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Frank Gaffney, Obama Truther
Neoconservative pundit Frank Gaffney, former deputy assistant secretary of Defense, has bid adieu to polite society with this column on "the Jihadist vote."
Another question yet to be resolved is whether Mr. Obama is a natural born citizen of the United States, a prerequisite pursuant to the U.S. Constitution. There is evidence Mr. Obama was born in Kenya rather than, as he claims, Hawaii.
What evidence? We have a newspaper announcement of Obama's birth in Hawai'i from 1961, and we have a Hawai'ian certificate of live birth. Obama did have Kenyan citizenship until he turned 21; as the son of Barack Obama, Sr, it was automatic. And it did not negate his American citizenship.
There is also a registration document for a school in Indonesia where the would-be president studied for four years, on which he was identified not only as a Muslim but as an Indonesian.
Here's the document. It does identify Obama as a Muslim and identifies Indonesia as his "nation of citizenship," but that's what his parents wrote down on their seven-year old son's school form. If Gaffney thinks this negates Obama's American citizenship, he doesn't understand the law.
If correct, the latter could give rise to another potential problem with respect to his eligibility to be president.
Completely false. The document lists Honolulu as Obama's "place and date of birth."
Curiously, Mr. Obama has, to date, failed to provide an authentic birth certificate which could clear up the matter.
False. I'll link it again. Unless Gaffney believes that the state of Hawai'i is forging documents for Obama, this is proof that he was born in Honolulu.
This is fever swamp, Vince Foster-was-murdered, Bush-blew-up-the-WTC stuff. Gaffney should be ashamed of himself for letting it go out under his name. Or perhaps he's auditioning for a slot on David Icke's next tour. There's more in Gaffney's column but none of it's going to get attention as long as he hitches his wagon to conspiracy theories. Maybe he'll get a slot on Hannity's America, but that's it.
UPDATE: Later in the column Gaffney cites Pennsylvania attorney Philip Berg, who's filed a frivolous lawsuit against Obama on this citizenship conspiracy theory. That would be this Philip Berg.
Now, it is time for world leaders to take the lesson learned from Iraq and issue a warrant for the arrest of George W. Bush and Richard Cheney; arrest them; take them to a neutral country; try them for the murder of over 2,800 people from more than 80 countries on 9/11/01 and, when found guilty, sentence them appropriately. Jurisdiction would be proper in any of the more than 80 countries whose citizens were murdered on 9/11.
I compared Gaffney's nonsense to 9/11 trutherism for a reason.
UPDATE II: This is pathetic: a Toledo station runs a "local hero"-type story on Berg, which puts legal documents from Hawai'i on equal footing with his fact-free claims. It's mind-boggling. On the one hand you have a government certificate that says Obama was born at 7:24 p.m. on 8/4/61 in Honolulu. On the other you have Berg's claim, from his lawsuit:
Obama’s grandmother on his father’s side, his half-brother and half-sister all claim Obama was born not in Hawaii but in Kenya. Reports reflect that Obama’s mother traveled to Kenya during her pregnancy; however, she was prevented from boarding a flight from Kenya to Hawaii at her late stage of pregnancy (which, apparently, was a normal restriction, to avoid births during a flight).
Notice the distinct lack of quotes and sources? It's because the "Obama's African family members claim he was born in Kenya" story is an internet myth. They have never claimed that. There is no such story. Go ahead and try to find it.
Lefiti|10.14.08 @ 11:43PM|#
Conspiracy nuts are the libertarian base. Who's really behind the nationalization of the banks?
|10.15.08 @ 12:00AM|#
Um, not to sound like a kook or anything, but, where is the raised seal? Never seen a birth certificate without one.
The Wine Commonsewer|10.15.08 @ 12:05AM|#
Honolulu is his date of birth?
Besides, Ohio isn't really a state and the Libertarian Party won
Texas.
Oh. Wait.
|10.15.08 @ 12:07AM|#
We don't have Obama's Certificate of Live Birth, we have Obama's "Certification of Live Birth". They aren't the same thing. Certification doesn't prove Obama's natural-born citizenship status, Certificate does. As of now, no one has seen Obama's Hawaii birth certificate, but Berg have reportedly secured Obama's Certified Kenyan Original Birth Certificate(One of three copies in the US) and will present this as evidence in court.
David Weigel|10.15.08 @ 12:08AM|#
Deadmeat - And I have Berg's medical records from his sex change operation. Seriously, did you not see the part of the post about him suing Bush for causing 9/11? He's a crazy person. He's got nothing.
|10.15.08 @ 12:09AM|#
We don't have Obama's Certificate of Live Birth, we have
Obama's "Certification of Live Birth".
Ok, I'll bite. So you are suggesting that the state of Hawai'i has
two different official documents, one called a "Certificate of Live
Birth" and another called a "Certification of Live Birth."
D'ya think maybe it's more likely that this particular state calls
their birth certificate a "Certification of Live Birth?"
Maybe?
David Weigel|10.15.08 @ 12:12AM|#
D'ya think maybe it's more likely that this particular state
calls their birth certificate a "Certification of Live
Birth?"
