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Well You Gave Away the Things You Loved, and One of Them Was Me
Oh no he di-unt! From the Dept. of Do You Really Want to Go There?, the McCain campaign today sent out this note:
It's pretty obvious that the media has a bizarre fascination with Barack Obama. Some may even say it's a love affair. [...]
The media is in love with Barack Obama. If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny.
Viewers at home were then asked to select from two mocking "Obama Love" videos showing journalists swooning (and, confusingly, many journalists just talking about other journalists swooning in a way that makes it seem like it's them doing the swooning). Here's the version I preferred:
Three points about all this: 1) It's totally true! Journalists do heart Obama, and they deserve to be mocked! 2) From a practical standpoint, do you really want to be taking alienating (and somewhat unfair!) potshots at Chris Matthews, one of the single biggest practitioners of the McCain man-crush? 3) Aside from the Matthews quotes, the list of panting media comments in the Maverick's general direction is long and hilarious. Here's but a brief sampling:
Michael Lewis, The New Republic, Sept. 30, 1996:
The shock of finding a Republican outside the Democratic convention is followed by a disturbingly pleasant sensation. I'm beginning to understand the war that must occur inside a 14-year-old boy who discovers he is more sexually attracted to boys than to girls. The longer I hang around McCain the harder it is to fight the feeling that just maybe I'm ... Republican.
Charles Lane, The New Republic, Oct. 18, 1999:
A feeling is building up inside me, and, rather than continue trying to keep it to myself, rather than deny it any further, I think it's time finally to open up and discuss it publicly. I didn't want this to happen. I know it shouldn't be happening. But it is: I'm falling for John McCain[.]
Paul Alexander, in his 2002 biography Man of the People:
McCain has evolved over his 20-year political career into the one current politician who best articulates the hopes and dreams of the common man, the citizen out there in Kansas or Oklahoma or Alabama who wants to see a return to populism in America.
More fun quotes, and an analysis of what they might mean for contemporary politics, can be found in this book.
Pull up your socks and ask McC|7.22.08 @ 7:26PM|#
The worst part about this is that law we passed that established
the reporting monopoly. You know, the law that says only Registered
Reporters can do reporting. As everyone will recall, that law
forbids regular citizens from bypassing the MSM by asking
candidates the questions the MSM is too corrupt to ask.
If not for that law, I have no doubt that Reason would try to
undercut the MSM by encouraging regular people to ask the
candidates questions and upload them to Youtube.
As I write this, Reason is working to get that law
overturned so we can finally have some real reporting.
|7.22.08 @ 7:30PM|#
Wow! They are so blinded by Obamalove they can't even report the
right song for the video montage.
Matt-- getting any sleep?
Travis|7.22.08 @ 7:36PM|#
I saw alot of people like that this year at Ron Paul & Obama rallies. They have that glazed over euphoric look in their eye. Whatever catch phrase slogan the candidate spewed out they were instantly for. No matter how stupid of a idea it was.
ktc2|7.22.08 @ 7:40PM|#
So, McCain, who has largely had a free pass from the media for years is now complaining about Obama's current free pass?
Peter Orvetti|7.22.08 @ 7:41PM|#
McCain's right! It's sick the way the media will fawn all over a candidate, give him glowing coverage, treat him like a buddy, etc. etc. That's so 2000 of them.
|7.22.08 @ 7:44PM|#
Like a lot of things McCain says about Obama, it's a perfectly legit complaint, and also one that McCain has absolutely no room to be leveling against any one.
Chloe|7.22.08 @ 8:04PM|#
There's more Obama love, hearts, and flowers in the media these days than a Danielle Steele movie on the Lifetime channel. It's positively barf-worthy. And when Katie Couric talks about him it's like Cinemax soft porn in the middle of the night, and Katie's dying to do a scene with Michelle while Obama watches.
BakedPenguin|7.22.08 @ 8:11PM|#
Matt, you must be conflicted. On the one hand, McCain is obviously not your preferred candidate. On the other, his phoenix-like resurrection in this campaign has had to be great for the sales of your book.
Seanfucious|7.22.08 @ 8:18PM|#
McCain isn't getting the worst treatment a Republican ever has, but the tilt towards Obama is pretty significant. If someone could find the link it would be great, but I read today that the nightly MSM broadcasts had well over over 100 minutes of Obama coverage compared to 38 for McCain last night.
|7.22.08 @ 8:25PM|#
Has there ever been a case of both parties nominating media darlings before this year?
