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Republican Debate VIII: The Shindy in St. Petersburg
The Grand Old Party is scrapping again tonight in Florida at 8pm eastern time on CNN: The questions have been submitted via YouTube and host Anderson Cooper will do some amending and following-up.
Does it seem like ages since the last GOP debate? That's because it was held back on October 21. Back then Ron Paul had only raised $2.4 million for the quarter and Mitt Romney held the one-day fundraising record. Mike Huckabee was polling in the low teens an Iowa for a respectable third or fourth place showing. Children and small animals cowered in fear of the Fred Thompson juggernaut. So, things are different.
I have an unbreakable committment and might turn on the debate a
bit late, so consider this an open thread for anyone watching
it.
8:11: I show up 11 minutes late, and... nothing happens. At the Ron Paul debate-watching party I'm at in DC, the doctor's arrival onscreen is greeted by "There he is!" (Future comments from the party will be in parentheses.)
8:12: Rudy... claims New York wasn't a sanctuary city?
8:13: Ever-credible Mitt, who presided over three sanctuary cities in Massachusetts, righteously
8:14: Rudy's new attack line: Romney owned "Sanctuary mansion!"
8:15: Romney's "outrage" software is engaged! ("How did it get to be just them?" "Don't worry, if a debate breaks out they'll stop it.") Romney asks, rhetorically, whether he should hound people who show up for work with funny accents. The irony tickles.
8:16: Duncan Hunter asks if he can "jump in here." No. No, you can't. But the crowd is heckling Giuliani for trying and trying to get the last answer.
8:17: Carlos the Jackal (via video) asks if the Republicans will veto amnesty. Ooh, the hard questions.
8:19: Thompson attacks... sort of. One fun thing we've learned in Campaign '08 is that Thompson is unlistenably dull without a script.
8:20: McCain wades in. ("The fire's gone out of him." "Why is he even in this?")
8:21: McCain runs down the government failures that have made him so righteously angry. ("Campaign finance reform!" "All the failures I helped enable!")
8:22: Tancredo is delighted that we're having a Scary Meskins round. ("His nose should be red.") "Everyone's trying to out-Tancredo Tancredo!" ("That's a verb?")
8:24: "I reject the idea that there are jobs Americans won't take!" ("Would you hire Tancredo to clean your gutters?)
8:25: Ah, the Ron Paul party gives Hunter the esteem he deserves. ("Congressman, my question is: Where's your neck?"
8:26: ("Next question... for Ron Paul!") The next question actually goes to Huckabee. It's a good one about whether, as a guy who gave scholarships to illegal immigrants, he'd do the same for the kids of illegal alien military vets. (Everyone heckles Huckabee for addressing the giant YouTube screen as if it's alive.)
8:28: Huckabee explains that he gave scholarships to kids who were smart, didn't do drugs, earned it, dancing elegantly past the issue that they weren't citizens. ("The best students in Arkansas?")
8:30: Romney punches back and Huckabee pours on the saccarine. "If I didn't get an education, I might be picking lettuce!" ("Who'd rather have Mike Huckabee picking lettuce?" Every hand goes up.)
8:32: The room gets ice cold when Paul gets a question on whether he believes in a North American Union. He handles it as well as he possibly could, framing it as "a conspiracy of ideas." He's been prepped on this: He hasn't always been so adroit. ("He can't cut off those guys who believe in it.")
8:34: McCain complains about power changing the GOP. ("I just feel sympathy for him at this point.")
8:36: Giuliani will "strengthen the dollar" by not filling every open federal job. ("Is he serious?") "Twenty-two percent are found not able to evaluated."
8:37: Emily Ekins is apparently an Institute for Human Studies seminar alum: She asks what three programs Thompson and Paul would scrap. "It's a target rich environment." (There's some squabbling about whether he's referencing Top Gun.) He swerves into his well-rehearsed Social Security answer. ("So... we're abandoning the target metaphor.")
8:40: Paul shoots, Paul scores. "That comment about government changing 'us'--I don't think government changed me!" He hits the three I've heard him talk about: Education, Energy, DHS.
8:42: McCain takes the chance to demogogue at Paul on the war, a warm wave of applause gushing over him like a deleted scene from Behind the Green Door. "I spent Christmas with the troops!" ("OK, Ron needs to knock this out of the park.")
8:44: Grover Norquist gets into it! He asks them to sign "the pledge" never to raise taxes. Everyone says yes. Paul: "I have never voted for a tax increase and never will!" Hunter: "I've voted for more tax cuts than anyone on this stage." ("That's because you've been there for like 50 years!")
8:47: Terrible, terrible answers on farm subsidies. Romney and Rudy ("We have to support Archer Daniels Midland EVERY DAY!")
8:48: Rudy gets asked about the Ben Smith story on his under-the-table, end of mayoralty expense reports. "There were... threats against me." ("9/11! 9/11!" "What, did someone threaten his mistress?")
8:50: Duncan Hunter wants us to "buy American" so when "our veterans come back" they'll have good jobs. You lost your legs in Mosul: You've earned the right to assemble LED screens for PS2s.
8:52: I love that Thompson's YouTube ad was just cribbed from other, better videos using Romney's and Huckabee's own words to garrotte them. Cooper's pissed: "What's up with that?" Thompson: "I want to give my buddies here a little extra air time!" A funny joke that he sort of steps on by running out of words and saying "Uhhhhh."
8:53: Some comedy from Romney about how he was wrong about infanticide before but now MA Citizens for Life like him. ("I only gave them $15,000 and put my wife on their board, but...")
8:56: Great ad from the coal industry. ("Who wants coal for Christmas now?" Every hand goes up.)
9:00: Hunter gets a softball about the second amendment from a Californian with a handgun and he... makes fun of him for his handling. Let's cool it with the comments about how he's a brilliant man who deserves to hit the first term.
9:03: A Fred Thompson answer lulls my room into a nice, mellow place. He's poking the right holes in Giuliani's gun answer, though.
9:04: Did... they... skip over Paul to get an answer from Hunter? So he could wink and ramble about the gun he's already talked about? Also, breaking news: John McCain served in Vietnam.
9:06: A question about how they'd stop the crime epidemic and rescue black people goes to Romney, who says government needs to strengthen familes. ("Can we import parents from Mexico?" "Watch out, Romney wants to rear your child!")
9:07: Giuliani can cut crime because he cut it Harlem. ("We got black people out of Harlem! That reduced crime.")
9:09: A good question on what women who abort their fetuses should be charged with goal to Paul... which makes sense since he's a doctor who's seen an abortion performed, but doesn't make sense in that he's obviously going to leave it to the states.
9:12: Hunh. Giuliani grabs a lifeline on abortion by nabbing Ron Paul's answer.
9:15: The death penalty: "What would Jesus do?" Huckabee soars with a lot of friffery about how hard it was to make the decision. ("Shorter Huckabee: I'll kill people but I'll cry about it.")
9:17: Rudy Giuliani: Not William Jennings Bryan. Some of the Bible is figurative, some literal. ("It's a good answer." "It's the only answer.")
9:18: Oh, God, watching Romney pander on this is like watching the Fantasia Hippos dance ballet. "Uh... yes, I believe it's the word of God." But it's not what Anderson Cooper thinks is the word of God. (Because Cooper believes in the whole thing?)
9:19: God likes Mike Huckabee.
9:20: Commercial time. ("My favorite moment was Tancredo restraining himself and not telling the woman to deport her Chinese daughter.")
9:23: Giuliani's YouTube ad is nice and crazy. He saved New York from King Kong! He stopped the snow from falling!
9:26: McCain: "I'm the only one on this stage who said the Rumsfeld strategy was doomed to fail." Didn't he just try to kneecap Ron Paul?
9:27: "When you were suffering from starvation and disease we brought you food and medicine." (My room groans.)
9:29: Romney is shameless on torture. ("Waterboard him and ask the question again!") McCain smacks him across the podium.
9:30: This is the stuff that exposes Romney's inner Dukakis. "I'm not going to say what methods I'll use." Oh, and he'll ask for McCain's counsel.
9:31: "Life is not 24 and Jack Bauer."
9:33: How long will we stay in Iraq? Thompson is... noncomittal.
9:35: "We never lost a battle in Vietnam!" (There's a fight about this in the room.)
9:37: It's moments like this when I'm sorry I'm collapsing from the onset of... something. (Flu? We'll see.) Paul and McCain lock horns over Vietnam and I have some trouble following it. I'm going to sign off for a bit... have at it.
9:59: A great moment from the Ron Paul party. A black YouTuber asks of black support for Republicans: "Why don't we vote for you." ("Well, have you read the Bell Curve?") This was asked in jest, of course.
10:07: I like how they coupled a questioner who says "Ron Paul, you won't win the nomination" with one who says "Fred Thompson, your campaign is going down in flames so hot I could cook a turkey with them." Wait...
|11.28.07 @ 6:49PM|#
That is the coolest mash-up I've ever seen.
Any background info on it? (Besides what's on Youtube?)
|11.28.07 @ 7:47PM|#
Is there a live feed for the debate?
CNN.com will have one, although it never works for me. There's also
http://www.justin.tv/ronpaul2008.
|11.28.07 @ 8:03PM|#
Yeah, I just tried to install the "Turner Plugin" that's
required to watch video on CNN.com, and the installer succeeded in
locking up my computer to the extent that I had to unplug it from
the wall.
I'm just thankful I wasn't working on a laptop...
John|11.28.07 @ 8:09PM|#
Was that Chuck Norris in the audience? Huckabee must have given him a ticket.
Guy Montag|11.28.07 @ 8:10PM|#
So, the GOP is not afraid of CNN but the Weigeloids are still 'afeard' of FNN? ROFLMAO!
|11.28.07 @ 8:19PM|#
The justin.tv link mainly shows the people sitting there watching the debate and only shows the bottom half of the screen. WHat is this, The Rocky Horror Picture Show?
|11.28.07 @ 8:22PM|#
This is the most convoluted discussion of illegal immigration
ever. All of them, except for Thomspon, had taken the practical
solution to illegal immigration before and now they're jumping on
each other like pit bulls attacking each other for their all
reasonable policies.
