Government Shutdown: Congress Is Doing Its Job

Doing nothing is often more constructive than doing something.

Liberal pundits and politicians like to refer to them as "hostage takers," "anarchists," "political terrorists," "lemmings with suicide vests" and so on. Grass-roots conservatives think they're a bunch of weak-kneed RINO defeatists. They have no charismatic stars, few compelling ideas, no one leading a Gingrich-like grand ideological charge against liberal institutions. There is no cohesive strategy to speak of, no Tom DeLay whipping the troops into line, no ideological cohesion, no chance of winning very much.

And they're probably the best thing going in Washington right now.

As we maneuver through another shutdown saga, John Boehner's fate reminds me of the scene in Woody Allen's "Love and Death" in which a blundering war hero, returning from the Napoleonic Wars, is confronted by a Russian nobleman:

Nobleman: I understand your heroism was quite inadvertent.

Allen: You should have such inadvertent heroism.

There is a metaphysical truth that most small-government types would likely agree on but rarely admit: Most of the time, doing nothing is a lot more constructive than doing something. And no one's done nothing quite like the Boehner-led House. Sure, there's a lot of big talk from Republican senators, but it's the House that doesn't get stuff done.

After the passage of health care reform, the most consequential legislation in many of our lifetimes (enacted without a single vote from the minority), a new regulatory regime for the financial sector and a nearly trillion-dollar stimulus that funded an array of left-wing hobbyhorses, proper checks and balances finally kicked in. The House slowed the progressive agenda in 2010, stopping the majority's steamrolling. Unless the GOP loses the House in 2014, Barack Obama's seen his last major reform.

And when the House "anarchists" do hold out, as they did with the debt ceiling in 2010, they've compelled the majority to make genuine compromises. Now, according to the Congressional Budget Office, sequestration only trims about $44 billion in 2013 -- or 1.5 percent of the budget. Sad as it is, that makes sequestration one of the most successful spending cuts in the past two decades. Even more significantly, it illustrates to many voters that, contra the Chicken Littles, a cut isn't tantamount to national suicide.

That's not to say that this brand of "hostage taking" (nee "negotiations") hasn't taken its toll. It seems that pundits have suffered most. "Is this the kind of government our Founding Fathers envisioned?" asks a worked-up Roger Simon in his syndicated column. The answer is: Yes, it probably is. In a republic, majoritarian rule is checked, and the president doesn't get to unilaterally dictate which legislation is negotiable.

Obamacare passed. The Supreme Court told us that government's coercing Americans to purchase health care is kosher. Americans went ahead and voted for Obama a second time around. That's life. And political reality means that Republicans probably won't be able to stop Obamacare any time soon -- if ever. At some point, they'll fold.

But in the meantime, the minority is using every leverage point available to try to slow implementation. That is neither unprecedented nor unfathomable. Does the minority know what the heck it's doing? I doubt it. But at the end of the day, the country is still talking about Obamacare rather than some phony administration "job bill." That's a win.

Boehner, even if his heroism happens to be mostly inadvertent, doesn't get enough credit for having stopped scores of progressive ideas -- and often in the face of tremendous pressure. Obama, once on track to implement more wide-ranging reforms than any president since FDR, now nips at the margins through executive orders, court challenges and regulation by fiat. It's hardly ideal. But if you believe that's a positive development, thank the House.

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  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    There is a metaphysical truth that most small-government types would likely agree on but rarely admit: Most of the time, doing nothing is a lot more constructive than doing something.

    Freddy Kruger doesn't mind the bars on the windows when he's already inside the house.

    Or, as Chesterton put it,

    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist might himself repent of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition. Thus we have two great types — the advanced person who rushes us into ruin, and the retrospective person who admires the ruins. He admires them especially by moonlight, not to say moonshine. Each new blunder of the progressive or prig becomes instantly a legend of immemorial antiquity for the snob. This is called the balance, or mutual check, in our Constitution.

    Illustrated London News (1924)
  • Live Free or Diet||

    Freddy Kruger

    I was with Dexter Morgan long before the first book ever came out. Shoot the fucker, take out the trash and have a nice day. Means there's no movie, but I never thought much of them anyway.

  • eyeroller||

    In other words, "Hooray for divided government."

    Harsanyi wants "Hooray for Republicans," which is ridiculous.

  • Hyperion||

    once on track to implement more wide-ranging reforms

    reforms? That's very laughable.

  • jolieena||

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  • eubes||

    Whatever they've done (or haven't done), they have parts of http://www.usdebtclock.org/ rolling backward...

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    But in the meantime, the minority is using every leverage point available to try to slow implementation. That is neither unprecedented nor unfathomable.

    Harsanyi hasn't gotten the reason memo. What the GOP is doing is pointless and stupid.

    They need to keep stumbling ass backwards into an eye-opening shutdown. The longer it continues the more people will be used to it, and the less essential non-essential federal services will seem.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    I'm wonder if the shutdown will become like the sequester. It's suppose to be a disaster, but what happens after it goes on for awhile and the media and public forget it was apocalyptic and go on with life?

    The repub's best strategy at this point might be to hide in the foxhole for a couple weeks and see if the Dems get desperate enough to pass the mini-bills.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The sequester is still a hot topic around here (though maybe less in the rest of the country).

  • Anonymous Coward||

    That's what will happen. If TEAM Red is willing to standfast against the Chicken Little ravings of TEAM Blue, then the same thing that happened with the sequestration will happen with the debt ceiling. They'll squeal, kick, scream, and cry. Meanwhile, life will go on unimpeded for those who don't draw a paycheck from the federal government.

  • Scotticus Finch||

    My business is paralyzed until the TTB reopens.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    How so?

  • Scotticus Finch||

    We develop flavors for spirits, then supply those flavor concentrates. Nothing new can legally go into production until TTB has approved it.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    If the law didn't require you to get a bureaucratic stamp in order to produce and sell flavor concentrates, you'd still be producing and selling?

  • Robert||

    This is what a lot of people don't realize: that fedgov can close down licensing while maintaining enforcement.

  • Scotticus Finch||

    Exactly. The stamp is on furlough, but the stick is on duty.

  • Scotticus Finch||

    I was just addressing this: life will go on unimpeded for those who don't draw a paycheck from the federal government.

    Of course I would prefer the stamp not be required in the first place.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    I was just addressing this: life will go on unimpeded for those who don't draw a paycheck from the federal government.

    Of course I would prefer the stamp not be required in the first place.

    Fair enough. I didn't address those caught in the regulatory rat maze.

    I assumed that if the bureaucratic stampers were furloughed long enough, financial pressure and customer demand would make you say "fuck it" and start up the machines again.

  • Robert||

    Enforcement's memory is infinite. It's like the FCC's being off the job doesn't mean you can cuss on the air, because when they're back they'll take complaints from people (even though they be shills) about what happened in the interim.

  • GregMax||

    You won't get there via the status quo. Prepare for more crap coming your way until it doesn't.

  • SomeGuy||

    Scotticus Finch|10.6.13 @ 6:22PM|#

    Exactly. The stamp is on furlough, but the stick is on duty.


    The day people wise up and relize stupid shit like flavors for booze is actually regulated the better. We need this to stop. I am "shocked" and not shocked that the flavors are regulated lol...how petty.

  • Marshall Gill||

    I am "shocked" and not shocked that the flavors are regulated lol...how petty.

    Petty?! We will see how you like it when you get lemon flavor in your pina colada instead of pineapple, mr. smart guy!

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -It's suppose to be a disaster, but what happens after it goes on for awhile and the media and public forget it was apocalyptic and go on with life?

    I do not see that happening as long as we have the GOP helping out by crying for teh children and wearing lab coats to remind us of the 'core mission of the federal government' involve in the NIH and bringing us weepy stories of brave Best Generation veterans on lifequests turned back from memorials.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    You're point being, I guess, that there's division in the repub party, and eventually, they'll fold under pressure from their own. Maybe. But watching the Sunday shows today doesn't convince me that's about to happen anytime soon. Boehner reconfirmed today that he's not bringing anything to the floor without a repub majority.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    My point is that if we hoped that people will realize that federal government non-essential programs like the NIH and parks are useless then it is unhelpful to have the GOP engaging in PR stunts trying to invoke how critically important they are.

  • SomeGuy||

    they need to focus on the pettiness of the Admin that they plan on spending more money to cause more trouble. The Vietnam memorial wall was closed...Seriously? It is a wall in the middle of a public sidewalk....how do you close that? That is like closing the side walk or a cross walk during a shut down -_- The fact they don't harp this is pathetic. The admin is giving them a damn gold mine!!!

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Will you stop mischaracterizing that episode?

  • epsilon given||

    I don't consider Republicans to be "angels" in this regard--they are still proving to be as Big-Government as they always were. Having said that, I didn't expect this blessed shutdown to get so far!

    And the irony. The Evil, child-hating Republicans are trying to get cancer treatments for children, while Harry Reid is on record saying "I don't care about children with cancer. We have 1100 people who might lose their homes because of this sequestration!" and Obama on record saying "if an employee stopped working and prevented the factory from producing, so that he could get his way in negotiations, he'd be fired!"

    Oh, the sweet, sweet irony!

    I don't know if the Republicans will win, or if we'll successfully defeat ObamaCare (and if ObamaCare proves to be so disastrous in these next couple of months, it's even remotely possible that it will be repealed by the hand of Obama himself), but I'm enjoying the irony while it lasts!

  • Robert||

    what happens after it goes on for awhile and the media and public forget it was apocalyptic


    The administration tightens the screws. They may yet get up the nerve to close US & Interstate hwys., even though they're under state admin. The "news" will blame it on the GOP.

  • Contrarian P||

    I don't think there's any way to close US highways given the resources the feds have. Most governors would probably balk since it'd be enormously popular with their constituents to keep them open. I wouldn't want to be the governor who closed the state roads.

  • SomeGuy||

    maybe thats what we need to get a revolution underway to bring this country back to its founding. There would be mass chaos if they tried that. I don't think they are that dumb...granted they did try to CLOSE the OCEAN -_-

  • Irish||

    Families were removing cones at the Badlands National Park and just driving right through.

    It's fun watching people willfully disregard the politicians' hissy fit.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    How can this happen, I thought there were all of these guards at all the entrances making the shutdowns more expensive than business as usual?

  • Redmanfms||

    Go Team BLUE defender, go!!!

    Off to the reasonable list with you Bo-Bo.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    No substantive reply, eh?

  • Redmanfms||

    Stupid is kinda hard to reply to in a substantive manner.

    Putting cones up on a scenic over look actually cost more money than simply leaving it open.

    But hey man, it's nice to see your mask slip all the way off.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Let us say you owned some enterprise with an open air aspect to it. Because of a temporary unavailability of funds you cannot operate it as usual (which includes cleaning and maintaining it). You would set up cones, no? It's a fairly small, one time cost, and you do not want people to use it while you are not maintaining it.

  • Redmanfms||

    How do you "operate" a slightly widened piece of pavement doofus?

    Look at the pictures BlueBo, they coned off the unpaved shoulder of the highway specifically to prevent people from stopping to take pictures of Rushmore.

  • wareagle||

    kinda like they stationed park rangers in front of the Pisgah Inn on the Blue Ridge Parkway. While leaving the Parkway Open. Only govt would purposely shut down a business that is leasing a govt building AND sending the govt tax monies.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    A lot of those concessionaires pay a percent of their sales to the park service - so closing them literally costs the park service money.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    Let us say you owned some enterprise with an open air aspect to it.

    But the government doesn't own it. The taxpayers do.

    So shut the fuck up.

  • SomeGuy||

    Ok lets say you own a sign on the side of a side walk....you could leave it there or pay someone to shew (sp? push) people away and tarp it. Or you could just let people walk paste it and continue on their way. Which one of these makes more sense? That is what they did with the Vietnam War memorial....it is a monument that is on the side of a sidewalk and has no one watching over it so instead they send a goon to push people away....real smart -_-

  • Marshall Gill||

    I thought there were all of these guards at all the entrances making the shutdowns

    Because if there are guards at one place they simply must be everywhere? It is OK to spend money on guards because it really doesn't cost anything? Should I now build and destroy my own strawman?

    And you expected a "substantive reply"? Funny stuff.

  • Irish||

    I don't know what his point is. There have been dozens of proven examples of guards kicking people off of property where they should have the right to be. The fact that there were no guards at one park in South Dakota means precisely nothing.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Unless you just really love federal parks, then the charge only makes sense if they are spending more money on guards to keep people out than they would spend on crews to clean up and repair the area from anything that would happen if it were left open.

  • Redmanfms||

    Unless you just really love federal parks, then the charge only makes sense if they are spending more money on guards to keep people out than they would spend on crews to clean up and repair the area from anything that would happen if it were left open.

    Which is exactly what has been happening.

    Stop being an obtuse jackass.

  • Irish||

    How much damage would occur from people looking at the Vietnam War Memorial?

    Literally any payment for guards will cost more than just leaving it open. During no other government shutdown in HISTORY have these monuments or parks been closed. Think about that. Never before in history.

    That seems to imply that it's unnecessary and is just a punitive measure to make people blame those mean old Rethuglicans when it's actually the bureaucratic apparatus run by Obama and the executive branch that is doing these things.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -How much damage would occur from people looking at the Vietnam War Memorial?

    If the people who come see it leave litter, and the cleaning crews are not there?

    -During no other government shutdown in HISTORY have these monuments or parks been closed.

    Who cares? We are libertarians, we do not want federally government run parks and memorials. Close 'em down, privatize them, and at the least the GOP can stop whining about how awful it is to have them closed down.

  • Careless||

    Little known fact about the Vietnam Memorial: it gets severely corroded if a discarded paper coffee cup sits around it for more than a few hours. So of course they had to close it off.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The real danger is from the Laotian street gangs who will spray-paint anything related to Vietnam if ever the fedgov averts its gaze.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    If the people who come see it leave litter, and the cleaning crews are not there?

    There was a cleaning crew stationed at the memorial 24/7? No wonder we have such a big deficit.

  • Irish||

    Because the Badlands National Park is in South Dakota and there aren't many federal agents wandering around the Dakota's who can purposefully shut things down.

    Honestly Bo, there have been dozens of examples of guards being placed at open air monuments that don't require any sort of police presence with the express goal of denying people entrance. It's not as if all of those stories are particularly hard to find.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Obama's dialed the crazy up to 11 but parks and libraries are always symbolically closed when government runs out of money to hurt the public.

    It called The Washington Monument Syndrome for a reason.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Parks and libraries are, from a libertarian perspective, quite 'non-essential' federal programs. Why should we care when they are closed?

  • VG Zaytsev||

    I don't but the general public does. And they rack pretty low on the hierarchy of government destruction.

    I'd be ecstatic government was slashed to only providing cops and courts, roads and parks and libraries.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Which is kind of ironic, since the National Phallus has been shut down since 2011 due to earthquake damage.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    How long before the FBI investigages them for counter revolutionay activities destroying public property or some such nonsense.

  • Tony||

    Why don't Republicans grow the balls to enact their radical antigovernment agenda when they have their man in the White House? Why do they always try to force Democrats to do their work for them?

    Could it be because small government in practice is incredibly unpopular, and they know that the democratic process will never give them what they want?

  • OldMexican||

    Re: Tony,

    Why don't Republicans grow the balls to enact their radical antigovernment agenda[...]


    The Republicans are pretty statists themselves, Tony. Stop deluding yourself with this Progressive vs Anarchist comedy.

    Could it be because small government in practice is incredibly unpopular,


    "In practice"? When was it practiced and where is your information that shows it was "incredibly unpopular"? Judging by the recent polling, people seem to believe there's too much government already.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Why don't Republicans grow the balls to enact their radical antigovernment agenda when they have their man in the White House?

    It is incredible, isn't it? 2001-09 was an aberration to the fools that think the GOP is for small government.

    As I have stated a hundred times the only time a semblance of Small Government is in force is with a Dem POTUS and GOP House.

  • Marshall Gill||

    As I have stated a hundred times the only time a semblance of Small Government is in force is with a Dem POTUS and GOP House.

    So you love what we have now and believe this is "a semblance of small government"? Gotcha.

  • ||

    "Why don't Republicans grow the balls to enact their radical antigovernment agenda when they have their man in the White House? Why do they always try to force Democrats to do their work for them?"

    I am writing down the date and time and saving this. Holy shit. I hardly know what to say. Tony actually asked a good question. I guess even a blind hog....

  • Irish||

    That would be a really good question to ask on some kind of a Republican blog.

    Maybe Tony could go do that.

  • wareagle||

    people elected a GOP majority in the House specifically because of Obamacare, so seems voters were happy to play the part of hte GOP's balls. Deal with it. That is also part of the democratic process.

  • Tony||

    And when they win the Senate and the presidency they can repeal the law. They obviously don't have the votes to do it now.

  • Contrarian P||

    I fail to see why you expect the Republicans to go along with a law they uniformly opposed and which was passed over their objections now that they control the House. They would have blocked it when it was passed if they could have. The democrats showed no interest at that time in taking republican ideas into account. Instead, they rammed a bill through that didn't even enjoy popular support at the time and has continued to be opposed by the public. Face it, your law sucks and democrat drones such as yourself are the only ones who don't seem to know it yet.

  • GregMax||

    My wife used to say "What's yours is ours. What's mine is mine." For Dems when they are in charge anyone who resists is a terrorist, when Reps are in charge Dems think they're noble crusaders for social justice.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    My wife used to say "What's yours is ours. What's mine is mine."

    Did you offer to share your fist with her face? Shit like that is why I'm never getting married. Well, that and the spastic colon.

  • Marshall Gill||

    Couldn't have anything to do with your glowing personality, could it?

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Why don't Republicans grow the balls to enact their radical antigovernment agenda when they have their man in the White House?

    They should definitely spin the NPS off into a corporate entity like they did the USPS to remove it as a football during shutdowns.

  • Long Range Boredom||

    It's almost like the Republicans aren't in favour of small government at all and their entire claim to it is lip-service.

  • Banjos||

    Say it ain't so, Joe, say it ain't so!

  • Mike M.||

    Harsanyi, as usual, has the best take I've seen here yet on the shutdown. He's consistently one of Reason's best contributors, right up there with Judge Napolitano and Stossel. Keep up the good work Dave!

