one).
For example, a dictatorship could basically allow everyone to do
whatever the hell they want. Nobody gets to vote, but it would
obviously be very "free."
What FH is essentially doing is using correlations. For obvious
reasons, places that deny voting rights also tend to deny its
citizens all sorts of other things. His point with Hong Kong being
that such isn't necessarily always the case.
robc|1.14.09 @ 11:22AM|#
Thru most of the 1980s, Venezuela was a 1,2. WTF happened to
them?
It looks like Chavez attempting his first coup was the start of the
downhill.
Reinmoose|1.14.09 @ 11:23AM|#
I'm not sure what the concept of political rights have to do with freedom. Like Egosumabbas, while I am not an anarchist, I do not see how one is an indicator of the other from a logical point of view. You can have a tyranical democracy, and a liberal non-democracy or not complete democracy.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:27AM|#
"Egosum,
Just curious - Do you vote?"
The only moral justification I can give to voting is if it results
in *not* harming your neighbor through the expansion of government,
and if it restores negative liberty.
So I will vote against tax referenda, vote libertarian, or for the
opponent of a known authoritarian incumbent. Otherwise I'll leave
it blank.
robc|1.14.09 @ 11:27AM|#
Wiki answers my questions:
in 1989 the Carlos Andrés Pérez administration enacted widely
unpopular IMF-inspired structural adjustment programs. The
programs' backers sought to restore fiscal stability to Venezuela's
ailing economy by way of neoliberal policies, such as curtailing
social spending and releasing longstanding price controls on many
goods. These policies resulted in many hardships for Venezuela's
poor majority, and their resultant discontent erupted in the
violent February 27, 1989 Caracazo riots-the most violent and
destructive in Venezuelan history.
After the coup attempt in 1992, Perez was impeached in 1993. And it
went to hell.
Elemenope|1.14.09 @ 11:30AM|#
If you can't vote to violate someone rights, you end up
voting for merely symbolic nonsense like the national bird or what
color the flag should be.
Hey man, I don't know about you, but I am thankful we got the Bald
Eagle instead of some turkey. And have you *seen* some flags?
Hideous! These are important matters, man!
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:37AM|#
If all we voted for was the interior decor for the White House I would die a very happy man.
|1.14.09 @ 11:46AM|#
Ego,
Compare the rankings of countries listed as electoral democracies
to those that are not. Look at all of the countries that are the
freest, and all of those that are most unfree.
I daresay that making the government answerable to the people does
more to restrain assaults on freedom than to enable them.
robc|1.14.09 @ 11:50AM|#
joe,
I daresay that making the government answerable to the people
does more to restrain assaults on freedom than to enable
them.
I agree, somewhat. Democracy is great for getting you to a 1,1 and
maintaining that level but counterproductive for gettting you to
0,0 (Rainbow Puppy Island).
If I was living in a 4,4 country, I would want real democracy. Once
you get to 1,1 you got to decide whether to roll the dice or
not.
Of course, since democracy itself is the first number, it is a bit
of a circular argument anyway.
|1.14.09 @ 11:51AM|#
robc,
Interesting find.
Overall, the early years right around 1990 represent a time of
great advances in freedom, according to Freedom House. For fairly
obvious reasons.
The IMF really fell into some "End of History" hubris, though.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:52AM|#
joe:
Correlation is not causation. All I need is one example (Hong Kong)
to prove your argument false.
robc|1.14.09 @ 11:53AM|#
Actually, I guess RPI would be a 7,0. You dont need any political rights in libertopia.
|1.14.09 @ 11:53AM|#
robc,
I think that appending the word "somewhat" to any statements about
the relationships between freedom, political rights, democracy, and
civil liberties is a good call.
|1.14.09 @ 11:54AM|#
Ego,
Pray tell, what is my argument?
I didn't notice any words like "always," "never," or "inevitably"
in my comments, so no, finding a single examples does not prove my
argument false.
BTW, correlation may not prove causation, but a negative
correlation sure as hell DOES disprove causation.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:54AM|#
Also, I'd like to add that constitutional rights (the recognition of negative liberties) existed before universal suffrage. That also proves your argument false.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:55AM|#
You're arguing that freedom is coincident with universal suffrage. I have sufficiently demolished your argument to my satisfaction.
robc|1.14.09 @ 11:56AM|#
joe,
Yeah, following the IMF's ideas was a bad mistake on Perez's part,
but it looks like some of the things he did were reasonably good
ideas. At the very least, nothing to throw a coup over. Heck, didnt
even seem impeachable to me. Just vote in the other party and
reverse the changes.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 11:58AM|#
Also joe, you're a troll, as I've objectively proven before (if I could find that thread I'd link to it), and it was my mistake to engage you in any kind of argument or discussion. So I guess you win by default. You're right, I'm wrong.
|1.14.09 @ 12:00PM|#
You're arguing that freedom is coincident with universal
suffrage.