Blech.
|11.28.07 @ 8:23PM|#
Looks like they're concentrating on the top tier: Giuliani, Romney, McCain, and .... Tancredo?!
|11.28.07 @ 8:26PM|#
Gah, the sound's going in and out now. It sounds like Duncan Hunter's speaking while being waterboarded.
|11.28.07 @ 8:30PM|#
Romney: "That's not your money. That's the txpayers'
money!"
What a hypocritical prick.
|11.28.07 @ 8:32PM|#
Ron Paul's first question (paraphrase): Are you really as much of a nutjob as everyone thinks?
John|11.28.07 @ 8:33PM|#
Ron isn't helping himself my making reference to the Trilateral Commission. But his overall answer was pretty sain.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 8:40PM|#
Did they just cut RP by a couple of seconds? We should demand those 2 seconds back!
John|11.28.07 @ 8:41PM|#
If the FairTax is supposedly revenue nuetral, then how would enacting it solve our spending problem?
TLB|11.28.07 @ 8:44PM|#
What's Weigel smoking? house.gov/paul/tst/tst2006/tst103006.htm makes it clear that RP is the one who believes in the NorthAmericanUnion, it's deniers like Weigel who he's trying to mollify.
|11.28.07 @ 8:44PM|#
They gave Romney like 10 minutes to respond to Rudy's attack, but 30 seconds to Paul to respond to McCain slandering his patriotism?
|11.28.07 @ 8:47PM|#
TLB,
Even you have to admit that most people (deluded fools though they
may be) think anyone who believes in the NAU is batshit insane.
With that in mind, it behooves Dr Paul to avoid publicizing his
stance on that.
|11.28.07 @ 8:50PM|#
Meanwhile, wheat and potato farmers (and all others who are not subsidized) are spitting at their televisions right now.
|11.28.07 @ 8:50PM|#
AND OUR CHILDREN ARE GOING TO DIE FROM POISONOUS TOYS IF WE TRADE WITH CHINA!!!
|11.28.07 @ 8:50PM|#
WHat will you do to protect my kids from Chinese toys? Bloody toys found all over house.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 8:53PM|#
I just realized how unhip, unyoung, unthinking, unenlightened a lot of the GOPers in that hall (and beyond) are!
|11.28.07 @ 8:53PM|#
Thompson's campaign video doesn't even mention him, but consists entirely of damning clips of Romney and Huck.
PC|11.28.07 @ 8:54PM|#
He called out globalism. Yes most of the country doesn't read the books that people who make policy read, but some of those most read the ones they sell. That blond on Morning Joe, her dad did a book called "Second Chance". You know who funded the Afghani Freedom fighters under Carter? He says there is only Neoconservatism and Globalism. I trust him as a source, he is much more qualified than I.
|11.28.07 @ 8:58PM|#
I find that the following mp3 file helps during some of the more
inane answers.
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/midis/bigtop.mid
|11.28.07 @ 8:59PM|#
I only caught bits and pieces of what McCain said about Paul, because the feed I'm watching has a live studio audience that started shouting when he was talking.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 9:07PM|#
yeaaahhh... same old same old.... I am pretty sure of the 5000 videos they got, 4,900 are made by RP supporters, but, oh well. This is depressing. What a waste of time (I thing I said that last debate, too --this is getting repetitious.)
|11.28.07 @ 9:08PM|#
Posting pictures of sex offenders online will really help black-on-black crime...way to think outside the box, Mitt.
|11.28.07 @ 9:09PM|#
we need more moms dad. I propose more stem cell research to solve this problem. It will be paid for by a... sex tax
|11.28.07 @ 9:12PM|#
Clothes,
The LAST thing we want is for RP to get a Drug War question at a
Republican debate. Trust me on this.
John|11.28.07 @ 9:12PM|#
If Thompson only supports making post-viability abortions illegal, he's effectively pro-choice.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 9:12PM|#
Catch the thief... Rudy just stole RP's answer! And he gets 90 seconds for it.
|11.28.07 @ 9:13PM|#
If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, RP should be very flattered by these abortion answers.
|11.28.07 @ 9:15PM|#
if we instill a sex tax, I will need to find as many loopholes as possible while I am single. Once I am married, just like every other tax for couples, i will get screwed over.
|11.28.07 @ 9:15PM|#
So you're telling me that NO ONE posted any questions about Iraq and the War on Terror?
|11.28.07 @ 9:15PM|#
I bet John McCain has killed more people than Huckabee.
Giuliani *would* kill more people.
Romney would triple the number of people killed.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 9:16PM|#
Did I hear Fred Thompson call Mitt Romney "Mitch"? Anyone else catch that?
|11.28.07 @ 9:17PM|#
I think it's very important that our next President believe
every literal word in the Bible.
NOT!
|11.28.07 @ 9:18PM|#
Romney believes in the bible....yet he practices a religion that defies the last chapter of it
John|11.28.07 @ 9:24PM|#
Part of makes Huckabee so scary is his ability to answer questions like that.
|11.28.07 @ 9:25PM|#
Fred Thomspon and Mitt Romney are both PACIFIST PUSSIES when it comes to those MOTHERFUCKING ISLAMOFASCISTS who want TO DESTROY THE GREATNESS OF THE MOTHERFUCKING UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!
Dedalus|11.28.07 @ 9:25PM|#
Did someone forget to invite Ron Paul? Or did they just forget to ask him any questions?
emerson|11.28.07 @ 9:26PM|#
I'm glad Giuliani always specifies what year "September 11th" occurred in. He was mayor of New York then, you know.
|11.28.07 @ 9:26PM|#
RUDY IS SO CORRECT!
THE ISLAMO-DEMOCRATS ARE TO AFRAID TO OFFEND THE ISLAMOFASCISTS!
ALSO, I LIKE TO LICK RUDY'S BALLS!
|11.28.07 @ 9:27PM|#
McCain: I'm the only one on the stage who said the strategy in
Iraq was failing.
WWWWWWWWTTTTTTTTTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!
|11.28.07 @ 9:29PM|#
Mitt: If Presidential candidates say what they think is torture, the terrorists will win.
|11.28.07 @ 9:32PM|#
OK, I already knew I could never vote for Giuliani. I now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I can never vote for Romney, based on his torture answer. McCain looks like the only front-runner I could hold my nose and vote for against Hillary.
|11.28.07 @ 9:34PM|#
why the fuck is Paul not being allowed to answer these questions. Oh. nevermind.
America|11.28.07 @ 9:35PM|#
I hope every executive at CNN gets a painful cancer and dies a slow and horrible death while their families watch and can do nothing.
|11.28.07 @ 9:36PM|#
I hope every executive at CNN gets a painful cancer and dies
a slow and horrible death while their families watch and can do
nothing.
You mean like we're watching Ron Paul not get any attention and can
do nothing? :)
|11.28.07 @ 9:40PM|#
To say that the American Public is responsible for losing Vietnam is really absurd. I've never heard that before and I would ask the Senator to retract that statement.
|11.28.07 @ 9:41PM|#
The proper question is about expanding executive branch powers, not just the veep.
|11.28.07 @ 9:43PM|#
McCain starts talking about 9/11 and Rudy wants to chime in...surprise surprise
|11.28.07 @ 9:44PM|#
We've only had 4 videos so far, and they've got 10 minutes left. They'd better not screw RP out of his.
John|11.28.07 @ 9:44PM|#
Hunter's ad had the classic UHF announcer and production values worthy of a Libertarian Senate candidate.
|11.28.07 @ 9:49PM|#
Duncan Hunter: How dare you make bigoted soldiers fight with
gays?
Think of the bigots!
John|11.28.07 @ 9:50PM|#
We're in the middle of a war....therefore we need more restrictions in serving in the military!
|11.28.07 @ 9:50PM|#
Fuck you Mitt Romney for your cravenly Republican position on gays in the military.
|11.28.07 @ 9:53PM|#
They booed him?!
I can't tell on my feed because there's an audience making noise in
front of the TV. That's absolutely awful.
Fluffy|11.28.07 @ 9:55PM|#
You know, even if they handed out time to the candidates based
on their poll standing, Paul would STILL have gotten more time than
Cooper gave him. Giuliani would STILL have gotten less time.
Giuliani does not deserve 50+% of the time of the entire debate.
Period.
|11.28.07 @ 9:59PM|#
Tancredo: If we build a rocket ship to Mars, it will only provide more opportunity for aliens to come into our country!
|11.28.07 @ 10:02PM|#
Mitt: There's not two Americas, there's one America -- AND IT DOES WHAT I FUCKING TELL IT TO!!!!!
|11.28.07 @ 10:05PM|#
And fittingly they ignore Dr Paul after his video. Everyone who had a video before got to give a 30 second blurb immediately afterwards!
|11.28.07 @ 10:06PM|#
Have they given Duncan Hunter more airtime than Paul? Am I just mispercieving this?
|11.28.07 @ 10:07PM|#
and why the fuck do they always give McCain time after Paul? And how is McCain talking about pork when the question is about infrastructure?
|11.28.07 @ 10:07PM|#
hehehehe... the audio on my feed is slipping so everyone looks like they're in a kung fu movie
Dedalus|11.28.07 @ 10:09PM|#
Bullshit question for Ron Paul.
"You will never win..."
Incredible.
CNN Soviet Debate
|11.28.07 @ 10:10PM|#
I suspect Rudy McRompson reference each other in their responses
so as to guarantee extra time to "rebut".
Seriously, which question is less appropriate, the Bible question
or the Yankees question?
|11.28.07 @ 10:11PM|#
THey spent more time talking about baseball than they did talking about the Iraq war...
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:11PM|#
Great Paul answer. I support this man even if he's running as president the Comoros Islands.
Franklin Harris|11.28.07 @ 10:12PM|#
Ron Paul is asked will he run as an independent. Surprisingly, Paul actually gets to answer a question.
|11.28.07 @ 10:12PM|#
I suspect Rudy McRompson reference each other in their
responses so as to guarantee extra time to "rebut".
I was thinking the same thing.
