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More Than Zero

Why won’t people who love to make zero-sum arguments about the economy apply their own lessons to government spending?

Anyone who has expended energy arguing for free trade, market competition, and the open exchange of ideas has repeatedly encountered the same obstacle: zero-sum assumptions misapplied to dynamic, nonlinear phenomena. Almost anywhere you see statism advancing— in economic policy, national security, even the basic conditions for free speech—you can bet that underneath there’s a faulty zero-sum argument. All complicated matters of life, according to this way of thinking, can be reduced to a simple binary scale: Press your thumb down on the bad end, and the good one will go up.

So when President Barack Obama slaps a 35 percent tariff on Chinese tires, as he did on September 11, he does it in the name of ensuring that (as he put it in a campaign promise) “China is no longer given a free pass to undermine U.S. workers.” In this yin-yang formulation, there is a single pie of domestic American tire consumption, and China’s slice is growing bigger at the expense of domestic producers. Forget the overall U.S. economy, with its 99.9 percent non-tire-industry workers (and its government-owned, money-hemorrhaging auto companies), all of whom are happy to take advantage of cheaper tire prices. And forget a once-starving country that has catapulted more human beings out of poverty within a generation than any nation in the history of the world.

Most of all, forget the famous formulation by Adam Smith, dating back to the Declaration of Independence: “If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry employed in a way in which we have some advantage.”

You might have thought that the New Democrats routed those zero-sum arguments years ago, perhaps when then–Vice President Al Gore eviscerated Ross Perot while debating the North American Free Trade Agreement on Larry King Live. But Old Democrat economics made a rousing and depressing comeback during the 2006 congressional elections, to the point where Hillary Clinton felt the need to actively campaign against the policies (including NAFTA) of her husband. Ideas long marginalized to the Ralph Nader slice of the left are back in vogue in the mainstream, and everywhere you look you see a pie.

“The truth is,” first lady Michelle Obama said in April 2009, “in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more.”

It’s an alluringly simple vision, this notion that public policy challenges can be solved merely by lifting some gold off one end of the scale and plopping it down on the other. You see it every day, for example, in California, where for decades the conventional wisdom has held that the proximate cause of the Golden State’s periodic fiscal meltdowns is Proposition 13, the 1978 ballot initiative that caps annual property tax increases. If only those greedy homeowners gave up a bit more of their pie, presto! No more budget problems.

There are three fatal flaws in this line of thinking. The first is that it fails to acknowledge, let alone explain, the fact that we keep placing more and more gold on the “government services” end of the scale without seeing anything like a commensurate increase in results. If the fiscally troubled 50 states had simply limited the growth in their budgets to the growth rates of population plus inflation in the good times of 2002–07, they’d be sitting on surpluses instead of lobbying Washington for a second round of federal bailouts.

President George W. Bush increased federal education spending by 58 percent in real terms, and Obama is on track to at least double that record. How much gold can the education establishment consume before the current crop of governing Democrats begins to entertain the notion that the root problem of public schooling isn’t a lack of funds?

The second flaw in zero-sum economic logic is that by consciously whittling down issues to a single, hermetically sealed scale, policy makers overlook the complexity of consequences, whether intended or not. Who could have predicted that, as Veronique de Rugy points out in “Who Wants to Tax a Millionaire?” (page 16), a 1969 tax aimed at just 155 of the country’s richest people would end up affecting 4 million Americans 40 years later? Certainly not those who proposed and passed the tax at the time, nor those who are acting on similar impulses today.

Nor do soak-the-rich types entertain the idea that their high-value targets might respond to new incentives in ways that could have negative side effects. The rich are so different from you and me, the thinking goes, that their behavior won’t change. In March 2009, when the president was pushing to jack up taxes on charitable contributions by the well-to-do, he pooh-poohed the possible negative impact on charities. “Now, if it’s really a charitable contribution, I’m assuming that that shouldn’t be the determining factor as to whether you’re giving that $100 to the homeless shelter down the street,” he said. “I think it is a realistic way for us to raise some revenue from people who’ve benefited enormously over the last several years. It’s not going to cripple them. They’ll still be well-to-do. And, you know, ultimately, if we’re going to tackle the serious problems that we’ve got, then, in some cases, those who are more fortunate are going to have to pay a little bit more.”

Back when New Democrats still held sway—and both the stock market and economy were humming along—auto-abusive ideas such as taxing every stock transaction were limited mostly to Ralph Nader’s presidential campaigns, where corn-pone wag Jim Hightower was fond of saying things like, “Yeah, Wall Street’s whizzing all right—it’s whizzing on you and me!” Nowadays such sentiments are being translated into new legislation from the majority party in Congress, such as the Let Wall Street Pay for the Restoration of Main Street Act of 2009. The idea that Wall Street is utterly unconnected to Main Street (whose adult residents typically own stock and occasionally work for companies who have taken advantage of initial public offerings) would almost be funny if so many people in power didn’t actually believe it.

The third and most infuriating aspect of zero-sum economics is that its practitioners suddenly forget to apply the same standard to one of the few entities that can accurately be described with a pie metaphor: government budgets—especially on the state and local level, where printing money is not an option and sometimes you aren’t even allowed to run a deficit.

This issue of reason is filled with infuriating stories, including cops legally stealing from people who haven’t been charged with crimes (Radley Balko’s “The Forfeiture Racket”), a college student getting punished for reading a book criticizing the KKK (Greg Lukianoff’s “P.C. Never Died”), and a chilling look at the drug war’s death toll (Brian Doherty’s “War in Juarez”). But one that should get your blood boiling every time you see a zero-sum argument is Steven Greenhut’s cover story on the “Class War” being waged by government workers against the rest of us.

As Greenhut details, public-sector unions are not just growing the pie of government on all levels; they are brazenly gobbling up two, three, and even 20 times the amount that they were taking just a few years ago—on guaranteed contributions to their pension plans alone. Wherever you see a politician or public servant warning about “draconian” cuts to public services, you almost certainly are witnessing an agency whose employees have negotiated a sweetheart pension deal within the last decade. It’s awfully hard to balance a budget, let alone improve public services, when you’re tripling a major line item. When will Michelle Obama talk about that pie?

Matt Welch (matt.welch@reason.com) is editor in chief of reason.

the other alan|1.8.10 @ 12:40PM|

this is good stuff, but we can get a bit more comic relief or something? Seriously, I could feel my blood pressure rising through the whole article - and that last paragraph gave me a headache all by itself. Its Friday for goodness sake!

|1.8.10 @ 2:42PM|

What do you want, more Jar Jar Binks?

High Everybody!|1.8.10 @ 2:45PM|

You rang?

nutter|1.8.10 @ 11:38PM|

Just hearing that name makes my blood pressure shoot through the roof.

k|1.9.10 @ 3:45PM|

It's coming. Just read further down.

Kroneborge|1.8.10 @ 12:49PM|

Some great points here.

One quick comment on trade though. Trade requires both sides exchanging something, not one side doing the majority of the making, and the other the majority of the consuming (see Ricardo's orignal example of compartive advantage).

Thus for the most part what the US has been doing for the last number of years isn't trade at all.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 1:23PM|

Re: Kroneborge,

Thus for the most part what the US has been doing for the last number of years isn't trade at all.

No, it is trade, except the US commits fraud by artificially inflating the money that is using to pay for the goods. THAT's the bad part.

|1.8.10 @ 1:51PM|

Are you trying to say that my buying almost all of my groceries from Shoppers, yet them not having bought anything from me, is somehow bad for me?

|1.8.10 @ 1:57PM|

Investment is trade too. That people in the US (not the US itself, except to the extent it sells government debt outside the US) maintain an investment surplus with people outside the US is not in and of itself bad.

What did you trade to get the house you live in? Maybe you were fortunate enough to have something to trade for it. Most people aren't.

|1.8.10 @ 1:06PM|

The most obvious example of this is the so called Keynesian "multiplier effect".

Somehow, government spending is supposed to magically produce extra weath, but private industry spending the same money doesn't.

Gilbert Martin|1.8.10 @ 5:14PM|

Yes I was thinking that myself.

It is the most glaring example of the leftists refusing to apply zero sum logic.

The Libertarian Guy|1.8.10 @ 5:28PM|

Leftists look at wealth like a pizza: There's only X amount, it has to be sliced thin enough so everyone gets a piece... and we have to eat the box.

Bill Clinton|1.8.10 @ 5:29PM|

Hey, man... my alarm went off. Is someone talkin' about munchin' on a box? Does anyone know how to get hold of Monica?

Hillary Rodham.|1.8.10 @ 5:33PM|

WillIAM!!! WILLIAM JEFFERSON BLYTHE CLINTON III!!! Put down the bimbo and get your worthless ass back to Chappaqua right this fucking instant, meal ticket!!!!!

Mon|1.8.10 @ 11:41PM|

It's been over ten years. Don't you think these Clinton jokes have gotten a little old and tired by now? (btw, I was no fan of the man)

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 1:01AM|

There are still Reagan jokes, Carter jokes, and there will no doubt be Bush Version 2.0 jokes for decades to come. Someday, there will even be Obama jokes, just as there are today.

Besides... it's a great thing to be able to make fun of past and current politicians. People in some countries are put in prison - or worse, shot - for less.

Mon|1.9.10 @ 5:03AM|

Of course I agree that it's a great thing to be able to make fun of presidents. I'm just saying that it's getting old, especially on every other thread here, as though the jokes are original. Okay, wake me up when they've been put out to pasture..zzzzzzz

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 5:53PM|

It's been over ten years. Don't you think these Clinton jokes have gotten a little old and tired by now?

Nope

|1.8.10 @ 9:51PM|

I don't really think leftists actually care whether things are zero sum or not. All they care about is that it gets redistributed. All arguements are simply contrivances intended to get to that point. In that sense, Keynesian economics is just a tool. A useful way of getting weath seized from the rich and given to the poor. They don't actually care whether it works or not.

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 5:54PM|

Next you'll say the proletariate really wasn't better off in the Soviet Union.

|1.11.10 @ 1:50PM|

One entirely perspicuous flaw in the idea of a greater than unity economic multiplier from government spending is that the government will spend more efficiently than someone who earned the money.

More generally someone who steals or is given resources is always less interested in efficient use of resources than someone who had to work for them. Why should they be? There was little or no effort in acquiring them?

The entire history of governments shows this.

The strong correlation between unemployment and government spending just tells us what we already know.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 1:32PM|

Almost anywhere you see statism advancing— in economic policy, national security, even the basic conditions for free speech—you can bet that underneath there’s a faulty zero-sum argument.

The zero-sum argument being used to justify the zero-sum game that is government spending.

Statists will accuse their cherished enemies of committing the very same crimes the State commits:

- They will argue that rich people "take" from their communities, to justify the State taking from everybody.
- They will say economic progress is a zero-sum game to promote the truly zero-sum game that is government thievery and spending.
- They will accuse people of not self-regulating to justify a non-regulated government regulating everybody else.

And so on. It's Orwellian-speak.

JB|1.8.10 @ 1:59PM|

If it was really a zero-sum game (only retarded fetuses believe this), then we would still be living in caves.

Game. Set. Match. Any fuckbag that doesn't understand that simple statement isn't human in my eyes.

|1.8.10 @ 2:26PM|

Uhm, "fuckbag", your use of "it" has no determinable referent. You might want to hire a retarded fetus to copy edit for you.

JB|1.8.10 @ 2:45PM|

I think you might need to get a refund on your education and learn how to read.

"It" refers to human life and the world.

|1.8.10 @ 4:04PM|

Hey, I paid for his education -- I should get the refund.

Rudd|1.8.10 @ 11:44PM|

Where can I order a fuckbag and how much are they going for?

Eliot Spitzer|1.9.10 @ 1:02AM|

I may be able to help you with that, Rudd...

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 2:25PM|

Not all government spending is zero sum, some of it is positive sum, and a great deal is negative sum. Just the deadweight cost of taxation makes a formerly zero sum transaction negative.

It is important to note that some things like the police, the courts, and the military actually create value; when justly used of course.

prolefeed|1.8.10 @ 4:25PM|

It is important to note that some things like the police, the courts, and the military actually create value; when justly used of course.

But do they create as much value compared to if they were privatized?

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 5:50PM|

That's a reasonable debate, I tend to think at the least they do; as I am of the opinion that private security firms would evolve into a state. There are some pretty big economies of scale, free rider problems, and network effects here.

Zenmaster|1.11.10 @ 10:15AM|

Privatizing the military is a bad idea.

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 5:58PM|

"It is important to note that some things like the police, the courts, and the military actually create value; when justly used of course."

How do they create value?

At best they are necessary evils.

Kroneborge|1.8.10 @ 1:32PM|

To be fair to Keynsian theory, it posits that in the abesence of sufficent private demand, the government can temporairly increase demand to prevent a demand spiral.

J_L_B|1.8.10 @ 2:53PM|

Indeed, but it presumes that consumption must always be above a certain level and consumption below that level is unacceptable. Instances where consumption drops, as in all other economic situations Keynesians view as non-deal, leads to them questioning the wisdom of consumers’ reasons for the decrease and a call for corrective actions by their betters in government. What I always found fascinating is how Krugman, and the link-minded, were deriding rampant overconsumption during the last decade (SUVs, McMansion, and cheap Chinese crap right Chad?), demanding the government action to reduce consumption they viewed as wasteful and unnecessary, but now urge government action to return us to a level of consumption they once viewed as unsustainable. If the people did over consume during the last presidency, then what we’re seeing is a market-induced return to more normal and sustainable consumption levels. The overconsumption they felt the market brought us, and government had to correct, is now being corrected by the market. Of course, government action is also needed to mitigate a market correction as well.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 3:26PM|

Consistency doesn't matter to them, they are pragmatists in the ultimate sense. They use whatever logic "works" to sell big government, even if it blatantly contradicts everything else they have said.

Paul Krugman|1.8.10 @ 5:37PM|

Hey! Trade secrets, bub!

|1.8.10 @ 1:39PM|

You guys are so funny to read with your fantasies about a magical bottomless pit of wealth that need only be tapped by allowing "free markets" to reign supreme. What starry-eyed amateur economists you all are and if you weren't so terribly destructive we could put you all on late nite comedy for a good laugh. No limited "pie" which has to be shared but a magical pot from which everyone can binge to their hearts content. Only one catch, the already wealthy should get the first shot at the pot(or pie) and we'll all just pretend we don't know why it is empty when our turn is supposed to come. What utter BS.

|1.8.10 @ 1:46PM|

David, assertions need reasoning. Welch provided that. Try it sometime, eh?

|1.8.10 @ 2:07PM|

Nic, Welch has unlimited space to flaunt his ignorance. I have a few words. I can back up every word with reality and logic not the fantasy of contradictory reasoning and economic magic.

K-Y|1.8.10 @ 3:20PM|

I can back up every word with reality?

You made milk come out my nose!

The Libertarian Guy|1.8.10 @ 5:38PM|

That would be even more amazing if you weren't drinking milk...

Milk bored|1.8.10 @ 8:49PM|

Are you sure it was milk?

K-Y|1.9.10 @ 3:50AM|

not 100%

K-Y|1.9.10 @ 3:50AM|

not 100%

|1.8.10 @ 1:48PM|

I'm sorry, Davy. We're all full up right now on dumbass trolls who don't know what they are talking about. Maybe if you were gay or a woman or handicapable, you might qualify for consideration under our dumbshit diversity program. But since your initial whiny outburst is the same tired, specious shit we always hear, you're just not diverse enough for us to really consider at this time.

Have a nice time fucking your mom's corpse.

Colon Bowell|1.8.10 @ 10:00PM|

+1

|1.8.10 @ 1:50PM|

So, where do you think your "pie" comes from?

|1.8.10 @ 1:59PM|

I am going to disregard the personal insults because they are even funnier and more illogical than your economics. All free enterprise theory depends on a scarcity of resources, labor and finished products. This is what zero-sum means, you have a philosophy that is contradictory from the start. Now if any of you were smart enough to see that, you wouldn't resort to name-calling. Talk about specious shit, you're the experts.

|1.8.10 @ 2:06PM|

I am going to disregard the personal insults

Which is a lie...

Talk about specious shit

Because you subsequently quote them.

They make a cream for when you get all butthurt. Maybe the government will buy you some.

|1.8.10 @ 2:07PM|

So answer my question. If you are so sure that there is a fixed "pie" of wealth, then you should be able to tell me how big it is and where it comes from.

|1.8.10 @ 2:19PM|

Now you have gained the intelligence to ask a good question. I salute you. Wealth comes from labor and materials only, capital is money and like all money it measures and facilitates the use of labor and materials to create wealth. Each year, a limited amount of goods and services can be produced by the labor and sweat of real workers and materials that they dig, cut or otherwise produce by physical effort. Food, product and services are all limited by labor and material capital. It will always be a zero sum game unless you can find a way to produce something by magic. Money is not magic.

|1.8.10 @ 2:29PM|

But real life is not restricted to one year, and the productivity of workers does not remain fixed. It can be improved through the intelligent use of capital; a use which is choked off when the government steals it.

|1.9.10 @ 4:57PM|

You guys are really dense or so caught up in you political ideology that you can't see real life at all. At a point in time or any chosen time period there is a limited pie, like it or not. Right now it's a shit pie but doesn't matter. You can't steal from the past or borrow from the furure unless you have becaome a (gasp) liberal.

|1.8.10 @ 2:31PM|

"Wealth comes from labor and materials only"

So now we're back to the labor theory of value?

|1.8.10 @ 5:00PM|

Hey, nothing like 1850s economics to demonstrate ones superior and sophisticated knowledge of the field.

|1.8.10 @ 2:31PM|

Clearly, this is the case, because no combination of labor and material is better than any other. We would be just a rich if only we spent all of them forming pyramids, having saved ourselves the trouble of worrying about what people value!

|1.8.10 @ 2:46PM|

I just finished carving a bunch of spears myself, I figure the amount of material and labor I got into them ought to fetch me a high price from the D.O.D.

|1.8.10 @ 4:32PM|

no combination of labor and material is better than any other.

Of course not! Using a hand rake to till the ground isn't more productive than a modern combine!

You are being snarky, right? A person simply couldn't be so stupid as to actually believe such a moronic thing, could they?

|1.8.10 @ 5:48PM|

Of course I am. Did you bother to read the rest of the comment?

|1.8.10 @ 6:28PM|

Of course I am. Did you bother to read the rest of the comment?

I was responding to the troll. I gave a chuckle at the pyramid shot, good one.

Thomas|1.9.10 @ 2:57AM|

Nailed it.

Thomas|1.9.10 @ 2:58AM|

My last comment was supposed to be in reply to Josh Lyle's 2:31 comment.

Butts Wagner|1.8.10 @ 4:01PM|

That "magic" you talk of is human ingenuity. When the assembly line was invented and lowered the cost of goods, it didn't create new money, but it freed up money to be spent elsewhere. Ideas generated in the brains of men allow more and different natural resources to be utilized in the production of goods, creating more goods. Certainly, the number of people available to perform various jobs has not changed, assuming a rapid, efficient change in production methods, but the availability of each person has changed. Just as the amount of resources contained on Earth is finite, the amount of resources that can be put to useful ways in production of goods is ever increasing due to human ingenuity. To limit the pie to the here and now is short sighted.

|1.8.10 @ 5:00PM|

Marxism alert.

John Maynard Keynes|1.8.10 @ 5:40PM|

Even in ghostly protoplasm form, I still manage to bugger the gullible!

Paul Krugman|1.8.10 @ 5:40PM|

Thank you, sir! May I have another?

|1.8.10 @ 6:29PM|

+100

Big John|1.8.10 @ 8:51PM|

Additional bonus: +100

Kevin Bacon|1.9.10 @ 1:04AM|

I do NOT want to be involved in this six degrees shit right now.

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 6:03PM|

David-"Wealth comes from labor and materials only"

Stop channelling Marx.

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 2:13PM|

"All free enterprise theory depends on a scarcity of resources, labor and finished products. This is what zero-sum means"

No.

|1.8.10 @ 2:22PM|

YES.

Zeb|1.8.10 @ 4:54PM|

No, you really don't know what "zero-sum" means. Please stop.

Inigo Montoya|1.8.10 @ 9:49PM|

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 2:19PM|

Re: David Hennessey,

All free enterprise theory depends on a scarcity of resources, labor and finished products.

it doesn't depend on that.

This is what zero-sum means, you have a philosophy that is contradictory from the start.

You are unaware of what "zero-sum" means.

Now if any of you were smart enough to see that, you wouldn't resort to name-calling.

Oh, if only people were as smart as me, they would not envy me so much! This is the burden I carry - I am too precious!

|1.8.10 @ 2:27PM|

Again, no real answer is possible but your adamant denial without the use of reason is standard behavior for people who believe based on faith. I still find this article just as hilarious as I did when I first read it. The personal attacks just convince me that I have struck a nerve.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 2:34PM|

Re: David Hennessy,

Again, no real answer is possible but your adamant denial without the use of reason is standard behavior for people who believe based on faith.

