Jacob Sullum | March 19, 2008
Defending the Washington, D.C., gun ban before the Supreme Court yesterday, Walter Dellinger insisted it was never the city's intent to prohibit residents from using rifles and shotguns for self-defense in the home. All it wanted to do, Dellinger said, was ban handguns, because they are highly portable, readily concealable, easily stolen, and uniquely suited to urban crime. Even if (as seems likely) the Supreme Court rules that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to arms, he said, it should uphold the handgun ban as a "reasonable regulation":
Chief Justice John Roberts: What is reasonable about a total ban on possession?
Dellinger: What is reasonable about a total ban on possession is that it's a ban only on the possession of one kind of weapon, of handguns, that's been considered especially dangerous....There is no showing in this case that rifles and [shotguns] are not fully satisfactory to carry out the purposes [of self-defense].
But as Roberts, Justice Samuel Alito, and Justice Antonin Scalia noted, D.C. requires that all firearms, including long guns, be kept "unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock or similar device." The statute does not include an exception for self-defense. It thus seems to rule out unlocking and loading a gun even while under attack, let alone keeping one loaded and unlocked in case of an attack. Dellinger nevertheless maintained that the law does not prohibit the possession of functional firearms in the home, contrary to the interpretation the city has offered in previous cases and the one it implicitly endorsed at the U.S. District Court level in this case.
The District, which initially was openly contemptuous of the argument that D.C. residents should be allowed to defend themselves with guns, apparently has warmed to the idea. "It is a universal or near universal rule of criminal law that there is a self-defense exception," Dellinger said. "We have no argument whatsoever with the notion that you may load and have a weapon ready when you need to use it for self- defense." He added that "there ought to be an opportunity for the District of Columbia to urge its construction, which would allow for a relatively robust self-defense exception to the trigger lock provision." To which Scalia replied:
I don't understand that. What would that be—that you can, if you have time, when you hear somebody crawling in your bedroom window, you can run to your gun, unlock it, load it, and then fire? Is that going to be the exception?
Dellinger said he reads the storage requirement as permitting two options: "unloaded and disassembled" or "bound by a trigger lock" (as opposed to "unloaded and disassembled" or "unloaded and bound by a trigger lock"). In other words, it's OK to keep a gun loaded as long as it's locked, which Dellinger said can be accomplished with a combination lock that can be removed in three seconds. Two justices wondered if the operation would be that fast in an actual emergency:
Scalia: You turn on the lamp next to your bed so you can turn the knob at 3-22-95...
Roberts: You turn on the lamp, you pick up your reading glasses...
At another point Dellinger said a good test case would involve "a loaded gun on [the] night stand, no children present, without a trigger lock." If a gun owner could escape conviction for violating the storage requirement in those circumstances, he said, "I think then the statute might well be constitutional." If not, "in my view, it probably wouldn't be."
Note that all of Dellinger's proposed end runs around the plain language of the storage requirement involve getting arrested for exercising the fundamental right of self-defense and hoping the courts will be sympathetic—a situation that, as I argued last week, should be considered unacceptable. In the end, Dellinger basically invited the Court to throw out the storage provision, saying, "if we are wrong about that and the trigger lock [requirement] is invalid, that has no effect on the handgun ban."
A transcript of the oral arguments is available here (PDF). A ruling is expected in June.
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Thanks for keeping up with this case, Jacob. I'm waiting with bait breath to see how it turns out.
I can't possibly take the time to read the transcript, but it
sounds like Dillinger Dellinger got his ass
handed to him for trying to make such contradictory,
stupid arguments. It sounds very positive. Is that your take too,
Jacob?
SAGE, YOU FOOL, THAT'S "BATED BREATH." THE VIKING
MOOSE, OUR EXPERT AT ALL THINGS BATING, ASSURES THE URKOBOLD THAT
THIS IS SO.
THE URKOBOLD DOES NOT CARRY FIREARMS IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.
HOWEVER, HIS BODYGUARDS DO AND DO SO WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE.
I've seen 5-4 predictions. I wonder at what levels of "watering down" (for lack of a better term) we would see a 6-3 or even a 7-2 decision?
I've seen predictions ranging from 5-4 to 7-2.
I'm going to stick with being cautiously optimistic.
Does anyone who's more familiar with the Supreme Court know if
examining these pre-ruling discussions is a valid technique for
predicting the outcome?
Also, watching the left wing media absolutely LOSE THEIR FUCKING MINDS over this has been the high point of my month.