  • Mike M.||

    I forgot to throw Tuccille in there ad well.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    I didn't like Harsanyi when he started contributing, but he's a good egg. Stossel's a good evangelist; I feel like I'm reading Libertarianism 101 whenever I read his column but he's solid. I like Matt quite a bit; he's generally good even when I disagree with him. Suderman's coverage of ObamaCare was good, but since then I haven't read anything compelling from him and he's a bit of a weak sister in some respects.

    Balko, however, is the absolute gold standard for me and the reason (drink!) I started reading Reason regularly in the first place. Informed, excellent advocacy journalism of the sort you rarely see -- and TBH, of the sort that isn't being done at Reason anymore, unfortunately.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I like Chip Bok's articles the most.

  • Brett L||

    This explains so much.

  • AlmightyJB||

    My wife said she heard Bob Schaffer this morning say that the solution to the problems is to oust Boehner.

  • Hollywood||

    I agree...and replace him with Amash.

  • Lady Bertrum||

    Who's going to oust him? A bunch of establishment types or the Amash faction? If you're a small government conservative or libertarian why would you care if some mediocre guy like Boehner were ousted?

  • Hollywood||

    You wouldn't most likely, unless it was one of the few genuine libertarian repubs, I've said on these very boards, Boehner is looking desperately for an excuse to capitulate and end this standoff.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    So when we have a problem with BO, we're told elections have consequences so shut up.

    When they have a problem with Boehner (who is probably the best Republican to have as speaker from their POV), we need to oust him.

  • DJF||

    I looked up the Wikipedia article on Schieffer and it had this

    “”””Schieffer is considered to be a model for lapdog journalists world-wide, and is well respected among Pentagon officials and public relations experts for his abilities at information contol.””’

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Schieffer

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -Schieffer is considered to be a model for lapdog journalists

    Well, he rolled over and showed his belly to Romney in that first debate, so I believe it.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Lehrer did the first debate, you incoherent jackal, and he did a fine job of moderation. That Caramel Nixon can't win a debate against a turnip is not the moderator's fault.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Yes, mea culpa, it was Lehrer who rolled over and let Romney interject at will and speak longer than Obama.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Little Bo Blue, come blow your horn.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    That's happened at every presidential debate for both the primary and general elections for at least 20 years. Candidates always break the rules and talk past the time limit.

    The Obamhorrhoids, such as yourself apparently, were just clutching for a reason to excuse his horrible showing.

    Romney's people had a far stronger case against the mods who allowed Biden to laugh over Paul Ryan when he was talking, and Candy Crowley flat-out lying about BO's post-Benghazi speech to make Romney look bad.

  • cavalier973||

    Was it this debate?

  • Nazdrakke||

    A lot of pretty words, Harsanyi, but when are you going to address the elephant in the room that is Nixon and Pakistan, huh? Dodging the pressing issues of the day is no way to gain credibility.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Well, Mr. Harsanyi, as someone with a Hungarian Jewish heritage, is obviously part of the same Zionist-Freemanson-Lizard People conspiracy that the brave Sheldon Richman tirelessly fights against, so that the day shall come when we no longer send young Americans to die on the battlefields of Pakistan and East Timor.

  • Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!||

    Ooooh, I might volunteer out of the Retire Reserve to go to East Timor!

    /Lizardman follower

  • Almanian!||

    Good points from David H.

    That is all.

  • ||

    KOCH CONSPIRACY!!!!

    The current budget brinkmanship is just the latest development in a well-financed, broad-based assault on the health law, Mr. Obama’s signature legislative initiative. Groups like Tea Party Patriots, Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks are all immersed in the fight, as is Club for Growth, a business-backed nonprofit organization. Some, like Generation Opportunity and Young Americans for Liberty, both aimed at young adults, are upstarts. Heritage Action is new, too, founded in 2010 to advance the policy prescriptions of its sister group, the Heritage Foundation.

    The billionaire Koch brothers, Charles and David, have been deeply involved with financing the overall effort. A group linked to the Kochs, Freedom Partners Chamber of Commerce, disbursed more than $200 million last year to nonprofit organizations involved in the fight. Included was $5 million to Generation Opportunity, which created a buzz last month with an Internet advertisement showing a menacing Uncle Sam figure popping up between a woman’s legs during a gynecological exam.

  • ||

    Choice comments:

    Jerry Schrader MDSalem,OR
    Majority rule is one of the mainstays of democracy and no minority is going to destroy this process of our governess. We are experiencing an attempt to takeover our government. Gerrymandered electoral districts and the Majority of the majority are not adequate to overthrow our government. We need to put down this attempted insurrection and punish the perpetrators. If we lose our influence in the world be reduced to the level of Uganda or worse.

  • DJF||

    Jerry Schrader MDSalem,OR is so stupid that he does not realize that if the US was a democracy with majority rule then that majority could rule to take everything he has and even execute him for whatever reason they wanted.

  • SweatingGin||

    Surely comrade Obama will put a stop to this trial as soon as he finds out about it.

  • DarrenM||

    I'm sure he'd send flowers.

  • Anomalous||

    Interesting misuse of the word "governess." Paging Dr. Freud!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Governesses are underrated sexually.

  • PapayaSF||

    Jeebus, I love it when Democrats complain about gerrymandering. Please, Lord, let them get their wish and have it eliminated. When they see the results, I will feast upon their tears of outrage.

  • John||

    They cannot ever admit that their shit might not be popular. It doesn't matter if there are five million people on the mall protesting. It is just Koch funded astroturf.

    This kind of shit is so destructive. It just convinces their idiot supporters that no other view but theirs is legitimate. This is what is making our political system so dysfunctional. You can't have compromise and a Republic when one side is convinced the other is illegitimate.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    What I think it interesting about the 'astroturf' charges is that just because a cause is 'well funded' or has 'resources' does not mean that people will turn out for it, unless they really are numerous and aggrieved.

    For instance, this recently occurred:

    -Sandy Rios predicted on her American Family Association radio show yesterday that "thousands" of "ex-gay" people would show up for an "Ex-Gay Pride" rally and press conference in Washington D.C. today.

    However, "thousands of ex-gays" did not descend on Washington D.C. today. Less than ten people showed up

    http://www.opposingviews.com/i.....ted-audio#

  • John||

    And leftist organizations like the Sierra Club are massively funded. Yet, the problem is always the other side has any funding.

    The left has given up all pretense of believing in a Democratic Republic. They are very clear that all other points of view have to legitimate place in the discussion. That is not going to end well.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    How quickly people forget George Soros and Moveon.org.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    And the thing is, most of those leftist orgs are essentially taxpayer funded, via the public sector unions.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    The Sierra Club is essentially taxpayer funded?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Soros is a taxpayer and he funds some liberal think tanks.

    See how GOP logic works?

  • Res ipsa loquitur||

    Shut up tool.

  • DarrenM||

    If a person works for the government and part of his salary or other compensation is diverted to a poltical organization against his or her wishes, I think it's fair to consider this public funding. The difference is just bookkeeping.

  • Brett L||

    Wait, the other side is also fighting for their preferred outcome? We must stop these kulaks and wreckers!

  • The Late P Brooks||

    I wish somebody would make an honest effort to explain just what Obamacare is and how it works, because based on what I hear from the serious punditocracy, I get the impression it's a magical cure for everything ailing American society.

  • Rich||

    Unfortunately, no one can be told what Obamacare is. You have to see it for yourself.

  • VG Zaytsev||


    Title I. Quality, Affordable Health Care for All Americans

    Title II. The Role of Public Programs

    Title III. Improving the Quality and Efficiency of Health Care

    Title IV. Prevention of Chronic Disease and Improving Public Health

    Title V. Health Care Workforce

    Title VI. Transparency and Program Integrity

    Title VII. Improving Access to Innovative Medical Therapies

    Title VIII. Community Living Assistance Services and Supports Act (CLASS Act)

    What's not to like about all that?

    (Oh you mean they're typical leftwing lies)

  • DarrenM||

    What's not to like about all that?

    The font?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    People are ignorant about Obamacare because of the lying wingnut 24/7 agitprop media machine.

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bil.....obamacare/

    And this is New York CITY just last week. The ignorance is stunning - but all right wing lies.

  • OldMexican||

    Re: Palin's Buttwipe,

    People are ignorant about Obamacare because of the lying wingnut 24/7 agitprop media machine.


    Yeah, blame the characteristically American disdain for current news on the "right wing" media.

  • Irish||

    I especially like that he uses New York City as the example.

    Yeah, clearly if people in New York are ignorant it's because of the right-wing media. Everyone knows how heavily Republican New York is.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    I made that a point.

    Where do "body (RFID) chips" or "death panels" or "Muslims are exempt" or "forced home inspections" come from?

    Only the right wing.

    Please counter with a lamestream media lie about the ACA?

  • OldMexican||

    Re: Palin's Buttwipe,

    Please counter with a lamestream media lie about the ACA?


    Well, for instance, continuing calling it "Affordable."

  • Ted S.||

    Please counter with a lamestream media lie about the ACA?

    That Chad Henderson obtained an insurance plan from the exchanges?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Henderson enrolled. No one will have a policy until Jan 1.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Henderson enrolled.

    No, he didn't. He set up a profile on the site and that was it.

  • PapayaSF||

    Please counter with a lamestream media lie about the ACA?

    That it could possibly work as advertised? That anything Obama ever said about it is even remotely true?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    If the ACA is so bad why do conservatives lie about it?

    Just tell the truth once - the individual mandate to coerce freeloaders into obtaining insurance is obnoxious.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    We wouldn't have a freeloader problem if it weren't for federal ER must-treat laws.

    Govt regulation "fixing" govt regulation, that's all the indie mandate is.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Someone who pays cash for healthcare services isn't a freeloader.

    But thanks for revealing your mendacity again.

  • Cascadian Ephor Xenocles||

    So if you offer someone a free ride and he takes it, do you bitch at him the whole time?

  • Smilin' Joe Fission||

    Yeah, the left has been nothing but honest when it comes to the ACA.

    Take your TEAM partisanship somewhere else.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Where do "body (RFID) chips" or "death panels" or "Muslims are exempt" or "forced home inspections" come from?

    Please state one liberal lie about the ACA.

    Progressives hate the ACA by the way. It relies on corporate insurance companies - the very (and only) reason I LIKE it. I feared single payer.

  • Redmanfms||

    Please state one liberal lie about the ACA.

    "If you like your insurance you can keep it."

    "The ACA will reduce costs and increase coverage."

    There's two lies.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Not lies. Over 99% of the country is keeping their insurer.

    A couple of companies are dropping their crappy "limited liability" plans because they are woefully under benefit minimums.

    Sorry, you stock clerk at Home Depot slogging around with an orange apron on lifting heavy materials for $10 an hour - your $5000 max benefit plan is being dropped. Obama lied to you - you are getting a better plan.

  • lap83||

    Oh that's right, he makes up his own facts. It's funny how often we forget.

  • Redmanfms||

    Not lies. Over 99% of the country is keeping their insurer.

    But not their plan.

    So, a lie.

    Obama lied to you - you are getting a better plan.

    Yeah, I feel so relieved that my premiums have increased 40% over the last 3 years because of ACA, but now my individual policy covering a male 32-year-old now covers nursing home care and birth control. Oh, and now my max out-of-pocket and deductible are higher. I feel so much better...

  • John||

    Over 99% of the country is keeping their insurer.

    LOL Remember Shreek isn't a KOS griefer. He just happens to constantly repeat their most ridiculous talking points.

    Greifer troll is griefing.

  • epsilon given||

    Yes, that's true, but if you liked that plan, it's gone!

    About a year ago, my family had such a plan, that we paid for ourselves, and we liked it a lot. It isn't clear if such a plan would be available for us again, if we needed it, and if it were, we'll likely be forced to pay fines because it isn't "government approved".

    Instead, we'll be forced to pay for a plan that has much higher premiums, assuming that we could afford such a plan. If not, we'll be without insurance *and* paying fines for being uninsured. Yea!

  • lap83||

    Here are a few more liberal lies about ACA:

    "If you don't like it you're racist"
    "If you don't like it you hate teh chilrunz"
    "If anything goes wrong with it, it's the Republicans fault"
    “I will not sign on to any health plan that adds to our deficits over the next decade.”- Obama in 2009 on at least three different occasions

  • wareagle||

    if you fear single payer, then you should totally hate ACA since its only real point is to bring about the conclusion you claim not to want.

    Death panels come from looking at socialized systems of medicine. Oh, none of those countries calls them death panels; that would be so inelegant. But denying certain treatments to specific groups of people has pretty much the same outcome.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    No. I have confidence in markets.

  • Contrarian P||

    What markets? The healthcare sector is the most tightly controlled portion of the economy, with the possible exception of the financial. If the government dictates what products may be sold, how, when, and at what price, there aren't markets in any real sense of the word.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    States have long done that via insurance commissioners.

  • Contrarian P||

    So you admit that markets don't exist, but you have confidence in them. The doublethink is strong in this one.

  • Res ipsa loquitur||

    It is a fucking moron. Just reading his shit removes all hope I have for this nation. Bravo Buttplug, bravo !

  • PapayaSF||

    States have long done that via insurance commissioners.

    And states have long contributed to rising health insurance costs.

  • DarrenM||

    But denying certain treatments to specific groups of people has pretty much the same outcome.

    Any scarce resource must be rationed. While the free market has it's issues (which we didn't work much on fixing), one of the main problems with the ACA is that these resources will probably be decreased thereby driving up prices. This is the opposite of what the ACA was advertised as doing, but I may have misunderstood the hype.

  • epsilon given||

    I would sincerely like to know what issues a free market medical and insurance system would have. Last I checked, we haven't had free-market health care for at least several decades.

  • Hollywood||

    It's FREE HEALTHCARE, or so I'm told.

    /low info voter

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Majority rule is one of the mainstays of democracy and no minority is going to destroy this process of our governess. We are experiencing an attempt to takeover our government. Gerrymandered electoral districts and the Majority of the majority are not adequate to overthrow our government. We need to put down this attempted insurrection and punish the perpetrators. If we lose our influence in the world be reduced to the level of Uganda or worse.

    An impressive array of talking points, densely packed into a single comment.

    MAJORITY RULE! I remember that from kindergarten. It works reasonably well when you're deciding whether to use red or green construction paper.

  • Tony||

    Do you even acknowledge that the government can do things that are legitimate but that you strongly disagree with?

  • VG Zaytsev||

    "Can" sure

    "Should" not so much.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    Do you even acknowledge that the government can do things that are legitimate but that you strongly disagree with?

    Do you even acknowledge that the government can do actively does things that are illegitimate but that you strongly disagree with that most of us don't even know about?

  • fish||

    Slurp.....mmmm...slurp slurp slurp....lick slurp lick....easy with the teeth....slurp slurp slurp.....

    Repeat until completion P h e a u n I x.....but you already knew that didn't you.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Jerry Schrader MDSalem,OR is so stupid that he does not realize that if the US was a democracy with majority rule then that majority could rule to take everything he has and even execute him for whatever reason they wanted.

    Or "negotiate" a standard pay rate for physicians of $36,000 per year.

  • DJF||

    I was thinking of not paying them at all and keeping them in barracks and feeding them in cafeterias. And if they refuse to work they will not be fined but instead taxed with a whip.

  • Marshall Gill||

    Penaltaxed with a whip.

  • Cascadian Ephor Xenocles||

    I thought the ACA had exactly a single vote from the minority.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    The GOPer from New Orleans, iirc. He won the crooked Dem Jefferson's seat in a special election.

  • Cascadian Ephor Xenocles||

    Lost the next one too, didn't he?

  • ||

    These are all New York Times editor's picks, comments endorsed by the Times:

    Susan MadrakPhiladelphia
    The right-wing agenda is of even greater breadth and depth than the Times describes. These puppetmasters don't want anything that empowers ordinary people. They want a borderline-indigent, compliant work force that's grateful for crumbs and an education system that turns out low-paid worker bees who are good with technology.

    That's right. The Kochs want educated people that know how to productively use technology. The monsters!

    What we see happening now --the "reasonable" rationales to cut Social Security and Medicare, the undermining of public education through privatizing -- are the efforts of these same people. If you follow the historical threads, they lead back to extremists of the John Birch Society (I wonder why the Times left out the fact that Fred Koch, the Koch brothers' father, was one of the founding members), who have funded efforts like this for more than forty years.

    I hate the John Birch Society! Hate 'em with a passion! The John Birch Society killed my father! Well, they hurt him badly, really hurt his feelings.

  • ||

    This isn't fantasy. These are well-funded, long-term plans. Most people don't have the time, inclination or stomach to plow through the historical underpinnings of these seemingly spontaneous "movements", but those of us who have are quite wary. The Kochs and their ilk are the ideological descendants of the same dark figures who attempted a corporate coup against Franklin Roosevelt.

    It CAN happen here.

    Which, as Dr. Jerry up above suggests, might require Obama to arrest the Tea Party and Kochs for treason. We need to destroy the Republic to save the Republic!

    And if we see a deal come out of this shutdown that includes plans to cut Social Security by using a less accurate measure of inflation, like the chained CPI both parties are pushing, they will have won again. Because destroying social programs is their ultimate goal.

    I count no day as lived until I have beaten an elderly person with my ivory cane and watched two low-income families fight to the death for my amusement.

  • Calidissident||

    These people honestly cannot comprehend how someone could disagree with them without being a paid shill of the Kochtopus or a brainwashed religious fundamentalist.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Schizophrenics gotta schizo, bro.

  • Killazontherun||

    You doubt that Susan Madrak, Vanguard of the Proletariat, speaks the voice of the People?

  • Irish||

    I just looked up stuff about the John Birch society and I found this:

    "For the civil rights movement in the United States, with all of its growing agitation and riots and bitterness, and insidious steps towards the appearance of a civil war, has not been infiltrated by the Communists, as you now frequently hear. It has been deliberately and almost wholly created by the Communists patiently building up to this present stage for more than forty years."

    - John Birch Society, 1965

    These are well-funded, long-term plans. Most people don't have the time, inclination or stomach to plow through the historical underpinnings of these seemingly spontaneous "movements", but those of us who have are quite wary. The Kochs and their ilk are the ideological descendants of the same dark figures who attempted a corporate coup against Franklin Roosevelt.