Because you do NOT base your unsubstantiated and unexplained assertions out of faith, right?

I still find this article just as hilarious as I did when I first read it. The personal attacks just convince me that I have struck a nerve.

Yes, because nothing more strikes a nerve than writting an answer to assertions that contains no counterarguments, and then leave saying "I am so clever and you are not!"

|1.8.10 @ 2:59PM|

I didn't leave, I would write a book for you if I thought it would help but what questions do you need answered that are not already quite clear? Wealth is a real good (raw or finished) or a service rendered which requires real labor. Wealth is not money. I know most of you can't see this because money seems to equal wealth in non-economic definitions. Money which has been accumulated by robbing a bank is not creating wealth like money which is accumulated by labor. Money can be stolen or created magically by the Government but it does not increase the wealth, it just devalues the money. Money is not a zero-sum game and that may be your game but it has nothing to do with wealth or the creation of wealth. As another poster pointed out, trading real goods from China for plastic money is not trade and creates no wealth for America but it does create a lot of money for a few non-producers in Government and industry.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 3:18PM|

Again you show your amateur and uninformed nature, accumulating wealth through trade does not require money, and is not a zero sum game.

I'll use apples and bananas again, I can trade my bananas to someone who likes bananas more than apples for apples which I prefer to bananas and we are both better off; our wealth has increased because we have more of what we value.

The reason that we have money and people like to accumulate it is that it is easier to just trade all goods for money than try to barter for everything. A school teacher can't do much with the labor of an autoworker. A childless auto worker has no need of a school teacher. Either they think up some really complex barter scheme involving a third party who both has a kid and needs the labor of an individual autoworker, or we simply use money. This has to of course happen for every good or service the teacher or autoworker may require. Thus money has value because people will trade things for it, and people will trade things for it because to do so is easier than barter.

Wealth isn't created robbing a bank, what a profound insight! Worker's produce can be stolen right out of the factory too but that doesn't mean it isn't valuable. The fact that government has seized a monopoly on the production of money and that it has created easily printable fiat money does not negate that money has value.

Money is just another good, it arose independent of government, as all money is any substance that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services. You clearly have never touched an economic textbook with the garbage you are spouting.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 7:46PM|

Yes, Tim, there are non-zero-sum swaps out there that can make everyone better off. Does anyone deny this? However, if markets are efficient, there can't be too many of these opportunities out there...and surely not enough to solve all our problems.

Here in reality, we have lots of zero-sum choices to make. Do you want to participate in the discussion like an adult, or sit on your pile of gold with a shotgun and just complain?

Do we need more cheap shit from China, more over-sized houses, and more over-sized vehicles? Absolutely not. We need a rational health care system, better K12 education, and to rebuild our infrastructure.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 8:21PM|

I put my money into a bank that lends that money out to other people, so when you tax me more to pay for stimulus packages you are decreasing the amount of money I spend and invest by that same amount. That's what distinguishes Keynesian stimulus from things like infrastructure.

We will only run out of net positive trades when people stop shifting their preferences and when we stop inventing new goods and services all together.

Do we need more "cheap shit from China, more over-sized houses, and more over-sized vehicles"? Probably not, but then again value is subjective and you don't get to inflict your preferences on everyone else. Some people work very hard for their McMansions and over-sized vehicles, and it isn't clear that your social programs will benefit them more than they cost in taxes the way things like a justly sized military and police force would.

Individuals have natural rights that protect them from arbitrary infringement by people who claim that what "we" want is more valuable than their own desires, especially when "we" picks out the most ridiculous desires and juxtaposes them to the most noble community needs in a way that defies reality. The irresponsible rich aren't the only ones who will get taxed, and the needy aren't the only ones who will get handouts. When you reform K-12 education in a way that makes it accountable for all the money it already has, then I'll consider paying more for it.

Adult conversation keeps the insults to a minimum and tries to address logical arguments rather than caricature their opponents as "sitting on a pile of gold with a shotgun and complaining". I just love it when Chad calls us childish after throwing around insults and whining about how it isn't fair.

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 8:32PM|

"Yes, Tim, there are non-zero-sum swaps out there that can make everyone better off. Does anyone deny this? However, if markets are efficient, there can't be too many of these opportunities out there"

[citation needed]

No matter how many times I indirectly trade my skills for groceries, I still keep getting a good deal, from my perspective. Either I'm a lucky bastard, or you're a moron.

"Do we need more cheap shit from China, more over-sized houses, and more over-sized vehicles? Absolutely not. We need a rational health care system, better K12 education, and to rebuild our infrastructure."

Well, I personally would like a larger house, so I have a place for more cheap shit from China. Of course, I don't claim to know what you need, which is more respect than you show anyone else.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 9:38PM|

No matter how many times I indirectly trade my skills for groceries, I still keep getting a good deal, from my perspective. Either I'm a lucky bastard, or you're a moron.

No, you just aren't understanding my point. I am talking about new swaps, not repitition of old ones. The world does not progress if you and I simply swap apples and bananas every week.

And yes, like most people, you want the bigger house (for what reason, I don't know), but you sure in the hell don't want to pay for all the costs that it puts on everyone else.

Yes, we all want the huge mansion on 80 bucolic acres, surrounded by a national park on the west, the ocean on the east, and a metropolis just down the road. Obviously, our goals are conflicting, and we wind up with suburbs, which are the worst of all worlds.

SKR|1.8.10 @ 10:38PM|

No, you just aren't understanding my point. I am talking about new swaps, not repetition of old ones. The world does not progress if you and I simply swap apples and bananas every week.

Actually, it does. Now that I know where I am going to get my apples, I now have time to spend inventing new uses for my time.

Tim2|1.9.10 @ 1:00AM|

I thought your point was to denigrate the concept of efficient markets by pointing out useful innovations and changes in preferences that haven't come about yet.

"if markets are efficient, there can't be too many of these opportunities out there"

What costs are McMansions placing on everyone else? Other than the "opportunity costs" of rich people not giving their money away. I'm fine for regulating them if they pollute btw, and I don't want them getting cheap money from the fed or special tax incentives and transfer payments no one else gets. However provided that they earn the money themselves they aren't hurting anyone, which comes back to the point that Chad doesn't believe it is their money in the first place; because of vague notions of living in society, where such people already pay lots of taxes for a great deal of things besides the military/police/other traditional public goods and a social safety net and they get other wealth through mutually beneficial trade. Homeless people should be happy that such rich people invented a computer so that Chad can blog about giving them more money.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 10:54AM|

What costs are McMansions placing on everyone else?

1: Environmental effects, which you aren't paying for.

2: The fact that everyone else has to drive that much farther to get around your property. One 2.3 person house per acre is sprawl, and creates all sorts of transportation issues.

3: Psychological effects, as everyone else tries to buy an even bigger dick than their neighboring McMansion-owner is flashing to the world.

Libertarianism doesn't even acknowledge that conspicuous consumption (which is negative sum) exists, which is why, of course, that you present no solution to it.

pointing out the obvious|1.9.10 @ 3:16PM|

Well, it looks like this administration is going to 'solve' the problem of conspicuous consumptions.

Make everyone poorer.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 2:47AM|

1. I have stated that I'm not opposed to regulating against environmental pollution that negatively impacts people. This isn't an issue unique to conspicuous spending.

2. Allocation of scarce land resources is solved by the market, and the government can eminent domain land for actual public uses as opposed to just increasing tax revenue.

3. Yes it is true that conspicuous spending can be negative sum, but large houses, SUVs etc have utility as well; you may not like them, but not everything that seems lavish and unnecessary to you is "conspicuous spending". I like boats, and would love to have a Yacht, am I just trying to "buy a big dick" or do I just like boating? Further, it is their money and they can do with it what they damn well please; people don't have a property right to their social status. Otherwise basic upward mobility should be reduced accordingly to whatever half brained negative externality you can come up with due to such people making being rich worth less. I fail to see how simply taking some of rich people's money away will solve this issue and make them better off, while losses of utility on items bought for that purpose and not just status will actually make the rich worse off; and that's the kicker. Chad's not out to solve the problem of rich people getting into negative sum status wars; but to use them to justify wealth redistribution.

So I don't present "a solution" to it because I'm not arrogant enough to try and distinguish between what spending is status based and what is other preference based, and because people don't have a property right to their social status. People aren't slaves to society such that we ought to just maximize societal utility; the only coercive actions that could potentially be justified are those that make everyone better off or at least don't make anyone else worse off. Perhaps in a world of perfect information we could address conspicuous spending, but in the real world where you claim to live we are going to inevitably hurt people who aren't engaging in it. I don't see how the wealthy are better off being taxed more, if we were actually addressing conspicuous spending we would be attempting to prevent them from engaging in meaningless status bidding wars with each other so they had more money to spend on other preferences.

Instead, Chad wants to raise this potential negative sum game to condemn people for buying things he doesn't like and cloak his desire to redistribute wealth under the guise of conspicuous spending. He's attempting to demonize the rich for purchasing things he doesn't like in possibly a wasteful way not even to protect them from themselves but rather just to seize their assets to spend on his pet projects. Markets aren't perfect, but in this highly subjective case of what counts as "conspicuous spending" there is no government solution to it that will do more harm than good. Some items some people buy for status will be bought for others for another reason, negating any ability to pass a hard and fast rule, with the only other solution being to violate the rule of law and just have a bunch of government bureaucrats who "know it when they see it" who will be heavily influenced by personal preferences and have every incentive to seize wealth to merely to justify their bureaucracies existence and to fund the pet projects of those who select them.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 3:20AM|

After reading more of Chad it is important to note that the benefit of such bidding wars is that people work harder, scroll down and see for yourself where he admits people in societies with more coercive wealth redistribution work less; and thus on the benefit side to "conspicuous spending" we should add increased productivity.

|1.9.10 @ 5:10PM|

"I'm fine for regulating them if they pollute btw, and I don't want them getting cheap money from the fed or special tax incentives and transfer payments no one else gets."

OOPS! The true belief of every libertarian slips out. Government is great as long as it does MY bidding. What is pollution? How much Govmint will fix it? Will it be national, state or local legislation? Who will write the legislation and decide who is harming the environment? Presto!You just became a progressive.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 2:52AM|

If you have studied economics rather than just read the cliff notes of Das Capital, you would know that pollution is a form of a negative externality where a third party is harmed by a transaction between two other parties.

Regulating against this is perfectly consistent with libertarian economics and moral principles, the libertarian critique of environmental regulation comes about when government regulates things that don't hurt people or degrade common resources. Or when the inappropriate level of government does so, most environmental regulation is appropriately left to the states unless the damages can be transmitted across state borders.

You don't deserve a response, but maybe by reading them you might actually learn something. I'm a nice guy, so I wouldn't want you to go through life believing in your above absurdities.

|1.10.10 @ 1:42PM|

I only respond to absurdities and most libertarians on this site don't seem to agree that Government does any good, is vital to civilization, in fact, it is the key to all civilized existence. You flay progressives if they want to have the Government do even one thing even if the vast majority of citizens want it. However, if it is something you like, protecting your private wealth. It's great. All we are arguing is how much and what should Government do. That's why I USED to be a libertarian, I didn't realize that many are extremists and anarchists. There is no agreement by libertarians that pollution control by the Government is good. Many believe that property rights are absolute and the correct solution to pollution is private lawsuits. Don't try to speak for other libertarians, speak for yourself.
If I don't deserve a response, don't respond, I didn't ask you to.

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 1:07AM|

So, Chad, should we all live in hovels and drive boring cars, just to satisfy your wealth-envy tendencies?

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 6:12PM|

Chad -"We need a rational health care system, better K12 education, and to rebuild our infrastructure."

Finally something from Chad that i agree with.

But the only way to achieve those results is by getting government out of those areas.

Whether you like it or not, we have 50 years of experience that shows conclusively that more government spending produces worse results.

|1.9.10 @ 9:59PM|

Your idea of a creating wealth through trading bananas and apples is great. I trade you my apples for bananas and we are both wealthier but our tastes change so I trade my bananas back and we both come out ahead again. At the rate we're creating new wealth now we can retire after a few more trades.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 3:19PM|

Re: David Hennessy,

I didn't leave, I would write a book for you if I thought it would help but what questions do you need answered that are not already quite clear?

Please, shower me with your knowledge, oh sage one!

Wealth is a real good (raw or finished) or a service rendered which requires real labor.

Sure! I mean, a shit pie is real, so it must be wealth . . . right?

I am guessing you subscribe to the Marxian Labor Theory of Value.

Wealth is not money.

That much we can say.

I know most of you can't see this because money seems to equal wealth in non-economic definitions.

Don't presume to know what others can or cannot see - you would have to ask everybody else. I *know* money is not wealth, it only represents wealth.

Money which has been accumulated by robbing a bank is not creating wealth like money which is accumulated by labor.

Well, robbing a bank is an example of a zero-sum game.

As another poster pointed out, trading real goods from China for plastic money is not trade and creates no wealth for America

You misunderstood the other poster's point. Wealth is being created and that is what the Chinese are doing - exchanging goods for payment. The wealth destruction process is the government devaluing the currency, which is a way of stealing value from the Chinese, another example of a zero-sum game. But all other things being equal, the Chinese obtained what they wanted and the Americans obtained what they wanted - that is NOT a zero-sum game.

|1.8.10 @ 4:10PM|

I didn't want to make it too complicated for you, but a "good" implies something that the owner of it thinks is "good." I would give you my shit sandwich for free if I was stupid enough to make one. Sophomoric argument. You seem to agree with everything else I said except the point about China which is vital to understand. You think we came out ahead by trading useless money for valuable goods? The trade is not complete when any non-valuable, non-real entity like money or promises is traded for something real. The trade will be completed when we produce and ship some real goods that China wants. We won't get anything additional for all that stuff that we owe to China because we already got paid with real stuff. now we have to pay back and that, my friend, is a bitch.

|1.8.10 @ 5:02PM|

Someone else already wrote the book you got your economics from. It's called Das Capital and no economist takes it seriously anymore.

One of the most annoying things in academia is the way people who read Marx insist on believing they are smarter than everyone else, all evidence to the contrary.

Kolohe|1.9.10 @ 7:07AM|

Das Kapital is OK, there are some worthwhile anaytical insights to even the modern reader.

It's the Communist Manifesto that's a load of horsehockey with totally wrong conclusions.

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 6:15PM|

Das Kapital is OK

Its great for insomniacs.

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 7:51PM|

"I know most of you can't see this because money seems to equal wealth in non-economic definitions. "

Wow, you haven't the slightest clue of what most us around here think, do you? You realize, do you not David, that it has been consistently the libertarian community pointing out that *money* is not the same thing as wealth, and thus printing massive amounts of it without actually expanding the amount of available goods in the world does nothing but inflate the price of those goods - which ironically serves to make it more difficult for the poor to have decent lifestyles. Additionally, since most massive Keynesian-approved printings of money get filtered through the investment banks (since that's how the central bank concept works), it is the already rich who benefit most from the government's counterfeiting.

Now... That said, you have to be the most retarded sumbitch on the planet not to realize that the wealth in the world available to people is *not* zero-sum! If there was a fixed pie of real wealth (as you yourself noted, this means tangible goods like housing, food & clothing), then we'd have never made it into the 21st Century, much less seen the human population expand to 7+ Billion people.

When new ideas and innovations are discovered, like better supply-chains, assembly lines and automated production processes, more of that real wealth is produced per capita - thus the "pie" grows. If the money supply stayed the same (i.e. if the Fed wasn't busy printing a shitload of money every year to fund whatever the current pet project of government is), then the increase in supply of available goods means that *everything* gets cheaper.

It's pretty simple actually...

The Gobbler|1.8.10 @ 2:56PM|

Good day fine sir!

What was silica sand worth 10,000 years ago and how was it used. What is it worth now and how is it used? Do we now have more or less silica sand than we did 10,000 years ago?

Here's some study material for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand

Show your work.

|1.8.10 @ 3:00PM|

15 years ago I planted tweny-four fruit trees on my property (apples, pears, peaches, cherries, apricots, etc.). I'm not making this up, I really planted them. On the day I planted them, I could not make any pies. But now, 15-years later, I have more fruit than I could ever use for pies so I share it with my neighbors (to be fair, they have to pick it).

So given your economic perspective how the fuck could that have even happened?

K-Y|1.8.10 @ 3:28PM|

I want to be your neighbor.

|1.8.10 @ 5:09PM|

I live in Minneapolis so you might want to reconsider. It's damn cold.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 2:42PM|

Economics being a zero sum game is not proved by there being a finite amount of matter in the universe, or at least within man's reach.

The value of various goods and services is subjective to the person consuming them, and therefore people can trade finite amounts of goods and services in a way that increases the goods and services' value to the participants in trade. Social welfare is thus increased by allocating finite resources to those who value them the most. If I like apples more than I like bananas, and someone else likes bananas more than they like apples we can trade and both be better off.

There are some circumstances where government can intervene to promote social welfare because characteristics of certain goods prevent markets from functioning or functioning well; but those circumstances are the exception, not the rule, and often, especially as technology progresses, the costs of government intervention outweigh the gains in efficiency that government could theoretically create.

You are the amateur economist.

|1.8.10 @ 4:35PM|

You are the amateur economist.

No, he is an idiot troll and nothing more.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 2:47PM|

Here are the answers, David:

All free enterprise theory depends on a scarcity of resources, labor and finished products.

Free Enterprise is based on detection of opportunities whenever there is a situation of higher scarcity (high demand) for a certain good. Economics is the science of how man deals with scarcity. You are just conflating two different things.

PRODUCTION is what creates wealth. Wealth is allocated through free markets, through free exchange which satisfies needs and wants.

This is what zero-sum means, you have a philosophy that is contradictory from the start.

Again, you are totally misunderstanding the concept of zero-sum. A Zero-sum game is when two parties do not exchange (i.e. one takes from the other, or none do anything). Instead, when there IS exchange, both parties obtain something that was MORE desired than the good they parted with.

You think of resources as something that is constant and non changing. This only shows your utter lack of knowledge in economics. Only something that is valued is a resource. Value is subjective, depends on the eye of the beholder. So, only people that value the resources consider them as resources. This means that ANYTHING, at ANY TIME, can be a resource. A long time ago, fish sauce was a resource for tasty meals for the Romans. People do not deal as much on fish sauce, for the simple reason that people do not value the good that much.

The idea of a limited pool of resources is childish - it indicates a total misunderstanding of how people value things. You would have to start from zero in order to understand, because you lack knowledge, and I am saying this as a matter of fact, not to insult you. There are ample resources on economics that are free, but I would suggest you read "I, Pencil" by Leonard Reed, which you can download for free.

Now if any of you were smart enough to see that, you wouldn't resort to name-calling.

If you did not start your posting by saying that everybody here is a fool, maybe you could have started a conversation and learned something.

SKR|1.8.10 @ 10:23PM|

This is definitely the most funny thing I read all day.

|1.8.10 @ 1:57PM|

The argument here isn't that a free market creates a utopia. The argument is that the market will act in uncontrollable ways either way, but at least a true free market respects individual property rights. To me it's a bigger problem when institutions screw up then when individuals screw up.

Yes, the free market can do a lot of good, but that also involves patience through rough spots and an understanding that more output requires more input. Neither the government or free market can create wealth on its own. Individual actions are required to make it all work. However, the government is great at crushing the individual for the power of the state, which deters individuals from building more wealth.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 2:13PM|

Re: David Hennessy,

You guys are so funny to read with your fantasies about a magical bottomless pit of wealth that need only be tapped by allowing "free markets" to reign supreme.

They're not "bottomless" - the pits have a bottom and wealth appears magically after people say the magic words: "Let's Trade."

|1.8.10 @ 2:40PM|

Again, nice try but the wealth has to already exist in order for anybody to say, "Let's Trade" Trading does not produce the wealth, it redistributes the wealth and gives "traders" a chunk for their role in the exchange. The "traders" like to pretend that they have actually created the products or services but that was done by workers. I know some of you are a little sensitive because you live off the labors of others so workers, who know that we are the actual producers of wealth, have to be put down and kept down. Won't work.

|1.8.10 @ 2:46PM|

You know, history isn't on your side. Nor are most economists. You're getting annoyed with people attacking you, but you're only making bald assertions based on assumptions that are wholly not of this world. Otherwise, you're not making much sense.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 7:48PM|

90% of economists support some sort of price on carbon...why don't you listen to your gods when they don't toe the conservative line?

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 8:41PM|

Presumably they're taking the question of carbon (dioxide) as a pollutant as a given, as it's outside of their field of study.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 9:39PM|

Naah, they take the odds given to them by science.