Also, watching the left wing media absolutely LOSE THEIR
FUCKING MINDS over this has been the high point of my
month.
I'd concur with that opinion.
It was just glorious to read Dalia Litwich whine in Slate yesterday about how evil conservatives were trying to enforce a constitutional right that would have the courts mucking around in the business of gun laws for the next 50 years. She actually said that without irony. Watching liberals meltdown over this and argue that the Constitution should be read to restrict individual rights is just fabulous.
back in the founders day you had to bring your own weapon to even join a militia, so dellinger's militia only claim is retarded. The people are armed to ensure an armed militia will be available.
I wonder at what levels of "watering down" (for lack of a
better term) we would see a 6-3 or even a 7-2 decision?
Yes, but will they shoot it down?
Also, watching the left wing media absolutely LOSE THEIR
FUCKING MINDS over this has been the high point of my
month.
Oh, I dunno. The big bad left-wing media has never slobbered over
gun control the way the right continually drools over abortion. It
simply doesn't register in the same way to most people.
The only whining that I have heard thus far has been lefties
hammering on the "well, you're only into judicial restraint when it
isn't one of your precious rights on the block" argument, which
FWIW is absolutely fucking true.
p.s. I'm thinking 6-3.
One potential outcome of this is that military grade weapons will be lawful... M4s for all.
I actually read the entire manuscript. It is not at all clear that more than ROberts, Scalia and Alito are leaning toward an individual rights interpretation.
It was a joke, yo.
Not to be pedantic, but is every news service printing the second
amendment wrong? They are all placing a comma between "Arms" and
"shall." I thought there was no comma there. Could someone clear
that up for me?
One technical point: you aren't supposed to put a trigger-lock
on a loaded firearm. Why? Because attempting to do so means fooling
with the trigger of a loaded firearm! Bang!
All trigger locks come with instructions which emphasize that they
must only be used on unloaded guns. Certified shooting instructors
are trained to teach students never to try to attach a trigger lock
to a loaded gun.
Dellinger is an idiot.
Victor,
That is a really good point. I have never owned a trigger lock so I
had never thought about it but rule number one in firearms safety
is never fuck with the trigger of a loaded weapon.
Elemenope,
That is not true. The right to bear arms is an explicit right in
the Constitution. Conservatives have never agrued against rights
spelled out in the constitution, only against creating rights that
are not there or were concieved of at the time of the writing.
FWIW, I'm not seeing this as a very passionate issue on the
left. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but for example a quick
search on dailykos for "Heller" yielded no hits in the last
month.
I think the anti gun wave peaked quite a while ago, and most folks
across the board are agnostic on the issue.
"Gun control" has a real 1970's feel as an issue for the left, like Robert Redford and nuclear power. Most of my liberal and lefty acquaintances don't seem to get too excited about it any more. Maybe the fact that "shall issue" laws have not led to carnage in the streets has something to do with it. In the end, hard facts can eventually crush even the most rigid ideology.
Wayne: Clarence Thomas will side with individual rights too, I'm
SURE of it. He just doesn't talk much at all. I don't think he has
asked a question during oral arguments in over 2 years.
Kennedy will, as always, be the swing vote, although there is an
indication that he's leaning toward joining the pro-gun
votes.
My guess is that Roberts, Scalia and Alito will deliver a majority
opinion. Kennedy will either join that decision or write a
concurrence and Thomas will almost definitely write a concurrence.
The end result will be that some sort of gun control will be
maintained, but the ban will be partially overturned -- enough to
allow a reasonable level of self-defense.
sage
My copy has a comma there.
This one
doesn't.
I'm going to try to find a photo of the original
parchment...sigh.
Note that all of Dellinger's proposed end runs around the
plain language of the storage requirement involve getting arrested
for exercising the fundamental right of self-defense
OK, legal eagles, do state-level assualt and homicide laws include
explicit language in black-and-white providing for a self-defense
exception, or is it sort of read into the law based on tradition,
common law, or previous rulings?
Most of my liberal and lefty acquaintances don't seem to get
too excited about it any more. Maybe the fact that "shall issue"
laws have not led to carnage in the streets has something to do
with it.
That's part of it. Also coming into play is that fact that a lot of
the gun control agenda - background checks for purchases, for
example - has been implemented and is considered so unremarkable
that even the NRA not advocates for its enforcement.
The gun control lobby is comparable to MADD, in that so much of
their original agenda is the law that only people with extreme
ideas are really keyed up for more.
