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"Now, We Have No Work. We Are Not Free."
Your morning shot of misery comes from Monica Rohr in aptly-named Postville, Iowa, the scene of an immigration raid that swept, blew, rampaged—pick your hurricane metaphor—the immigrant population that was making the town liveable.
Red ribbons, symbolizing support for the detained workers, still flutter from lamp posts and tree trunks. A sign on one front lawn near the Agriprocessors plant declares: "Immigrants Welcome. Bienvenidos."
"We've got a lot of people here who need help. We can't just throw them out on the street," said the silver-haired mayor. "They're our family. They've made their homes here, had jobs here, raised families here."
As with a disaster, the initial mobilization has been followed by shifting emotions - quiet anger at the federal government's actions; outrage at allegations of abusive working conditions at the plant; and above all, worry.
No one could have predicted this:
The Mexican and Guatemalan families who once pushed strollers along the streets or frequented the downtown stores and restaurants now try to stay out of sight.
In their place are newcomers drawn, as they were, by reports of job openings at Agriprocessors, or recruited by labor agencies contracted by the plant. Many of the new workers are Somali men who keep to themselves and gather to share food and coffee at a storefront on Postville's main drag.
Stories like this remind me of Hazelton, Penn., the town famous for Mayor Lou Barletta's anti-illegal immigration ordinances. Barletta, of course, is now running for Congress.
Elemenope|8.19.08 @ 10:11AM|#
People who look different are not human.
People who speak a different language are not human.
People who are not human do not deserve dignity, sanctuary, or a
means to elevate their station above what it is.
Have I summed it up OK, Lonewacko?
Or am I an unwitting shill for BigForeignGovernments?
|8.19.08 @ 10:20AM|#
To me, open borders is the great libertarian issue of our day,
with clear lines between right and wrong and very little room for
nuance.
(Yeah, I'm lookin' at you, Wacko.)
Unfortunately, guys like Paul, and Barr to a lesser extent, seem to
be on the wrong side. I'm still voting for the Libertarian
candidate for president, however, in hopes of better things to
come.
|8.19.08 @ 10:20AM|#
Well, at least all those white people who got their jobs taken away will flood back into to town to fill them.
Nigel Watt|8.19.08 @ 10:21AM|#
Paul and Barr add an unnecessary extra step to the immigration issue: close the borders, get rid of welfare, then open them up again. I prefer opening them up and eliminating welfare, without the weird cul-de-sac.
:-/|8.19.08 @ 10:28AM|#
Maybe you could address the issues instead of baiting the neighborhood trolls? It gets old.
|8.19.08 @ 10:34AM|#
Oh, poor Agriprocessors! They have lost their
Latin slave labor force. But they are resourceful, now they are now
using Ethiopians and underage kids, they have been indited for
violating child labor laws.
TallDave|8.19.08 @ 10:38AM|#
I often wonder why no one comments on the obvious causal link between reduced demand for housing and falling real estate prices.
|8.19.08 @ 10:40AM|#
LMNOP,
You've got it all wrong. It's not about race or ethnicity. It's
about security and the rule of law. Rounding these people up for
the heinous crime of working for pay is justified because they have
broken our laws.
Excuse me, I mean OurLaws.
|8.19.08 @ 10:40AM|#
"Maybe you could address the issues instead of baiting the
neighborhood trolls? It gets old."
Does this constitute meta-trolling?
|8.19.08 @ 10:43AM|#
CN,
No. It basically just amounts to whining.
Meta-trolling is trolling the trolls, not defending them from the
criticism they so richly deserve.
Episiarch|8.19.08 @ 10:50AM|#
Ok, SF, but there really needs to be a name for trolling
about trolls.
Trolling^2
(trolling squared for those not familiar with power notation in
code--the reason comment box won't recognize superscript tags)
|8.19.08 @ 10:53AM|#
Many of the new workers are Somali men who keep to
themselves and gather to share food and coffee at a storefront on
Postville's main drag.
Be careful what you wish for...
(what, no khat?)
|8.19.08 @ 10:55AM|#
What's truly surprising is the absence of out-of-work mortgage brokers applying for these chicken plucking jobs. I can't understand it.
|8.19.08 @ 10:56AM|#
trolling about trolls could simply be "baiting," (to be
distiguished from "'batin") but actually calling a troll to a
thread is "summoning."
Now, if you are talking about people who defend trolls (real
trolls, not contrarians or passionate non-libertarians) they are
almost always sock-puppets of the trolls themselves. If they
actually are someone sticking up for the troll, especially with a
drive-by insult post of their own, I support Epi's "troll^2."
