Hillary on the Edge

David Weigel | January 7, 2008

DOVER, NH - I knew Hillary Clinton was comfortable talking (and talking) about the details of policy, but I'd say she's half again as cozy tearing into Barack Obama and John Edwards. At the start of her speech she said the debate had clarified the race. "My two opponents were finally asked... some questions," she said. "I didn't mind spending 15 debates debating myself." OK, funny. "I kind of enjoyed it." You see? Too far.

Her attacks on her two close competitors were straight from the debate and didn't always make sense. On Obama's eloquence: Rhetoric is wonderful but "when the words end, the speech is over." Because... no speech has survived to inspire people? "When you say you're against PATRIOT Act as a senator, and you vote for it, that is not change." But Obama voted with the filbustering minority to delay PATRIOT renewal in late 2005, then voted for renewing the revised act... like, uh, Clinton.

She took another chance to nick Obama on a question about illegal immigration. "I don't support drivers licenses for illegal immigrants," she said, and referred a little to the infamous Philly debate. "By the way, Senator Obama does support drivers licenses for illegal immigrants. He's on the record supporting them." Hear that, delicate middle-aged white women in the audience?

That illegal immigration answer was a little nutty, weirder even then an answer on Latin America when she said she could understand why Evo Morales was popular and that we should reach out to Third Worlders who want health care and benefits. On immigration she said she'd thought about the logistics. "Can you imagine here in the Live Free or Die state if people knocked on your door and said, 'We're checking to see if there are illegal immigrants here'?" Second later she said she favored asking illegal immigrants to "come out of the shadows" and offer themselves to be deported. Trust us, Anne Frank, you can come out of that closet!

Oh, and Hillary predicted Al Qaeda might "test" the new president because terrorists bombed London after Gordon Brown took over. "You're hiring a president to be there when the chips are down." I left not quite agreeing with one of the songs blasted on the PA: "Every little thing she does is magic, every little thing just turns me on."

Help Reason celebrate its next 40 years. Donate Now!

Try Reason's award-winning print edition today! Your first issue is FREE if you are not completely satisfied.

stoneymonster|1.7.08 @ 2:08PM|#

Sounds like she's taking a strategy out of Rudy's winning playbook....

9/11!

|1.7.08 @ 2:15PM|#

Hillary would make a good vice-presidential candidate for Obama.

She's make a good attack dog during the campaign; she would be trusted to be tough enough and to know her way around the White House if the president gets blown up; and none of the right-wing loonies would shoot him.

|1.7.08 @ 2:18PM|#

Haha,

Hillary Clinton, our new Dick Cheney, lol

|1.7.08 @ 2:23PM|#

On the Patriot Act, it does seem like Hillary was implying that Obama had done the wrong thing, but even if she can convince us that she's no different than Obama, that should, logically, be enough to demonstrate that he does not represent change compared to her.

BTW, I"m for Obama. After that, I don't mind Hillary. As for Edwards, err, maybe I wouldn't vote at all then.

|1.7.08 @ 2:26PM|#

The latest news is Clinton teared up at a campaign event saying how hard it had been to campaign. Can you say "Edmund Muskie"?

|1.7.08 @ 2:27PM|#

Hillary would make a good vice-presidential candidate for Obama.

Maybe so, but Obama would be a fool to choose her. No President wants a VP who would be capable of stealing the limelight.

I think a good VP choice for the Dem nominee would be Chris Dodd.

As to Hillary's attacks on Obama, they seem like she is just kinda flailing around throwing lots of shit hoping something sticks. And wasn't Hillary for licenses for undocumented aliens until Spitzer changed his mind and she followed suit?

|1.7.08 @ 2:29PM|#

No, the best VP would be Brad Henry of Oklahoma. White southern-type guy with 80% approval ratings in a Republican state. Hes also also young like Obama (42 IIRC).

Richard|1.7.08 @ 2:29PM|#

Uh, anyone else think that comparing illegal immigrants to Anne Frank is teeeeennsy bit over the top?

|1.7.08 @ 2:30PM|#

Did anyone else see her with Chris Matthews?

The were going toe-to-toe on-air, both standing up, and when the camera went off, they walked towards each other.

She said, "Ohhhh, Chris-to-pherrrrr!!!" in sort of a mommy-to-crying-toddler voice, and he sort of thumb-pinched her cheek, and she patted him on his cheek.

It was actually sort of...I don't know...cute, and human.

The latest news is Clinton teared up at a campaign event saying how hard it had been to campaign. Can you say "Edmund Muskie"?