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 10:21PM|

Was that supposed to be a rebuttal? Because it sounds like you said the same thing as me, only with different (to be fair, perhaps clearer) language.

Tim2|1.9.10 @ 1:02AM|

People might be more receptive if you were less of snarky a-hole. Would it really kill you to drop the accusations of childishness, shot gun and gold hoarding, and the needless adding of words like naah before your posts.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 1:53PM|

I would reply that I am less snarky when debating adults, but that would be snarky. Or I could reply that religious zealots deserve a little snark, but that would be just too much fun.

I understand your keen belief that markets would just be the best thing ever if only the government got out of the way. I thought so too, when I was a dumb teenager. Then I grew up, and realized neither real people nor the real world come anywhere near matching the assumptions of your theory.

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 6:23PM|

Chad-"I thought so too, when I was a dumb teenager. Then I grew up..."

"I thought so too, when I was a dumb teenager. Then I grew up went to work for government..."

You had a typo that i fixed for you.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 7:40PM|

I work in the private sector, silly goose.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 3:09AM|

So basically you can act like a child because you perceive your opponents to be children because they consider that they have a right to keep what they earn and don't want to submit to a coercive authority that gets to arbitrarily determine what constitutes fairness? Of course, your definition of a child is anyone who disagrees with you; thats pretty convenient isn't it? In others words, you aren't bound by any rules of respectable debate unless the people you are debating agree with you, in which case it isn't really a debate.

Thats sounds pretty childish to me. Don't let me stop you from hurling insults, talking down to people, bullying those who you disagree with, and then running to mommy government to because you see something that isn't fair! Adults realize that in the real world outcomes aren't always equal and in that sense it will never be "fair". The real world can never produce true equality of opportunity either, some people will always be as you say "lucky"; the problem is that when it tries to it inevitably reduces opportunity by stifling growth and innovation as it destroys the incentives for those who would otherwise be lucky to take advantage of that luck which can rarely be done without hard work which is far from costless. You don't even restrict yourself to minor amounts of redistribution, instead you want to actively micromanage the economy and peoples' lives because you think you know better than they do; and that has nothing to do with fighting against established privilege or circumstance. You just throw up a million issues hoping that one will stick and give you the power to do everything you want which often has nothing to do with the problems you suggest or helping the people you claim are suffering from such problems.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 11:30AM|

they consider that they have a right to keep what they earn

No, I consider you childen because you think that you have "earned" everything you manage to get your hands on, when in fact, what you get hold of is intimately tied with innumerable factors beyond your control, and the very structure of society and your place in it.

The real world can never produce true equality of opportunity either, some people will always be as you say "lucky"; the problem is that when it tries to it inevitably reduces opportunity by stifling growth and innovation as it destroys the incentives for those who would otherwise be lucky to take advantage of that luck which can rarely be done without hard work which is far from costless

And now you re-iterate the second core mistake of libertarianism. In this case you are qualitatively correct but quantitatively wrong. Yes, higher tax rates and a broader re-distribution of incomes does de-incentivise success. But how much? The evidence suggests not much at all. People who are innovators do so intrinsically, and extrinsic financial rewards are not highly motivating to them, and may indeed muddle their thinking.

MJ|1.9.10 @ 2:26PM|

Most forms of carbon which I have a use for have a price.

The economists you touting are advocating an arbitrarily determined cost to my use of said carbon products, which has no relation to my use of them.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 2:56PM|

Re: David Hennessy,

Trading does not produce the wealth, it redistributes the wealth and gives "traders" a chunk for their role in the exchange.

You're only thinking in terms of middlemen, David. This is very limited - your limited knowledge or bias does not let you see that trade is between two parties.

When a person trades, be it his goods or his services, he is trading something he values LESS than the item or service he expects to receive, otherwise he would NOT trade. The other party also expects to gain from the exchange. Both parties are better off because now they both have something they desired.

The "traders" like to pretend that they have actually created the products or services but that was done by workers.

Who is talking about workers? Trade is not necessarily between a person and a trader. Besides this, laborers trade their labor for pecuniary compensation.

You also totally misunderstand what "wealth" means. For something to be wealth, it has to be wanted, to be valued, by someone. Laborers working day and night making things that people do not want are NOT creating wealth.

I know some of you are a little sensitive because you live off the labors of others

Sure, we're angry because you called us out as slave holders! Yeah, that's the reason - NOTHING to do with your own ignorance and arrogance - nah.

[S]o workers, who know that we are the actual producers of wealth, have to be put down and kept down. Won't work.

Indeed! Because the workers already KNOW what it is to be produced, but these greedy capitalists just take the fruits of their labor!

Yep - workers know how to build cars and stoves and toilets because they know everything. Oh, don't mind the designers and the salespeople and the investors that buy the machines . . . they are not wealth creators.

|1.8.10 @ 3:38PM|

I didn't know you were all non-workers, or slave holders as you describe yourself. Perhaps the discussion wouldn't be so acrimonious if you didn't despise workers so much. I don't despise traders, their chunk of the wealth is appropriate but their claim that their chunk of the wealth can be unlimited without limiting the wealth that others can possess and use is the ridiculous part of the argument. I only point out the failing in logic. I don't argue against free enterprise, it is unassailable, just for it to be honestly and logically discussed. The point of this article was to suggest that we (or liberals)use the zero-sum argument for Government spending which is totally opposed to the rest of the article which says there is no such thing. So, logically, unlimited Government spending should create more wealth just like private spending. Is it zero-sum or not? Government spending may be wrong if it doesn't produce the "right" goods and services while unchecked free markets do a better job. Your logic then is that the democratic choices of free people should be ignored while the theory of magical free markets should prevail. I trust the American people, if given a free choice, should decide how much of the nations wealth should be spent on things we agree to value highly (whether welfare or highways) and that and the rest (the majority) should be left to those who have some to spend as markets decide. Simple democracy.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 3:55PM|

Re: David Hennessy,

I didn't know you were all non-workers, or slave holders as you describe yourself.

You better dust off your sarcasm-detector, David, otherwise you can be taken as a person with no sense of humor.

Perhaps the discussion wouldn't be so acrimonious if you didn't despise workers so much.

Yes, that's right - we hate workers. That must be it - good theory there, Sherlock.

I don't despise traders, their chunk of the wealth is appropriate but their claim that their chunk of the wealth can be unlimited without limiting the wealth that others can possess and use is the ridiculous part of the argument.

It is indeed ridiculous in the sense that nobody has made that argument. Traders can only trade what they possess, so they cannot presume (nor can you) that they can achieve unlimited wealth - that term is meaningless.

The point of this article was to suggest that we (or liberals)use the zero-sum argument for Government spending which is totally opposed to the rest of the article which says there is no such thing.

You totally misinterpreted the article and the points. The argument is not that there is no such thing as a zero-sum game, the argument is that people that say the market is a zero-sum game fail to recognize the ZERO-SUM game that is government thievery and spending.

So, logically, unlimited Government spending should create more wealth just like private spending.

Private spending does not create wealth, so logically the argument is wrong. It is PRODUCTION that creates wealth, not spending.

Is it zero-sum or not? Government spending may be wrong if it doesn't produce the "right" goods and services while unchecked free markets do a better job.

You totally miss the point - the government cannot PRODUCE wanted goods. If the government MAKES you buy their goods, then they cannot be said to be "wanted."

The term "Unchecked Free Markets" is meaningless, since it conveys a false idea that markets are wild and unpredictable, when in fact they operate on the base of well determined rules: You only trade when you do so freely, and you only trade that which is yours.

Your logic then is that the democratic choices of free people should be ignored while the theory of magical free markets should prevail.

The choices in a market are democratic - people vote with their wallets. I do not understand why you think markets and democracy are mutually exclusive.

I trust the American people, if given a free choice, should decide how much of the nations wealth should be spent on things we agree to value highly (whether welfare or highways) and that and the rest (the majority) should be left to those who have some to spend as markets decide. Simple democracy.

Giving people the choice to determine what to do with things that do not belong to them cannot be a fair nor a just system. It that is your idea of what "democracy" means, I don't want to participate in your private hell.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 3:59PM|

people vote with their wallets. I do not understand why you think markets and democracy are mutually exclusive.

As people have differing amounts of money in their wallets, this form of voting is inherently undemocratic. Perhaps you meant plutocratic?

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 4:13PM|

Re: Tony,

As people have differing amounts of money in their wallets, this form of voting is inherently undemocratic. Perhaps you meant plutocratic?

Aboslutely correct! I mean, rich people get to hoard all the cheese puffs with their purchasing power, so how can we the teeming millions change the production patterns of the Cheese Puffs factory?

Since people UNIFORMLY buy the SAME products regardless of tastes, regions, wants or desires, people with MORE money get more production-deciding power! Right! See, makes sense, Tony! Gotcha!

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 8:13PM|

Incidentally Tony, let's just look at two concepts of products - the infamous "Cheese Puffs" and a diamond encrusted watch.

Only the plutocrats can afford the watch, but their buying power is much greater - so by your statement above, we should assume that the market would be flooded with diamond-encrusted watches... That's what rich people want, right?

Strangely, that's not the case. It's the Cheese Puffs that sell for $2.00 a bag that are widely available.

Why would that be?

Could it possibly be that selling a product cheaply ($2.00/bag) to millions of people would produce a lot more end-benefit to a producer than selling a few thousand really expensive products per year? Oh, I think so.

Zeb|1.8.10 @ 5:09PM|

Oh for fuck's sake. The Nation doesn't have wealth. Individual people who live in it do. The democratic choices of free people to do things with other people's money should damn well be ignored.

Banjos Kick Ass!|1.8.10 @ 3:02PM|

Generating “wealth" alone means nothing if there is no value to said "wealth". Wealth does not become wealth until someone values it as such. There is infinite wealth, even in a primitive society, as long as individuals value things. If I value the pointy stick you picked up in the forest and wish to have it, well dag nabbit, that be wealth! So your laborers can labor all day, but what they create does not become wealth until someone else values it.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 3:46PM|

This uber-relativistic notion ignores the fact that in a society it is generally agreed-upon what constitutes wealth, and also that certain things are basic necessities that aren't valued merely on whims.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 3:59PM|

Re: Tony,

Society agrees nothing - it is individuals who decide what are resources and goods for each of them based on their own "whims", as you say. If many people agree that they value certain goods more than others, then you have a convergence of tastes or wants, but that does not mean those goods are wealth by their own virtue.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 4:03PM|

The value of, say, potable water to human beings isn't dependent on a convergence of tastes. It is absolute.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 4:11PM|

Re: Tony,

The value of, say, potable water to human beings isn't dependent on a convergence of tastes. It is absolute.

Of course it is! You're absolutely right! I mean, it is not like water along the Great Lakes doesn't have the same high value as in the middle of the Sahara! NO! Its value is A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E!

Absolutely.

Colonel_Angus|1.8.10 @ 4:19PM|

If I had possession of all the potable water on earth sealed in some humongous tank, which I obtained without coercion, it is my right to decide whether I exchange any of it for anything. It is not my failure to give you water that caused you to die of thirst, it is your failure to come up with anything that I would be willing to exchange the water for that killed you.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 4:26PM|

Re: Colonel_Angus,

If I had possession of all the potable water on earth sealed in some humongous tank, which I obtained without coercion, it is my right to decide whether I exchange any of it for anything.

Would that be assuming you had IP protection from the government so that nobody tried to copy your idea and made their OWN potable water?

Just to know, so that we can have the complete picture here . . .

Colonel_Angus|1.8.10 @ 4:40PM|

Whatever unpotable water is made potable, I just buy up immediately and transport it to my libertarian colony on Mars. Tony can have some if he goes to Mars, but he gets to figure out how he survives the long trip without water.

Banjos Kick Ass!|1.8.10 @ 4:59PM|

If water became so rare, then I am sure the #1 priority of all humans would instantly become ways to create water. So scientists would find it quite profitable to combine oxygen and hydrogen or find other scientific means to extract/create water, or discover ways to survive without water (hey if you get to create an outlandish scenario, then the answer is allowed to be an equally outlandish).

pointing out the obvious|1.9.10 @ 3:37PM|

Indeed. We must have a UN convention on this. UNPEWTM.

I'm sure it would prevent such abuses.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 6:31PM|

If you did possess all the potable water, it is highly unlikely you acquired it by any means that would make it morally justifiable for you to keep it. Libertarians love to conveniently ignore all the ways people have and get wealth that isn't personal ingenuity.

|1.9.10 @ 5:25PM|

Boy, you are the biggest dumb-ass to ever walk the earth if you think I won't come and get MY water. The fact that you were stupid enough to pay money for it when you know that I'm not gonna let myself die because you have some bogus deed to water blows me away. I die to protect your right of private ownership? You have no values at all.

Zenmaster|1.11.10 @ 1:10PM|

...and the Straw Man comes dancing in...

Ska|1.8.10 @ 4:20PM|

Do you really think the value of water is absolute? That it isn't more valuable in some places when compared to others?

Ska|1.8.10 @ 4:22PM|

That's what happens when you don't refresh.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 4:57PM|

I mean absolute relative to any individual. A certain (more or less) fixed amount is needed by each person per day. It's not something people can decide to stop valuing.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 5:08PM|

Re: Tony,

I mean absolute relative to any individual.

If the value is absolute, you don't have to see it relative to anything - it is absolute.

A certain (more or less) fixed amount is needed by each person per day. It's not something people can decide to stop valuing.

That's not the point - you have not understand anything. People value things at the margin. Watre may be more valuable to a Beduin than to a person living near an almost limitless supply through a creek. There is no such thing as an absolute value in economic terms.

prolefeed|1.8.10 @ 5:12PM|

I mean absolute relative to any individual. A certain (more or less) fixed amount is needed by each person per day. It's not something people can decide to stop valuing.

So people don't stop watering their lawns when the price of water increases, or buy more water-efficient washing machines, or wash their cars less, or any of the multitude of uses of water that swamp the tiny amount used for drinking?

prolefeed|1.8.10 @ 5:09PM|

The value of, say, potable water to human beings isn't dependent on a convergence of tastes. It is absolute.

Because the only possible use of water is to drink it. Nobody has alternate uses of this scarce resource, such as irrigation, laundry, swimming pools. No, the only possible valuation of water is the value placed by drinking it -- and people in the middle of the Sahara have the exact same valuation of drinking water as rich people who have cases of Perrier in the house.

And tap water is exactly the same value as Perrier ...

And ... (repeat Tony's ignorant economic assumptions as needed)

Tony|1.8.10 @ 5:46PM|

You're twisting my point all around. I'm trying to say that value is not always 100% relative or whimsical in every circumstance. Of course, water is a resource like any other and its value is thus effected by its supply. But that's only so after you have enough to survive on, until which point it's exactly the same value for everyone (which is to say priceless).

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 6:15PM|

Re: Tony,

You're twisting my point all around. I'm trying to say that value is not always 100% relative or whimsical in every circumstance.

And everybody is trying to tell you that value is subjective, that is, 100% whim. Things do NOT have intrinsic value, Tony.

Of course, water is a resource like any other and its value is thus effected by its supply. But that's only so after you have enough to survive on, until which point it's exactly the same value for everyone (which is to say priceless).

If what you're saying is that one glass of water is not the same as 100 glasses of water, then you're right - and that is the exact point everybody has been trying to put through your thick skull: That people value things at THE MARGIN.

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 10:46PM|

The labor required to produce potable water isn't a constant from place to place, so even by the labor theory of value, the value of water isn't absolute.

Certainly the subjective value of potable water isn't fixed for even one person -- otherwise, any one person would be willing to buy as much water as you could sell them, so long as you kept the price below that amount. The curve of marginal utility gain versus marginal decrease in thirst might be similar for most people, but that's a different matter altogether -- the price would still fluctuate based on supply and demand in such a case.

Banjos Kick Ass!|1.8.10 @ 4:11PM|

"certain things are basic necessities that aren't valued merely on whims"

Just because something is a necessity still does not make it wealth. We need air to breath, but we are not trading air because it is so plentiful. If a society generates more food than the world wants or needs, than food no longer becomes wealth as it is so plentiful. If we have more homes than people, then a home no longer becomes wealth. Just like how having air is not considered wealth. We might agree upon what our bodies need to survive, but just because it is a necessity does not make it "wealth".

"society it is generally agreed-upon what constitutes wealth"

Right, but laborers do not know what to produce until there is a want for it, a value for it. And how do we as a public value something as wealth? Not because laborers produce it, but because we value it. The internet was created by the government back in 1957, but it did not become useful or valued (wealth) until we as a public found a use for it.

And you are ignoring ebay. Someone's junk is another man's treasure and what not. I promise you that what I am willing to pay for something is drastically different from what you are willing to pay something as we value different things, unless you treasure banjos, then we might be in agreement.

The Gobbler|1.8.10 @ 3:06PM|

"I know some of you are a little sensitive because you live off the labors of others so"

Righto! I live off of the wealth (and labor) that a man accumulated back in the 19th century. And let me tell you, it is fucking awesome!

|1.8.10 @ 10:00PM|

I don't care who you are - that's funny! Two thumbs up, TGob

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 7:58PM|

Oi, you're dense, David. The "workers" aren't the ones who come up with the idea to produce the goods, generally speaking, nor are they the ones who come up with the initial development capital to put together the necessary resources and they're also not the ones who provide direction for the company.

You're just getting into Labor Theory of Value shit now, and it's pretty ridiculous.

|1.9.10 @ 7:00PM|

Your definition of "worker" needs some serious rethinking. An entrepreneur, a self-employed individual and a ditch digger are all workers. The ditchdigger doesn't expect or demand that he get as much as the owner because the owner probably works harder, has more risk and responsibility and is putting in raw materials. I want the workers, both management and labor, to share the rewards. I don't know what Labor Theory of Value is but it probably is ridiculous. Perhaps some old school communist still has you bogged down in a discredited definition of "worker". It's not mine. You are absolutely wrong, the "workers" (who started the business), did come up with the idea, the resources and capital. The "employees" ARE the "employers" in many small businesses. The reason most small businesses don't have the ability to pay their workers, including themselves, as much as market forces should allow is the corporate welfare that gives big businesses with lobbyists a huge, unnatural edge. A ditorted market is not a free or effective market.

Sean W. Malone|1.9.10 @ 8:24PM|

Ugh... David... The fact that you don't realize that the thing you're arguing is essentially labor theory of value, and that that makes no damn sense (and that it was a major platform of Marxian economics) makes you basically ineligible to have a real conversation on this playing field.

You're arguing the discredited idea that you *suggest* above, rightfully, has been discredited without realizing that that's what you're doing.

And for the record, the reason I put "worker" in quotation marks is precisely BECAUSE I realize that management, CEOs, entrepreneurs & investors are all workers too! The free market system DOES reward all players - that's the whole point!

Investors and innovators, entrepreneurs, management... All these people are doing important jobs that the Marxist position discounts entirely favoring the idea that the "real" workers are just those on the ground - the ditch diggers.

And as for the corporate welfare bit - YOU NAILED IT!

Well done, David. Now you've discovered what it is that libertarians have been saying for decades! But now all you need to do here is to figure out that it's not the free market that hands out special deals backed by law - which lobbyists lobby for - but it is, in fact, GOVERNMENT!...

Don't you realize that everything in your above post is exactly what most of us have been saying to you? A distorted market ISN'T an effective of free market. And a distorted market is only possible when government is allowed to write and pass legislation effecting what people are allowed to do with their own time & money. We don't have a free market in the US, and we haven't had anything resembling one for around 100 years. But that's a direct consequence of increased government power - and yes, corporations often lobby for this government power because it tends to benefit them. That's why prominent libertarian and Nobel economist, Milton Friedman said (in 1978):

"Business corporations in general are not defenders of free enterprise. On the contrary, they are one of the chief sources of danger....Every businessman is in favor of freedom for everybody else, but when it comes to himself that's a different question. We have to have that tariff to protect us against competition from abroad. We have to have that special provision in the tax code. We have to have that subsidy."

I'm not sure what strawman you're debating, David, but it certainly hasn't reflected libertarian philosophy, sound economics or... notably... anything I've said.

What's all the more impressive is that you readily admit to being woefully ignorant of the subject on which you are debating, and yet that still doesn't deter you from acting like you are smarter than everyone else. Kind of hilarious really.

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 8:46PM|

Trading takes effort (labor), which means that, according to you, trade itself is a form of wealth, created through the labor of merchants.

Without the "trade" product, the good produced by the worker is just sitting in his shop or factory. Unless he built it for personal use, that good is useless without the final piece.

pointing out the obvious|1.9.10 @ 3:30PM|

I suggest you try to make something, and on principal, not get a phone, any advertisements, or anyone to sell what you make.

Come back in a year or two and tell us how you did.

And as for trade, have you ever looked at the financial health, working conditions, job opportunities and the like of any protected industry? You will see the total opposite of what you seem to intuitively believe.

