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If by "Hero" You Mean Traitor
As some of you may be aware, I've been writing about John McCain rather critically for some time now. As a result I've grown to expect each new piece to draw one or two e-mails along the lines of "Don't you know he's a HERO, you TRAITOROUS so-and-so!" To which I reply "Yes, but," etc.
But nothing really prepared me for the volume and tenor of outrage when I dared suggest in a family newspaper that published reports disputing McCain's POW heroism were, in my judgment, incorrect. I think the following selection of letters (a few of them edited for length) is illustrative of ... well, something.
---
John McCain went off to rain death on brown people in an earlier unjustified war. He got caught. In your scrubbed version of truth, that's what heroes do. He smears his opponent with slime and half truths. He baldly encourages the lie that Barack Obama is a terrorist, not a 'real' American, but a traitor. He's reaping the whirlwind of racism and hate in the GOP 'base' he's helped to constuct over his years as amedmber of theat overtly elye and racist party. That's what heros do, eh? You're full of shit, pal.
*
McCain is a tratorous rat
*
IT WAS THE BUSH CAMPAIGN IN 2000 WHO REPEATED CALLED MCCAIN A "FAKE HERO" A "TRAITOR" A "FAGGOT" AND MANY OTHER INCREDIBLY VILE THINGS.
WHY NOT WRITE ABOUT THAT?
*
Please send me the links of the articles you wrote 4 years ago when the Swift-boat assholes were reaming Kerry - who did behavior becoming of a "hero." Please tell me you stood up for Kerry then. [...]
Does being a POW make you a war hero? I think not - obviously it is hella-bad times, but that does not in itself make you a "hero." [...]
I pray you do not breed or vote.
*
You conclusion does not include important, relevant points of view. From thousands of feet in the air, McCain was dropping bombs and nepalm on human beings who never attacked us. That was cowardly and violent promotion of imperialism, not heroism.
*
McC is no hero. He lost three planes before getting shot down in Hanoi. With all the practice ejecting, he still did it wrong.
Wrong enough to break both arms and a leg; his severest wounds were self inflicted. If he weren't such a lousy pilot to begin with, he would not have been shot down by WWII era anti aircraft fire. Very few of the 600 POWS were A4 pilots
He ignored sophisticated radar warnings and was shot down. He has fought the release of records of his time in Hanoi and it instructive that none of the other prisoners have endorsed him for President; indeed, several have endorsed Obama and expressed real concern about a McC presidency.
As far as your opinion of his heroism? Real heroes don't call their wives a c*nt (Rolling Stone magazine) a word no gentlemen will utter.
*
do you feel then that the detainees iwho have been in Guantanamo or rendered ("rendition') to countries more suitable for intense interrogation are heroric and worthy of being considered for the highest office in this land?
*
Your "rebuttal" did not refute a single criticism of Rolling Stone's accounts of John McCain's non-heroic behavior. Instead you tried to mitigate the circumstances to suit your need to gloss over a real-life jerk. McCain may be good at stand-up comedy, but hero he's not, and has never been.
Real heroes place the well being of others above themselves, and risk their lives in one exemplary manner after another. That's so far removed from the spoiled and angry McCain that one must completely disregard the facts to get from there to your "reason."
*
In respect to the Vietnam war, history has placed the United States on the wrong side. I have to ask, how can anybody who fought for the United States in that war be deemed a hero?
*
You claim that McCain's actions, which I consider traitorous, to have been heroic and inspiring but you provide no source for this opinion. What soldiers did you interview who told you that they were inspired by his actions? [...]
One could form a better argument that McCain was not disgraced and dishonorably discharged due to the actions of Viet Nam war protesters such as William Ayers.
*
I am sure that many decades ago the young John McCain put up an extraordinary show of heroism; however, the McCain who came home ditched his real wife for a trophy girl and it's been downhill ever since. [...] He richly deserves every innuendo, insult and distortion that comes his way. People say that Americans have short memories, but somehow everyone seems to remember the Great Hero McCain, a man who has never actually shown up in politics stateside. I say, lay it on the bum, and with luck we'll be rid of him for good by November 4.
24AheadDotCom|10.21.08 @ 11:36PM|#
I'll let MattW keep digging his own foxhole on this all by
himself.
Meanwhile, let's imagine what BHO would have done if he'd been in
the same situation as McCain (this is a hypothetical, so him
fleeing to Canada isn't an option).
I'm going to guess he would pretended to give in, but in his
confession he would have encoded a secret MorseCode: "please send
me a teleprompter".
You can do more funny, so have at it.
|10.21.08 @ 11:45PM|#
Perhaps the bevity of your apologics for McCain didn't allow you
time to define what you mean by "hero".
The nub of your article was simply that Mccain, like an
"overwhelming majority of POWs" signed a confession.
If you concede all the negative factual descriptions of McCain's
service and performance in captivity, that's an odd definition of
"hero".
Matt Welch|10.21.08 @ 11:48PM|#
The nub of your article was simply that Mccain, like an
"overwhelming majority of POWs" signed a confession.
If you concede all the negative factual descriptions of McCain's
service and performance in captivity, that's an odd definition of
"hero".
Oddly, that was neither my "nub" nor my "definition." It's a short
article; I'm sure you can find it.
|10.21.08 @ 11:50PM|#
I do not like John McCain and do not wish him to become POTUS.
(Nor, for that matter, do I particularly like Barrack Obama.)
However, I give the man his due for fulfilling his duty to the
limits of his abilities in circumstances that I do not think I
could have endured.
What is with these people that their political feelings about John
McCain so color view that they must smear everything about him?
|10.21.08 @ 11:53PM|#
Real heroes don't call their wives a c*nt (Rolling Stone
magazine) a word no gentlemen will utter.
This person has either never been married or has not been married
for very long.
Douglas Gray|10.21.08 @ 11:54PM|#
Being a POW is not a conscious choice, like falling on a grenade
to protect a fellow soldier. McCain behaved reasonably well as a
POW, but to call him a hero is giving him too much credit.
Possibly staying married to an older, uglier wife rather than going
after a young foxy girl would have been more heroic.
|10.21.08 @ 11:54PM|#
I pray you do not breed or vote.
How's the baby? And who are you voting for?
For me, this is the Worst. Election. Ever. Bob Barr will be lucky
to clear 1/2 million votes, and I'll probably cast mine for him
since I'm in Obama country here in NY. The only reason I'm even
considering McCain/Palin are Second Amendment issues. Obama/Biden
is very scary on that front.
|10.21.08 @ 11:55PM|#
What is with these people that their political feelings
about John McCain so color view that they must smear everything
about him?
The same thing that compels people to call Barack Obama a Muslin
terrorist. A lot of people in this country vote with their hearts
instead of their brains.
|10.21.08 @ 11:57PM|#
Possibly staying married to an older, uglier wife rather
than going after a young foxy girl would have been more
heroic.
Actually, doing what he did likely made him a hero to the 50+ male
crowd.
SIV|10.22.08 @ 12:15AM|#
Damn, those people make me almost want to vote for McCain.Too bad it looks like "their guy" is going to win.
|10.22.08 @ 12:16AM|#
That is ... astonishing.
Did some random Dailykos diary link to you? It's like a bizarro
Freeper onslaught.
|10.22.08 @ 12:25AM|#
Hugh Akston | October 21, 2008, 11:55pm | #
...
The same thing that compels people to call Barack Obama a Muslin terrorist. A lot of people in this country vote with their hearts instead of their brains.