Can YOU say "crocodile tears"?

|1.7.08 @ 2:32PM|#

Anne Frank was an illegal immigrant? Does that mean she got away, after all? Wow, that's not what I learned in school.

joe,

Where's Warner when you (more you than I, but still) need him? What a terrible crop of candidates we have.

Chicago Tom,

Did you see Obama's victory speech? Marilyn Monroe couldn't steal his limelight. The man's got game. Bill Clinton game. John F. Kennedy game. Hillary got no game.

But yeah, flailing is right.

|1.7.08 @ 2:37PM|#

Did you see Obama's victory speech? Marilyn Monroe couldn't steal his limelight. The man's got game. Bill Clinton game. John F. Kennedy game. Hillary got no game.

Joe I agree, but it seems like as a VP pick, as someone who would serve along side you for 4 years, you want someone low key. You don't want someone who is going to generate a lot of press and take any credit away from you going into a re-election.

There's a reason why Dan Quayle types traditionally chosen as running mates. Even Dick Cheney -- for all the influence and power he has wielded during the Bush years -- remained relatively low key and stayed out of the public eye as much as possible

|1.7.08 @ 2:39PM|#

He can't choose a woman or another minority. He needs a southern, centrist white guy.

Think the above-mentioned Brad Henry. Phil Bresden. Mike Easely. Someone like that.

|1.7.08 @ 2:42PM|#

As a libertarian, Obama isn't likely to ever make me happy, but I think he'd be a much more acceptable candidate in the general sense if he'd left the Senate to be governor of Illinois or something before actually running for POTUS. There's a not-entirely-wrong perception that he's supposed to be somehow pre-anointed for making a good speech at a convention. Although "experience" often means "corruption" (in the political-insider if not the moral sense), voting on some vague "message" is a bad idea. This goes for Edwards, too, who is even more vapid.

If John Edwards wins the nomination, I hope he taps John Edward (the speaker to the dead dude) as his running mate.

|1.7.08 @ 2:44PM|#

Chicogo Tom,

I'll point you to Hillary's years as a Senator.

When she took office, I just assumed she would be a media-grubbing celebrity and be very presumptuous in her demands, but she suprised me. She was a low-key, hardworking freshman Senator. But then again, regardless of what she actually does, she is a such a favorite target of both the mainstream and conservative media that she may well end up in the headlines constantly anyway.

Cesar, yeah, you're probably right.

I have to say, I like the idea of making Hillary VP so nobody will try to kill Obama.

|1.7.08 @ 2:48PM|#

Cesar, Chi-Tom, PL,

Do you think Bill Richardson fits the bill?

|1.7.08 @ 2:50PM|#

Do you think Bill Richardson fits the bill?

No, because hes a minority. Sorry to be blunt but the ticket needs balance.

Watch our governor down here Tim Kaine. Hes fairly popular, young, and he endorsed Obama early when Clinton was "inevitable".

HRC would be a terrible choice for VP. She's carrying heavy baggage and the GOPers would call her the "Shadow President."

|1.7.08 @ 2:53PM|#

Richardson might be okay, though his poor campaign counts against him. He should've been a viable dark horse this year. But, somehow, he isn't. He's also Hispanic, which might make the ticket too affirmative actiony looking for middle America. Not that I'd worry about that issue over much if he were good otherwise.

If any of the frontrunners on the Democratic side is elected, he/she will need an experienced VP (to get there and to accomplish much)--à la Bush and Cheney, regardless of the merits of said POTUS and VPOTUS.

The latest news is Clinton teared up at a campaign event saying how hard it had been to campaign. Can you say "Edmund Muskie"?

It's OK, girls are allowed to cry.

Except in baseball.

|1.7.08 @ 2:55PM|#

I have to say, I like the idea of making Hillary VP so nobody will try to kill Obama.

It's worked for GWB so far.

|1.7.08 @ 2:57PM|#

I agree, Pro-Lib, that the days of the eye-candy Vice President and the "I'll run with the bastard, but he's not going to do squat in my White House" Vice President are gone.

Bingo|1.7.08 @ 2:57PM|#

What about Al Gore as Veep? Southerner(ish), "Middle-aged White Guy" safe demographics, has the trendy Green thing going for him, doesn't really carry as much baggage as any of the Clintons. Also, he's not currently serving in political office, which is another plus for bringing "change"

Peter|1.7.08 @ 2:57PM|#

If it's between Hillary and Rudy, I'm voting Cthulhu.

|1.7.08 @ 2:58PM|#

It's worked for GWB so far.