I'm sorry, FAIL. Pray tell, point out my usage of the term
"universal suffrage."
I have sufficiently demolished your argument to my
satisfaction. You have very low standards, then. Your argument
is laughable.
The Constitution was written by a collection of elected
representatives, operating under the most democratic system found
on the planet at the time of its writing.
What's that? The most democratic polity on the planet produced the
most rights-affirming, liberal Constitution on the planet?
That's unpossible.
|1.14.09 @ 12:01PM|#
Also joe, you're a troll...
And also too, throwing out a personal insult as you scamper off is
probably a good move.
You're right, I'm wrong. No shit.
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 12:03PM|#
Of the 42 countries designated Not Free, eight received the
survey's lowest possible ranking for both political rights and
civil liberties: North Korea, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Libya,
Sudan, Burma, Equatorial Guinea and Somalia. Two territories are in
the same category: Tibet and Chechnya. Eleven other countries and
territories received scores that were slightly better: Belarus,
Chad, China, Cuba, Eritrea, Laos, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Zimbabwe,
South Ossetia and Western Sahara.
Hey, didn't Iraq used to be on that list? What happened
there?
Ohhhhh... right.
Citizen Nothing|1.14.09 @ 12:05PM|#
So I guess TallDave would agree that we should invade North
Korea, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Libya, Sudan, Burma, Equatorial
Guinea and Somalia, to start.
Chop, chop, Obama!
|1.14.09 @ 12:07PM|#
Hey, didn't Iraq used to be on that list? What happened
there?/i>
It became as free as Iran, a 6,6.
BDB|1.14.09 @ 12:08PM|#
"joe | January 14, 2009, 12:07pm | #
Hey, didn't Iraq used to be on that list? What happened
there?/i>
It became as free as Iran, a 6,6."
Wow, that just blew up in TallDave's face.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 12:08PM|#
Ah, I found the objective proof that joe is a troll, and that
you ignore him at your own peril:
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/130511.html#1161562
QED.
|1.14.09 @ 12:20PM|#
Oh, just pipe down already and rub the sore spot. The grown ups
are talking.
More blowing up in TallDave's face: Islamic countries in the Middle
East and North Africa with higher freedom scores than Iraq:
Algeria, Barhrain, Djibouti, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Mali,
Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Oman, Pakistan (close enough), Quatar,
UAE, Yemen.
Even more fun for the neocons: guess what "outpost of liberal
democracy" has the same score as Venezuela?
Georgia, a 4,4.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 12:27PM|#
The Index of Economic Freedom's report on Iraq for the sake of
amusement:
http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/Iraq
|1.14.09 @ 12:30PM|#
You know what would be an interesting exercise?
Figuring out what correlates most closely to a good score on
Freedom House's civil liberties rankings: a good score on their
political rights rankings, or a good score on Heritage's economic
freedom rankings.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 12:32PM|#
Also, an article on why the Heritage Foundations freedom index
is only somewhat better than Freedom House's index:
www.mises.org/story/1724
If LVMI could come out with their own freedom index that would be
welcome.
BDB|1.14.09 @ 12:33PM|#
Joe--
My guess is not all countries that get a good score on economic
freedom are democracies, but all democracies get good scores on
economic freedom.
IIRC the score on the Heritage Economic Freedom Index DOES closely
corrolate with GDP and material well-being.
Elemenope|1.14.09 @ 12:34PM|#
Ah, I found the objective proof that joe is a troll, and
that you ignore him at your own peril
Your notion of proof is pretty sorely lacking.
|1.14.09 @ 12:36PM|#
More blowing up in TallDave's face: Islamic countries in the
Middle East and North Africa with higher freedom scores than
Iraq:
Of course, blowing back in joe's face is the trend in Iraq.
So everyone's got a little sumpn on their face, mmkay?
Reinmoose|1.14.09 @ 12:37PM|#
My guess is not all countries that get a good score on
economic freedom are democracies, but all democracies get good
scores on economic freedom.
BZZZZZZZ
France
- 1,1 Freedom in the World
- #64 on ranking of economic freedom
|1.14.09 @ 12:39PM|#
I don't recall ever making any statements that Iraq would be less free when Saddam was removed, or even that there would be absolutely no increase in freedom.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 12:42PM|#
@LMNOP
I apologize if you're unable to read and use logical reasoning such
as A && B == C. That is to say, if A is true, and B is
true, C must also be true.
|1.14.09 @ 12:45PM|#
You should open a Logic School, Ego.