There is a difference between the slip of paper Obama's parents got
in 1961 and the paper Hawai'i issues today. But there's no legal
difference. To believe the Obama citizenship conspiracy you have to
believe a state is forging documents to elect Obama.
|10.15.08 @ 12:12AM|#
Get ready for four years of this. Personally, I think its a
waste of mental space.
We're going to be needing our resources to focus on what's wrong
with Obama's policies, not worrying about what the right wing fever
swamp is saying.
They are certainly not going to care what any libertarian
thinks.
|10.15.08 @ 12:14AM|#
Just got out my City of New York official birth certificate,
which I assure you is authentic (unless I'm part of the
conspiracy!)
It is titled "Certification of Birth."
There is no raised seal.
zoltan|10.15.08 @ 12:22AM|#
So if you have a certificate of live birth from a state in the United States, which says you were born in the United States, are you not automatically a citizen?
zoltan|10.15.08 @ 12:23AM|#
Oh, and WC? I walk past the Travis County Courthouse almost every day here in Austin, Texas. I feel a deeply intense desire to spit on its steps.
SIV|10.15.08 @ 12:25AM|#
I don't believe in 9/11 trutherism, I have no reason to doubt
Obama's citizenship,I think Vince Foster's death scene was tampered
with, and either pro or anti Castro Cubans, the Mafia or elements
of the CIA were responsible for the JFK assassination even if
LHOswald was the man who fired the fatal shot.I don't care if you
think this makes me a conspiracy theorist because:
The US Government just nationalized International and domestic
banking !!!!!!
Can't say I ever didn't want to watch the collapse of Western
Civilization.
|10.15.08 @ 12:27AM|#
By the way, has LoneWacko/Orange Line Special/24Ahead produced an official copy of his birth certificate for public inspection? I heard a rumour that he was born in a Pueblo outside of Guadalajara and smuggled across the border at age 3.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 12:45AM|#
former deputy secretary of Defense,
As a point of pedantry, he was a Deputy *Assistant* Secretary of
Defense. (and an Acting Assistant Secretary of Defense for a
time.)
"Deputy Secretary of Defense" is the number 2 guy at the Pentagon.
Dep Asst is generally three levels deeper (SecDef -> DepSecDef
-> UnderSecDef(Policy)-> AsstSecDef (Intl Sec Policy/Affairs)
-> DepAsstSecDef (Nuc Forces and Armed Control Policy)
Incidentally, according to Wikipedia, during the Reagan
administration Gafney was also appointed to the AsstSecDef for
International Security Affairs (his boss Richard Perle's job), and
acted in that position for several months, but was ultimately
rejected by the Senate. So apparently several people have thought
he's been a little too nutty for a long time.
|10.15.08 @ 12:47AM|#
Nigel Watt|10.15.08 @ 12:52AM|#
Just got out my City of New York official birth certificate, which I assure you is authentic (unless I'm part of the conspiracy!)
It is titled "Certification of Birth."
There is no raised seal.
My City of Houston one is titled "Certificate of Birth", so, as if
we needed it, we now have confirmation that various governments
call their birth certificates different things.
|10.15.08 @ 12:54AM|#
Kolohe - you know way too much about the Pentagon. You need to spend some time in the "trenches", my friend :D
Franklin Harris|10.15.08 @ 1:02AM|#
Neoconservative pundit Frank Gaffney, former deputy secretary of Defense, has bid adieu to polite society...
I dispute the notion that Gaffney has ever been a part of polite
society.
Orange Line Special|10.15.08 @ 1:02AM|#
The newspaper announcement could have been planted by the
grandparents, who wanted it in case of a divorce.
"We" don't have anything. FactCheck has some pictures they took.
And, they removed the camera-added data from those pictures after
posting them. (I know, I downloaded one of the before and one of
the after). And, that camera-added data was fishy to begin with;
there are reasonable explanations for that, but one would think
they'd know how to set the date on their camera.
Regarding the photos, even the spokeswoman for the state of
HI couldn't definitively say they weren't doctored. And,
in any case, photos like that aren't definitive
proof. Take those into a court of law and see what
happens.
Moreover, the suit isn't just over HI. It's over BHO losing his
citizenship later and never taking steps to get it
back.
Look, I already posted that this only has a 5% chance of being
true. And, I already warned people against spending too much time
on this.
However, since then I took a look at the response in
the docket (at or near the end). Go there and download the PDF
and take a look at it. If you were running for president and there
were this cloud, wouldn't you resolve the matter by being
open?
Almost nothing in that response is something that BHO
should have a problem with providing. In fact, one of the
"fact checks" assumed that everything's OK because he's supposedly
already provided it to others. Why won't he provide it in this
case?
BHO wants to be president of the U.S. Why won't he release his
application to colleges? It's obvious that either a) he's trying to
waste peoples' time, or b) he's trying to hide something. I think
it's the latter, and I think he's really scared of what will come
out.
But, once again, I urge everyone not to count on this and not to
spend time on it. Let Berg do his thing and see what happens.
But, don't pretend that this matter is settled or that BHO isn't
trying to hide something.
kbolino|10.15.08 @ 1:09AM|#
Let me qualify my statement by saying that I don't buy into any
of this crap about Obama's ineligibility to run for President. If
there were even slightly credible evidence, the FEC would have to
report it, FOX News if nobody else would be all over it, and Obama
would've been finished back in the primaries.