People who try to control how the thread is going, the "let's get
back on topic" people already have a name: "douchebags."
|8.19.08 @ 11:00AM|#
Ok, Paul Harvey. That's three San Fransicso murders committed by
one IllegalAlien.
And how many murders have been committed by U.S. citizens this
year? Oh, that's right, more than 50 and counting. We really need
to do something about those damn Americans.
|8.19.08 @ 11:07AM|#
People who try to control how the thread is going, the
"let's get back on topic" people already have a name:
"douchebags."
I don't mind people trying to get threads back on topic, if they're
posting something substantive in the process.
So, doing pretty much exactly what I'm not.
Alice Bowie|8.19.08 @ 11:39AM|#
Listen Hugh Akston
Being an illegal alien is, in fact, breaking the law.
So is
- DWI (kills over 16,000 people per year)
- Minor Marijuiana offenses (Keep Dope Alive)
- Drive 80mph in a 65mph
The penality for being an illegal Alian is FAR TOO HIGH and TOO
mean-spirited...and appears to be RACIST since these LAWS
that u are so proud of didn't come into affect until non-europeans
started coming to america.
|8.19.08 @ 11:52AM|#
Addiction to cheap labor causes myopia, tunnel vision and mental
disorders.
It causes one to not care a tinker's damn for his fellow citizens,
the laws
of his country and for what is right and just. The disease of
addiction to
cheap labor cannot be cured; it can only be controlled. It is an
insidious
disease that manifests itself in those that embrace illegal aliens
into the
work force. Those individuals addicted to cheap labor as a means of
their
existence must be quarantined; otherwise greedy, selfish, weak
minded,
spineless and other easily infected people could be infected with
this
horrible, debilitating disease
|8.19.08 @ 11:55AM|#
Facts thru the Mist.
They are real flesh & blood people who arnt asking for
hand-outs.
The families they speak of are mostly American citizens.
The employers, the city, the people of Postville are all suffering
desperately.
Our Federal Govt has a clear history of resolving the issue for the
best of all parties, check it out.
Federal Tax rolls will decline as a result of the raid.
The future of the city is bleak.
If this were to happen again, in a larger city with a larger raid.
it would be a total disaster for a lot more than just the hispanic
crowd.
Alice Bowie|8.19.08 @ 11:56AM|#
Hey SuperSam
I agree with the cheap labor thing. Perhaps they should pay those
immigrants more. But, boy will that TOMATO cost a lot of money.
Kolohe|8.19.08 @ 12:01PM|#
that swept, blew, rampaged-pick your hurricane
metaphor
I would think that tornado metaphors would be more appropriate for
Iowa.
|8.19.08 @ 12:06PM|#
If you really thought hard on it you would realize that in the end you would suffer from this catastrphic, be reasonable or ask yourself is it just hate?
|8.19.08 @ 12:10PM|#
If you really want to dig deep into this subject check out the blog at www.contempomag.com about HR 4088. & see what the budget office says about lossing the labor of illegal immigration. its not just about the tomatoes, your taxes will go thru the roof.
|8.19.08 @ 12:55PM|#
Is it just me, or is the title of this post actually a
self-Godwinizing reference to concentration camps?
You know, the ones with "Arbeit macht Frei" over the entrance.
|8.19.08 @ 1:16PM|#
"""Those individuals addicted to cheap labor as a means of
their
existence must be quarantined; otherwise greedy, selfish, weak
minded,
spineless and other easily infected people could be infected with
this
horrible, debilitating disease""""
Nice. But they do it to supply those addicted to cheap goods. Those
addicted to cheap goods should be punished the same. Maybe we
should turn Wal-mart into internment camps.
Anonymous|8.19.08 @ 1:44PM|#
David Weigel wrote:
the immigrant population that was making the town liveable
Your article doesn't explain this statement, unless you use the
second blockquote as an oblique observation of the effects of
changing cultures on living conditions. The town's cultural makeup
certainly is changing, which is what most of the Rohr article
remarks upon.
So what part of this has to do with the "liveable"? If nothing,
then the remark is wrong. If it has to do with the penalties
imposed on the illegal immigrants, then it's misleading (you would
rather say that it's changed the illegal immigrants' ability to
live there, and thus the law should change). If it's to do with the
changing culture (Somali violence? I only skimmed the article, but
I didn't see any mention of it), then it's misplaced.