Yeah, people are afraid of Cheney. Not just that he'd become President, but that he would actually pop up and shoot them in the face if they tried anything.

|1.7.08 @ 3:00PM|#

I'm sure Obama, or any of them, would take Gore in a second, but he wouldn't do it.

"I'm sick of politics, I like what I'm doing, I don't need to be president, I can do more good...wait, what's that? VICE-President? Oh boy!"

joe,

I hate to say this, but I've always wondered if we're susceptible to the babe candidate, especially of the female variety. VP Scarlett Johansson?

|1.7.08 @ 3:01PM|#

Its unconstitutional for Gore to accept. I believe that whatever requirements and limitations are placed on the President, they are placed on the Vice President too. Including two terms.

Plus, with the rejection of Clinton I think people have made it clear they'd rather not re-live the 1990s.

|1.7.08 @ 3:02PM|#

I agree Pro Lib.
I was thinking of Richardson for Obama's running mate too.
But how he screwed this up so royally.. I don't know. For starters, he should be leagues ahead of John Edwards.

|1.7.08 @ 3:03PM|#

Cesar,

The language in the Constitution is, to paraphrase, "No one who is precluded from being president may be vice-president." Serving two terms as VP doesn't preclude you from being president.

I could be wrong, though.

The latest news is Clinton teared up at a campaign event saying how hard it had been to campaign. Can you say "Edmund Muskie"?

Hey, those were "melting snowflakes" to you, mister man.

|1.7.08 @ 3:04PM|#

Cesar,

No, that applies solely to the presidency.

|1.7.08 @ 3:05PM|#

Richardson is a lover, not a fighter. Nobody wants to see yet another v.p. candidate go all sissy in the debates, like Lieberman and Edwards did.

Bingo|1.7.08 @ 3:05PM|#

Cesar: as far as I can tell, the 22nd says nothing about VP, unless you know of a supreme court decision on the matter.
22nd amendment

And LiT - Gore is basically the perfect VP choice, much better than Pres

|1.7.08 @ 3:06PM|#

Hillary would make a good vice-presidential candidate for Obama.

Chicago Tom stole my thunder, but I'll second his emotion. Hillary would be terrible in two ways: first she would undermine Obama, either because of her "celebrity" or because she and Bill Clinton know how to use backchannel political power and have more back channels available to them by virtue of Bill's 8 years in office.

Second, selecting her gets Obama virtually no political advantage. What constituency - except Mark Penn, DLC-types - like her but are wary of him? None.

Third, selecting her means that the Republicans can drum up their base using her as the scapegoat.

|1.7.08 @ 3:07PM|#

Sigh. Do I have to campaign?

No! We'll put up a still photo of you and run a voiceover, like in that Star Trek episode. No one will know the difference!

|1.7.08 @ 3:08PM|#

Reinmoose,

Yeah, given his great resume and reasonably moderate positions, I thought he'd kick ass. Didn't work that way. Paul's doing better on the other side of the aisle, for Zod's sake!

joe,

Gore was never president, so he's Constitutionally eligible.

|1.7.08 @ 3:09PM|#

Bingo,

Oh, I'm sure, but it's hard to not sound insulting when you're basically telling someone "Sorry, you're no choice for a CEO, but you make a great president in charge of media relations."

I like Obama and would vote for him if there are only anti-life candidates (Guliani and Obama for example) left at the end. He seems kind of naive but maybe that's a good thing these days.

|1.7.08 @ 3:10PM|#

"ANNE FRANK??" To which death camp will the Illegals be sent? What a clueless remark.

|1.7.08 @ 3:13PM|#

"Can you imagine here in the Live Free or Die state if people knocked on your door and said, 'We're checking to see if there are ~~illegal immigrants~~ guns here'?"

The problem with Nazi analogies is that they allow people to talk about how outraged they are instead of the point you were trying to make.

No matter how much you nailed them.

|1.7.08 @ 3:14PM|#

It's going to be Richardson. He hardly looks like a minority, hell, he's the tallest hispanic that I've ever seen. Also the story about him steering his caucus votes to Obama may have been true, and for what?

|1.7.08 @ 3:17PM|#

Do you think Bill Richardson fits the bill?

I would have to agree with the other posters who believe that Richardson would bring too much color to the table. It's sad, but I think it is true that in order for Obama to be chosen by many voters in places like Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin, he would have to be perceived as an anti-Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton.

