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Second Amendment Scrutiny
On the eve of oral arguments in District of Columbia v. Heller, here are a few articles that may be of interest to people following the case:
Alan Gura and Robert Levy, two of the lawyers representing D.C. resident Dick Heller in his Second Amendment challenge to his city's gun ban, summarize their arguments in the Legal Times.
The New York Times notes the division between Solicitor General Paul Clement and Vice President Dick Cheney regarding the level of scrutiny that gun control should get under the Second Amendment, mentioning the Robert Novak column I discussed last week.
The intra-administration split is also mentioned in The Washington Post's preview of the case.
Gura and Levy say the Supreme Court need not specify a level of review: "Because Dick Heller challenges a categorical ban on handguns, as well as a near-total prohibition on exercise of Second Amendment rights relating to long guns, the outcome of the case does not depend on applying a specific constitutional standard of review." But if the Court decides to set a standard, they add, strict scrutiny—meaning that regulations must be the least restrictive means of achieving a compelling government interest—is clearly appropriate, since the right to keep and bear arms, which grows out of the right to self-defense, is a fundamental right. They say regulations such as "the ban on felons possessing firearms, instant background checks for gun buyers, and sentence enhancements for using a gun in commission of a crime" would survive strict scrutiny.
In my column last week, I suggested that if D.C.-style gun control does not violate the Second Amendment, it's hard to imagine what sort of gun control would.
|3.17.08 @ 2:14PM|#
Anybody around here ever fire a Glock model 22? I might be able
to get one on the cheap. I probably have a larger than average hand
and want something that will fit comfortably.
Plus (and this is the coolest), maybe someday I can get a kit and
make it into one of these.
|3.17.08 @ 2:24PM|#
I haven't fired a Glock, but to me the grip feels like a plastic 2x4. Many people swear by them so I doubt you can go wrong.
|3.17.08 @ 2:27PM|#
If D.C.-style gun control does not violate the Second Amendment,
then the Second Amendment is worthless. It would be like arguing
that prohibiting women younger than 50 from getting abortions would
not violate Roe v. Wade.
If the court rules this way, the States will need to call for the
first-ever Constitutional Convention to fix this.
|3.17.08 @ 2:35PM|#
Can't go wrong with the Glock. They don't feel quite as good in my hand as some others, but I am slightly more accurate with Glocks. Very durable. Just make certain you are OK with the trigger safety (the only safety on the gun).
Episiarch|3.17.08 @ 2:38PM|#
I might be able to get one on the cheap.
My rule is, if you can buy just about any gun really cheap, just
buy it. You can always sell it later for profit, and if it's a
piece of junk you can abuse it or give it away.
KipEsquire|3.17.08 @ 2:39PM|#
"strict scrutiny -- meaning that regulations must be the
least restrictive means of achieving a compelling government
interest"
That's only the definition of "strict scrunity" in the context of
restrictions on speech -- often called "strictest scrutiny."
The "fundamental rights" version of strict scrutiny is "narrowly
tailored to a compelling government interest" -- still pretty
strict, but less so than "the least restrictive means."
(Indeed, Gun and Levy use the correct definition in their op-ed.)
:-)
|3.17.08 @ 2:45PM|#
I know, you know, we all know, the people, NOT the US Supreme
court decides what the US Constitution says. Got it.
If the supremes decide wrong, time for civil war.
Libertarian militia forever, huuu!
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 3:19PM|#
Or sell it to a police trade-in.
Indeed.
I have a Jennings I got years ago for $70. DC was handing out $150
for a handgun, I could have made some money on it, except I missed
it as I was notified too late. Darn the bad luck.
Glocks-I shot one for years in competition, carried one, owned as
many as 8 at one time, I believe, but now pretty much exclusively
use CZs. Glocks are good for what they are, they shoot a lot better
than people give them credit for. I would always make sure to have
at least one about.
The real test of a true Glock shooter is if they know what "Glock
Knuckle" is.
|3.17.08 @ 3:21PM|#
Come'on now guys. Spend a couple extra bucks and buy a Sig. Now that's a quality handgun.
Episiarch|3.17.08 @ 3:23PM|#
but now pretty much exclusively use CZs
I have a CZ 97B. Fucking amazing. No good for carry (too big) but
ridiculously accurate and comfortable to shoot, right out of the
box.
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 3:24PM|#
Anybody around here ever fire a Glock model 22? I might be
able to get one on the cheap. I probably have a larger than average
hand and want something that will fit comfortably.