I really want to criticize such a broad statement, but I just don't
know where you got it.
Sincerely,
Anonymous
|8.19.08 @ 1:56PM|#
So what part of this has to do with the
"liveable"?
I'd have guessed it was the part where taking away the immigrants
destroyed the town's economy. It's a bit tougher to keep your job
at the grocery store (or keep the store open at all) when a quarter
of your town's population gets snatched by the feds.
|8.19.08 @ 1:59PM|#
Is it just me, or is the title of this post actually a
self-Godwinizing reference to concentration camps?
It's a quote from the article.
"Before, we tolerated everything they did to us at the plant. We worked very hard, but we lived free," said Fidelina, 37. "Now, we have no work. We are not free. And we have no idea what will happen to us."
|8.19.08 @ 2:43PM|#
I bet it would suck if you worked at a restaurant that made its
profits catering to Mafia families, and then those same Mafia
families got thrown in jail.
Doesn't mean Mafia activities should be legal, does it? Sounds to
me like people who have already made up their minds on the issue
are jumping all over this sob story like a starving squirrel on the
last peanut on earth.
asdfaf|8.19.08 @ 2:54PM|#
Being an illegal alien is, in fact, breaking the law.
So is
- DWI (kills over 16,000 people per year)
- Minor Marijuiana offenses (Keep Dope Alive)
- Drive 80mph in a 65mph
The penality for being an illegal Alian is FAR TOO HIGH and TOO
mean-spirited
What. The penalty (if you don't commit identity theft) is
deportation. That's like making somebody who's speeding go
slower.
|8.19.08 @ 3:13PM|#
I bet it would suck if you worked at a restaurant that made
its profits catering to Mafia families, and then those same Mafia
families got thrown in jail.
Doesn't mean Mafia activities should be legal, does it?
Your analogy is intriguing... in a clinical sort of way. Why don't
you go ahead and explain why "worker in a chicken processing plant"
is more similar to "member of the Mafia" then whatever it is
you do for a living.
Fed Up |8.19.08 @ 3:22PM|#
"We've got a lot of people here who need help. We can't just
throw them out on the street," said the silver-haired mayor.
"They're our family. They've made their homes here, had jobs here,
raised families here."
Sounds like that mayor could use a nice long stretch in the Federal
pen for about 900 counts of aiding and abetting violations of
Federal law.
What do our brilliant economists have to say about this?
shecky|8.19.08 @ 3:25PM|#
What. The penalty (if you don't commit identity theft) is
deportation. That's like making somebody who's speeding go
slower.
More like taking the speeder's car away, regardless that the
speeder needs it to earn a paycheck.
I bet it would suck if you worked at a restaurant that made its
profits catering to Mafia families, and then those same Mafia
families got thrown in jail.
Doesn't mean Mafia activities should be legal, does it?
Does working at the Agriprocessors plant = Mafia activities? Is
earning a paycheck anywhere similar to racketeering, extortion,
etc?
The crazy thing is that Americans don't want the jobs, they were
filled without trouble until the Feds decided to step in. Now, the
employer is enduring hardship, the workers are enduring hardship,
the taxpayers are enduring hardship through
incarceration/deportation costs/lost taxes, and Americans still
don't want the work, forcing the company to find immigrants from
halfway around the world.
There is a simple solution here. Something about smaller, less
intrusive government. But that's just crazy talk.
GG|8.19.08 @ 3:37PM|#
Your morning shot of misery comes from Monica Rohr in
aptly-named Postville, Iowa
That article was very depressing indeed. Stanhope cheered me
up.
|8.19.08 @ 3:46PM|#
Fed Up,
I'll assume you endorse the article you linked, even though you
didn't technically say so. A couple of things spring to mind on
first glance:
First, blaming gang violence in South LA on recent immigrants is a
lot like blaming anti-semitism on, say, Netflix subscribers.
Blaming the old problem on the newcomers is pretty pathetic.
Second, the whole concept of "reconquista" is silly. Half a dozen
nutjobs and a website does not a vast Mexican conspiracy make. You
shouldn't be concerned about those bozos any more than you should
be concerned that all the Indians working for tech-support lines
are secretly controlled by Breatharians who want to take over the
world and outlaw food.
That article seems to be deploying the same sort of specious
"reasoning" as those written by 9/11 Truthers, Flat Earthers, and
Icke believers.
|8.19.08 @ 3:52PM|#
I think the analogy between mafia and plant worker goes to both
partisipating in a illegal act. However, that's like comparing
those who kill and extort to those who jay-walk and drive too
fast.