Abstractly, I know what you mean - I've seen their Red state mirror
image. I just don't get the kind of mentality which must cast
someone as a demon because they are on the opposite side.
|10.22.08 @ 12:30AM|#
John McCain's conduct toward his first wife and mother of three
of his children was shameful. In his day, he appears to have been a
horndog that would put Bill Clinton to shame.
Moreover, in that he was still in active service at the time, his
conduct violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
BTW, do we really want a drug thief (even a diverted one) in the
East Wing of the White House?
|10.22.08 @ 12:35AM|#
John in Nashville - In case you didn't know, consensual blowjobs
between man and wife constitute violation of the UCMJ.
As a matter of fact, there exists a "catch-all" article, so I'm not
overwhelmed with this "violation of the UCMJ" stuff.
Also, his conduct towards his wife was over 30 years ago. Let. It.
Go.
alan|10.22.08 @ 12:36AM|#
Whew, that was harsh reading. McCain is definitely not going to be getting the Elder Statesman Lie Down&Take It Dole Award from this crowd for going negative in the campaign.
|10.22.08 @ 12:46AM|#
Disclaimer: I never considered voting for McCain. For a time
after Ron Paul's campaign ground to a halt, I considered voting for
Obama. Now, it's going to be Barr.
That being said, it's really sad how so many Obama supporters get
driven over the edge when something positive is said about McCain.
Sad, too, how they wet their pants every time someone says
something negative about Obama.
I can't believe all of the comments are generated by the Daily Kos
lunatic fringe. Seems like Obama has generated a personality cult
in whose eyes he can do no wrong and his critics can do no
right.
alan|10.22.08 @ 12:47AM|#
BTW, do we really want a drug thief (even a diverted one) in
the East Wing of the White House?
She funded the emergency action and went with Doctors Without
Borders to Rwanda during the genocide at personal risk to her own
life. So, how does your shit smell? It doesn't, you say?
And no, I'm not a McCain supporter, I actually despise the man but
likely for entirely different reasons that you do I would hazard to
guess.
Warmongering Lunatic|10.22.08 @ 12:48AM|#
Being a POW is not a conscious choice, like falling on a
grenade to protect a fellow soldier.
Well, you know, except when it is, like when you've been offered a
ticket home by your captors because your daddy is an important
admiral. He knew what he'd get if he said no, and kept faith with
the Code of Conduct and his fellows anyway.
As far as the treatment of his first wife . . . his first wife
doesn't seem to have any grudge. She's supporting his campaign for
President. If she isn't complaining, on what basis is anybody
else?
Syd|10.22.08 @ 12:54AM|#
John McCain was injured in the service of his country and
endured years of imprisonment, often showing leadership, so, sure
he's a hero, and trying to deny it is tasteless. Although it's not
really a qualification to be president. His long service in
Congress is his primary qualification.
Similarly, Bob Dole is a hero as well, as are Jessica Lynch and
Tammy Duckworth. They're heroes with a small "h," which is not to
diminish them because there are lots of veterans who served with
honor and were injured in the service of their country.
On the other hand, there are Heroes who are beyond belief, like
Audie Murphy and Alvin York, where you look at what they did with
awe. And you still don't elect them president.
nebby|10.22.08 @ 12:55AM|#
On what basis? I am not dependent on McCain for my continuing health care so I can call him the piece of shit he is without fear. My basis is the actions he chose. Dumping the wife who waited for you while you were a POW for a newer model that can fund your political ambitions is scummy no matter what else you have done.
|10.22.08 @ 1:00AM|#
There's a big difference between trying to distort McCain's war
record to try to make the case that he somehow unusually
dishonorable (which has as much credibility as "Obama wasn't really
born in Hawaii") and pointing out that there was nothing heroic
about what he was doing when he got shot down. He was participating
in an unjust war, and there's nothing heroic about that.
At the same time, that doesn't mean that his actions while in
captivity- resisting torture, helping fellow POWs, etc.- weren't
heroic. Near as I can tell from what I've read they were, though
obviously I wasn't there. To be honest I don't particularly care-
the whole issue is completely irrelevant as to whether or not John
McCain should be President.
|10.22.08 @ 1:01AM|#
nebby - post-heroic actions do not *magically* erase the actions
taken in war.
Take Andrew Jackson - he was a terrible, genocidal maniac. He still
took a sword to the fucking face for basically flipping the bird to
the British. Oh yeah and kind of beat their ass in New
Orleans.
War hero - yes. Douchebag and all around bad guy - yes. Heroes
don't have to be saints, dude.
Orange Line Special|10.22.08 @ 1:03AM|#
Could someone make me a graphic of this combined with this, but with Mikey's face replaced with BHO's face? Because, I think that would just be sweet. Call it, "decades of service".
alan|10.22.08 @ 1:07AM|#
How young do you have to be to be that pollyanna about
relationships?
Would every action you have taken in regard to a significant other
survive the scrutiny of outside observers? How young do you have to
be for that to possibly be the case?
This is an area that people where people tend to avoid imposing
their own judgments for good reason, unless they just haven't been
there themselves.
alan|10.22.08 @ 1:09AM|#
strike 'that people' as McCain would no doubt like to withdraw the 'that one' remark.
|10.22.08 @ 1:10AM|#
"A lot of people in this country vote with their hearts instead
of their brains."
And that, folks, is the essence of the problem in our politics, our
society, and ourselves. We live in a post-rational, post-reason
world.
|10.22.08 @ 1:12AM|#
I'd also like to mention that the one article I've read (IIRC,
it was from the Guardian) discussing McCain's post-war behavior WRT
his first wife didn't take any kind of PTSD / post-war malaise /
"people change" kind of thing into account.
for anyone to malign McCain over the dynamics of a relationship
where they weren't even freakin' there just speaks to the power of
doucehbaggery.
alan|10.22.08 @ 1:20AM|#
I knew an ex navy guy who got out of the service in his early
fifties. He was fit, trim, great personality, an all around
superior specimen. His wife, on the other hand, let herself go,
hovered around two hundred pounds, she popped pills like a fiend
and she always sounded slow, slurred and druggy (in the
prescription since). Add to the mix a generally foul personality
and a bad temper.
Their daughter (grown) once asked me if i thought her dad cheated
on her mom, and I forget what I told her, but I remember well what
was in the back of my mind, 'it would be a damn miracle if he
didn't'.
|10.22.08 @ 1:26AM|#
A pox on both their houses.
This is why, despite my interest in politics, I cherish my days in
a non-political job talking to normal people, who don't start
acting like robotic missiles automatically set to deploy whenever a
compliment/criticism (no matter the veracity of the statement) is
uttered about their pre-determined Saviour/Satan.
|10.22.08 @ 2:16AM|#
It's sad that so many people are incapable of seeing the world except through the prism of unvarnished evildoers vs. untainted heroes.
|10.22.08 @ 2:19AM|#
I see the enlightened goodness of the liberals is out in full force. Imagine how warm and compassionate they might be if McCain wins the election.
|10.22.08 @ 2:22AM|#
... not that I'm giving a pass to the cold hearted conservatives. But it gladdens me to see liberals living up to their vaunted reputation.
jk|10.22.08 @ 3:34AM|#
John McCain went off to rain death on brown people
...
When did Asians become "brown people"?
|10.22.08 @ 6:53AM|#
Remember, it's impossible to disagree with someone's policies without also hating, with all your thundering heart, the person with whom you disagree.
herodotus|10.22.08 @ 6:55AM|#
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't joe saying that left-wing
democratic types don't say the kind of things that are written in
these letters?
joe?
Abdul|10.22.08 @ 7:08AM|#
I like how some people say McCain's POW ordeal wasn't heoric,
like rushing into a burning building or jumping on a grenade.