Matt Welch|7.22.08 @ 8:33PM|#
Matt, you must be conflicted.
Not at all! I was for a moment in the run-up to Iowa, but then I
remembered that whole self-interest thing....
Has there ever been a case of both parties nominating media
darlings before this year?
I don't think so! (Though I don't know.) Certainly never in my
sweet, short life.
Matt Welch|7.22.08 @ 8:34PM|#
Matt-- getting any sleep?
Thanks to some heroic efforts on the part of my better half and her
parents ... yes, some.
Neu Mejican|7.22.08 @ 8:34PM|#
Seanfucious,
The numbers I heard were 114 for Obama against 48 for McCain.
But given that John McCain has been in the media spotlight for
quite a long time now, and Obama is the new guy on the block, I am
not sure a balanced editorial policy would not skew coverage
towards the new guy pretty significantly. Add to that that Obama is
the first African-American candidate, one of the younger candidates
in recent years, etc...
And you have to add in a good chunk of time for all those stories
about "Media bias for Obama? Is it real?"
|7.22.08 @ 8:36PM|#
Right now, Barack Obama is on a high-profile trip to Iraq, and John McCain is holding quiet fundraisers. What would you report on?
No Name Guy|7.22.08 @ 8:42PM|#
FiveThirtyEight.com and their simulator has, for the first time
since he won the Democratic nomination, Obama with a less than 60%
chance of winning the election.
This will be a close election, with one or two states deciding. If
this election is close even WITH the increased number of Democratic
registrations thats pretty sad.
I think the oil drilling thing is helping McCain.
SIV|7.22.08 @ 9:05PM|#
I think the oil drilling thing is helping McCain.
Not to mention the huge numbers of "reliable" Democrat Party voters
who are racist.
Obama is going to need that record turnout of young voters.The ones
who always fail to show up every four years.
McCain will win.
We're doomed either way.
KT|7.22.08 @ 9:08PM|#
He's right, but perhaps the only person they have a bigger crush on is McCain himself. He gets all kinds of passes for the incorrect, uninformed stuff he sometimes comes up with.
No Name Guy|7.22.08 @ 9:20PM|#
Evan Bayh might help if hes VP. But he would've been better at the top of the ticket. He'd be measuring the drapes and planning his inaugural.
Just Sayin\'|7.22.08 @ 10:25PM|#
And when Katie Couric talks about him it's like Cinemax soft
porn in the middle of the night, and Katie's dying to do a scene
with Michelle
In 1989, the last time I had cinemax, I would have totally watched
this.
Just Sayin\'|7.22.08 @ 10:31PM|#
Has there ever been a case of both parties nominating media
darlings before this year?
Well, yes, if you consider one candidate was generally a darling of
Hearst, and the other of Pulitzer.
|7.22.08 @ 10:43PM|#
Give mw a break!! The media are (media is the plural of medium)
as solicitous of John McCain as Monica Lewinsky was solicitous of
her cigar buddy.
Where, for example, are the American media stories about how
McHorndog left his crippled wife once she became injured and
disfigured in order to take up with a pill-thieving Barbie doll
beer heiress?
|7.22.08 @ 10:48PM|#
The numbers I heard were 114 for Obama against 48 for
McCain
Before I checked upstream I thought you were talking about approval
percentages.
|7.22.08 @ 10:57PM|#
Where, for example, are the American media stories about how
McHorndog left his crippled wife once she became injured and
disfigured in order to take up with a pill-thieving Barbie doll
beer heiress?
Right
here.
Gov. Mike Huckabee|7.23.08 @ 12:02AM|#
Matt Welch,
Like it our not, one day you will have to admit I financed every
family vacation your heathen family ever took.
May God have mercy on your libertine soul.
Your Friend,
M.H.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 7:18AM|#
Right now, Barack Obama is on a high-profile trip to Iraq,
and John McCain is holding quiet fundraisers. What would you report
on?
Depends on the fundraiser, and who's in attendance.
Abdul|7.23.08 @ 7:52AM|#
Joe,
It's not just when Obama is on high profile trips.
