Ken Burns on Prohibition, Pot, and PBS
Q&A with America’s top documentarian
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Google“Slavery was our worst idea,” says legendary documentarian Ken Burns. “I’m not sure that Prohibition was second, but it’s really up there.” In his five-and-a-half-hour film Prohibition, which aired in three parts on PBS in October, Burns takes an in-depth look at one of the most controversial episodes in U.S. history. Working with his longtime collaborator Lynn Novick, Burns explores the causes, failures, and legacy of the nation’s “Noble Experiment” in banning alcohol.
Burns’ previous works on topics such as the Civil War, baseball, and jazz were critical and commercial successes, helping to revitalize the documentary form and start rich conversations about race, history, and politics. Prohibition likely will do the same.
“There were all these factions, left and right, black and white, that were for [banning alcohol],” he says. “It [is] too easy to dismiss it as purely a retrograde, conservative attempt to pull the country back to some good old days that never existed. It was a much more complicated dynamic.” The documentary stresses the role of Progressive legislators in pushing the 18th Amendment.
Burns, a self-described “Democrat for life,” eschews doctrinaire activism in his art, bringing decades-old stories to life through the eyes of colorful characters, written testimonials, and period music. “The telling of history need not be Castor Oil, the dry recitation of dates, facts, and events,” he says.
Despite the immense popular appeal of his work, Burns is no fan of “the market” when it comes to making films. While Bank of America is a major funder of Prohibition, he says that in a commercial television setting the company probably would have exerted editorial pressure on the finished product. He says corporate money and commercial outlets, even on niche cable channels, come with too many strings and compromises attached. And he worries that the proliferation of cheap production and distribution technologies, while a cause for optimism, leads to audience fragmentation. “People can seek their own self-satisfying sources of knowledge,” he says, which “is hugely dangerous.”
reason.tv Editor in Chief Nick Gillespie sat down with Burns in New York City in October. For video of this interview, visit reason.tv.
reason: Why is Prohibition in vogue these days? There seems to be a real interest in this period, in re-examining it.
Ken Burns: There’s always a superficial interest in Prohibition. You’ve got gangsters; everybody wants to be able to kill the people who piss them off. You’ve got women who are seemingly promiscuous; the flapper dancing with the short skirt and the bobbed hair on top of the tables.
But in every case is the understanding that Prohibition reveals a lot more. This is the story of single-issue political campaigns that metastasize with the most horrible unintended consequences, including creating organized crime. This is about the demonization of recent immigrants. This is about a whole group of people who feel like they’ve lost control of their country and want to re-exert that control by imposing on these newcomers some new law. It sounds so familiar.…It resonates with today’s themes.
reason: What are the parallels with today? Is the parallel directly to the drug war?
Burns: No, I think it’s less to that. Alcohol is used by every culture since there have been human beings. Drugs are a subcultural thing. Alcohol was something everybody did, so eliminating it required a great act of faith to take place. Drugs are not favored by a majority of people. While there are lots of similarities and the possibility of taxing and regulating marijuana is a hugely interesting consideration, once again, it’s unintended consequences. You have to be careful.
[Prohibition was] so much like our political moment: lack of civil discourse, the demonization of immigrants, smear campaigns during presidential elections, all of this sort of single-issue campaigning. All of that stuff resonates with today, because, in fact, human nature is the same. Prohibition brings out and reveals to us our essential dichotomy, not between us as much as within us. The generosity and the greed. The Puritans and the prurients. The sincerity and hypocrisy. The Saturday night at the bar and the Sunday morning in church.
reason: Your previous documentary, about America’s national parks, called them America’s best idea. Would you say Prohibition was our worst?
Burns: It’s close to being our worst. Slavery was our worst idea. I’m not sure I’d put Prohibition second, but it’s really up there. For the first time in our history, we had an amendment—which were usually about expanding human rights—that actually restricted human rights. It was put in there, ironically, as an amendment because we thought it would be enshrined in the Constitution and therefore never be repealed. But of course it’s the only amendment that’s been repealed, which shows that at least we have some intelligence and woke up to the hypocrisy.
(Interview continues below video.)
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time.