You can call it "The All Men Are John Skool of Logic."
BDB|1.14.09 @ 12:46PM|#
I'm sure TallDave will bring us the NeoCon Freedom Index to prove us all wrong.
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 12:48PM|#
BTW, note Iraq has a big up arrow. Still, it should be ranked
much higher than it was (6,6). I expect that will be corrected once
Obama takes office and there is less political pressure to declare,
as Harry Raid, "The Iraq war is lost."
4,5 is probably a more accurate ranking. Iraq's levels of violence
are comparable to Brazil and its main problem now is
corruption.
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 12:52PM|#
Note that Iraq meets all the FH requirements for electoral
democracy:
In addition to providing numerical ratings, the survey assigns
the designation "electoral democracy" to countries that have met
certain minimum standards. In determining whether a country is an
electoral democracy, Freedom House examines several key factors
concerning the last major national election or elections.
To qualify as an electoral democracy, a state must have satisfied
the following criteria:
A competitive, multiparty political system;
Universal adult suffrage for all citizens (with exceptions for
restrictions that states may legitimately place on citizens as
sanctions for criminal offenses);
Regularly contested elections conducted in conditions of ballot
secrecy, reasonable ballot security, and in the absence of massive
voter fraud, and that yield results that are representative of the
public will;
Significant public access of major political parties to the
electorate through the media and through generally open political
campaigning.
All clearly true in Iraq, and certified by international
observers.
And a 6 is just absurd for Iraq:
Rating of 6 - Countries and territories with political rights
rated 6 have systems ruled by military juntas, one-party
dictatorships, religious hierarchies, or autocrats.
|1.14.09 @ 12:53PM|#
Venezuela: 4,4.
Georgia: 4,4, with two occupied territories, one a 5,5 and one a
7,6.
One of these countries is held out as a beacon of liberal
democracy, and one is described as a dictatorship.
BDB|1.14.09 @ 12:55PM|#
"Rating of 6 - Countries and territories with political rights
rated 6 have systems ruled by military juntas, one-party
dictatorships, religious hierarchies, or
autocrats."
Iraq is ruled by the "Islamic Dawa Party".
|1.14.09 @ 12:56PM|#
...and then, when they saw my McCain sticker, they carved this
FH on my face.
And also too, when assigning a 1 to the United States for political
rights, Freedom House ignored ACORN.
Islamic Dawa Party Platform|1.14.09 @ 12:56PM|#
1. Absolute sovereignty belongs to Allah.
2. Islamic injunctions are the basis of legislation. The
legislative authority may enact any law not repugnant to
Islam.
3. The people, as vice-regents of Allah, are entrusted with
legislative and executive powers.
4. The jurist holding religious authority represents Islam. By
confirming legislative and executive actions, he gives them
legality."
BDB|1.14.09 @ 12:57PM|#
I'm gonna go ahead and say Canada is a 3,4, because I don't like their beer.
|1.14.09 @ 12:58PM|#
Iraq is ruled by the "Islamic Dawa Party".?
...in partnership with what used to be called the Supreme Council
for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. They recently changed their name to
"Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq," I guess because a revolution is
no longer necessary.
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 1:00PM|#
This sounds more like where Iraq is now:
Ratings of 3, 4, 5 - Countries and territories that have
received a rating of 3, 4, or 5 range from those that are in at
least partial compliance with virtually all checklist standards to
those with a combination of high or medium scores for some
questions and low or very low scores on other questions. The level
of oppression increases at each successive rating level, including
in the areas of censorship, political terror, and the prevention of
free association. There are also many cases in which groups opposed
to the state engage in political terror that undermines other
freedoms.
Iraq has hundreds of free radio, TV, and newspapers, as documented
by Brookings.
http://www.brookings.edu/saban/iraq-index.aspx
My guess is they are weighting towards conditions in the first part
of the year, when Basra and other places in the south were being
seriously oppressed by Sadrists, before Maliki kicked them out
around May (much to the shock of the media, which had been
trumpeting Sadr as "the most powerful man in Iraq"). The up arrow
probably represents the fact Iraq achieved 4s or 5s in the later
half of this year.
The provincial elections in early 2009 and parliamentary elections
later in the year should further cement recognition of their steady
march toward freedom.