The gun control lobby is comparable to MADD, in that so much
of their original agenda is the law that only people with extreme
ideas are really keyed up for more.
And yet MADD is still around, and far from trying to get in drunk
people's cars they are instead trying to lock up parents whose kids
happen to have a drink in their own home.
Not a good comparison for a gun lover like myself.
"OK, legal eagles, do state-level assualt and homicide laws
include explicit language in black-and-white providing for a
self-defense exception, or is it sort of read into the law based on
tradition, common law, or previous rulings?"
Depends on the state. Generally the term "unlawfully" is read to
encompass self defense since if you have a right of self defense
you are not guilty of unlawfully killing someone. Some states will
list out sepcific defenses to murder and assault in statute some
states will do it through case law. Sometimes states will enact
stautory language to explicitly over turn case law for example when
states pass so called "make my day laws" which take away the duty
to retreat within one's own home.
By the way, for intellectually inclined liberals, Larry Tribe changing his mind and deciding that 2A probably does protect an individual right was a huge deal. It would be difficult to overstate the prestige of Tribe in liberal legal circles.
The problem with gun rights is that the courts have avoided
making any blanket statements about them. All of the amendments
have been interpreted all over the place over the years, so what
the Second Amendment really lacks is the judicial history that,
say, the First Amendment has. There's also the question of whether
the Second Amendment has been "incorporated", which will not be
settled by a DC case.
Apropos of nothing: Americadome. 300 million go in, 150 million
come out.
The comma issue is controversial. Original documents vary in the
use of the comma(s).
"Gun control" has a real 1970's feel as an issue for the left...
I think the gun control impetus was largely a creature of the Baby
Boomer generation, who came of age during the era of political
assassinations, followed by the 70s increase in crime.
One thing I've noticed looking at CHL holder statistics published
by the Texas DPS is that the bell curve (which is nonetheless
pretty wide and flat) peaks around men in their late 50s / early
60s. I think as folks get older they begin to feel more physically
vulnerable vs. the criminal ages, and their politics change
accordingly. Thus the fading of the Boomers love of gun
control.
What bugs me the most is the Constitution's odd silence about sword rights. Look what happened to the Scots!
Duh, crime. Of course, Kap.
Gun control, like a lot of issues, was driven by fear of crime
during the 20-year crime wave from about 72-92.
It's tough to remember now, but being "tough on crime" used to be
the most important political issue in the country. Mike Dukakis
lost because of that issue. Think of the origins of "bleeding-heart
liberal," and who liberals were supposed to have such sympathy
for.
Today, the Justice Department can't even get the press to notice
when they fearmonger about reduced crack sentences.
I think the gun control impetus was largely a creature of the Baby Boomer generation, who came of age during the era of political assassinations, followed by the 70s increase in crime.
For the most part, I would agree with this statement.
The main exception being the National Firearms Act.
Media, would you agree that NFA was a product of the Bonus Army, not the gangster years?
I like what Ted Nuggent said about the right to self defense in
a interview.
Basically he said to forget the Constitution, laws, or anything
else for that matter. As a living being on this planet given the
gift of life we need not ask anyone to be allowed defend our life
when in danger.
To me this says it all. Plain and simple you only have one life to
lose and once its gone thats it. So in the end who is to say you
can or can not defend yourself when they are not the ones in
danger?
Last time I checked most animals will fight till the death to
defend their lives and continue to live because the only
alternative is assured death. There is no second chance when the
shit hits the fan. Maybe this is why all those that would have us
be defenseless often have so many people with guns around to
protect them.
Sorry but I don't put the life of anyone with the exception of my
family above mine. Just because your a jackoff politician doesn't
give you the right to be defended while you insist the rest of us
get slaughtered.
As for Dillpickle opening a trigger lock in 3 seconds lets see him
do that from a dead sleep in the middle of the night in 3 seconds.
What a dumbass.
And that's the natural rights argument. Which was once a central tenet of American liberty and was the critical tension between the Constitution and the contradictions in our system (incomplete suffrage, slavery, etc.).
Oh, and for anyone who's interested, Josh Sugarmann lists the
street address of the Violence Policy
Center, his employer as the location for his Federal License to
deal in firearms.
You can see this for yourself by going to the ATF's online Federal Firearms License
Holder EZ Check website and enter 1-54-XXX-XX-XX-00725 into the
blank fields.