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Good morning reason!
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Bringing bean-bag shotgun rounds to a rifle fight will do that.
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I guess he didn't realize the BATF was arming his opponents.
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+10
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drugs were, no doubt, involved...which is the subject of this thread. jeesch
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And he worries that the proliferation of cheap production and distribution technologies, while a cause for optimism, leads to audience fragmentation. “People can seek their own self-satisfying sources of knowledge,” he says, which “is hugely dangerous.”
Back in the good old days an editor at the big 3 broadcast stations may have decided his piece was too controversial to put on television. What would his opinion been then?
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I think he's just saying that he's in favor of the RIGHT people deciding what the audience gets to see. You know, the "right" people - the ones that he hangs out with.
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The "right" people, the ones who get their funding by pointing a gun at others.
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What are you saying? That they wouldnt be Top Men?
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People can seek their own self-satisfying sources of knowledge,” he says, which “is hugely dangerous.”
People are starting to think for themselves. And we can't have that. I find Ken Burns and the idea that people shouldn't be allowed to seek their own sources of information to be extremely dangerous.
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You see, I'm intelligent enough to think for myself. I don't require the betters to determine what is acceptable lines of reasoning and what ultimately is considered the "truth". In fact, I belong to the class of people who should be sifting through complex situations and distilling the "truth" to the unwashed masses. Leaving normal people to their own inferior devices to deduct their own versions of the "truth" is dangerous. I am your filter America. You're welcome!
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Now Kenny, what did we tell you about gnawing those straps on your straightjacket? You'll get breakfast at 8am just like every other day; until then please refrain from biting, chewing, nibbling, munching and/or generally attempting to digest anything else on the premises. Thank you!
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Isn't saying "I am no fan of the market when it comes to film" just another way of saying "the world owes me a platform"?
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Yes, it is.
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But isn't that the way you want a creative type to think? It's an excrescence of confidence. How could anyone think that way unless he was convinced he really had the stuff? And if he was so convinced, how could he not think that way?
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“Slavery was our worst idea,”
Yeah, but slavery isn't the only thing we invented in the US; there's also the car!
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You know, all those ATMs and computers have put so many people out of work. That's why we have all this unemployment.
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You don't know what Hard Times are Daddy. HARD TIMES... are when the textile workers in this country, are out of work, got 4-5 kids, can't pay there wages, can't buy the food. HARD TIMES... are when the auto workers are out of work and they tell 'em "Go Home". And HARD TIMES... is when a man has worked in a job... 30 YEARS, they give him a watch kick him the butt and go "Hey, a computer took your place daddy" that's Hard Times.
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Slavery wasn't "our" idea.
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> slavery...we invented in the US
bullsh!t...slavery has been a part all human societies since the beginning of time...until we fought a war to end it.
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Try googling 'human slavery' or 'human traffiking.'
Let's say the US Civil War was a battle, ok? There's still slavery in the US and in the world.
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He went to my highschool.
As did Iggy Pop. -
Where is that?
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Pioneer High, The People's Republic of Ann Arbor
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I am surprised they haven't renamed it "Young Pioneer High".
Jay Nordlinger of NRO is from Ann Arbor too. He talks about this book store there called "The Little Professor" that only carried leftist approved books. Wouldn't carry anything else. He used to call it "The Little Oppressor" growing up.
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but that'd be all good if the books were rightwing?...or if the store owner was *forced* to include them in inventory?
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Urine - thanks for bringing your unique brand of stupid to us again! You once again miss entirely what John was saying, and give an utterly misdirected analogy. Comic gold - you're the gift that keeps on giving.
Thanks, Urine!
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nope - my comment was spot-on john's subject. it tries moar harder...
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I had to look up "Young Pioneers".
+100
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"The Little Professor"
I thought that's what Paul Krugman called his penis...
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"The Little Professor"
I thought that's what Clinton called his labor secretary.
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Being as he's never had a tenured job, I thought that's what they call Obama.
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My friend Craig Large went to Pioneer.
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I was there from 2000-2004.
With over 2,000 kids in the school though, I didn't even know most of my class. -
The Large Man aka The Dancing Bear graduated in 1988. Well before your time. Even though he's from Michigan, he's a decent guy.