I think a Richardson VP selection would hurt him in that regard as it would allow him to be perceived as a minority candidate. (As it stands, I think Obama has gone out of his way to make race a non-issue in the race, and he has even had certain segments on the black community calling him "too white". Heck he even got Jesse Jackson Jr to smack down Jesse Jackson Sr in an OP/ED when Jackson Sr accused Obama of ignoring the plight of the black man)

Furthermore, Richardson has been a disappointing campaigner. I don't see what he would bring to the table for a candidate Obama.

That's why I like Dodd. He is low key, doesn't have much baggage, is a nice pasty white fella and has a signature issue of wanting to protect the Constitution (which should tie in nicely to Obama who had a focus on Constitutional Law before becoming a politician)

|1.7.08 @ 3:20PM|#

Chicago Tom,

Your analysis of Richardson is wordly and realistic, but when you bring up the Dodd, you suddenly talk in terms of ideals and desires.

Dodd was a terrible campaigner, worse that Richardson, and is a northeastern liberal.

|1.7.08 @ 3:21PM|#

I doubt Richardson's got the juice to get the VP nomination. I'm guessing it will be one of the white, southern Democratic governors, too, regardless of who gets the presidential nomination.

Click \'n\' Learn|1.7.08 @ 3:22PM|#

I think I've figured out why Weigel is afraid to ask politicians questions: because he's afraid that they'd wipe the floor with him.

So, on second thought, I urge Weigel not to ask Hillary a question: she'd use the opportunity to show that she's not some crazy OpenBorders libertarian shill.

Mr. X|1.7.08 @ 3:29PM|#

The latest news is Clinton teared up at a campaign event saying how hard it had been to campaign. Can you say "Edmund Muskie"?

Ironically, on the same day, she's comparing herself to Margaret "The Iron Lady" Thatcher.

In other news, Bill thinks the cell phone stunt was such a big success for Rudy that he should try it too.

|1.7.08 @ 3:30PM|#

Anyway, does this mean we can put away the "Inevitable Hillary Who Owns the Democratic Party" thing?

And a good part of the assumptions that went into such an inaccurate perception?

Juan|1.7.08 @ 3:30PM|#

The problem with Nazi analogies is that they allow people to talk about how outraged they are instead of the point you were trying to make.

No matter how much you nailed them.

If only there were some kind of law against this... ;-)

"she'd use the opportunity to show that she's not some crazy OpenBorders libertarian shill."

Hillary is what people want her to be or what she perceives they want her to be. One minute she supports drivers license for illegal immigrants, the next minute when she sees how unpopular they are, she's against them. She's a flip-flopper and she's trying to accuse Obama of being one. She points to Obama being for drivers licenses for illegal immigrants, but at least Obama stands on his principles. He doesn't switch with the wind the way Hillary does.

.|1.7.08 @ 3:35PM|#

Godwined before the first comment. Impressive.

|1.7.08 @ 3:36PM|#

She never said she supported drivers' licenses for Paperwork-Deprived American-Joiners. She said she understood why the governor thought they were necessary.

Throwing around "flip flop" any time someone makes a statement that doesn't fit on a bumper sticker is ruining this country, because it gives a leg up to idiots and slicksters.

|1.7.08 @ 3:37PM|#

idiots and slicksters

...a nice way of saying "Mike Huckabee," if you ask me.

|1.7.08 @ 3:38PM|#

I call a lot of people stupid, and I don't understand where the "Huckabee is an idiot" thing comes from.

|1.7.08 @ 3:39PM|#

Joe, having a southern accent automatically takes 15 points of ones IQ to a lot of people.

|1.7.08 @ 3:41PM|#

but when you bring up the Dodd, you suddenly talk in terms of ideals and desires.

Your right.

The things I think Dodd brings to the table over Richardson are 1) Being Pasty-White. 2) Supporting the Constitution and a check on the Executive (which I'd like to believe will resonate with "Independents" and maybe left leaning libertarians--both of them:))

But I'll admit it's some wishful thinking on my part.

I wouldn't be surprised of Obama goes with someone who wasn't in the primary at all. Possible someone who is a conservative Demcorat with the belief that a conservative Dem running mate may mitigate the "too liberal" line of attack that will probably come during the general

.|1.7.08 @ 3:42PM|#

.. I hope you don't mean Joe Lieberman

|1.7.08 @ 3:44PM|#

"Hillary would make a good vice-presidential candidate for Obama."