    -New York Times commenter, 2013

    The arguments advanced by the John Birch Society and the New York Times comment section are basically identical, provided you switch Communist for Koch and Civil Rights for Republican Party.

  • Boisfeuras||

    This isn't fantasy. These are well-funded, long-term plans. Most people don't have the time, inclination or stomach to plow through the historical underpinnings of these seemingly spontaneous "movements", but those of us who have are quite wary. The Kochs and their ilk are the ideological descendants of the same dark figures who attempted a corporate coup against Franklin Roosevelt.

    It CAN happen here.

    Except the so-called "Business Plot" was a hoax, and the only evidence of it ever produced were the fantastic claims of retired Marine general Smedley Butler. Butler was an outspoken anti-capitalist, so it strains credulity to think that a powerful Wall Street cabal would select him to lead their coup d'etat.

  • DarrenM||

    We need to destroy the Republic to save the Republic!

    Or at least to install a proper monarcy.

  • DarrenM||

    monarchy (sheesh)

  • Irish||

    (I wonder why the Times left out the fact that Fred Koch, the Koch brothers' father, was one of the founding members), who have funded efforts like this for more than forty years.

    Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that we were living in a hyper-primitive society in which the sons must be punished for their father's sins.

  • PapayaSF||

    And yet, the Times et al tells us that the fact that Obama's father was a Communist is entirely irrelevant.

  • DJF||

    John Birch Society turned me into a newt!

  • John||

    That is some epic projection. It is just epic how these people manage to be exactly who they claim their political opponents to be.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    So epic that William F. Buckley Jr. started it when he denounced the founder of the Birchers in the 'National Review'.

    Little good it did. WFB would have to denounce the entire GOP today.

  • John||

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weu-R_bgmU4

    CHRISTFAG!!!

    Don't your handlers ever give you a day off? Maybe to spend some time to learn the talking points so you wont' fuck them up?

  • VG Zaytsev||

    I think Shried is Chad from Georgia the guy that lied about being the first Obamacare enrollee - who's only source of income is OFA.

  • SIV||

    Wrong part of the state.

  • Marshall Gill||

    WFB would have to denounce the entire GOP today.

    Science, you really don't know what you don't know, do you? You, the classic liberal who worships Soros and hates Christianity, knows just exactly where the late WFB would stand?

    You have surpassed yourself yet again.

  • Irish||

    Well, WFB was the worst sort of Northeastern, statist Republican, so he probably would hate people like Rand Paul.

    It's funny that for years liberals used to tell me that I was supposed to hate the Republicans because they were all rich folk with ties to business interests, and now that the Republican party is actually moving away from that those same liberals yearn for the days when Republicans were Wall Street hacks.

  • Killazontherun||

    ^this.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    I'm a liberal and I like and admire most self-made rich people.

    Buffett, Gates, Soros, Brin, Page, Jobs, Ellison - all incredibly wealthy who don't despise the poor so much they want to take away their vote or make them vote on a single working day (Tuesday) to benefit the GOP.

  • Irish||

    Across North Carolina, thousands of people have been shocked in recent weeks to find out their health insurance plans will be canceled at the end of the year – and premiums for comparable coverage could increase sharply.

    One of them is George Schwab of Charlotte, who pays $228 a month for his family’s $10,000 deductible plan from Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina.

    In a Sept. 23 letter, Blue Cross notified him that his current plan doesn’t meet benefit requirements outlined in the Affordable Care Act and suggested a comparable plan for $1,208 a month – $980 more than he now pays.

    If those guys really liked poor people, they would have been advocating against the devastating effects of the ACA.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Read the link.

    BCBS of NC is trying to gouge its customers according to the article. None of the premium increases are due to the ACA it (the Observer)implies.

  • Contrarian P||

    Of course if insurance were sold across state lines with anyone who wants to free to enter the market to provide products people want at lower costs, you know, like happens in just about any other industry, Blue Cross couldn't gouge it's customers, now could they?

  • Contrarian P||

    Its customers.

  • DarrenM||

    who don't despise the poor so much

    They despise the poor, but not as much as the GOP. Got it.

  • Redmanfms||

    Uh, what happened to the "dissent is patriotic" meme? I mean they were peddling that line when literally nobody in the pundocracy were calling the few Dems who actually stood opposed to our intervention in Iraq "traitors" (though they apparently liked to imagine they were being called traitorous)...

    I know the answer, but Jeebus, these people are fucking creepy.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    The attempt to try to smear the Koch's by tying them to the 'sins of their father' is to be dismissed and is particularly ironic for a leftist to make.

    However, I have no use for the John Birch Society. Their anti-Semitism made Helen Thomas look like Theodor Herzl.

    And I have less use for the Koch's. I appreciate their early funding of libertarian causes, but when they attempted to take over major libertarian institutions to use them for shilling for 'Team Red' as it is referred to around here they lost my support forever.

  • Redmanfms||

    And I have less use for the Koch's. I appreciate their early funding of libertarian causes, but when they attempted to take over major libertarian institutions to use them for shilling for 'Team Red' as it is referred to around here they lost my support forever.

    If only they had shilled for Team BLUE, amirite!?!?

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    It is sad that our political culture is so debased that so many have to think it terms of Team Red or Blue.

    How about shilling for Team Libertarian?

  • Redmanfms||

    How about shilling for Team Libertarian?

    Yeah, that would be an interesting change of pace for you. Why don't you give it a try?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Team Libertarian has become the whiny bitch of Team Red.

    It is sad.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Are you a time traveller from 1962 Bo?

    You rail against the John Birch Society and SoCon Blue Laws - WTF??

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    It is sad that our political culture is so debased that so many have to think it terms of Team Red or Blue.

    You're the one who brought it up. You're really crossing the bright red line into troll territory.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    This is quite ironic since often when people here want to accuse me of trolling they call me new Tulpa.

    I brought up that I do not care for the Koch's since they wanted to turn Team Libertarian institutions into Team Red ones, yes.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    If anyone has evidence of me trolling I'd love to see it.

    I do have evidence of your trolling: the fact that you brought up a notion and then immediately denounced other people for going along with it.

  • sgs||

    "If anyone has evidence of me trolling I'd love to see it."

    There you go asshole.

  • Killazontherun||

    However, I have no use for the John Birch Society. Their anti-Semitism made Helen Thomas look like Theodor Herzl.

    You can relax, the Kommissar is dead. Consider his order to destroy the JBS rescinded.

  • Eric Bana||

    I feel much better now, Dave. Thanks.

  • ||

    Cops are special

    Then came the tweets pouring it on, one that read, “Cops are not special.”

    Yes they are special.

    These officers who were trapped breaking the law were indeed absolutely wrong. They should be held accountable.

    But why give all of law enforcement the same black eye? How about some balance, like mentioning the million officers throughout the land who on a typical day and without fanfare patrol our homes, businesses, streets and highways, all the while risking their lives for our sakes – and forget gratitude as they perform their duties in heroic silence.
    Each time an officer stops a car on a small road or a big highway his or her life is immediately in jeopardy. Anybody could be driving that car. Recently we saw a driver get out and start shooting, creating another case of officer down. This is no exception and too often the rule.

    Those of us who live comfy in our homes are blissfully unaware that for police officers, it is a jungle out there. It is war.
    When you are out on patrol it may as well be Afghanistan.
    Daily, cops face life and death split decisions that the rest of us know nothing about. That car weaving up ahead could be a man having a heart attack.
    Or it could be a terrorist.

    Shoot first, file paperwork later.

  • Cascadian Ephor Xenocles||

    Cops are indeed special. We give them power to do things we would generally not allow a typical citizen to do. As a result they must be held to higher standards and subjected to higher scrutiny.

  • John||

    How dare you hold then to any higher standard than the average person. This really sums up a lot about our current society and what has gone wrong. Everyone wants the recognition and the status but they refuse to accept the concomitant responsibility that comes with it. Yes, asshole, you get to arrest people and have a lot of authority. The price for that is that you are held to a higher standard than people who don't get such power. It is a bigger deal when you fuck up than it is when someone else does. That idea has been totally lost in this society. The attitude of cops is just one of the worst examples.

  • Irish||

    Exactly. Read some of the shit this guy argues:

    Those of us who live comfy in our homes are blissfully unaware that for police officers, it is a jungle out there. It is war.

    It's irrelevant to this idiot that cops are actually less likely to die in the line of duty than literally dozens of other jobs. Should I talk about how perfect and noble loggers or taxi drivers are? Both provide important services, and both are more likely to die on the job than a police officer.

    Furthermore, if cops are at war...who are they at war with? The totalitarian that wrote that piece would say 'criminals,' but cops run into citizens far more frequently than criminals. When you say cops are at war, what you're essentially arguing is that they're an occupying army and that we must behave like the citizens of a nation under invasion.

    It's a total inversion of the very concept of a free society.

  • John||

    Yes. They have reversed it. It used to be that people thought "I have a lot of power I should be held to a higher standard". Now they think "because I serve the public my flaws and mistakes and even criminality should be excused". It is infuriating.

  • ||

    Furthermore, if cops are at war...who are they at war with?

    Cops tend to view all citizens with suspicion and disdain. Which, again, is why police militarization is so terrifying as is the tendency of cops to refer to the rest of us as 'civilians', implicitly separating them from being counted among the people they ostensibly protect and serve.

    To quote Commander Adama:

    There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

  • DarrenM||

    One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people.

    One is trained to kill. The other is (supposed to be) trained to keep order. The more overlap you have, the more risk of conflating the two missions.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    It's also an inversion of the Peelian principles for policing. Here are some of them, for reference:

    Every police officer should be issued an identification number, to assure accountability for his actions.

    Whether the police are effective is not measured on the number of arrests, but on the lack of crime.

    Above all else, an effective authority figure knows trust and accountability are paramount. Hence, Peel's most often quoted principle that "The police are the public and the public are the police."
  • VG Zaytsev||

    That idea has been totally lost in this society. The attitude of cops is just one of the worst examples.

    I blame the heroic cop TV shows and movies, where the cop is in daily firefights and has to break the rules to catch the bad guys.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    That idea has been totally lost in this society. The attitude of cops is just one of the worst examples.

    I blame the heroic cop TV shows and movies, where the cop is in daily firefights and has to break the rules to catch the bad guys.

  • ||

    I'm more astounded that he compares patrolling America to patrolling Afghanistan. Sure, maybe you can make that hyperbolic comparison to certain neighborhoods of Chicago and Baltimore, but you think the average cop in America is in danger at every moment?

    Idiots like this are why militarized police are going to become the new normal.

  • Irish||

    Sure, maybe you can make that hyperbolic comparison to certain neighborhoods of Chicago and Baltimore, but you think the average cop in America is in danger at every moment?

    You can't even make that hyperbolic comparison in certain neighborhoods in Chicago. Most criminals don't want to kill a cop because they know all hell will be rained upon their neighborhood and it would be bad for business.

    Not many cops are murdered in Chicago. They're more likely to die in a car accident.

  • ||

    Yeah, it's always a bad idea to target cops and government officials.

    I just meant there are those neighborhoods with astounding rates of shootings that might seem like a war zone. But again, we are talking a few neighborhoods versus the entire United States of America.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I'm more astounded that he compares patrolling America to patrolling Afghanistan.

    Yet you have no problem with the chicken littles on this here blog talking about how America is a police state?

    A cop has a much higher likelihood of being shot during a traffic stop than the non-cop who's been stopped has. And yet we have people here acting like Americans have to live in fear of being shot by cops.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Having lived in a couple of police states, I have to agree. The US has a fairly well-behaved law enforcement, though certainly the attitude above being widespread enough among the police and the citizenry is highly characteristic of a police state.

  • Irish||

    A person is far more likely to have his rights violated by a police officer than that police officer is of being injured by a suspect.

    More importantly, police officers are often given unfair, preferential treatment by judges and the justice system that would never be given to a citizen. You have to take the double standard into account as well.

  • ||

    "Recently we saw a driver get out and start shooting, creating another case of officer down. This is no exception and too often the rule."

    How many traffic stops are made in a day across the country? How many result in "a driver getting out and start shooting"?

    Too often the rule? I dont think this person knows what 'the rule' is.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Each time an officer stops a car on a small road or a big highway his or her life is immediately in jeopardy. Anybody could be driving that car. Recently we saw a driver get out and start shooting, creating another case of officer down. This is no exception and too often the rule.

    Right. How many people were pulled over that day, and how many came out with guns blazing? What a bunch of lying pussies.

  • Brett L||

    This is no exception and too often the rule.

    So, someone doesn't own a dictionary?

  • John||

    Sure you risk your life. That is part of the fucking job. If you don't like that, get a different job.

  • Irish||

    Considering the number of jobs that are more dangerous than 'police officer,' I don't think most cops would want a different job.

    They might get hurt.

  • gaoxiaen||

    Or actually have to do some productive work.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    The cops are still using the North Hollywood Bank Robbery, an event that has yet to be duplicated in America, as "proof" that they are always "outgunned" and need military surplus and APCs.

  • Hyperion||

    Each time an officer stops a car on a small road or a big highway his or her life is immediately in jeopardy the lives of the citizens in the car and their pets are in jeopardy

    Fixed it.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    But why give all of law enforcement the same black eye?

    How many of their co-workers knew exactly what was going on, and did nothing about it?

    Laws only deserve repect if they are equally applied.

  • John||

    And the cops being scumbags are not responsible for giving the profession a black eye. No. It is the people who have the nerve to point that out.

  • Hillary's Clitdong||

    If you haven't taken a stroll, you should try it. Many of the DUmmies have pretty much embraced a populist military dictatorship under Comrade Obama, and are arguing that John Boehner (and Ted Cruz, for some reason) should be brought before a people's tribunal to face charges of treason. By the way, I'm not making this up or even exaggerating.

  • Hillary's Clitdong||

    "taken a stroll through DU"

    The squirrelz have gone out of control since the shutdown. OFF WITH THE HEAD OF THE KULAK WRECKER BOEHNER!"

  • Irish||

    Daily Kos is also in a fit of hysterics.

    Question Number Four: Why the fuck, if the government is fucking shut down and now nobody can take a nice fucking drive on the fucking Blue Ridge Parkway to see the fucking leaves change colors, or pick up their fucking WIC voucher for some fucking food, is John-fucking-idiot-Boehner still getting a fucking paycheck and not a fucking drink thrown in his weird fucking face?

    Because the government is purposefully shutting down things that shouldn't actually be shut down in order to try and punish you, but you are far too stupid and invested in your fuck-riddled rant to realize that you're being manipulated.

    I also like that he attacks Boehner for collecting a paycheck, but doesn't bother mentioning the fact that Barack Obama's golf course, which is on public land, is still open while people are being kicked out of their privately owned vacation homes.

    That seems more relevant than John Boehner's pay check.

  • John||

    I am not sure this will work out as the Dems intend. Yeah, this idiot is blaming Republicans. But he is still pissed off and angry at the government. That generally doesn't work out well for Progs.

  • Irish||

    Question Number Six: Why the fuck aren't these spoiled fucking asshole brats who we've given fucking jobs in the fucking embarrassment we still call the House of Representatives getting their fucking asses kicked in the fucking parking lot for all but shutting down fucking FEMA in the middle of fucking hurricane season?

    I like that this guy writes an article in which he calls other people spoiled brats in the midst of a psychotic rant that uses the word 'fuck' at least 100 times.

    Projection!

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -Projection!

    Considering the expletives and language regularly used on this site* (despite the host imploring us not to) I find this projection charge to be a boomerang of irony.

    * Not saying you, Irish.

  • Irish||

    Uh...there's a difference between using the f-word in a sentence and writing an entire article which uses the word fuck 5 times a sentence and does not contain a single coherent point.

    Swearing periodically is different from what this guy is doing. This guy is swearing the way I did when I was twelve, when all the pre-teens thought it was cool to throw fuck into every sentence regardless of whether it made any sense.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Do you think it would be hard to find such repetitive use of that kind of language here? We only need to find any thread with Tony or Palin's B*ttplug in it to demonstrate.

  • Irish||

    With the exception of Sevo calling Tony shithead every time he posts, I've never seen a post here that looked like the following:

    Question Number Nine: Why the fuck is anyone even fucking listening to fuckhead-whiney-ass Sarah-fucking-fake-patriot-Palin and her fucking dimwit greedy twin Michele-why-won't-she-fucking-go-away-Bachman and that fucking evil incarnate she-devil Ann-fucking-heartless-Coulter and their mean-as-fucking-Lucifer-himself cartoon friend Rush-fucking-crackhead-limp-dick-Limbaugh?

    ^ This incoherent. It's the ravings of a schizophrenic in a padded cell.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    I'll take this one. I admit that I swear on this blog, but usually its for the purposes of irony or emphasis.

    Carpet F-Bombing is just declasse.

  • Cascadian Ephor Xenocles||

    Yeah, overuse of profanity isn't offensive in any way other than stylistically. It's boring and it distracts from whatever substance you have.

  • SugarFree||

    Carpet F-Bombing is just declasse.

    Fuck you, you fucking fuckity-fuck. I-fucking-willfucking use "fucking" any fucking damn fuck time that fucking I fucking want. Go fuck a fuck, you fucking fuck.

    (Of course, I'm not writing a column for general consumption , pretending that I am objective, fair or sane.)

  • ||

    What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

  • Robert||

    the expletives and language regularly used on this site* (despite the host imploring us not to)


    "News, Views, and Abuse"

    Looks like encouragement to me.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic.

  • Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!||

    on-topic

    So you are departing then?

  • Irish||

    ^^^ Everyone should really read this Kos article. It's a great representation of how miserable progs are and will always be. This guy is hyperventilating and honestly seems like he is on the verge of killing himself, and he's doing it over the fact that 17% of Federal government spending has been shut down.

    There is no sense of proportion with partisans. Whatever the current battle is, that is the most important battle in the history of the world. It's a mentality that manages to turn a whishy washy RINO like Boehner into a mixture of Hitler and Attila the Hun.