That having been said, if anyone could produce a faker looking
birth certificate (or whatever it's called), then I would be
shocked. I suppose I could quarter the image's size and reduce the
JPEG quality so you can barely read it, but barring that, I am
utterly astonished. The whole thing looks like it was thrown
together in Photoshop, and the only characteristic indicating it
might not be a digital original, that backwards stamped date, is in
the middle of a very strange empty field.
I'M NOT SAYING IT'S FAKE. But I know that if I scanned my birth
certificate, it would like I PHYSICALLY SCANNED A PIECE OF PAPER:
it would be crooked, there would be scan lines or variation of
background color, there would be little hairs and fuzz on the
scanner bed, and there would be a level of crispness to the ink
that this image lacks. Maybe it's just the small resolution of the
image, or maybe the State of Hawaii tinkers with the scanned images
to make them look like this. I don't know.
What I do know is that if I wanted to answer this question beyond
all reasonable doubt, then I would've done a hell of a better
job.
Uncharacteristically shoddy work from the Obama campaign.
Tom W (Fla. not FL)|10.15.08 @ 1:11AM|#
I still can't get over the fact that some people say he's a
Muslin, like this troglodyte up the road from me. I had
suspected this, knowing that some people already conflated "Muslin"
with "Muslim."
So we made this sign for your consumption.
|10.15.08 @ 1:12AM|#
Why can't folks just tell the truth? All you really have to say is, "He ain't white and he ain't christian and we don't want the boy to be president. Next thing you know, the niggers and the Ay-rabs and the metsicans will be runnin the whole goddamed country with their welfare and plantin their IUDs blowin shit up."
Secret Squirrel|10.15.08 @ 1:28AM|#
Read all about Obama's SECRET PLAN for a Black Socialist America! None dare call it conspiracy! Stop him before it's too late!!
|10.15.08 @ 1:30AM|#
kbolino,
That is not a scanned document. Those hatch marks in the
background? make it really hard to scan a piece of paper. It is an
electronic copy of a certificate of live birth issued by the State
of Hawaii.
Everyone knows Obama's original birth certificate was destroyed
when his mother suicide-bombed a church in Lubbock, TX.
Tom Walls (Fla. not FL)|10.15.08 @ 1:33AM|#
Brotherben, it's time we had that open-thread discussion on the
fabric of Obama's faith.
But remember any such discussion will be laced with blanket
statements.
Elemenope|10.15.08 @ 1:35AM|#
Articles like this sure bring out the crazies.
I wonder if that makes me one of the crazies.
After all, I was brought out by it.
To point out that it brought out the crazies.
Time for bed. Yup.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 1:38AM|#
Kolohe - you know way too much about the Pentagon. You need
to spend some time in the "trenches", my friend :D
Like Joker's CO said, as it happens, my present duties keep me
where I belong: in the rear with the gear.
gmatts|10.15.08 @ 1:44AM|#
I read Gaffney's piece and I'm at a loss to try and figure out
what this paragraph is stating (It seems as if there are some words
missing after the address for the link):
"As I pointed out in a debate on Tuesday (for a transcript, go to
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1447/pub_detail.asp)
with a man associated with both organizations and arguably the Bush
administration's senior Muslim official, Suhail Khan, the
Brotherhood is an instrument the Islamists have been using to
foster a Fifth Column in America. Its stated purpose in this
country is to "destroy Western civilization from within."
First, I didn't realize that there is an official "Bush
administration senior Muslim official".
Second, the point he's trying to make seems to be that Obama is
associating with a shady person. Yet he concedes that this person
(and, again, there are some words missing) also has ties to the
Bush administration.
Rove Wooed Idiots Come Back to|10.15.08 @ 2:53AM|#
Like Nappy said:
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
That is why the O'Bama campaign is letting this thing fester. It's
driving the GOP's (increasingly desperate) faithful around the
bend, and making them look like the crazed haters that they
are...to fully 85% of the electorate. What's not to like?
|10.15.08 @ 2:59AM|#
Any child of a US citizen is a natural-born US citizen if their
parent was a citizen when they were born. This is a red herring,
whether it's Obama, McCain, or any of the tens of thousands of
American born overseas every year.
-jcr
|10.15.08 @ 3:02AM|#
It's over BHO losing his citizenship later and never taking
steps to get it back.
Unless he repudiated his citizenship, he never lost it, and there's
no evidence at all that he did so. Obtaining Indonesian citizenship
doesn't mean that he gave up his American citizenship.
-jcr
shecky|10.15.08 @ 3:24AM|#
That having been said, if anyone could produce a faker
looking birth certificate
I can tell you that my birth certificate is a completely
unimpressive piece of paper. Any modern PC could easily make
something that looks the same. Or something that looks much better.
A hand drawn and mimeographed fake could look better.
|10.15.08 @ 3:46AM|#
Ya know, I think this whole story is garbage, but just to be
fair ...
There is a legitimate point to be made about the fact that Obama
spent most of just childhood outside the US. The portion he did
spend was in Hawaii, not part of the continental US. Thus, I think
it is legitimate to question his level of emotional commitment to
the nation.