At the risk of joe calling me a moonbat, I think Obama cares more about his life than to have Hillary as his vice-president.

|1.7.08 @ 3:45PM|#

I was going more for Huckabee as a slickster, but whatever.
I don't think he's stupid, necessarily. Just a smooth talker without much to offer.

|1.7.08 @ 3:46PM|#

Hehe, funny how it always gets back to the fact that a woman CANNOT be tough. I am a white male and I can even see that. If you get tough you are considered a b*tch. Plain and simple

|1.7.08 @ 3:49PM|#

And if you raise your voice half a decibel, you're shrill. Heaven forbid it should go up a half-step in tone!

|1.7.08 @ 3:50PM|#

I have never been more involved with any election until this one. Hillary has what it takes from day 1 to get the job done. Look at Bill in 1992. He was atleast Governor of Arkansas for 10 years before he made a run at President. Proven experience in Leadership. Things are not the way it used to be 30-40 years ago. America needs a leader with experience and Hillary is the one.

VM|1.7.08 @ 3:50PM|#

"I wouldn't be surprised of Obama goes with someone who wasn't in the primary at all. Possible someone who is a conservative Demcorat"

Kennedy-Johnson as an example.

Capitol Steps has a "Huckabee" song to the tune of "Let it be".

The Giuliani one was "he's running on nine eleven" to the tune of "stairway to heaven".

:)

|1.7.08 @ 3:51PM|#

"Every little thing she does is magic, every little thing just turns me on."

I just about threw up into my mouth with that one.

Brett|1.7.08 @ 3:52PM|#

I call a lot of people stupid, and I don't understand where the "Huckabee is an idiot" thing comes from.

He thinks the world was created 6000 years ago, which is enough for me.

I agree with you on the history of HRC's stance on DLs for illegals (not really a flip-flop), but for her to all of a sudden have an opinion the day that Spitzer gave in to the backlash was rather pathetic.

Years ago, somebody on this blog called her Panderella, and the name still fits.

I'm getting some enjoyment watching the collapse of her campaign.

.|1.7.08 @ 3:53PM|#

Paul --

Understandable, but on the other hand, very few people have the experience of Rummy and Cheney. Nixon had experience too. Experience != Good President

1992 redux|1.7.08 @ 3:55PM|#

It's the personality, stupid.

|1.7.08 @ 4:00PM|#

How much experience did Abraham Lincoln have? Experience means nothing if not tempered with wisdom and humility.

|1.7.08 @ 4:03PM|#

"I'll point you to Hillary's years as a Senator."

"When she took office, I just assumed she would be a media-grubbing celebrity and be very presumptuous in her demands, but she suprised me. She was a low-key, hardworking freshman Senator."

I believe she was using those years to tone down her abrasive image and show that she could reach across to the other side, i.e., she tried to live down her polarizing image. Obviously, it hasn't worked. Thank goodness for Obama, otherwise, she would be a shoo-in for the nomination.

|1.7.08 @ 4:04PM|#

Paul,

Are you a member of a SWAT team? You seem a bit lost...

Episiarch|1.7.08 @ 4:06PM|#

The things I think Dodd brings to the table over Richardson are 1) Being Pasty-White. 2) Supporting the Constitution and a check on the Executive (which I'd like to believe will resonate with "Independents" and maybe left leaning libertarians--both of them:))

Hmm. So supporting campaign finance reform, supporting the death penalty, opposing gay marriage, supporting gun control, promoting universal child health care and education, and voting for the PATRIOT Act are "supporting the Constitution" and "checking the executive". (link)

I don't get the Dodd love. He's just another genetic politician who got his position through nepotism; he is only concerned about checking executive power when it suits him (executive is Republican or people aren't screaming for blood); he obviously doesn't care about the first two Amendments, and so on.

I guess he's a pretty good salesman, though.

Bingo|1.7.08 @ 4:07PM|#

Experience means nothing if not tempered with wisdom and humility.

Care to cite a source or are you just writing warm and fuzzy bullshit without any real meaning behind it? Much like someone's presidential campaign.

|1.7.08 @ 4:10PM|#

"America needs a leader with experience and Hillary is the one."

What experience? 1st Lady? Failed national health care? Senator for 7 years where she wasn't responsible for passing a single important piece of legislation?

|1.7.08 @ 4:12PM|#

Am I the only one that watched the debate Saturday night and saw John Edwards become Obama's VP in front of our very eyes? Sure, he used the "it's personal to me" line several times but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be Obama's VP. It just shows he wants it. But, he would want VP just as much should he not win the nomination, which I still think is not a foregone conclusion. I think any of the top 3 could still win.

Billy|1.7.08 @ 4:14PM|#

"He thinks the world was created 6000 years ago, which is enough for me."