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I used to own a Pioneer stereo.
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What's a stereo?
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there was a time when audio was produced by dedicated machines that allowed flexible routing of multiple sources through a powerful amplifier that drove the speakers.
now, feel free to go back to enjoying your LM386 powered, 5watt, portable media devices.
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But why would anyone want to vacuum their tubes? They're glass. Just wipe them down with windex.
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Okay, is this a competition, two most famous people from commentariat's High Schools?
Quetzalcoatl starts us off with Burns and Pop, which isnt bad.
I counter with Diane Sawyer and Wes Unseld.
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Vince Lombardi and Joe Torre.
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Me and . . . . I guess it's just me.
Overton, Memphis, 1971.
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Wes had one of the best afros ever back in the day.
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Dr J.'s was pretty sweet too.
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Well, if it's a competition then let me add Bob Seger.
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Bob and Iggy. That is pretty good. What is it with Detroit and music stars? It must be the cold weather.
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Yeah, but what has Detroit done lately? Jack White?
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Kid Rock. But in fairness no one lives there anymore. What has Carthage produced lately?
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Jack White is good. He's no legendary guitar god or anything (that a lot of people like to pretend he is), but he makes solid music. I also have to say that after seeing the White Stripes live once I was pretty impressed with the sheer amount of sound and presence he and his ex-wife had as a rock duo.
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Jack White and White Stripes suck balls. The music is horrid.
Other than that, he's great.
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Based only on hearing studio tracks, I have to say that Meg White one of the worst drummers at her level (i.e. bands of similar popularity).
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MC5, The Meatmen, The Necros, The Fix, Negative Approach, Laughing Hyenas...
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Yeah, but what has Detroit done lately?
Detroit has demonstrated the end state of the modern urban center. Chicago is on its way to repeating the experiment and OH's cities are ... well, best not to speak of Ohio. It's just too depressing.
There is a reason why most people want to live in the suburbs despite the endless cheerleading by those who celebrate the alleged increasing "urbanization" of the U.S.
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Erskine Bowles and I am too ashamed to name another.
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Steve Alford and Kent Benson.
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If you went to a high school that was formed by merging two other schools, can you count alums from both places? If so, Jerry West and Randy Moss.
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After extensive googling, the closest thing to famous from my high school is this guy.
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I decided to check the wife's alma mater and found out that my mother-in-law went to HS with Peggy Noonan.
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My wife's alma mater graduated members of Black Flag, Descendents, Redd Kross, Circle Jerks, and Pennywise. Oh, and about half of the AVP tour.
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Shockingly, I know of no one "famous" from Alma High School.
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Jean Kirkpatrick graduated from my H.S.
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Nolan Ryan and...um, well, there was a girl in my class who's friends with the family on "Sister Wives," so there's that.
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Bud Colyer and one of those politicians I couldn't stand.
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ron jeremy and george tenet, 2 big pricks
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My high school apparently can only pump out jocks ranging from football to MMA, and apparently a sports broadcaster.
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1. Slavery
3. Prohibition#2 was the income tax.
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I vote for medicare as number 2.
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Income tax is a worse idea than medicare. Considering the income tax is a minor form of #1.
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Before that they had what amounted to a national sales tax in the form of tariffs. If the money still comes out of my account, I really don't see the difference what form the tax is in.
And medicare is going to ruin the greatest health care system in the world and bankrupt the richest country in history. That, is a bad idea.
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Before that they had what amounted to a national sales tax in the form of tariffs. If the money still comes out of my account, I really don't see the difference what form the tax is in.
It makes a huge difference. One kind of tax just tries to fund the treasury. Another attempts to find out what John does during the day, how he makes his money, why, who he associates with and what can we do to change John's behavior so we can build a better world.
Income tax is the latter.
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Before that they had what amounted to a national sales tax in the form of tariffs. If the money still comes out of my account, I really don't see the difference what form the tax is in.
It makes a huge difference. One kind of tax just tries to fund the treasury. Another attempts to find out what John does during the day, how he makes his money, why, who he associates with and what can we do to change John's behavior so we can build a better world.