The Project for Excellence in Journalism, which evaluates more
than 300 newspaper, magazine, and television stories each week,
found that from June 9 (after Obama had wrapped up the Democratic
nomination) until July 13, Obama was more prominently covered every
single week. During one particular week, July 7-13, McCain was a
significant presence in 48 percent of the stories-but Obama met
that mark in 77 percent of the pieces. Similarly, the Tyndall
Report, a media monitoring group, found that Obama received
substantially more media attention.
From Dee Dee Myers' column:
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/07/is-the-media-trying-to-elect-obama.html
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 8:19AM|#
Joe,
It's not just when Obama is on high profile trips.
It might help if McCain, y'know, *went on high profile
trips*.
But he's apparently too fragile for that.
|7.23.08 @ 8:40AM|#
the citizen out there in Kansas or Oklahoma or Alabama who
wants to see a return to populism in America.
Who are these citizens? I want to hunt them down and kill them; or
convince them to emigrate to England.
I hate populists, and the weak-kneed boobs they pander to.
Fluffy|7.23.08 @ 8:41AM|#
I read today that the nightly MSM broadcasts had well over
over 100 minutes of Obama coverage compared to 38 for McCain last
night.
Actually, the low # of McCain minutes probably represents
McCain favoritism just as much as it represents Obama
favoritism.
To cover McCain, they would need to actually put him on the air,
and/or talk about the latest noteworthy thing he said.
McCain's minutes go down whenever a review of the day's footage
shows nothing but McCain looking like a palsic, trembling zombie
muttering through his day's speech while his face is frozen in a
rictus of insanity - and his press buddies decide to drop that
footage in the oubliette.
McCain's minutes also go down whenever the day's events involve
McCain not knowing the difference between Sunni and Shia, or McCain
not knowing that Iran and Al Qaeda are enemies, or McCain thinking
that Pakistan borders Iraq, or McCain singing a song about starting
another war, or McCain repudiating a position he held three weeks
ago without acknowledging it, or McCain offering a budget that
counts as deficit savings spending items we don't currently count
towards the deficit, or the Supreme Court striking down yet another
of McCain's Constitution-hating bills, or what have you. McCain has
low minutes because if the media can't portray him as America's
Heroic Populist Maverick they simply won't cover him. If they can't
say something nice, they won't say anything at all.
|7.23.08 @ 8:41AM|#
If you ask me the media's doing McCain a favor by reporting on him less. Otherwise we might be provided with more evidence that he's a crazy old coot without the slightest idea how to run a country.
|7.23.08 @ 8:46AM|#
LOL, Does anyone here actually think Obama will last more than 2
weeks if he is elected? I mean come onsheeple, lets be real
here.
JT
http://www.FireMe.To/udi
Fluffy|7.23.08 @ 8:51AM|#
Yglesias has a good example of what I am describing:
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/07/mccains_mixedup_timeline.php
I imagine it shortened McCain's minutes slightly when during his
interview with Couric he decided to demonstrate that he doesn't
know basic facts about the timeline of the "surge" and the "Anbar
Awakening", and CBS just decided to cut his mistake from the
footage they aired.
After you snip out all the parts of your McCain footage where he
either dissembles or errs, you have to go to air with the minutes
you got.
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 9:02AM|#
So the media loves both candidates and mostly won't print
stories that put either of them in a bad light. How utterly
boring.
Can we talk about The Dark Knight more instead, then?
|7.23.08 @ 9:15AM|#
Can we talk about The Dark Knight more instead,
then?
Christian Bale was apparently arrested for assaulting his mother
and sister
|7.23.08 @ 9:16AM|#
Good point, Fluffy.
If the networds has done more stories on McCain's speech in front
of the green screen, would that be fairer?
|7.23.08 @ 9:17AM|#
I hate the Welch. I'll always hate the Welch. I'll hate him for the rest of my life.
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 9:23AM|#
Moose, maybe they were trying to shake him down for some
dough.
What about the copycat vigilante aspect to the film? Did you feel
that it approved, disapproved, or took no position?
|7.23.08 @ 9:36AM|#
What about the copycat vigilante aspect to the film? Did you
feel that it approved, disapproved, or took no position?
I feel like that aspect had been explored in a different
(non-batman) movie, so the originality of the "what makes you
different from me?" line was a little lacking for me.