Heh, not that anyone will notice, with all the major news
organizations abandoning the boredom of advancing peace and
prosperity.
robc|1.14.09 @ 1:00PM|#
One of these countries is held out as a beacon of liberal
democracy, and one is described as a dictatorship.
Umm, only one of those statements is true.
Actually, I am wrong, you have claimed Venezuela as a democracy so
I guess your statement is true.
I dont claim either as a democracy. Apparently, my standard is
stricter than FH, I move Venezuela from democracy to not years
ago.
BDB|1.14.09 @ 1:03PM|#
Let me know win they change their name to the "Christian Evangelical Party" and call for "Christian Revolution" in the United States.
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 1:04PM|#
Let me elucidate for those who failed their highschool boolean
algebra class:
"Troll (internet): A person who posts to a newsgroup, bulletin
board, etc., in a way intended to anger other posters and to cause
drama, or otherwise disrupt the group's intended purpose."
I ask joe why he posts to reason. And that is to argue with those
not on the left, reason posters being somewhat smarter, I guess
because libertarianism is a consistent ideology.
Now, purposely posting argumentatively on a blog with opposing
views isn't necessarily trolling. This is the case if the argument
is supposed to lead to a greater truth, or trying to objectively
dismantle an ideology to replace it with a more logically
consistent one.
My second question was therefore what ideology he was staking out.
Well, he admitted there was no ideological position. Also, he's not
interested in "truth", or he would concede when an argument is
lost, won, or work with the other party on a better line of
reason.
The effects are obvious. Derailed threads, arguments degenerating
into ad hominem attacks. Et cetera.
Therefore, joe is a troll
|1.14.09 @ 1:05PM|#
robc,
Are you kidding me?
You haven't read about Georgia being described as a beacon of
liberal democracy?
C'mon, I know you were keeping up with the news in 2008.
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 1:11PM|#
This is the
direction things are going:
Here's a story you don't see very often. Iraq's highest court
told the Iraqi Parliament last Monday that it had no right to strip
one of its members of immunity so he could be prosecuted for an
alleged crime: visiting Israel for a seminar on counterterrorism.
The Iraqi justices said the Sunni lawmaker, Mithal al-Alusi, had
committed no crime and told the Parliament to back off.
That's not all. The Iraqi newspaper Al-Umma al-Iraqiyya carried
an open letter signed by 400 Iraqi intellectuals, both Kurdish and
Arab, defending Alusi. That takes a lot of courage and a lot of
press freedom. I can't imagine any other Arab country today where
independent judges would tell the government it could not prosecute
a parliamentarian for visiting Israel - and intellectuals would
openly defend him in the press.
In the case of Iraq, though, the federal high court, in a
unanimous decision, vacated the Parliament's rescinding of Alusi's
immunity, with the decision delivered personally by Chief Justice
Medhat al-Mahmoud. The decision explained that although a 1950s-era
law made traveling to Israel a crime punishable by death, Iraq's
new Constitution establishes freedom to travel. Therefore the
Parliament's move was "illegal and unconstitutional because the
current Constitution does not prevent citizens from traveling to
any country in the world," Abdul-Sattar Bayrkdar, spokesman for the
court, told The Associated Press. The judgment even made the
Parliament speaker responsible for the expenses of the court and
the defense counsel!
Hopefully we'll see more stories like this in the future.
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 1:15PM|#
Heh, a Google for "the most powerful man in iraq" still comes back with more Al-Sadr results than any other. Seldom do memes fail so grandly.
Citizen Nothing|1.14.09 @ 1:19PM|#
I ask again, TallDave: Which of the unfree countries should we invade next?
Egosumabbas|1.14.09 @ 1:20PM|#
As a matter of principle, it was wrong of us to commit
pre-emptive war.
However, objectively, in terms of negative liberty, Iraq is a
better place. TallDave is correct.
Since I'm not a utilitarian, I can't argue post hoc that it was
right for us to invade, or recommend we invade more countries for
this reason.
Neocons are simply liberals, mugged by reality in the sense that
they are utilitarians.
Citizen Nothing|1.14.09 @ 1:20PM|#
I ask again, joe: Which of the "low-hanging fruit" oppressed countries should we invade next?
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 1:25PM|#
Just for the record, Iraq's progress by the numbers:
Independent TV stations: 54 (up from zero)
Independent radio stations: 114 (up from zero)
Independent newspapers/magazines: 268
Free and fair elections: 3 (and counting)
Pesonal/economic freedoms:
Cell phones: 14 million: (up from ~0)
Internet access: 1 million (up from ~0)
Privately owned sutos: 4 million (up from 1.5M)
Privately owned generators: 4000MW (up from ~0)
|1.14.09 @ 1:27PM|#
Citizen Nothing,
The only country on that list that has a situation that could be
characterized as "low hanging fruit" would be Sudan, in particular,
the Darfur region.
