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"Here's a gun, and here's a beer"
Over at Radar, reason contributor Marty Beckerman plugs in a genuinely confusing bit from Fox News earlier this week in which the founder of Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) goes on a tear about how troops under 21 are "malleable" and hence shouldn't be able to drink legally. The context isn't clear and the video is very Zapruder-quality. But watch it and decide for yourself.
On Monday Fox News Channel aired a debate between Candy Lightner, the founder of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, and Alex Koroknay-Palicz of the National Youth Rights Association, which contends that if you're old enough to vote, marry, and join the Army, you're old enough to guzzle Jäger. As you can imagine, Lightner was unimpressed, and rather vocal about it:
Koroknay-Palicz said U.S. soldiers between the ages of 18 and 21 should have the legal right to drink a beer, which seems more than reasonable considering that they might, you know, die at any moment. (You need to unwind after your day at work?) But Lightner was disgusted that our fighting men and women would have the audacity to imbibe. She ranted that 18-year-olds haven't "developed, and that's exactly why the draft age is 18, because these kids are malleable." She added: "They will follow the leader, they don't think for themselves, and they are the last ones I want to say, 'Here's a gun, and here's a beer.' They are not adult—that's why they're in the military. They are not adults."
Update: Over at reason.tv's Rough Cut blog, Dan Hayes has posted video of a Fox News debate about whether the drinking age should be lowered, a move that several states are considering. Check that out here.
And last April, reason Senior Editor Radley Balko interviewed former Middlebury College President John McCardell, Jr., who heads up Choose Responsibility, a group that advocates repealing the drinking age back to 18. Read that here.
JCoke|4.11.08 @ 7:50AM|#
Well, I am twenty, so only a few more months to go until I
magically gain a capability to drink, and I stop following the
leader.
What an idiot. But it doesn't even matter, because politicians are
afraid of what they appear to do, not what they do.
Ska|4.11.08 @ 8:04AM|#
Not developed enough to handle alcohol........just developed enough to get shot at, watch their friends explode, and to kill people they've never met. You know, they're not adults, and someone has to look out for them.
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 8:05AM|#
National Youth Rights Association
Those are my peeps! Glad they are getting some exposure.
They are not adult-that's why they're in the military. They are
not adults.
And this was on Fox News? She's lucky she didn't get a burlap bag
placed over her head and then beaten with bamboo rods. She
questioned the troops!!!1!11!
|4.11.08 @ 8:17AM|#
In truth,M.A.D.D doesn't want ANYONE to drink.They equate a beer or two with the legal standard of harm.They are drug warriors in their own right and use false stats to prove their point.
|4.11.08 @ 8:18AM|#
I signed the contract at 18, did my tour in Germany (BIER!!!),
and did just fine, thank you.
Now, at 39, I'm not malleable and she's a dumb cunt.
Taktix®|4.11.08 @ 8:20AM|#
She ranted that 18-year-olds haven't "developed, and that's
exactly why the draft age is 18, because these kids are
malleable.
Anyone want to guess what the unspoken implication is here?
|4.11.08 @ 8:27AM|#
I signed the contract at 18, did my tour[s] [on submarines &
in Scotland - pints of heavy!!! (Indian Pale Ale - the real
stuff)], and did just fine, thank you.
Now, at 52, I'm not malleable and she's a dumb cunt.
|4.11.08 @ 8:32AM|#
exactly why the draft age is 18
I believe that the draft age is 18 becuase that is when a person is
no longer a child but legally an adult.
As a practical matter, didn't the draft usually take guys that were
19 & 20 for the most part? I know as a father of two boys that
are now in their twenties that there is more than a year difference
between 18 & 19 and I bet the army realizes that too.
Klahn\'s Dungeon|4.11.08 @ 8:40AM|#
they no longer know who they are, and nor do they care.
"what do you drink?"
I don't
care.
J|4.11.08 @ 8:58AM|#
So... is she saying that soldiers are tricked into drafting
(because they are so malleable) - and that that is a good
thing?
(Note: I did not watch the video, just read the article)
Wicks Cherrycoke|4.11.08 @ 9:04AM|#
Why do we even pay attention to someone like her? Apparently no one else is. Even MADD threw her overboard.
Episiarch|4.11.08 @ 9:06AM|#
I can't WTFV but I'm sure it would drive me nuts anyway.
How can people like her be taken seriously? How is it possible? I
will despair now.
economist|4.11.08 @ 9:10AM|#
Wow, that lady's a fucking bitch.
Arguments seem to be:
1. Kids 18-21 are stupid and/or easily influenced.
2. Being stupid and suggestible makes you good for military
service.
3. Somebody who is entrusted with the security of the country
cannot be trusted not to drunk off their ass and get in a car
accident.
I know some soldiers who might disagree with this woman. Maybe I
should ask them to give her their opinion.
PC|4.11.08 @ 9:13AM|#
People under 21 are "malleable" all right, but so is the vast majority of citizens. MADD is one of the organizations that the alcohol prohibitionists have used for exile since they lost, even they are "malleable" it seems. Why should we sick military recruiters on people who are supposedly so "malleable"? Oh wait that was a stupid question.
Nephilium|4.11.08 @ 9:15AM|#
Wicks Cherrycoke:
Actually... MADD threw Candy off the prohibition wagon when she
started lobbying for the alcohol companies. Of course, I pretty
much assume anyone who had any association (by choice) with MADD to
be a lying prohibitionist asshole.