Anyone else think John McCain will be rewarded for throwing
everything at Ron Paul at the beginning of the debate? Maybe
Chairmanship of the RNC?
|11.28.07 @ 10:13PM|#
5000 videos and they end on yankees-red sox.
Does CNN really think we're that stupid?
Dedalus|11.28.07 @ 10:13PM|#
"One thing we are not going to do tonight is focus on the horse
race."
In other words, "no poll on who won the debate. BITCHES!"
|11.28.07 @ 10:13PM|#
Since Rudy and Mitt didn't get enough time during the debate, apparently the post-debate show will be "The Best of Rudy and Mitt"
Franklin Harris|11.28.07 @ 10:13PM|#
So, can we agree that the CNN/YouTube debates are a cheap stunt and are no better than the lame debates we get all the rest of the time?
Franklin Harris|11.28.07 @ 10:14PM|#
Does CNN really think we're that stupid?
Well, I think CNN is that stupid.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:16PM|#
So, can we agree that the CNN/YouTube debates are a cheap
stunt and are no better than the lame debates we get all the rest
of the time?
I agree.
They should let people submit the ads, vote for the ads, and take
the top questions... oh, wait, these would all be RP videos...
never mind, they do not need that.
|11.28.07 @ 10:16PM|#
The YouTube Democratic debate was actually pretty good. This one
was a farce, though.
I'm guessing they were so desperate for non-Ron Paul supporter
videos that they just took anything else they came across. I did
like Admiral Ackbar's gays in the military question, though.
Franklin Harris|11.28.07 @ 10:16PM|#
In other words, "no poll on who won the debate. BITCHES!"
Obviously, Ron Paul won because he had to answer the fewest stupid
CNN-picked YouTube questions.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:18PM|#
Now they have these hollow talking heads explain to us how these guys did. The purpose of the debate was to exercise our ears... just our ears.
NP|11.28.07 @ 10:20PM|#
Damn, we gotta nominate Huckabee just for the laughs. He's by far the funniest candidate I've seen so far.
SIV|11.28.07 @ 10:20PM|#
9:59: A great moment from the Ron Paul party. A black
YouTuber asks of black support for Republicans: "Why don't we vote
for you." ("Well, have you read the Bell Curve?")
Dave,
Tell Flemur and Chalupa we said Hi.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:24PM|#
My respect went up for Fred Thompson. And strangely, I think
Tancredo did exceptionally well.
McCain gives good responses, but he looks so old on camera.
Giuliani stole the show with that last response on the Yankees.
Hilarious. Romney tried to eat into Giuliani's laugh lines, but it
fell flat.
Again, did anyone else catch Thompson calling Mitt Romney
"Mitch"?
|11.28.07 @ 10:25PM|#
Paul is with the American people regarding the war....stupid, hot, sexy, cunt-bitch
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:25PM|#
Oh, and Ron Paul?
Ditto response to McCain. On camera he comes across looking very
old.
kellie|11.28.07 @ 10:27PM|#
This was quite possibly the worst debate yet. Why the hell did Huckabee get so much fucking time? Might CNN be grooming him for the VP?
Dedalus|11.28.07 @ 10:27PM|#
This debate was all the fun of a May Day Parade circa 1975. A Republo-fascist circle jerk.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:27PM|#
Franklin, stop being such a sourpuss. The debate format was fun
and lively. And I think Anderson Cooper did a fine job.
The YouTube folks gave good questions, and they were very real.
Nothing too kooky. And they even seemed to lean Republican.
Shocking on CNN's part.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:28PM|#
Big winner of the night?
CNN.
I gotta admit it. They did an exceptionally good job with this
debate. Probably the best GOP debate yet.
|11.28.07 @ 10:29PM|#
The American Public hates America. You are either with us or against us. Who will be the first president to advocate nuking America?
|11.28.07 @ 10:32PM|#
I can't fathom how nobody in the audience ejaculated "Pussy!" during some of Mitt's answers. That fucker thinks he shouldn't be bothered to answer questions about specific torture techniques used by the US military? The potential commander in chief can't answer these questions? Anyway, during Mitt's despicable waffling, McCain looked powerfully angry... he should have put words to that anger... forget about civility when Mitt's being such a bastard.
kellie|11.28.07 @ 10:33PM|#
5000 videos and they end on yankees-red sox.
Does CNN really think we're that stupid?
Clearly this was the Republican equivalent to the diamonds and
pearls question. Apparently CNN has already bdecided which two
candidates will win the primaries.
Franklin Harris|11.28.07 @ 10:34PM|#
It's not that the questions were kooky (although a couple were), but that most of them were the same crap that gets asked in every debate. That's including the utterly pointless Yankees vs. Rex Sox question, which sounds just like the crap Chris Matthews would ask.
|11.28.07 @ 10:35PM|#
andyd,
He's borrowing a tactic from the Bush administration...when asked
about potentially illegal activities you [have been|are|will be]
committing, refuse to answer because of vague national security
concerns.
No doubt the 30% "Bush = Jesus" crowd will appreciate Mitt's
following in the Dear Leader's footsteps.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:36PM|#
Oh, Franklin, stop being such a sourpuss. The Yankees question
was great. I thought it was the highlight of the debate. And Romney
tried to cut into it, but failed.
Americans like Baseball Franklin. Lighten up.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:36PM|#
Clearly this was the Republican equivalent to the diamonds
and pearls question. Apparently CNN has already bdecided which two
candidates will win the primaries.
So why hold primaries then if this is all ceremonial... oh wait...
How did Kings in Europe get to be "chosen" first time in their
kingdoms?
|11.28.07 @ 10:37PM|#
I can't fathom how nobody in the audience ejaculated
"Pussy!"
I wouldn't suggest googling that phrase unless you have SafeSearch
on.
|11.28.07 @ 10:38PM|#
Mitt is the Muhammed Ali of all the Candidates--shuck and jive,
shuck and jive.
Hell, he's the Neo of candidates, dodging questions like
bullets.
How can anyone take this guy seriously? Jesus (Mormon)
Christ.
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 10:38PM|#
"So, the final question, for all the candidates: If you were a
tree, what kind of tree would you be?"
ROMNEY: "Spruce . . . no, pine. Maybe larch."
THOMPSON: "I'd have to consult my horticulturalist."
HUCKABEE: "Maple, of course."
GIULIANI: "When I was mayor on 9/11 . . . of, sorry, I mean I'd be
the tree that grows in Brooklyn."
DR. PAUL: "I'm a friggin' chainsaw, you pathetic hacks."
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:39PM|#
Eric Rudy's answer on "Islam" was excellent. But did not come across to me as that sincere.
|11.28.07 @ 10:40PM|#
No, Dr Paul would be the tree of liberty that must from time to time be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants...
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:41PM|#
Right this moment, the numbers on RP's website are going up rapidly. That would be the best response to this farce they call a debate.
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 10:44PM|#
TV COMMENTATOR #1: "Can you believe how much Ron Paul hates the
environment?"
TV COMMENTATOR #2: "After he cuts down all the trees, he'll shoot
Bambi and make rabbit stew out of Thumper."
TV COMMENTATOR #1: "Why is the mainstream media giving Paul a free
ride on this?"
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:45PM|#
Yeah Ali, what I thought was best about it, is that he answered
it quickly. He didn't have to think about it. As soon as the video
was over, he started addressing the issue that the young Mulim
woman asked.
I hated it when the candidates went over their allotted time.
McCain did that a couple times.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:47PM|#
DID THEY JUST SAY PAUL WAS LYING! Screw CNN. They're going from my cable first thing tomorrow. Why do I pay for that crap?
Fluffy|11.28.07 @ 10:48PM|#
Everyone speaking to Eric Dondero should always keep in mind
that:
1. He advocates genocide.
2. He thinks Saddam Hussein was behind the Oklahoma City
bombing.
Keep these things in mind when reading his inane opinions about the
debate.
|11.28.07 @ 10:50PM|#
Crimethink,
Yeah, vague national security concerns... too vague for me to
understand. Really, anybody know the national security
justification here?... aside from "answering that compromises my
chances of winning and I'm the best for national security". And is
McCain compromising national security?
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 10:50PM|#
MICHELLE MALKIN: "This just in . . . I've just been reliably informed that Ron Paul cooked and ate Bambi *and* all 101 Dalmatians in front of a cheering audience of 9/11 Truthers. Even if I didn't get every last detail of that story right, let me just say to my carping Internet critics: Give it up, your Bambi-hating candidate's goose is cooked."
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:51PM|#
Eric, you see it is a great answer, but does not count much. Bush said the same thing in 2000, and started stabbing in the back big time immediately thereafter. I am not sure if Rudy (or any of the others, including Paul simply because he did not get a chance to respond to any question of real substance) will be attracting many of the Muslim voters. I just checked with a friend out in MI, Muslims would love to vote Republican, but they're votong for who ever the Dems pick (they'll probably root for Obama, as sad as that may sound). 80% of Arabs and Muslims voted for Bush in 2000.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:52PM|#
Oh, come on Ali, that's a typical political trick. Blacks use that too. "Oh, we'd love to vote Republican, but..."
Vermont Gun Owner|11.28.07 @ 10:53PM|#
"Congressman Paul, it has been suggested that you will turn traitor to the Republican Party and run as an independent, handing the election to Hillary (because you love her so much). You have so far denied this 372 times. Do you still feel the same way?"
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:54PM|#
Eric, I am telling you what I have been told. It is fact. I am not interpreting or translating into fact. They simply won't vote Republican anytime in the near future. I am not talking about what I think, I am talking about what the average American Muslim thinks.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:54PM|#
I just heard two of the big Blog Talk Political announcers say
that the big loser of the debate was Ron Paul. They're laughing at
him.
Go to Blogtalkradio.com Ed Morrisey's Post-Debate show.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 10:57PM|#
Eric, you know that that was a cheap shot regarding Paul. You
know how most people feel about Paul right now.