As for the US gutting their industrial base and moving it to China, I suggest you try to drum up investment, buy land, build a plant, etc. to make something in the continental US. California, for example. And you will see why it happens.

Dk

High Everybody!|1.8.10 @ 2:49PM|

"one catch, the already wealthy should get the first shot at the pot(or pie)"

Can I get a pot pie?

|1.8.10 @ 4:26PM|

Okay, everyone... Here's the 'magic' we've all heard about. (Fortunately, it only takes a knowledge of third grade math to follow along.)
Say I produce 10,000 widgets per year, and it costs me $1M to make them. I sell them at $120 each clearing a nice, tidy $200K profit. One day I figure out that by by merely rearranging my workers more efficiently I can produce 10,500 widgets each year. I have effectively created an extra $60K per year out of NOTHING -- No extra labor and no extra raw materials. How is that possible?
It's called, "innovation" and just as the sun continually adds value to the economy by transforming valueless seeds into valuable foods, our minds (when freely allowed to) can create wealth without taking anything away from anyone.

|1.8.10 @ 5:06PM|

Um.. I think you meant kindergarten, not third-grade. You have just devalued your own hard labor to "NOTHING". "No extra labor, no extra raw materials." A third-grader would ask how you rearranged a 200 million dollar a year business by thinking. We all have wonderful ideas and some of them are even good but not until you put an enormous amount of real labor of your own and of many others to put the ideas into practice. Innovation, if put into practice, is work and it is a source of wealth. It is not 'magic'. You must define work as something that only hourly workers do, not so.

|1.8.10 @ 6:43PM|

I happen to have children in first and fourth grade right now, so I think I know what math they're doing. Also, since you have multiplied 10,000 by $120 and ended up with $200 million, it's evident you dozed through those years yourself.

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 8:25PM|

Funny thing about that... Rearranging a business by thinking is pretty much how it's done all the time, David. You're not going to rearrange a business successfully *without* thinking, and the fact that you seem to believe that it's just the "labor" that does these things, or that Sean L's scenario would just require workers to put in extra hours just goes to show how little experience in this world you have entirely.

If I create an auto-manufacture business and am building 10 cars a week with a production and an assembly line of 50 people, and I'm making some profits, then I have some options with those profits...

I could just give it all away in bonuses... Or I could buy back equity in my company from my investors... Or I could blow it on an end-of-the-year party (as many of the companies I've worked for have done, depressingly enough)... Or..... I could invest in some new capital machinery - like a robot. So that next year, I still have 50 workers, but now we're making 10 cars a day.

The workers don't have to work any harder... But we're making more product, which means that there's more available for people out there in the world at cheaper prices... More wealth, no extra work. As a result of thinking, and determining a more efficient way of producing goods.

|1.10.10 @ 1:55PM|

Funny thing about you, you either never worked for a living or have forgotten just how much work it is to take a business that is running on one model of production and shifting to some better method. You might only do the inspiration part, that's what I like to do also, and that is work also but putting it into practice is risky and requires more labor. It is no different than the initial start-up, it is not guaranteed success and money in the bank, wake up to the real world.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 3:43PM|

"Never worked for a living"... HA...

My first paid job was detassling corn when I was 15... I haven't stopped working for a living since, jackass.

The point is that without the idea the labor is meaningless!

What I do for a living now, fortunately (and after years of study), is compose music and produce multimedia - and like anything, it's always the idea development part that's the really difficult part. Once the ideas are down correctly, the production part is relatively easy.

Yes, labor is required to do things... Shocking. But without the initial idea, and subsequent planning, labor either has nothing to do - or acts wastefully, carrying out meaningless projects. No one's saying that it's not important, but the *thinking* part is actually the key that starts the engine and without it, nothing else takes place. Undirected labor is largely useless.

|1.10.10 @ 4:54PM|

Jackass yourself! I like the idea of exchanging insults along with each response. It's kind of like the free set of steak knives. Useless, but free.
Sorry we can't send you back to the fields...oops... that's what Stalin did. Of course, we wouldn't do that but the reason why some have wanted to is extrememy evident by your response. I KNOW about detassling corn and you only did it for a short time while you were very young, strong and limber. It's easy to devalue the work of those children when you will never have to do it again. Some people do jobs like that all their lives, twelve hours aday without bathrooms or breaks. That why some recommend that elitist be forced to experience what competition for labor means in the absence of labor laws. Anyone who proposes laws or deregulation should EXPERIENCE the real results of libertarianism. You sitting around having ideas and others sweating and suffering to bring them to life. Of course, your work is the hard part, no one would think of leaving their factory job or fields to trade jobs with you. Come on, get serious.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 10:43PM|

That whole post was entirely irrelevant.

I'd suggest you watch Free to Choose... You can see the difference more libertarian policies make compared to more totalitarian ones. Hong Kong vs. China, for example. I don't really understand how you don't realize that you're actually the elitist, supporting policies that tell people what to do for what you perceive of as for "their own good".

Oh well.

And btw, I do 100% of the physical work to carry out my "ideas" as well. I was merely pointing out that the ideas are the difficult part of the job, and the labor, while sometimes tedious and even boring in some ways - cannot happen until the ideas are in place. No one "suffers" to bring my ideas to life. The worst that happens is someone has to play some music they don't really like. OMG! But since I am pretty much a one man show even that doesn't happen.

Part of your problem is that you only perceive of labor as being physical toil - most American labor doesn't remotely fit that category in any case, a lot of it having been replaced by machines (another way that intellect has overcome brute force as wealth has grown, allowing people to have much cushier, more comfortable gigs here in the states). But to paraphrase Milton Friedman, where you find the most misery and grinding human poverty is precisely in those places that depart from recognizing private property and a relatively wide amount of liberty.

Maoist China, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan... These are the places people are worst off. Wherever trade is embraced, people's standard of living improves... Modern China, Estonia, Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, post 1991 India, and on and on...

The people who experience the real results of more freedom are consistently immensely better off than they were previous to that. History has vindicated the basic libertarian position a thousand times over.

It's observable on every continent, in every culture, every country, state & township. There are as good side-by-side comparisons as you will ever get strewn about history. East vs. West Berlin, North vs. South Korea, Venezuela vs. Costa Rica, Estonia vs. Latvia... Etc.

Your ignorance of economics notwithstanding, your ignorance of the modern world is equally astounding.

Patriot Henry|1.8.10 @ 9:00PM|

"No limited "pie" which has to be shared but a magical pot from which everyone can binge to their hearts content. "

It's not a pot. Society (people + the world's resources) is a system which can grow pots, food, stoves, etc. Everyone can't merely binge because the system requires work to gain the increased resources.

"Only one catch, the already wealthy should get the first shot at the pot(or pie) and we'll all just pretend we don't know why it is empty when our turn is supposed to come. What utter BS."

The wealth of one man never impedes another from gaining wealth unless the wealthy man uses the wealth to support acts of fraud and or force to steal from those who seek wealth.

|1.11.10 @ 2:06PM|

Only one catch, the already wealthy should get the first shot at the pot

No that's what you want. The already wealthy are the ones that want bigger and bigger government to protect them from the unwashed. Your entire statist system is designed to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.

We tax hard work and the harder you work the more the rich take, via their favorite agency, the government.

We give little pittances to people who capitulate and become electoral slaves.

The history of government growth is the history of income diversity.

Without their tool the government the rich can only get me to do something by paying me. That's not good enough, of course, they want more, and ignorant rubes like you are willing to cede more power to the Soros and Rockefellers of the world because this time government power will be used for you.

|1.25.10 @ 12:05PM|

refer back to JB. if it were a zero-sum game, we'd still be in the caves. i like to call that "magical pot" resources, buddy. and i have a better word for your "pie" too. excuses.

boobs!|1.8.10 @ 1:46PM|

''Somehow, government spending is supposed to magically produce extra weath, but private industry spending the same money doesn't.''

Don't they argue that the problem is lack of spending/production by the private sector thus requiring the government to spend and emulate private sector activity?

|1.8.10 @ 2:00PM|

The government is too moralistic to emulate private sector activity. When I say moralistic, I didn't mean virtuous, as a moralistic government will segregate schools based on the moral concept of seperating the tribes. The free market has no feeling one way or the other.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 2:16PM|

Re: tkwelge,

The government is too moralistic to emulate private sector activity.

You mean it is too divisive? Because what I found is that government types are too assholian.

|1.8.10 @ 2:10PM|

No. Government only consumes. It does not produce. It is worth much of the spending on police and military because these institutions protect more wealth than it consumes.

Also, if there is no private demand for widget X, why would you want the government to tax non-producers of widget X, then use that money to subsidize widget X? This is just a transfer of wealth from non-producers to the producers. That is the very definition of inefficiency because the non-producers won't pay for it on their own, i.e., they don't find it worth it to pay $Y for widget X. No problem, say the producers, we'll get the government to FORCE non-producers to buy widget X. Do you really consider that "[emulating] private sector activity"?

|1.8.10 @ 3:18PM|

Your response was much better than mine.

Really, the free market represents the values that we actually have, and the pubic sector represents what a political elite believes we "Should" be spending our money on.

|1.8.10 @ 3:49PM|

Oh, I am beginning to catch on now. The spending which all of us decide is of high value through Democracy is illegitimate. I agree to some extent and I am not a lover of political elites but you are arguing for anarchy. Seriously? Oh, no wonder I have such illogical responses. Radicalism, including anti-democratic radicalism will not lead to reason. We have rules about money because economies without sensible rules fail miserably. Unfettered free markets may work for a minority over the long-term but, as you know, we are all dead over the long-term and most of us are in the majority.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 4:05PM|

Re: David Hennessy,

Oh, I am beginning to catch on now. The spending which all of us decide is of high value through Democracy is illegitimate.

Only if the funds come through thievery. If the funds were given voluntarily, then it is not illegitimate.

Radicalism, including anti-democratic radicalism will not lead to reason.

Why not?

We have rules about money because economies without sensible rules fail miserably.

You're begging the question. Oh, thats a logical fallacy that can be translated as "circular reasoning."

Unfettered free markets may work for a minority over the long-term but, as you know, we are all dead over the long-term and most of us are in the majority.

Wow - argument by posing a "Us vs Them" mentality. Genius.

Jersey Patriot|1.8.10 @ 4:41PM|

The spending which all of us decide is of high value through Democracy is illegitimate. I agree to some extent and I am not a lover of political elites but you are arguing for anarchy. Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 8:31PM|

"Unfettered free markets may work for a minority over the long-term but, as you know, we are all dead over the long-term and most of us are in the majority."

I think you have this backwards dude... As Mises said: Markets are mass production for the masses.

The MAJORITY of us get cheap cars, housing, computers, clothes, beds that are set off the floor and away from rats, indoor plumbing, internet and all kinds of other cool stuff purely because market success is about finding a need an filling it to the standards of your customers, more cheaply than your competitors.

When there is high demand for a good, price goes up - when price goes up, producers enter the market and increase their levels of production - when that happens, innovations occur, and suddenly production booms and prices plummet.

Any of the things I mentioned above are fine examples. Indoor plumbing is possibly my favorite, since even the richest people in the world were not privy to such luxury over 100 years ago.

|1.8.10 @ 10:08PM|

"were not privy to such luxury" - no pun intended :)

Sean W. Malone|1.9.10 @ 2:37PM|

Maybe a little intended...

Chad|1.9.10 @ 3:30PM|

The MAJORITY of us get cheap cars, housing, computers, clothes, beds that are set off the floor and away from rats, indoor plumbing, internet and all kinds of other cool stuff purely because market success is about finding a need an filling it to the standards of your customers, more cheaply than your competitors.

And the MAJORITY still get all these goodies in places such as France or Norway, which put a lot more fetters on the market. They also get a society where incomes are much more even, no one goes broke because they get sick, and people don't have to work so hard to keep up with the Joneses.

k|1.9.10 @ 3:45PM|

Please, you are spouting nonsense.

Norway gets it's wealth from oil extraction in the North Sea. France figures a good New Years Eve is when only 1200 cars are burnt in the streets.

Sean W. Malone|1.9.10 @ 8:34PM|

Have you ever been to Norway, or France, Chad?

I love your little myths about how they're perfect little societies and all, but that's all they are... Myths. People still try to keep up with the material wealth of their neighbors, there's still crime and there's a damn lot of medical tourism of people who actually want to get treated somewhere where they don't have to wait 6 months to see the doctor they need.

You really need a new playlist though.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 12:26PM|

I have never had the pleasure of heading to Norway, but I have lived in both western Europe and Japan...where the people have lives every bit as good as ours, if not more so.

|1.10.10 @ 1:12PM|

Medical Tourism? Let's look that up on the internet. Oh I see...Americans going to Mexico to get cheap dentistry. Here's one for Belize..I can take the vacation and get an operation for less than the operation alone in the USA. There are dozens of ads for medical tourism from the US to other countries, wonder how they can make money when everyone wants to come here for medical care? Must be a messed up market. Wonder if there are companies advertising in Norway for medical tourism to the US? Anyone?

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 1:47PM|

And shockingly, medical care in the US is every bit as socialist (or more so, fascist) as it is in Europe... But actually people go to Mexico for cheap *drugs*, because unlike in the US, it's not illegal to import drugs from all different sources in Mexico. That particular medical tourism wouldn't happen if the US Government would stop giving US Drug manufacturers legal oligopolies and protections against foreign drug manufacturers.

Also, I should note that since you're using google in the United States, you're going to get information *related* to the US... Google's cool like that. Now go try the same search from www.google.uk.com ... You'll get all kinds of fun facts about going to India to get medical treatment.

Here, let me google (UK) that for you...

Lesson of the day: Knowing something about how teh interwebz work can prevent you from coming up with bullshit arguments.

|1.10.10 @ 5:10PM|

So now we find out that medical tourism in the UK is to India not the USA as you point out. Thats' what I said, the myth that people are streaming to the USA to take advantage of our superior medical system is completely opposite of the truth. People are streaming to India, Mexico and Belize who all have socialized medicine. Same with drugs. Your analysis of why is spot on. Now our Government is trying to make it worse with this latest abortion of health "reform." Read my post again, I think we are in total agreement.
Lesson of the day, read carefully first.....then type. You have to disagree with me before you can correct me.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 11:59PM|

You're missing the point though in a massive way David. India, Mexico & Belize have socialized medicine for their OWN citizens, sure... So do we (it's called Medicare & Medicaid and covers about 50% of the market). Big deal.

The tourism is to private clinics!

The Mexicans are far more free in their purchase of drugs (from whichever companies, from whichever countries) than we are. The Indians have a glut of private clinics that cater to the medical tourists.

None of the medical treatment that people are visiting these other countries for are paid for by the government! So no, we are not in agreement. You remain an idiot. It's not the socialism that is making things better, but the comparatively larger amount of freedom and lower prices due to labor arbitrage that provides the incentive for people to *pay* (privately, out of their own pockets) to visit these other countries.

India, as I noted above, has only experienced the economic growth and increases in standard of living it's seen over the last 20 years precisely because they finally ABANDONED fabian socialism... Hell, you can even wiki something called "the hindu rate of growth", which was what people in the region termed the laughable economic growth socialist India had experienced until the early 1990s when they finally began liberalizing their markets.

India is a HUGE vindication of the basic tenet of libertarianism: More freedom = better living.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 3:18AM|

I thought people would keep working even if you took their incentives away, isn't wealth created to "keep up with the Jones still" wealth? If someone creates some new product everyone likes just to get into some stupid status bidding war then doesn't that innovation offset the costs of such a bidding war.

On the one hand you are arguing that Warren Buffet and crew will keep working and investing no matter what, on the other hand you claim that they won't. Which is it? Why is not having to work so hard a benefit if people are just going to work as hard anyway?

Again you reveal yourself as hopelessly contradictory, completely dishonest, or just naive; throwing up whatever sticks to get people to support your policy preferences.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 12:52PM|

If someone creates some new product everyone likes just to get into some stupid status bidding war then doesn't that innovation offset the costs of such a bidding war.

Only on his side of the ledger. His competitor how has to work even more just to get back to where he was. In the end, both people are worse off. In principle, some third parties would have made some marginal profits on whatever the two bidders were creating in order to have money to bid. However, these are precisely marginal, and much smaller than the almost complete loss the two bidders experience.

On the one hand you are arguing that Warren Buffet and crew will keep working and investing no matter what

What is it with libertarians with black-and-white absolutes? The funny thing is that with Buffet, it actually comes pretty close to absolute. I would bet he would go right on playing the game even at 100% tax rate. Hell, I bet he would play even at 200%, just for the fun of it.

However, most people are not in the same position. There is some extreme at which they will quit, but nothing that lies within the bound of rational public policy would cause that. When you look at European nations with much higher net tax rates than the US, you find fairly similar employmnent patterns and net employment, though with a lot more vacation.

When you knock back the big winners and tighten the distribution of incomes, it reduces the ability and propensity to conspicuously consume. Life gets easier for all around.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 1:49PM|

Chad, you made the dumbest argument I've ever seen just now...

Well done.

I'll let you figure out why.

|1.11.10 @ 2:27PM|

I think he must be posting drunk.

Hell, I bet he would play even at 200%, just for the fun of it.

That was fantasyland even for Chad. He can't be stupid enough to believe that.

Sean W. Malone|1.11.10 @ 5:16PM|

Yeah, and that wasn't even the argument I was talking about being the dumbest.

|1.25.10 @ 12:10PM|

democracy IS radicalism. we have a constitutional republic here. majority rule leaves the minority at the whim of fads. and...it's only anarchistic if we take out the laws against theft and fraud. those are economic-based laws after all.

|1.8.10 @ 2:37PM|

Don't they argue that the problem is lack of spending/production by the private sector thus requiring the government to spend and emulate private sector activity?


Not really. The Keynes argument is basically that they should waste money (on useless things like digging ditches and filling them back up, not producing anything of economic value) to put money in place to be spent on produced goods.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 3:21PM|

I think it's much better for such spending to be done on useful things, like building infrastructure (things that the market won't do in an efficient manner anyway). This helps grow economic activity above and beyond merely putting dollars into the economy. No reason the work has to be useless.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 3:31PM|

That's not Keynes though, the entire theory is that what you spend money on doesn't matter; which was found politically useful because it lets politicians spend on whatever they want.

Infrastructure spending that is actually needed is a good idea regardless of the macro economic situation. As such, the argument that we should spend money on infrastructure doesn't prove the argument that we should waste money on fictitious stimulus packages.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 3:43PM|

Keynes specifically cited infrastructure and other public goods as the appropriate targets of stimulative spending. Sure, providing wages for useless labor will have a stimulative effect, but spending it on useful things adds to the long-term potential output.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 4:08PM|

Re: Tony,

Keynes specifically cited infrastructure and other public goods as the appropriate targets of stimulative spending.

And he knew that because he was a genius! Right, Tony? The guy that could not get tenure as a mathematics teacher despite his daddy's efforts, he was an economics genius!

Sure, providing wages for useless labor will have a stimulative effect, but spending it on useful things adds to the long-term potential output.

Sure, because there is nothing more useful than a thing built with stolen money. Check. Makes sense.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 4:58PM|

You are so tiresome. We will never agree that taxation is the same thing as theft, so until you come up with something other than this idiotic catchall argument, I don't have much use for the things you say.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 5:03PM|

Re: Tony,

You are so tiresome. We will never agree that taxation is the same thing as theft,


Just because you do not agree does not mean the argument is not sound, Tony. Taking another person's property by force is theft. If taxation is takijng people's property by force, then taxation IS theft.

so until you come up with something other than this idiotic catchall argument, I don't have much use for the things you say.


I surmise that the idiocy lies soemwhere else, Tony, like in "putting your hand on the sand and ignoring reality" kind of idiocy.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 5:48PM|

Ignoring reality is what you're doing... the reality that every society on earth levies taxes and nobody except a few fringe anarchists view it as morally equivalent to theft.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 6:07PM|

Re: Tony,

Ignoring reality is what you're doing... the reality that every society on earth levies taxes and nobody except a few fringe anarchists view it as morally equivalent to theft.

Just because "societies" [I love it when you equivocate and replace "societies" for "government"] tax does not mean that, in REALITY, the taxation is theft. People are made WORSE OFF when the result of their productive efforts is being taken by force. It is YOU who places his head in the sand and not see this.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 6:09PM|

Sorry - just because it is societies that tax does not that taxation is NOT theft.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 6:14PM|

But you are made hundreds of times BETTER off when we provide you with roads, language, and the internet.

Suck it up, and pay your fair share. Or go ahead and renounce society, give up everything we gave you, and see how long you last freezing and starving in the dark.

|1.8.10 @ 6:37PM|

Fuck you shit head! You are not "society" and you have done nothing for me. You so deserve to have Warty come to your house and tell you how "we decided that you needed to be raped all night long".