Nephilium
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 9:18AM|#
Why do we even pay attention to someone like her? Apparently
no one else is. Even MADD threw her overboard.
That must explain how she appeared floating adrift in the shallow
tidal pool that is Fox News.
Big McLargeHuge|4.11.08 @ 9:18AM|#
I didn't even watch the video, I just came to add 'what a dumb cunt'
Dave W.|4.11.08 @ 9:20AM|#
Conscripts should be allowed to drink.
Volunteers, no. It would encourage people to volunteer for the
wrong reasons.
|4.11.08 @ 9:22AM|#
I couldn't WTFV either, but holy shit. I'm not one of those "OMG, you're against teh TROOPS!" people in the least, but even I thought what she said was offensive and off base.
T|4.11.08 @ 9:22AM|#
Gee, what about people like me, who joined up at the ripe old age of 17? I guess I would have been screwed under anybody's rules. Good thing everybody else in the platoon was willing to buy for me. Well, that and being stationed right next to Mexico, where they don't much care.
|4.11.08 @ 9:23AM|#
I agree she's wackaloon. The disparity between being allowed to
defend the country and kill people, and not being allowed to suck
down a cold one, is stark. Unfortunately people tend to fall right
in line when the disparity is gone. It's one thing to have a 21
drinking age. It's another to arrest parents that serve alcohol to
their own children. A policy more states are adopting.
My parents started serving me wine at 14. It's at their table and
by their example that I learned to drink in moderation. How else
are kids suppose to learn to drink responsibly? Oh right, I forgot,
they wake up on their 21st birthday magically transformed.
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 9:25AM|#
Some here seem to get it, some, like the MADD chick
don't:
She ranted that 18-year-olds haven't "developed, and that's exactly why the draft age is 18, because these kids are malleable."
There is not draft in the USA and there has not been one since the
Nixon administration convinced the Congress to end it.
Selesctive Service registration? Yes, we have had that
since the Congress, around the time of the Carter or Reagan
administration brought it back (at the request of the
Executive).
She probably knows this, but is banking on her audience not knowing
it and, as we can see here, she is partially correct in her
assumption.
Oh, and for the poll, I enlisted at 17 with concent of parents,
just went over 29 years of total service including the IRR and not
'malleable' either.
|4.11.08 @ 9:26AM|#
My parents started serving me wine at 14. It's at their
table and by their example that I learned to drink in moderation.
How else are kids suppose to learn to drink responsibly? Oh right,
I forgot, they wake up on their 21st birthday magically
transformed.
By the time I was 18 I could drink more wine at
thanksgiving/christmas (my only parentally-sanctioned chances) than
my mom without getting tipsy.
economist|4.11.08 @ 9:27AM|#
"My parents started serving me wine at 14"
14?
I could knock back 4 or 5 beers at a sitting by that time.
PC|4.11.08 @ 9:30AM|#
"Conscripts should be allowed to drink.
Volunteers, no. It would encourage people to volunteer for the
wrong reasons."
They already try to get people to join for the "wrong reasons,"
every recruiter whoever bugged me told me about all this free shit
I would get and all the money they would throw at me. I thought
love of country should have been somewhere in the selling pitch but
they have professionals to develop those things who know more than
I. Frankly right or wrong reasons, if these wars are going to
continue, and the government seems to have no intentions of
stopping anytime soon, Iran is looking like it is going to be a
reality, we're going to need troops any way we can get them.
|4.11.08 @ 9:35AM|#
By the time I was 18 I could drink more wine at
thanksgiving/christmas (my only parentally-sanctioned chances) than
my mom without getting tipsy.
That would indicate that you weren't drinking responsibly. I infer
that your limited options for drinking at home, motivated you to
drink elsewhere. Probably with people that did not stress and set a
good example of responsibility and moderation.
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 9:36AM|#
Oh, and for the poll, I enlisted at 17 with concent of
parents, just went over 29 years of total service including the IRR
and not 'malleable' either.
What, no cunt reference?
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 9:38AM|#
Looks like Elemenope is already demonstrating his drinking skills before 1000 Eastern.
|4.11.08 @ 9:38AM|#
14?
I could knock back 4 or 5 beers at a sitting by that
time.
Sorry to hear that.
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 9:42AM|#
Speaking of free stuff from the military, in the course of my flight physical (that began in January), I have gotten extra stuff besides the usual vital signs, sight/hearing tests and extensive blood work: EBCT, Cardiac Stress Test and Cardiac Catheterization for just the suspicion of a heart problem. Everything came out fine. Oh, free fish oil capsules too.
|4.11.08 @ 9:42AM|#
So 18-year-olds are drafted because they are easily malleable
and follow the leader.
Funny... I don't know of too many 18-year-olds in MADD :)
|4.11.08 @ 9:42AM|#
If you're stupid, you end up in the military? Didn't somebody recently say something in that vein, and the right wing media went absolutely bonkers?
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 9:45AM|#
Lamar,
Yea, it was a Yale grad Navy veteran who ran for president against
someone with a better GPA then him, plus went on for a Harvard
MBA.
Seems self validation knows no bounds.