I find it interesting that the Executive Director of the nation's
most virulently anti-gun 501(c)(3) non-profit has the a
er, has a license that is expressly issued by the BATFE for dealing in firearms.
Found it on wiki. Yep, there's a comma.
The comma conundrum delves deeper than you think. Some say that a
clerk who made copies for the Continental Congress added that coma
after the fact.
I forget where I heard it, and therefore know not the credibility
of the source, but it's worth a google...
I've seen predictions ranging from 5-4 to 7-2.
I'm going to stick with being cautiously optimistic.
I'm predicting anything between 9-0 and 0-9.
I have never owned a trigger lock
I have. I bought a couple of pistols that included a cheap one in
the box.
I threw 'em away. If I'm going to lock a gun up, it goes in the
safe. The ones that anre't not locked up, are loaded and ready to
use.
Oh, I dunno. The big bad left-wing media has never slobbered
over gun control the way the right continually drools over
abortion.
I take it you're very young, Elemenope. I remember the halcyon days
of the eighties. What happened is the media basically lost the
debate because regular folks continued to own guns and want to own
them despite constant media drooling and fifteen page editorials in
Time magazine, then the nineties saw a precipitous drop in crime
rates that couldn't be linked to any specific gun control measures.
Then Democrats got beaten up at the polls whenever they opened
their mouths about guns. The media drooled a lot about gun control
issues, but they found it was merely a closed feedback loop where
the only people listening were other media types.
Walter Dellinger insisted it was never the city's intent to
prohibit residents from using rifles and shotguns for self-defense
in the home.
A politician tells a baldfaced lie! Stop the presses, that's never
happened before!
So, isn't it about time for that clown to get busted smoking crack
or something? That's what DC mayors do, isn't it?
-jcr
Media, would you agree that NFA was a product of the Bonus Army, not the gangster years?
Hmmm. It's an interesting notion, but other than that, I don't know
how likely the Bonus Army would have played into it.
I do recall finding a website once that had scans out of an old
magazine about the Tommy Gun and how criminals were using them and
they thusly needed to be banned. A cursory Google search isn't
turning anything up, though.
The article itself was indistinguishable from the rantings of the
anti-gun crowd with the exception that modern anti-gun advocates
don't go on at length about how it's a bad idea to let black people
own guns.
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be
infringed."
Comma be damned, it doesn't change the meaning. I could show this
to a sixth grader and ask, what shall not be infringed? I bet
he/she would have the right answer. It's plain friggin English.
John That is not true. The right to bear arms is an explicit
right in the Constitution. Conservatives have never agrued against
rights spelled out in the constitution, only against creating
rights that are not there or were concieved of at the time of the
writing.
I think this is a wrong way for conservatives to think. The
constitution was intended to spell out the powers of government,
not the rights of the people. Thus, no powers not expressly written
were supposed to be available to the (Federal) government, and
everything else belonged to the states or the people.
Not that many people here need to hear this, but it's Con. Law 101 that the Bill of Rights is intended to be a limit on government power, not a grant of rights. The rest of the Constitution is mostly concerned with defining the limited powers of government. Well, the formerly limited powers.
Thus, no powers not expressly written were supposed to be
available to the (Federal) government, and everything else belonged
to the states or the people.
That's crazy talk. The nine amendments of the Bill of Rights are
clearly a cohesive framework that fully demarcates the powers and
the rights delegated to the states and to the people.
Thus, no powers not expressly written were supposed to be
available to the (Federal) government, and everything else belonged
to the states or the people.
I think you're getting into double negatives here, with the
concomitant ambiguity in meaning.
In any event, the Tenth Amendment makes that issue clear:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,
nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people."
In other words,
-If the Con says the Feds can do it, then they can. (Which
means, they do.)
-If the Con says the Feds can't do it, then they can't. (Which
means, they usually do anyway.)
-As per the 14th Amendment, the previous item applies to the states
as well; a law prohibiting free speech or restricting due process,
for example, is repugnant to the Con, so neither the states nor the
Feds can do it. (But somebody please explain this to the GOP,
and the Dems too.)
-If the Con says nothing about it, then the Feds still can't do it,
no way no how. Those unenumerated rights are reserved to the states
or to the people.
What's left unsaid is how the unenumerated rights are divided
between the states and the people; that, presumably, is left to the
states.
Oops, I left out my italicized comment for the last item in my
previous post. it should read (not surprisingly):
(Yet they still do it anyway.)