No, he said he didn't find compelling evidence to support macro-evolution.

|1.7.08 @ 4:16PM|#

Care to cite a source or are you just writing warm and fuzzy bullshit without any real meaning behind it? Much like someone's presidential campaign.

Bingo,

You didn't read my post did you...who did I mention in it?

The Gipper|1.7.08 @ 4:18PM|#

"Experience means nothing if not tempered with wisdom and humility.

Care to cite a source or are you just writing warm and fuzzy bullshit without any real meaning behind it? Much like someone's presidential campaign."

Decades of experience, yet pig-headed stubborn -- Rumsfeld to a tee.

|1.7.08 @ 4:19PM|#

Conventional wisdom says Obama should pick a candidate that balances out his weaknesses, someone older, more foreign policy experience, maybe bring some votes from a key state. I think he'll go in a different direction.

"the best VP would be Brad Henry of Oklahoma"

What's his political office? I havn't heard of him, but then again, I havn't lived in Oklahoma since 1983.

Bingo|1.7.08 @ 4:20PM|#

You stated "Experience means nothing if not tempered with wisdom and humility."

Seriously, what does this mean? Please explain, because it reads like something you find in a pretty little book with a hand-made motif that you buy for $2.99 at the Barnes and Noble checkout line.

Kolohe|1.7.08 @ 4:20PM|#

Nick, I thought the same thing.

Although, isn't running for vice-president every four years one the running jokes for Opus the Penguin?

|1.7.08 @ 4:21PM|#

Conventional wisdom says Obama should pick a candidate that balances out his weaknesses, someone older, more foreign policy experience, maybe bring some votes from a key state.

Bob Graham? He even voted against the Iraq War.

|1.7.08 @ 4:23PM|#

Nick,

I saw Edwards helping Obama shove Hillary out the door, too, but that's probably just because he has a better chance of winning a one-on-one with Obama than a three-way with Hilllary.

Heh, "three-way with Hillary."

|1.7.08 @ 4:24PM|#

"No, he said he didn't find compelling evidence to support macro-evolution."

I guess as long as he doesn't read much paleontology, he can keep himself ignorant. There is plenty of fossil evidence for macro-evolution.

|1.7.08 @ 4:26PM|#

I haven't seen any reason to distinguish Paul's denial of evolution from Huckabee's. I guess Ron Paul is stupid, too.

Mr. X|1.7.08 @ 4:31PM|#

Heh, "three-way with Hillary."

Nobody wins in that. We lose even by having to mentally picture such a thing.

*shudder*

The Gipper|1.7.08 @ 4:34PM|#

"Seriously, what does this mean? Please explain, because it reads like something you find in a pretty little book with a hand-made motif that you buy for $2.99 at the Barnes and Noble checkout line."

I replied:
Decades of experience, yet pig-headed stubborn -- Rumsfeld to a tee.

Let me try to help you again:

Don Rumsfeld had experience, but it was worthless because he lacked wisdom and humility.

You gonna need it a third time? Do you need other examples? Or are you just being a contrarian?

Tammy|1.7.08 @ 4:34PM|#

"I guess as long as he doesn't read much paleontology, he can keep himself ignorant. There is plenty of fossil evidence for macro-evolution."

Show us...

Bingo|1.7.08 @ 4:35PM|#

zeener1: sorry for jumping on ya. I'm a little upset because I just realized this election isn't going to be about issues but about who makes people feel good. Someone called it the "Oprahfication" of US politics a while back.

|1.7.08 @ 4:36PM|#

"I haven't seen any reason to distinguish Paul's denial of evolution from Huckabee's. I guess Ron Paul is stupid, too."

Stupid about that, smart about other things.

Gilbert Martin|1.7.08 @ 4:38PM|#

"America needs a leader with experience and Hillary is the one."

"What experience? 1st Lady? Failed national health care? Senator for 7 years where she wasn't responsible for passing a single important piece of legislation?"

LOL

Oh, Hillary has experience all right.

Experience at being a rainmaker at Rose Law Firm, trading on her husband's political position to get business for the firm (she's the only "brilliant" lawyer on earth who'se never actually tried a case in court).

Experience in accecting political payoffs laundered as cattle futures trading profits and claiming she made the money by reading the Wall Street Journal.

Experience in falsly accusing the White House Travel office personnel of embezzlement as a pretense for firing them and giving the jobs to Clinton cronies - and then lying under oath about her involvement in it.

Experience in managing her husband's mulitple bimbo eruptions by attempting to destroy the stories of all the women invloved.

Experience at engineering the removal of files and documents from Vince Foster's office after his death.