I've never recommended "invading" any of them, though.
|1.14.09 @ 1:27PM|#
TallDave knows more about Iraq than the Freedom House researchers who've actually, you know, been there.
robc|1.14.09 @ 1:28PM|#
joe,
You haven't read about Georgia being described as a beacon of
liberal democracy?
Not here. If you want to argue with neocons, go to lgf.
robc|1.14.09 @ 1:29PM|#
Also, joe, I rarely listen to anyone other than myself, and I never called Georgia a liberal democracy.
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 1:30PM|#
Oh, the 268 independent newspapers/magazines are also up from
zero, in case that was unclear. Sorry.
I ask again, TallDave: Which of the unfree countries should we
invade next?
Holding with past practice, we should only invade to remove regimes
that have clearly violated Westphalian norms by seizing territory
from other countries.
If, for instance, North Kroea invaded the South, or Cuba launched a
massive invasion of Costa Rica, the offending government should be
removed, practical constraints allowing.
Elemenope|1.14.09 @ 1:40PM|#
Holding with past practice, we should only invade to remove
regimes that have clearly violated Westphalian norms by seizing
territory from other countries.
And so the Iraq War was, what...the world most delayed reaction to
an invasion ever?
That's...well, I don't think there are words quite stupid enough in
the English language...
TallDave|1.14.09 @ 1:40PM|#
As a matter of principle, it was wrong of us to commit
pre-emptive war.
It's a bit of a murky point, morally, chronologically, and legally.
Iraq was clearly in violation of the cease-fire, so one might
reasonably view the 1991-present situation as a single conflict.
Did the fact tanks stopped outside of Baghdad make our later
actions less moral than if we had gone ahead and removed Saddam in
1991?
It's hard to see how this is materially different than saying that
once Germany's armies of conquest had been defeated, we had no
right to invade and remove the regime (which was trying to
surrender, by some accounts), regardless of what atrocities were
being committed within territory everyone agreed was theirs.
Similar logic applies to Japan. I think it's ipso facto obvious
some regimes cannot be left in power postbellum.
However, objectively, in terms of negative liberty, Iraq is a
better place. TallDave is correct. Since I'm not a utilitarian, I
can't argue post hoc that it was right for us to invade, or
recommend we invade more countries for this reason.
Fair enough. I agree utility in the absence of aggression is not
enough.
|1.14.09 @ 1:44PM|#
Also, joe, I rarely listen to anyone other than myself, and
I never called Georgia a liberal democracy.
Heh. You got me there.
BDB|1.14.09 @ 2:13PM|#
My gut ranks Pakistan a 3,3. I'll give Israel a 2,3. Oh, and Mexico a 1,2. Yeah, that sounds good.
|1.14.09 @ 4:00PM|#
Thread! Thread! Speak to me, thread!
Dammit, stay with me! Stay with me!
One two three four five six seven eight nine ten
blooooooooooooowwww.
One two three four five six seven eight nine ten
blooooooooooooooowwwww.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! Damn you, LurkerBold! Damn you
to hell!
MAX HATS|1.14.09 @ 4:07PM|#
Dude, Talldave, you should seriously consider buying some property over there. Sounds like it would be a great investment.
Geolib|1.14.09 @ 5:23PM|#
"land ownership is by lease instead of by deed, their
outrageously high economic and social freedoms make up for
it."
You see? It works for Hong Kong.
BDB|1.14.09 @ 5:45PM|#
MM, TallDave is borderline delusional. IIRC he said on one thread that Iraq is going to be the next vacation hot spot.
cuernimus|1.14.09 @ 6:50PM|#
If he had said "a vacation spot that is really hot" he would of
got you there, and in rhyming scheme no less.
A democracy doesn't make you free, it just requires there be more
people who don't want you to be free. So instead of being ruled by
a sick authoritarian, you are ruled by sick, old people and their
cravings for pills.
zoltan|1.14.09 @ 8:22PM|#
TallDave used to make me angry. Then he used to annoy me. Now it's just sheer wonder and amazement at how well someone can lie to themselves.
nobody u no and big fan of joe|1.14.09 @ 9:49PM|#
who called joe a troll? that is some serious bad karma
man.
anybody who does not think that venezuela is not free and awsome is
just a total tool.
nobody u no and big fan of joe|1.14.09 @ 9:58PM|#
like rev. wright said, americas chickens are coming home to roost. so will the linertatians.
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