It's funny, because if the latter is your definition of hero,
McCain
did that too.
|10.22.08 @ 7:34AM|#
In respect to the Vietnam war, history has placed the United
States on the wrong side. I have to ask, how can anybody who fought
for the United States in that war be deemed a hero?
This seems to be a reasonable question. It's similar to the outrage
expressed by many when Reagan paid a ceremonial visit to a German
cemetary where members of the Waffen-SS were buried. No doubt some
of them had served their country with bravery, but the cause they
fought in prevented many from believing they should be treated as
heroes.
Can one become a hero in service to an unjust cause?
|10.22.08 @ 8:03AM|#
He was participating in an unjust war, and there's nothing
heroic about that.
n respect to the Vietnam war, history has placed the United
States on the wrong side.
That people still take the position that the US was wrong to oppose
the Communists in Viet Nam after the utter catastrophe they wrought
when we pulled out, continues to, well, bemuse.
Can one become a hero in service to an unjust cause?
Sure. Heroism is measured on the ground, not in the abstract.
The first, longest step toward atrocity is dehumanizing your
opponents because they are on the other side.
Elemenope|10.22.08 @ 8:20AM|#
We live in a post-rational, post-reason world.
We live in a world where people compulsively repeat themselves.
|10.22.08 @ 8:32AM|#
We live in a world where people compulsively repeat themselves.
I noticed that too.
|10.22.08 @ 8:35AM|#
"When did Asians become "brown people"?"
Well, they ain't white 'mericans, so they must be some kinda
"brown." (brown=inferior)
|10.22.08 @ 8:37AM|#
It's sad that so many people are incapable of seeing the world except through the prism of unvarnished evildoers vs. untainted heroes.
Especially with the prevalance of antiheroes in fiction for the past 100 years and that's not even counting the use of tragic heroes in Greek myths and even the Bible. Weird. Maybe the lack of a true "villain" in the scenario is troubling to people. Not a very good story, so I guess one of the candidates has to be a protagonist and the other the antagonist.
mnuez|10.22.08 @ 8:37AM|#
Some of the quoted comments (and parts of some others) seem
off-the-rail wacky but quite a few seem to have been written by
pretty rational folk. Anyway, I just want to cheer on Brian24's
comment, the best of the bunch. McCain may or may not be a "hero"
(a word with ever changing definitions) with regard to the overall
tenor of his service in Vietnam but that IS just one particular
regarding his biography, his resume and his list of qualifications
for the office that he's currently applying for. One can be a
"hero" in enemy captivity and still be a serial rapist and neither
aspect of one's autobiography negate the other. Heck, TR was a
war-lover if ever there was one (a man who helped instigate a war
of aggression and subsequently wrote proudly of a murder that he
claims to have committed in that war) and he may still have been
deservant of that Peace Prize on account of OTHER of his
efforts.
Anyhow Matt this is obviously a lesson that you hardly need to hear
but it would seem that many of your LA Times readers ought
to.
mnuez
rhywun|10.22.08 @ 8:44AM|#
When did Asians become "brown people"?
Well, they ARE pretty dark down there. The sun imparts a brown-ish
hue. I should know--I dated one for years.
FWIW, a friend of mine wrote thusly of McCain's
character:
In the 2000 campaign, Rove spread propaganda about him implying that McCain's ADOPTED black daughter was actually the illegitimate product of adultery / and McCain did NOTHING to defend himself / took the shit with a smile / fuckin' pansy
|10.22.08 @ 9:05AM|#
Everything I have ever heard about McCain is that he is pretty
pig headed, arrogant and kind of a jerk. When you think about it,
it is no surprising at all that he did some heroic things in
captivity. When you are locked in a cage and people are torturing
you, being pig headed and arrogant is probably a pretty good thing
to be. Considering his personality, I have no doubt he drove the
Vietnamese nuts. I am sure the people who ran that prison rued the
day they ever shot that subborn bastard out of the sky.
Now, as someone pointed out above in regard to Andrew Jackson, that
doesn't mean he is cut out to be President. Chief negotiator to
North Korean probably, but President I am not sure. It is amazing
how crazy and personal politics is. It is like anyone you disagree
with must be all bad all the time and nothing postive about them
can be true.
|10.22.08 @ 9:26AM|#
Abstractly, I know what you mean - I've seen their Red state
mirror image. I just don't get the kind of mentality which must
cast someone as a demon because they are on the opposite
side.
Because discussing issues and the records of candidates would
require people to actually think. Demonizing the opponent is a
tactic employed by the intellectually shallow and lazy since at
least the bronze age.
Also, it works with some of the electorate. See "Swift Boat
Veterans for Truth". [retch]
|10.22.08 @ 9:31AM|#
But seriously folks. I worked with a man that had done time for
drug "selling." when pressed by a young dumbass about prison and
the uglier aspects the man said, "I did what I had to to survive,"
McCain was no different. We like to think there are rules of
conduct in captivity, but until I am faced with what McCain went
through, I have no Idea if I could adhere to the rules.
My dad served in that "unjust war." There were things he didn't
agree with but it was his job and his duty as a member of the
military. And he had a half dozen kids to feed.
As far as McCain caling his wife a c*nt, maybe she was.
I hope that if I ever become a public figure, that no one looks
into what I was doing between the ages of 14 and about 22.
There's a lot to dislike about McCain as president without dragging
his private life from 35 years ago into it or questioning his honor
as a naval officer.
|10.22.08 @ 9:35AM|#
A lot of people are saying they don't like either McCain or Obama. How about if we don't like them we don't vote for them? Who knows, maybe Barr would win. That would really shake things up.
|10.22.08 @ 9:36AM|#
He was participating in an unjust war, and there's nothing
heroic about that.
You read it here first. There were NO U.S. heroes in
Vietnam, The War with Mexico, The Spanish-American war, the
Philippines insurrection, any of the battles with the native
Americans, ...
Pure fucking genius analysis.
|10.22.08 @ 9:51AM|#
The way your dad looked at it, this watch was your birthright. He'd be damned if any of the slopes were gonna get their greasy yellow hands on his boy's birthright. So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide something: his ass. Five long years, he wore this watch, up his ass. Then when he died of dysentery, he gave me the watch. I hid this uncomfortable piece of metal up my ass for two years. Then, after seven years, I was sent home to my family. And now, little man, I give the watch to you.
|10.22.08 @ 9:54AM|#
"He was participating in an unjust war, and there's nothing
heroic about that."
Yeah because the communists were such humane rulers. There is
nothing just about trying to save people from re-education camps
and the killing fields.
|10.22.08 @ 10:02AM|#
I find it interesting that so many wish to bring up the end of his first marriage after he had been gone for 6 years in a very traumatic environment as if that is a rarity and it makes him scum. Frankly, as a member of the armed services it is more common than most knwo to come home from 6 months or a year away from your spouse or significant other to find that your experiences in a wartime environment has fundamentally changed who you are and while you were gone your spouse has grown and changed as well. That is one of the reasons why the divorce rate within the armed services is high than the general public.
|10.22.08 @ 10:03AM|#
"He was participating in an unjust war, and there's nothing
heroic about that."
The hard left are unusually active on Reason these days.
|10.22.08 @ 10:06AM|#
"A lot of people are saying they don't like either McCain or
Obama. How about if we don't like them we don't vote for
them?"
I think the average commenter here is doing just that.
|10.22.08 @ 10:09AM|#
"See "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth". [retch]"
Their comments re Kerry were factually based. Calling your fellow
soldiers war criminals is probably not the best way to win their
support either.
bubba|10.22.08 @ 10:10AM|#
Admiral Stockdale was shot down and captured while flying an A-4. Did he suck, too?
|10.22.08 @ 10:16AM|#
"In respect to the Vietnam war, history has placed the United
States on the wrong side."