The illegal immigrant issue is what the right-wing used to get
republicans to look the other way so they could run amuck.
I understand the issue, and it is a problem. But I'm far more
concerned about how the government is screwing us, and trying to
control our lives. It bugs me that they are using the immigration
issue to support federal authorization of employment for
everyone.
|8.19.08 @ 3:59PM|#
I think the analogy between mafia and plant worker goes to
both partisipating in a illegal act.
I figured. But I wanted to highlight the fact that, considering the
discussion is about whether or not immigration *should* be illegal,
it's completely circular to pretend that the fact that it
is is therefore a sufficient reason that it should
be.
|8.19.08 @ 4:01PM|#
Some people, are not honest about the issue, they claim that the
illegality is the cornerstone of their arguement. But if you say,
then make them legal, they have a problem with that too. If
legality is truly the issue, just make them legal, problem solved.
But it's not their legal status that is really the issue, it's the
fact that they are foreigners.
You'll know the one because they will bring up things that dirty
foreigners do that they don't like as evidence of why they should
be kicked out. It's not a question of law, it's much more
personal.
|8.19.08 @ 4:06PM|#
I find it amusing that many of them think we should throw the book at the immigrants, no punishment is too severe. Yet believe Scooter Libby's punishment for lying under oath, or the punishment for a couple of border guards for shooting someone running away, lying about it and filing a false report, was too much.
|8.19.08 @ 4:56PM|#
Crying a river of tears for the individual sob stories
totally misses the big picture that Mexico is
doing everything it can to create an
Illegal Mexican Nation within the borders
of the USA! Aiding,abetting and even urging
it people to illegally emigrate to the U.S.
calling them "heroes" and "Those who
will think Mexico First into the 7th Generation"
Asking U.S. Hispanics to become
"Dual Citizens" by applying for Mexican Citizenship
and using over 50 Mexican consulate as "Beachheads"
for Mexicans Legal and Illegal in the USA!
|8.19.08 @ 5:18PM|#
I don't think my mafia analogy proves that immigration should be
restricted.
It does, however, prove that not all things that local economies
will miss should automatically be legal. This is the argument Herr
Weigel seems to be making, or maybe he's just posting a sad
immigration enforcement story so that you all can stroke your
self-righteousnesses and thank God that you're not one of those
dirty, evil xenophobes who thinks national borders have a purpose
beyond making maps more colorful.
|8.19.08 @ 5:30PM|#
TrickyVic, wow you know some nasty right-wingers. I hope I never
meet them.
I don't hate foreigners. I just think immigration rates that are
faster than the existing society can hope to assimilate the
newcomers are not a good thing. Assimilation is necessary to avoid
our political system devolving into a third-world "election loss
==> riot" zeitgeist.
My preferred plan of action?
1. Secure the border. This is not negotiable. It is beyond dispute
that the Mexican govt and its military are assisting people
crossing the border illegally, and we're not just talking about
people looking for jobs, but those with less wholesome
intentions.
2. Increase the legal immigration quota from Mexico. This is set
ridiculously low because massive illegal immigration is expected.
Once the border is secured, that concern will no longer
prevail.
3. Guest worker program, for those who don't want to be Americans,
just take the money and run. I don't blame them sometimes.
|8.19.08 @ 5:49PM|#
My preferred plan of action?
End all quotas and expirations on visas. Deny entry solely for a
specific cause in the compelling public interest.
With reference to your numbers, that simple plan means...
1. You don't need to secure the border because all labor demand can
be satisfied legally. Since no one would try to hire anyone
illegal, there would be no demand for illegal entry and its
assistance.
2. No immigration quotas from Mexico.
3. Guest worker programs would be irrelevant. People can come and
go as they wish. If they wish to stay, they can go through the long
process of citizenship. If not, no biggee. Call them guest workers
after the fact if you like.
shecky|8.19.08 @ 6:45PM|#
I just think immigration rates that are faster than the
existing society can hope to assimilate the newcomers are not a
good thing. Assimilation is necessary to avoid our political system
devolving into a third-world "election loss ==> riot"
zeitgeist.
Is there any reason to believe that either immigrants are not
assimilating or that lack of assimilation is even a problem?
|8.19.08 @ 7:56PM|#
1. You don't need to secure the border because all labor
demand can be satisfied legally. Since no one would try to hire
anyone illegal, there would be no demand for illegal entry and its
assistance.