Income tax is the latter.
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So true, I had to say it twice. Reckanize.
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I vote for the New Deal as #2, but some may count that a slavery too.
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4. Reality tv.
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I reject the entire argument because slavery wasn't our idea.
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#2 is The Federal Reserve system.
#3 Income Tax
#4 Alcohol and Drug Prohibition
#5 Our interventionist foreign policy -
Ken Burns = Unaware Douchebag
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What makes you think he's unaware?
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+1. What a dick this guy is.
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After reading this interview, I'm pretty much left thinking that Ken Burns can go fuck himself. I'm glad I figured that one out and didn't even require his expert guidance.
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Slavery was our idea? So, the Greeks, Romans, etc. didn't have it first? It wasn't a human phenomenon long before 1787? I had no idea.
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They learned it from watching AmeriKKKa.
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goddamn oracles and their spoilers.
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“People can seek their own self-satisfying sources of knowledge,” he says, which “is hugely dangerous.”
Dangerous to whom?
Him, I assume, and his bottom line.
Ska, above me, said it best.
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I, too, prefer that people hand me money with no strings or expectations attached. Luckily, the government is decidedly less provincial when handing out the hard-earned dollars of the taxpaying rubes.
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His professional abilities aside, my word what a snot-nosed douchebag the guy is.
He's essentially demanding that his fellow citizens be forced to support his work because his films "make this country worth defending and worth living in."
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Isn't saying "I am no fan of the market when it comes to film" just another way of saying "the world owes me a platform"?
Presumably there's some kernel of self-awareness in him somewhere, a shamed core that knows he's a below-average clip-show editor whose ridiculous material and reputational success consist of his being the government's favorite clip-show editor.
There are really only two possible reactions to knowing you're such a disgraceful shit: self-effacement, or a desire to efface. So he wants to eliminate the mechanism by which others might be chosen over himself, the chosen.
"Assholes gonna ass." —Sigmund Freud
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But Burns made the highest rated show on PBS. That's like being the most productive farmer in North Korea!
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I just finished Season 2 of Boardwalk Empire. Who hasn't seen it and wants a spoiler?
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You made that show? Is Allen L. Rickman still in it?
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Season 2 was a lot better than season 1, but the show still lacks a certain something.
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Hi Ken. Please note that slavery was not our idea, we were simply doing the same thing the rest of the world was doing at the time. Don't get me wrong, it was bad, but it wasn't an American idea. The bedouins and tribes in Africa came up with it.
Also, for the record, Alcohol is indeed a drug, and a very dangerous one at that. Pot is just a pleasant herb, but booze, now that stuff is wicked.
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Seriously. Native Americans were doing peyote in the desert for how long? Then the white man brings the firewater.
Occifer, am I free to get wasted?
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at least some tribes were aware of fermenting corn.
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Burns lost me when he tried to justify smoking bans. He knows someone who died from lung cancer? Well, I know someone who died from cirrhosis. So, let's go back to prohibition! So much for eschewing doctrinaire activism. Thanks, Nick, for exposing this ass clown for the hypocrite that he is.
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smoking ban != tobacco ban, but then that distinction is probably 2 advanced 4 u 2 grasp;-]
since smoking the evil weed only grew after the introduction of pre-rolled cigs, band those.
or, since 50% of beach waste (not sure if that's wet or dry weight, or volume;-) is cig.butts, require 20 butts as a deposit for each pack...cleans up environment, gives bums^H^H^H^Hhomeless a source of income;-)
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Ken Burns is "America's Top Documentarian"?
NOT WHILE MICHAEL MOORE STILL DRAWS BREATH!
Now, these two might need to duke it out over who's the "Most Authoritarian", but Moore's clearly #1 on the doc front.
CLEARLY.
/idiot
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To be fair, MM is a fat, marxist propagandist who only masquerades as a fat, marxist documentarian.
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Errol Morris is better than both of them put together.
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“People can seek their own self-satisfying sources of knowledge,” he says, which “is hugely dangerous.”