The whole point of the "born in US" clause is not just to insert a
technicality for the sake of disqualifying people, but to ensure
that any President has a direct emotional commitment to the
country, from having been born and raised there.
Obama keeps going on about how wrong it is for anyone to question
his patriotism. He's using the same line that anti-war activists
use when they take umbrage at anyone suggesting that they kinda
want the US to lose. But in his case, it's worse, because there's a
lot more legitimate reason to wonder if a guy who spent his
formative years in Indonesia really gives a damn about the welfare
of people in Pensylvania.
Moreover, with Obama basically campaigning globally, it looks a lot
like he really does care about the welfare and opinions of people
in other countries more than he ought to.
It's a bit like we're in that late Empire period when the Ceasars
started getting selected from people that were born in in Spain or
North Africa instead of in Italy.
Asharak|10.15.08 @ 3:53AM|#
Articles like this sure bring out the crazies.
I wonder if that makes me one of the crazies.
After all, I was brought out by it.
To point out that it brought out the crazies.
Time for bed. Yup.
I'd love to see the crazies be forced to try and explain how Obama
can be a radical Muslim, but also be a liberal socialist who
supports abortion and gay marriage at the same time. Well, I
suppose he could be a Muslim and a socialist, but a real
fundamentalist radical Muslim would want abortionists and gays
killed, wouldn't he?
Oh, and Orange Line Special, your idol Palin doesn't want to
entirely fence off the border, either, and you already know all
about "Juan McAmnesty". I guess that puts you in a pickle over who
to vote for, doesn't it? What's a paranoid, single-issue nativist
to do?
Asharak|10.15.08 @ 3:57AM|#
Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, here's a
dumb sign that some loser in Missouri made.
http://pics.livejournal.com/pjoseph/pic/000016k5/s320x240
Dave W.|10.15.08 @ 5:15AM|#
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Vince Foster was murdered. I think Ron Brown was. Weigs needs to stop being so naive even though he came of age very suddenly as the Towers were falling.
JMR|10.15.08 @ 7:15AM|#
Republicans had best not go-there. The US military base had no hospital at the time of McCain's birth, which therefore probably happened in a Panamanian hospital in the Panamanian city of Colon, which isn't a part of the USA because it's just outside the Canal Zone. It's as bogus as the other argument about Obama if you take into account original intent, etc., but technicalities can come back to bite a campaign that looks for them.
Guy Montag|10.15.08 @ 7:56AM|#
That's it. If *either* the Dem or the Repub win this election I am leaving the country!
Abdul|10.15.08 @ 8:02AM|#
So, Frank Gaffney says Obama's not an American, so that leaves
me to vote for McCain.
And you know where he was born? Panama.
Bob Barr is from Georgia, but as I understand it, that is now a
part of Russia.
Can't we get any goddamned Americans running for president, or do
we have to outsource every job to these foreigners?
|10.15.08 @ 8:09AM|#
Funny you should mention "Vince Foster was Murdered"
stuff.
The Moonie Times ran that story over and over, too.
What a repellent human being, and what a repellent
organization.
ed|10.15.08 @ 8:12AM|#
Frank Gaffney, former deputy assistant
I don't know who's more desperate: Gaffney or Weigel. Relax, David.
The former deputy assistant is rearranging the deck chairs on the
Titanic and everyone seems to know it but you.
|10.15.08 @ 8:16AM|#
Excellent Abdul. After all of these disqualifications for
non-citizenship are announced we are in for the biggest October
surprise ever:
Alan Keyes is the only candidate eligible on the ballot.
But even if he was the only candidate on the ballot he would still
lose by 30 points.
|10.15.08 @ 8:19AM|#
I think there are a number of people, Frank Gaffney being one of
them, who have simply assumed all along that a black guy with a
Muslim name is going to inevitably lose this election. No matter
what the polls say, no matter what's going on in the news, they
maintained their faith in the basic indecency of the American
people.
And now it's dawning on them that it isn't true, and they're
freaking the hell out.
Mike Farmer|10.15.08 @ 8:23AM|#
I'm more concerned with the legitimate reasons Obama shouldn't be president, like his ultra-liberal tendencies to tax, spend, meddle and ignore individual rights in favor of special interest promotion using the muscle of the state. Of course that's based on my conspiracy theory that the Democrat's have cooked up a secret plan to institute social engineering in order to establish equality and justice. I know someone who has been in one of their secret meetings -- they gave him bumper stickers and stuff.
|10.15.08 @ 8:27AM|#
Washington's Northern Virginia suburbs - the heart of what
has been dubbed the "Wahhabi Corridor"
The hell? Where do these people get this stuff?
ed|10.15.08 @ 8:31AM|#
they maintained their faith in the basic indecency of the
American people
Indeed, one of the few positive aspects of this interminable
election is how race didn't play a major role. When no one
was looking the nation seems to have gotten past all that, making
professionals like Sharpton and Jackson obsolete almost
overnight.
|10.15.08 @ 8:36AM|#
http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=3324
The above link proves Bush knew about 911, I mean it proves Obama
was born in Kneya. I found the link here:
http://www.niggermania.net/forum/nigger-barack-hussein-obama/
Can there be any doubt? Racism is way funnier than rape.