I think the film took no position on the morality of the vigilante
copycats, although Batman's position was pretty clearly
negative.
|7.23.08 @ 9:41AM|#
If John McCain admits that the Anbar Awakening started months
before the Surge, he'd be forced to acknowledge that he was wrong
all those years he asserted that al Qaeda would take over Iraq in
the absence of an American occupation, and that the people, like
Barack Obama, who said that the Iraqis would never stand for that
were right.
Doing so would be a double blow; it would undermine his argument
that he has superior judgement and knowledge in this area, as well
as refute one of his favorite justifications for staying in
Iraq.
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 9:58AM|#
I agree that it took no moral position on the vigilantes; in fact, it seemed to say "do it if you want, but realize it can be dangerous". But considering the theme of the film is that Batman does the city a service by being it's vigilante whipping boy, you'd think that having more of them would be a good thing. Or maybe not; maybe more of them dilute the service that Batman provides.
|7.23.08 @ 10:12AM|#
Epi,
Batman's real anger is that they are using guns and might wind-up
killing people. Batman is fundamentally focused on not killing
people himself and preventing the deaths of others; if vigilantes
inspired by him do, he's indirectly responsible. It's a mirror
theme to the "unmasking myself so Joker won't kill more people"
plot thread.
|7.23.08 @ 10:32AM|#
Sugar -
It may be that it is an extension of the "unmasking" theme, but the
vigilante theme was explored only very shallowly in comparisson to
the "do you really think the Joker will stop killing people if you
expose your identity.?" theme
|7.23.08 @ 10:41AM|#
Reinmoose,
Yeah, it seemed almost like an abandoned plot idea from an earlier
version of the script.
And I'm bringing a published interpretation of the character to
explain the movie version. Most modern Batman version explain that
he holds a fairly low regard to costumed adventurers that he did
not train or has not worked with extensively. (And he doesn't trust
unconditionally: one of Morrison's last arcs on JLA was Ra's Al
Ghul stealing Batman's contingency plans for all the other members
of of the JLA in case they went rogue, and incapacitating them
within hours.)
|7.23.08 @ 10:45AM|#
this newsie-ncident takes some of the prestige off of christian's career. some americans think he's psycho and think he should get the shaft for the reign of fire he unleashed upon his mother. These harsh times are no midsummer night's dream. If he can regain his equilibrium, this batman can begin his salvation by terminating this velvet goldmine.
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 10:46AM|#
NutraSweet is right, but moose you are also right that it was
very shallowly explored. It was an example of when good writing
creates a plot device: they needed someone for The Joker to kill to
get Batman to expose his identity, and instead of making it out of
thin air they used a vigilante which tied back nicely to making
Wayne feel responsible.
It's a damn well-written movie. Light-years beyond even the
watchable Hollywood crap.
|7.23.08 @ 10:49AM|#
Saw Dark Knight yesterday and I did not like it.
I thought the characters acted in hard to buy ways. For example
Harvey Dent when confronted in the hospital by the Joker. It was
unbelievable that given what the Joker had did to him that he would
not have just shot the guy when he had the chance. I mean, he goes
on to shoot numerous people who were only tangentially connected to
the Joker, but he did not shoot him? Also the bizarre turn at the
end [SPOILER ALERT, SKIP DOWN IF NECESSARY} seemed wrong, certainly
Gotham would have seen Batman as a hero for, you know, finally
catching the Joker.
I also thought it was absurd that the Joker was so far ahead of the
police very step of the way. So when his big rig flipped on him
possibly killing him that was actually his plan all along. Yeah,
right.
|7.23.08 @ 10:53AM|#
With Dent dead Gotham would need a hero, Batman would bethe
logical choice, but he decides to be a villian, because that's what
Gotham really needs. WTF?
Of course Ledger's performance was great. And I'll give it to
Nolan, I read where he was going for a "shell shocked" effect, to
get the audience to feel what a Gothamite going throught the
Joker's terrorism would be feeling, and I did feel "shook up" after
the film.
|7.23.08 @ 10:55AM|#
Dent's anger towards the Joker is so great that it makes him turn his back on everything he believed in, makes him kill people only tangentially related to his fiancee's death, but when given the chance to harm the Joker he doesn't? That was incredible (and I mean that in the old sense of the word)
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 10:56AM|#
MNG, Gotham would have seen him as a hero but Dent's criminal
acts would have shattered their faith in a non-vigilante hero. And
since Batman really, really wants to hand over his duties to a
non-vigilante hero, he can't have that.