Fluffy ;-|
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 10:57PM|#
MATT DRUDGE: "Exclusive! Ron Paul is accused of goosing Michelle Malkin. Will these sexual-harassment charges finally sink the Paul campaign?"
|11.28.07 @ 10:57PM|#
The new Iowa poll from Rasmussen:
good news: Ron Paul, while still at 5%, is now in 5th place over
John McCain at 4%
bad bad bad bad bad news: Fuckabee is winning with 28%
damn manipulatable hicks!
Franklin Harris|11.28.07 @ 10:57PM|#
I just heard two of the big Blog Talk Political announcers say that the big loser of the debate was Ron Paul.
Just like "everyone" said Paul lost his exchange with Rudy in the
first debate. *yawn*
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 10:58PM|#
Here's the early line from RedState.com:
Two Winners: Huckabee and McCain.
McCain won on scalps. He got Mitt Romney and he got Ron Paul.
McCain was the adult in the room all night. He was stable,
composed, and mature.
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 10:58PM|#
ERIC: "Just Google 'Ron Paul,' 'Bambi,' and 'sexual harassment.' You'll get a million hits. Where there's smoke, there's fire."
BakedPenguin|11.28.07 @ 10:58PM|#
I've just been reliably informed that Ron Paul cooked and ate Bambi *and* all 101 Dalmatians...
I thought that was Katherine Mangu-Ward. Of course, she may well be
a Paul supporter...
Fluffy|11.28.07 @ 11:01PM|#
http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2007-11-12-0007.html
That's a link to a local Philadelphia news repot affirming Paul's
figure of 5000.
First CNN only allows Paul to answer 3 questions during a 2 hour
debate, and then they lie about him during the post-debate
discussion.
This is because CNN is made up of scumsucking piece of shit
cunts.
PS: Dondero talks about "blog talk radio" like we should give a rat
fuck what it is. He's like the guy who uses some video service
other than YouTube and thinks "you should know" how much better it
is. Clown.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 11:01PM|#
Wow! They're now saying on Blog Talk that McCain won the debate
specifically because of his slam on Ron Paul.
It's starting to look like a downer of the night for the
Paul-bots.
Fluffy|11.28.07 @ 11:02PM|#
Right, RedState is so influential they have to mass ban people to avoid being buried on their own fucking site.
Fluffy|11.28.07 @ 11:03PM|#
Dondero, shouldn't you be talking to the guys at Blog Talk Radio about how Saddam Hussein and the Abominable Snowman were responsible for the assassination of ArchDuke Ferdinand?
Franklin Harris|11.28.07 @ 11:03PM|#
If Ron Paul actually did well in Iowa, I might have to check if
hell had frozen over. All Iowans care about is fat farm subsidies
to corn farmers, and their mix of economic populism/protectionism
and social conservatism plays right into Hickabee's hands. Put it
this way: If it were a Paul vs. Huckabee race, Huckabee would
recycle the "Cross of Gold" speech. From economic populism to
creationism, Huckabee is a modern William Jennings Bryan, minus
Bryan's one good point: his opposition to imperialism.
New Hampshire, however, is a different matter.
|11.28.07 @ 11:04PM|#
I came away from the debate more convinced that Rudy is the best
of the GOP. The Bible and Roe question made my mind up: this man
turned down the chance to pander like crazy and gave what seemed
like honest and intelligent answers, answers he had to know would
only hurt him. Sure, he's nuts on Iraq but that seems to be the
litmus test with 90% of GOP primary voters these days. On the
Muslim question he did quite well (compare to the pandering of "I
will not apologize for the US" in response to the same
question).
Paul showed the usual courage in being the lone voice for sanity in
Iraq. I thought his answer about the bridges was incoherent (we
need to stop building bridges in Iraq and build them in the US, and
get the government out of our lives-huh?, who do you think builds
those bridges congressman, K-mart?). CNN defintely treated him like
crap.
Romney as usual struck me as the biggest tool, hemming and hawing
and cowardly as they come, with his latest tracking poll in his
eyes for every answer. What a tool. I think he and Hillary are the
phoniest two in the race.
|11.28.07 @ 11:05PM|#
"Dondero, shouldn't you be talking to the guys at Blog Talk
Radio about how Saddam Hussein and the Abominable Snowman were
responsible for the assassination of ArchDuke Ferdinand?" Well of
course fluffy, and he has the CNN Youtube citations to prove
it.
Having debated Dondero for the first time this weekend I have to
say, holy shit your post made me laugh and laugh. Thanks
|11.28.07 @ 11:07PM|#
andyd,
I think the argument he was trying to make, however feebly, was
that exposing which tortureinterrogation techniques he
would use as president would enable the terrorists to prepare to
endure such techniques, and thus make interrogation more difficult,
leading to decreased national security.
Ludicrous? Indeed. I'm impressed with the doublethink capacity that
must be necessary for people to believe that "the greatest threat
our nation has ever faced" is run by people who are too stupid to
train their operatives to endure tortureinterrogation
techniques unless a presidential candidate talks about it.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:07PM|#
Just got to that part where RP says....
We're taxed to blow up bridges overseas,
We're taxed to rebuild bridges overseas..........
We need to get the government out of our wallet.
Yee--hah!
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 11:07PM|#
Fluffy, can you name a more influential website in the entire
Republican Party than Red State?
As far as Blog Talk, Ed Morrisey of Captain's Quarters is their
Political Director. He's the one hosting the Post-Debate show
tonight. Morrisey is a regular on Fox and CNN.
|11.28.07 @ 11:10PM|#
I think Huckabee is a moron (his answer on the death penalty question was one of the more intellectually dishonest things I've seen in a while) but he wraps each answer in home-spun goodness and struck me as what would be a very strong candidate for God's Own Party.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:10PM|#
"They're sick and tired of what they're getting!"--RP
Best question of the night:
Ghouliani roots for the Red Sox! Why?
BTW, Ghouliani admits on national TV to illegal betting on
baseball.
|11.28.07 @ 11:10PM|#
MNG,
I think Paul's point was that the money spent building bridges
overseas should be spent on repairing the infrastructure here at
home (that was the subject of the question, after all).
I doubt Dr Paul thinks building bridges is not a legitimate
function of govt, though probably not the federal govt.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 11:11PM|#
Fluffy- In fact...
Here's the amount of time each candidate got:
Romney -- 7:03, during 9 times
McCain -- 5:09, during 4 times
Giuliani -- 5:08, during 9 times
Thompson -- 4:38, during 4 times
Huckabee -- 4:14, during 5 times
Paul -- 3:27, during 4 times
Tancredo -- 2:20, during 4 times
Hunter -- 2:16, during 3 times
(Thanks to Brad Funkhauser) (LRC)
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 11:12PM|#
CAMPAIGN COMMERCIAL: "Ron Paul *says* he's in favor of traditional values. But at the last Republican debate, he admitted that he sexually harassed Bambi. American can do better than this. That's why we need Mike Huckabee. Mike Huckabee has never had sex with an unconsenting animal. Mike Huckabee . . . because America is the greatest country on earth."
teh|11.28.07 @ 11:13PM|#
CNN's negative ads "special" just called moveon.org "American
insurgents".
Way to fight against distortion, guys.
|11.28.07 @ 11:13PM|#
Without a doubt the single most courageous moment in the debate
was Paul's line about us occupying other people's countries. I'm
afraid that is gonna be all over the Right Wing Nut sites this
weekend, a collective gasp went out of the audience.
Of course the truth hurts.
BakedPenguin|11.28.07 @ 11:13PM|#
I came away from the debate more convinced that Rudy is the best of the GOP.
Bad MNG! BAD! Just for that, you have to watch this for penance.
|11.28.07 @ 11:14PM|#
iih-To be fair Romney's time has to be allotted between the two or three Romneys.
|11.28.07 @ 11:15PM|#
Could someone post a link to Paul's youtube vid? My tivo cut out for some reason before I got to see the end of this circus.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:15PM|#
Fluff, I have good friends who were there in Philly, there was
definitely 5k people there.
Well, actually, Weigel was there as well. Course, he wears glasses,
so maybe he couldn't count well.
Jay D|11.28.07 @ 11:15PM|#
iih,
Those were the first half totals. Here are the final
totals:
Giuliani -- 16:38, during 20 times
Romney -- 13:18, during 19 times
Thompson -- 12:16, during 12 times
McCain -- 11:00, during 12 times
Huckabee -- 10:00, during 11 times
Paul -- 7:43, during 9 times
Hunter -- 5:06, during 7 times
Tancredo -- 3:49, during 7 times
|11.28.07 @ 11:17PM|#
Actually, I heard that Huckabee's mom didn't tell him "you break it, you buy it" in reference to general store merchandise, but rather in reference to their neighbors' sows' hymens.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 11:19PM|#
MNG -- Ha ha... it took me a while to figure this one out. Well there is the MA Romney and the other Republican Romney. Frankly, screw him.... and I am one of the politer ones on this forum.
|11.28.07 @ 11:19PM|#
What was up with CNN giving the gay general the rambling soapbox? I mean, I agreed with his point but that was nuts...I also thought, in regards to Hunters answer, that everything he said about how many religious soldiers would not want to serve with a gay person could have applied 60 years ago with Southern soldiers and blacks...At least he gave an answer which is more than doubletalk Mitt could do (I used to think it would be great if gays could serve but now that we are in a war I don't and since this war will last forever I don't have to think about my answer in terms of peacetime)
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 11:20PM|#
HUCKABEE: "That sow did not have sexual relations with
me."
GIULIANI: "And that thing with the walrus was just a youthful
experiment."
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:22PM|#
McCain: Troops Say: Let Us Win
But the real truth is that the troops are hamstrung.
Just like Viet Nam.
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 11:25PM|#
Uh, oh. Not a good night for Ron Paul. First the Republicans
over at Ed Morrisey's Blog Talk dissed him. Then
RedState.com.
Now the Libertarians, as well. Over at Liberty Papers, three
editors in a row chime in that Paul bombed, and had his worst
debate performance to date. Further, they say that he came across
as kooky.
BakedPenguin|11.28.07 @ 11:25PM|#
MNG - I very much don't agree with your evaluation of Ghouliani, and I was (trying to) give you a hard time about a thread earlier today. Re: your status as animal lover, and the potential psychic pain you'd suffer watching a movie with the title I linked to. (Yes, I'm aware the content of the movie has nothing to do with horses.)