  • John||

    Here is the difference. The worst Republican partisan is at least happy when his team wins. Progs are always miserable and pissed off. They were just as miserable the day after Obama won in 09 as they had been the last 8 years under Bush. Being angry and miserable is just who they are. It makes them bitter nasty losers and insufferable revenge minded winners.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    Indeed, I remember how when the GOP had the Presidency, the House and the Senate, Rush Limbaugh and others of his ilk signed off his show because of a lack of things to be angry about and National Review and related conservative journals of opinion closed up shop until the next Democratic takeover.

  • John||

    Yeah, the Republicans started attacking each other. And even if they stayed on the air. That doesn't say if they were happy or pissed off.

  • epsilon given||

    Yeah, because when Republicans are in power, the Democrats roll over and do whatever the Repubicans want them to do, like the Democrats are expecting the Republicans to do right now. Oh, wait, I'm mistaken: Democrats do everything they can to stop the Republicans when they are in power, no matter what, because DISSENT (unless you're in power, then dissent is traitorous and resorting to terrorist tactics).

    (For the record, I've listened to Rush Limbaugh off and on over the years. To characterize him as angry is ridiculous, even when Democrats were in power. This isn't to say that anger is nonexistent on the right, or even on Limbaugh's show...but I would propose that people who try to live their lives as they see fit, and pursue their own happiness, as a rule, are going to be happier than those who expect government to rescue them from their misery...and that Progs are thus generally going to be more miserable regardless of who's in power, while Libs and some Conservatives are generally going to be happy, regardless of who's in power.)

  • Hyperion||

    That old saying 'misery loves company' is very well suited to that situation also. They would rather all of us be dirt poor and miserable as hell, as for themselves to be relatively affluent, if even one person is even a little bit better off than they are. This is why the want a dictatorship in which everyone is equally impoverished and miserable.

  • John||

    See the quote from Irish below about health insurance. If they can't have single payer, then they want to make sure no one can have health insurance. They are just evil.

  • Robert||

    The worst Republican partisan is at least happy when his team wins. Progs are always miserable and pissed off.


    That's not a personality difference, that's a recognition of the fact that the world is fairly close to the way the partisans of any major party in any country want it, but extremely far away from the way progs want it. Limbaugh even used the slogan after the 1994 elections, "America: the way it ought to be".

  • Skip||

    You are so right. After Kerry lost, I still remember how pissed off they were. They wanted to secede more than any Texan citizen in 08 or 12.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -Because the government is purposefully shutting down things that shouldn't actually be shut down in order to try and punish you,

    What should the government have shut down? In my libertopia, massive government run vacation spots would be pretty low on the list of 'core government functions.'

  • Redmanfms||

    What should the government have shut down? In my libertopia, massive government run vacation spots would be pretty low on the list of 'core government functions.'

    And in the rational world, putting up barricades on open-air monuments and coning off scenic views is being a petulant dick to make people suffer and actually costs money. It's not that your guy is closing parks, it's that he is spending money to do so while arguing that it's because of the shutdown.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    My guy? I hope the result of this is the end of Obamacare.

    But I, like Reason said in a recent post, can find nothing for libertarians to celebrate when the GOP and its apologists are reduced to PR stunts and tear jerking missives about how the horrors of shutting down of the NIH, NPS and other 'core missions of the federal government.'

    -he is spending money to do so while arguing that it's because of the shutdown.

    How much of that is unsure. As Irish notes above, the stories of all the parks having more guards than the usual staff present seems not absolutely true.

    Parks are low on any libertarian list of essential functions. Putting cones around them seems fine to me (if the crews which have to clean them and such are not working it makes sense), I wish they would privatize them and put up a gate to charge admission.

  • Redmanfms||

    But I, like Reason said in a recent post, can find nothing for libertarians to celebrate when the GOP and its apologists are reduced to PR stunts and tear jerking missives about how the horrors of shutting down of the NIH, NPS and other 'core missions of the federal government.'

    Oh, so you go all libertarian idealist when Republicans start politicking...

    And you wonder why you're considered a Team BLUE flack....

    How much of that is unsure. As Irish notes above, the stories of all the parks having more guards than the usual staff present seems not absolutely true.

    That's no what Irish noted.

    So now you're falling back to outright lying.

  • Irish||

    It's not that ALL parks have more guards than usual, it's that MANY parks have more guards than usual. I don't know why Bo is even arguing over this.

    The fact that a park in South Dakota does not have a bunch of guards wandering around in no has any impact on the fact that John Ondrasik was pushed out of the Jefferson Memorial by an armed security guard. It doesn't change the fact that security guards showed up to kick Vietnam vets out of the Vietnam memorial.

  • Redmanfms||

    I don't know why Bo is even arguing over this.

    I have a pretty good idea why.

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    That is my point Irish, it is not all parks.

    Where the administration is putting up guards whose pay is in excess of what the cleaning and maintenance crews who are sent home would be, then the administration is playing a petty game to be criticized (and I have said so, repeatedly).

    But where they have simply shut off access to parks that they are not going to maintain, libertarians should not join Republicans in shedding crocodile tears about how this 'core mission of the federal government' has been thwarted by mean ol' Obama. It is silly.

  • Robert||

    I'm sure that for all the smaller parks, the guards cost more than the maintenance crews. Maintenance might be some people making the rounds of a bunch of parks daily or weekly, while guards would have to be stationed continuously, day & night, or the whole point of guarding them would be void. For a really big park covering many square miles with various popular sites within but few entrances, it might be as cheap to station guards at the gates as to work the interior with maintenance, lifeguards, etc.; but then, the big parks have staff at the gates and fire rangers anyway, don't they?

    What's it going to cost to enforce the ban on licensed guided fishing tours off the southern tip of Fla. and inside the Keys compared to...I guess nothing during normal business? We already know it's a net loss to close the franchised and leased facilities like that colonial re-creation farm and the Blue Ridge concessions that do all their own upkeep & security.

  • epsilon given||

    When Obama is closing private enterprise and kicking people out of their homes, just because those enterprises and homes happen to be on public lands, however, the libertarian in me gets a touch angry.

    There's no reason for the Federal Government to do such acts, except to be petulant, and to try to gin up anger against their political opponents.

    And to a certain degree, this is *exactly* the issue behind closing off things like scenic views (I've seen a few in my day, and those turnoffs typically don't have trash cans, and it isn't unusual for volunteers to clean up any litter).

  • prolefeed||

    I wish they would privatize them and put up a gate to charge admission.

    Ummm, the Blue Ridge Parkway the Kos guy is ranting about has a gate and charges admission (at least for the Shenandoah Natl Park portion).

    Shutting down that park is entirely dickish, since it presumably more or less pays for itself from entrance fees.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Daily Kos is to Democrats what Stormfront is to the GOP - only representative of its respective extremist element.

  • John||

    Daily Kos employs your handlers and feeds you your talking point dipshit. You are Daily Kos. Stop biting the hand that feeds you and pays for the box you live in.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Yeah, I am sure Daily Kos would like me comparing them to Stormfront.

    Idiot.

  • John||

    Yes retard, we know the act. You are a griefer troll. That means you claim to be not really a Kos asshole while constantly posting their talking points. That is what griefing is.

    You really think we are as retarded as you are don't you?

  • Mint Berry Crunch||

    So if Daily Kos held some kind of convention, prominent Democrats would be about as likely to show up at that as notable Republicans would be to attend a Stormfront gathering?

  • Irish||

    The wing of the Democratic party represented by the Daily Kos is far larger than white supremacist Republicans.

    It's not even comparable. There are 10-20 million Democrats who would probably nod their heads appreciatively to the ravings of the Kos Kids.

    I'd say that Kos is more like the Democrat's Free Republic.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    The freepers are a tamer breed of partisan than the KosKiddies. They're more likely to "ZOT" (freeper parlance for the banhammer) you for saying mean things about the Pope than for holding less-than-conservative political opinions.

  • Irish||

    Hey PB, did you know that Nancy Pelosi is scheduled to speak at Netroots Nation, a convention started by Daily Kos writers?

    Call me when Boehner shows up at a pro-Stormfront convention.

  • Marshall Gill||

    Yeah, I am sure Daily Kos would like me comparing them to Stormfront.

    But you didn't do that. The Kos kids would happily call themselves the extremists of the Left. The GOP are hardly, except perhaps in your twisted mind, the mainstream for which Stormfront is the extreme.

    I wouldn't say you are on the Kos payroll, but you should be considering how much you spew the same garbage.

  • Robert||

    But Stormfront by & large reviles the GOP, while Daily Kos think they have at least some affinity & influence with the Democrats.

  • gaoxiaen||

    You forgot to mention Hitler.

  • Robert||

    Is he going to get upset?

  • Anonymous Coward||

    bluedeathray (335 posts) Sun Oct 6, 2013, 11:39 AM

    Remind me again what the differences are between a terrorist attack
    And the actions of Cruz and Boehner?

    Wreckers! Kulaks! Counterrevolutionaries!

  • ludovikazaleskas||

    up to I saw the check saying $4560, I didnt believe ...that...my cousin could truley bringing in money part time on their laptop.. there uncle started doing this for only about 16 months and recently took care of the mortgage on there apartment and bought a top of the range Aston Martin DB5. visit this site
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  • jolieena||

    hy

  • ludovikazaleskas||

    up to I saw the check saying $4560, I didnt believe ...that...my cousin could truley bringing in money part time on their laptop.. there uncle started doing this for only about 16 months and recently took care of the mortgage on there apartment and bought a top of the range Aston Martin DB5. visit this site
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  • OldMexican||

    I would believe what you say if I only knew what is a "truley."

  • Irish||

    God, Kos is going completely insane.

    THE ACA IS A ROARING SUCCESS!

    They never ran on fixing government--they ran on killing it. They did not run on more accountability--they ran on destroying what may be one of the most popular programs in recent history.

    He thinks Obamacare is one of the most popular programs in recent history. He should probably look at some poll numbers.

    He also positively quotes an article in Philly Mag that says the following nonsense:

    Whether it is a matter of profit or survival is irrelevant: Shifting health expenses onto other firms is an unsustainable option. The employer health-insurance system will ultimately collapse, and the end result will be either no health insurance - and a failed health-care system - or a fully government-run program.

    Politicians too often use simplistic arguments to make their points, and the ACA being a job-killer is clearly one. But corporations should stop blaming the government for actions being taken for competitive reasons.

    This is insanity. Corporations HAVE to be competitive or else we'd have a cartel. When the government distorts that competition, you get all sorts of negative outcomes.

    These people are crazy. They honestly seem to be arguing in favor of monopolies now.

  • John||

    What competitive reasons? Who is the government competing against? Is it just me are are they going full on blood and soil nationalism here?

  • OldMexican||

    Re: John,

    What competitive reasons?


    Why, making insurance companies compete, of course, because otherwise they would not do it!

  • Irish||

    The far left has become a fascist movement.

    Look at this:

    The employer health-insurance system will ultimately collapse, and the end result will be either no health insurance - and a failed health-care system - or a fully government-run program.

    Really? So if we have no employer health-insurance, no one would have health insurance? This would probably be a shock to all the people who pay for their own health insurance.

    They are fascists. They cannot comprehend a solution that does not expand the power of the central government.

    All of their claims to want to help people are lies. If they wanted to help people, then you would expect them to periodically advocate non-government solutions. They never do. This is because it's all about the unthinking worship of government power and state force totally without regard for consequences.

  • John||

    They are perfectly willing to leave the entire country without health insurance if they are unwilling to be a part of the collective.

    The progs are now in full punitive mode. It is just like Obama doing all of this crazy stuff at the Mall. He is actively trying to punish the American public for having the nerve to resist Obamacare. They have totally embraced the idea that anyone who doesn't do what they are told is to be punished. Right now the punishments are mild. But there is little question they are ready to make them more severe.

  • Robert||

    Whew. For a sec I read, "Obama doing all of this crazy stuff at the Mall" as referring to the shopping mall in Nairobi.

  • Tony||

    Without Medicare, millions of old people would simply not have access to healthcare.

    Is your standard response to this claim a) Yes they would, because unicorns! or b) fuck those freeloaders, let them die! ?

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Without Medicare, millions of old people would simply not have access to healthcare.

    And where does the money for Medicare come from? Unicorns?

  • John||

    Horseshit Tony. Most of the people on medicare have their own insurance as a supplement. Moreover, people had plenty of access to healthcare before medicare. US life expectancy grew at a faster rate before medicare than it did after medicare. No one was dying without healthcare before medicare. Indeed, when Goldwater objected to medicare because he said it would balloon and bankrupt the country, the liberal response was that only a few older people needed it and that wasn't a valid fear. Now fifty years later, those liberals retarded intellectual children like you are claiming millions would die without medicare.

    Tony you are so fucking stupid and misinformed, you are hopeless. You don't know enough about reality to even begin to explain it to you.

  • Tony||

    Except for the fact that nothing you said is remotely true, you're right!

  • Contrarian P||

    Way to handle his arguments with your usual complete lack of, well, anything. I am quite interested in your evidence that old people were dying in the streets prior to Medicare being enacted. Go ahead, we're waiting.

  • Irish||

    Tony, do you think it's fair for a young person waiting tables to see his health insurance bill jump $200 a month, a fact which will make it impossible for him to save money and will likely result in his impoverishment later in life, so that a 61 year old former business owner with a paid off house and a lifetime of savings can have lower health care costs that allow him to stay in a nicer hotel the next time he goes to Aruba?

    If so, why?

  • Bo Cara Esq.||

    -Tony, do you think it's fair for a young person waiting tables to see his health insurance bill jump $200 a month, a fact which will make it impossible for him to save money and will likely result in his impoverishment later in life, so that a 61 year old former business owner with a paid off house and a lifetime of savings can have lower health care costs that allow him to stay in a nicer hotel the next time he goes to Aruba?

    I would also like to see Tony answer this.

    Also, if you have time Tony, how about those UPS employees whose spouses will be kicked off of their 'too generous' plans? These are working people, union members even, who have worked and bargained for excellent benefits in return for their services, and Obamacare is saying, 'no, you have way too good of a deal, we are going to prohibitively tax that.' How can you defend that?

  • Long Range Boredom||

    Seriously, this is the question that should be asked to the ACA's supporters in general.

  • Tony||

    So it's unicorns huh?

  • Contrarian P||

    Yes, asking you for a straight answer to a straightforward question is sort of like wishing to ride one.

  • ||

    I am 31 years old and wait tables for a living. I've been able to get medically underwritten plans for less than $75 a month, and the lowest available plan in 2014 is $170.

    I work 28 hours a week, and thus do not qualify for my employer's (even more expensive) health plan.

    Does that make me a unicorn?

  • Snark Plissken||

    No, it makes you a fucking lohoooooohoohooser!

    How's the screenplay coming?

    winky smiley face

  • OldMexican||

    Re: Tony,

    Without Medicare, millions of old people would simply not have access to healthcare.


    Without Medicare, doctors would not exist! The sun would not come up every day! Dogs and cats would have sex with each other!

    This is a competition on unsubstantiated assertions, is it not?

  • Robert||

    I assumed that with people keeping pet dogs & cats, they probably did have sex with each other—the dogs with the cats, I mean.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Without Medicare, millions of old people would simply not have access to healthcare.

    Sure they would--and it would be a lot cheaper, too.

    We're spending over $1 trillion a year now on Medicare/Medicaid. That's over 25% of all federal outlays, and it's certainly more than the revenues being brought in to cover it. These programs were passed partly on the argument that they would make healthcare costs as a whole go down, and they've failed miserably.

  • Tony||

    Medicare contains costs much better than the private system. You have to compare the current situation to one without Medicare.

    We could spend less public money on old people's healthcare. But there would be a lot of old people not getting healthcare. That shouldn't be a controversial statement.

    All I want is for libertarians to say they think it's a better society when we let the elderly poor die because they can't get health insurance because of the tax savings. Just be honest. Stop with the unicorn crap.

  • Brian||

    You know, Tony, there are civilized countries without medicare. The elderly aren't lining up to die.

    Go drama queen much?

  • Tony||

    What civilized country doesn't have guaranteed healthcare for the old (and everyone else for that matter)?

  • Winston||

    The far left has become is a fascist movement.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    If they wanted to help people, then you would expect them to periodically advocate non-government solutions. They never do.

    Their government solutions are all about control over helping people. They could easily create a program that gave free care to the indigent or mailed them a check. Instead their help always includes 40 page applications and comes with tons of strings.

  • DarrenM||

    The far left has become a fascist movement.

    If people would understand what fascism actually is without the racial superiority policies injected by the Nazis, they would see how true this is.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    It's not even one of the most popular medical reforms in recent history. MediCare Pt D passed during the last administration and is significantly more popular.

  • Hyperion||

    Question Number Four: Why the fuck, if the government is fucking shut down and now nobody can take a nice fucking drive on the fucking Blue Ridge Parkway to see the fucking leaves change colors, or pick up their fucking WIC voucher for some fucking food, is John-fucking-idiot-Boehner still getting a fucking paycheck and not a fucking drink thrown in his weird fucking face?

    I would be willing to wager a fair amount that this whiney little dick has never driven on the Blue Ridge Parkway in his life, and didn't even know what it was until this shut down. But I also would wager that he's very well aquainted with WIC vouchers.

    Proggies are pathetic, and also chronic liars.

  • Hollywood||

    I was at Costco today and at the check out line in front of me was a couple, not exactly malnourished, their bill came to $400 plus. That's when they pulled out the EBT. But hey, at least they are buying in bulk.

  • Ted S.||

    They probably are malnourished, having gotten fat off of carb-loading.

  • Killazontherun||

    Reminds me. I'm gonna make some meatballs later tonight. Pork prices have always been reasonable here in Carolina but oddly, lamb chops are cheaper per lb. this week at my store. Got the butcher to ground a couple of slabs after explaining my intentions. Can't wait to taste the results.

  • Robert||

    That's depressing, turning lamb chops rather than some less-interesting-when-broiled part of lamb into meatballs. I guess you're saying the chops were temporarily actually cheaper than ground lamb.

  • Robert||

    My favorite meat once my teeth erupted was lamb chops. I may have been influenced by my little toy lamb and by Shari Lewis's puppet. I never did mind eating parts of cute animals, even ones that talked with suitable ventriloquism. I haven't been able to afford them often since I too have been using EBT.