As for being ahead of the police: The Joker intended to get caught
all along. He just wanted to have as much fun as possible doing it.
The rig flipping was stupid because of the physics of it, not
because he "planned" it, because he didn't. It was just the
way in which he was caught.
|7.23.08 @ 11:05AM|#
Epi
My point is that it's hard to buy that he could have "planned" to
be caught in a car chase with a police caravan which would involve
the highest possibility that he would have been killed, not
caught.
He was ahead of the police in so many ways it was just hard to
believe. When the mayor gives his speech the police are looking for
him, and they were out in incredible numbers. You don't think they
would have, Secret Service style, sweeped through the area? Or
noticed that the honor guard was a bunch of cops that noone knew
(that one especially is highly unlikely)? Or when they are
escorting Dent they wouldn't have had, say, hundreds of cops and
dozens of choppers at key points along the way in case the Joker
ambushed the escort?
When the jail explodes (wouldn't the prisoners have to go through a
metal detector which would have gone off re the guy with the phone
and bomb in his stomach?) how come the Joker and his henchmen, who
were in the same explosion, come out of it OK but all the cops are
incapacitated? How does the Joker get hundreds of drums of
explosives on a barge and the cops don't notice them there though
they know the barges are a focus of a Joker threat?
Etc.
|7.23.08 @ 11:08AM|#
I also thought the dippy sonar gimmick at the end was 1. not necessary (why not just have Batman simply defeat the Joker without such a gimmick, after all he is a highly trained fighter and tactician) and 2. far too similar to Daredevil (even the effects seemed similar to the horrible Affleck Daredevil).
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 11:12AM|#
Oh, I dunno. I saw TDK last night, and came away with a spectrum
of opinions on different aspects.
With the proviso that it is a damn superhero movie, I wasn't
bothered at all by some of the cinematic but unlikely physicality
of, for example, the rig being flipped over. It was good cinema,
and it was the punchline to a funny sight gag. ("He missed!")
The Joker was tirelessly entertaining to watch, and my two favorite
scenes included him being supremely devilish (the Joker/Batman
interrogation and the Joker/Two-face Hospital scene).
The action was mostly visual gibberish except for the chase
set-piece in the middle; I did not like the way it was shot. Nolan
is still very clearly uncomfortable shooting action.
I though the theme of the movie was really "how deeply do the
conventions of civilization run?" with the Joker arguing that they
were merely skin-deep and Batman arguing that they are much more.
The Joker does make a really sharp point that people are much more
concerned with the status quo continuing than with whether the
status quo is at all pleasant.
The Joker intended to get caught all along. He just wanted to
have as much fun as possible doing it. The rig flipping was stupid
because of the physics of it, not because he "planned" it, because
he didn't. It was just the way in which he was caught.
And to reinforce, I don't think he even really cared so much
whether he survived (because his plans being executed are only fun
if he can watch them happen). He was merely glad that he survived
and was captured, and had a contingency for that (likely)
eventuality.
I though Harvey Dent/Two-Face was really superb. Sudden and
traumatic loss can do funky things to a mind, so I didn't find his
transformation unconvincing. Eckhart's got game.
|7.23.08 @ 11:16AM|#
"The Joker was tirelessly entertaining to watch, and my two
favorite scenes included him being supremely devilish"
Agreed.
I thought the various scenes where the Joker handles a knife near
and in the mouths of people were some of the most intense I've ever
seen. Ledger did some fine work there.
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 11:21AM|#
The action was mostly visual gibberish except for the chase
set-piece in the middle; I did not like the way it was shot. Nolan
is still very clearly uncomfortable shooting action.
Nolan's problem is that he shoots action scenes way too tight. The
camera is too close to the action and the viewer cannot get a good
sense of motion and choreography, and is therefore confused. It's
claustrophobic and it's like putting blinders on to watch the
action scenes. You're straining to see the edges, the bigger
picture, but can't. Very annoying.
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 11:24AM|#
I thought the various scenes where the Joker handles a knife
near and in the mouths of people were some of the most intense I've
ever seen. Ledger did some fine work there.