Iguana|11.28.07 @ 11:26PM|#
McCain: Troops Say: Let Us Win
Troops say: Let us have a fucking beer!
Oh, can't. Don't want to offend anybody of the Islamic faith.
|11.28.07 @ 11:26PM|#
TWC, its a shame Paul didn't respond with "they've already won. We declared mission accomplished. Pack up, come home - the troops succeeded."
|11.28.07 @ 11:28PM|#
Red State dissed Ron Paul? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Pack it all up and go home. No one saw this coming.
Redstate.com|11.28.07 @ 11:28PM|#
Yes, Eric Dondero is correct ladies and gentleman. Ron Paul bombed tonight. This is a not a laughing matter.
Iguana|11.28.07 @ 11:29PM|#
I wouldn't expect the libertarian contingent, who actually are
kind of kooky sometimes, to come in their pants over RP's
performance tonight.
And you, Doneroooooo, have an ax to grind, so your opinion is
tempered by your status as JILTED. Just like an ex-wife, you
wouldn't like Ron Paul if he was good.
|11.28.07 @ 11:29PM|#
I'm having a hard time deciding which candidate scares me most. This is shaping up to be the worst presidential election the US has seen since 2004.
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 11:30PM|#
HUCKABEE: "It's time to stop walking on eggshells about offending Muslim sensibilities. Well, I don't just *eat* pork, I f___ it! That should show that we're not knuckling under to any Muslim demands."
|11.28.07 @ 11:31PM|#
yes sage, it was just as great as you'd expect. *sigh* Its a shame he has no chance.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:32PM|#
I wish RP had done as well tonight as he did on Face The
Nation.
He probably could have taken some counsel from Mrs TWC who used to
teach argumentation and debate at Cal State.
He really shouldn't have tried to shift every question to the
anti-war answer. Not a sharp move. However, it could have gone far
worse, and it didn't.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:33PM|#
Did Paul's video get shown during the debate?
Yes, at the end.
|11.28.07 @ 11:34PM|#
Baked
I get it now. More psychic pain comes from any movie with a young
Jane Fonda in which she does not get naked, which I think is EVERY
ONE of them (man I hate actresses that make it on their sex appeal
but won't take it off in movies, false advertising baby).
Don't get me wrong Baked, I know Guiliani would eat a horse. And
Duncan Hunter would eat one while riding it...But I just thought
that for a GOP candidate to, in 2007, say he does not believe every
word in the Bible and that he would not sign a bill outlawing
abortion if it came to him was worth mighty big props. I don't care
if he's all gung ho on Iraq, they all are with the exception of
Paul
|11.28.07 @ 11:35PM|#
Republicans in attendance boo a man who has dedicated his life to our country, and RP backers are the kooks. Strange.
|11.28.07 @ 11:35PM|#
HUCKABEE: It would be irresponsible for a presidential candidate to specify exactly which sexual positions he may have enjoyed most with his sows. That would jeopardize national security.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:35PM|#
TWC, its a shame Paul didn't respond with "they've already
won. We declared mission accomplished. Pack up, come home - the
troops succeeded."
Hoot, that would have been, well, a hoot!
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 11:35PM|#
"More psychic pain comes from any movie with a young Jane Fonda
in which she does not get naked, which I think is EVERY ONE of them
. . ."
I didn't see many clothes on her during the opening scene of
*Barbarella, Queen of the Galaxy.* Did I miss something?
Eric Dondero|11.28.07 @ 11:36PM|#
Ron Paul had an excellent response tonight on the tax question.
He said, "sure, I support tax cuts." Then he went on to say that
you can't have tax cuts without spending cuts.
Kudos to Ron Paul for pointing that out.
|11.28.07 @ 11:36PM|#
McCain, as usual, gets props from me for his stand on torture. And Romney McTool gets jeers again for his lame answer.
|11.28.07 @ 11:37PM|#
I don't think anything was actually shown there Mad Max, strategic camera job and such...Good God that woman was hot back in Barberella days!
Satan|11.28.07 @ 11:38PM|#
Eric: "Kudos to Ron Paul . . ."
Hey, it's snowing! Who turned off the thermostat . . . Dondero, was
that you?
|11.28.07 @ 11:39PM|#
I don't get McCain.
The people who would be his base are the same people who support
Bush. I'm sure some people would snicker at the idea of trying to
identify with bush, but his approval rating is still 36%.
A laughable number to a general public, but considering only about
30% of the country would identify as republicans, Bush is widely
supported by the people who will vote in the primary.
McCain's big nemesis isn't even hillary, it's don rumsfeld. This is
a guy who had the same approval rating as Bush in Nov 06. Low in
general, but thru the roof among the party.
McCain is trying to compete the hard way...
distancing himself from bush/rumsfeld supporters,
going after romney over waterboarding. All those undecided out
there are hoping to vote for McCain, but get to watch him keep
putting his foot in his mouth. Stick a fork in him, but when he
loses, badly, he will come around again as a democratic veep. HRC
won't even have to riducle bush for any Iraq decisions or
waterboarding issues, McCain will do it for her.
Huckabee? say he runs away with Iowa. It sets him up for the
diaster of finishing fourth in NH.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:39PM|#
sage, I just turned off the TV and I didn't Tivo it so I can't rewind and see which ad it was. It was pretty good though. I'm sure it will be up soon.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 11:43PM|#
That should show that we're not knuckling under to any
Muslim demands."
I, for one, will continue to play football.
Take that, PF's!
|11.28.07 @ 11:45PM|#
I will name my teddy bear Mohammed, and dress him up with a pink dress and a bonnet.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 11:45PM|#
I am glad RP bluntly pointed out that he is the one most supported by the troops. People would be like "what?".. "no"... "lets find if that is true"... "no way"... "oh, hmm that is true"... "th..." oh... I was thinking of non-sheep-type GOPers.
iih (aka Ali)|11.28.07 @ 11:48PM|#
crimethink-- are you drunk? That was the other thread... you're in the debate thread... did CNN get to your head?
Mad Max|11.28.07 @ 11:49PM|#
"non-sheep-type GOPers."
GIULIANI: "Hey, those sheep are all liars."
THOMPSON: "And stalkers."
ROMNEY: "Totally untrustworthy as witnesses. And why did they wait
until now to come forward?"
|11.28.07 @ 11:53PM|#
Well, I think we can all agree that the big loser of tonight's
debate was Mitt. He was given the most time of any candidate, and
it turned out to be enough rope to hang himself.
It appeared to me that Giuliani and the Huckster did fairly well,
though I despise both.
RP and Thompson pretty much treaded water. TBH, I think we've
gotten to the point that these debate appearances aren't going to
help Dr Paul much...his philosophy is not conducive to being
explained in a couple of 30-second sound bites, and those who would
be attracted by his scrums with the establishment candidates
probably already have been.
|11.28.07 @ 11:55PM|#
iih,
I thought we were having a Giuliani-Tancredo style pissing contest
to see who was least afraid of offending Muslims. My mistake.
|11.28.07 @ 11:59PM|#
Well, iih, at least I'm not caving to the taunts of Donderooooooooo! and using my real name on this site...
|11.29.07 @ 12:00AM|#
Just about to watch the replay.
Question for Mr Dondero: Have Redstate, Free Republic, Powerline ,
Captain's quarters, Hotair, or any one of the maintstream
establishment Republican websites *ever* given any benefit of the
doubt or even consideration to the Paul campaign? From my reading
of their sites, their minds have been made up already. This is
mostly due to the differences on Iraq, but it seems to me they look
so much for specific stuff to highlight Paul in a negative light
that it surprises me they are not Democrats.
|11.29.07 @ 12:01AM|#
What was up with CNN giving the gay general the rambling
soapbox?
Perhaps the fact that he's a member of a gay and lesbian steering
committee for Senator Clinton has something to do with it.
Fluffy|11.29.07 @ 12:01AM|#
Mr. Nice Guy -
I give McCain absolutely zero credit on the torture issue. He has
stepped up on the anti-torture rhetoric, but the disgusting charade
he pulled when he pretended to be against the Military Commissions
Act and then facilitated the passage of a final bill that included
immunization of torturers and war criminals, and slackening of the
standards of what constitutes torture, means that he deserves no
credit. It's all well and good to say you're against torture at the
debate, but then to hand the administration the legal tools it
needs to torture, and to escape punishment for torture that has
already occurred, is disgraceful. In some ways Guiliani's open
slobbering for the rack and the iron maiden is preferable.
iih (aka Ali)|11.29.07 @ 12:03AM|#
crimethink-- the best way to silence a baby is to lull him to sleep ;-) My technique...
|11.29.07 @ 12:03AM|#
Man, Crist looks and acts just like someone playing the Governor of Florida on "CSI:Miami" would.
iih (aka Ali)|11.29.07 @ 12:04AM|#
"Ali" is my (great grandfather's) name! See, that's what I call smart honesty.
|11.29.07 @ 12:05AM|#
In some ways Guiliani's open slobbering for the rack and the
iron maiden is preferable.
Drooliani?
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 12:15AM|#
crimethink-- are you drunk?
Crimethink's in the bag-ag, Crimethink's in the bag-ag......nanny,
nanny, nanny......
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 12:19AM|#
iih, thanks, yes, that was what was playing....
Appreciate the link.
Sam Grove|11.29.07 @ 12:28AM|#
What we see is that winning a 'debate' such as this isn't about
being right, it's about giving the audience the impression of
certitude, confidence, of being masterful.
I'd say RP attached too much significance to this and was feeling a
little desperate (reasonable, given that 'they' were out to get
him), and so was not in the best mental state to give his best. The
shortness of his allotted time worked against him as well.
No matter. What people need to know is that no matter what the
other candidates say about taxes, fiscal responsibility, etc., very
little will change if one of them is elected.
Elect Ron Paul, and you can be assured that he'll start reeling in
the U.S. empire.
People need to understand just how much it's costing us.