    However, reading of what you're doing is not as bad as my recent betrayal by one of my other since-I-could-chew favorite foods, corn on the cob. The hulls now turn to a big hard stool. Same with popcorn.

    Et tu, carrots? I hope not.

    Of course the big betrayal was by food, or my appetite, in general. I'm obese and a heart patient.

  • Killazontherun||

    Yup, exactly right. I'd be loathed to experiment with a good lamb chop like this except the price is just right. 1 lb of ground sirloin, 1 lb of ground lamb chop, 1 egg, 1 jalapeno, 1 green pepper, vinegar. Stewed in a sauce made from homemade wine, heavy cream and butter. If your doctor is conventional, he'll put a restraining order on you.

  • Robert||

    Do you brown them 1st, or just directly into the stew?

  • Killazontherun||

    I bake them in the stove on low for an hour before putting them in the Dutch oven.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Since we're working a psuedo-invasion angle, here's some more spirited, intelligent discourse from DUmmieland:

    Sat Oct 5, 2013, 08:46 PM
    Maraya1969 (10,314 posts)

    OK someone just posted on FB that for a family of 4 the AHA policy is $540/month with a $2,600 deductible. I said they were wrong right off the bat because I just know that can't be true. But does anyone know what the deductible is for a family of 4? Or for each person if they are paying the full amount?


    You're a liar! I don't know how you're a liar, but you are because Barry would never lie to me!

    Sun Oct 6, 2013, 02:34 PM
    99th_Monkey (9,159 posts)

    Why are Guv-mint HATERS even allowed to run for guv-mint office in the first place?

    You know who else wanted to throw people out of government for insufficient loyalty to the government? Tailgunner Joe! That's right! How many names are on your "Red List", patriotic America Monkey?

  • Banjos||

    Twice on my Facebook, there was a group of progs talking about how much better their lives were going to be after they sign up for ACA, how great and glorious it was and rants about those damn evul hateful Rethuglicans, etc., etc. And someone (different people) at the bottom of the threads asks "Have any of you actually signed up yet and what does it cost?" *crickets*

  • The Late P Brooks||

    These people are crazy. They honestly seem to be arguing in favor of monopolies now.

    They fetishize vast centralized organizations. Having the Veterans Administration in charge of every single health care transaction in America would be Nirvana for them.

    And black market doctoring would be prosecuted as aggressively as heroin trafficking.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    We shall have order! Perfect order! Endless order! Order! Stability! High-speed choo-choos that run on time!

    Utopia! For Utopia! Death to the Kulak, the Wrecker, the Counterrevolutionary!

  • The Late P Brooks||

    I said they were wrong right off the bat because I just know that can't be true.

    Yup.

    It's all free. Free, unlimited health care; that's what I was promised, and that's what I demand.

  • Fatty Bolger||

    Rushmore blockage stirs anger in S.D.

    Blocking access to trails and programs at South Dakota’s most popular attraction was one thing, but state officials didn’t expect Congress’ budget stalemate to shut down a view of Mount Rushmore.

    The National Park Service placed cones along highway viewing areas outside Mount Rushmore this week, barring visitors from pulling over and taking pictures of the famed monument.

    The cones first went up Oct. 1, said Dusty Johnson, Gov. Dennis Daugaard’s chief of staff. The state asked that they be taken down, and federal officials did so with some of them. The state was told the cones were a safety precaution to help channel cars into viewing areas rather than to bar their entrance.

    “I think reasonable people can disagree about that,” Johnson said.

    What's next? We're almost beyond parody now.

  • John||

    If this goes on, how long before they have a serious civil disobedience on their hands? One of the many problems with Obama is that he apparently doesn't seem to understand that tearing the system down is great if you are a community organizer but really stupid if you are in charge. Alynsky tactics only work if you are not in charge or responsible for anything. Obama doesn't seem to get that.

  • Marshall Gill||

    Alynsky tactics only work if you are not in charge or responsible for anything. Obama doesn't seem to get that.

    Sure he does. He just knows that a majority of voters will never hold him responsible for anything bad that he does.

  • John||

    Sure. But they might hold the rest of his party responsible for such. And beyond that, the damage he is doing is something Presidents are supposed to avoid.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I think BO knows that they're almost certainly losing the Senate in 2014. The map is pretty tough for the Blues, their base is not motivated, and the GOP is not going to tolerate any Akins or Murdochs next time around.

    He also knows that the presidential election is getting tougher and tougher for the GOP to win.

    So, he may as well have fun with the machinery of the state while he has it.

  • ||

    I'm surprised they don't start a fire so the smoke screen prevents people from looking at Mount Rushmore without Obama's permission.

  • Ayn Random Variation||

    I am very amused by all of this. It's like watching my little nephew throw a tantrum cause he wants a cookie.
    It almost makes me forget about how terrible the Giants are.

  • Rich||

  • Robert||

    Didn't King Canute show them...?

  • gaoxiaen||

    It would be nice to be one of the first fisherman back in. I'd probably pay a higher price for that.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    The National Park Service placed cones along highway viewing areas outside Mount Rushmore this week, barring visitors from pulling over and taking pictures of the famed monument.

    Fucking awesome.

    The new head of the Department of the Interior should be proud of herself. Maybe David Gregory will invite her to be a guest on Meet the Press next week.

  • ||

    9 year old boy stowaways on flight to Las Vegas, penetrates 3 levels of security

    Pat Hogan, spokesperson for the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport (MSP), confirmed the incident to KARE, but says it wasn't the result of an airport shortcoming.

    "At this point, this is a Delta and TSA issue," Hogan tells KARE. "This is a rare incident."

    MSP officials say they've reviewed security footage and at this point do not believe he was carrying a boarding pass.

    In a statement to KARE, Delta says: "We are investigating the incident and cooperating with the agencies involved."

    The boy is believed to be a runaway from the Twin Cities area, according to KARE's report. And it apparently wasn't the boy's first misadventure at the airport.

    "MSP officials say he took someone's luggage off a carousel (on Wednesday), ordered food at a pre-security restaurant, asked the server to watch his luggage while he went to the restroom, but never returned," KARE says in its report.

    Terry Trippler, an air travel expert with ThePlaneRules.com, tells KARE that it shouldn't have been easy for the boy to make it the whole through the airport and onto the flight as a stowaway.

    "He had to pass three levels of security," Trippler says. "You have the TSA, the gate agents, and the flight crew and a child comes through without even a seat assignment."

  • DK||

    He had to pass three levels of security," Trippler says. "You have the TSA, the gate agents, and the flight crew and a child comes through without even a seat assignment.

    So, the first two levels are freebies?

  • Ted S.||

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Pat Hogan, spokesperson for the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport (MSP), confirmed the incident to KARE, but says it wasn't the result of an airport shortcoming.

    "At this point, this is a Delta and TSA issue," Hogan tells KARE. "This is a rare incident."

    Responsibility was denied.

    Blame was deflected.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Masks are slipping:

    Sun Oct 6, 2013, 02:32 PM
    demsin06 (30 posts)

    Emergency Powers of the President?

    I take Speaker Boehner's words today as tantamount to a declaration of a constitutional crisis. The Republican Party is determined to wage a war of insurrection against the duly elected executive of the United States of America.

    What powers does the President have to end this charade, call for new elections, and lock up the ringleaders of this cabal and their corporate Koch masters until they can be tried by a military tribunal?

    ....Breath......OK, now that I said that, I feel better! Even though I know were are not there yet, this is how I feel right now. I'm going go sip on some tea and hope for a better tomorrow. I hope cooler heads prevail, but make no mistake, there will be a reckoning for this.

    demsin06 (30 posts)
    5. Well there is 18 USC § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

    This section has a lot of meat in it, and I would think if the SHTF, he could call a recess under his emergency powers. The PATRIOT ACT could be used as well if he wanted to go after the ringleaders as economic Terrorists.

    PragmaticLiberal (426 posts)
    18. There's a part of me that would like to see Obama go all "Chancellor Palpatine" on their asses.
  • ||

    A war of insurrection against the duly elected executive? He's not their boss and Congress is a co-equal branch.

    They really want to see a fascist state arise.

  • Irish||

    I take Speaker Boehner's words today as tantamount to a declaration of a constitutional crisis. The Republican Party is determined to wage a war of insurrection against the duly elected executive of the United States of America.

    What powers does the President have to end this charade, call for new elections, and lock up the ringleaders of this cabal and their corporate Koch masters until they can be tried by a military tribunal?

    -Democratic Underground, 2013

    "Could Eisenhower really be simply a smart politician, entirely without principles and hungry for glory, who is only the tool of the Communists? The answer is yes." "With regard to ... Eisenhower, it is difficult to avoid raising the question of deliberate treason."

    - John Birch Society, 1950's.

    Man, comparing quotes from the John Birch Society to modern liberal paranoia is way more fun than it should be.

  • Long Range Boredom||

    'Dissent is patriotic'. Remember that?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    And here I thought waxing ecstatic about "SHTF" was the sole province of antisocial gun nuts?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    What powers does the President have to end this charade, call for new elections, and lock up the ringleaders of this cabal and their corporate Koch masters until they can be tried by a military tribunal?

    I'll say, "none."

  • Mike M.||

    Shit game for the golden boy Mister Gisele Bundchen today. I look forward to seeing who all his media sycophants blame this one on.

  • Mike M.||

    And the best part is it snaps his streak of games with a touchdown pass. He'll never get that record now.

  • Ted S.||

    Meanwhile, pouty Eli is about to go 0-5. :-)

    And the Lions lost in Wisconsin for the 22d straight year.

  • Robert||

  • Killazontherun||

    Quite a last quarter in that game. Bangel's defense almost blew it with those calls (quite legitimate in both instances), but redeemed themselves with that last interception. In better weather, Brady would have made mincemeat out of those errors. Well, good game, either way. I like both of the teams.

  • Hyperion||

    Any day that the Bungels beat Jan Brady, it's a good day...

  • Ted S.||

    Somewhere out in California, Sloopy is having an orgasm right now. ;-)

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    That's usually a good bet even in the offseason.

  • Long Range Boredom||

  • Anonymous Coward||

    I think I dwell so much on "South Park" (and its creators, Trey Parker and Matt Stone) because, from the beginning, it's felt like the mood-ring of late-period Gen-X comedy writing. Parker and Stone's greatest gift is the speed at which they can ply their trade, famously turning in completed episodes with exceptional speed in order to stay current with buzzworthy talking-points. Starting off as filled with oddball pop-reference (remember Scuzzabutt, the monster with Patrick Duffy for a leg?) and nothing-sacred irreverence - the foundational setup, after all, being an exploding of the idea of children as innately good beings - before transitioning into social commentary and political haymaking.

    Why can't they be more like that insightful dreamboat comedic genius, Jon Stewart?

  • SIV||

    "America's Civics Teacher"

  • Robert||

    the foundational setup, after all, being an exploding of the idea of children as innately good beings


    Uh, St. Trinian's? Dennis the Menace? Mark Twain?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    In retrospect it was good Dumbya won in 2004 so the country could get a good whiff of the stench the GOP has become.

    And yes, John Kerry is still a giant douche.

  • everyone||

    Exactly. They dove into the cesspool created by the WPA of FDR from the blueprints of Wilson, renovated by LBJ.


    Palin's Buttplug| 9.2.13 @ 5:57PM |#

    If everyone agreed with me I would quit posting.
  • Cytotoxic||

    That's a lot of overwritten butthurt.

  • seguin||

    How is being self-employed reliable?

    P.S. This is why I read massively instead of escapist.

  • Killazontherun||

    Interesting find:

    Reggie Jackson and the Cost of Racism

    http://www.economicpolicyjourn.....cisim.html

    Arizona State standout Reggie Jackson was considered the best amateur ballplayer in the country heading into the 1966 Major League Baseball draft. The team picking first that year was the lowly, awful New York Mets.

    According to Jackson’s new tell-all, “Becoming Mr. October” (Doubleday), in which he details feuds and resentments toward his old Yankee teammates, the New York media and especially his old manager Billy Martin, the only reason he did not become a Met was because his girlfriend, Juanita Campos, was Hispanic.

    Jackson recalls how his coach at Arizona State, Bobby Winkles, broke the bad news.
    “A day or two before the draft, Bobby Winkles sat me down and told me, ‘You’re probably not gonna be the No. 1 pick. You’re dating a Mexican girl, and the Mets think you will be a problem,’ ” Jackson writes. “ ‘They think you’ll be a social problem because you are dating out of your race.’ ”

    Jackson was especially baffled because he’s part Hispanic — his grandmother is from Puerto Rico and his middle name is Martinez. But that didn’t matter, even to the perennial cellar-dwelling Mets.

    “No, you’re colored, and they don’t want that,” Winkles said.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Imagine their outrage if he had been dating one of ASU's yummy white co-eds instead of a Latina.

  • DonSouth||

    I question whether reason is like truth which is above politics or even philosophy. Reason is more like a tool to get at the truth. I guess using reason for any other purpose just reduces our discourse to pure rhetoric, an object of derision by the true truth seekers. This is what this article smells like, it is not reasonable to shutdown the government based on the objectives of a whimsical minority. Even if their opposition is principled, this is not the time to do it, at the expense of the welfare of the country as a whole.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Even if their opposition is principled, this is not the time to do it, at the expense of the welfare of the country as a whole.

    When is the time? How does defunding 17% of the federal government put the country as a whole at risk?

  • gaoxiaen||

    Because the soldiers that are overseas can't watch Monday Night Football.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Worse than Valley Forge.

  • Robert||

    political reality means that Republicans probably won't be able to stop Obamacare any time soon -- if ever.


    Ever is a long time. Think Obamacare'll last 100 yrs.? 200? Think the Republican Party will?

  • Rich||

    Think Obamacare'll last 100 yrs.? 200?

    Well, it *is* The Law of The Land, just like the Constit ... Never mind.

    Think the Republican Party will?

    The GOP will be gone in 10.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Obamacare won't last 10 years. Either it's repealed soon, or it gives way to full-blown socialized medicine within a decade.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Obamacare will be easy to improve because the heart of it is a private health insurance exchange.

    Medicare is the beast that cannot be privatized - Obamacare already is.

    And yes, I know there are subsidies - just kill them off.

  • Hyperion||

    Right... Obamacare is privatized, because in a private market, you are forced to buy products.

    Just good ol market forces at work here with the government deciding what products we should buy, just like free markets were meant to be.

    Gawd, you are stoopeed.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    It is private because the companies that deliver the services are private, you moron.

  • everyone||

    Listen to Benito Buttplug - he's right!


    Palin's Buttplug| 9.2.13 @ 5:57PM |#

    If everyone agreed with me I would quit posting.
  • Swiss Servator, Kneel to Zug!||

    It is private because the companies that deliver you are forced to purchase the services from are private, you moron pointer out of obvious corporatism.

  • everyone||

    Obamacare will be easy to improve because the heart of it is a private health insurance exchange.

    Dr. Shrike is a world-renowned cardiologist - we have faith in you!

    Palin's Buttplug| 9.2.13 @ 5:57PM |#

    If everyone agreed with me I would quit posting.
  • Jordan||

    Yeah, I'll bet it will be easy to change those 10,000 pages of regulations.

  • Hyperion||

    The United States as we know it, will not last 100 years. It's practically impossible. There are irreconcilable differences between the progs and a lot of us. Those differences can never be mediated. Not to mention the fact, that most people will refuse to work in a decade or so, as there will be no incentive to do so when those on complete government assistance will be better off until the collapse. Economic collapse is an absolute certainty without some type of secession by parts of the country, it's just a question of when.

    Look for the US to split into more than one country or a total economic collapse and ensuing chaos.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    SoCons are a bigger threat to our freedom than progs are.

    Hell, I buy insurance anyway. A $100 fine is the least of my worries when I can be jailed for years if I break one of their moral laws (thankfully abortion and contraception are currently legal).

    Jesusland (the old Confederacy) could be your Shan-gra-la (sp) but is sure as hell is not mine.

  • Hyperion||

    Yeah, you're right. SoCons are now in complete control and are jailing people for blasphemy and heresy. I just looked out my window and they are burning someone at the stake for not attending church this morning.

    That's for sure, way more dangerous than your proglodyte tyrants and all of their wars and psychotic rants about arresting anyone who disagrees with them and putting them before a military tribunal.

    Did a Christian repeatedly butt rape you when you were growing up, or are you just retarded?

    You should have your own comedy show, really.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Did a Christian repeatedly butt rape you when you were growing up, or are you just retarded?

    Neither -- he just realized yesterday that the love between himself and Mr. Fluffer Nutter the Chipmunk may in fact be legally actionable in the state of Georgia.

  • Irish||

    Hell, I buy insurance anyway. A $100 fine is the least of my worries when I can be jailed for years if I break one of their moral laws (thankfully abortion and contraception are currently legal).

    This is so ludicrously separated from reality that I'm beginning to think Epi is right about PB being a sockpuppet.

    This is like bizarre performance art.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    I didn't know Connecticut was part of the Confederacy, seeing as how that was the first state to form a temperance association against the scourge of whiskey. Nor Massachusetts, the founding place of the American Temperance Society. Nor in that hotbed of secession, Ohio, birthplace of the Anti-Saloon League.

    Shriek, how do you make it through life being as stupid and prejudiced as you are?

  • SIV||

    Delta is ready when you are.

  • Rufus J. Firefly||

    Progs are a bigger threat because they have access to the purse strings.

  • Robert||

    Oh, that's ridiculous. If it were true, it'd be true of just about the entire rest of the world, and they'd be there already.

    Yes, there are problems. But don't exaggerate. Exaggeration is a form of distortion.

  • Irish||

    The U.S. is vastly different from other countries because we're far less culturally and ethnically homogeneous. If you have a relatively big government in Sweden, you'll have fewer people who feel actively oppressed because you have fewer large minority groups who are being attacked by government power. In a huge, multi-cultural society like the U.S. powerful, centralized government is unsustainable because whichever cultural groups are out of power will tend to be actively oppressed and to chafe under the government's coercion.

    I hate 'American exceptionalism,' but it's undeniable that we are a country that is more multi-cultural than any society in modern times. As a result you can't really compare us to other countries.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    You're right about the differences in homogeneity, but US politics doesn't divide along racial or ethnic lines for the most part. It's more regional and ideological.