I think this translates as "my aging hippe teacher told me that the
Vietnam war was a war of imperialist aggression by the capitalist
running dogs against the noble heros of the socialist
revolution".
|10.22.08 @ 10:17AM|#
Matt, I'm surprised that you were not prepared for this. It is not at all unremarkable for leftists to reflexively attack anyone who violates their "approved" narrative that any Republican or conservative is inherently evil and stupid. You are one of the few liberal bloggers that I read on a regular basis, and I don't see that knee-jerk response from you, but I can't imagine that you haven't seen it in your comment section, not to mention other lefty blogs
|10.22.08 @ 10:19AM|#
Oh, cripes, here we go: if you think the Vietnam War was wrong,
yoor a commie!
T-minus 13 days until we don't have to listen to old people argue
about Vietnam anymore.
jonolan|10.22.08 @ 10:19AM|#
Do not be overly concerned about the vitriol spewed for by the
Left. They are the enemy and must be expected to behave in such
vile and subhuman ways.
There should be no surprise experienced when people who hate
America and all it was built upon spew filth at its heroes.
|10.22.08 @ 10:20AM|#
So long as you acknowledge that it is possible for a Japanese
Zero pilot to rightly be considered a hero for participating and
giving his life in the attack at Pearl Harbor, there should not be
any issue with understanding how some could consider John McCain a
hero.
Or are we using a different definition of hero than "someone who
goes above and beyond the call of duty after invading another
country and killing some people"?
|10.22.08 @ 10:21AM|#
Matt: this is what happens when you dare to defend, however
gently, the enemy of Christ.
Go ahead - click the link - you know you want to. That's some
delicious crazy, of the kind you only get at D-Kos.
The following is a comment left here - when I click the link to the
truthfirst blog I either get an error message or the IE goes boom,
so avoid it.
Make no mistake: It is Barack Obama's destiny to be
President of the United States. Justice demands it. The Truth
demands it. The World demands it.
Oppressed peoples throughout the world are looking to Obama for
hope. For Justice. For an to war. For America to stop attacking the
world and for it to start being a just and peaceful member of the
community of nations.
If for some reason he is not elected then there will be a cry of
outrage so great that America and all its racist institutions will
shake and collapse. It will be the end of America and God will damn
it for its final and most terrible sin.
http://truthfirstnow.blogs
Seriously Matt. It's time to get right with the Lord.
Elemenope|10.22.08 @ 10:21AM|#
There is nothing just about trying to save people from
re-education camps and the killing fields.
Some were saved with jellied gasoline.
Some were saved with shrapnel.
Some were saved with 5.56.
We used the tools available, and by God, we saved that whole
country, right in the face, over and over again.
I'm sure they appreciated that salvation.
|10.22.08 @ 10:21AM|#
They'll still be sittin on their porches muttering about "hate
America" this and "fascist" that, but nobody's going to pay any
attention.
Two boomer presidents: two too many.
|10.22.08 @ 10:27AM|#
Elemenope,
"I'm sure they appreciated that salvation."
Yeah, and I bet on your planet the Khmer Rouge are just "community
organizers."
|10.22.08 @ 10:27AM|#
There is nothing just about trying to save people from
re-education camps and the killing fields.
I agree; the NVA's war agains the Khmer Rouge was just.
|10.22.08 @ 10:28AM|#
That's the standard, right?
If the other side are murderous communists, then your side is just,
right?
|10.22.08 @ 10:31AM|#
"If the other side are murderous communists, then your side is
just, right?"
Yes. So spare us all your moral equivalence games.
|10.22.08 @ 10:32AM|#
No hate like liberal hate.
Daily Kos has the credibility of a flyer on a windshield in a
parking lot somewhere.
bdog57|10.22.08 @ 10:36AM|#
"The same thing that compels people to call Barack Obama a
Muslin terrorist. A lot of people in this country vote with their
hearts instead of their brains"
Muslin? Oh, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that he has deep ties
to polyester!
Elemenope|10.22.08 @ 10:39AM|#
Yeah, and I bet on your planet the Khmer Rouge are just
"community organizers."
No, they were genocidal douchebags.
I'm just saying that by what force a guy was killed matters little
to the guy. I imagine the guy that was napalmed is just as dead as
the guy that was shot in the back of the head.
And I'm sure he was about as grateful for one fate as for the
other.
"You think we waste Gooks for freedom? Flush your headgear."
|10.22.08 @ 10:44AM|#
It seems that many people are simply fixated on the word "hero"
and what it means--and then react emotionally to one extreme or the
other, when the name "McCain" and the word "hero" are uttered in
the same sentence, depending upon whom you already support.
Although I'm not voting for him--because I don't like his stance on
many issues (as well as his lack of a stance)--I think that attacks
on his service record and his marriage are no more valid (key word:
valid) than attacking Obama's past using tactics of
guilt-by-association and insinuation. I don't understand the
attacks on either side at all. Aren't we adults? Do we have to
reduce ourselves to the equivalent of righteous left or right
temper tantrums?
I guess we do . . .
|10.22.08 @ 10:45AM|#
Let me help you out, Mark J.
The Khmer Rouge had several dozen members when we became involved
in Southeast Asia.
After we expanded the our bombing runs across the border into
Cambodia, and worked to undermine the Cambodian government in the
eyes of their public, the Khmer Rouge grew large enough to take
over the country.
We blocked efforts to sanction them in the UN when news of the
crimes reached the world.
They were eventually overthrown by the Vietnamese Army - the one we
had been at war with - who brought the killing fields to an
end.
So spare us your moral superiority games. Your good intentions
won't pay for one Buddhist monk's prayers for the dead.
|10.22.08 @ 10:46AM|#
You [,Matt ,] are one of the few liberal bloggers that I read on a regular basis...
I thought libertarians were right-wing conservatives. ;-)
|10.22.08 @ 11:00AM|#
I've served 19 years in the Navy and am a Gulf War
Veteran.
All I have to say is that no one better utter any of the nonsense
uttered in the comments in my presence. Ever.
I don't want to be in jail and they don't want to be in critical
condition.
The Wine Commonsewer|10.22.08 @ 11:01AM|#
Timmy O'Toole was a hero, and all he did was fall down a
well.
Hero is another word that has been completely neutered. It has
relatively little actual meaning without five paragraphs of context
to define it. But, like pictures of naked people without any
redeeming social value, we know it when we see it.
|10.22.08 @ 11:02AM|#
To be clear, I meant the comments in the letters, not the comments to the article here.
|10.22.08 @ 11:10AM|#
I didn't see any of the emails add: "And the Angels suck." So... Not soooo over the top, perhaps...
The Wine Commonsewer|10.22.08 @ 11:14AM|#
So long as you acknowledge that it is possible for a
Japanese Zero pilot to rightly be considered a hero for
participating and giving his life in the attack at Pearl
Harbor
I think it's more along the lines of General Patton's theory of
making the other bastard die for HIS country.
And in that regard, I think that there was grudging admiration of
the Japanese on Iwo Jima, who refused to surrender. Not sure the
Marines called them heros, but they gave them their due. After they
killed them, of course.
When I was a vagrant yoot I took a field trip with the Boy Scouts
to Las Alamitos Naval Air Station where they had a couple of
captured Japanese suicide planes on display.
I was shocked and deeply disturbed to learn that the canopies were
bolted and locked down FROM THE OUTSIDE. That was to ensure that
the pilots didn't abandon their thoughts of heroism.