The Beastie Boys|4.11.08 @ 9:46AM|#
"they are the last ones I want to say, 'Here's a gun, and here's
a beer.'"
I got the gun, you got the brew
You got two choices of what you can do
It's not a tough decision as you can see
I can blow you away, or you can ride with me . . .
|4.11.08 @ 9:48AM|#
That would indicate that you weren't drinking responsibly. I
infer that your limited options for drinking at home, motivated you
to drink elsewhere. Probably with people that did not stress and
set a good example of responsibility and moderation.
There was some of that going on, yes. But part of it is that my mom
is a colossal lightweight.
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 10:00AM|#
Looks like Elemenope is already demonstrating his drinking
skills before 1000 Eastern.
Guy, you clearly didn't read the three other commenters who
followed up their "been in the army, non-malleable" comments with
an impolite reference to the vag.
Clearly you are made of sterner, more honorable stuff.
And I never drink before noon.
|4.11.08 @ 10:00AM|#
If 18 is the "draft age", shouldn't you be able to get, you
know, a draft?
She's lucky she didn't get a burlap bag placed over her head
and then beaten with bamboo rods. She questioned the
troops!!!1!11!
Its not that she "questioned" the troops, its that she said
something irredeemably stupid and belittling to adults in the
military.
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 10:03AM|#
If 18 is the "draft age", shouldn't you be able to get, you
know, a draft?
Perhaps she is talking about vehicles following each other very
closely, like NASCAR and other types of racing?
Joel|4.11.08 @ 10:04AM|#
Economist:
Well, yeah. She's a dumb cunt. But...
Arguments seem to be:
1. Kids 18-21 are stupid and/or easily influenced.
2. Being stupid and suggestible makes you good for military
service.
With which of those arguments do you disagree? Because I don't
actually have a problem with either of them.
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 10:05AM|#
Guy, you clearly didn't read the three other commenters who
followed up their "been in the army, non-malleable" comments with
an impolite reference to the vag.
I clearly did as I answered the poll. Not sure why you would think
that I would join in the vulgarity, unless, you know, you never
bother to read what I write and keep applying assumptions to me
based on your own internal biases.
Nobody special|4.11.08 @ 10:11AM|#
I'm actually looking forward to the not to far future where the Veterans take over the country ala Starship Trooprs
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 10:11AM|#
BTE, The New Republic did give us evidence that some soldier-age folks are completely irresponsible. Oh, wait, he was a guy with a writing degree and he was working for TNR while doing his side job as a soldier. The Navy used to get them, one went on to become a Senator. Never mind!
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 10:14AM|#
Was going to add the Sergeant that was attending to me at Walter Reed yesterday seemed like a perfectly responsible and polite young man who could probably be trusted to drink, but he is 22, past the magic age range and all that.
|4.11.08 @ 10:14AM|#
I cannot believe that anyone in their right mind would argue
that it is ok to give some one a gun, send them to fight, kill or
be killed, but Lord forbid they have alcohol.
Puritans are such assholes.
People's stupidity never ceases to amaze me.
Episiarch|4.11.08 @ 10:18AM|#
You all fail to realize that alcohol is evil. It makes
otherwise perfect people beat their spouses, drive headlong into
cars filled with nuns and children, become Irish, have unprotected
sex, and miss church on Sunday morning.
Do you understand now that it's the alcohol and not people?
|4.11.08 @ 10:21AM|#
Arguments seem to be:
1. Kids 18-21 are stupid and/or easily influenced.
2. Being stupid and suggestible makes you good for military
service.
Reminds me of the line by Sean Connery's character in The Man Who
Would Be King:
"You are going to become soldiers. A soldier does not think. He
only obeys. Do you really think that if a soldier thought twice
he'd give his life for queen and country? Not bloody likely.
Probably wouldn't be anywhere near the battlefield. I can tell from
the foolish expressions on your faces that you'll all make fine
soldiers. This one here has the makings of a bloody hero."
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 10:21AM|#
Episiarch, yea, just like tobacco and fossil fuels. Making a living must be in there someplace too.
T|4.11.08 @ 10:25AM|#
Do you understand now that it's the alcohol and not
people?
But Epi, I do all those things sober. That's why I drink: to relax
after a hard day of being Irish, killing nuns, beating my wife,
taking candy from orphaned schoolchildren, and ruining the global
economy.
Bumpers|4.11.08 @ 10:30AM|#
The human brain isn't fully developed until about the age of 21. This is a biological fact. So 18-20-yearolds are sumewhat malliable.
|4.11.08 @ 10:33AM|#
Isn't this the same county that allows a 16 year old to drive a 3000lb car and have a cellphone?
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 10:33AM|#
I clearly did as I answered the poll. Not sure why you would
think that I would join in the vulgarity, unless, you know, you
never bother to read what I write and keep applying assumptions to
me based on your own internal biases.
I'll certainly have to add "humorless grump" to my imaginary mental
dossier of you.
Episiarch|4.11.08 @ 10:36AM|#
But Epi, I do all those things sober. That's why I drink: to
relax after a hard day of being Irish, killing nuns, beating my
wife, taking candy from orphaned schoolchildren, and ruining the
global economy.
It's still the alcohol. It's EVIIIIL!!!
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 10:36AM|#
Isn't this the same county that allows a 16 year old to
drive a 3000lb car and have a cellphone?