Longtime Lurker|10.15.08 @ 8:49AM|#
"Gaffney should be ashamed of himself for letting it go out
under his name."
Shame is an emotion Frank hasn't had in a long time, if ever. Back
when I was a young junior analyst working for a beltway bandit, I
toiled on a weekly news clip service for a Navy customer. Frank's
column in the Washington Times was an endless source of amusement.
With the Russians in the scrapheap, he was obsessed with building
up China into a murderous, imminent threat to U.S. security in
order to justify continued Cold War levels of defense spending.
Even the retired military guys in our office thought he was
crazy.
|10.15.08 @ 8:54AM|#
Since Obama has been overseas numerous times, I presume he has a US Passport so his birth certificate was vetted by the US State Dept. - who've probably seen than a few 1961 Hawaii issued BC's. Case closed.
|10.15.08 @ 8:56AM|#
Geez, does that mean that the "birth certificate" that the State
of Hawaii sent me in 2001 is not valid either? It looks just like
Obama's. Oh, well, I never wanted to be president anyway.
Sounds to me like an awful lot of people have not applied for a
birth certificate in the last 10 or 20 years.
Ah, ignorance. The best foundation to build a conspiracy theory
on.
Guy Montag|10.15.08 @ 9:29AM|#
Isaac Bartram,
BTW, I believe in witches too. Was married for 10 years and all . .
.
|10.15.08 @ 9:54AM|#
I blame the Bildeburghers,Rothchilds, Illumnati, er, you know, the guys who do all this stuff.
|10.15.08 @ 9:57AM|#
Well, ed, it's certainly not for lack of trying.
That's what makes it so sweet.
|10.15.08 @ 10:02AM|#
The impending ass kicking at the polls has apparently driven
some GOP fanboys over the edge.
And I thought that libertarians had cornered the nutcase
market.
|10.15.08 @ 10:05AM|#
The whole point of the "born in US" clause is not just to
insert a technicality for the sake of disqualifying people, but to
ensure that any President has a direct emotional commitment to the
country, from having been born and raised there.
Actually, no. The qualification that's about the emotional
connection to the US is the third qualification for president,
"been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States". Shit,
it's amazing how little people know about the qualifications for
president.
The irony of this whole thing is that if there's one person that's
an ex post facto "natural born citizen", it's John McCain. You can
bet if BHO was the one born in Panama before people born in Panama
were considered natural born citizens, the conservashpere would be
in flames and there would be a case in front of the Supreme Court
before the election.
Abdul|10.15.08 @ 10:07AM|#
And I thought that libertarians had cornered the nutcase
market.
Note to self:
colloidial silver treatment sales are about to go through the
roof!
KT|10.15.08 @ 10:09AM|#
Why can't people just be honest about why they don't want Obama to be president, whatever those reasons may be?
|10.15.08 @ 10:13AM|#
Hawaii's not American enough?
But Alaska is, eh, Hazel?
Everyone knows if it wasn't for those damn Hawaiians, we'd never
have gotten involved in WWII. Splitters.
Caveman|10.15.08 @ 10:15AM|#
I suspect Barack Obama is racking up the "fanboy" vote a lot more than the GOP ever will. Those fanboys just luurrrrve them some leftist ass smacking Daddy-Obama. Weigel's Daddy's favorite, I've heard.
|10.15.08 @ 10:18AM|#
unsweetness, that reminded me of the "man marries pineapple" story someone linked to the other day. hehehe
|10.15.08 @ 10:20AM|#
This is all just prologue to 4 years of baseless accusations that Obama stole the election and another case of the projection the conservatives do so insanely. Bush actually steals the election in 2000 even though he loses the popular vote by 500,000 and now Obama steals the election even though he wins in a landslide.
|10.15.08 @ 10:22AM|#
That's was me. You got something against pineapples? Go to the ananas comosus side of town after dark and talk that shit. You wouldn't last five minutes.
rhywun|10.15.08 @ 10:23AM|#
My original Monroe County (NY) birth certificate is called a "birth certificate". When I need a copy they issue me a "certification". Both are stamped, FWIW...
Dave|10.15.08 @ 10:23AM|#
"Why can't people just be honest about why they don't want
Obama to be president, whatever those reasons may be?"
Most of the time they are, and they list things like his leftist
extremism, his desire to spread the wealth around, his false
promise of a tax cut for 95% of Americans, his desire for even
bigger government spending than George Bush has given us, his
socialist health care plan, his willingness to be a member of an
America hating church for twenty years, his suspicious ties to
Acorn, his suspicious ties to Ayres, Odinga, Rezko, the corrupt
Chicago political machine, etc.
But they get called racist anyway, which is what I suspect you were
driving at.
-|10.15.08 @ 10:25AM|#
"Bush actually steals the election in 2000 "
Still whining about that, huh? Pot meet kettle.
bubba|10.15.08 @ 10:26AM|#
The most interesting part of this is that Obama is a Muslim
apostate, and that could be very interesting when dealing with
Muslim nations.
Personally, I see that as a reason to vote for him. One more way to
screw with medieval fcktards.
|10.15.08 @ 10:26AM|#
Look, I don't care what species a fruit is. Why is everybody but
me so obesessed with the color and texture of a fruit's skin?