Yes! It is dangerous to have diversity of thought and opinion. All comrades please report to the re-education camps immediately where Ken Burns and his ilk can direct your media consumption to our liking.
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I've enjoyed many of Ken Burns, that's because I like looking at old pictures. His "stories" leave a lot to be desired. Really, he likes old Abe. Nuff said.
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Ken seems awfully angry and bitter.
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As soon as Burns makes a documentary about a currently hot political issue, the world will see just how committed he is to telling all sides of a story.
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Ken knows his funding depends on being non-controversial, which is fine. I mean, c'mon: baseball, the Civil War*? His funders are absolutely not going to want to be associated with anything that has the whiff of conflict to it.
So its no surprise that he scrupulously avoids the painfully obvious in his doc on Prohibition.
And that would all be fine, if he weren't so full of it his work being free of "strings and compromises" and thus worthy of taxpayer support.
*Face it, War of Northern Aggression obsessives: it is not controversial outside of some very narrow circles.
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But in those narrow circles? Hoo boy.
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His "funders?" You mean government, and politically connected organizations, right?
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Mr. Burns is undeniably a great documentary filmmaker, but he doesn't seem to appreciate the "hugely dangerous" consequences of either limiting peoples access to "self-satisfying sources of knowledge" or the dangers to his own artistic freedom when some arbiter decides Mr. Burn's stuff is devisive.
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Guy looks kinda baked to me. I met him in person a few years ago, and he looked kinda baked then too. And short.
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I watched the entire series and loved it. Truly interesting to see the whole history of the "dry movement" behind the act of prohibition. That was part of history that I wasn't aware of.
I do have issue with a few things Ken Burns said and if he is really on here reading the comments I would love to hear your honest feedback.
reason: What are the parallels with today? Is the parallel directly to the drug war?
Burns: No, I think it’s less to that.
I vehemently disagree with Ken on this point because today's Drug war is modern prohibition. The exact same unintended consequences have arisen from this prohibition. We have gangsters murdering by the 1000's in Mexico. Dangerous drug cartels running gangs in America. Prisons overfilled with drug users and sellers. Extremely high black market profits driving everything - Weed alone is worth something like $15Billion to Mexican Drug cartels every year - that is a HUGE business.
To me the parrallels are so astoundingly similar that it's just beyond me why our country continues this maddness. The desire by 10% of the population for weed is always going to be there. The desire by 1-2% of the culture for harder drugs is always going to be there.
Treat it as a medical problem. Legalize ALL Drugs and then work on regulation, taxation, education and rehabilitation.
"Because it is drugs, and you don’t have that widespread human history that you have with alcohol—we’ve been fermenting, brewing, and distilling since there have been human beings."I find this statement to be false. Throughout human history there has been use of cannabis, opiates, coca leaves, mushrooms and other naturally occurring drugs. The Chinese, middle eastern cultures, central, south and native North Americans have used marijuana and other naturally occurring drugs for hundreds, even thousands of years. So in some cultures/regions these 'drugs' have seen relatively widespread use but in modern western culture the use is certainly less. I do agree that alcohol use has certainly been more widespread. Cannabis should be legal for recreational and medicinal use. We use opiate based drugs in all kinds of medicinal situations for pain killers. Anyway this is a weak argument then we should maintain the current Drug War - it's time to end the drug war and follow the lead of Portugal and Amsterdam.
"When you wake up at three in the morning and your house is on fire, you don’t call the marketplace."
If there were no 'public fire stations' the marketplace would supply firefighters either through volunteerism or business that sell monthly (or even some combination). The trouble comes from some people who would freeload. However I could see some HOA's requiring fire insurance for apartment owners and other high density zones. Where there is a need - someone in the marketplace would fill that need.
"You are not expecting the marketplace to protect you after 9/11."NO. I am not. That is an issue of national defense and the federal government is supposed to protect our borders. However I will point out that it was our Government's Foreign Policy that led to 9/11. Had our leaders and military never been involved in middle eastern affairs, attacking Iraq and occupied other nations lands - we probably never would have experienced 9/11.
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Careful air drummer, we didn't "fight a war to end" slavery, let's keep the history accurate, and that's as inaccurate and ignorant as they come!