Educate yourself. I have a cousin who is mentally retarded who has a better grasp of politics and economics, not to mention human nature, than you do.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 8:33PM|

You assume that government does such things better than private markets, government certainly didn't create language and many roads could be privatized.

Just because we live in society doesn't mean that government has some kind of unlimited claim upon our wealth, we pay taxes for things like military and the police and engage in mutually beneficial trade for the majority of other goods.

You also don't seem to realize that government wastes tons of money doing things not remotely related to any concept of the public good. That's anything it does not justified by a collective action problem, asymmetrical information, or externalities. Why in the age of email and Fed Ex do we need a post office? Why do we pay for the education of middle class and rich kids? Why do rich people get Medicare and Social Security? Why do we fight a war on drugs? Why do public sector unions get to rake in the pension benefits by effectively being on both sides of the negotiating table? And so on.

The moment you can restrict government to a reasonable size you can start making claims about "fair shares". No one here however wants to pay you more money for more bridges to nowhere. No one here wants to give you more money to satisfy your arbitrary conceptions of fairness that have little to do with paying for one's share of the actual public goods that government did provide. Society is not the same as government.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 9:17PM|

You don't seem to understand that the private sector wastes tons of money doing things not remotely related to any concept of the public good.

The problem is not that I think the government is perfect (I don't). The problem is that you think the market IS perfect. However, as long as government exists, it is impossible to disprove your thesis, because you can *always* blame the nearest government program for every market screw up.

|1.8.10 @ 9:27PM|

Sorry Chad. FAIL.

You've spent enough time around here to know that nobody here thinks that markets are "perfect." They do, however, provide the best for the most in the most virtuous of ways: voluntary transactions. Full stop.

That's the progressive strawman and for you to use that shows either deliberate ignorance on your part or just plain old dishonesty.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 1:02AM|

You are just arguing semantics, JW. By "perfect", I mean that it can't be beaten by any other system, and will always come up with the best possible answer. Of course, the market does not do this. Indeed, it gets wildly wrong answers all the time. This is why the entire planet has adopted a multi-tiered approach to decision making, of which markets are just one.

|1.25.10 @ 12:24PM|

actually, chad, markets are not "policies" they are barometers and to put government regulations on them is like bending a level to make it fit your wall, instead of building the wall to fit your level.

|1.8.10 @ 10:15PM|

Hey, pal, the deal is that as a free individual, I will decide what is a "waste" of my "private sector" money. And I'm not obliged to put any of it to your, or anyone else's "public good".

Although the city seems to think it's a good idea I spent money at the local boat dealership, which pays their salesmen and mechanics, and the boatbuilders...all of whom, along with me, pay the King's Taxes that fund..."the public good" of which you speak.

But some people seem to think owning a boat isn't as much a "public good" as, I don't know, giving that money directly to the gummint? Me - not so much.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 1:04AM|

Mine mine mine! It's all mine! MY money MY money MY money! I don't wanna share. It was all CREATED SOLELY be ME! I don't owe society NUTTIN! MINE MINE MINE MINE! Whaaahhhh!

Ahh, the libertarian creed.

Mr. FIFY|1.9.10 @ 6:42AM|

Chad|1.9.10 @ 1:04AM|#
Ours ours ours! It's all ours! OUR money OUR money OUR money! We don't want you to keep the fruits of your labor. It was all CREATED SOLELY for US! Society is owed EVERYTHING! OURS OURS OURS OURS! Whaaahhhh!

Ahh, the libertarian creed.

|1.25.10 @ 12:30PM|

well, who elses? and what do i owe society and exactly what logical argument to you have to show that i owe society anything? i INTERACT with society for my own benefit. no human being is purely altruistic. we may occasional feel the urge to help. but does any human being truly ever give over his own ends for the ends of another? rhetorical question by the way, if you answer in the affirmative, i'll know you're lying. human nature is human nature.

and, no, this is not proof he should be forced. it is proof that such selfless living is unnatural and contra human condition. not to mention extremely damaging to a cognitive psychology with self-awareness and a need to feel in control of one's own fate.

Tim2|1.9.10 @ 1:16AM|

You assume that rewards to innovation and the satisfaction of other's desires aren't serving the public good. Rappers get lots of bling because people like to listen to their music. It may seem wasteful to you, but how much rap would there be if there was no money in it; discussions of IP aside money can be made in music in numerous manners besides cd/mp3 sales.

In competitive free markets where buyers and sellers bear the costs and benefits of their actions people don't get rich in the long run by screwing over others. Rich rappers and ballers spending ridiculous amounts of money on pretty frivolous stuff may not be advancing your concept of the public good, but they are getting rich by giving people who work for money and voluntarily give it up what they want. It's not my fault the public wants more rap and sports and less opera and universal pre k. Its easy to arrive at your conclusion when you have the arrogance to try and define what is in the public interest.

General observation shows that the government often picks things that are very questionable as to whether or not they are in the public interest and even when they pick something like education they run it very poorly, while who is to say how much education and on what constitutes what people should learn. People spending their own money make such decisions much better for themselves than Chad could ever hope to make for all members of society.

Or "the arts". Most people aren't that interested in most art and many who are spend boatloads of money on it, yet we still have government funding for them.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 10:48AM|

Rich rappers and ballers spending ridiculous amounts of money on pretty frivolous stuff may not be advancing your concept of the public good, but they are getting rich by giving people who work for money and voluntarily give it up what they want

Imagine that tomorrow all the "rich rappers" died in a fiery plane crash. Guess what would happen. By next week, the markets would somehow find a bunch of poor rappers, indistinquishable from the last, and make them rich. Consumers would go on spending just as much as before, which implies that the dead rappers had little added value. The same is true of CEOs or anyone else at the top. Their position is what creates value. Many people could fill it.

General observation shows that the markets often pick things that are very questionable as to whether or not they are in the public interest and even when they pick something like finance they run it very poorly.

And you still keep bleating that people make good decisions with their own money, despite oodles of evidence that they make idiotic, short-term, contradictory choices all the time.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 3:36AM|

No, I contend that people on average make better choices for themselves than governments do for them. I contend that the same "dumb people" in the vote for the people in government, and that often government faces clear incentives to screw the people at large to pay off some small interest group. Public choice economics, regulatory capture, have you heard of it? What about being able to vote yourself "free money" paid for by higher taxes on others and debt piled on future generations?

Further, I don't let my own personal desires filter in when judging whether or not people making stupid decisions merely because they make a decision I wouldn't make or don't agree with. I would never go to a Hannah Montana concert, for example.

Your comment on rappers is assinine, I bet you would think that if someone went back in time and offed Bach or Beethoven you would say that someone else would have written their music. Your personal preferences are seeping in, you don't like rap that much and see it as all the same; because that's the only way you can make such a statement. This underlines your entire worldview, because with out it you would have to recognize that individuals actually create things of value and trade them for forms of durable wealth they are entitled to keep. Even if they spend that wealth in ways you find wasteful, its theirs to waste; and unless you can come up with a way to change their behavior such that it makes them on net better off rather than just saying they spend money on silly things I can spend it better, you have no claim to their resources. That is the difference between coercive taxation for the police and coercive taxation for an expansive welfare state concerned with "equality" rather than any real market imperfections justified by made up public goods like "people will have to work less hard to keep up with the Jones" which assumes a set of subject prefernces and contradicts your own assertion that taking more of what people earn won't affect their desire to work hard and innovate in a manner that produces more wealth available to everyone.

|1.25.10 @ 12:33PM|

so, since we tend to make contradictory choices regarding our own lives, we should give up our decision making process to other human beings with the same weakness and no dog in the fight?

i'm sorry, but, i like being able to make my own mistake and i'll be damned if other people become harmed because of my stupid decisions.

how about, for the public good, we don't allow people to make mistakes OTHER people will have to pay for?

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 8:34PM|

I'm always perplexed when you make that argument Tony. For most of human history, slavery has been widely regarded as A-Ok, and every society on earth practiced it. Hell, a few still do!

Does that make is morally acceptable?

|1.8.10 @ 4:46PM|

"providing wages for useless labor will have a stimulative effect"

No, it doesn't. Where did the money for those wages come from? Either from a tax, which means it wasn't spent by its original owner, or it was printed, which means every other dollar in existence was clipped a little: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_clipping

Tony|1.8.10 @ 5:02PM|

What if the tax is money people would otherwise save?

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 5:04PM|

Re: Tony,

What if the tax is money people would otherwise save?

So what if people save? What's the problem with that?

Tony|1.8.10 @ 5:39PM|

If the money would otherwise be saved, then it would indeed be stimulative if used as a tax to fund labor.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 6:02PM|

Re: Tony,

If the money would otherwise be saved, then it would indeed be stimulative if used as a tax to fund labor.

You mean that if I just gave my savings away to some laborers, that would be in itself good?

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 9:51PM|

Tony, "saved" money, typically gets saved where again? A bank perhaps?

You know what banks do with saved money?

They loan it out. To people who employ other people... And without government (which is not how it works in 21st Century US unfortunately), propping them up - banks actually have incentive to make good investments. Government doesn't. And government sponsored banks don't either.

Thus the massive losses.

|1.25.10 @ 12:34PM|

then it would be saved and draw interest to be used as a future investment.

hmm|1.8.10 @ 5:13PM|

When I save money, it's still mine.

true fact.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 5:19PM|

Hey, Hmmm, Tony does not believe that your money is yours - which is implied from his belief that taxation is not thievery.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 6:26PM|

When people save in capital markets that money gets loaned out to someone else, and when they hoard money they are just hoarding useless paper and not actual resources. The price of goods and services will then fall to where people will actually be willing to pay for them. Then they start getting bid back up to a new equilibrium. Demand death spirals don't exist, and "deflation" often occurs because the money supply was inflated in the first place. If you want a smooth business cycle, try sound money.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 7:34PM|

Yep, the market would just be utterly perfect if it weren't for the nearest government policy.

Ahh, the wonderful catch-all that makes libertarianism un-falsifiable.

Please explain how unsound monetary policy caused the comic book bubble that my little brother and his friends all got caught up in when we were kids.

The Libertarian Guy|1.8.10 @ 9:35PM|

Who put guns to your brother's head, Chad? His friends? Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons?

Chad|1.8.10 @ 9:41PM|

You are right, LG. No one put a gun to his head, yet the market suffered a huge bubble. But according to your theory, bubbles are IMPOSSIBLE without government intervention.

So please explain how the government forced a bunch of kids to play the "greater fool" game. Come on. Do it!

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 9:56PM|

I'd love to hear more about this "huge bubble", Chad... Since unless you had an unlimited or expanding source of money or other comics (assuming your primary means of trade are those two things), there's a pretty obvious cap to how much any of the comics can be worth.

If you had 5 friends, each with 10 comics and $20 and one of your friends had that coveted Uncanny X-men #2, the maximum amount that you could bid for said comic was $20 + 10 Comics, no?

So in the event that that was the one everyone else wanted and you were the only one willing to trade your whole stash, then the remaining 4 people would just trade out all of the remaining comics and money... Unless somehow each of your friends valued a different comic... But that wouldn't cause a bubble, since it'd be easy enough to get things swapped around til everyone got what they wanted.

Regardless, unless you had a way to balloon the money supply (both in dollars and tradeable comics), then you couldn't have had an actual bubble.

Did you steal your dad's wallet to increase the pool of money available?

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:59AM|

No, Sean, there was no magic expanding money supply. Yet the bubble happened. Prices went up, and kept going up. The kids were buying comics for much more than face value, not because they wanted them, but rather to stuff them in a plastic bag and sell them for double next year...until the panic came when they had far more comic books than the supply actually justified. Then prices dropped.

It was a very classic bubble and had ZERO to do with money supply. I am sorry that children have proven your entire economic worldview wrong, but you are just gonna have to suck it up.

Sean W. Malone|1.9.10 @ 3:07PM|

That makes no sense, Chad. Prices can go up with increased demand, but that doesn't necessarily make something a bubble... Much less, a "classic one".

Regardless, there's a *limit* to how much prices can go up in a market without an unlimited increase in the money supply.

So prices go up "more than face value" (should I really explain to you that the sticker price and the price people are willing to pay aren't necessarily - or even often - the same thing?)... So what?

Without the issues of money supply, then whatever "bubble" happens is quickly mitigated when the limit of money & resources has been reached. So prices can't go up indefinitely and they reach their peak much more quickly and fall appropriately... On the other hand, if the government expands the money supply significantly, these bubbles last for years, grow to huge levels, and then eventually collapse on hundreds of millions of people.

Your comic book example (which still lacks an immense amount of detail and is thus hard to discuss) doesn't have anything to say about that.

The fact that you don't realize the differences in your example of children compared to the overall economy, or the difference between a situation where a small group of kids voluntarily bids up the price of a certain good, risking their *own* money, versus a government inflating the currency and directing money into certain sectors via legislation doesn't make you a genius, Chad. It makes you a fool.

Your comic book example is also fraught with holes of all sizes. For example, as I already noted, the price of an individual comic - whichever was determined to be the most valuable (Uncanny #2, I believe I said) - cannot exceed the highest total trade someone can offer... As I said before, it cannot exceed $(total available to 1 individual kid) + all comics owned by that kid. If all you have is 10 comics and $20 - then you are able to trade only that much for that most prized comic.

Problem is - you've given up 100% of your existing resources for 1 comic. Now maybe that one comic was worth it to you - and apparently everyone else was bidding the price up as well, so it was obviously worth it to everyone else in the group. HOWEVER... Once that highest prized comic has been purchased - the purchaser has no more assets and obviously won't give up his newfound prized possession. So that kid is out of the bidding for any other comic.

Then what? All the other comics are less valued, presumably, and prices drop for each successive trade.

Another big problem is that unless your friends were all incredibly stupid (which... I suppose is possible, knowing how you turned out, Chad), most kids realize that instead of bidding the price up way past "face value", and overpaying for an available comic - they could just go down to the comic book store and buy it for whatever the sticker price is and save a ton of money.

There are so many flaws in the whole concept of this thing as a bubble, and all you're doing in defense of that is telling me that I have to trust you that it was a bubble. Well, Chad... I don't. It makes no fucking sense and there are a dozen pieces missing.

Another piece missing is time-preference and future value speculation... Uncanny X-Men #2 might be bid up to a high price under the assumption (whether correct or not) that the future value will increase significantly.

I wish you realized, at some point, that you have no clue what you're talking about with respect to economics - but that doesn't seem very likely ever.

|1.25.10 @ 12:41PM|

doofus, that's not a bubble...that's immediate demand based on a fad followed by lack of interest.

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 6:36AM|

Oh, so now government forced your brother to buy comic books.

I thought you loved government, Chad. Tsk.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 11:59AM|

You just don't get it, do you LG. The bubble happened WITHOUT force. That is my whole point.

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 2:07PM|

You're the one who brought it up, Chad, so the onus is upon you to answer your own question.

Mr. ?|1.9.10 @ 2:59PM|

Obviously, Chad would have supported some kind of Comic Book Czar back in the day, to prevent his nimrod brother from buying overpriced comic books.

|1.9.10 @ 7:10PM|

That's a father or mother, I think you mean. Perhaps parenthood is too authoritarian for an anarchist. We should do away with those nasty parents and let the kids go for it. Where did the kids get the money anyway, from a libertarian?

The Libertarian Guy|1.10.10 @ 11:52AM|

No, David, that would be the liberal dream... just let the state raise kids.

|1.25.10 @ 12:50PM|

i love progressive and their snarky comments. they're so good at them that they substitute them for actual arguments.

Mr. ?|1.9.10 @ 3:02PM|

Nobody forced them, Chad, but that doesn't mean government had a duty to follow your brother and his idiot friends around to prevent them from buying comic books.

|1.25.10 @ 12:39PM|

explain to me why the government should have stepped in to stop that bubble, chad?

liquidation of unsound assets is a nasty, but real function of markets whether you put bandages on them or not. with gvmnt intervention, it would have still happened. it just wouldn't have looked like it did.

|1.25.10 @ 12:36PM|

there are sound libertarian economic policies that don't add up to unregulated markets.

that's the law against theft and fraud.

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 8:49PM|

He forgot that his target audience was politicians.

Mr. FIFY|1.8.10 @ 9:36PM|

We're too stupid to spend our own money.

MJ|1.9.10 @ 2:44PM|

Which presumes that infrastructure spending decisions made the in pursuit of the stimulating effects of government spending will be useful rather than bloated make work.

|1.8.10 @ 5:06PM|

And what the private sector would spend the money on isn't "useful" ?

Considering the fact that it is responding to actual consumer demands, it's probably being put to better use (as measured by the satisfaction of real human desires), than the government would.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 7:55PM|

We have bankrupted our nation buying cheap shit from China and trying to make up for our short limp dicks by buying bigger houses and trucks than our neighbors, you still believe that we aren't wasting money.

Btw, conspicuous spending is *NEGATIVE SUM*...and life is full of it. I just saw a paper the other day on how showing men pictures of hot chicks and asking them to imagine dates with the girls caused them to change how they allocated money. Goodbye savings, hello compensating-for-tinywilly-and-baldspot-mobile.

|1.8.10 @ 10:19PM|

What? This is just stupid - no more reading Chad comments for me lest the dumb start to wear off on me...yuk...

SKR|1.8.10 @ 11:09PM|

You do realize that money isn't wasted just because it wasn't spent on the things that you value, right?

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:02PM|

Why would showing the men pictures of attractive women and priming their thoughts about dating affect their purchase decisions? Surely, these men already knew that hot women existed, and didn't need to be reminded.

How did pictures of hot women suddenly make buying a limp-dick-compensator more rational?

Mr. ?|1.9.10 @ 3:04PM|

To paraphrase the pro-choice mantra:

Their money, their choice.

|1.8.10 @ 11:39PM|

Sure, but at least when you misallocate your own resources, you are only misallocating YOUR resources, not a whole bunch of other people's resources that you have expropriated for the purpose.

Governments are just as irrational as individuals Chad, but they have far more power at their disposal. They are the ones with the guns, and they are just as subject to dick-size-comparison based reasoning.

I see no reason to think that the state is going to make more rational choices on my behalf than I would.
Maybe if it were run by a despotism of artificially intelligent machines it might, but not if it's a democracy, subject to all the irrational whims of the electorate and the politicians that cater to them.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 3:27PM|

As always, Hazel, the problem is that when you mis-allocate resources, it affects me. For example, when you buy an SUV rather than say, a Civic, it drives up MY gasoline price and MY commodity prices. It creates more damage to OUR roads and OUR environment, causes more noise on EVERYONE'S property, puts other drivers and pedestrians at risk due to its large mass. It also decreases visibility for other drivers who can't see over or around such large vehicles, again increasing danger. It requires larger parking spaces and therefore larger parking lots, which in turn further spaces out destinations, requiring ME to drive farther and all but ruling out walking. Likewise, the wider lanes become necessary as well, causing the same issues.

In theory, the government could attempt to calculate the damage each of these factors cause, and build it into taxes, so the "market" could sort it out. But obviously, there are so many factors that it is unlikely they would get any closer to the true answer by this mechanism than just using common sense.

|1.9.10 @ 3:51PM|

Get the turd out of your mouth. Your eating food makes it cost more for me so you need to kill yourself.

I have taken shits with both more intelligence and more integrity than you posses.

Sean W. Malone|1.9.10 @ 4:19PM|

A butterfly flaps its wings in the Amazon, and ruins Chad's day. Stop the presses!

|1.9.10 @ 8:14PM|

If I misallocate MY resources, it affects you FAR FAR less than if the government misallocates billions of other people's resources. Moreover, at least you GET to choose the right decision for yourself, instead of (say) me forcing you to buy an SUV, even though you don't want one.

|1.10.10 @ 1:26PM|

Prove it. If YOU, my neighbor, misallocates his resources it can affects me much worse than the Government. Example, he pollutes his stream which flows to my property that harms me far more than the little bit of taxes I pay to have an EPA. This scenario was repeated millions of times across America before the first Clean Water Act to the point where rivers literally burned. Your solution, we should all have to go sue our neighbors and make the lawyers rich. What "billions of other people's resources" are you talking about and where is the misallocation? Your just making stuff up.

|1.10.10 @ 3:54PM|

David, that's not a misallocation of resources. It's a different problem, a failure to properly define property rights. If i pollute your land, you should be able to sue me for property damage.

This is standard coasian bargaining.

However, if we go back to the irrational choice issue. If I waste a bunch of money buying immediate candy instead of next-day candy, i may be misallocating my resource but not yours.

On the other hand, the government is currently engaged in buying a shitload of "immediate candy" in the form of deficit spending and entitlement programs. The voters, as a whole, have irrationally voted to get lots of free shit from the state today, instead of saving the money for the future.