BakedPenguin|11.29.07 @ 12:35AM|#
MNG - I was going to say Barbarella, too, but Mad Max
beat me to it. Your point about camera position is well taken,
though. I'd be surprised if Klute didn't have nudity,
given the subject matter, but I've never seen it. I don't remember
Tout va Bien well enough.
Ghouliani is so incredibly arrogant and imperial. After eight years
of Bush, those are high on my list of characteristics to avoid in
presidential candidates.
Jay D|11.29.07 @ 12:36AM|#
I think Huckabee indirectly defused any lingering issues there
may have been about unsavory Ron Paul supporters. Either that or
Ron Paul already blazed the trail and the issue was already defused
so that Huckabee could say:
"You know, in my position in this entire election, I need the
support of anybody and everybody I can get."
|11.29.07 @ 12:42AM|#
Wooh! I've been quoted on Reason! Thanks for coming to the
Huckaromliani heckling party.
Dave "Let's waterboard him and ask the question again!"
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 12:48AM|#
Sam, yes........
As Warty says:
"Ron Paul needs to stop infecting me with his horrible, horrible
optimism."
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 12:53AM|#
I don't actually know who Warty is or if he is a real person or if he is a figment. But...that is a classic quote.
Mad Max|11.29.07 @ 12:55AM|#
Off topic, but here's an item about the creeping menace of
Canuckofascism:
CALLING SPEECH RESTRICTORS "ENEMIES OF FREE SPEECH" CAN NOW LEAD TO
LEGAL LIABILITY IN CANADA [capitalization in original]
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2007_11_25-2007_12_01.shtml#1196120116
iih (aka Ali)|11.29.07 @ 1:04AM|#
Mad Max- you're worried about free speech in Canada? try to keep yours here first.
Mad Max|11.29.07 @ 1:07AM|#
iih,
Nothing human is alien to me.
Plus, Canada is often used as a dry run for some of the wackier
theories of American law professors which can't get adopted in the
US (eg, MacKinnon/Dworkin and their feminist censorship). We owe it
to the Canucks to counteract the harmful influence of other
Americans. Also, a censorship idea works out in Canada, guess who's
next?
iih (aka Ali)|11.29.07 @ 1:09AM|#
ah-- so it was sort of a predictive reference. its all to keep
us safe.
Good night, my friend, and good luck!
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 1:13AM|#
In America we believe that if you can click on www.hotgotdamchickswillfuckyou.com that we have free speech.
iih (aka Ali)|11.29.07 @ 1:15AM|#
TWC- and getting your video on a Youtube debate. I am still ticked off I guess, you?
|11.29.07 @ 1:29AM|#
Could the liberal media (no, really) be so afraid that RP can beat Hillary, that they'll do anything to make sure a less electable GOPer gets the nod?
|11.29.07 @ 1:31AM|#
When will politicians wake up and realize that the base of
people who are truly passionate about 2nd Amendment rights aren't
generally deer hunters?
A guy who buys one rifle and fires a single box of shells through
it once a year isn't going to be as motivated on the issue as, say,
someone who's interests are defensive and/or competitive.
Hunter scored a couple of points with his bit about Bunker Hill and
all that, but lost it when he started waxing on about his 20 gauge
side-by-side shotgun.
Giuliani truly revealed his hypocrisy on the issue when he
basically said "Yeah, DC's gun laws are probably unconstitutional,
but NYC's aren't."
Never mind the fact that simple ownership of firearms in NYC
requires jumping through an obscene number of legal hoops. To say
nothing of the fact that the only people in NYC with concealed
carry permits are the rich and/or famous.
Giuliani got booed on the gun issue, and rightfully so.
|11.29.07 @ 1:34AM|#
No doubt Eric Dondero will be along shortly to tell me how Rudy
will save the 2nd Amendment.
Should be funny.
|11.29.07 @ 1:55AM|#
Paul- Driven by his love for liberty and the Constitution. And
he's honest, knowledgeable, and smart!
Huckabee-Driven by his love for his own personal Jesus (The one
that tells him to actually read all those boring court papers
before he signs the execution letter.)
Giuliani-Driven by his desire to be president but he's good at
faking llke he cares about other stuff. Also, he will be all too
happy to get America into another needless war in the Mideast as
Quid Pro Quo for support from the neocon media machine.
Romney-Driven by his desire to be president and it's so painfully
obvious that's all he cares about.
McCain --Cares about principles, some of which as characterized by
his generally fiscally conservative voting record and opposition to
torture are good. While others like his lack of regard for the
First Amendment and pro Iraq war suck.
I wanna crash now so I'll do the rest tomorrow.
Speaking of YouTube-Here's current my fave musical vid: Squeeze -
"Cool For Cats"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pehHNJWKf3g
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 2:04AM|#
iih aka, wait, now, I'm into the bottle so's I gots to figure
out what you mean. Gimme a minute or so. Meantime, best to listen
to a little Skynard.
Try this one.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08oiras-irA
Gimme A Tee For Texas, Gimme a Tee for Ron Paul
Had more pretty women than a passenger train can haul regards,
TWC
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 2:08AM|#
My cousin, who is the crown prince of Mac (come on, you know
I'll drop a name whenever possible) says, he was really close to
the McCain Man recently AND if anyone has sold out in pursuit of
the presidency it would be McCain.
Here it is: Jason saw Satan holding McCain's briefcase.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 2:09AM|#
Gawd Rick, yer worse than with the musical connections............
|11.29.07 @ 3:06AM|#
I was at the rally in Philadelphia, and the estimates ranged from 3,800 to 5,000+. I would venture that there was at least 4,000 when RP took the stage. The entire Mall area was packed.
lunchstealer|11.29.07 @ 8:47AM|#
"Everyone's trying to out-Tancredo Tancredo!" ("That's a
verb?")
It's the first-person singular, present tense, of the verb
tancredere
|11.29.07 @ 8:51AM|#
Everyone speaking to Eric Dondero should always keep in mind
that:
1. He advocates genocide.
2. He thinks Saddam Hussein was behind the Oklahoma City
bombing.
Keep these things in mind when reading his inane opinions about the
debate.
And he asserts that I'm an "insane ...
isolationist America-hating" person.
I'm so proud I could just burst!
|11.29.07 @ 9:03AM|#
I don't actually know who Warty is or if he is a real person
or if he is a figment. But...that is a classic quote.
Sometimes I think I'm real, sometimes I don't. But I am glad to
learn that I amuse.
Eric Dondero|11.29.07 @ 9:07AM|#
So, what did you all think of Ron Paul's line that pulling out
of Vietnam was the best thing for America, and that the Vietnamese
are now "friends of ours"?
Never mind the over 1 million boat people who fled the Communists
after our pull-out, many of them drowned in the South China sea.
Never mind the hundreds of thousands who were thrown into
re-education camps by the Vietnamese Communists, many of them
tortured, raped and starved to death.
Never mind the over 2 million Cambodians who were brutally murdered
as a direct result of our pull-out by Pol Pot and the Khmer
Rouge.
It's amazing that Ron Paul has a significant number of Vietnamese
refugees in his Coastal Texas District. Is he that callous? Does he
not realize that those people murdered were some of the very
relatives of his constituents?
Eric Dondero|11.29.07 @ 9:08AM|#
RedState.com has a great article this morning headling: "Ron
Paul is no Barry Goldwater."
The complete quote of Ron Paul saying that the "Vietnamese are now
friends of ours" is in the article.
IMHO easily the goofiest, most offensive statement of the entire
debate last night.
|11.29.07 @ 9:12AM|#
Aren't they? There are signs up around campus advertising a book drive for students in Vietnam. Seems odd to be giving old textbooks to our enemies, dunnit?
robc|11.29.07 @ 9:19AM|#
Eric,
Ron Paul had an excellent response tonight on the tax question.
He said, "sure, I support tax cuts." Then he went on to say that
you can't have tax cuts without spending cuts.
Kudos to Ron Paul for pointing that out.
Thanks for pointing that out. And since that is the overriding
issue, the most important issue there is, I declare Paul the winner
of the debate. Redstate.com was wrong.
|11.29.07 @ 9:30AM|#
Dondero, I think the question is, would us staying there for another 10 years have prevented that? Or would we just be throwing away the lives of thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese just to delay the inevitable?
robc|11.29.07 @ 9:36AM|#
My best friend is Vietnamese. I dont know whats so goofy about
it.
Unless you think LBJ was right to get us into Vietnam, then
whenever we pulled out was the best thing to do.
Us pulling out did not kill 2M Cambodians. Pol Pot killed 2M
Cambodians. He is solely (well, I guess he had some help) to
blame.
If Im going to blame anyone for the mess in Vietnam, Im going to
blame the French.
iih (aka Ali)|11.29.07 @ 9:47AM|#
This was posted at a financial website that I monitor:
"Well,the debate was interesting. After CNN's biggest ever online
poll before the debate with RP getting 95% on the online votes they
managed to avoid asking him a question for 35 minutes.
"The banker next to me said he was on the fence about Ron Paul, but
I saw him applauding RP.
"After the debate I got to say a few words with Dr Paul and he
signed my Mises/RP booklet and I wished him well.
"Had a few words with Duncan Hunter who went back on his heels when
I said that as a 'Nam combat veteran with 27 combat assaults under
fire I am opposed to US foreign illegal immoral unethical and
unconstitutional wars. Some guy there tried to argue with me, but
stopped and said we disagree and left.
"Outside there were RP supporters filling several blocks. Then I
drove to the Palladium theater where about a thousand supporters
filled the little theater and RP gave a 30 minutes speech getting
into more thoughtful issues than the debate allowed.
"Cops were really good and no one got hurt. RP looked very
energetic and St Pete gave him an enthusiastic welcome."
Tacos mmm...|11.29.07 @ 9:50AM|#
Tacos mmm...|11.29.07 @ 9:51AM|#
Never mind the over 1 million boat people who fled the Communists after our pull-out, many of them drowned in the South China sea. Never mind the hundreds of thousands who were thrown into re-education camps by the Vietnamese Communists, many of them tortured, raped and starved to death.