So, while you could argue that these men were brave heroes
desperately fighting to the bitter end, they had a little help.
dhex|10.22.08 @ 11:24AM|#
Could someone make me a graphic
what the fuck is this? outsourcing? OUTSOURCING?
LONEWACKO IS OUTSOURCING AMERICAN WORK.
LONEWAKCO IS UNWILLING TO DO THE JOBS THAT LONEWACKO WON'T
DO.
seriously though, i understand, as photoshop was created by
mexicans.
|10.22.08 @ 11:27AM|#
Joe,
The North Vietnamese Communist were horrible people who subjugating
and murdered millions. In fact all communists everywhere were
murderous horrible people. We will stop arguing about Vietnam after
we have a national communist atonement day. On that day every
leftist everywhere will stand up and say that "communism is failed
horrible ideology responsible for the deaths of millions and I
sincerely apologize for ever excusing its excesses or engaging in
any moral equivalence between the behavior of communists and the
behavior of its enemies outside of the fascists." When the left
finally comes clean admits their sins and complicity in the deaths
of millions, we can stop arguing about such things. Even you today
will find someway to say how the North Vietnamese just weren't that
bad. Pathetic.
Elemenope|10.22.08 @ 11:33AM|#
John --
Not everything is game for moral equivalency, you know. There can
be gradations of asshole.
Both the Khmer Rouge and the NVA rank higher on this hypothetical
scale than the US troops in Vietnam did. But that doesn't mean we
aren't on it. If KR was a 10 and NVA an 8 (they get a two point
pass because they were fighting an invading force), what does My
Lai and Agent Orange buy you? Were we a 4 or a 5?
Saying, in essence, we lit people on fire so they couldn't be
re-educated in camps is approximately as vapid as the average
leftist defense of communism, IMO.
|10.22.08 @ 11:34AM|#
Someone is passing brought up the subject of where Obama was
born. I understand that someone has brought suit to force Obama to
produce a proper birth certificate. Given the tenousness of his
relationship with the United States: His mother's distaste for the
country, her foreign husbands, and his whole youth and education
outside mainland United States, what many of us perceiveis a man
who is essentially an immigrant who came to America to make his
fortune, and whose personal associations have all been with people
who have a grievance with the country. That being said, most people
do not share our concerns because he was "adopted" by the Chicago
elites, who think nothing of his association with the likes of
Ayers because they long ago forgave Ayers his youthful
"indiscretions. Ayers sits on boards which dole out millions in
charities in causes that he favors. He is perceived as one of
"them,"
as is Obama. The attitude is not much different from that which
made Dean Acheson defend Alger Hiss and which made the liberal
elite defend Hill to the day of his death.
|10.22.08 @ 11:36AM|#
Around 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in California .
He is very open about his two years at Occidental, he tried all
kinds of drugs and was wasting his time but, even though he had a
brilliant mind, did
not apply himself to his studies. 'Barry' (that was the name he
used all his life) during this time had two roommates, Muhammad
Hasan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both from Pakistan . During the
summer of 1981, after his
second year in college, he made a 'round the world' trip. Stopping
to see his mother in Indonesia , next Hyderabad in India , three
weeks in Karachi , Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's
family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family. My
question - Where did he get the money for this trip? Nether I, nor
any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this
when they where in college. When he came back he started school at
Columbia University in New York . It is at this time he wants
everyone to call him Barack - not Barry. Do you know what the
tuition is at Columbia ? It's not cheap to say the least! Where did
he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe. After Columbia , he
went to Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for $12,000 a
year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living in New
York .
By 'chance' he met Antoin 'Tony' Rezko, born in Aleppo Syria , and
a real estate developer in Chicago . Rezko has been convicted of
fraud and bribery this year. Rezko, was named 'Entrepreneur of the
Decade' by the Arab-American Business and Professional
Association'. About two years later, Obama entered Harvard Law
School. Do you have any idea what tuition is for Harvard Law
School? Where did he get the money for Law School? More student
loans? After Law school, he went back to Chicago . Rezko offered
him a job, which he turned down. But, he did take a job with Davis,
Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Guess what? They represented 'Rezar'
which is Rezko's firm. Rezko was one of Obama's first major
financial contributors when he ran for office in Chicago.
In 2003, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama which Chicago
Tribune reporter David Mendelland claims was instrumental in
providing Obama with 'seed money' for his U.S. Senate race. In
2005, Obama purchased a new home in Kenwoood District of Chicago
for $1.65 million (less than asking price). With ALL those Student
Loans - Where did he get the money for the property? On the same
day Rezko's wife, Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot for full
price. The London Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born
Billionaire loaned Rezko $3.5 million three weeks before Obama's
new home was purchased. Obama met Nadhmi Auchi many times with
Rezko
Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was
Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does
not make any major decisions without talking to her first. Where
was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz,Iran! Do we see a pattern
here? Or am I going crazy?
On May 10, 2008 The Times reported, Robert Malley, advisor to
Obama, was 'sacked' after the press found out he was having regular
contacts with 'Hamas', which controls Gaza and is connected with
Iran. This past week, buried in the back part of the papers, Iraqi
newspapers reported that during Obama's visit to Iraq, he asked
their leaders to do nothing about the war until after he is
elected, and he will 'Take care of things'.
Oh, and by the way, remember the college roommates that where born
in Pakistan ? They are in charge of all those 'small' Internet
campaign contributions for Obama. Where is that money coming from?
The poor and middle class in this country? Or could it be from the
Middle East?
And the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The Washington
Times posted a verbal slip that was made on 'This Week' with
George
Stephanapoulos. Obama on talking about his religion said, 'My
Muslim faith'. When questioned, 'he made a mistake'. Some
mistake!
All of the above information I got on line. If you would like to
check it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama; Tony Rezko;
Valerie Jarrett:
Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times
-
September 7, 2008; The Times May 10, 2008.
Now the BIG question - If I found out all this information on my
own, Why haven't all of our 'intelligent' members of the press been
reporting this?
A phrase that keeps ringing in my ear - 'Beware of the enemy from
within'!!!
Now factor in one last footnote: Obama was sworn in on the Quran
for his current office, so will that happen if he is sworn in as
president? He refuses to pledge allegiance to the United States or
put his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is played with
a pathetically lame explanations of his philosophy! Only recently
he was badgered by public opinion to wear a flag lapel pin. So, so
many coincidences!
The Muslims have said they will destroy us from within. Hello! Will
you trust this man with our national secrets?
|10.22.08 @ 11:38AM|#
The North Vietnamese Communist were horrible people who
subjugating and murdered millions
But John, they FOUGHT COMMUNISTS! They fought to save people in
Cambodia from re-education camps and the killing fields..
You know, like you wrote here, in response to somebody saying our
cause in Vietnam wasn't just:
Yeah because the communists were such humane rulers. There is
nothing just about trying to save people from re-education camps
and the killing fields.
Nothing else matters. Nothing. If a military force FOUGHT
COMMUNISTS, they are the good guys, and everyone in that army is a
hero. There are no other criteria.
Why, John? Why do you continue to defend the Khmer Rouge like
this?
|10.22.08 @ 11:39AM|#
Elemenope,
Saying, in essence, we lit people on fire so they couldn't be
re-educated in camps is approximately as vapid as the average
leftist defense of communism, IMO.
Of course, only one of those sentiments has been expressed by
anyone on this thread.