And guess what, that affects ME, whether I choose to save for my retirement or not. I have NO CONTROL over the fact that the money put into social security gets blown on "green energy" projects ro whatever. Ergo, I am deeply negatively imapacted by the irrationality of the state, but NOT by your personal desire to borrow today and blow your own money.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 4:07PM|

That's asinine, David. A single government regulation in the United States has the potential of effecting 300,000,000 people. Your one neighbor effecting *you* is a very small scale problem - so while valuable to you, for sure, doesn't remotely mean that it's a net positive for everyone.

|1.10.10 @ 5:45PM|

Again, here's an asanine back to you and a bonus of jerk. Potential harm? What harm? Who decides property rights? When a problem is systematic it requires a sytematic solution and if NO EPA and private lawsuits worked we would never have faced the problem at all. The EPA was created precisely because lawsuits had been tried and failed. If it had been just me there would never have been an EPA. Actually I never personally had that happen. It was corrected because it was affecting rich folks like you who went to their favorite trout stream to find no fish. Come on, though, be serious, most regulations and laws affect a very small minority of people not all 300,000,000 of us. It affects only those who were engaging in the pollution before the law took effect. Laws are not for people who respect others without being forced. It was a net positive for everyone because everyone had an equal chance to elect the politicians that passed the law and petitioned their Government as they have a Constitutional Right. It is the Constitution that decided whether it was a net positive not you or me. Your fight is with Democracy not me.

Sean W. Malone|1.11.10 @ 5:35PM|

You know that would be marginally true is all the laws that were ever written existed purely to protect people from those individuals who engaged in fraud, violence and other crimes. That is to say, if all laws protected you *from* harm, your statement might be correct.

Sadly, the vast majority of laws are written with precisely the opposite result. Most laws are written not to prevent people from taking advantage of others - but rather to give special advantages! Laws eliminating foreign or smaller competitors in business, laws preventing people from engaging in harmless activities or personal lifestyle choices, laws designed to zone out "unwanted" people or to prevent immigrants from finding homes and jobs. Laws to prevent employers & employees from agreeing upon compensation voluntarily in order for one or the other party to have special advantages... No, David, the vast majority of laws have nothing to do with protecting individuals from actual harm - and quite a bit to do with redistributing some wealth, resource or other advantage to a favored friend of the legislators.

The more the power of government grows, the bigger incentive businesses have to lobby for those special favors and the less incentive they have to actually compete in the market honestly. WalMart supporting an employer mandate for health care is a great example of this recently - it's quite clear that WalMart would have little trouble complying with such a mandate, while many of their smaller competitors (and perhaps even some of the big ones like Target) would have been very hurt by such a thing, thus giving WalMart a legislated advantage over their competitors - without ever having to do a better job for their customers.

Another local example that I like to use is in the town I went to college in, a law was written when I was 18 or 19 that simply said that in the downtown area, a total of 14 movie theatre screens could be built. "Coincidentally", the largest local theatre chain had just built a 14-screen multiplex right in the middle of downtown.

The deal they made was essentially that they'd build that one theatre there on the condition that the city disallowed any competitors from opening rival theatres anywhere nearby.

There are thousands upon thousands of these examples, David. Most laws have nothing what-so-ever to do with protecting anybody from actual crime and everything to do with giving the elite friends of government some freebies. What are friends for, right? Especially when they have the power to shape policy and back their decrees with guns & jail.

|1.25.10 @ 1:03PM|

yep, david, my fight is with democracy. and don't get all constitutional on us. first, a democracy renders a constitution null and void, as the system of democracy replaces constitutional rule of law with the rule of masses.

second. the right to vote does not preclude the right to not participate. nor does it preclude the right to property. read AMENDMENT IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

the people here is not the "working class" it is the citizenry and, according to the Founders own writings, meant the individuals that make it up. furthermore, as adherents to Locke and Bastiat, they believed liberty was FOUNDED upon property rights. the whole purpose of the constitution was to protect our bodies and our property from force. this was the Lockean definition of liberty - one's right to his property and the use of it. and the Founders' intent for our society was to protect our Lockean liberty.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 3:48AM|

Any economic action increases supply or demand, I suppose you feel that it is perfectly okay to restrict entry into a particular industry because new entrants would violate existing industries fictitious property right to a certain selling price. Why is it any different when consumers bid up the price of a good you also like, or use land in a way you don't agree with. You don't have a right to a certain price level, nor do you have a right to how far you have to drive to work.

You are really revealing yourself as a hardcore, naive and as you would put it childish statist. You want the world to revolve around you, and when it doesn't fit your preferences you think that you can violate the rights of others to make them live how you would like to them. Of course being an progressive pseudo intellectual, you make up some bullshit argument about everything being due to chance such that if some random innovator died someone else would be given the chance to make exactly what he did in exactly the same amount of time exactly as well. Otherwise, that person has a clear claim to what they made; and even if he did get a lucky break he had to work hard to take advantage of it. You're even worse than I thought, you're not just some arrogant pseudo intellectual that thinks that you can run the world better; but you don't even believe in individual rights or that they even earned what they have. I can at least understand why someone might think they can make better decisions than people acting voluntarily in markets.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 12:07PM|

Any economic action increases supply or demand, I suppose you feel that it is perfectly okay to restrict entry into a particular industry because new entrants would violate existing industries fictitious property right to a certain selling price.

You suppose incorrectly. Assuming there are no externality-related concerns (a very BIG "if" when talking about cheap Chinese shit), then it is presumable that the new entrant has found a more effective way to provide the product or service. That would be a good thing on net, but would indeed create many losers who most libertarians don't give a shit about (and don't think throwing your pennies in the Salvation Army bucket at Christmas implies you care).

Why is it any different when consumers bid up the price of a good you also like, or use land in a way you don't agree with.

Qualitatively, it isn't. Quantitatively, the externalities are widespread and conspicuous, negative-sum consumption the norm.

You don't have a right to a certain price level, nor do you have a right to how far you have to drive to work.

I never said anthing about rights, now did I? They are a loaded and useless concept, and I generally avoid using it. Rights to me are simply tools, and by no means are they binary, as libertarians tend to see them. When I do say that someone has the "right" to something, I merely mean that it should be afforded high, but not infinite, protection under the law. I have no problem with shades of grey, or navigating among the many possible conflicting rights, both positive and negative. Libertarians, on the other hand, just claim that positive rights don't exist and that negative rights can never conflict, then bury their heads in the sand.

to chance such that if some random innovator died someone else would be given the chance to make exactly what he did in exactly the same amount of time exactly as well

Give me an example of something that was invented that would not have been invented soon after by someone else. Note that I am not asking for "proof", because you cannot prove a negative. I am asking for evidence. When you look back at the history of innovation, you find that there was always someone else (usually lots of people and organizations) working on the same problem. The people who got their manuscript or patent in the mail first are the ones who are remembered.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 4:10PM|

I really don't get why you always assume externalities are always massive and bad?

Most of the time they are minuscule, and are often just as likely to be positive as negative. Hell, most of the time they don't even exist compared to what you're always yapping about.

|1.25.10 @ 1:06PM|

Rights to me are simply tools

I have no problem with shades of grey, or navigating among the many possible conflicting rights, both positive and negative.

Mussolini much?

Colonel_Angus|1.8.10 @ 5:06PM|

The market won't build infrastructure in an efficient way? How about railroads, many successful ones were built with private money... and then the government began to subsidize construction to anyone who wanted to build one, leading to an overbuilt network and a bubble that burst at least twice.

Was the overbuilt highway system an example of efficient government spending?

Chad|1.8.10 @ 7:57PM|

The passenger rail industry was killed by a combination of government policy and anti-competitive practices of the auto industry.

The government should undo what it has done, and massively build out public transportation infastructure. The scale which we are talking is around $50-100 billion per year, beyond the scale of industry.

Colonel_Angus|1.8.10 @ 8:26PM|

I wasn't referring to specifically passenger service, but private railroads in general whose main business has always been freight. The most successful ones relied very little on handouts and are still strong.

What anti-competetive practices are you referring to? The streetcar conspiracy is a discredited urban legend.

Pouring $50 billion per year in to public systems won't undo anything, it will just create a new, unfundable entitlement like the highways already are.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 9:26PM|

Your right...it will take more than $50 billion a year. We will also need to quit subsidizing road traffic so much.

Ironically, fuel and excise taxes are now covering less than 50% of the costs of building and maintaining our road system. "Public" transportation has consistently brought in more than half of its revenue at the fare box. So I guess our roads are more public than public!

Colonel_Angus|1.8.10 @ 11:18PM|

You didn't even respond to what I said. "More than half" revenue recovery isn't good enough to sustain a business. If dumping $50 billion per year in to unfundable entitlements is a bad idea, how is $100 billion per year even better? You agree that government historically has been horrible with infrastructure, what the fuck has honestly changed?

How about de-subsidize and de-regulate all transporation and energy and let the market bring us back to something like the private and profitable infrastructure we had before it was subsidized and regulated to shit.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:03PM|

Yet "less than half" is enough to sustain our current road system, apparently.

SKR|1.8.10 @ 11:12PM|

anti-competitive practices of the auto industry

I think that may refer to lobbying the government to build the national highway system.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:49AM|

Yes, that too.

|1.8.10 @ 11:46PM|

Disagree. Automobiles won out because people want door to door transportation for themselves, and the freedom to travel to any destination they choose without having to rely on other people's schedules and routes.

There are not bus or train routes extensive enough to drop you off in the middle of a national forest. And once you own a car, even if you bought it purely for vacation travel, it's usually more efficient to use the car.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:53AM|

Actually, there is train service to some pretty obscure national parks (Glacier comes to mind). And I sure remember taking buses and planes for all the hikes I did in Japan. It's actually MORE convenient than a car, because you aren't forced to do in-outs, loops, or lollipop hikes.

You are right in that good public transportation does not eliminate the need for a car in most cases. However, it often reduces the NUMBER of cars a family needs. Most Japanese families have just one, and save a ton because of it it.

Tim2|1.9.10 @ 1:29AM|

Population density makes passenger rail more feasible, although I don't deny that federally subsidized highways would have a strong effect on long distance passenger rail.

As for conspicuous spending being negative sum, its not if people value conspicuous spending more than they value their lost net worth. Such preferences may seem foolish to others, but so do people who went to see Hannah Montana. You are projecting your values onto other people to try and prove your point, but that can't be done because value is subjective to the individual's tastes.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:34PM|

And we have high enough population density along both coasts to support public transportation. No, we are not going to build a high-speed rail link to Bismark. But we darned well can build one from Miami to Boston, or San Diego to Vancouver. In any case, you completely ignore the fact that good public transportation causes density in a virtuous feedback. If you look at our cities with the best transit systems, such as NYC or DC (or many foreign cities) you see that land near stations is enormously valuable and that many people want to live and work within walking distance. This contrasts with interstates, which lower nearby property values.

As for conspicuous spending being negative sum, its not if people value conspicuous spending more than they value their lost net worth

The problem is that while each individual decision increases THAT person's net value, it decreases that of all of their "competitors". When I buy the biggest-dick-mobile on the block, I feel manly, not because I am really happy to own a BDM, but because my BDM is bigger than yours. That only lasts until you buy an even-bigger-dick-mobile, at which point, I am right back where I started relative to you...and a lot poorer for it.

There are countless studies that show that much spending and behavior is about bigger willies, not about actual value. Every one of these purchases is negative sum.

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 6:54PM|

Why do progs love public transportation so much?

Where ever people have the option of private cars vs public transit they always choose the private cars. Yet progs love to waste money on PT systems that are always under utilized.

Of course the progs don't use the PT themselves. Queen Pelosi or the Prophet Algore won't even fly first class. Nope its private jets and limousines for them.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 7:37PM|

Where ever people have the option of private cars vs public transit they always choose the private cars.

Really? Try living outside the US for once and get back to me. Particularly, I would recommend Japan, because you would learn a lot. If someone had offered to lend me a car while I was living there, I would have turned it down. A parking space would have cost more than everything I spent on trains and buses, and then some. Not that public transit was expensive. I figured I spent about $130 a month, which was cheaper than the gasoline alone I was buy here in the US.

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 8:19PM|

"Try living outside the US for once and get back to me"

Because the US is the only country that manufactures automobiles, right?

Except for Japan, Korea, China, India, Brazil, France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, UK. I'm sure I'm forgetting a number of other countries.

What you really mean is that the US is the only country wealthy enough for auto ownership to be practical for almost everyone.

Or are you saying that public transit in Europe and Japan is full of rich people and it's the lower classes in those places that chose to drive.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 11:18AM|

JoshInHB|1.9.10 @ 8:19PM|#

What you really mean is that the US is the only country wealthy enough for auto ownership to be practical for almost everyone.

We are by no means the richest country on earth (per capita).

Or are you saying that public transit in Europe and Japan is full of rich people and it's the lower classes in those places that chose to drive.

Where the public transit is good, people of all classes use it. This includes teens, the elderly, those who have been drinking, and the disabled, who can't drive.

|1.10.10 @ 2:10PM|

People choose private automobiles primarily because they are subsidized as a transportation choice by the Gummint. Before we spent massive amounts of tax payer money on the interstate highway system and all the state and local highway projects, trains or buses were often the choice. I think it is certain that automobile companies weren't going to provide their own streets for us. Rairoads, however, provide both the trains and tracks they run on. The tracks are more expensive than the trains. There's no fair market between public and private transportation.

|1.9.10 @ 7:08PM|

Science, you surpass even your previous stupidity here. A feat I considered humanly impossible.

If I am able to obtain a house I am more wealthy than if I have to live in a tent. If you purchase a larger house, I am not forced to go live in a tent. We both have more. Your comparisons are imbecilic.

A negative sum would indicate that someone had lost something. Being #1 in the havin' shit area isn't really considered wealth. Just because envy is the basis for your beliefs it is hardly the definition of wealth.

By your definition you have absolutely nothing, because Bill Gates has so much. His wealth actually has very little to do with yours.

Now go fuck yourself.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 7:39PM|

A negative sum would indicate that someone had lost something. Being #1 in the havin' shit area isn't really considered wealth.

Oh, so all the vague, unquantified intangible benefits people get when swapping apples for bananas, or horses for cars, as we were all arguing about earlier, are not real wealth either then I suppose.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 3:49AM|

No Chad, what we were talking about earlier IS precisely "wealth".

Value is subjective - even you can't deny this simple fact - so, wealth is the total tradeable goods & services which are valued by the individual. The tangible stuff is a close enough approximation for the most part, and it's easy to say that Bill Gates controls more wealth than I do, for instance, but Gates' wealth doesn't remotely impede on my wealth in the slightest - because the "stuff" available is for all practical purposes, quite expandable. Each year, new cars are made, for instance, and thus each year more cars are available to members of the human population of the world.

And this is where you need to learn about prices, profits & losses... Though I know you will never actually do this, Chad.

The goal of being a producer is to make enough of product X to meet 100% of the demand for product X, and do that better & cheaper than any of your competitors, thus capturing more of the market than anyone else. The way they can tell what products are in high demand is that when that is the case, prices go up and profits are high... Then, given a market without too many barriers to entry (typically government imposed), other producers will jump in to pick up the slack, trying to cut into those profits, raising the available supply of goods and thus lowering the price.

It's pretty simple, and you can see it at work almost everywhere you look at any time.

This increases the overall wealth (as people are getting goods they want and are demanding as evidenced by their bids for the good) of the world is increasing. Thus - economy isn't zero-sum! Side effect is: Bill Gates can buy 100,000 computers if he'd like and yet it hasn't effected my ability to also own one. He has wealth, I have wealth. From a tangible standpoint, he has more than I have, but that hasn't remotely stopped me from getting wealth of my own, up to the level I can trade for.

Swapping bananas & apples, horses & cars are all perfectly fine examples, but only because it's what people *value* in the example. Having 200 bananas, just to have them, is *not* a good example of wealth because the surplus is basically useless if I can't trade them.

|1.10.10 @ 2:16PM|

"Being #1 in the havin' shit area isn't really considered wealth" Actually, according to libertarian philosophy, it is the very reason for the existence of trade. I have been instructed that this "extra value" of unmeasurable, transient satisfaction is the non-zero-sum portion of the whole transaction. It doesn't look like much compared to the value of the houses so I agree with you.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 4:12PM|

Thanks for failing miserably to understand basic points of libertarian philosophy & economics.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 4:01AM|

I made my point better in a response to you above, but what I'm getting at is that not every you claim is a BDM is one for every person that buys one. This is where you project your preferences on other people, by believing that such items don't have any value other than status.

In the case of SUVs though one reason they are prevalent is due to the light truck emissions loophole and because they offer more passenger space and cargo capacity while not looking as stupid as vans. An SUV is more ascetically pleasing than a van, and it is also more suited to some people's needs who want the extra cargo space and safety relative to smaller cars with the cool look. I'd like to see your studies that can prove for all people a single good is nothing but status based, because without that as I point out above you can't set a rule and just have to have the policy pursued by bureaucrats who "know it when they see it" with the incentive to take more to expand their power or to fund pet projects while ruining the predictability that the rule of law provides. Then there will be the line of lobbyists who will want to get certain goods declared not BDMs.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 11:15AM|

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 4:01AM|#
I made my point better in a response to you above, but what I'm getting at is that not every you claim is a BDM is one for every person that buys one.

Surely, there are people who "need" big trucks (perhaps farmers) or McMansions (people with six kids). But they are a small fraction of the people who own them. Most people, however, buy them because everyone else does, and they think they need to keep up. It is all massively wasteful.

This is where you project your preferences on other people, by believing that such items don't have any value other than status.

I never said they have no value. I, too, would like granite countertops. But why? Do they really making preparing my dinner any easier? Of course not. Fundamentally, the motivation comes from keeping up. I am just one of the rare people that realizes this.

For years, I drove a beat up old pickup truck despite having the income to afford a nice new car of my choice. I couldn't tell you the number of times people asked me why I was driving that old piece of shit. These social expectations and games of one-upmanship are powerful drivers for our behavior. These aren't just little negative-sum games I am talking about. They may well constitute the majority of the spending of people with above average incomes...and virtually all of the spending of the very rich.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 1:53PM|

It's not your goddamn decision to tell other people what they "need", or what they can spend their money on, Chad.

I'm so sick of seeing your wannabe-dictator screeds... It makes me really sad for the sake of everyone else.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 7:52PM|

Perhaps I am sick of your inability to describe why everyone (or anyone) needs a McMansion full of cheap Chinese shit and an SUV in the garage, or even how this stuff makes them happy. All you do is complain that it isn't your responsibility to explain, which implies that you can't.

Perhaps I am also sick of your claims that what one person does has little effect on third parties, or that markets, which have a "long-term" time horizon of three years can somehow make rational plans for things that will affect our great grand-children.

Unfortunately for you, though, I still love prodding you.

Sean W. Malone|1.11.10 @ 2:55AM|

I don't *need* to explain it, Chad.

Some people like big cars, big screen TVs and big houses. Some people don't. I don't, really. I have a small car & an apartment, and aside from one day wanting to have a high-quality recording studio attached to my home, I don't ever envision owning anything very big house-wise. I do value the home theatre though, with the kind of TV the state of California doesn't think I should own.

But it's entirely irrelevant what I think about that for other people, because it's not my property, or my money!

I don't give a shit what you trade your time for, provided it's voluntary and you're not taking money from people by force. Neither do I care what you subsequently spend that money on - provided again it doesn't involve violating other people's ability to do the same.

It's really that simple.

Neither you, nor I, has any right to tell people what to do with their voluntarily acquired means. As someone noted up thread, in taking this position I'm showing infinitely more respect for you than you will ever show for me. In my world, you get to do exactly what you want, regardless of whether or not I think you're an idiot. In your world, anyone who doesn't behave exactly as you think is best, they should be forced to do things your way.

You are nothing but an embarassingly pitiful wannabe-dictator. Your world view is primarily based on bitterness and envy, and some bizarre need to assert your sense of control on anyone and everyone who might not value the same things you do.

And I markets have an obviously much longer "long-term", since people regularly purchase houses with 30 year mortgages... None of that matters, the thing that's really going to fuck our grand children is the massive debt burden your idiotic ideas on government are imposing on them.

Thing is, without government manipulation and printing of money, that debt burden would have been impossible. Savings would have been encouraged as interest rates rose naturally, instead of getting held at artificially "record low" levels by guys like Greenspan & Bernanke, and then as savings went up and generated a legitimate surplus of stored wealth, our grandchildren would have all been much better off. Capital, investment and most everything generative about economic activity comes from surplus, Chad. That's something that the "progressive" governmental policies of both parties irrevocably prevents.

So I'm pretty sure you're the last person I need moralizing about "the children!" It's your dumbass positions that are ensuring limited future wealth and a more difficult means of dealing with any future problems. When you talk about things being low-profit, you're talking about things generating low surplus wealth... And that just means less money available for other investment, R&D and other innovations. It just means people are poorer.