And many more "interesting" experiences, although, not ones that count as qualifications for being president.

|1.7.08 @ 4:45PM|#

"I guess as long as he doesn't read much paleontology, he can keep himself ignorant. There is plenty of fossil evidence for macro-evolution."

"Show us..."

Is it a coincidence that the deeper the formation, our ancestors look more apelike?

Horses, rhinos, and tapirs can be traced back to a common ancestor in the fossil record.

Whales can be traced back to an ancestor that walked on land.

There are transitional ancestors between birds and dinosaurs.

There are transitional ancestors between fish and amphibians.

There are mammal like reptiles from the Permian.

This is only a small sampling of the evidence.

|1.7.08 @ 4:47PM|#

Rattlesnake Jake,

Huckabee isn't "stupid" about evolution. He's wrong. Ditto with Paul.

They are both extremely intelligent men. The problem is with their belief systems, not their intelligence. I think this is an important distinction to keep in mind.

|1.7.08 @ 4:48PM|#

Bingo - no problem. I guess my post did sound kinda smarmy, but I didn't mean it that way. I gave the example of Lincoln for a reason. Gipper gave the example from the other side.

Tammy|1.7.08 @ 4:48PM|#

"This is only a small sampling of the evidence."

No, these are simply words -- your words.

You haven't shown us anything.

|1.7.08 @ 4:50PM|#

"Every little thing she does is magic, every little thing just turns me on."

Back in 1992, when I was entering puberty, I thought Hillary Clinton was hot. Then again, I also thought "oral sex" referred to French kissing, so maybe I wasn't the best authority.

|1.7.08 @ 4:51PM|#

"They are both extremely intelligent men. The problem is with their belief systems, not their intelligence. I think this is an important distinction to keep in mind."

You're right, joe. They're just not very knowlegable about certain issues and perhaps their religious bias keeps them from gaining that knowledge.

|1.7.08 @ 4:52PM|#

"I also thought "oral sex" referred to French kissing"

It does, you french kiss the vagina. It's fun!

|1.7.08 @ 4:53PM|#

"No, these are simply words -- your words"

Words backed up by concrete evidence which you choose to keep yourself ignorant of, Tammy.

Tammy|1.7.08 @ 4:55PM|#

"Words backed up by concrete evidence which you choose to keep yourself ignorant of, Tammy."

So the links to this incontrovertible evidence are... where?

|1.7.08 @ 4:58PM|#

Hillary as veep?

I don't see her accepting that. It would only help her get the big prize if the ticket won...and in that case, she wouldn't be able to run for prez till 2016. Eight years is a long time to wait.

It's more likely that if she loses the nomination, she'll do everything she can to undermine the Democratic nominee behind the scenes so she can get another crack at it in 2012. If

I wonder if Senator Obama has the religios bias that Joe and Rattlesnake Jake are referring to? He afer all believes in the Genesis creation story. Is he ignorant or just misinformed?

|1.7.08 @ 4:59PM|#

What's his political office? I havn't heard of him, but then again, I havn't lived in Oklahoma since 1983.

Hes the current two-term governor. Hes liberal enough for Democrats, but he also cut taxes (and never raised them) and is pro-gun.

I hate him because hes a huge hawk on the drug war--hes the one who got the bright idea to put sudafed behind the counter--but it would really help Obama. That would help with Obama's coke-using past.

Whether it's Hillary or Obama, I think Wesley Clark will be the veep choice. Shores up the moderate, pro-military-but-anti-war democrats and independents.

Oops, I meant "Freedom kissing". ;-)

|1.7.08 @ 5:02PM|#

This just in:

Hillary cries real tears at speech today outlining why she wants to be el presidente.

Tatters|1.7.08 @ 5:04PM|#

"Oops, I meant "Freedom kissing". ;-)"

It does produce an exhilarating sense of freedom. That's for certain!

|1.7.08 @ 5:13PM|#

Anyone think that by the GOP convention there will be no clear front-runner? Maybe three or four guys all with 25-30% of the delegates?
This could be one of those "smoke filled room"
deals where the nominee who emerges wasn't on anyone's primary ballot. Could it be Colin Powell?

|1.7.08 @ 5:14PM|#

OK, enough with the cunnilingus talk. I'm trying to eat tacos.

Tatters|1.7.08 @ 5:19PM|#

"I'm trying to eat tacos."

Who isn't, my friend, who isn't?

x,y|1.7.08 @ 5:31PM|#

1. He believes in omnipotent and omniscient flying monsters.

2. He believes music and the arts are "weapons of mass instruction."

3. He believes not only that the government should have a role in personal, marital decisions, but also that we should pass a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

Feel free to pile on.