And certainly nevermind the 1-4 million Vietnamese civilians who
perished in the war itself.
T|11.29.07 @ 9:51AM|#
Eric,
So, what did you all think of Ron Paul's line that pulling out
of Vietnam was the best thing for America, and that the Vietnamese
are now "friends of ours"?
Is either statement factually wrong? It sure as hell sucked for the
Vietnamese and Cambodians, but that doesn't mean it was the wrong
decision for America. I don't know if the Vietnamese are our
friends now, but I sure have a lot of stuff made there, so I guess
that's the next best thing. Either way, truth may hurt, but if
you're offended by it, that's your problem.
|11.29.07 @ 9:53AM|#
"The complete quote of Ron Paul saying that the "Vietnamese are
now friends of ours" is in the article."
"IMHO easily the goofiest, most offensive statement of the entire
debate last night."
What's so goofy about it? Are they our enemies?
rho|11.29.07 @ 9:53AM|#
Who says the Liberty Papers guys are libertarians? And for real,
who thinks they speak for libertarians in general? They've been on
the "knock Ron Paul for free hits" bandwagon for months now. The
more money he raises the more they go after him. They're
whores.
Eric Dondero, your mom likes it when I give her a Dutch oven.
Hooter McBoob|11.29.07 @ 9:55AM|#
Crimethink, we should stay everywhere forever and ever no matter the cost in American lives and tax dollars to make sure that everyone has the exact freedoms we tell them they should have.
|11.29.07 @ 9:56AM|#
"And certainly nevermind the 1-4 million Vietnamese civilians
who perished in the war itself."
And the millions more who would have perished if we would have
carried the war on much longer.
The Democratic Republican|11.29.07 @ 9:56AM|#
Donderooooo is never more of an irritating pus bag than when he is trying to sound neutral and rational. I have never once seen him post an original idea. EVERYTHING he says is supported NOT by argument but by NAME DROPPING. For the love of goodness, people, stop trying to have intelligent conversations with this hack that is so scared of dying that he'd kill everyone and so scared of living that he's afraid to believe something without pointing out everyone else who believes the same thing.
|11.29.07 @ 10:09AM|#
"(Dondero) asserts that I'm an "insane ... isolationist
America-hating" person."
He called me scum and told me to get out of America.
|11.29.07 @ 10:11AM|#
Must...not...respond...to...Dondero...
IQ...dropping...from...his...continual...stupidity...
Tell us how we should all support a crypto-fascist New Yorker
again, Dondy.
Edward|11.29.07 @ 10:16AM|#
Ron Paul's position on immigration is pretty much the same as Tancrdeo's, isn't it?
|11.29.07 @ 10:27AM|#
"Ron Paul's position on immigration is pretty much the same as
Tancrdeo's, isn't it?"
Ron Paul said that if we had a pure free market and no welfare
state, we would be begging immigrants to come here to fill all the
jobs. He's only concerned about immigrants coming here and getting
on our already overburdened welfare system. I don't think Tancredo
would take that position. I actually believe Tancredo is a
racist.
Tacos mmm...|11.29.07 @ 10:33AM|#
Ron Paul's position on immigration is pretty much the same as Tancrdeo's, isn't it?
No, Tancredo is more concerned with cultural effects, Paul with
economic. I disagree with both, but Tacredo's position is morally
ugly.
Sam Grove|11.29.07 @ 10:34AM|#
"Never mind the over 2 million Cambodians who were brutally
murdered as a direct result of our pull-out by Pol Pot and the
Khmer Rouge."
Let us contemplate what might have been had we not gone into
Vietnam in the first place. Go even further...i we had not engaged
in spreading the U.S. empire around the world. That's what happens
if you leave government up to the 'experts'.
No doubt it would have been more accurate if RP had said "...and
now we trade with them."
|11.29.07 @ 10:53AM|#
Ron Paul, my former boss, is not an explicit Anti-Semite, but he
is most certainly anti-Israel and one could make a strong case -
outright anti-Jewish.
During my 6-year stint with him, I served as his only Jewish
staffer. He regularly touted me as proof against allegations that
he wasn't an Anti-Semite, even one time ordering me to wear Jewish
clothing and attend a press conference of his Democrat opponent who
was exposing his links to Anti-Semitic groups. I felt used.
(For the record, Ron did not know I was Jewish until I had already
been hired.)
Ron and I finally departed ways, partly because I was ashamed to
work for such an explicitly anti-Israel advocate.
If you still doubt his anti-Jewish/anti-Israel views, ask yourself
this question:
Why is it that when Ron Paul talks about the evils of taxpayer
dollars going overseas for foreign aid, he only singles out Israel
as a recipient? Why does he never mention the billions we send each
year to Egypt for foreign aide? Turkey, the Palestinians, other
Nations? Never a peep out of Paul about those dollars. It's just
always the "Jews."
In addition, I eat my own farts and am nuttier than Margot
Kidder.
|11.29.07 @ 11:11AM|#
Guys,
Pol Pot was an enemy of the Vientamese communists, and after his
faction got into power, the US supported Pol Pot.
If anything the U.S. was in Vietnam led to Pol Pot's rise because
the U.S. government intervention in Cambodian as part of its war
effort destabilized the regime in power.
|11.29.07 @ 11:13AM|#
If anything the U.S. was in Vietnam led to Pol Pot's rise
because the U.S. government intervention in Cambodian as part of
its war effort destabilized the regime in power.
You MOTHERFUCKING ISLAMOCOMMIE-LOVING PACIFIST! It's
America-bashers like you that are going to cause THE BEAUTIFUL
WOMEN I FUCK EVERY NIGHT to be forced to wear MOTHERFUCKING
BURQAS!
VM|11.29.07 @ 11:19AM|#
"No, Tancredo is more concerned [...], Paul with economic"
expand on this, pls!
Fluffy|11.29.07 @ 11:50AM|#
Obviously pulling out of Viet Nam was the best thing for
America.
The war in Viet Nam only served our national interest to the extent
that it helped us in the Cold War. We WON the Cold War; therefore,
expending any additional resources in Viet Nam beyond what occurred
historically would have been a waste of our fucking time, blood,
and money, even by the terms outlined by advocates of the war.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 11:58AM|#
Eric D, we we're not all in lockstep with RP, but I share most
of his values. There isn't another candidate except Kubby who can
make that claim. I have no intention of voting for some chota-head
so we can have divided government nor some other loser because he
won't be as bad as the chota-head. Sorry.
I've made note right here at H&R of Viet Nam's complete descent
into madness, oppression, genocide, and annihilation after the US
fled like a big dog that got caught shitting on the lawn and was
shot in the nuts with a bee bee gun.
Right, wrong, or indifferent the pictures of the choppers
evacuating the embassy make one sick. 56,000 dead guys, a black
marble monument that you can't look at from closer than 100 yards
because you know what it says on it, and that's what it all comes
down to in the end.
That said, there is no reason to believe that fleeing Iraq would
have a different result. But it could. Personally, I see chaos and
bloodshed but, hey, it's the Middle East, so what else is
new?
And 30 years from now? All bets are off. Might be Japan, might be
China, might be Nam, might be Afghanistan, might be Egypt, we have
no way to forecast what Iraq will turn into, with or without our
big noses stuck into their business.
So, if you don't want to turn tail and run, let's have a short-term
plan to get the hell out of Dodge. I'll go with that. But RP is
still Da Man, and if he immediately brings everybody home from
Iraq, well, that's okay too.
|11.29.07 @ 12:10PM|#
373 comments! Who says we are all about drugs and
religion?
"""9:07: Giuliani can cut crime because he cut it Harlem. ("We got
black people out of Harlem! That reduced crime.")"""
One of the methods Rudy used to cut crime in upper Manhattan was to
have the police restrict access to public streets in a high crime
zone to only those who lived on those streets. Cops blocked the
roads and checked ID for those looking to pass.
|11.29.07 @ 12:20PM|#
"""Giuliani-Driven by his desire to be president but he's good
at faking llke he cares about other stuff."""
To be fair, Rudy does care. He cares enough to form his ideas and
then expects everyone to do it his way, all else be damned. He's
very Bush Jr. in that respect. Blinders on, move forward.
|11.29.07 @ 1:08PM|#
He [Dondero] called me scum and told me to get out of
America.
And I respect you for that.
|11.29.07 @ 1:46PM|#
The Wine Commonsewer:
Gawd Rick, yer worse than with the musical
connections............
Is the full import of that comment that you don't enjoy my musical
links?
If so, how's this one?:
Blondie - "Eat To The Beat"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HerT1Buv0Pg
Eric Dondero|11.29.07 @ 2:37PM|#
The very last days before the fall of Saigon are critical to
answering those questions: Would our continued presence have helped
stave off the North Vietnamese Communists.
The last straw was the vote in Congress by the Democrts cutting off
funding for any continued support.
There was one crazy-ass General in the Northern sector of South
Vietname that was holding off the NVA. He could have held on. And
in the extreme South, they could have had an enclave, as
well.
But we pulled the rug right out from them. We flew the S.
Vietnamese President out to a Carrier, leaving the country in
chaos. But the crazy-ass General and a couple others could have
held on.
But the following week, they flew him too out to a Carrier for
"talks." Once there, the story goes, they wouldn't let him
leave.
That was the end.
Eric Dondero|11.29.07 @ 2:40PM|#
I'm a partisan Republican. And I love Gerald Ford. But I must
admit, he and his administration share a great deal of the blame
for the final fall of South Vietname. Even though the Dems cut off
the funding, if he had just let the Generals continue the War,
maybe things would have turned out differently.
You know there are some islands, one of them of decent size off the
extreme southern coast of S. Vietnam. Perhaps they could have fled
there, and our Navy could have protected a government in
exile?
But who cares, I guess. After all Ron Paul declared last night that
the Vietnamese Communists are just "fine folks."
Eric Dondero|11.29.07 @ 2:46PM|#
Wine Connoseiur, thank you for saying that. Yes, I fully agree. That footage of those choppers leaving Saigon in May of 1975 was perhaps the lowest moment in the history of the United STates. Disgraceful. I hope to never, ever, ever see something like that again in my lifetime.
|11.29.07 @ 3:18PM|#
But who cares, I guess. After all Ron Paul declared last night that the Vietnamese Communists are just "fine folks."