    I'm sure there's a fair amount of difference between the politics of people in Stockholm and those in rural Sweden too, but the parliamentary system does tend to squash minority viewpoints more effectively.

  • Irish||

    That's why my main point was cultural rather than truly racial. I think there's a larger difference between someone living in rural Georgia and someone living in New York than you're likely to find anywhere in Sweden.

  • Mokers||

    Ahh, the epic butthurt of progressives when people prefer something other than the choices their betters have made for them:

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetw.....complaints

  • Irish||

    Betsy Miller • 4 hours ago
    Has it occurred to the Fairfax School system that kids don't usually know what's good for them and what's not? That it's ADULTS who ought to be making decisions about what foods are offered to kids?
    137 •Share ›

    Avatar
    Bevans Betsy Miller • 3 hours ago
    Even most adults don't know what's good for them.

    I don't know why progressives get so mad when I point out that they're fascists. They've done so much to earn the title.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Fascism is a rightwing disease and Marxism a leftwing one.

    You and Johah can't change hundreds of millions of peoples knowledge by yourself.

    If I called a Jewish friend a fascist he would think I was joking.

  • everyone||

    When Benito Buttplug speaks, we all listen.


    Palin's Buttplug| 9.2.13 @ 5:57PM |#

    If everyone agreed with me I would quit posting.
  • Ken Shultz||

    "If I called a Jewish friend a fascist he would think I was joking."

    Does your Jewish friend think that the purpose of government is to force individuals to make sacrifices for the common good?

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Fascism is a rightwing disease and Marxism a leftwing one.

    Fascism and Marxism: Two branches of the same socialist tree. One claims to be fighting a nation/race struggle, the other, a class struggle.

    Both are shit. Shriek would gladly take either.

  • Ken Shultz||

    Fascism emphasizes sacrificing civil rights and communism emphasizes sacrificing property rights, but they're both about using the coercive power of government to force individuals to make sacrifices for the so called "common good"...

    The idea that there's a huge distinction between them is waaaay dumber than alternately referring to Barack Obama as both a communist and a fascist. That progressives try to pretend that there are huge distinctions between them is yet another reason why progressives are America's most horrible people.

  • Irish||

    Fascism is a rightwing disease and Marxism a leftwing one.

    False.

    From the Fascist Manifesto by Benito Mussolini:

    In labour and social policy, the manifesto calls for:
    The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
    A minimum wage;
    The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
    To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
    Reorganisation of the railways and the transport sector;
    Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
    Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

    In finance, the manifesto advocates:
    A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
    The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
    Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
    The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

    Boy, those sure are a bunch of right wing policy goals! I guess you were right. Nothing left-wing about fascism.

  • Calidissident||

    I think this is just another example of how useless the left-right paradigm is as a measure of political ideology. It's usually very context-relative and radically different groups often get lumped onto the same side of the spectrum.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    There are examples of the right-left paradigm being a poor sorting mechanism, but fascism is not one of them. At the time as much as now, fascism was claimed by its adherents and creators (and seen by its contemporaries) as a radical center ideology -- insulating the Western world from communism while retaining some of its ideas on societal organization and implementing its own radical program to unify the nation around its totalitarian governing models. (Ironically, this is not too dissimilar to the place that social democracy would later occupy during the Cold War.)

    In the German republic, the right-wing parties and personalities were distinct from Nazi pols -- and neither side trusted the other particularly well.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Claiming Nazism as part of the right came sometime during the late 30s/early 40s, and was only accepted as a consensus opinion around the 50s/60s.

  • Cytotoxic||

    But it's in the dictionary! The dictionary says it's a right-wing ideology so it is! /progtard

  • Calidissident||

    IT, I don't necessarily disagree with the description of fascism as the "extreme center," as it incorporates elements of traditional left and right wing ideology, but that description in and of itself proves my point, by having to put the word "extreme" (or "radical) before "center." Any sorting system that places Nazism in the same linear place as milquetoast moderates is woefully inadequate.

  • Robert||

    This is one area in which I agree with Lyndon LaRouche, who wrote that the seating arrangements in the National Assembly of France during the revolution didn't freeze political discourse for all time.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Actually it seems to have frozen in 1932, so that you have the semantically odd phenomenon of "progressives" working to conserve and augment 80-year-old govt policy.

  • Winston||

    Actually it seems to have frozen in 1932, so that you have the semantically odd phenomenon of "progressives" working to conserve and augment 80-year-old govt policy.

    That's because in US parlance leftists were supporters of the New Deal and the right were opponents. And "conservatives" were the opponents of the Great Society while liberals were its supporters.

    Not to mention the term "progressive" implies that increasing the power of the state is progress while those who wish to reduce state power are reactionaries.

  • Robert||

    But the New Deal was supposed to be the compromise or 3rd way (3rd position?) that would save free enterprise & democracy from the "left".

  • Winston||

    The Problem with the terms left and right is that the terms themselves only referred to the opponents and supporters of French Absolutism in 1789 in the most broad terms. Classical liberals and proto-socialists were on the French Left when they have nothing in common beyond opposition to the status quo as it existed in 1789. Bastiat sat on the same side as the socialists he attacked.

  • Winston||

    Not to mention this reminds why I get annoyed at the term left-libertarianism as it is an appeal to an non-existent Victorian era past when the Left was all filled with pure classical liberals.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Fascism was the original 3rd way between communism and capitalism.

  • DarrenM||

    Fascism is a rightwing disease and Marxism a leftwing one.

    Benito Mussolini was a Socialist before he 'invented' Fascism. Occam's Razor suggests it's doubtful he moved from extreme left to extreme right; that it's more likely Fascism is merely one more variation on the Socialist theme.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Irish, did you take classes at the Kennedy School of Government? Then of course you don't know what's good for you.

  • Robert||

    Funny, but the additives listed in the article are all B-complex vitamins.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Proggies are going insane. The shutdownocolypse is not hurting the GOP the way it should and I don't think OC is a hit. There are a couple articles on Forbes for crying out loud that are desperate to portray OC as success! Really it works! IT WORKS DAMMIT

  • Irish||

    What's really screwing the progs is that most people are just generally blaming government. Add to that all the people getting fucked by the Obamacare exchanges and there's a lot of general hatred of government rather than specific hatred of either party.

    General disdain for government is not good for the left. It's the sort of thing that makes it very possible for someone to come around in 2016 and drop a few good anti-gov one liners and fall into the White House.

    It makes it difficult for them to usher in the Total State that they so desperately desire.

  • Hyperion||

    It makes it difficult for them to usher in the Total State that they so desperately desire.

    Their hypocrisy is epic. If anyone else disagrees with their betters, then they should be arrested and sent before a military tribunal or sent off to camps. But it's ok for them to disagree and whine about the same things.

  • DarrenM||

    It's all about power; however, whenever, and in whatever form it can be obtained.

  • Hyperion||

    Really it works! IT WORKS DAMMIT

    HuffPost has been pushing that line of BS since day one, and there are a LOT of posts there by commenters who claim to have signed up and saved 50-90% on health insurance. I seriously doubt that even one of those posts is not a big fat lie.

  • Irish||

    According to the statistics I've seen, since AOL took over HuffPo, the average age of a Huffington Post reader is like 63 years old.

    Look at the numbers at Quantcast.

    23% of their readers are over 55. Fully 45% of Huffpo readers are between 45 and...uh...death. 66% are over 35. I think the reason is because AOL links from their home page to Huffington Post since they bought it. That means that all of the people who still use AOL for internet, which tends to be the elderly, end up at HuffPo through their homepages.

    The reason I bring this up is because if that many elderly people are reading Huffington Post, then it's actually possible that many of them have saved tons of money on health insurance.

    Remember: It's a transfer of wealth from the young to the old in which young healthy people further subsidize the health care of the elderly. Of course there are going to be elderly people who see large drops in health care costs because the cost is being subsidized by a 25 year old mechanic.

  • Hyperion||

    The majority of hardcore progs are those who were of college age in the 60s, most of whom are in their 60s-70s now. And they are the biggest bunch of commies and fascists since Mao and Stalin.

    The peak of proglodyte power has already passed in the USA. But I think they have already 'fundamentally changed' the country to the point of no return. Hopefully something new and just as good or better arises from the ashes, but they have in effect destroyed the greatest experiment in individual liberty in the history of civilization.

  • Irish||

    The majority of hardcore progs are those who were of college age in the 60s, most of whom are in their 60s-70s now. And they are the biggest bunch of commies and fascists since Mao and Stalin.

    This is just not true. The young generation of leftists is far more hardcore than even the people of the 60's and 70's were.

    Adam Weinstein, in that little "I'M TOTALLY NOT ENTITLED!" hissy fit that he threw, flat out argued for the end of capitalism. Salon published an article, and I am not kidding here, called The Legend of Zelda is classist, racist and sexist which approvingly quotes Marx and contains the following line:

    By focusing on the greed of individuals, the game ignores how private property incentivizes and even mandates such behavior. And with this moralizing focus comes a belief that society’s economic ills are intractable because of humanity’s flawed nature.

    He's advocating the end of private property. Admittedly this guy was rightfully taken to task by just about everyone, but if he'd advocated the same point in an article that wasn't a geeky diatribe about The Legend of Zelda he would have had progs nodding along to that last paragraph contentedly.

    Post about ending private property on the Daily Kos and I'm sure you'd find some support.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Yeah. The '60s leftists are still pretty hardcore, but they are for the most part civil rights-respecting socialists.

    The new generation of leftists are just statists all around.

  • Cytotoxic||

    When I think of the newbie progs and compare them to the oldie leftists, what stands out to me is that the new guys...how do I put this kindly? They need 'guidance'. The new progs are wholly reliant on Top Men to get them goose-stepping in the right direction and they either won't do it or won't know what to do without Someone Qualified giving 'guidance'. Like The Zerg when you kill one of their Cerebrate.

  • Hyperion||

    The new progs are wholly reliant on Top Men to get them goose-stepping in the right direction

    Read my post below, this is what you and Irish were missing. Sure they are more radical because they are younger. But without the old guys, they would just fade into oblivion.

  • Ken Shultz||

    They're definitely a consensus driven bunch.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    The new progs are wholly reliant on Top Men to get them goose-stepping in the right direction and they either won't do it or won't know what to do without Someone Qualified giving 'guidance'.

    The result of helicopter parenting, structured play from the age of 3 and being 'educated' in authority respect for 16+ years.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Nothing wrong with structure. I actually think the unstructured aspect of public school is responsible for a lot of the pro-authority stance among many nerds. Who wants to stand against reality when it's all that stands against the bullies in the prison that is a school?

    School should be structured.

  • Hyperion||

    The difference is, that the old guys I am talking about have all of the power. The younger ones, where do you think they are getting these ideas? They're getting these ideas from the old dinosaur Marxists that roam the halls of our major universities. The young ones just have more piss and vinegar in them, but they are not the driving force of the movement. But they are exactly like their puppet masters were like when they were young.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "They're getting these ideas from the old dinosaur Marxists that roam the halls of our major universities."

    I think they're getting it from their parents. This is the first generation without a generation gap--since before the baby boomers.

    They're completed conditioned to paternalism, to the point that they think of paternalism as the natural state.

    They're also huge conformists, which is why being part of the consensus is so important to them. Their personalities work a lot like facebook, where liking who and what other people in your group like is soooooo freaking important.

    Don't trust anybody under 30.

  • Irish||

    Don't trust anybody under 30.

    Present company hopefully excluded.

  • Ken Shultz||

    You're right... It's not about all of them. I was making a joke. That's an old hippie slogan: "Don't trust anyone over 30!"

    http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.....rticle/759

    I was turning the hippie expression on its head. It was supposed to be ironic. (I guess looking for irony in everything is supposed to be a Gen X thing.)

    Anyway, we're talking generalities, here, and we were talking about young progressives, right?

  • Ken Shultz||

    "They're completed conditioned to paternalism, to the point that they think of paternalism as the natural state."

    Incidentally, I have a working theory about how resentment against parental authority is the beginning of all libertarianism.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Except respect for liberty and respect for parental authority coexisted for a long time in this country, and both are eroding in unison now. Resentment of parents leads far more often to worship of an ideology, or of the state, than to libertarianism.

    Liberty cannot thrive in an atmosphere of disorganized individuals; it only takes root when there are strong organizational structures independent of the state. Such as the family, the church, etc (and I'm not prioritizing traditional structures, just mentioning them as the most familiar examples).

  • Cytotoxic||

    Eh liberty was eroding back in the '30s faster than now. Was parental authority eroding too? I think there might be a cause/effect reversal in their Tulpa.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Except respect for liberty and respect for parental authority coexisted for a long time in this country, and both are eroding in unison now."

    I'm talking about emotional development.

    Normal people start resenting their parents' authority as toddlers. It's called "the terrible twos".

    "The terrible twos typically occur when toddlers begin to struggle between their reliance on adults and their desire for independence."

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/heal.....os/AN02124

    When you get to be about 15-17, you're supposed to really start questioning your parents' authority. That's part of what we're talking about when we talk about the "generation gap", but there's more to it than that. The generation we're talking about is unusual (since World War II) in terms of their closeness to their parents through their teens and into college.

    If you're cool with your parents making your choices for you when you're basically an adult, then it's going to be that much harder for libertarians to engender a sense of resentment against the paternalism of the president or the government.

    I left home at 14 and worked my way through boarding school because I couldn't stand the thought of having to listen to my parents. If I ever accidentally did what they wanted me to do, it was only because I didn't hear their instructions properly.

    Selling libertarian hostility to paternalism to me was about as an easy as it could have been.

  • Irish||

    Ken, did you see that WSJ article which talked about fucking 20-somethings bringing their parents to job interviews?

    Millennials—people born between 1981 and the early 2000s—are much closer to their parents than previous generations, and they have gained a reputation for being coddled by so-called helicopter parents, say researchers who study Millennials. But when they started joining the workforce in the early 2000s, managers balked at parents getting involved in their kids' workplace struggles or job searches.

    For example, HR executives have to follow privacy policies that prevent them from sharing information with parents. That can be a problem when a parent calls asking why their offspring didn't get a job or wants to negotiate salary, Mr. Fall explains.

    They're letting parents negotiate salaries.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "They're letting parents negotiate salaries."

    I'd rather have chewed off my own fingers.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    That is a bit odd, but (a) they may just not have confidence in negotiating -- fathers "helping" their offspring negotiate car purchases and the like has not been uncommon in the past -- and (b) it doesn't follow from the evidence given that the offspring actually is asking or even letting the parent negotiate salary; the parent may just be overbearing and want to do it on their own.

    Ken: It may not be helpful for you to project the issues with your own adolescence onto other people's situations.

  • Irish||

    it doesn't follow from the evidence given that the offspring actually is asking or even letting the parent negotiate salary; the parent may just be overbearing and want to do it on their own.

    Tulpa, they're bringing their parents to job interviews.

    According to a 2012 survey of more than 500 college graduates by the human resources company called Adecco, 8% of millenials brought a parent to a job interview, and 3% had the parent sit in on the interview.

    I realize 8% isn't a particularly large number, but the fact that anyone thinks this is a reasonable thing to do is a little worrisome, don't you think?

    "I was actually making an offer to a girl to work for me and she whipped out her phone and called her dad and was going over the contract and he was asking questions and she got kind of confused and said 'here just talk to her and handed me the phone to talk to her father."

    I mean...what am I supposed to make of things like this?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I'm a little confused as to what's going on with the 5% who brought their parents but didn't have them sit in the interview. Those may be cases where parents are just dropping the kids off.

    Also, keep in mind this means 3% of the millenials had a parent at one of their interviews, not that 3% of interviews with millenials had parents sitting in. I'd also like to see how far back this survey goes, ie if it includes jobs they sought during high school.

    The story with the girl calling her dad about the contract is more a product of ubiquitous cell phones and probably a lack of confidence in understanding legal language and negotiation.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I'm coming up empty looking on Adecco's site for the survey details.

  • Irish||

    Found it.

    In fairness, 60 something percent said parents aren't very involved in the job search which obviously wasn't reported in that article.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    You SF'd the link a bit, here's the correct one.

    Looks like it's referring to their "current" job search. Hmm.

    I also like the bit about 15% saying they would refuse a job that did not allow them to text while on the job. I've already had some run-ins with millenials at my new job about this. One kid nearly got his head bashed against the cubicle when he uploaded a bug fix to our repo that broke the build, and when I told him to get to work immediately to diagnose and fix the problem, he took like 2 steps and then started playing with his phone.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Ken: It may not be helpful for you to project the issues with your own adolescence onto other people's situations."

    You don't think how we react to paternalism as children has anything to do with how predisposed we are towards libertarianism?

    Tell us, if that has nothing to do with it for you, then why are you so hostile to liberarianism?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    You don't think how we react to paternalism as children has anything to do with how predisposed we are towards libertarianism?

    No. I've seen plenty of rebellious kids turn into statists, and the few libertarians I've known came from happy homes. Very often rebellion becomes a conformism all its own, particularly among youth.

    As for me, not that it's any of your business, but I chafed under my parents rules and became a flaming leftist in college. By the time I came to libertarianism, during grad school, I had already realized that my parents were right most of the time and not really blameworthy in the instances where they were wrong. I certainly wasn't acting out any rebellion.

    I honestly don't see any conflict between respecting parental authority and accepting and desiring personal responsibility and independence when you're old enough.

    I have no idea what was going on in your life so I won't attempt to apply my experiences to it. Obviously there are bad parents out there.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Obviously there are bad parents out there."

    You really don't seem to grok the fact that everybody goes through the terrible twos.

    Chinese people. Every nation. Every race. Every religion. Throughout time. Always.

    People with good parents, too.

    No, really.

    If we're raising a pathetic generation of conformist dependents, then Capitalism and individualism are danger.

    If someone's parents contacted me to negotiate his or her salary, I'd fire their kid for being pathetic, but then there's no way a kid like that would ever make it past an interview with me, anyway.

    How could someone like that even project self-starter, works independently, results oriented, or, for God's sake, self-motivated? If you you don't have the confidence to represent yourself, then why would I hire you to represent me?

    LOL

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I'm not talking about terrible twos, I'm talking about your statement that you left home at 14 and never looked back. You're not claiming terrible twos lead to libertarianism (I hope).