Use a Hogue wrap around the grip, you'll be fine. My son has very
long fingers, and he shoots ok with it. Shoots better with a EAA
Witness, feels better in his hand with his fingers half as long as
my arm, but a Glock is ok.
|3.17.08 @ 3:25PM|#
The real test of a true Glock shooter is if they know what
"Glock Knuckle" is.
Would that be anything like "Garand Thumb?"
|3.17.08 @ 3:26PM|#
The real test of a true Glock shooter is if they know what "Glock Knuckle" is.
Can't say I've ever had Glock knuckle. M1 thumb, however, is a
bitch.
Guy Montag|3.17.08 @ 3:26PM|#
As soon as the USSC rules in favor of Heller I can legally
walk from Arlington, VA into DC with a loaded concealed pistol? Um,
as soon as the USSC rules for Heller and that concealed in federal
parks law is signed I can As soon as the USSC rules for Heller and that
concealed in federal parks law is signed and DC recognizes my TN
CCP, I can
legally walk from Arlington, VA into DC with a loaded concealed
pistol?
legally walk from Arlington, VA into DC with a loaded concealed
pistol?
Looks like we have a ways to go before the region joins
civilization.
Glock thing:
So many people like Glocks that you are probably not going wrong
getting it. After a gun dealer who used to sell them almost
exclusively gave me a first-person account of a bad experience (and
stopped selling them completely) I am just not getting one.
Not enough evidence to spoil the whole batch. My pref. is with 1911
style autoloaders anyway.
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 3:30PM|#
but now pretty much exclusively use CZs
I have a CZ 97B. Fucking amazing. No good for carry (too big) but
ridiculously accurate and comfortable to shoot, right out of the
box.
Ep-A couple years ago, I got a CZ 75 stainless. Out of the box,
looked cool, never shot it. Like a bonehead, I decided to use it
for the MD State IDPA championships just because I wanted to shoot
it. Of my flight, I was within 0.01 of the guy with a custom 45
model, with an out of the box not broken in pistol. I was amazed.
Completely outshot the Glock 19 I had used the previous year.
Has nothing to do with the rights, just a really nice firearm.
Guy Montag|3.17.08 @ 3:30PM|#
Warty,
Yea, I worked with a guy who had it happen to him (the one I
mentioned upthread). Was pretty much leaning to Para Ordnance at
the time and his experienced tipped me to what I was considering
anyway.
robc|3.17.08 @ 3:32PM|#
Cant go wrong with a glock. Every one Ive shot has been
nice.
I carry a Sig P239.
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 3:36PM|#
Can't say I've ever had Glock knuckle. M1 thumb, however, is
a bitch.
Due to the configuration of the grip, most people overgrip the
Glocks. Not all, but most. If you overgrip, you'll find that the
bottom of the triggerguard on the Glock is none too kind on the
middle knuckle of the middle finger. Hurts like hell after about
400 rounds, or a couple days of 300-500 rounds. If you go to one of
the schools that doesn't teach you much but has you put 1000 rounds
downrange in a day, it can get really bad.
People blame it on the grip, but it's a function of the shooter not
the gun.
I'll avoid any further threadjacking with technical discussions of
individual firearms, but to say that I sold my Sigs, I kept one
Glock, and have a boatload of CZ's and Witness guns, and a couple
XD's. The XD's have extractor issues after a few thousand rounds,
so they'll probably go sometime soon too.
Episiarch|3.17.08 @ 3:38PM|#
My only complaint with the 97B is that hollowpoints will occasionally catch on the edge of the feed ramp and jam. Not hard to un-jam and doesn't happen that often, but annoying. You would never use hollowpoints in it if you were carrying because of that tendency.
Guy Montag|3.17.08 @ 3:39PM|#
BTW, on the skeet and wobble ranges this weekend my shooting
buddy was an Air Force Sgt., who shoots competitive skeet, with one
of those really fancy shotguns (over/under, 12 GA w/tubes for 20,
28 and .410) and a Mossberg over/under.
He kept saying my Saiga-12 looked "evil" :)
He won skeet with over 20 to my SIX (freakin SIX! Cindy Sheehan
could shoot that without glasses!) then I beat him on wobble 23 to
his 15.
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 3:39PM|#
Warty | March 17, 2008, 3:26pm | #
The real test of a true Glock shooter is if they know what "Glock
Knuckle" is.
Can't say I've ever had Glock knuckle. M1 thumb, however, is a
bitch.
Have to learn to use the heel of the hand...;>
Episiarch|3.17.08 @ 3:42PM|#
Guy, maybe you should take some skeet lessons. You know,
swing-through, different leads at different stations, etc.