Yeah, but those are goddamned American birthrights! Alcoholism, on
the other hand, is for Europeans.
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 10:41AM|#
We still make 3000 lb. cars? I thought my 1972 'hybrid' Charger was the beginning of the end for that weight class.
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 11:05AM|#
We still make 3000 lb. cars?
Nah, but as the passengers have been getting steadily heavier,
everything sorta balances out. :)
Invisible Finger|4.11.08 @ 11:10AM|#
If I have a loaded gun, I can pretty much just TAKE the goddamn beer.
|4.11.08 @ 11:23AM|#
If I have a loaded gun, I can pretty much just TAKE the goddamn beer.
Not if you're fighting a war in a country that makes it illegal to
have booze.
LarryA|4.11.08 @ 11:30AM|#
We still make 3000 lb. cars?
Down here in Texas, high school student parking lots are full of
pickup trucks. Teachers drive the punycars.
I did my service back when there was a draft. As a 22-year-old 1LT
I ended up in the Vietnam jungle with a platoon sergeant who was 20
and soldiers from 17 to 19. Even though I don't drink, I got them
beer whenever we could safely unload our rifles.
The only trouble I have with this law is that it's limited to
soldiers. If you want responsible adults, teach your children to
handle responsibility. That's why they're
malleable.
|4.11.08 @ 11:34AM|#
Conscripts should be allowed to drink.
Volunteers, no. It would encourage people to volunteer for the
wrong reasons.
Hmmm. Two options are presented here.
Option A, a clearly worded, coherent dissertation explaining all of
the holes in Dave W's reasoning.
Option B, Short and sweet dismissal of Dave W. because he is merely
a mental midget, a moron and a fucking twat.
I'm going with Option B.
Kolohe|4.11.08 @ 11:35AM|#
'Here's a gun, and here's a beer.'
This is for fighting, and that is for cheer?
|4.11.08 @ 11:43AM|#
Arguments seem to be:
1. Kids 18-21 are stupid and/or easily influenced.
2. Being stupid and suggestible makes you good for military
service.
With which of those arguments do you disagree? Because I don't
actually have a problem with either of them.
Both of them. Although I'm unaware of your how mallabe you are,
your stupidity would likely disqualify you for military service. I
pen that with full knowledge that the Army and Marine Corps have
recently lowered their standards.
|4.11.08 @ 11:47AM|#
You all fail to realize that alcohol is evil. It makes
otherwise perfect people beat their spouses, drive headlong into
cars filled with nuns and children, become Irish, have unprotected
sex, and miss church on Sunday morning.
Become Irish? Damn, that changes my opinion
completely.
|4.11.08 @ 11:49AM|#
Alcohol would be one of the weaker drugs that deployed troops
enjoy after a hard day of occupation.
There's no age limit on hashish.
One of the reasons Afghanistan has had the largest poppy crop on
record is because there's so many soldiers over there to buy opium
and refined heroin.
It would be naive to think that Al Quaeda and the Taliban aren't
selling drugs to soldiers.
Or trading them for weapons and ammunition.
The Whine Commonsewer|4.11.08 @ 11:52AM|#
I still think the biggest travesty of all is that our troops in
Iraq can't have beer. Jesus Chrysler, it's hotter than hell over
there.
When I was in tech school the one thing that made things bearable
was that the EM Club had great burgers and cheap, cheap beer. And
the drinking age in Tennessee at the time was 18 (maybe 19).
Episiarch|4.11.08 @ 11:54AM|#
Become Irish? Damn, that changes my opinion
completely.
Of course. What's worse than being Irish?
|4.11.08 @ 11:57AM|#
The human brain isn't fully developed until about the age of
21. This is a biological fact.
Another statement that reeks of ignorance.
This "fact" is supported by ???
The human brain NEVER stops changing. It develops then atrophies.
If you weren't such a moron, you'd be aware of that.
ed|4.11.08 @ 12:00PM|#
I'm firmly convinced that prohibition is the root of Islamic violence. I think I'd drive a plane into a building too if all I had to drink after another soul-crushing day at work was frikkin' tea.
Taktix®|4.11.08 @ 12:00PM|#
She ranted that 18-year-olds haven't "developed, and that's
exactly why the draft age is 18, because these kids are
malleable.
The unspoken implication is that alcohol can dictate your behavior
as much as a drill instructor could.
Fuck you lady, I'm throwing back a shot for you tonight!
Kolohe|4.11.08 @ 12:02PM|#
One clarification on the military drinking age:
It's whatever the local standards are.
So in CONUS, Alaska, and Hawaii it's 21. But in Japan and Korea
it's (IIRC) 19. Guam and Puerto Rico it's 18, etc.
|4.11.08 @ 12:08PM|#
I am a United States sailor . . . joined when I was 26.
Everything that dumb twit said is immediately refuted by the fact
that many people in the military are like myself . . . joined at or
after the age of 21. Now, for those young men and women that do
join between 18-21 . . . they serve with just as much independence,
intelligence and distinction as the rest of us grunts and
swabbies.
As an older member of the Navy, I can say with confidence that just
as many of my thirty-something buddies act like assholes when
intoxicated as do the younger guys ;which is to say, contrary to
the caricature of soldiers and sailors, not many. This imbecile
just insulted the entire U.S. military, not just those younger guys
fresh from boot camp.