J. P. Carlo
You are probably correct. NOT logic was never my strong suit. I
often wrote inelegant code in order to avoid it. But you seem to
have gotten my meaning anyway.
It would be difficult to overstate the prestige of Tribe in
liberal legal circles.
Lawrence Tribe's prestige in liberal legal circles is as huge as a
galaxy, and it can travel faster than the speed of light. It also
is responsible for creating the universe, and is the ruler of all
humankind.
See? It's not difficult. So, hah!
At another point Dellinger said a good test case would
involve "a loaded gun on [the] night stand, no children present,
without a trigger lock."
So only empty-nesters can defend themselves. Think of the
children!
I'd also like to see a nightstand big enough to hold a rifle or
shotgun.
THE URKOBOLD DOES NOT CARRY FIREARMS IN THE DISTRICT OF
COLUMBIA. HOWEVER, HIS BODYGUARDS DO AND DO SO WITH EXTREME
PREJUDICE.
See the
Buckeye Firearms Foundation brief (PDF) in reference to the
D.C. position on private security.
They are all placing a comma between "Arms" and "shall." I
thought there was no comma there. Could someone clear that up for
me?
There's a hi-res image of the original BoR at
www.archives.gov. Remember to look at the
fourth article, as two of the proposed amendments
weren't adopted. The short answer is "yes."
rule number one in firearms safety is never fuck with the
trigger of a loaded weapon
That's Rule 2. Rule 1 is "Always point your firearm in a safe
direction."
OK, legal eagles, do state-level assault and homicide laws
include explicit language in black-and-white providing for a
self-defense exception, or is it sort of read into the law based on
tradition, common law, or previous rulings?
AFAIK most if not all contain some form of "justification of use of
force and deadly force" laws. In Texas, where I teach, it's found
in Chapter 9 of the Penal Code. There's a Texas DPS Concealed
Handgun Laws booklet here. (PDF)
See particularly p 57-60.
You're welcome to come take my class.
I don't understand that. What would that be-that you can, if you have time, when you hear somebody crawling in your bedroom window, you can run to your gun, unlock it, load it, and then fire? Is that going to be the exception?
Obviously, the solution is for the District to include in its
handgun ban a clause requiring anyone breaking into a residence to
"knock and announce" and then allow sufficient time for the
homeowner to unlock, assemble and load his gun.
Obviously, the solution is for the District to include in
its handgun ban a clause requiring anyone breaking into a residence
to "knock and announce" and then allow sufficient time for the
homeowner to unlock, assemble and load his gun.
Of course the police would be exempt from the requirement.
thank God I live in TX. I would be such a felonious bastard in commieville, erh...D.C. how can one read the second amendment and come to any other conclusion than the fact we are guaranteed the right to self-protection individually? Hell, if it weren't for a maligned militia at the time, there wouldn't have been a need for a constitution, much less a new country. Lefties should be on the first boat back to good ole mother England if they are so upset. Better yet, Australia. good luck defending yourself against gun toting shitheads when all you have is a knife...Gun control kills innocent citizens.
joes asks OK, legal eagles, do state-level assualt and
homicide laws include explicit language in black-and-white
providing for a self-defense exception, or is it sort of read into
the law based on tradition, common law, or previous
rulings?
In the California code, there is an explicit provision for
justifiable homicide, i.e. self-defense. Surprisingly, it allows
deadly force not just for the protection of life, but of property
also - which I used to think was only a provision of Texas law.
The big bad left-wing media has never slobbered over gun
control the way the right continually drools over abortion. It
simply doesn't register in the same way to most people.
It used to be a huge issue, in the 70s and 80s, right up there with
forced busing of kids into much much worse school districts. Both
issues have since faded away, largely because most people realized
the left was wrong.
It used to be a huge issue, in the 70s and 80s, right up
there with forced busing of kids into much much worse school
districts. Both issues have since faded away, largely because most
people realized the left was wrong.
The MSM isn't pushing gun control so much for the same reason the
politicians are carefully avoiding the issue. Too much public
opposition. But if you think it has "faded away" search Thomas.gov
for introduced federal legislation.
On the state level there are a number of new gun control ideas
perculating, including serial numbering cartridges, ballistic
"fingerprinting," microstamping, smart guns, "assault rifle" bans,
etc.
I keep track of Texas legislation on the Texas Concealed Handgun
Association site. Every year, mostly the same suspects trot out
their gun control bills. I don't expect 2009 to be any
different.
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