The Vietnam of today is not the Vietnam you're talking about. While
they're still Communist, they've made a large number of free market
developments in the last few years, and are on a path to becoming a
nation willing to engage in global trade.
Conflating modern Vietnam with the Vietnam of the 1970's is a bit
like conflating modern day Japan with Imperial Japan of the
1940's.
|11.29.07 @ 3:49PM|#
Or comparing the Libertarian Party of the 1970s with the libertarian movement as it exists today.
|11.29.07 @ 4:03PM|#
That footage of those choppers leaving Saigon in May of 1975 was
perhaps the lowest moment in the history of the United
STates.
no wait....it was 9/11...no wait....it was the attack on pearl
harbor...no wait....it was the battle of gettysberg.
Of course, there's no chance it was the image of the little girl on
fire running down the road after American planes dropped napalm on
her village.
A true American sees the good and the bad in his country and speaks
out against the bad.
Even Stephen Decatur's famous toast recognized that our country my
not always be in the right.
Does anyone wonder what Stephen Decatur's Supply Clerk thought?
|11.29.07 @ 4:37PM|#
Eric:
I'm a partisan Republican.
Me too! Cuz our party has some stellar folks like Ron Paul. But
there are some who I would never vote for-Like war hawk Rudy.
After all Ron Paul declared last night that the Vietnamese
Communists are just "fine folks."
Yet Ron Paul is the most pro-capitalism and anti-Commie, as well as
anti-quasi Commie (Like Hillary), of all the candidates.
That footage of those choppers leaving Saigon in May of 1975
was perhaps the lowest moment in the history of the United
States.
Certainly no worse then when our government invaded Iraq sans good
cause. Or when our government forced Japanese Americans into
concentration camps during WWII. And BTW, it took the decency and
leadership of Ronald Reagan to see to it that those folks were
given restitution for being victims of their own government's
aggression.
|11.29.07 @ 4:44PM|#
Hey VM,
Perhaps you can link to a tune that our friend, The Wine
Commonsewer, likes. He's not digging mine.
VM|11.29.07 @ 5:43PM|#
Rick:
As you wish:
King
Rocker by Generation X
Ever
Fallen In Love by the Buzzcocks
News
of the World by the Jam
A
Beat for You by Pseudo Echo
Red
Light by Wall of Voodoo
thanks to those who posted on Ut00b. Go out and buy the artists'
stuff!
|11.29.07 @ 6:20PM|#
Notice how no matter how badly a war is going, it could have
been won if we had just held on for a few days longer after we pull
out.
I think we just need to set a time limit. 5 years. Fix it or leave.
Fixed budget to start and once the money's gone, exit, stage left.
Its all bulshit that "we could have one if...."
Dondero,
Vietnam was lost. The generals/CIA/presidents had ~15 years to
prove that a stable, democratic, self defending Vietnam could have
been established, but they didn't. We pulled out, end of story.
You're what if games are just neocon mental masturbation.
John Rhoads|11.29.07 @ 6:31PM|#
Really? We're debating the contention that we could have won in Vietnam? If there's ever been a case of a group of people that didn't want us there, it was that one. Let me put it this way: the "museum of American atrocities" in Vietnam does not feature prominently all of the troops leaving. We spent most of the war fighting south Vietnamese people who wanted to be communists...if that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about Vietnam, I don't know what will.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 7:55PM|#
Rick Barton: NO, NO, NO, I love your musical connections. After
drinking my way through the debates my keyboard began playing
tricks on me.
Meant to say, you're worse than ME with the musical connections,
meaning, that I love to do that too. Everything on earth can be
connected to something musical. I don't do it as much here but I'm
always throwing in obscure U Tube video references at TWC. Keep in
mind, I'm restraining myself over there, otherwise there'd be three
videos per post.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 8:15PM|#
Lost is right 15 years with Nam and no results.
Got a note from a friend the other day who tells me the war is
going well now, that they're doing things today that should have
been done three years ago. Problem is that there are a whole lot of
people just like me who DON'T CARE ANYMORE.
Not saying I'm a pro-war guy but, looking at the Iraq war from a
pro-war point of view I cannot see how it could have been done
worse. You have a country the size of So Cal with a population the
size of LA and, after six years, thousands of lives, and billions
of dollars, you cannot contain it. Time to pull the curtain
down.
As for Viet Nam, the debate over 'could we have won' can go on
forever. Truth is, you can always win a war. At least if you are
the US. It's dealing with the aftermath that's ticklish. So our
guys bled and died and Nam went commie anyway. Shoulda sat that one
out too.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.29.07 @ 8:27PM|#
I take that back, Iraq's population is bigger than LA. More like 27 million, closer in size to all of So Cal than just LA. Still.
Brian Ewart|11.29.07 @ 8:43PM|#
I think Rudy really believes that he saved NYC from King Kong. I have no doubt that the thinks he can control the weather.
Sam Grove|11.29.07 @ 8:52PM|#
Let us not forget the My Lai massacre.
Jeez, it's not like we lost defending OUR country from invaders, WE
WERE THE INVADERS!
Those neocons are a bunch of sociopaths, but I guess every country
has their own lot.
We must not let these sociopaths remain in power.
They just don't comprehend that there is anything wrong with their
way.
They can't admit that they want the U.S., not as the world
policeman, but as the world bully.
When you hear someone say "We can't just leave, that would be
admitting defeat and would be seen as weaker.", just tell them:
"That's bully talk."
Bullies are cowards, that's why they pick on the smaller and weaker
people and countries.
|11.29.07 @ 10:39PM|#
That footage of those choppers leaving Saigon in May of 1975
was perhaps the lowest moment in the history of the United STates.
Disgraceful. I hope to never, ever, ever see something like that
again in my lifetime.
Is it worth the lives of another 3,000 US troops and tens of
thousands of Iraqis to keep from seeing that again?
Not to mention that there's no guarantee that if we stayed for
another 10 years, the same scene would occur once we finally
left.
Sam Grove|11.29.07 @ 11:21PM|#
I hope to never, ever, ever see something like that again in
my lifetime.
The obvious way to avoid the recurrence of such a scene is to avoid
getting into such a situation in the first place.
|11.30.07 @ 12:06AM|#
VM-Thanks! Interesting picks from you as usual!
The Wine Commonsewer-Very Cool! And what a relief. I though that I
could speak Califorian ok but after I read your comment, I wasn't
so sure. ;)
|11.30.07 @ 12:29AM|#
crimethink at 10:39pm,
Quite nicely put! And also, five years after our military has split
from Iraq, how likely is it that the government that remains there
will even be something that we're proud of after all the US
casualties.
|11.30.07 @ 12:32AM|#
What Sam Grove said, which was:
The obvious way to avoid the recurrence of such a scene is to
avoid getting into such a situation in the first place.
Nemo|11.30.07 @ 12:34AM|#
Don't worry Eric, we'll kill as many people as it takes so you don't have to feel bad about watching choppers leave someone else's country.
|11.30.07 @ 3:12AM|#
We spent most of the war fighting south Vietnamese people
who wanted to be communists...if that doesn't tell you everything
you need to know about Vietnam, I don't know what will.
Isn't that because we spent most of the war fighting a defensive
action in South Vietnam instead of invading the hell out of North
Vietnam? A simple examination of the Confederacy's strategy in our
own Civil War should have told us at the time that it would not be
enough.
As for the people, did they actually want to be communists - or
were they just sick of living under a corrupt, fascist regime?
Besides, what of those who did not want to be communists -
or don't they count? Or will you, like Dan T., tell me that they
could have just moved, if they didn't like it?
|11.30.07 @ 4:16AM|#
Of course, there's no chance it was the image of the little
girl on fire running down the road after American planes dropped
napalm on her village.
A true American sees the good and the bad in his country and speaks
out against the bad.
Sure, I can agree that an honest person shouldn't ignore the evil
his country does - I think we all can. But what kind of American
sees only the bad done by his country and even exagerates it while
down-playing, dismissing, ignoring, or even denying the atrocities
committed by the other side? Anyone here want to put a name to that
kind of American? I remember there were some of those kinds of
Americans around during the Viet Nam War; many of them worked in
the media and the entertainment industries...or the education
establishment. And there seems to be a few around yet during our
present conflict in the Middle East.
Oh, and just for the record...no, I did not support going to Viet
Nam. As far as Iraq goes we picked the wrong time and have gone
about it the wrong way. One would think we would have learned from
our experience in southeast Asia that if you decide to go to war
with someone, then you had better be prepared to go all out to win.
Because if you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to win, you
will probably get your head handed to you, the enemy not being
quite as chivalrous as some Americans imagine themselves to be.
Sam Grove|11.30.07 @ 1:02PM|#
But what kind of American sees only the bad done by his
country and even exagerates it while down-playing, dismissing,
ignoring, or even denying the atrocities committed by the other
side?
You are, of course, speaking of the left. They haven't the
intellectual honesty to be worth engaging in debate. AND, we were
in fact speaking about those who pretend the U.S. government can do
no wrong apparently simply because it is OUR government. Hence our
commentary on the thought that the sight of OUR helicopters leaving
ANOTHER country being the worst thing that comes to some peoples
mind rather than the millions of tons of explosives and chemicals
we dropped on a country of agrarian villages.
The libertarian take is that a U.S. empire is anti-american,
because, as I was taught in school, America is all about freedom,
and an empire is incompatible with freedom.
Why?
Because an empire is all about the power of the state and freedom
is all about the power of free people be able to control their own
lives and fortunes and not have to pay for military bases in 130
OTHER countries.
|11.30.07 @ 4:30PM|#
The libertarian take is that a U.S. empire is anti-american,
because, as I was taught in school, America is all about freedom,
and an empire is incompatible with freedom.
You are "preaching to the choir", Sam.
RedStateRulez|11.30.07 @ 9:48PM|#
A site comparable to RedState.com?
How about RonPaulForums?
Put them both in Alexa.
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