What about the people you deny entry to, and people who don't want
us to know when they enter? You don't think they might try to sneak
across the wide open border, do you?
That's the problem with some of these semi-laissez-faire schemes.
You say, let's legalize prostitution so we can tax the hell out of
it, and force johns to use condoms. The problem is, once you put
restrictions on it, you wind up with the same black market /
unauthorized entry problem that you had to begin with. All you've
given yourself is a false sense of security.
|8.19.08 @ 8:15PM|#
What about the people you deny entry to, and people who
don't want us to know when they enter? You don't think they might
try to sneak across the wide open border, do you?
Yes. Yes they might.
Of course, they'll try to sneak across in the face of any border
fence or controls the government tries to apply.
However, if the government does not invest its limited capabilities
to stop harmless immigrants, the border protection resources of the
nation can be mustered to address actually problematic people.
|8.19.08 @ 8:19PM|#
Is there any reason to believe that either immigrants are
not assimilating or that lack of assimilation is even a
problem?
On the first one, the presence of multiple Spanish language TV
stations in our large metropolitan areas a worrisome sign. Tulpa
seems to have answered the second one in the quote you give.
|8.20.08 @ 12:26AM|#
On the first one, the presence of multiple Spanish language
TV stations in our large metropolitan areas a worrisome sign. Tulpa
seems to have answered the second one in the quote you
give.
The data is pretty clear on the assimilation issue. By the third
generation, immigrants are culturally indistinguishable
from natives. Sure, the guy who sneaks across the border is never
going to speak English like a native, but his kids will speak it.
They'll see themselves as being of two cultures, they'll be
bilingual, and they'll get along just fine in our society. By the
time the grandkids come around, they'll be dyed-in-the-wool
Americans, and they'll have trouble communicating with Grandpa
because they speak only English.
This is why even if there were a substantial number of
people in Mexico plotting "reconquista," their plan would be
utterly doomed. The first batch to sneak across the border can't
vote, and later generations don't have the ties to Mexico necessary
to want to hand over the keys to the country.
In the long run, there's no problem with assimilation. In the short
run, yeah, you have to suffer through the horror and indignity of
knowing that there are more than zero Spanish-language television
stations in your city.
shecky|8.20.08 @ 12:59AM|#
On the first one, the presence of multiple Spanish language
TV stations in our large metropolitan areas a worrisome
sign.
The presence of Spanish language TV a worrisome sign? I suppose...
if you can't figure out how to change the channel. I'm not sure the
existence of Spanish TV (or Korean, Armenian, Iranian, etc, all of
which exist in my hometown of L.A.) is any more worrisome than
channels devoted to science fiction, or comedy, or cooking.
Tulpa seems to have answered the second one in the quote you
give.
The data is pretty clear. But let's assume that for whatever
reason, immigrants are not assimilating. Shouldn't people have the
freedom to do as they please? Perhaps the Amish should be forced to
assimilate into 21st century America.
If somewhere along the line, English is replaced by Spanish, or
Japanese, or Gaelic, it will happen because of a massive amount of
momentum will make it happen. Until then, the government has much
more pressing concerns, as the chances of such a thing coming to be
are so insignificant as to be nil.
|8.20.08 @ 11:11AM|#
The illegal immigrants are not being assimulated. They are coming in way to fast. They do not want to be American citizens. They will not speak english, they fly the mexican flag, they send money back to mexico which hurts our economy. They should all be kicked out of this country. If anyone gives birth while in this countrry illegally, that kid should not be a citzen of the U.S. and the bill should be sent to there respective govnment.
|8.20.08 @ 12:42PM|#
they send money back to mexico which hurts our
economy.
Come for the intolerant anti-immigration rant. Stay for the
profound economic illiteracy!
jtuf|8.20.08 @ 1:39PM|#
Tripple the immigration quotas across the board. That will humanly and quickly relieve much of the pressure for illegal immigration while politicians haggle about the rest of the details.
|8.20.08 @ 3:02PM|#
Misery? What did they expect, a banquet? Smell the tacos folks,
they're illegal. And by the way, they're not immigrants, Latinos or
Hispanics.
"Hispanic" is an American term derived from the Spanish word
Hispanohablantes, which merely means "Spanish speaker" encompassing
Spain, The Philippines, et al. "Latino" also is an American term
derived in 1945 from the term Latinoamericano or Latin-American and
it denotes citizenship the same way that the terms Black and
Amerind denote citizenship.