I'm just talking about culture. That nasty, corrupt pineapple
culture. That's where you find The Real Fruitists.
|10.15.08 @ 10:27AM|#
I wouldn't be at all surprised if Vince Foster was murdered.
I think Ron Brown was. Weigs needs to stop being so naive even
though he came of age very suddenly as the Towers were
falling.
Yep. It's all part of the HFCS/Freemason thing. The proof is
[redacted by Homeland Secrity].
|10.15.08 @ 10:32AM|#
That's it. If *either* the Dem or the Repub win this
election I am leaving the country!
To which nation do we semd condolences?
|10.15.08 @ 10:33AM|#
I don't care what you fruitists say: A Tribe Called
Bromeliaceae put out some damn fine albums.
But, I do admit that the fruit community's dismissal of education
as too vegetable is troubling.
-|10.15.08 @ 10:33AM|#
Democrat poll
worker jumps on the back of a 75 year old McCain poll worker and
beats him in the head
Good god, even made up stuff doesn't get better than this.
|10.15.08 @ 10:37AM|#
Bush actually steals the election in 2000 even though he
loses the popular vote by 500,000 and now Obama steals the election
even though he wins in a landslide.
Two points.
Bush won the 2000 election.
It's been almost 8 fucking years. Quit your whinging, you bore
people.
|10.15.08 @ 10:39AM|#
That story is a perfect blend of funny and sad. Now, if we can only count on every fraudulent ballot resulting in a fistfight between the elderly, I imagine none of them would make it through.
|10.15.08 @ 10:47AM|#
Get a load of this hilarious video for morons about Sarah
Palin...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRoiVWfLyU&eurl=http://www.johnmccain.com/about/governorpalin.htm?s=google&t=proven&r=palin
Notice the comments at the bottom...all positive and all made about
a month ago!!! LOL
Virgil|10.15.08 @ 10:48AM|#
"The hell? Where do these people get this stuff?"
I saw it documented on The Internet at 8:27 AM.
The Democratic Republican|10.15.08 @ 11:27AM|#
John C. Randolph | October 15, 2008, 2:59am | #
Any child of a US citizen is a natural-born US citizen if their
parent was a citizen when they were born. This is a red herring,
whether it's Obama, McCain, or any of the tens of thousands of
American born overseas every year.
-jcr
Not true. You have to be born on (some type of) American soil to be
natural-born. As someone suggested, this is probably the reason
McCain is not pressing the issue.
And Vince Foster was m0rdered.
Slim Tyranny|10.15.08 @ 11:36AM|#
Hazel Meade blathers: "There is a legitimate point to be made
about the fact that Obama spent most of just childhood outside the
US. The portion he did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the
continental US. Thus, I think it is legitimate to question his
level of emotional commitment to the nation."
Congrats, Hazel, you failed to make a legitimate point.
I am consistently impressed with the level of stupid attained by
the conspiracy theorists in their insane pursuits.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 12:17PM|#
The portion he did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the
continental US. Thus, I think it is legitimate to question his
level of emotional commitment to the nation.
Slim just narrowed;y beat me. Hawaii's been a goddamn state all of
Obama's life. And the whole Dec 7 thing doesn't reflect a two-way
'emotional commitment?'
t's a bit like we're in that late Empire period when the
Ceasars started getting selected from people that were born in in
Spain or North Africa instead of in Italy.
By this logic, all presidents should have been born in the original
13 colonies, and all those Ohio prez's are illegitimate. (to say
nothing of the Texas, Nebraska, California ones)
|10.15.08 @ 12:36PM|#
The portion he did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the
continental US. Thus, I think it is legitimate to question his
level of emotional commitment to the nation.
WOW. Not only are you questioning Barack's commitment to the
nation, you are questioning every Hawaiian's as well! Impressive...
you fucking bigot.
|10.15.08 @ 12:47PM|#
Well, as I said, I do think the whole issue is sorta crap.
I just think there is a legitimate point burried there. This guys
earliest memories of childhood are from Indonesia. He didn't return
to Hawaii until he was 10.
I moved when I was 11 and still consider the place where I was
under 11 as the place were I am "from originally". That's home to
me, and I suspect that Indonesia is more than just a place on the
map to Obama. It's his childhood home. Hawaii is not even his
mother's home, it's were he was sent to live with his grandparents.
That makes it less home.
And I do think that Alaska is somewhat removed, but at least you
can drive there. When you live in the continental US, you interact
with people from other states all the time. Not so much in Hawaii,
where people have to fly there.
You have to be a bit obtuse to bury your head in the sand and
pretend that spending all of your pre-adult life outside the 48
contiguous continental states isn't going to affect your
perspective and you ability to relate to the majority of
Americans.
It explains a bit about his cultural snobbery in his "clinging to
guns and religion" remark. As well as the perception of elitism.
people get that there's something "removed" about him, and it may
well be that they are picking up on his being raised significantly
in a foreign country.
Doctor Memory|10.15.08 @ 1:12PM|#
A thread like this is really just no fun without Chris "Lone Bedwetter" Kelly chiming in. I wonder where he is: did the MexicanGovernment SecretService finally SilenceHim?