Michael Ejercito|4.11.08 @ 12:21PM|#
Actually... MADD threw Candy off the prohibition wagon when she started lobbying for the alcohol companies. Of course, I pretty much assume anyone who had any association (by choice) with MADD to be a lying prohibitionist asshole.
How are people in MADD lying prohibitionist assholes?
Michael Ejercito|4.11.08 @ 12:22PM|#
So in CONUS, Alaska, and Hawaii it's 21. But in Japan and Korea it's (IIRC) 19. Guam and Puerto Rico it's 18, etc.
So soldiers stationed in Germany can legally drink while off
duty.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 12:25PM|#
anyone who watch this suddenly remember their moms attitude when
they were 16?
god, now i remember the worst of it
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 12:26PM|#
Episiarch | April 11, 2008, 12:18pm | #
Drunken Irish, of course.
Isn't that redundant?
Hey.
Watch it. some of us are sober and angry about it
Michael Ejercito|4.11.08 @ 12:28PM|#
I cannot believe that anyone in their right mind would argue that it is ok to give some one a gun, send them to fight, kill or be killed, but Lord forbid they have alcohol.
I read somewhere that the reason the legal drinking age was raised
to twenty-one was to reduce the number of drunk driving
collisions.
Dave W.|4.11.08 @ 12:49PM|#
Option B, Short and sweet dismissal of Dave W. because he is
merely a mental midget, a moron and a fucking twat.
Don't enlist, kids. Don't re-enlist, volunteers. They are fighting
an unjust war and deserve no greater rights than "regular
citizens."
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 12:52PM|#
MayorOmalleySuxs | April 11, 2008, 12:38pm | #
Jackel the Carlos -
Bravo Zulu
Havent heard that since the day i left the navy
gives me a warm fuzzy that nearly negates my irish anger
Oh, and Dave W is a cockbreath
|4.11.08 @ 1:02PM|#
Kolohe | April 11, 2008, 12:02pm | #
One clarification on the military drinking age:
So that is the way it is today!
Back in the day, the enlisted clubs for the most part followed the
local regulations with one exception: 3.2 beer was sold to folks
under the local drinking age, though I am not sure about the
relatively rare 17 year old. I am sure there were local variation
because of the power invested in a commanding officer.
The difference between 3.2 and regular beer was rammed home to me
during my 1st boot camp Cinderella liberty at that garden spot
Great Lakes, IL. I was in the EM club drinking a beer. My buddy
offers to buy a round, which of course I accepted. He brings me
back a bottle of beer. As I am sitting there, a 2nd class petty
office is the duty host. He comes up to me and asks me for my id
card. After seeing that I was 18 he tells me to come with him to
the office. When we get to the office he starts writing up a report
chit. When I ask what I did wrong he just yells at me to shut-up. A
female officer comes in and asks me what is going on. Turns-out
that beer in cans was 3.2 and in bottles was the regular stuff. My
buddy was over 19, so he was served regular beer. Illinois law was
19 for beer and wine and 21 for hard liquor. Luckily the officer
believed me that I had no idea what was going on and told the 2nd
class to leave me be.
Mind you, I have been drunk as a skunk with my cousins in
Copenhagen drinking the local brew that is only 3 percent, but that
was back when I was young and malleable.
|4.11.08 @ 1:02PM|#
mayor and gilmore . . . big BZ's to the both of ya! An interesting aside . . . there are a very large number of libertarians in today's Navy, and I presume in the other branches as well. Without falling outside the watchful standards of my BigMil censors here at work, I will say that the reasons for this are obvious.
Episiarch|4.11.08 @ 1:06PM|#
gives me a warm fuzzy that nearly negates my irish
anger
You drunk yet?
|4.11.08 @ 1:08PM|#
Don't enlist, kids. Don't re-enlist, volunteers. They are
fighting an unjust war and deserve no greater rights than "regular
citizens."
My EOD officer nephew that is in Iraq and I write this I bet
doesn't agree with you. Becuase he is EOD, the enlisted that serve
with him are probably all over 21, but I still bet he'd agree that
the 18-20 year olds he is stationed with have EARNED the right to
drink stupidly if they so choose.
Active duty military personnel should be allowed to drink no matter
what the age on and off base.
|4.11.08 @ 1:09PM|#
...Iraq and I write this...
Of course that should be:
...Iraq as I write this...
Dave W.|4.11.08 @ 1:11PM|#
My EOD officer nephew that is in Iraq and I write this I bet
doesn't agree with you.
Yeah, I bet. The ones that don't go in with bad judgement about the
concept of just war are immediately brainwashed.
Despite this brainwashing, I still think conscripts should be
allowed to drink because they did not have a choice.
|4.11.08 @ 1:15PM|#
Arguments seem to be:
1. Kids 18-21 are stupid and/or easily influenced.
Some are, some aren't. Just like any adults. And, by the way, a
person who is 18 or older is not a "kid."
2. Being stupid and suggestible makes you good for military
service.
At one time, probably. These days, not so much. Military equipment
and doctrine is not so simple any more.
I would suggest keeping that particular opinion to yourself should
find yourself in watering holes in the vicinity of any military
bases, by the way.
T|4.11.08 @ 1:16PM|#
When I was stationed at Fort Bliss in the late 80s/early 90s, it was, as far as I know, the last CONUS installation that would let 18 year olds buy alcohol on post. The theory was they would rather have them drunk on this side of the border than drunk in Mexico.