Why do you want that so badly?

Sean W. Malone|1.11.10 @ 2:56AM|

Oh and... Fuck you, Chad.

What I do doesn't have any effect on you. Hell, you don't even know what I do.

|1.11.10 @ 2:33PM|

Work is useless if it's not needed. That's the whole problem with Disney Economics.

How can government possibly decide what 'infrastructure' is needed better than the people who need it?

You can build roads and bridges to nowhere, and eventually economies might reshape to take them into account. You can build boat launches and dog paths and eventually economies might reshape to take these into account.

But it's asinine to think those were efficiently spent. Left in the economy those resource would by definition be used in the best way according the the free choice of the populace.

Private roads get built all the time.

Private roads to nowhere never get built.

Only government can waste resources reliably.

|1.8.10 @ 5:04PM|

Yes, but this argument presumes that the private sector would not spend the money that is being taxed.

This is demonstrably not the case in today's economy. There aren't piles of unused capital languishing in bank accounts. The opposite is true.

Tony|1.8.10 @ 5:41PM|

That's why you tax the rich, who don't spend all their money. They still exist. Of course you shouldn't burden the working class with more taxes during a recession.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 6:29PM|

The rich invest their money in capital markets, which means that taxes on them are just taking money out of one pocket of the economy to give it to another. There are also laffer effects involved.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 7:36PM|

How high would Warren Buffet's capital gains taxes have to go before he quit investing and instead blew the money on the world's biggest orgy in his newly minted castle? Whatever that number is, it is a hell of a lot higher than the 15% he pays now.

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 8:46PM|

He might invest it some place else with lower tax rates. However in the context of Keynes he is investing the money anyways therefore taxing it away and spending it isn't going to increase on net the total level of spending. However, Warren Buffet can probably spend his own money smarter than you can spend it Chad.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 9:14PM|

What do you mean by "invest in places with lower tax rates". The tax rates are determined by his citizenship, not where the investments are located.

You do have a point, however. Most of the "Laffer curve" type effects that exist in the real world are rich people dodging taxes by changing the jurisdiction where they are taxed. Most of the rest are people shifting the accounting so that they pay one type of tax rather than another (say, capital gains vs income). The latter is not a big deal, as most of the "lost" revenue is made up in the other tax. The former is a problem now, but has a solution that is slowly being implemented - a gradual synchronization of tax policy around the world. The "real" Laffer effect - people choosing to sit on their asses rather than make *some* money - is largely a myth.

In any case, the ultra-rich aren't motivated by money. Hell, studies show *most* people aren't, actually...and we tend to perform worse when money is at stake. Rich people are largly motivated by winning. Even if you chop all the peacock tails in half, the peacocks keep the same relative pecking order, do they not? Warren Buffet would still have the biggest pile of cash regardless of the tax rate, and Larry Ellison would still have the biggest boat. They would be just as happy if they were paying twice the taxes.

Mr. ?|1.8.10 @ 9:28PM|

Most of the "Laffer curve" type effects that exist in the real world are rich people dodging taxes by changing the jurisdiction where they are taxed.

Like Joe Kennedy did decades ago with the family fortune?

Mr. FIFY|1.8.10 @ 9:30PM|

Bono and the other guys in U2 moved from Ireland to the Netherlands to avoid paying higher taxes:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/.....refer=home

Defend that, Chad.

Barack Obama|1.8.10 @ 9:33PM|

Let's not even bring up Li'l Timmy the Tax Cheat... er, I mean, My highly-needed and efficient Treasury guy. Rest assured, I will be standing next to him with My Healing Hand upon his unworthy, thieving shoulder, and stand ready to pluck the knife from between his fetid shoulder blades.

Eventually. Gonna let him squirm for a bit.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 9:43PM|

I don't. This is precisely why we need a world government and a global tax policy.

Thanks for making the argument for me.

The Libertarian Guy|1.8.10 @ 10:23PM|

Now we KNOW you're insane, Chad.

Tim2|1.9.10 @ 1:39AM|

Still no response to the main point, which was that Warren Buffet's money during a recession is going to be put to use regardless of whether or not it's been taxed and spent by the government.

I don't doubt that if the world had a synchronized tax rate at around 50% for top earners people would still work, however there still is the cost benefit analysis that working takes time and effort such that the higher the rate goes the more likely they are to just play golf. They won't just sit on their butts, but they might not take that big risk where they stand to lose a ton of money but where a large fraction of the gains are taken away.

The real question there is what is government going to do with all that money, and why is it ok that when allegedly all of society benefits from government that most of society pays virtually nothing for it; and what incentives such a system creates when the people realize they can just vote themselves Warren Buffet's money. Don't poor folks benefit from living in a society where people like Warren Buffet create innovations that allow poor Americans to get fat and have cars and cell phones? Of course not, they don't owe anything to society; and we owe everything to them despite the fact that many are hardly contributing.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:41PM|

Tim2|1.9.10 @ 1:39AM|#
Still no response to the main point, which was that Warren Buffet's money during a recession is going to be put to use regardless of whether or not it's been taxed and spent by the government.

Why do you believe that the velocity of money is not a constant?

How can we have roughly doubled the money supply without doubling prices?

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 4:21AM|

I'm not talking about the velocity of money, just that Warren Buffet's money isn't sitting idle such that we would have to tax it to prop up some arbitrary level of consumption. You seem to suggest that there are a bunch of malefactors of great wealth sitting on unused capital who need to have said capital taken away by government so it can be put into the economy. Your attempts to obfuscate don't deserve a response, just respond to the point. Yes there are conditions where the money supply could double without doubling prices.

The Libertarian Guy|1.8.10 @ 9:34PM|

It's Buffett's money, Chad... not yours.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 9:44PM|

I disagree at a fundamental level. What makes it "his", other than the fact that the government says so?

The Libertarian Guy|1.8.10 @ 10:23PM|

Because he earned it, Chad. It wasn't given to him.

Much as I view Buffett a fool, it's still his money.

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 10:50PM|

Justice.

|1.9.10 @ 5:35PM|

Justice is the liberal argument for taxation and welfare. One man's justice is another's theft. Who decides? We do that through representative democracy here. Go elsewhere if you don't like it or get the votes to change it.

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 10:53PM|

How about, that through his wits, ingenuity and understanding of a particular field, he EARNED IT!???

You fucking asshole, Chad.

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 10:55PM|

SLD: Except the money he got in the form of special deals... I don't know that I should have to say the SLDs, but Chad is pretty stupid, so whatever.

The Libertarian Guy|1.8.10 @ 11:03PM|

Chad cemented his lunacy with the line we need a world government and a global tax policy.

Disgusting.

Mr. ?|1.8.10 @ 11:39PM|

Usually, liberals scoff at the idea of one-world government... but Chad, here, embraces the concept. MOST puzzling.

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 12:01AM|

More to the point, ?, liberals like to refer to right-of-centerists who worry about one-world government as "conspiracy nuts"... yet, here we have a liberal hoping for one-world government.

Good points to you, Hazel. Plus Two.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 3:32PM|

Yes, LG. I believe that there should be one world government and a global synchronization of policy in order to prevent races to the bottom.

The Libertarian Guy|1.10.10 @ 12:18PM|

You just crossed the line from harmless crank to traitor, Chad.

|1.8.10 @ 11:54PM|

Yeah, well, according to Leninism-Stalinism, the only true communism would be global in extent. That's why the USSR had global ambitions. They recognized that people and capital would flee to non-communist countries unless they had nowhere else to run.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:48AM|

LG, what is inconsistent between libertarianism and a world government?

What part of the libertarian ethic stops at the water's edge?

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 12:57AM|

Why have 50 separate state governments, Chad? Would you have just one huge country governed from Washington DC?

If your answer is yes, then you are a lost cause. Whatever traumatic event turned you into this kind of creature, I cannot imagine.

|1.9.10 @ 5:38PM|

If the answer is NO, then I guess you believe in multiple, redundant Government not just Big Government. Seems a total waste of valuable resources to me.

The Libertarian Guy|1.10.10 @ 12:17PM|

No, I believe the Tenth Amendment actually MEANS something, David.

My God, you are one stupid cocksucker.

|1.10.10 @ 2:23PM|

The fact that we have a multiple state plus federal government is purely an accident of history. This is virtually unheard of elsewhere in the world. If we had created a single country like most in the world then the rights that states have would be combined into the Federal Constitution. There would be no need for the Tenth Amendment. There would have been no civil war. There would be no Senate. You are the stupid cocksucker.

|1.11.10 @ 4:02PM|

Actually it was as far from an accident as you can get. The states created the federal government by coming together to write and ratify the constitution. The intent was for individual experiments of multiple republics within a loose alliance. Just in case morons like you got a hold of some of the states, we could watch you demise and reflect on the stupidity of your philosophy in action. This is also why the Statist philosophy requires universal and inescapable conditions with the guns turned on its own population - because it sucks so bad people will try to escape and that would make you look like morons with no cattle to order about. Also, any close example of liberty and free markets reveals your system as the turd that it is.

Oh, and as an up to now, silent third party observer to this string of posts, let me just weigh in. Both you and Chad are stupid cocksuckers.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 12:47AM|

By what measure did he "earn" it. At least with my plumber, I know what I am getting, though it is difficult to know if I got a fair price. What, pray tell, did Buffet give the world in return for his billions? And how much would have he "earned" if it weren't for the education and economic system that he thrived in? How much was due to dumb luck? Being a whale know, he makes the market and couldn't lose if he tried. What would his life be like if a couple bets he made went sour decades ago? What if he had met a different set of people, and decided to be a doctor or a dancer?

Luck, circumstance, and connections all make a huge difference in our lives. So does the very core of our economic system, which currently is set up to create fewer big winners rather than lots of smaller winners. Do you honestly believe that CEO's are ten times as smart and hard-working as the CEO's of a couple generations ago? Or will you admit the obvious - that they are no different in these respects. Nor can they as a whole be luckier. So what could be the difference? The answer is that our system has changed, and as I noted above, the winners win bigger now.

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 12:59AM|

There is no equality of outcome guarantee, Chad.

BTW, what is your time worth? Do you feel guilty about the number of digits in your paycheck?

Chad|1.9.10 @ 10:26AM|

Yes, LG...which is why I give far more of my paycheck away than normal, and even make a voluntary donation to the government every year (via not claiming all the charitable deductions that I am entitled to).

It's a win-win, because the government saves hundreds of dollars with respect to my tax return, and I am saved the bother of tracking dozens of $25-$200 checks and payments.

I am sure you wouldn't know anything about it.

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 2:04PM|

You're not saving the government a damned thing, especially with the two big spenders we've had in the White House lately.

IOW, you're a useful tool for the current occupant. You're exactly the kind of person he depends upon, and I don't say that kindly.

Tim2|1.9.10 @ 2:17AM|

Yes, clearly no one earns anything; we are all mistaken. The fact that luck or circumstance gives someone an opportunity totally refutes all the subsequent work following that opportunity. Or maybe we aren't entitled to our inborn talents and abilities, from each according to ability, to each according to need right?

Of course, big government "removes" the influence of luck by stifling opportunity by reducing the reward to hard work and gumming up the works in a maze of red tape. Instead of having to network and hope that businessman gives you a chance to show your stuff, you have to hope you are granted your certificate of need to open a new clinic. Instead of private allocation of capital one has political allocation of capital, start lobbying your Senator!

Again I point out that our current system is not free market, especially with regards to your point on education which is run quite poorly by an inept government. Lots of people have gotten lucky by getting government privileges, while the tax code, government regulations, and concepts like too big to fail heavily favor things like large corporations. Small business have higher costs of capital, are less able to cope with regulations, and get far fewer goodies from the government than big ones do.

The libertarian critique of government is that it doesn't know how to manage an economy better than markets, and it has little incentive to do so even if it did; thus even if there is a small theoretical case that might justify some government intervention the regulators often get captured by those they are regulating. Then such business proceed precisely to squash opportunity for their competitors all while retaining the guise of expanding it to the little guy.

Chad|1.9.10 @ 10:40AM|

I am glad to see you are starting to crack. Once you concede that there is a "small theoretical case" that the government may outperform markets, you have turned the argument from the standard holier-than-though libertarian moral system to simply a utilitarian argument.

Given that a number of European countries have similar worker productivity numbers as the US, despite much higher tax rates, your screams and cries that tax rates just kill the rewards necessary to motivate people to do a good job are simply proven false. Indeed, a number of psychological studies have shown just the opposite - people perform WORSE when there is money explicitly on the line.

It is interesting that you bring up inborn talents and abilities, which are, in fact, luck. Take me and my brother, for example. I earn about triple what he does. I do work a bit more, maybe 10%, but that is defined by our jobs. If his place was busy, I am sure he would be working over-time and matching me. So why do I earn more? It pretty much boils down to that I was born good at math, and that unlike him, I have been blessed with good health. (Note that we are both "in shape", him even more so than me). So the difference between us boils down to luck, more than anything. Is this fair? Is it desirable? If you didn't know which one of us you were going to be, wouldn't you buy "insurance" against being my brother? Libertarianism is the lottery winners sitting around claiming that they wouldn't have.

Tim2|1.10.10 @ 4:35AM|

I consider myself more of a classical liberal like Hayek, I have never relied solely on the non aggression principle; as that can't even justify a night watchman state. So I haven't cracked, I merely disagree with you on the extent to which you think government can run things better. Further, I'm not a utilitarian in the sense that we should just maximize net utility; but that we should only undertake actions that leave all individuals better or no worse off. Again, by saying I "cracked" you further show your inability to debate anything like a rational adult; but that's right I don't deserve to be debated as an adult because I'm not an adult since you have defined being an adult as being someone with whom you agree.

Yes some people are born smarter and healthier, but its more like a lottery system where you have to walk two miles in the snow uphill both ways to get the payout. People can and often do squander the talents they are given; and do so more frequently when they aren't rewarded for such talents or can just sit around and get money for doing nothing. The fact that some people are born more talented than others doesn't mean that they don't have a claim to what they do with those talents. Those talented people create the innovations and wealth that make everyone's lives better, because in free markets they generally can't apply those talents in any way other than to provide others with what they want. Work is work, and you can't reduce the sum of a person's effort to just being born better at math or catching a lucky break.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 9:35AM|

but that we should only undertake actions that leave all individuals better or no worse off

Then we will never do anything, ever. This is an impossible standard. Any choice the government makes will create winners and losers, and so will any "indvidual" choices that you make. I have already listed a host of ways that I am negatively affected by your choice to purchase an over-sized vehicle or home, for example. So I guess that such choices should be banned? But that would lead to the absurd conclusion that all choices should be banned, because someone somewhere will be negatively affected (or at least think they are...but is that any different)?

Yes some people are born smarter and healthier, but its more like a lottery system where you have to walk two miles in the snow uphill both ways to get the payout. People can and often do squander the talents they are given; and do so more frequently when they aren't rewarded for such talents or can just sit around and get money for doing nothing.

Yes, I agree. Life is a combination of earned and unearned bounty...pretty much in equal proportions. But the odds are that someone who has little was unlucky, and likewise, someone who has a lot was lucky. You won't find a billionaire who was unlucky in life.

Those talented people create the innovations and wealth that make everyone's lives better

See my point below. We don't reward "innovators". We reward those who control the system. Innovators are more likely than the average to gain control of large system elements, but it is still a lottery. Most innovators are paid very boring salaries. I would be surprised if the average earnings of the Nobel Prize winners in Chemistry and Physics in their last full year of employment was more than $200,000 (in today's dollars). That's right about what the "base" salary of your typical Goldman Goon is. I wonder how many more innovations the Nobel winners would have come up with if they had million dollar bonuses on the line?

Sean W. Malone|1.9.10 @ 4:24PM|

Chad, failing to understand what purpose investors serve in terms of the overall economy, believes they have no purpose.

Yes, he can understand what the plumber does - cause that's obvious and easily visible. But the minute something becomes a little complex, it's too damn hard to visualize for our resident "genius" and suddenly it's all dumb luck.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 9:38AM|

Chad, failing to understand what purpose investors serve in terms of the overall economy, believes they have no purpose.

No, I fail to see the purpose of all the middle-men that capture most of the benefits of the trade opportunity created when I have a hundred grand in spare capital, and some company would like to borrow it. Banking should be boring, low profit, and provide incomes consistent with any other professional job.

Mr. ?|1.10.10 @ 12:13PM|

Chad, to you EVERYTHING should be "low profit".

Chad|1.10.10 @ 11:25PM|

Banking should be low profit because it is a commodity service that has been practiced for ages. It requires no particularly arcane talents and no physical work.

The only "innovations" these people have been coming up with were clever ways to pad their own pockets by obscuring what the hell they were doing. Either that, or you honestly believe that THEY believed if they sliced, diced, and trade piles of steaming shit enough times, it somehow managed to turn into gold.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 2:08PM|

...Chad, you've already clearly exposed that you have no clue what investment bankers & stock brokers do.

The fact that you view them purely as middlemen and don't grasp that good ones serve generally very important functions as to direct capital to profitable projects, which subsequently generates new wealth and provides returns (rather than losses) to millions of average, middle or working class people who have money saved in banks & 401ks... I can't really even go into all of this as it's exceedingly complex, but I just get so tired of seeing you whine about stuff you clearly don't have a clue about, Chad.

It's asinine.

Furthermore, so what? If a middleman picks up 10% of your hundred grand, that's 10,000 that will go into their bank - which will then either be spent or invested. So it goes to building a McMansion... Ok... Who built that McMansion? Who furnished it? Who installed the expensive A/V system? Who cleans it and does its landscaping?

Either the money goes into paying for stuff - or it goes into investments.

The fact that you don't actually understand banking is about the best evidence that you should have nothing what so ever to do with any decisions ever involving controlling it.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 3:56PM|

The fact that you view them purely as middlemen and don't grasp that good ones serve generally very important functions as to direct capital to profitable projects

No, that's what they SHOULD do. What they really do is direct most if it to their own pockets. In case you haven't noticed, these brilliant bankers have somehow managed to make trillions in the last couple decades, despite being unable to beat the time-honored strategy of hiding shiny rocks under one's back porch. Frankly, I can't think of a single thing that demonstrates more strongly that how much you get paid can have little relationship to how much value you bring.

What's your explanation for the explosion in executive pay the last few decades? Do you really believe they are just that much smarter and hard-working than their predecessors?
Or are you willing to admit that changes in the system and its rules have allowed the people at the top to keep a larger fraction of the wealth we create.

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 4:24PM|

The explosion of executive pay is precisely a result of a continually expanding money supply which goes first through the hands of major investment banks. It's an issue of collusion with government and having a Federal Reserve system printing trillions of dollars in new currency, devaluing everyone's money which is the cause of the thing you complain most about.

It's something I have repeatedly argued against, it's something that has been opposed by most of the libertarian community for decades, and something which - if you understood it at all - would possibly get you to shut the fuck up occasionally.

It was an inevitable consequence of the loss of the gold standard, and one that was expressly warned about. For fucks sake, the collusion of bankers and government was a reason Andrew Jackson opposed the Second National Bank in the 1830s... This isn't a new phenomenon, but your ignorance of history & economic pervades your thinking on the subject, thus leading you to believe it's somehow a random result of greed and freedom. There is no meaningful freedom when a central authority is the one in charge of controlling interest rates & the currency itself, Chad. It's pretty simple. So when the Fed - a largely secret conglomeration of bankers - has the power to create money out of nothing, and then most of that money goes directly into the pockets of those very same bankers and their upper echelon executives, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THIS???

It doesn't make the function of speculation, investing, or stock-brokering any less valid, it just means that you're being fucked by central control of the currency and misplacing the blame on people down the line. No, I don't think they're any smarter than they were 30-40 years ago... So I'm going to turn the question around. When Bretton-Woods finally collapsed officially in 1971 - why do you think it's coincidental that the following things have happened:

1. The US has gone from the worlds biggest creditor to the world's largest debtor.
2. A huge salary disparity, primarily between banking executives and everyone else, has developed.
3. Government has expanded tremendously.
4. We've been in states of perpetual warfare.
5. The value of the dollar has tanked substantially, thus lowering our overall standard of living as compared with what it otherwise would have been.

Why do you not see the fucking connection, Chad? It's not rocket science.

Learn to understand the goddamn cause of the things you're arguing against for once, would you?

Sean W. Malone|1.10.10 @ 4:28PM|

Chad, your continual failure to understand the big picture of these things and make the basic logical connections will always keep you in the dark about reality - and I suspect will perpetually result in a state of bitterness and envy as you constantly direct your rage on the unfairness of wealth at individuals, instead of placing it on government force, where it belongs.

Chad|1.10.10 @ 7:46PM|

What's next? Are you going to blame global warming and the Macarena on the expanding monetary supply, too?