Jim Henley|10.15.08 @ 1:16PM|#
As well as the perception of elitism. people get that there's something "removed" about him, and it may well be that they are picking up on his being raised significantly in a foreign country.
According to the polls, particularly the internals, "people" don't
"get" this at all.
|10.15.08 @ 1:56PM|#
I defy anyone to find a statement about people from small towns
in red states comparable to what Hazel is arguing.
But Sarah Palin is just being picked on.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 2:14PM|#
You have to be a bit obtuse to bury your head in the sand
and pretend that spending all of your pre-adult life outside the 48
contiguous continental states isn't going to affect your
perspective and you ability to relate to the majority of
Americans.
Speaking of fucking obtuse, how bout the ability of a person who
spends their entire life in Bismark, ND or Flushing, NY to relate
to the majority of americans? How representantive are they? They're
more different from each other than each is from a resident of
Kaneohe.
Between the tourism and the military, a resident of Hawaii meets a
lot more different types of americans than the average mid-american
joe blow, Cokie Roberts Ms. Meade.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 2:16PM|#
And I do think that Alaska is somewhat removed, but at least you
can drive there. When you live in the continental US, you interact
with people from other states all the time. Not so much in Hawaii,
where people have to fly there.
You can't drive to Juneau unless you put your car on a boat.
|10.15.08 @ 2:21PM|#
When you live in the continental US, you interact with
people from other states all the time. Not so much in Hawaii, where
people have to fly there.
Last I checked, there are an assload of people from the other 48
states that go to Hawaii. They're usually in the form of tourists
and conventioneers. However, a lot more people from the continental
48 states go to Hawaii than go to Alaska. Hawaiians play American
sports, like football. Alaskans play Canadian/Soviet sports, like
hockey.
|10.15.08 @ 3:02PM|#
"Democrat poll worker jumps on the back of a 75 year old McCain
poll worker and beats him in the head"
To be fair, the Democrat was a 73 year old woman.
Doctor Memory|10.15.08 @ 3:13PM|#
"And I do think that Alaska is somewhat removed, but at
least you can drive there. When you live in the continental US, you
interact with people from other states all the time. Not so much in
Hawaii, where people have to fly there."
Aren't you just a little bit embarrassed about typing out
something this ridiculously dumb?
If not, let me suggest that you reconsider.
|10.15.08 @ 3:44PM|#
"There is a legitimate point to be made about the fact that
Obama spent most of just childhood outside the US. The portion he
did spend was in Hawaii, not part of the continental US. Thus, I
think it is legitimate to question his level of emotional
commitment to the nation. "
Emotional commitment? So where does that leave people who are born
and raised in the Confederate states?
"You have to be a bit obtuse to bury your head in the sand and
pretend that spending all of your pre-adult life outside the 48
contiguous continental states isn't going to affect your
perspective and you ability to relate to the majority of
Americans."
You have to be pretty obtuse to assert that someone from Hawaii is
somehow less able to relate to the majority of Americans that some
blowjob-queen cheerleader from a welfare queen non-lower 48 state
like Alaska. You can drive to Alaska, through a furrin country, but
the point is that no one with any sense does go to Alaska unless
they have to, unlike Hawaii.
|10.15.08 @ 3:45PM|#
If Obama was born in Kenya, wouldn't there be evidence that his mom was IN Kenya at the time of birth?
el ranchero|10.15.08 @ 3:50PM|#
Not conspiracy nuts! CITIZEN JOURNALISTS!!!
Remember the cardinal rule of CITIZEN JOURNALISTS!!: when it
implies something that goes against the party line, it "smells
fishy." It would be irresponsible not to speculate!
|10.15.08 @ 3:51PM|#
Would one of you originalists out there please tell me which of the first 20 or so guys to be elected president had to come up with a Certificate (or Certification) of Live Birth to qualify for the office? If Washington (or Martin Van Buren, the first President [reputedly] born after July 4, 1776, when there was a United States to be a natural-born citizen of) didn't need a scrap of paper issued by a government to prove his eligibility, why should Obama or McCain?
|10.15.08 @ 4:21PM|#
Note that I have not at all commented on Palin. But you're all
papering right over the fact that even if Obama did spend his later
childhood in Hawaii, the other half was in Indonesia. No comments
on that point, I see.
There's a lot more internal travel within the 48 states than there
is between the 48 and Hawaii. And the travel isn't all concentrated
on tourism.
Meeting lot of tourists gives one about the same exposure to US
culture as someone from Mexico, or a Carribean Island, or any other
place American tourists go. Not at all equivalent to living in one
of the 48 states.
Lot of people before me have commented on the fact that Hawaii
almost "feels like" a foreign country. This isn't anything
new.
So he spent half his childhood in Indonesia, and then was sent away
to live with his (racist) grandma in Hawaii. He didn't really get
to spend a lot of time travelling around the major 48 states until
he turned 18 and went away to college.
thoreau|10.15.08 @ 4:26PM|#
Jim-
I've seen that birth certificate before. In fact, now that it's
been linked to TWICE, I know it must be real!
|10.15.08 @ 5:04PM|#
Um, people? McCain was born in Panama. His dad was in the navy,
remember?
Being born anywhere in the world to an American parent makes you a
"natural-born American citizen".