    Walking away from your parents at 14 is unusual in our society and unheard of in many others. So yeah, I'm assuming there were issues there, and you've pretty much hinted at that yourself. Again, not my place to judge or even know.

    If you you don't have the confidence to represent yourself, then why would I hire you to represent me?

    This is a strange comment. Plenty of professional people use agents, lawyers, etc to represent them in negotiations. It's a skill that not everyone is good at.

    If you're hiring someone specifically for a job that involves negotiation then your attitude makes total sense. If not, you're quite possibly causing yourself to get subpar talent for the job you're hiring for. I don't give a rat's ass if my software developer is a good negotiator.

    BTW, you realize that most of our civilization was built by people whose parents chose their spouses, correct?

  • Ken Shultz||

    "You're not claiming terrible twos lead to libertarianism (I hope)."

    Sometimes I think you're being willfully obtuse.

    Yes, my statement was, "I have a working theory about how resentment against parental authority is the beginning of all libertarianism".

    I think linked to a quote from the Mayo Clinic that reads, "The terrible twos typically occur when toddlers begin to struggle between their reliance on adults and their desire for independence."

    Why wouldn't I think the terrible twos have something to do with why some people are more predisposed towards libertarianism?

    That's when people first start struggling against paternalism, and as they get older, and tear themselves away from their parents through their teens, some of them develop personalities in which their "desire for independence" outweighs "their reliance on [paternalism]". Those people, I suggest, are more predisposed towards libertarianism.

  • Ken Shultz||

    When my parents said, "If you're going to live under my roof, you're going to live by our rules", I replied, "And that's the way it should be, too, so I'm moving out from under your roof ASAP".

    You don't have to have done that to be a libertarian, but everyone's first experience with paternalism comes from--if not from their parents at the age of two, then where? If our attitudes about authority and other people making choices for us don't form from our reactions to our parents' paternalism, then how do they form?

    Some people are perfectly fine with their parents telling them what to do--right into the twenties. I suspect those people are a lot less predisposed towards libertarianism than the average libertarian, and I have no idea why that suggestion would be controversial.

    Sometimes, Tulpa? I think you find things controversial because you haven't heard any authority tell anybody what to think about it yet. Does the idea that other people think for themselves make you feel uncomfortable? 'cause it seems to!

  • Ghetto Slovak Goatherder||

    Are you talking theoretically or practically?

    What do you do? Are you hiring?

    I'm about to graduate college, I might have a year or a summer off. I'm self-motivated, a libertarian, and if you're looking for employees, maybe I can help.

  • Ken Shultz||

    We're not looking for anybody right now. Most of my projects are still really slow, but I have no doubt with your ambition, work ethic, and great attitude, you'll do well wherever you land.

    I was making a point of the 'if the shoe fits that link above' variety...

    Commercial real estate is all about representing the company and negotiating with investors, lenders, city councils, engineers, builders, brokers, lawyers, architects, federal agencies, Fish and Wildlife officials at the state, consultants, building buyers, land sellers, et. al.

    Point was that if I'm hiring you so I can train you to negotiate some of that for me so I can concentrate on something else? then the last thing I want to see when I hire that person is someone who doesn't have the confidence to negotiate for their own damn salary.

    When we're hiring, I don't expect anybody to have a ton of expertise fresh out of college. But they gotta have a certain amount of self-confidence in their own ability to see what's in their own best interests and present themselves as if they know what they're doing--without getting Mom and Dad involved.

    In fact, that stuff is supposed to come from Mom and Dad. They're supposed to start teaching kids how to present themselves like that when they're in the 7th grade.

  • DarrenM||

    Very often rebellion becomes a conformism all its own, particularly among youth.

    I think some have joined street gangs because of this, which can be a way of joining a 'tribe' and submitting to another authority.

  • Robert||

    My father gave some really awful advice for getting hired.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The terrible twos typically occur when toddlers begin to struggle between their reliance on adults and their desire for independence.

    Freudian claptrap, attributing adult thought patterns to children. Two year olds don't want to be independent, they want their own way, much of which involves parents doing things for them. You're not seriously telling me that the two year old screeching in Walmart because they want candy and mommy won't get it for them is voicing a desire to be independent.

    When you get to be about 15-17, you're supposed to really start questioning your parents' authority.

    That is a very late-20th century attitude. There's no logical conflict between accepting parental authority while you're young and inexperienced AND expecting to be responsible and independent when you're old enough.

  • Ken Shultz||

    "Freudian claptrap"

    Yeah, because if anybody says children develop psychologically, it must be Freudian something...

    Why am I always sorry I bothered responding to Tulpa?

    "That is a very late-20th century attitude."

    What, are you still living in your parents' basement or something?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Of course they develop. Casting their development in terms of adult thought patterns is off-base however, and Freud was the most prominent example of doing this.

    So is the 2-year-old screaming for candy desiring independence or not?

    In regard to your second remark I'll direct you to read what I said after the part you quoted.

  • Hyperion||

    Libertarians will have no problem at all capturing the youth votes if we make half an effort. Look at how they love Ron Paul. Seriously, they are there for the taking, the progs offer no hope at all, the only reason we will not get the youth vote is if we don't try.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    They don't love Ron Paul in anything approaching large numbers.

  • Cytotoxic||

    They love John Stewart in greater numbers. Did I mention my generation still thinks John Stewart's TDS is not only funny but a valid and indeed superior source of news?

  • Irish||

    John Stewart is funny if you watch comedy purely so that you can have a Pavlovian response.

    That's what left-wing comedy is today. It's people watching someone say something that isn't funny but which confirms their biases. It's not humor, it's demagoguery.

    Look at Maher. His entire show is "HURR DURR, REPUBLICANS STUPID!" and the gibbering hyenas in his audience laugh as if they have never heard anything so funny or original.

    It's like watching an entire country suffer brain death.

  • Cytotoxic||

    And that's the biggest reason I hate both of those NTACs: they pander to their audiences relentlessly because they have nothing left.

  • Rufus J. Firefly||

    Progs/libs (some anyway) are knee-splapping, spoon playing yokels with degrees.

  • Ken Shultz||

    I hope you're right about that.

    Like I said, I was giving some generalities about the tendencies of a whole generation. Once these kids get out and experience some real hardship, some of those tendencies may change.

    Not everyone in Generation X was an individualist. Not every baby-boomer thought well of the hippies.

    There's still plenty of hope, especially since we have the truth on our side. But the challenges with the facebook generation are real, and we should be aware of that.

  • Irish||

    Like I said, I was giving some generalities about the tendencies of a whole generation. Once these kids get out and experience some real hardship, some of those tendencies may change.

    They do experience real hardships and their response is to agitate for the expansion of the programs that caused them.

    Look at people being crushed by student loan debt who are too stupid to realize that the explosion in school costs are the direct result of poorly thought out government loan programs.

    So what do these people do? They argue in favor of giving more people loans and decreasing the interest rates for the loans, both of which would result in college costs increasing even more rapidly and more people being killed by debt.

    The idea that anyone with $60,000+ in student loans could believe in the benefits of big government is just unbelievable to me.

  • Cytotoxic||

    I think with my generation there is a...chaotic split/radicalization. As the hardship increases, the chances of someone either 1) leaving the reservation increase or 2) digging in their heels and putting their heads further up their own asses. I don't know how it ends.

  • Irish||

    As the hardship increases, the chances of someone either 1) leaving the reservation increase

    Like former SNL cast member Kevin Nealon saying this:

    Kevin Nealon ✔ @kevin_nealon

    Be careful government. We may realize we actually don't need you after all.

    I am starting to see some celebrities turn against the left. I think that's a good sign. When you have more comedians or people like them attacking government, low information voters might actually pay attention.

    John Lovitz called Barack Obama an asshole and said he was having trouble calling himself a liberal anymore. Someone told him that's because he's actually a libertarian, and he kind of agreed.

    Stuff like that was inconceivable even 5 years ago. I think there is split between the people who open their eyes and those who just bury their heads in the sand.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Nealon's just trying to follow Dennis Miller's career path again.

  • Cytotoxic||

    The situation has always been bleak for us on the cultural front, and 2008 made it a lot worse. Maybe it had to get worse before it could get better. We are seeing things in the last few years that would have been total fantasy in the last 50 years, even during the Reagan Revolution. The Tea Party, for all its flaws, is probably the main driver of this alongside the Ron Paul Revolution.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The Internet is huge in a lot of ways, as it dilutes the power of media elites. It also allows for more efficient and effective talking point delivery by the statists, but they did that fairly well via the MSM in the old days anyway.

    One front where YouTube has been huge, and I doubt anyone could have predicted this 10 years ago, has been in gun rights and spreading gun culture.

  • JeremyR||

    Jon Lovitz? WTF is Jon Lovitz?

    He's a Z grade celebrity. He was on SNL for a few years 20+ years ago.

    He's only getting attention because he's one of the few even Z-grade celebs that criticize the president.

  • Rufus J. Firefly||

    So. Ad hominen = not allowed to have an opinion.

    And Lovitz produced some fine skits on SNL and was on Newsradio.

    So there.

  • Robert||

    I think of him mostly as the voice of The Critic.

  • Killazontherun||

    Lovitz is The Man who broke Andy Dick's nose by slamming his face into a bar top for saying something sleazy about Phil Hartman. That's WTF Lovitz is.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Look at people being crushed by student loan debt who are too stupid to realize that the explosion in school costs are the direct result of poorly thought out government loan programs.

    Too few of them are questioning why everyone should go to college in the first place, although that's slowly changing.

  • Cytotoxic||

    Don't trust anybody under 30. anyone who posts more than once a week on Facebook. Seriously, that site is like an X-ray for what makes its members really tick.

    Hyperion makes a good point that is make a lot stronger in combination with Ken's point about 'consensus-driven' oh my God is this ever truth. Being an individual means joining the Individuality Hive.

    Side note: my generation hates labor unions like no other. At least in my experience.

  • Calidissident||

    In my experience, you can divide young people into 4 main groups politically:

    1) Progressives: This group isn't a majority, but is the largest politically active group.

    2) Conservatives: A minority, but nonetheless significant. Their strength and numbers depends a lot of demographic factors - region, rural/urban/suburban, race/ethnicity, religion, etc.

    3) Libertarians: Growing, and more numerous as a percentage than in older generations, but still a minority. Probably smaller in most places than conservatives, but more enthusiastic on average. In addition, I think there's clearly a strong influence by libertarianism on many young conservatives. Most polling on most issues, as well as election results, seems to indicate that younger conservatives and Republicans are more libertarian than older ones.

  • Calidissident||

    4) More or less everyone else: Probably the biggest group, with the three main subgroups - the apolitical (people who don't care about politics at all, and rarely if ever vote), the apathetic (don't care too much, but care enough to pay a little attention and will probably vote, at least in presidential election years), and moderates (with many moderates falling into the apathetic category). The apathetics and moderates are not as blindly progressive or statist as the people in category 1, but nonetheless will tend to vote Democrat if/when they do vote. I think this is largely because of sociocultural reasons - the image of the GOP (not entirely accurate obviously, but not completely inaccurate either) as racist, sexist, homophobic, classist, etc., and what they've been taught in schools growing up (which obviously has influence on the caricatures I described). I think there's some potential in this group for libertarians to make gains with - but it will be difficult. If you look at polling on many civil liberty issues (especially stuff relating to spying and Internet privacy), young people are generally more libertarian than older people, and I think it's largely because this group is more libertarian on such issues than their equivalents in older generations.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Good summary.

    One interesting thing that just popped into my head: Back in the 2008 GOP primary debates, I remember a moment where Ron Paul went on a rant about the government printing money, right as time expired for his answer. Then Fred Thompson basically repeated a distorted version of what RP said about printing money, mocking him, and the audience laughed.

    Now, 5 years later, basically the same message that RP was being mocked for is on the lips of every major conservative talk radio host and a shitload of GOP politicians.

  • Irish||

    Ron had two major problems:

    1. An atrocious taste in friends and a willingness to talk to and associate with anyone who would listen to him. I understand his desire to grow the movement, but when you're speaking at rallies for anti-Semetic Catholic groups that have actually been excommunicated by the church as a result of their Holocaust denial, it tends to make people wary of working with you, even if they might otherwise agree. I don't think Ron himself is a racist, I just think his willingness to align with racists and anti-Semites seriously harmed his message.

    2. It's easy to see why people view him as a crank. His speeches, his arguments during debates and his general demeanor have always seemed a bit crazy. Libertarians might agree with him enough to look past his demeanor, but to the general public he looks like a kook.

    There are also issues with Paul's idiotic fan base which is basically a cult of personality.

    Because of those issues, I think that various aspects of Paul's message resonate with people when they come from more politically astute people like Rand Paul and Justin Amash. Ron Paul just wasn't able to sell it to anyone other than impressionable college kids because of his demeanor and the moral and ethical lapses of his associates.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Ron Paul was a voice in the wilderness for most of his political career. He was pushing 70 when he finally had a chance to influence the direction of the party and the country, so it's understandable that he had a hard time dropping his gadfly ways.

    The late 80s and early 90s were a very, very bad time for libertarianism. It's easy for us in the Internet age to criticize Rothbard's strategy of appealing to extremist militia groups and Southern racists, but fact is, nobody else was listening, and the flame of liberty was about to be put out. That's the background of the newsletters, which is why I've come to forgive RP for them (though I don't forgive him for not revealing the true author). He really had to talk to whoever would listen.

    I'm not sure Rand is any more politically savvy (as evidenced by his amateurish handling of the Maddow question on the civil rights act back in 2010), he's just known he's playing to win from the getgo.

  • Irish||

    That's a bad answer to a question he was asked right around when he first entered politics. If you watch him on shows today, he consistently owns the people who are questioning him, and he does it so calmly that it's impossible for even the most ardent liberal to convince anyone outside the left-wing ghetto that he's one of those evil Teathuglicans.

    His drone filibuster was genius and his response to Obama's Syria speech was the best Republican response they've had in Obama's entire presidency.

    I do see your points about Ron Paul though. I think one huge liability for Paul wasn't even him, it was some of the nutcases who fell into a cult-like following around him and would spam youtube and political sites with RON PAUL 2012 regardless of what the topic was.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    reason sucks

    (Sorry, indulging in post-newsletter-revelation nostalgia)

  • Robert||

    The late 80s and early 90s were a very, very bad time for libertarianism.


    Weird, huh, just as the Iron Curtain came down?

    I'm not saying you're right or wrong about the above, just that

    nobody else was listening, and the flame of liberty was about to be put out.


    is a great exagger'n. It's hard to believe the flame of anything could be put out in the span of, what, 5 or 10 yrs.? I suppose maybe the flame of something particular like Nazism or Branch Davidianism could be put out by literally killing a bunch of people in a short time, but not a broad movement.

  • SIV||

    Rothbard's strategy of appealing to extremist militia groups and Southern racists

    Southern racists like the Canadian KKK?

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Bingo, Irish. I expect that more people will be drawn to advocates like Rand Paul and Amash, as they give off less of a crazy/desperate vibe.

    Vis a vis parenting, I suspect that the main difference between younger people today and younger people in the past is that today, younger people are more infantilized, spend more of their years in educational institutions, and generally wait until longer to attain financial independence. Ultimately, you can't have a freedom loving population that has never exercised such -- or indeed, has never seen the virtue in doing so.

  • Calidissident||

    Irish, I think that's a pretty good summary of Ron Paul. I have argued, and continue to believe, that someone like Paul (a steadfast, uncompromising, rigid voice of opposition who is willing to abrasively and vocally challenge the status quo, while reaching out to different groups of people) was necessary to lay the groundwork for people like Rand Paul, Amash, etc. to build upon and accomplish things. That's not to say he was perfectly suited for the role - his age and personality made him easily painted as a kook, as you said, and there were many times, in debates, TV appearances, etc., where he could have been more eloquent. Most of all, as you mentioned, he made a lot of unnecessary and avoidable blunders in who he associated with. But I do think that if we're lucky enough to look back decades from now and reflect on substantial accomplishments and changes by libertarians, that Ron Paul will get a lot of credit as the modern godfather of the movement, even if he didn't personally get much (if anything) done in terms of policy.

  • Cytotoxic||

    It'll be interesting to see what my generation does come child-bearing age. My guess: they will have basically no kids. They are not prepared in terms of finance or character. I know I'm not.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The people intelligent enough to think things through are unlikely to have kids. But....you've seen Idiocracy, right?

  • Cytotoxic||

    No I haven't but I should. That phenomena won't happen to my generation if their schooling was anything like mine. All of middle school (shudder) and then some was non-stop DRUGS SEX SMOKING DRUGS SEX SMOKING. If my generation is capable of anything it's putting on a condom. This somehow seems fitting.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I always struggled with that skill, though the main problem was not having the right size.

  • Ted S.||

    Tough to find those extra-small condoms?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I put it that way just to see who would be immature enough to attempt that joke. How does it feel to spring Tulpa's Trap of Deception?

  • SIV||

    PWN'D

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    The initial rollout of healthcare.gov was a total failure.

    Obama's team built a great campaign system that did predictive analysis on voters and took in over 800,000 individual donations in a month.

    This one is the exact opposite.

  • Ken Shultz||

    It was supposed to make healthcare affordable for working poor people, but it actually sics the IRS on the working poor...

    And you think the problem with the pig is the way they applied the lipstick?

    LOL

  • Rich||

  • VG Zaytsev||

    The problem with that is Obama being an unprincipled liar.

    He'll agree to it and then just re-issue whatever waivers he wants. And the f--king media will cover for him again.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    They'd have to insert a provision stating that any waivers or exemptions results in an immediate cutoff of funding. They just don't have the balls to make a demand that audacious.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I've been arguing that since the beginning, but I'd be shocked if they tried it. Team Red's fundamentally clueless when it comes to fixing the healthcare system.

  • Banjos||

    Because many of them don't understand economics as well as we think they do. I remember during the initial Healthcare debate Glenn Beck saying something to the extent of "of course Medical care is really expensive the US, it is cutting edge and new technology naturally costs a lot."

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    How does that reveal a lack of understanding of economics?

    When desktop computers, synthesizers, mobile phones, etc were new technology they cost a fortune.