John, why do you continue to defend the Khmer Rouge as good
people?
|10.22.08 @ 11:57AM|#
Elemenope--
When one engages in war, one will do terrible things. Civilians get
caught up in the battle. In 1994, in order to "liberate"
Normandy,
we rained death on the area in a way that far exceeded what we did
in Vietnam, except that the battle was for two months rather than
years. I believe about 20,0000 French civilians were killed . What
we did to the German civilian populations was much eorse than
anything we did in Vietnam. YET people don't get upset because,
somehow, the Nazis are regarded as so horrible that almost
everythinbg done against Germans is given a pass. Yes, we hear
about Hamburg and Dresden; No, people do not screem and holler how
immoral we were to do this. And yes, we hear about the atomic
bombing of Japan as racist--even though only the sudeen collapse of
the Nazi regime preventedus from using the bomb on the Germans.
Oppenheimer who had qualms about using the bomb on the japs, would
have gladly used it to kill Hitler. BUT it is quite possible that
some historian wriing a hundred years in the future will not that
Hitler was no worse than many other men of his ilk, such as Stalin
and Mao. To me it is odd that MAO, who probably killed more people
than anyone else, his own coutrymen at that. Humans are natural
partisans; one man's hero is another's villian.
Lenny Zimmermann|10.22.08 @ 12:03PM|#
Anyone care to compare these emails to the ones Radley Balko
seems to get from the folks that read Fox News?
http://www.theagitator.com/2008/10/21/i-get-email-18/
Radley stated he gets as many inane emails from the left as from
the right, but of the sheer grammar of these is any kind of
comparison (even if I don't agree with their conclusions)...
|10.22.08 @ 12:14PM|#
jk | October 22, 2008, 3:34am | #
John McCain went off to rain death on brown people ...
When did Asians become "brown people"?
Jim Bob | October 22, 2008, 6:53am | #
pakistanis, indians, and iraqis are all asians.
They are all brownish.
Some Afghans are brown too, they are Asians.
Eastern Russians are Asians too, but they are white.
Kolohe|10.22.08 @ 12:32PM|#
After Columbia , he went to Chicago to work as a Community
Organizer for $12,000 a year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was
already living in New York .
'anne'-
He worked for four years in New York after his Columbia graduation.
(3 years at a PIRG branch)
Kolohe|10.22.08 @ 12:33PM|#
Eastern Russians are Asians too, but they are white.
Except the ones that are part of ethnic groups that are related to
Mongols/Koreans/Inuit/Ainu
L.N. Smithee|10.22.08 @ 1:15PM|#
The myopia of people who tend to hate McCain can be illustrated by the fact that raging in the comments are arguments about whether the people he bombed were "brown" or not. His sins of bombing would have been less egregious if native Vietnamese were blue-eyed and blonde, like, say, Germans?
alan|10.22.08 @ 1:24PM|#
Lane Honda | October 22, 2008, 10:20am | #
So long as you acknowledge that it is possible for a Japanese Zero
pilot to rightly be considered a hero for participating and giving
his life in the attack at Pearl Harbor, there should not be any
issue with understanding how some could consider John McCain a
hero.
Or are we using a different definition of hero than "someone who
goes above and beyond the call of duty after invading another
country and killing some people"?
Absolutely dead on right. Respecting your enemy is also the first
step to take in defeating him.
blackminorcapullets|10.22.08 @ 1:39PM|#
Many here are still suffering from Duranty Induced
Delirium.
McCain went to Viet Nam to kill communists.
What part of "The communists killed 100 million in the last
century." do many here not understand?
|10.22.08 @ 1:51PM|#
My only comment is to express amazement at the number of people who apparently don't equate USA being on the 'wrong side' of the Vietnam war with the murderous communists being on the 'right side.' It's not 'my country, right or wrong' but 'my country, always wrong' and that's a bloody shame.
|10.22.08 @ 2:09PM|#
McCain a hero hahahahaha ,he was never a hero.
The rep... are famous for making things sound great... than they
are.
Everything McCain do he lie about it or he blame someone els for
it
|10.22.08 @ 2:16PM|#
Since when did pointing out that the US involvement in Vietnam
was wrong and unjust suddenly equal defending the Vietcong? Saddam
was an evil bastard, too. That doesn't mean the war in Iraq is
right.
As for my original comment to that effect that got such brain-dead
responses as how I must be part of the "hard left" (yay, false
duality!), I notice that no one actually addressed the distinction
I was making- that just because John McCain was a hero as a POW
doesn't mean there was anything heroic about his pre-captivity
participation in an unjust war. He was not "defending his country",
nor was he "serving" it. The United States did not benefit in the
slightest because John McCain was willing to go bomb a country that
was absolutely no threat to us. The idea that any one who signs
over several years of their lives to the government- regardless of
the actual need to defend the country from any threat- is
automatically a "hero" who's "serving his country" is nothing more
than the same kind of irrational hero worship that says the cops
can do wrong. That doesn't mean I have any personal animosity
towards people in the military- I know and love several people who
are or have been in the military- it just means that I see nothing
ipso facto "heroic" about that fact. The idea that there is is pure
emotionalism, without a single rational argument to back it up.
|10.22.08 @ 2:17PM|#
Dan-
The US and the South Vietnamese was wrong.
The Vietnamese Communists were wrong.
There is absolutely nothing mutually exclusive about those two
statements.
|10.22.08 @ 2:18PM|#
Except the ones that are part of ethnic groups that are related to
Mongols/Koreans/Inuit/Ainu
Those aren't REAL Russians.
(i keed)
|10.22.08 @ 2:19PM|#
I have never believe the WAR story of McCain
it sounded to perfect to be tru,just to perfect.
Eveytime i hear the War story of/from McCain ,
I think by myself this story is Steven Spielberg story.
Everybody know that the rep are famous for lying and make good
story with lies.
McCain was the worst soldier in the war,he can not holt a plane in
the air.
McCain is NOT A WAR HERO
|10.22.08 @ 2:28PM|#
YOU CAN SAY ONE THING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST McCain
they are not calling for hate or
for his(McCain death) DEATH like the people who are at the McCain
/Palin raly>They are CALLING FOR HATE AND OBAMA DEATH and
more.
AND I AGREE WITH EVERYBODY WHO IS ANTI-McCain and ANTI-Palin.
|10.22.08 @ 2:49PM|#
I probably should have predicted that subtle irony wouldn't get
through to the black-and-white set. Let me make it a little more
explicit:
IF "they were fighting communists" is all you need to know to
declare a cause just and an army good guys, and
IF the Vietnamese Army fought communists when it invaded
Cambodia,
THEN the Vietnamese Army were good guys.
Of course, that's all bunk.
Billy Beck|10.22.08 @ 2:49PM|#
From Matt's selected correspondence: "If he weren't such a
lousy pilot to begin with, he would not have been shot down by WWII
era anti aircraft fire. Very few of the 600 POWS were A4
pilots."
It always appalls me to see ignoramuses blabbing about this stuff.
To describe the North Vietnamese air-defense environment so blandly
as 'WWII era anti aircraft fire" is an outrage. It stoutly ignores
the integration of those defenses, of which AAA
("anti-aircraft artillery") was one element. This is a person who
doesn't know enough to conceive and evaluate the facts of how it
all worked together: please consider that the MiGs (of which there
were never more than about ninety in service at any given time)
scored a mission-win if they were able to get F-105's to dump their
bomb loads for evasion before the strike reached the target. If
they were able to force a strike down into gun range or up into the
heart of the SAM envelope, then they were headed for a very good
day and our guys weren't.
As for his A-4 rubbish:
See Appendix B of Cdr. John B. Nichols' and Barrett Tillman's
"On Yankee Station" (1987). You will find that A-4's
comprised 257 of the total 711 Marine and Navy aircraft lost in
flight during the war. (The very first U.S. POW of the war -- Cdr.