Because 6 is BAD.
Guy Montag|3.17.08 @ 3:47PM|#
E,
That Saiga takes me a couple of rounds to get used to. When I take
the Benelli pump I am usually up in the mid 20s.*
The huge gas tube over the barrel of the Saiga messes me up until I
stop trying to point the end of my barrel and just look down the
tube. If you see one you will know what I mean right away.
*BUT I CAN'T TAKE THE BENELLI BECAUSE THE STUPID RANGE NAZIS WON'T
ALLOW ANYTHING SHORTER THAN A 23" BARREL!!!!
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 3:48PM|#
My only complaint with the 97B is that hollowpoints will
occasionally catch on the edge of the feed ramp and jam. Not hard
to un-jam and doesn't happen that often, but annoying. You would
never use hollowpoints in it if you were carrying because of that
tendency.
Ep-One more and I'll shut up. It sounds like you just need someone
to do some reliability work on it. If you want, go here, DR is a
world class shooter, instructor, and very practical guy. I'm sure
others could do it also, this guy just happens to be my instructor
so I've learned to trust him too.
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 3:51PM|#
Cindy Sheehan could shoot that without glasses!
Dammit, Guy, you now owe me a coke and a paper towel!
Episiarch|3.17.08 @ 3:54PM|#
Matt, I realize I could have it modded by the gunsmith to fix
it. I kind of find it to be a shame because the thing is otherwise
amazing--and for $600-700.
Guy, are you saying that you get almost perfect scores in skeet
using a manual-pump gun?
Guy Montag|3.17.08 @ 3:57PM|#
If you are calling 21-23 "almost perfect", yes.
If you have never used a Benelli Nova Pump (after a little bit of
practice), then you would not be surprised either.
One thing I found out quickly, these new guns don't let you rack
them with the trigger pulled. Must release before slide will
move.
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 4:03PM|#
Matt, I realize I could have it modded by the gunsmith to
fix it. I kind of find it to be a shame because the thing is
otherwise amazing--and for $600-700.
I've had one problem with a CZ, factory fixed it no hesitation.
Might want to look at that too.
Episiarch|3.17.08 @ 4:05PM|#
Impressive.
Skeet is fun and I have not reached the "I get 25 every time
because skeet never changes and I have it down" stage yet, so I
enjoy practicing. But trap is much more fun and I'm very good at
it.
BakedPenguin|3.17.08 @ 4:10PM|#
Since this has turned into the handgun forum, let me ask: does anyone have experience with Taurus? I was considering getting one of their .40 S&W or .45 ACP models.
|3.17.08 @ 4:14PM|#
BP,
My shooting buddy had a Taurus 45 and liked it OK. He got it after
having lots of trouble with an el-cheapo 1911. He ended up selling
it and getting a S&W 9mm. The main reason was magazine
capacity. Be sure to consider that when looking at a 45. AFAIK most
of them will be no more than 8 or 9 rounds, but with a 9mm or 40
you're looking at 15-17 rounds.
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 4:21PM|#
Since this has turned into the handgun forum, let me ask:
does anyone have experience with Taurus? I was considering getting
one of their .40 S&W or .45 ACP models.
Taurus is ok, doing much better of late. Trigger on the 24/7 and PT
111 models suck for accuracy, but if you're not shooting much and
want something that gives some resistance in case of adrenaline
rush, it's ok.
Other Matt|3.17.08 @ 4:28PM|#
AFAIK most of them will be no more than 8 or 9 rounds, but
with a 9mm or 40 you're looking at 15-17 rounds.
Or you can look at an XD in 45ACP, with 13.....
However, back to the original thread with DC v Heller, Second
Amendment Sisters is holding a rally in front of the SC steps
tomorrow, if anyone is interested. Specifics are here. Unfortunately due to some
family medical issues I will not be able to make it, but it will be
interesting to see if anyone can.
instant background checks for gun buyers
I really like how they keep "instant" in there...these seven day
waiting periods are nothing more than a pain in the ass with no
purpose.
|3.17.08 @ 4:35PM|#
If the court rules this way, the States will need to call
for the first-ever Constitutional Convention to fix
this.
Please God no. I tremble to think what a Constitution crafted by
today's politicians would look like.
|3.17.08 @ 5:07PM|#
I probably have a larger than average hand and want
something that will fit comfortably.
Pick up one of the high-cap Para-Ordnance guns (I have a P14-45)
The double-stack magazine makes for a nice, thick grip that I
really like.
Mine needed a little tweaking on the feed ramp to prevent
hollow-point hangup, and is a wonderful gun.