  • Banjos||

    Yeah, except computers, cell phones, TVs, etc. are getting cheaper.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Yeah, but none are new technology. A better comparison would be 3D printers, which are still incredibly expensive.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Yeah, but none are new technology. A better comparison would be 3D printers, which are still incredibly expensive.

    Except--as I've repeatedly pointed out to the clueless--a regular live birth and two days in the hospital costs 9-10 times more now on an inflation-adjusted basis than it did 50-60 years ago. That has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with third-party cost shifting.

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Glenn Beck is (at least in part in this instance) correct. Researching and implementing new technology into healthcare has generally had the tendency of improving outcomes while keeping prices constant or raising them. Lasik surgery has gotten marginally more expensive, for example, but far more precise and simple as an operation. It is probably not the main driver of costs, but it is a part of the equation.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Its influence is even greater because prolonging life means more health care expenditure for the person; and the people whose lives are prolonged are not usually productive workers, so there's no economic benefit.

  • Cytotoxic||

    You're both a little off. The reason US medical costs so much is that Medicare/aid makes it profitable to shove 'high-tech' costly stuff everywhere possible.

  • OldMexican||

    Re: Palin's Buttwipe,

    SoCons are a bigger threat to our freedom than progs are.


    Just one more example of the simplemindedness of the modern left (and the total lack of economic sophistication from the part of the Buttwipe, to boot): The Buttwipe really believes that the Progs are not SoCons in their own way, that freedom = social freedom only and that economic freedom = something the government can control successfully because (wink, wink!) economic freedom is not real freedom anyway.

  • Hyperion||

    freedom = social freedom

    At least for abortion and gay marriage. Until we decide those things aren't in your best interest.

    /the proglotyes.

  • Killazontherun||

    I think I've figured out who his employer might be:

    China employs two million microblog monitors state media say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/worl.....a-24396957

    More than two million people in China are employed by the government to monitor web activity, state media say, providing a rare glimpse into how the state tries to control the internet.

    The Beijing News says the monitors, described as internet opinion analysts, are on state and commercial payrolls.

    Would explain why his idea of a libertarian is disconnected to any libertarian that you have ever met, as the only Americans he has ever met are Chi-com symps working in the embassy.

  • Warrren||

    Apparently the interface is so poorly designed clicking on anything while navigating the health care sign up page launches a mini-DOS against the site itself.

    http://www.reuters.com/article.....7T20131005

  • Hyperion||

    Unpossible! Everything the government does is da bestest, cause the right people are in charge now! All hail Dear Leader, off to the camps with you, bagger!

  • Warrren||

    NO! I walk around your cones!

  • Almanian!||

    Warren! Warren! Warren! Warren!

  • Mokers||

    CGI Group Inc, the Canadian contractor that built HealthCare.gov

    Putting America back to work!

  • Cascadian Ephor Xenocles||

    "One possible cause of the problems is that hitting "apply" on HealthCare.gov causes 92 separate files, plug-ins and other mammoth swarms of data to stream between the user's computer and the servers powering the government website"

    Oh, so it's like reading articles here.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    the interface is so poorly designed

    Just like Apple!

  • Cytotoxic||

    Well....this is actually one way OC is like Apple.

  • Hyperion||

    Was talking to my son last night, and we started talking NFL. He told me that he was on one of his foozball blogs and that the subject came out about how Obama feels the Redskins need to change their name. He said that the majority of the comments were something to the effect of:

    STFU, asshole, and pass a fucking budget!

    Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Or maybe that was the beer...

  • Robert||

    We have not only Redskins in the Bronx Warriors -- http://www.eteamz.com/bronxwarriorsfootball -- but also Navajos (my team this season), Mohicans, Blackfeet, Apache, Sioux, and Shawnee. Our chief wears feathers.

  • ||

    ESPN's college football analyst David Pollack under fire for saying women shouldn't be on college football playoff committee

    The former Georgia standout caused a stir during ESPN's "College GameDay" on Saturday by saying that he doesn't believe women belong on the College Football Playoff selection committee. The comment came just one day after The Associated Press reported that former U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is expected to be a member of the committee that will select teams for the College Football Playoff next year.

    “Now I’m going to stick my foot in my mouth, probably,” Pollack began. “I want people on this committee, guys, that can watch tape ... Yes, that have played football, that are around football, that can tell you different teams, on tape, not on paper...”

    As Pollack was explaining his stance that members of the committee should be former players, ESPN host Chris Fowler asked if such a requirement should preclude women from serving on the committee.

    “So no woman belongs on the committee, then?” interjected Fowler.

    Rather than avoid the question, Pollack took the bait.

    “You said that … I’ll say it, yeah. Yeah,” he responded as other panelists stated that they disagreed.

    Someone's going to be suspended and sentenced to sensitivity training.

  • Robert||

    But there are adult women who play football. Girls too; the Rams team that tied us yesterday had one.

  • DarrenM||

    They should have a few cheerleaders on at least.

  • Hyperion||

    Good grief, the Cowgirls and Donkeys have scored almost 100 points.

  • Hyperion||

    Over 500 yards passing for Romo. I wonder if anyone will think to pass on the Donks.

  • ||

    That Cleveland Browns joke works just as well with Tony Romo and the Cowboys.

    He just let them down one more time.

  • Hyperion||

    Yep

  • Mike M.||

    Leave it to Romo to have the best game of his career, and yet still find a way to choke in the end. So perfectly typical of the guy.

  • Rufus J. Firefly||

    I wouldn't be too hard on him. Geez, 500+ yards, 5td's and 48 points. The defense has some explaining to do.

  • Killazontherun||

    It's crazy to even entertain the idea he or their offense lost that game no matter what happened in the last two minutes. You don't score 48 points without hitting a wall of pure exhaustion.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The Cowboys only ran 54 plays, which is fewer than any team that played today.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Oops, the Bears also ran 54 plays. But still, that's a pretty low number.

  • Ted S.||

    And to think Pouty Eli is still only two games out of a playoff spot.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Equal opportunity idiocy:

    He's not the type of armed man on campus you'd expect parents to be concerned about -- but apparently a police officer dropping off his daughter at school was just too scary for some parents in Mesa.

    And the school principal actually called that officer to ask him not to wear his uniform on campus ever again.

    The issue was that other parents were concerned because he had a gun.

    !!!!!!!!!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    GOOD THING THEY DIDNT HAVE ANY DOGS AT SCHOOL HURR DURR HURR

  • Cytotoxic||

    Shut up Tulpa.

  • JeremyR||

    Well, it does piss me off that police get to carry guns in gun free zones, even when they are off duty.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Is that so? I thought the GFSZA required that an officer be on "official duty" to carry on school property (as opposed to the bubble zone where anyone with a CCW license can carry).

  • Banjos||

    If these parents knew how many people conceal carry in AZ, they would never have their precious snowflakes leave their home.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    One reason the grabbers fight like hell against open carry while grudgingly allowing concealed carry.

    It was always interesting to be sitting in a restaurant in Pittsburgh and listen to one of my leftist friends go on about how guns are the most terrible scourge on society and if we let more people have guns there will be mass carnage on the street, etc.... when I was carrying concealed, along with probably 30% of the people in the restaurant.

    In a society where open carry was permitted AND not inviting police harrassment, such silly ideas would not survive. But forcing armed people to conceal their weapons allows it to exist.

  • Banjos||

    I remember standing outside a music store after a banjo lesson in Phoenix bullshitting with a group of people when one of them went off on an anti-gun rant. Everyone standing there just smiled and nodded. 3 of 5 of us were carrying.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    In defense of conceal, it has been proven/strongly theorized in studies to reduce crime.
    Except for the crime of brandishing a firearm on a windy day while in the presence of an hysterical gun grabber. That crime always seems to skyrocket. More research is needed to determine the cause, a NIH grant is in the works...

  • The Late P Brooks||

    We condescend to take your money in order to build a pointless monument to our victimhood.

    Residents in Newtown, Connecticut, have voted to accept nearly $50 million in state money to build a new school at the site of an elementary school where a gunman killed 20 first-graders and six adults in December, a town official said on Sunday.

    The referendum on the Sandy Hook Elementary School, held on Saturday, passed 4,504 to 558, said John Vouros, a Board of Education member.

    --------

    The town plans to demolish the school and build a new school on the site. Sandy Hook students have been moved temporarily to the former Chalk Hill school in the nearby town of Monroe.

    I hope the new school will be in the form of a pyramid of tiny skulls.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    At least when BO kills children, he demolishes the building for them too.

  • JeremyR||

    I wish that wasn't hyperbole.

    I realize drone strikes are far from the worst things this country has done, but it would be nice if they were acknowledged as a bad thing.

    Apparently we used special forces teams to take down targets this weekend, why can't we do that instead of drones more often?

  • JeremyR||

    Woops, was hyperbole.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    This was the worst in my adult life:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.....se_in_Iraq

  • Cytotoxic||

    But the drone strikes aren't remotely a bad thing. Neither is white phosphorus.

  • Sevo||

    "Neither is white phosphorus."
    By what measure?

  • Cytotoxic||

    It helps Good Guys kill Bad Guys.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    I didn't realize it analyzed the soul of the target before incinerating them.

  • Sevo||

    Except if the bad guys get hold of it.

  • Irish||

    Who knew that the children at Afghani weddings were bad guys?

  • Cytotoxic||

    Did not say it was specific. It doesn't need to be perfect neither does America.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    A novel way of talking about omelettes and eggs, eh Cyto?

  • Calidissident||

    The mere fact that you would type out such a sentence, complete with the capitalization of "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys" is proof that you are way too immature and simplistic in your thinking to have a debate on this issue.

    At least John offers (somewhat) logical arguments in support of his position. You just repeat kindergarten-level slogans that seem like they were pulled straight out of the script of Team America: World Police.

  • Robert||

    At least when BO kills children,


    Can it really be that bad?

    he


    Whew. That's really how I reacted as I read that sentence. Anybody else get funny misimpressions from partial reads?

    Anyway, Top Men used to criticize the superstition of those who were so revolted by bldgs. where people had died (but not hospitals, apparently) as to abandon or demolish them, or at least lower their resale value. Now...?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    What do you want to bet the new place is built like a prison.

  • Robert||

    The old places were built like prisons.

  • gaoxiaen||

    A simple monument isn't enough.

  • Cytotoxic||

    But we've cut TO THE BONE.

  • Alice Bowie||

    I Think that everyone (Obama and Republicans) feels that they have nothing to lose. If they just go over the fiscal cliff

    - Obama will think everyone will blame the Republicans
    - Republicans will think everyone will blame Obama/Democrats

    It would be at the Republican's advantage to let the Economy fail as they will blame Barak Obama toward the end of his term.

    I think the Democrats have more to lose. They will have to cave.

    This will set a precedent and all (Liberals/Conservatives/etc.) will use this new instrument on our democracy.

  • Banjos||

    "This will set a precedent and all (Liberals/Conservatives/etc.) will use this new instrument on our democracy."

    I hope so. Americans will start getting fed up over shit being shutdown regularly and hopefully start demanding that it be taken out of the hands of the Federal Government.

  • Sevo||

    OK, but who else would handle the debt and the spending?

  • Cytotoxic||

    Or they would just learn not to care and realize that the feds aren't important to your life.

  • Sevo||

    "This will set a precedent and all (Liberals/Conservatives/etc.) will use this new instrument on our democracy."
    Sorta like that hag rammed Obamacare through?

  • Sevo||

    Report from (navy) blue area:
    Headline: "Boehner to Obama: No debt hike without concessions"
    http://www.sfgate.com/news/pol.....873299.php
    Note the claim is "concessions" not "negotiations". You'll get to the 10th page of the comments before someone points out that the US has a multi-party government; the rest of the slobbering herd swears that denying what Obo wants is TREASON!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    OK, FindAGrave.com is the biggest hoax perpetrated on the American people since the metric system. They don't even tell you where Spuds MacKenzie's grave is.

  • Cytotoxic||

    THE METRIC SYSTEM IS NOT A FRAUD YOU WILL KNEEL BEFORE IT DO NOT QUESTION THE METRIC SYSTEM

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    or just do what Canada does: pretend to be on the metric system

  • Anonymous Coward||

    How a government is supposed to be run:

    Greek Labor and Social Insurance Ministry Considers Seizing Assets to Pay Off Pensions

    The Labor and Social Insurance Ministry is seriously considering drastic measures in order to obtain the social security contributions owed by enterprises and to avoid having to slash pensions and benefits.

    The ministry is planning to force companies to pay up or face having their assets seized, so that the 14 billion euros of contributions due can be recouped.

    While this amount – equal to 8 percent of the country’s gross domestic product – may be easy to calculate on paper, it is virtually impossible to collect even if the state attempts to confiscate all the real estate properties of debtors and the debts of third parties to them.

    The ministry has been forced to consider asset repossessions as a result of the very poor state of social security funds. The fiscal gap expected at the end of the year from social security will at best be equal to 1.06 billion euros. This also constitutes a bad start for next year, too, when the budget will also provide for a reduction in state subsidies to social security funds by 1.8 billion euros.


    I wish I could make this shit up. I really do. But I have trouble pretending to be blind enough that I couldn't foresee the negative consequences of such an action.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    Uh, doesn't the IRS do the same thing when a US company or person fails to pay taxes?

  • Cytotoxic||

    That's not even germane.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-VA)||

    The Labor and Social Insurance Ministry is seriously considering drastic measures in order to obtain the social security contributions owed by enterprises and to avoid having to slash pensions and benefits.

    They're doing amazing things with reading comprehension these days.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Uh, doesn't the IRS do the same thing when a US company or person fails to pay taxes?

    No. The IRS solution is a fine (equal to what is owed) and/or imprisonment for fraud.

    And you don't get more wool by cutting the sheep's throat than you do by shearing it. How does a business with no assets continue to pay the withholdings tax to prop up your little social security fund?

  • Sevo||

    "How does a business with no assets continue to pay the withholdings tax to prop up your little social security fund?"
    Uh, 'cause Kock brothers!

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Oh, I see.
    So, Greece is averting total anarchic collapse by potentially destroying businesses so that... old people can have free money?
    Sounds legit.

  • Ted S.||

    Start by confiscating the assets of the elected officials and government-sector workers.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Damn this has a lot of comments... hey are you guys licensed to have this much comment in such small an article?

    With the shutdown how will the NIH continue to fund researchers to look for evidence supporting the Department of Agriculture-approved food pyramid?
    How will the citizenry and doctors and nutritionists know that the best way to prevent the historically recent phenomena of the diseases of civilization is by eating neolithic foods none of our ancestors ate while stuffing ourselves with carbs and Omega-6 fatty acids in a way that would make Weston Price & Vilhjalmur Stefansson roll in their graves.
    Who will tell us now that an all-red-meat ribeye diet is bad for us and evil. Who?!
    Senator McGovern said it was okay, and that's good enough for me.

    If you don't know what I'm talking about click my name, buy Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Calories & checkout the paleosphere. (also, get Fat Head on Hulu/NetFlix/Amazon it's Gary Taubes/Paleo101)
    Gary Taubes' book is taught at some universities. If you read it and retain/understand most of what it says you will become almost an instant expert. You'll know more about modern nutrition research/disease prevention history & how to be healthy than 99% of doctors.
    Also: http://journeytoforever.org/fa.....cetoc.html
    /paleopropaganda

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    What, no mention of your shock that a stay-at-home mother making up to $9307 a week working on her computer?

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    No, I have nothing against online drug dealers.

  • Irish||

    Daycare worker allegedly rapes infant.

    I feel like there's nothing I can add to this story.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Woman did it. She'll get probation.

  • Calidissident||

    Wow. That is fucked up. I can't even begin to comprehend ... just WTF? Seriously?

    And of course there's the inevitable comment blaming this on societal decay caused by pop music

  • Sevo||

    So the Niners are winning (and likely will win), but it looks like HM could have played QB with the same result.
    Not sure the team or the coach lives up to the press.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    LEAVE ROMO ALONE

  • ||

    It's not his fault they lost, but Romo does have an amazing ability to self-destruct in the last two minutes of a game.

  • John||

    Manning finally found a quarterback who is a bigger gagger than he is.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    At least Manning's won a few playoff games--Romo has the same number of playoff wins as Tim Tebow.

  • Ken Shultz||

    He's choked like that since season one.

    He's a choker.

    He chokes.

    Choker.

    Ha!

    HTTR

  • ||

    Apparently the government has shutdown its Amber Alert website but Michelle Obama's 'Let's Move' webpage is still up.

    Priorities.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    wow that is fucked up, but they'll probably have to put it up if they need to use it...right? Otherwise it would be political suicide... letting people die, what is this? Benghazi?

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    Tonight on Bourdain's CNN show: Danish chef says "socialism is not a dirty word here."

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    That's ironic considering Denmark had the world's first fat tax which was quickly scrapped. Of course in doublespeak "socialism" probably means "stuff that fits the vision of the Anointed Ones and that hasn't failed"

  • Snark Plissken||

    Denmark manages to combine its welfare system with a high degree of economic freedom. People often put those things on the same axis, but they aren't the same thing.

  • Ketogenic Paleo||

    Ah yes it's possible to have socialism without fascism, Marc's nationalized businesses without Mussolini's business-crushing regulations. Case in point: Canada does not have anything like the American Sherman Antitrust Act, yet is/was more socialist.
    Also if Denmark has a real welfare system that saves costs by subsidizing the poor only as opposed to a socialist system that subsidizes the poor and rich alike then I can understand.

  • DarrenM||

    Ah yes it's possible to have socialism without fascism, Marc's nationalized businesses without Mussolini's business-crushing regulations.

    But for how long? I suppose it depends on how willing the pols are to keep up the balancing act.

  • Archduke von Pantsfan||

    Chargers fans deserve better.

  • wooffjordy||

    Start working at home with Google! It's by-far the best job I've had. Last Wednesday I got a brand new BMW since getting a check for $6474 this - 4 weeks past. I began this 8-months ago and immediately was bringing home at least $77 per hour. I work through this link, go to Economy tab for more detail ...

    =============== http://WWW.MAX34.COM

  • elfieareeda||

    my roomate's mother-in-law makes $62 hourly on the internet. She has been fired for 8 months but last month her income was $19895 just working on the internet for a few hours. Read Full Article================

    http://www.Works23.Com

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