So even if he WAS born in Kenya, who cares? Again, McCain was born
in Panama. Can we move on now?
|10.15.08 @ 5:12PM|#
At Factcheck, the people who examined the certificate were
"Factcheck staffers." They lack
the authority to certify it as they are not document experts. Even
if certified, absolute
proof of birth requires witness signatures and hospital
records.
At the end factcheck says the document is sufficient to prove
citizenship for "all
reasonable purposes." That means it's good enough to get a job etc.
Proof of eligibility
for POTUS requires a document that is better than just for
"reasonable purposes."
It's just absurd that people think this is good enough for the
world's most important job.
Kolohe|10.15.08 @ 5:57PM|#
Lot of people before me have commented on the fact that
Hawaii almost "feels like" a foreign country. This isn't anything
new.
At least on this thread, you're the only one one, wahine.
There's a lot more internal travel within the 48
states
I would bet money cash money there's more travel between Hi and Nv
(or Hi and Ca) than between North Dakota and every other state
combined.
Meeting lot of tourists gives one about the same exposure to US
culture as someone from Mexico, or a Carribean Island, or any other
place American tourists go. Not at all equivalent to living in one
of the 48 states.
And for the last thing I'll post on this stupid topic, if you think
the cultural differences between Yonkers, NY, Blacksburg, VA,
Orlando, FL, Charleston, SC, Groton, CT, San Diego, CA and Macon,
GA are no more extreme than the ones between each of those and
Honolulu, *you* are the one that needs to see some the country.
|10.15.08 @ 6:19PM|#
Kolohe: How about the cultural differences between Indonesia and
Yonkers, Orlando, et. al.?
Keep in mind I'm not necessarily saying it disqualifies Obama. I'm
merely saying that it's not completely unreasonable to wonder if
someone who was raised partly in a very foreign place, and never
spent much time in the continental US until after he turned 18,
really feels a strong sense of connection to it.
To me it is an open question, and it's wrong to attack anyone who
raises it, call them a bigot, or assume that they've got some kind
of agenda. The Obama supporters would do better to address this
honestly then to lump everyone who has those concerns in with
racists and right-wing conspiracy theorists.
|10.15.08 @ 6:28PM|#
Oh Hazel...unless you have a passport, you can NOT drive to
Alaska these days, but you CAN fly to Hawaii without one.
The rest of your argument is just
embarrassingly...well...embarassing.
|10.15.08 @ 7:40PM|#
According to the law, the same one that makes my first daughter an American though born abroad, a person born to an American citizen is an American citizen. Case closed. Can we get on with the issues, now?
|10.16.08 @ 10:46AM|#
Actually, while a child born overseas is automatically a citizen
if both parents are citizens, there are restrictions if only one
is.
And being a citizen at birth is considered "native born."
After all there was never any question that born in Mexico George
Romney was eligible to run for prez.
That said, there are requirements to register the birth and make
the claim of citizenship. While there is no question that my french
cousin (born to an American mother and Hungarian father) was
eligible for citizenship at birth he would have a hard time
claiming it now that he's over forty and his parents are dead.
Mobius|10.16.08 @ 3:58PM|#
There's a simple solution to this - produce the actual long-form
birth certificate (that green thing ain't it, folks) listing the
vitals, hospital and attending physician.
Why have this loose end out there when all they have to do is
produce an original document ( as opposed to a print-out ).....if
one exists?
|10.16.08 @ 4:20PM|#
It is proven that the birth certification Obama claims to be genuine is a forgery. It is a second rate attempt to look like the legitimate item. Please take the time to examine the facts before giving an opinion on this site. An objective, non-emotional study of the facts proves the certification is a fake. However, Obama may still be a US citizen. He simply has an obligation to clear up this matter by providing a true copy of his certificate of birth. Why would anyone provide a forgery that has been verified as a fake through forensic analysis, when a true copy of the document will resolve this entire issue? Where there is smoke there is usually fire....
|10.17.08 @ 7:43PM|#
You have to be a bit obtuse to bury your head in the sand
and pretend that spending all of your pre-adult life outside the 48
contiguous continental states isn't going to affect your
perspective and you ability to relate to the majority of
Americans.
How about not just your pre-adult life but your whole goddamn life?
Mrs. Palin only got her passport last year. John
McCain may as well have nominated Puerto Rican governor Aníbal
Acevedo Vilá.
An objective, non-emotional study of the facts proves the
certification is a fake.
Links?
|10.18.08 @ 2:10AM|#
I'm not saying that Obama's Certification of Birth is a forgery, I'm just saying I'm not sure I believe that his mother's maiden name is "McLovin".
Johnny B. Good|10.18.08 @ 7:23PM|#
Mark,
Check this quick tutorial out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd5gm8XKv_w
It is the proverbial tip of the iceberg. The "certification" is
fake... a second rate Photoshopped forgery. But you'll probably
like the accompanying music...
|10.20.08 @ 1:18AM|#
That video was not very convincing. Let's see a well-researched
article with expert opinion. I'm going to err on the side of
caution and assume he's a citizen, natural born.
Meanwhille, a quick google search on McCain's citizenship
status:
NYTimes
article
Actual
legal opinion
WaPo:
Obama Backs Law Helping McCain
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