Mith|3.17.08 @ 5:18PM|#
I have a .45 made by a spanish company called Star. Love it.
Don't remember the model offhand, but It's very small for a .45,
but is well balanced and shoots great. I liked it a lot more than
the Glock .45 my dad had.
Problem is it only has a six shot clip, so you actually need to
aim...
I've shot a couple of Taurus pistols including a .45 I believe,
didn't like them that much. For me the balance was wierd on all of
them, and I didn't find them as accurate. That's probably more my
fault than the gun though.
Mith|3.17.08 @ 5:24PM|#
Ah, found a link for the Star:
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg113-e.htm
Other problem is they are double action, still a great gun
though.
Paul|3.17.08 @ 7:18PM|#
My rule is, if you can buy just about any gun really cheap,
just buy it.
Heavy is good. If it does not work, you can always hit him with
it.
|3.17.08 @ 11:26PM|#
I'm going to go way out on a limb with a prediction: I predict
that it will be 9-0 that the 2nd protects a fundamental individual
right requiring strict scrutiny. But they'll split on whether the
DC ban is constitutional under this standard. One of the opinions
will be that guns are so uniquely and horribly eeeevil that even a
blanket ban would pass strict scrutiny.
It's even possible that this will be the majority opinion, in which
case the result will resemble what would have been an Onion
headline in a saner world: "Supreme Court Strikes Down 2nd
Amendment As Unconstitutional."
|3.18.08 @ 1:29AM|#
Sure, Sage, get the Combat Tupperware. Your ammo will stay fresh for up to six months.
|3.18.08 @ 1:33AM|#
"People blame it on the grip, but it's a function of the shooter
not the gun."
Nope. If it happens with one type of gun and not another, it's the
gun and not the shooter.
Myself, I carry a .45 Gunsite Service Pistol, because I care enough
to send the very best.
|3.18.08 @ 8:37AM|#
I own two glocks. I have never heard of "glock knuckle". I attended the four day handgun class at FrontSight and fired about 1100 rounds during those four days. The glock worked perfectly and my hand was just fine. About half of the people attending wers shooting glocks and I never heard a single complaint from any of the ones I talked to.
LarryA|3.18.08 @ 10:42AM|#
instant background checks for gun buyers
Instant except if you have a name too close to someone else's or
some such. When I worked in a gun store I had several customers who
almost always got delayed, then it's three business days.
Of course in Texas a concealed handgun license cures that
problem.
Contrary to spousal opinion I don't have "one of everything that
shoots," but I have seen a lot of guns in 25 years of teaching. I
prefer to shoot a Colt 1911, but I carry a Glock because I don't
rust it. (I can't wear copper, etc. I was always having to clean
the Colt grip screws.) Mine is a 30, .45ACP/ten-round
magazine.
I'm also a firm believer in, "You'll do best with the gun that
suits you, not the one the experts like."
Guy Montag|3.18.08 @ 10:51AM|#
Episiarch,
Impressive.
Thank you, but I did not get out there the first time and shoot
those games that well. Took several going-through-a-case-of-shells
weekends to get there and if I don't shoot for a couple of months
it takes a few rounds to get it back.
Skeet is fun and I have not reached the "I get 25 every time
because skeet never changes and I have it down" stage yet, so I
enjoy practicing.
I still have yet to get 25 in *any* game! But being consistantly
over 20 is happy-space for me. I carry around a Cuervo hat just in
case it happens by accident or something. Might have been there by
now if the range I go to had not "outlawed" my Benelli. Need to
fork out some cash for a 23" or longer barrel, or just get another
Nova Pump with a longer barrel, ghost ring sights, threaded for
chokes.
But trap is much more fun and I'm very good at it.
I am better at trap and wobble than skeet too, at least I am
consistantly a couple of birds higher with them than skeet, i.e.,
if I shoot high-teens to 21 on skeet I usually am over that by 2 or
3 on the other games and not below 20 on the same day. Have to use
the Saiga for them anyway since it is my only gun with choke tubes.
Scrap is okay too.
OHGC: My son swears by his H&K USP COmpact .45 that I bough for
his birthday #21.
Guy Montag|3.18.08 @ 10:55AM|#
Instant except if you have a name too close to someone
else's or some such. When I worked in a gun store I had several
customers who almost always got delayed, then it's three business
days.
Or if you 'boldly' leave the optional SSAN block empty on the fed
and VA form when purchasing the Benelli mentioned above.
Somehow that made my 'instant' check take the full 3 working days
to be approved by Richmond.
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