"Immigrant" defines people who came to America legally. The term
"illegal immigrant" is oxymoronic and the term "legal immigrant" is
redundant. Often hidden behind the term "immigrant," is an illegal
alien. It means neither Hispanic nor Latino.
Mexicans commingle illegal aliens with these three groups to create
confusion and enhance illegal alien survival. It's the same way
that birds enhance survival by flocking together. Such amorphy
makes it difficult to focus on them. Obscured is the fact that
illegal aliens are neither citizens nor immigrants. But Mexico
hates any clarification because it removes their camouflage.
Perhaps, deep down, they consider the term "Mexican" offensive.
|8.20.08 @ 4:07PM|#
"Immigrant" defines people who came to America
legally.
Doubleplusgood argument!
|8.20.08 @ 5:09PM|#
"""TrickyVic, wow you know some nasty right-wingers. I hope I
never meet them."""
I know many of all kinds. But you'll know the ones I'm talking
about. Say Pelosi and immigrant in the same sentence and they start
foaming at the mouth. Usually just saying Pelosi works.
"""Secure the border."""
Like East Berlin did?
They system you create to keep them out will one day become the
system to keep you in.
B|8.20.08 @ 10:01PM|#
Boo fucking hoo. Why is it that every time these people break
the law and have to pay the penalty for it, we get some ridiculous
fucking sob story that reads like it came from the pen of Alan
fuckin Alda? Illegal immigrants should not be treated differently
than any other criminal. When you break the law, you suffer the
consequences for it. If you don't like it, vote in representatives
that will change the law instead of constantly fucking whining
about how these poor innocent people, you know, the ones who
willingly broke the laws of the United States, are being
abused.
"They system you create to keep them out will one day become the
system to keep you in.'
Please. I hope the above quote wasn't supposed to be some profound
insight because it is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have
ever read on this sight. But that is to be expected if it comes
from a moron comparing the actions of the United States in its
efforts to stop the flow of illegal immigrants to the actions of an
oppressive dictatorship that imprisoned its own populace
B|8.20.08 @ 10:04PM|#
"But if you say, then make them legal, they have a problem with
that too. If legality is truly the issue, just make them
legal"
I take back what I said in my earlier post. The quote directly
above is even more fucking stupid than the previous one.
|8.20.08 @ 11:31PM|#
"But if you say, then make them legal, they have a problem
with that too. If legality is truly the issue, just make them
legal"
I take back what I said in my earlier post. The quote directly
above is even more fucking stupid than the previous one.
Why? It seems to be the operative question.
If legality is truly the issue, just make them legal.
|8.21.08 @ 3:56PM|#
"""Please. I hope the above quote wasn't supposed to be some
profound insight because it is quite possibly the stupidest thing I
have ever read on this sight."""
Not a fan of history?
|8.21.08 @ 4:03PM|#
""""But that is to be expected if it comes from a moron
comparing the actions of the United States in its efforts to stop
the flow of illegal immigrants to the actions of an oppressive
dictatorship that imprisoned its own populace"""
From Wiki
"On 1 April, 1952, East German leaders met the Soviet leader Stalin
in Moscow; during the discussions Stalin's foreign minister
Vyacheslav Molotov proposed that the East Germans should "introduce
a system of passes for visits of West Berlin residents to the
territory of East Berlin [so as to stop] free movement of Western
agents" in the GDR. Stalin agreed, calling the situation
"intolerable". He advised the East Germans to build up their border
defenses, telling them that "The demarcation line between East and
West Germany should be considered a border - and not just any
border, but a dangerous one ... The Germans will guard the line of
defense with their lives." [4]""
|8.21.08 @ 4:07PM|#
The wall the East Germans built to keep the westerners out,
became the wall that kept them in.
Now why did china build there wall?
What wall has a free society ever built?
|8.21.08 @ 4:15PM|#
"""Illegal immigrants should not be treated differently than any
other criminal. When you break the law, you suffer the consequences
for it."""
I agree with that. The problem is in the first sentence, some
people think that illegal immigrants SHOULD be treated very
differently than other criminals by denying them righs of the
accused afforded by our Constitution.
But then there is an issue with the last sentence. Something about
agents of government not being punished for the laws they break, or
ask others to break on their behalf.
|8.21.08 @ 4:41PM|#
B, one other thing
If you had any concept of critial thinking you would know that
appeal to personal attack does not further your argument, nor does
it weakens your opponents.
Tulpa, I don't know B, but he's a good example to your earlier
question. Notice how he froths at the mouth with name calling when
he disagrees with my statements.
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