Tammy|1.7.08 @ 5:32PM|#

"Feel free to pile on."

Pass

|1.7.08 @ 6:05PM|#

zeeener1 writes, I wonder if Senator Obama has the religios bias that Joe and Rattlesnake Jake are referring to? He afer all believes in the Genesis creation story. He does? Evidence, please?

Is he ignorant or just misinformed? Neither. You are talking out of your ass.

|1.7.08 @ 6:07PM|#

x,y,

None of those things speak to a person's intelligence. At all.

You are just throwing the word "stupid" at people who don't share your beliefs.

Which is pretty stupid.

BakedPenguin|1.7.08 @ 6:14PM|#

His campaign has all the momentum of a runaway meteorite crashing into a small New England town!

|1.7.08 @ 6:16PM|#

joe,

"Weapons of mass instruction" is pretty stupid.

BakedPenguin|1.7.08 @ 6:16PM|#

Aaah, crap. Once again, but making sense this time.

|1.7.08 @ 6:26PM|#

crimethink,

It's a dumb phrase, but it doesn't suggest a lack of intelligence, just a cloying aesthetic sensibility.

|1.7.08 @ 6:28PM|#

Joe,
A little more repectful discourse please. If you as nicely this time I'll show you the proof. I'll provide the link to it anyway..

|1.7.08 @ 6:30PM|#

Show the link, don't show the link, I don't really care.

|1.7.08 @ 6:34PM|#

Well maybe someone cares....here it is.
http://learfield.typepad.com/radioiowa/2007/10/on-a-rainy-sund.html

|1.7.08 @ 6:41PM|#

Nope. Nothing in there about "believing in the Genesis creation story."

|1.7.08 @ 6:44PM|#

I don't share your cynicism Joe. Why would Senator Obama mention it if he didn't believe it?

"The Bible tells us that when God created the Earth....(God issued a call to stewardship)...but in recent years science has made it undeniably clear our generation is not living up to our obligation....The polar ice caps are now melting faster than anyone could have predicted....250 million people (could be forced from their homes due to famine)....We are not living up to the resonsibility God entrusted to us if we allow 250 million of God's children go hungry....We're not acting as good stewards of God's earth" (when profit motive prevails)...(Crowd applauds)

|1.7.08 @ 6:48PM|#

Because he was speaking to an audience in a church and was making a point by referencing the Bible.

I could use exactly the same words, and I accept the reality that evolution has been proven, and that the story in Genesis is not meant to be taken literally.

|1.7.08 @ 6:50PM|#

"The Bible tells us that God sent a great whale to swallow Jonah because he disobeyed God's command to spread his word.

Do we live up to God's command to Jonah?"

If you think I just expressed an opinion about the literal truthfulness of the Jonah story, the way Huckabee expressed an opinion about the literal truthfulness of Genesis, you don't understand how Bibilical references work.

|1.7.08 @ 7:06PM|#

I just don't buy it the Obama lied about his belief system just to make points with a church audience. I think he's a pretty decent fellow and wouldn't stoop to pandering like that.

|1.7.08 @ 7:10PM|#

What lie about his belief system? Could you tell us what it was? Could you tell us what Obama's belief system is, and what he lied about?

|1.7.08 @ 7:15PM|#

"Because he was speaking to an audience in a church and was making a point by referencing the Bible."

You're the one who implied that he lied. Why don't you explain it?

|1.7.08 @ 8:06PM|#

Nope, I neither implied nor stated any such thing.

But keep squirming. It's fun to watch.

Neener neener neener, you can't back up your smear.

|1.7.08 @ 8:08PM|#

Oh, and again:

What lie about his belief system? Could you tell us what it was? Could you tell us what Obama's belief system is, and what he lied about?

If you could answer that question, I trust you would have.

|1.7.08 @ 9:22PM|#

Unless he gets swallowed by a "great fish" some time soon, Bob Graham might be a good choice for Obama. Florida is critical for the Democrats. With Graham on the ticket, the GOP would be in deep trouble.

|1.7.08 @ 10:13PM|#

...unless he finished up a campaign event, walked to the car, and started looking for the hand crank.

x,y|1.8.08 @ 12:15AM|#

What you believe is certainly colored by your intelligence. I see no reason to disassociate the two.

Reason Magazine

Get Reason E-mail Updates!

Site comments/questions:

Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:

Editorial & Production Offices:

advertisements