J sub D|4.11.08 @ 1:20PM|#
Drunken Irish, of course.
Isn't that redundant?
You forget the category, Hungover Irish.
Joel|4.11.08 @ 1:22PM|#
J sub D:
I'm unaware of your how mallabe you are, your stupidity would
likely disqualify you for military service. I pen that with full
knowledge that the Army and Marine Corps have recently lowered
their standards.
I'm tempted to believe you're joking. Anyone who would even have a
conversation with an army/marine recruiter, let alone believe a
single word he says including a and the would
have to fit anyone's description of malleable and stupid. Yet kids
keep doing it.
Of course I say this during an election year, when supposedly
unmalleable, unstupid adults uncritically believe
everything candidates say...
Never mind.
|4.11.08 @ 1:31PM|#
Draft age.....? Did I miss a memo?
The "draft age" should be the age at which one can legally hoist a
frosty draft, but doubt that's what Socialists Against Drinking
Period are about.
Does this clip violate the Drinking Rules games and thus call for a
drink? If not, isn't it time to retroactively change the rules to
include the "dumb cunt" proviso?
|4.11.08 @ 1:34PM|#
I am a United States sailor
jackal the carlos, well said.
What rate? I'm a ex fire controlman/tin can sailor myself.
|4.11.08 @ 1:37PM|#
Joel, what do you do for a living. Something that displays your
superior intellect, no doubt. Mathemetician? Physicist? MD?
And no, I wasn't joking when I denigrated your intelligence.
|4.11.08 @ 1:37PM|#
Have quite a few buddies that are FC's . . . a rowdy bunch that
includes it's fair share of bookworms and wonderful 2 A.M.
and
twelve-shots down philosophers.
Joel|4.11.08 @ 1:44PM|#
Joel, what do you do for a living. Something that displays
your superior intellect, no doubt. Mathemetician? Physicist?
MD?
Nope.
And no, I wasn't joking when I denigrated your
intelligence.
Okay. Not sure what I did to rate your bile, but whatever.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 1:50PM|#
Episiarch | April 11, 2008, 1:06pm | #
You drunk yet?
No, hungover and angry. I swear to god if you were in arms length
you'd be in danger
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 1:56PM|#
Joel | April 11, 2008, 1:22pm | #
Anyone who would even have a conversation with an army/marine
recruiter, let alone believe a single word he says including a and
the would have to fit anyone's description of malleable and
stupid.
a) Everyone's an idiot except you.
Or, b) you're a douche.
Answer = B
Joel|4.11.08 @ 1:58PM|#
Again, not sure what I said that came across as so snotty and elitist. Have you ever talked to an army recruiter? They're lying scumbags.
T|4.11.08 @ 2:01PM|#
Again, not sure what I said that came across as so snotty
and elitist. Have you ever talked to an army recruiter? They're
lying scumbags.
Or maybe you don't know enough to critically evaluate what the guy
says, so he MUST be lying.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 2:02PM|#
Joel | April 11, 2008, 1:58pm | #
Again, not sure what I said that came across as so snotty and
elitist
You've been quoted. Twice. Try reading yourself sometime. You will
be really, really impressed.
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 2:05PM|#
Jeez, one thing is for certain; people hang out here so often
that their cycles are starting to synchronize.
Evidence: Everyone is apparently on the fucking rag today.
|4.11.08 @ 2:05PM|#
I signed the contract at 19, did my tour in West Germany , and
did just fine, thank you.
Now, at 42, I'm not malleable and she's a dumb cunt.
And I had to join the army because I couldn't give blow jobs good
enough to satisfy the navy.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 2:08PM|#
troy | April 11, 2008, 2:05pm | #
I couldn't give blow jobs good enough to satisfy the
navy
They've lowered the standards recently troy. You might have a
chance this time
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 2:09PM|#
Elemenope | April 11, 2008, 2:05pm | #
Everyone is apparently on the fucking rag today.
No. Hungover.
|4.11.08 @ 2:16PM|#
I'm cool with what you're saying, Joel. If my 19-year-old tried
to enlist under current conditions, I'd get him immediate
psychiatric attention. I think we've raised him right, however, so
I'm not worried.
But then, I'm just a Citizen (civilian) Nothing.
|4.11.08 @ 2:16PM|#
...Ahem.... I need to eat some crow.
I thought the "Joel | April 11, 2008, 1:22pm | #
J sub D:"
comment was written by J sub D, but it was written by Joel. My
comment was meant only as a gentle inter-service rivalry against
the sagacious, erudite (as well as a navy guy can be sagacious or
erudite) Mr. J sub D.
Hat Pines|4.11.08 @ 2:16PM|#
They are fighting an unjust war and deserve no greater
rights than "regular citizens."
Pretty much every war the U.S. fought in the past two centuries was
unjust, with the exception of WWII, which was only necessary
because of the unjust WWI.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 2:23PM|#
Troy =
My dad was a marine, and told me that the only thing worse than a
sailor was a fucking army knucklehead, followed by airforce desk
jockeys
the only way to fly, though, was to be an aviator. that was my/his
idea. didnt work out at all.
Elemenope|4.11.08 @ 2:27PM|#
No. Hungover.