Everett Alvarez, Aug. 5, 1964 -- was shot down in an A-4.) That's
the biggest loss of any type in naval service, and second only to
the USAF F-105's.
The reason why there were relatively few A-4 drivers as POWs is
because they were almost always killed in the shootdown. Breaking
both arms and a leg in the ejection is -- believe it or not --
probably the single biggest stroke of luck in McCain's whole
life.
Kolohe|10.22.08 @ 3:02PM|#
Except the ones that are part of ethnic groups that are
related to Mongols/Koreans/Inuit/Ainu
Those aren't REAL Russians.
(i keed)
Funny enough, the 'real' russians do not keed. Never I had
encountered so much white supremacy as when I dated a russian girl
and mingled with the russian expat community in the Eastern
Pacific. Ironically(?), she herself had a (north) Korean father who
had moved to Moscow before she was born.
Billy Beck|10.22.08 @ 3:08PM|#
Happy to help when I can, Matt.
You know me: I think John McCain should go home and get a real job,
like everybody else.
What I cannot stand is ignorance and lies.
|10.22.08 @ 3:19PM|#
I grew up an Army brat surrounded by men who shared the sterling
caliber and character of John McCain and not one of them,
especially those who served in combat in Viet Nam would ever say of
themselves they were "heroes", but those of us who stayed behind
and anxiously waited for them to come home safe knows that that is
exactly what they were.
None of you outsiders will EVER know the true cost in terms of pain
and suffering that military families go through and you will never
know the incredible strain on those families even in
peacetime.
What happened to John McCain, his wife and children during his
captivity is something that hundreds of families had to endure and
in many cases marriages that might have survived fell apart when
the POW came home.
Regardless, none of you judging the McCain's has ANY right to do so
and you are a shame and a blot on this country.
anyway, I doesn\'t do ironing|10.22.08 @ 3:32PM|#
I probably should have predicted that subtle irony wouldn't get through to the black-and-white set.
joe, why do you always have to bring race into it?
Or are you dissing our vintage teevees?
Billy Beck|10.22.08 @ 4:37PM|#
Jesus H. Christ. I can't believe that I let this get past me.
That correspondent of Matt's wrote: "If he weren't such a lousy
pilot to begin with, he would not have been shot down by WWII era
anti aircraft fire."
John McCain got tapped by an SA-2 surface-to-air missile. This is a
device about thirty feet long, designed to hunt you down in the air
under radar control at three times the speed of sound, with a four
hundred-pound high-explosive fragmentation warhead.
There were ways to deal with this threat but the conditions had to
be just about exactly perfect. If you could see the
launch, then the thing called for ice-cold nerve in timing a
maneuver more violent than the missile could manage. (This was
usually a break straight down, if you had the altitude for that.)
You had to watch it coming. (A B-52 pilot once described this. He
said that if the missile held its station in your windscreen no
matter how you were maneuvering, then you knew that it was guiding
on you. Think about that.)
Vietnam pilots have written about the "Dr. Pepper Setup": SAM
launches at 10, 2, and 4 o'clock. That sort of thing was just about
in God's hands, exclusively. It could happen to anyone. Randy
Cunningham had a superb day on May 10, 1972, burning three MiGs
(including one fight that will always be studied for as long as
people fly in combat), and he took an SA-2 straight down the throat
on his way home to the carrier.
Very few people know what they're talking about when it comes to
this stuff.
|10.22.08 @ 4:42PM|#
Joe,
funny enough, I think that the NVA, when it comes to their fight
against the Khemer Rouge, they probably WERE the good guys in that
fight.
Xanthippas|10.22.08 @ 5:52PM|#
This person has either never been married or has not been
married for very long.
I didn't realize that it was only a matter of time before a husband
calls his wife that. I can tell you that if I used that word to my
wife, she'd cut my balls off...as she should.
McCain went to Viet Nam to kill communists.
What part of "The communists killed 100 million in the last
century." do many here not understand?
Oversimplification has been the hallmark of the "debate" about
Vietnam. Anyone who doesn't realize that the Vietnamese communists
were nationalists before they were communists, and were not really
part of the great communist conspiracy to rule the world, is not
qualified to discuss the cold war or communism.
In fact all communists everywhere were murderous horrible
people.
Anyone who can type this with a straight face is similarly
disqualified. I find myself doubting that you've read even one
comprehensive book on the Vietnam war, or you could never possibly
think such a thing.
|10.22.08 @ 7:16PM|#
I am kind of curious as to why the comments I posted earlier today, dealing with the issue of John McCain's naval aviation career, never showed up here. However, if you are interested, the bulk of my comments were included in my article at the Daily Standard.
JamesB|10.22.08 @ 10:20PM|#
"He has fought the release of records of his time in Hanoi and
it instructive that none of the other prisoners have endorsed him
for President; indeed, several have endorsed Obama and expressed
real concern about a McC presidency."
Not at all true. Colonel Bud Day, a recipient of the Medal of
Honor, and the highest decorated officer in the history of the Air
Force, has not only endorsed McCain but actively supported him,
including appearing at the convention.
As well as numerous other POWs.
http://veterans.johnmccain.com/content/sitecontentmain.aspx?guid=a2889de1-4361-4945-a185-d58537034a5d
MlR|10.23.08 @ 1:21AM|#
"Let me help you out, Mark J.
The Khmer Rouge had several dozen members when we became involved
in Southeast Asia.
After we expanded the our bombing runs across the border into
Cambodia, and worked to undermine the Cambodian government in the
eyes of their public, the Khmer Rouge grew large enough to take
over the country.
We blocked efforts to sanction them in the UN when news of the
crimes reached the world.
They were eventually overthrown by the Vietnamese Army - the one we
had been at war with - who brought the killing fields to an
end.
So spare us your moral superiority games. Your good intentions
won't pay for one Buddhist monk's prayers for the dead."
We blocked attempts to sanction them, unjustly, as a matter of real
politik because we were worried that North Vietnam was going to
attempt to take over the whole of Indochina, having already turned
Laos into a colony. The North Vietnamese leadership clique had long
expressed the view that the goal of their party was to unify
Indochina in total, not just Vietnam.
Which brings us to the Khmer Rouge. The Khmer Rouge came out of the
Indochinese Communist Party - the same Indochinese Communist led by
Ho Chi Minhn. They were hooked at the hip with the North Vietnamese
leadership. They simply fell out with the North Vietnamese
Communists over the post-war spoils.
It is not surprising, however, that in your bizarro world the
people who tried the hardest to prevent the North Vietnamese use of
Cambodian territorian and subsequent Red Cambodian takover of the
country, in spite of plenty of useful idiots at home and abroad who
did everything possible and eventually succeeded in sabotaging it,
become the one responsible for their attrocities.
The first argument at the time was the Khmer Rouge were simply,
like the North Vietnamese Army, grass roots peasant heroes. The
second attempt was that they would not take over the country. The
third was that they were not carrying out attrocities and it was a
figment of right-wing imaginations. Chomsky's probably still
regretting that one. The fourth argument was that the attrocities
were the result of U.S. air bombing that forced the removal of
people from the cities - until it was proven that it was part of a
deliberate social engineering scheme to reduce the country back to
hour zero. The fifth argument, now the current one, is that - oh
yeah, there were goddawful attrocities, but it's all the U.S.'s
fault due to the complex series of actions and events that led to
them getting control of the country.
And people like you actually think they're clever and edgy that
they rationalize this rote nonsense. When at first you don't
succeed in blaming America, try, try again.
|10.23.08 @ 1:23AM|#
Headline: U.S. fought Hitler, responsible for Soviet occupation
of half of Europe and innumerable other events and attrocities
since the end of World War II. World outcomes occur in complicated
and unpredictable ways. Film at 10.