Very true, though I am pissed at Nolan for not actually showing the
cutting of someone's mouth. He had me supremely uncomfortable the
first time with Gambler when I thought he might actually show it to
us, but then he wussed out. I realize that for many people that
might have been too far, but I watch Lucio Fulci movies while
eating so I need extra oomph.
|7.23.08 @ 11:31AM|#
Pg-13 Epi, gotta get the kid market. But yeah, I thought it a
wus out.
You know, I like violent films, and I've seen quite a bit of them.
And I'm not one to think that violence in film/tv will make kids go
out and start cutting the tails off cats, but I think that film was
a little intense for many 11 year olds as it was...But imo that's
why WALL-E is playing down the hall of the cinema...
|7.23.08 @ 11:32AM|#
Was I the only one that noticed that the Joker gave two
different accounts for his scars (abusive dad and self mutilation
to make his cut up wife feel better)?
I had no beef with that, it fits the Joker's character that he
would be constantly bullshitting about his past like that.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 11:35AM|#
Was I the only one that noticed that the Joker gave two
different accounts for his scars (abusive dad and self mutilation
to make his cut up wife feel better)?
And each account seemed calculated to discomfit the recipient of
the explanation specifically.
I would have been interested to know the story he would have told
Batman if he hadn't been rudely interrupted by knife spikes to the
gut.
|7.23.08 @ 12:01PM|#
Ahhh, Christian Bale.
My God that man is FINE!!!!
The main reason women watch Batman movies.
I would leave my husband for Christian... damn he is too
fine.
(finally, a woman's turn to drool over the opossite sex on this
board...)
|7.23.08 @ 12:04PM|#
I too would have appreciated the additional violence, and a part
of me was really disappointed with the end (as discussed yesterday)
in that I was looking for a more evil ending to the movie to
continue into the sequal.
MNG -
I agree about the scenes where the joker holds the knife to the
mouths of his victims - very intense. I found myself horribly torn
between the correct observations of the Joker (status quo, etc.)
and wanting to feel bad for his victims, even though sometimes I
couldn't. Having the PG-13 rating really put a damper on it, I
think, and also gave away some of what was going to happen if you
thought about it that way.
|7.23.08 @ 12:11PM|#
oh, and MNG -
Re believability of how the Joker got his guys installed places and
how he got oil barrels on boats and the like, remember that it's
not as black and white as "Joker vs. the good guys." A lot of the
cops helped the Joker or looked the other way, as demonstrated by
Dent during his rampage of "what did you think was going to
happen?"
|7.23.08 @ 12:12PM|#
If John McCain admits that the Anbar Awakening started
months before the Surge, he'd be forced to acknowledge that he was
wrong all those years he asserted that al Qaeda would take over
Iraq in the absence of an American occupation.
That is a huge fucking leap.
Anonymous|7.23.08 @ 12:14PM|#
1. 9.4 The
Dark Knight (2008) 91,097
It's number one on IMDb's top 250. I'm not sure whether that means
I definitely have to see it or I definitely have to avoid it.
|7.23.08 @ 12:15PM|#
It's totally true! Journalists do heart Obama, and they
deserve to be mocked!
The question is not if MSM has a crush on Obama....but how deep is
Weigel's crush on him?
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 12:25PM|#
I too would have appreciated the additional violence, and a
part of me was really disappointed with the end (as discussed
yesterday) in that I was looking for a more evil ending to the
movie to continue into the sequel.
I was personally disappointed that Dent died at the end. He would
have been a fantastic setup for a sequel. It seemed that he was
just getting warmed-up.
Episiarch|7.23.08 @ 12:37PM|#
I was personally disappointed that Dent died at the end. He
would have been a fantastic setup for a sequel. It seemed that he
was just getting warmed-up.
What? Did they ever explicitly say he died? I thought the whole
point was for him to feature prominently in a sequel.
|7.23.08 @ 12:38PM|#
LMNOP -
He didn't necessarily die - or rather, "Dent" may have died, but
Two-Face survived. I know they held a memorial service for him or
whatever with his photo up, but that doesn't mean he's dead.
Elemenope|7.23.08 @ 2:51PM|#
I sure hope you guys are right about that.
He definitely wasn't moving after he hit the ground, though, and
the place was right after that moment swarming with cops. A pulse
is one of those things they check for.
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