Oh, I dunno. Some seem beyond the normal cranky headache today. I
mean, I had a slight hangover, but it's long gone now.
Kolohe|4.11.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Bad html.
Hier is an accurate state of the sitution wrt the military
drinking age, including explanations of the policy near the borders
and how its been modified in the recent past.
Kolohe|4.11.08 @ 2:32PM|#
And I had to join the army because I couldn't give blow jobs
good enough to satisfy the navy.
Now kids, *this* is how you trade insults.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 2:33PM|#
Kolohe | April 11, 2008, 2:25pm | #
I mean, I had a slight hangover, but it's long gone now.
You probably weren't playing pool until 3AM
|4.11.08 @ 2:34PM|#
I was on the USS Abraham Lincoln from 03-07 . . . now on shore duty, east coast. Yes, IREPS/AREPS . . . can't tell you how many nights I spent on that ship working up those products for EVERYBODY. Still, going up to the O-10, stepping outside and taking a weather observation in the middle of a moonlit night while steaming at 25kts . . . just sublime.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 2:40PM|#
Kolohe | April 11, 2008, 2:35pm | #
Now that shit is funny
My buddy from HS who was a criminal/metalhead/gluesniffer is now a
capt. in the Corps. Cant say they're totally wrong about the
stereotype.
still, they pull a few thinkers here and there. Most of the good
military history books i've read in the last few years have been by
marines.
Episiarch|4.11.08 @ 2:59PM|#
No, hungover and angry. I swear to god if you were in arms
length you'd be in danger
OK, so are you drunk now? It's been like an hour.
Where are all the other Micks like Jamie? Broad-based potato-eater
insulting is much more fun when there are more around.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 3:03PM|#
Episiarch | April 11, 2008, 2:59pm | #
OK, so are you drunk now? It's been like an hour.
Still on the coffee.
Going back to face down the pool table again around 4-5PM. Should
be drunk again around 6. Good looking out.
|4.11.08 @ 3:06PM|#
No. Hungover.
You probably weren't playing pool until 3AM
Eh, I can relate. Friday's suck for that reason -- it's just too
hard to pass up Thursday night $1.50 pints of any micro and/or
Guinness though... Glad to see it's finally noon so can get a pint
at lunch to help the recovery.
GILMORE|4.11.08 @ 3:15PM|#
...misplaced apostrophes
lol
I just quit a job yesterday working for guys that didnt know how to
punctuate for shit. I mean, horribly off. It was like they were
*trying* to fuck up everything they wrote. They didn't know the
difference between plural and possessive. Or the function of
commas. At all.
I kept pointing it out to them. They finally said it was a
deal-breaker. I thought it was hilarious that we parted ways over
my insistence that they at least learn grammar and punctuation if
we were going to work together. Seriously though, if you had to
spend the amount of time I did decoding their emails, you'd have
quit too. it was fucking embarrassing.
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 3:43PM|#
So, nominalis decides to revive the myth of Vietnam, that
professional soldiers are just a bunch of dope addicts, just like
their deriders would like to be if only the supply here were the
same as there. Odd thing, the VA ramped up a load of intake centers
for the Vietnam guys that nobody showed up for. Somehow, the myth
still persists, through movies and leftie media folklore. Now the
new troopers are being imagined with the same brush, with no more
evidence than the last fabrication.
Alcohol would be one of the weaker drugs that deployed troops enjoy after a hard day of occupation.
There's no age limit on hashish.
One of the reasons Afghanistan has had the largest poppy crop on record is because there's so many soldiers over there to buy opium and refined heroin.
It would be naive to think that Al Quaeda and the Taliban aren't selling drugs to soldiers.
Or trading them for weapons and ammunition.
The Whine Commonsewer,
I still think the biggest travesty of all is that our troops in
Iraq can't have beer.
Neither can the troops in Afghanistan.
Those of us remembering all of the different drinking policies must
remember that the policy has changed a lot over the years. In the
mid-1980s the on-post drinking policy was whatever the local
drinking polisy was, which worked fine except for Ft. Campbell, on
the border of KY and TN. In KY, the drinking age had been 21 for
ages, I was not allowed to buy beer at w Who concert in Louisville
when I was a 20 yo. 2LT, but not long after that TN had changed
their law to 19, unless you were active military, period. I don't
remember what Ft. Campbell did then but it was a big jabberbate.
BTW, that post is mostly in TN, but the post office is in KY, thus
it is called Ft. Campbell, KY.
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 3:55PM|#
Awsome ad Nick! Great work!
Grand Theft Auto IV, I believe, is a different game than Grand
Theft Auto SA (that my voice is heard in) but it was commonly
called GTA4.
|4.11.08 @ 4:14PM|#
My comment was meant only as a gentle inter-service rivalry
against the sagacious, erudite (as well as a navy guy can be
sagacious or erudite) Mr. J sub D.
Aww, shucks.
*blushes*
|4.11.08 @ 4:17PM|#
I signed the contract when I was 17, with a parental unit.
I'm
Now at 43, I'm not mallable and she's a dumb cunt. I wasn't very
mallabe at 17 either, which caused me a couple of problems.
The oaths were funny. The Marine Corps one sounds about right. I
left my finger print in his eye, and my bite mark was taken from
what was remaining from his left ear. Fuck his damn paper form.
|4.11.08 @ 4:54PM|#
We still make 3000 lb. cars? I thought my 1972 'hybrid'
Charger was the beginning of the end for that weight
class.