Brought to you by our friends at Chaos Theory is Us.
|10.23.08 @ 1:27AM|#
FU!!!!!
Since all of you liberal Aholes claim that we on the right are
bitter, racist, etc., Let me vent a moment.
As a retired 20 year Navy Vet I am positive that John McCain is a
hero. I would use him as a role model for my children any day,
unlike Prez wannabe BO.
Anyone who defends his country in the military has my vote as a
hero, especially all of those Viet Nam vets who all of you
left-wing pussies spat on and called baby killers.
I am thoughly disgusted in all of you and would challenge any of
you to go somewhere like Iran or Cuba or Venezuela and say the same
things about their leaders and see what would happen.
But since you live in the USA and people like John McCain and
myself have fought for your freedoms, you can say all of the crap
you want without fear of retribution, even if you don't deserve
it.
I hope on Nov 5th all of you will sit down, shutup and refrain from
crying "You stole the election", after your candidate gets his ass
whupped.
Wilkes&Freedom|10.23.08 @ 1:37AM|#
McCain himself did not declare war (it was an undeclared war) on
VietNam. He served there.
Discussions about the morality, validity and prudence of this
undeclared war are generally considered negative on behalf of
Libertarians.
The McCain campaign for POTUS, not to be unexpected uses John's
honorable service in said affair as heroic, especially in light of
his capture and POW status for many years.
Matt Welch points out that while he has criticized Mr McCain for
many years based on the latter's political record, he cannot sink
so low as to reduce every action of McCain's pre-political career
as worthy of unequivocal disdain.
In the process of writing a rare (and fair) defense of a man he
mostly vilifies based on voting record, he is flabbergasted by the
demonization of every aspect of his life by political furies.
Honestly, Matt, good on you; but really I wouldn't have expected
less than what was presented by RS or the negative commentary
streaming from your rebuttal.
Most people are incapable of rationally reviewing politics; most
have to reduce it (and its policy-makers) to their personal
judgements of the character of policy-makers which unfortunately
are handed to them through innuendo, urban legend, or rock-god
groupie-ism.
Even this thread illustrates that. It eventually devolved into who
was more righteous: the US or VietCong. Good God I thought
Libertarians were anti-War! None of us glorifies war (I hope) or US
involvement in VietNam; but we also don't praise Russian
involvement or VietCong despotism. And we certainly don't fault the
actions of those who honorably fought on the frontlines. That for
the most part wasn't their choice!
Gaunilon|10.23.08 @ 1:56AM|#
Why does their response surprise you? It's the left! Get in their way and they floor the accelerator.
Billy Beck|10.23.08 @ 2:52AM|#
"And we certainly don't fault the actions of those who
honorably fought on the frontlines. That for the most part wasn't
their choice!"
That is barely true, if at all.
I know of one fighter group vice-commander who is persona non grata
among survivors of the most lethal mission in the whole air war,
because he cheezed out on his choice. What he did actually ended up
on the table between Lyndon Johnson and Aleksei Kosygin in 1967,
and Johnson was the one with egg on his face. The man I'm talking
about was roasted on a slow-turning spit and his former brother
warriors will have nothing to do with him now, because he had the
choice to wear the uniform and do his job or step out and have his
say.
This example could be dismissed on the conditioner, "honorable".
There is a considerable ambiguity in the case, because this person
was fighting for his troops, who were fighting for their lives.
That would qualify as "honorable" to many, but the case involves
his inability to live up to his responsibility to execute orders.
To his former mates who did that with grim determination, it puts
him beyond the pale. In the words of one of them, "He could have
been a somebody, but he went out a whiner."
These people have standards that very few could live up to, and
when they're violated, it makes no difference whether the perp has
seen the elephant. He's out of the club.
Wilkes&Freedom|10.23.08 @ 3:29AM|#
Honestly Billy Beck,
I am defering to veterans such as yourself as to who was honorable
when I say honorable. I am NOT inferring that every participant was
a baby-killer, that lame post-facto condemnation, nor am I
ascribing heroism to every participant in the war.
I was merely pointing out that nearly every fighting troop is not
involved immediately in War decisions and therefore cannot be held
culpable for actions considered honorable. Not saying dishonorable
actions by Us forces weren't perpetrated; but also saying that most
did not engage in such activity and furthermore stating that the
highest moral hazard is applied to those who perpetrated the War in
the first place.
Wilkes&Freedom|10.23.08 @ 3:39AM|#
Billy Beck,
At the same time I deserve respect for insuring that my gov't enter
in foreign conflict for worthy cause without calling me out as
treasonous. Just as I don't disrespect those who serve in worthy
service in the defense of my country. In fact, I go beyond that by
recognizing and respecting those who have served in our many
undeclared wars. I only wish they would stop.
I think that is fair.
Billy Beck|10.23.08 @ 3:48AM|#
"I am defering to veterans such as yourself..."
Excuse me, sir: I have never served in the military. I am a
lifelong student of military aviation.
"I am NOT inferring that every participant was a
baby-killer,..."
I did not ever believe that you were. And, I would point out that
the case I referred to was nothing of the sort. It involved
grown-up combat that Washington had put off-limits. This incident
occurred precisely because the rules were ridiculous. Where it got
out of hand was when the man I'm talking about decided to attempt
covering it up because he didn't like the rules. Nobody
liked the rules, but he was the one who tried to sneak around them
instead of standing up straight -- on the outside -- and pointing
out the essential problem.
Consider this: these people made it a positive point of honor to
saddle-up every day and go to war even on ridiculous rules. "Yes:
we'll do it even though it's bullshit. We'll tie one hand behind
our backs and still go fight these bastards because that's
what we do. We are not pundits."
That's where he goofed.
Billy Beck|10.23.08 @ 3:50AM|#
"At the same time I deserve respect for insuring that my
gov't enter in foreign conflict for worthy cause without calling me
out as treasonous."
Emphatically agreed.
|10.23.08 @ 7:02AM|#
Good morning America
Good morning Americans
As you seen two comments from Barbara and Ruth Griffin as following
that cited From CNN Chief National Correspondent John King:
Barbara - 65 yr old white female in NC
October 20th, 2008 6:49 pm ET
I voted early to avoid the long lines.
Obama/Biden '08
Ruth Griffin
October 20th, 2008 6:47 pm ET
Go get COLORADO, Obama!!
Obama/Biden in '08!
Please forgive my mind because I scan the line:
"Obama/Biden '08"
like
"Osama/Binladen '08"
I am not a prophet for this issue, but I am suddenly
wondering...
Wishing America and other countries around the world a brighter
future.
|10.23.08 @ 1:32PM|#
Wilkes: Why would you think "libertarians are anti-war"?
Nothing in basic libertarian principles requires opposition to war;
it requires only opposition to aggressive war for Imperial
conquest.
It does not, of course, oppose defensive war in the slightest. Nor
does it in itself oppose war in the defense of
others from oppression.
Rand, who I generally disagree with (being more in sympathy with
Hayek or even Nozick, though not Rothbard), had a great insight
when she pointed out that a tyrannical state has no right to
exist at all*. War to overthrow such a state is not prohibited
by libertarian theory as such, any more (contra the LP's ridiculous
beliefs) than isolationist disengagement is required by
it.
(* At least, that's attributed to her, and sounds plausible as a
Rand quote. I haven't been able to find the original statement, but
it doesn't much matter, since I'm not arguing by authority
anyway.)
States are not individuals is an important thing to
remember. States have no rights; the individuals composing them
do.
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