I wish we still made 3000 lb cars. Most cars sold today are well
over that weight - your typical v6 midsize sedan (camry, accord,
etc.) is around 3500 lbs. You have to drop into tee-tiny category
(yaris, fit) to get under 3K, and those are still 2500 lb
cars.
American appetite for large and luxurious cars has certainly played
a significant role, but federal safety regs sure haven't helped
anything.
|4.11.08 @ 6:50PM|#
So 18-year-olds are drafted because they are easily
malleable and follow the leader.
No wonder Nixon was so gung-ho on lowering the voting age...
|4.11.08 @ 7:00PM|#
Let's hear from Tim Wilson, the libertarian comedian:
You can go to war when you're 18
But you can't buy a beer
You can lob missiles from a submarine
But you can't buy a pistol here
You can breathe chemical weapon skims
But they don't want you to smoke
so when you're shootin' up a bar in Baghdad, don't order a rum and
Coke
You can have sex when you're 17
You just can't have a cigarette
You ain't old enough for a slot machine
Or to lay down a football bet
But they'll take you to the clinic if you're 15
And your folks don't have to know
Or you can take penicillin, just don't watch people
Gettin' naked on video
You can be a governor at 21
Or a president at 35
You can be the senator from South Carolina
If you can just stay alive
They'll throw you in with sharks when you're 12 years old
Teach you to scuba dive
But when you're 94 and can't see anymore
they'll still let you drive
Just don't get caught with no beer in your hand if you just turned
18
They don't mind you ownin' a sedoline torch
and a gallon of gasoline
You just can't buy smokes at the liquor store or y'all will both go
to jail
But they'll sell you a rope
so you can hang yourself while you're listening to Nine Inch
Nails
It's a sorry World
It's a sooorry world
It's a sorry world when you can raise young'uns but you can't smoke
a Marlborough
It's a sorry world when you're 17 and you can't call a
callgirl.
Actually, I'm sort of libertarian: leave my money alone, do all
the heroin you want, and good luck with it..."
-Tim Wilson
Guy Montag|4.11.08 @ 7:37PM|#
No wonder Nixon was so gung-ho on lowering the voting
age...
Actually, that was President Lyndon Baines Johnosn, but it did not
get through the Congress (quickest Amendment ever) until Noxon was
in office in 1972ish. Nixon was all about ending conscrip0tion and
enlisted the great Milton Friedman, who provided great help in that
effort.
Not sure what your point may have been, but don't think that
history is on your side.
The Whine Commonsewer|4.11.08 @ 10:46PM|#
When I was a Marine, that's M-A-R, uh, now wait, M-A-R-, wait, I
know this.....
We were taught there was only two kind of Navy personnel. One was
Corpsmen. The others lived in West Hollywood.
The Whine Commonsewer|4.11.08 @ 10:49PM|#
Joel, Recruiters stopped lying sometime back. About the time my
grandfather was assured the Army would put him trough the rest of
medical school when they really meant he could drive a Model T
ambulance at Ft Snelling.
I went through back when Christ was on Mess Duty and it was pretty
much the way they said. Well, except for the part where no matter
how bad anyone tells you basic training is, it's worse.
The Whine Commonsewer|4.11.08 @ 11:01PM|#
And here is Sir Jasper's post in video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMGs-b3p9FU
hittin\' \'n\' runnin\' in th\|4.11.08 @ 11:18PM|#
"the VA ramped up a load of intake centers for the Vietnam guys
that nobody showed up for."
the VA ramped up those intake centers because guys in Nam were
shooting up. Bigtime.
It's much more a commentary on the myths around heroin addiction
than it is a statement about Viet era GIs.
They didn't show up at the treatment centers because once they were
home the pain and the fear of living in a killing zone were
gone.
Guy, if you weren't fucking there, you'd do fucking well to stop
talking about what a piece of fucking cake it was, tough guy.
Kevin Carson|4.12.08 @ 2:50AM|#
I think her argument was that anyone gullible enough to be taken in my the military's recruiting pitch lacks the judgment for responsible drinking.
Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 5:20AM|#
hittin' 'n' runnin' in th' jungle,
How cute! A new troll (or, perhaps an old one hiding his handle)
proposes that one must be an eye witness to discuss a topic, while
it is impossible for him to have tracked all the people he asserts
were heroine users. Sorry dude, not working here. Perhaps when you
are an admin. you can start silencing people on H&R.
hittin\' \'n\'runnin\'|4.12.08 @ 5:28PM|#
Fuck you, montblog.
No, if you haven't had cancer it's fine to comment on how bad
cancer is.
But some motherfucker tells me cancer's a piece of cake I'm going
to know he's full of shit.
The history is plain about what guys who actually saw combat went
thru. But then tough guys like you always know better.
|4.12.08 @ 9:30PM|#
Well, I am twenty, so only a few more months to go until I
magically gain a capability to drink, and I stop following the
leader.
At the moment, even trace amounts of alcohol will cause you
permanent brain damage, severely impairing your decision-making
ability for the rest of your life. The very second you turn 21,
however, your brain undergoes a sudden, radical, reconfiguration,
and you can thereafter drink moderate amounts of alcohol
safely.
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