And I noted earlier, government hasn't been expanding the last thirty years, nor has warfare for that matter (it has been decidedly shrinking). The dollars value has steadily declined vs other currencies, but this was inevitable and continues to be so without a radical reduction in the amount of currency available. The dollar has to fall until prices and wages are similar around the world. You may as well get over it. I have no idea what connect you see between executive pay and money supply. Can you show me some peer-reviewed evidence showing the correlation (international in nature, please).

Sean W. Malone|1.11.10 @ 3:13AM|

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahah...

Government hasn't been expanding the last 30 years?

I can't even take that post seriously.

The Libertarian Guy|1.11.10 @ 12:20PM|

That IS quite the punny Chad put out, no?

|1.11.10 @ 2:49PM|

The explosion of executive pay is precisely a result of a continually expanding money supply which goes first through the hands of major investment banks.

Bingo.

Income diversity is a product of government.

It's pretty obvious unless you are brain dead.

Wealth can occur 'serendipitously'. Someone can invent something. Someone can find a gold deposit.

But for income, the rate of wealth acquisition over time, to be steadily diverse requires a continual use of government force. Doctors. Lawyers. CEOs. Bankers. etc.

If you win the lottery you will hire people to do stuff or buy stuff other people make. You had an increase in wealth, but is your income likely to change? Likely the opposite in fact. You could invest and in the sort term you might make more money than previously in the stock market, but that in itself is a product of government intervention. A continually rising stock market is a result of fiat currency and, as we should now clearly understand really isn't continually rising.

SKR|1.8.10 @ 11:15PM|

really, positivism?

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 6:31PM|

Re: Tony,

That's why you tax the rich, who don't spend all their money.

Sure, absolutely right! Those rich people, unwilling to spend their money! Of course, they are taxed BEFORE they get to spend their money - wouldn't they spend even MORE if they were taxed LESS before they get to SPEND their money?

They still exist. Of course you shouldn't burden the working class with more taxes during a recession.

Indeed, we should tax the UNworking class - like the welfare moms and the pensioners.

The Libertarian Guy|1.9.10 @ 12:26AM|

Tony is using the Scrooge McDuck template, wherein rich people have huge vaults full of money which they jump into off of diving boards.

|1.11.10 @ 2:38PM|

They do use all their money. They either spend, and thus employ, or save and thus make resources available for other people to borrow.

Yet you suppose that the government who has no personal stake in using the resources efficiently would ever do so. History shows the opposite.

Your scenario is a fantasy. They don't sit on their money.

Even if they did 'hoard' currency (buy gold and bury it) that would merely cause existing currency to be worth more. So if the rich actually did what your fantasy proposes it would merely make your money worth more.. as the previously rich people became effectively penniless.

JB|1.8.10 @ 1:55PM|

I say we start by cutting out pieces of Mrs. Obama's pie.

|1.8.10 @ 4:43PM|

Racist!

The Piefucker|1.8.10 @ 1:57PM|

Where is this pie of government?
Too big? Too small? All I want is acquiescent.
I hope it was made with the bluest of blueberries
or reddest of strawberries or cherries.
No pie is too good for fucking, nor too poor.
But to fuck the best pies is what I am here for.

hmm|1.8.10 @ 2:02PM|

Excellent article.

My nipples are still hard from reading it.

No I do not want a fucking hot apple pie.

|1.8.10 @ 2:07PM|

How many nipples do you have?

Be honest. No one will judge you. In Asia, a 3rd nipple is a sign of virility.

hmm|1.8.10 @ 2:16PM|

sadly only two. But hey are huge!

|1.8.10 @ 2:32PM|

Mine are quite small. I often lose track of them. :-(

The Gobbler|1.8.10 @ 3:09PM|

I got me some puffies.

Bill Clinton|1.8.10 @ 11:11PM|

That's okay, sugar-booger... I still like 'em!

Tim2|1.8.10 @ 2:16PM|

The contradiction in the progressive rhetoric is more basic than that; if economics really is a zero sum game, how is it that we can put some tiny tax on rich people to fund "green jobs" and usher in some new era of eco-friendly prosperity? The same goes for education. Progressives generally imply gains to things like green jobs and education in excess of costs imposed on rich people. It's just supply side in reverse, they are arguing that some uses for money are more productive than others and that allegedly these benefits will trickle up to the rest of society.

The zero sum contradiction is similar to two other major progressive contradictions as well. One being that no matter what government intervention a libertarian can point to, it is always the free market's fault because the intervention no matter it's size is small by comparison. However these same people go out and write a book called nudge where minor tweaks in the "choice architecture" and minor taxes on things like carbon, smoking, alcohol and fatty foods can solve major social problems resulting in major social benefits. I actually like libertarian paternalism, provided that ever important "opt out" is maintained; without that it is just paternalism.

The final and most important contradiction is that the people allegedly too stupid to take care of themselves by reading complex documents like health insurance contracts are expected somehow to make the right choice on even more complex issues like who should regulate health insurance contracts while fighting wars, maintaining domestic order, and regulating the rest of the economy. Voters' ignorance isn't distributed equally across ideologies so they can't cancel each other out, laying waste to the progressives' only claim to government; that they are smarter and more moral than everyone else enabling them to make all the right decisions. How else could they know how much health insurance should cost, what it should cover, and have the willpower to resist the special interests seeking to capture their regulatory body? How can such progressives expect to be elected, and how can they draw upon any sort of democratic legitimacy when they implicitly assume that the will of the people is formed out of ignorance and they are required to regulate it? Remember, progressives don't need federalism or a constitution of enumerated powers, we should just give all power to them, they'll decide how much we should get back, and they will use the rest of it to take care of us.

So basically society has a fixed pool of wealth until progressives come along to re allocate it, by means similar to other government interventions progressives claim couldn't possibly affect the economy, enacted by enlightened progressive bureaucrats chosen on the basis of "the public interest" by people who they think can't even understand the things the progressives are supposed to regulate. My gosh, after thousands of years of human history we have finally progressed to a system that works!

Chad|1.8.10 @ 6:11PM|

It's funny how hard you guys are beating on this strawman, when it is the RIGHT who keeps screaming that stimulus can't possibly work, because any money the government spends must come directly out of private investment.

Ahh, the irony of partisanship...

Actually, the bigger irony is that you see the concept of "zero sum" as black-and-white. Most things are not strictly zero-sum, but fairly close to it. If the government spends money on X, it can't spend it on Y. However, spending on either X or Y (or returning the money to Z) all have a series of tangential effects which affect the total available. Hence, it is not strictly zero-sum. However, these tangential effects usually are much smaller than the primary effects, so it is *close* to zero-sum.

Mr. ?|1.8.10 @ 9:25PM|

So... if we spend all available money on government projects... and none in the private sector... we'll all be fabulously farting-through-silk wealthy. Got it.

|1.10.10 @ 2:30PM|

Mr? Excuse me, but I think that is the whole point of free enterprise and competition. The dealer with the lowest profit margin gets the majority of the sales, all other things being equal, and makes it up on volume. This is the mass-production economy.

|1.11.10 @ 2:54PM|

Government spending is less than zero sum. The forces which create efficiencies are absent from government. If you spend your budget you get a larger budget.

Private spending has the potential to be greater than zero and rewards greater than zero sum. If you overshoot your budget you lose the contract or lose your business.

This is why throughout history the more government spends the higher unemployment is.

There is no zero sum.

Government spending is decreasing sum.

Private spending is increasing sum.

vince|1.8.10 @ 2:30PM|

You've done it, Matt Welch- I'm ordering a subscription. No, I'm going to pay full price for each issue at the news stand. My journey from leftist to libertarian is complete.

A few years ago I was writing letters to my congresswoman demanding single-payer health insurance, railing against free trade, demanding higher business taxes, and voting for Ralph Nader. Today my eyes are opened, thanks in large part to Reason. In the words of Michelle Obama's Princeton thesis, Thank-you.

Pingback| 1.8.10 @ 2:32PM

More Than Zero - Reason Magazine Private Me links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:

Movie 'The Yellow Handkerchief' Can I Switch Back To Chapter 30 After Switching To The Post 9/11 … » More Than Zero - Reason Magazine |1.8.10 @ 1:06PM|#. Originally p osted here: More Than Zero - Reason Magazine tags: cloud-infrastructure, magically-produce, money-doesn, most-obvious, multiplier-effect, nation, spending-the-same, work-together | TF Magazine News: OPIC backs trade deal for BankMed - the…

Ted S.|1.8.10 @ 2:35PM|

Who could have predicted that, as Veronique de Rugy points out in “Who Wants to Tax a Millionaire?” (page 16), a 1969 tax aimed at just 155 of the country’s richest people would end up affecting 4 million Americans 40 years later?

That was the point. These people don't have good intentions.

K-Y|1.8.10 @ 3:37PM|

I also wondered that it could have been so innocent.

Chad|1.8.10 @ 6:37PM|

When it wasn't adjusted for inflation, it was easy to predict.

The Libertarian Guy|1.8.10 @ 11:06PM|

Which makes it a bad idea in 1969 AND now.

|1.8.10 @ 2:38PM|

George W. Bush had the answer all along: make the pie higher.

|1.8.10 @ 5:14PM|

Did a great job of that, didn't he?

hmm|1.8.10 @ 5:14PM|

I thought Bill Clinton was the fan of large pie?

Bill Clinton|1.8.10 @ 11:10PM|

I'm not a fan of large pie. Why do you think I fucked around on Hillary all these years?

kodiac1221|1.8.10 @ 2:43PM|

David:
the pie does grow magically, if I trade you my car for your horse it cannot be zero-sum. I would not trade my horse unless I am sure that it is more valuable to ME than the car, likewise you only buy the car because it is of more value to you than the horse.

If the trade were zero sum the trade would make no net gain or loss, with no net gain I have no incentive to buy your horse...

Thus the VALUE WE ASSIGN things comes and goes, moves, and sways. Unless I think I am getting a higher valued object I will not make the trade and neither will you.

|1.8.10 @ 4:31PM|

Ah, great example, a zero-sum game means that we have a horse and a car before we make the exchange and we have a horse and a car afterward. How much people "like" their horse or car hasn't changed. You can say they are now both more valuable because the people like what they have gotten more than that which they have given. This is a totally unproven assumption and can be easily refuted. Ask the person with the horse to give a horse and a goat instead if they think the car is more valuable to them than the horse. Not happening, right? The economic truth, no imaginary emotion but real value, is that the two are completely equal before the trade and equal after or no trade would occur. In practice, of course, both parties may feel cheated or feel victorious after the trade but that doesn't make it true or false. There could just as well be a reduction of wealth instead of an increase and the only thing that can be assumed is that the trade was equal. Zero-sum.

Jersey Patriot|1.8.10 @ 4:48PM|

This is colossally stupid. I can value a car as worth more than a horse, but less than a horse and a goat combined. The fact that I made the horse/car trade, but not a horse+goat/car trade, tells me I value the car between H and H+G.

Bad Joke Setup Guy|1.8.10 @ 10:07PM|

A horse and a goat go into a bar, and... uh... stuff.

Reformed Republican|1.8.10 @ 4:54PM|

The economic truth, no imaginary emotion but real value, is that the two are completely equal before the trade and equal after or no trade would occur.

No. You have it backward. If the horse and car were valued equally by both individuals, there would be no trade.

|1.8.10 @ 4:55PM|

You really don't understand even the most basic concept of trade.
How can you explain the stock market, then? Millions upon millions of trades happen there every day. If, as you say, all trades are zero sums, why the fuck are all these people trading? Each trade comes with a cost (commissions) so are they all just jerking off and paying for the privilege? NO! Each person who buys a stock thinks the stock is worth MORE than the price they're paying. (Or will be at some point in the future.) At the same time, the seller on that same deal thinks the price is too high. Both interests are satisfied by one single trade.
This is really basic stuff.

|1.10.10 @ 9:03PM|

Applied to the stock market this is even more obvious. There is an immediate satisfaction and hope of future reward but it is clearly zero-sum. As soon as the next ticker comes through they will each begin to find out whether their trade was a success. As each stock rises or falls it will be easily measurable whether one or the other got the better deal. As long as both still own their new stock we can check from time to time and see how they are both doing. One stock will outperform the other and that trader is the one that won. The other stock may also go up but the lost opportunity of selling the better stock means one guy lost. I don't think the guy gives a damn that he was satisfied with the trade at the time it was made, do you? The win on one side exactly matches the loss on the other side. The people are satisfied with the trade because they both thought they were going to win. Not understanding reality doesn't mean they both got something extra of value.

|1.8.10 @ 4:56PM|

How much people "like" their horse or car hasn't changed.

(1) I don't know why you would say that an exchange that has increased the happiness of both parties is zero-sum.

(2) Even if you think we shouldn't count subjective preferences at all in our thinking (and be careful, as ditching subjectivity kicks the pins out from under most redistribution arguments), why shouldn't the exchange make us both better off in a more objective sense because we can each put our new thing to better use?

I had a car, but needed a horse to plow my field. You had a horse, but needed a car to drive to work. The economy has gained from our exchange, hasn't it?

|1.9.10 @ 11:52AM|

It's really not that complicated and it's really mainstream economic analysis. Do you understand what this means, "The potential future benefits of a trade or purchase are already reflected in the transaction price." Or to go back to third grade:

I have a horse which I want but I will produce nothing tangible with it. The horse could be used by a guy down the street who will double his income with it. If I want the horse, I have to pay for the horse and extra for the pleasure I expect to get. No free steak knives. But that's not all, I have to pay for the additional income that the guy down the street could make off the horse or he'll outbid me. In a transaction, you always pay for an item based on it's highest potential earning power, not actual use. You pay for it up front, therefore, if you don't get the pleasure or income potential you expected you lose. If it does pan out as planned, which is a real big if, the best you can do is come out even because you already paid based on maximum potential benefits. No free lunch, zero-sum, you get what you paid for. Now that I have a horse, I might take that resource and add some ideas and work and come up with a way to make lots of money but now I'm adding extra resources to make the extra goods or wealth so it's a new ballgame. If you are happier or wealthier after a single transaction then you paid for it.

Jersey Patriot|1.9.10 @ 3:10PM|

It's really not that complicated and it's really mainstream economic analysis. Do you understand what this means, "The potential future benefits of a trade or purchase are already reflected in the transaction price."

It means someone believes in the myth of perfect information, which means that someone has little grasp of the real world.

In a transaction, you always pay for an item based on it's highest potential earning power, not actual use.

What is the highest potential earning power of a carton of eggs?

|1.9.10 @ 3:48PM|

FAIL, FAIL, FAIL...Class over. If making serum for vaccines is a more profitable use of that carton of eggs then you pay for it based on that use, not eating. In the case of eggs, the highest potential earning power is eating.

In the case of corn, however, the potential use of corn for ethanol became more profitable and the price skyrocketed.

Remember supply and demand.

Old Mexican|1.9.10 @ 7:17PM|

Re: David Hennessy,

If making serum for vaccines is a more profitable use of that carton of eggs then you pay for it based on that use, not eating.

You seem to forget that people value eggs for different things - including egging your house. And the price WILL reflect this, promise.

In the case of eggs, the highest potential earning power is eating.

Yes, I earned my omelet.

In the case of corn, however, the potential use of corn for ethanol became more profitable and the price skyrocketed. Remember supply and demand.

Never mind the subsidies - still, you got it exactly BACKWARDS. The demand for corn INCREASES, and THEN the price of corn goes up, making it more profitable COMPARED to other agricultural products.

We'll get the soul transplant, Dave, if you promise to take those economics lessons you sorely need.

|1.10.10 @ 2:55PM|

"You seem to forget that people value eggs for different things - including egging your house. And the price WILL reflect this, promise."
You are a total moron, Mex. All you did was give another example of an alternate use for eggs. That just helps prove the point.

"Never mind the subsidies - still, you got it exactly BACKWARDS. The demand for corn INCREASES, and THEN the price of corn goes up, making it more profitable COMPARED to other agricultural products."

No, you have it BACKWARDS because you didn't notice the word "potential". Demand increased because a potential use that would be more profitable was seen by farmers trying to maximize their profits. Most guessed wrong but we pay for percieved potential whether or not it pans out. You see, in farming, which I have done, the seeds have to be planted long before the level of demand for the product is known. Same with any start-up business. You can do all the studies you want about how much demand there might be for your new product but you are most likely wrong. You invest, start the business, arrange the marketing, pay for shipping and put in on the shelf BEFORE you actually KNOW if there is a DEMAND. That's why it is so risky and why most start-ups fail. It is also why the reward is so great for those who succeed.

It's a little more complicated than either of us could fully explain in a short post but I think you understand about the futures market which is where percieved potential is monetized.

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 5:00PM|

Re: David Hennessy,

Ah, great example, a zero-sum game means that we have a horse and a car before we make the exchange and we have a horse and a car afterward.

David, you are confusing wealth maximization with conjuring up goods. The two traders ended up WEALTHIER because they each now have something they value MORE than before.

How much people "like" their horse or car hasn't changed.

Yes, it has - a person that did not have a HORSE before NOW has one. Another person that did not have a CAR before NOW has one. Things DID change. Again, you think that wealth maximization is simply conjuring up goods from the ground, which is simplistic.

This is a totally unproven assumption and can be easily refuted. Ask the person with the horse to give a horse and a goat instead if they think the car is more valuable to them than the horse.

If the man with the CAR does not WANT a goat, certainly the person with the HORSE does NOT have to offer a goat. Where does your refutation reside, David?

The economic truth, no imaginary emotion but real value, is that the two are completely equal before the trade and equal after or no trade would occur.

David, they are not equal goods. If the person with the car values a horse MORE than his car, he WILL trade with the man that values his horse LESS than the car. The goods do not have EQUAL value - they have DIFFERENT values, for each of the new owners. Yiu're thinking in terms of medium of exchange.

In practice, of course, both parties may feel cheated or feel victorious after the trade but that doesn't make it true or false.


Huh . . . what?

There could just as well be a reduction of wealth instead of an increase and the only thing that can be assumed is that the trade was equal. Zero-sum.



But the trade WAS equal, David - equally free. Both parties left the trade better off. If YOU believe they were not better off, that only constitutes YOUR opinion, since you cannot presume to either read minds or be in the shoes of both traders.

|1.8.10 @ 5:40PM|

You guys have made me laugh my ass off today, I haven't been at all offended or angry. Put a few amatuer economists in a room and nothing but absurdities can arise. Some of you are quite eloquent in affirming my points, thanks. And for you Old Mexican, an equal trade cannot lead to unequal value no matter how hard you try to make it so. Whether it is a goat or a penny, the value of both items is still equal or the extra amount would have been negotiated in a perfect theoretical world. The only "wealth" will be produced later as the horse and car may be used in different ways by different people. You make the assumption that both will create wealth when you don't know whether that will be the case or not. As a famous professor once said, Assumptions make an ASS out of U and ME. I'm not the ass because I don't buy the assumption. Gotta go for today, gotta go read my Marx or do some unspeakable act to a farm animal. I will be back, too much fun not to.

Gilbert Martin|1.8.10 @ 5:44PM|

This guy seems to have a joe-like habit of celebrating imaginary victories.

SKR|1.8.10 @ 11:37PM|

I thought we had already established that value and money weren't the same thing.>.

|1.10.10 @ 3:01PM|

Value is part of the economic system when it is monetized, otherwise you would just have to take a guess. Money and value are not the same thing but at a point in time when a trasaction occurs, it is equivalent. In fact, a transaction measures the real value of money. Next transaction it might be different.

Sean W. Malone|1.12.10 @ 8:23PM|

More or less correct. Money is just one way of *measuring* value at the point of a trade.

But value in and of itself is subjective & ordinal, so outside of a trade, there's no way to measure it.

|1.11.10 @ 3:14PM|

And for you Old Mexican, an equal trade cannot lead to unequal value no matter how hard you try to make it so.

He never said that. If you're so confused you have to make false claims you might do better arguing with a conservative. They might be babmoozled.

The only "wealth" will be produced later as the horse and car may be used in different ways by different people.

He never said otherwise.

You are seriously confused.

Wealth may, or may not be created as a result of the transaction. At the point of the transaction both parties judge it to likely be advantageous or they would not have made it.

If one or both have a capacity to more efficiently use what they traded for than what they traded then indeed wealth is created. There is more stuff than there would have been otherwise.

This may or may not occur. But both parties are certainly motivated to make it occur.

This process of course never occurs in the government. If you make efficient use of resources you will receive fewer resources. If you make inefficient use of resources you will receive more resources.

Which is just one mechanism whereby government destroys wealth.

Another way is intervening in markets so that people make bad choices. Mortgagees and mortgagors both were pushed to make bad choices by government policy. Health care market interventions encourage people to make bad choices. The entire fiat credit system encourages early production development (risk forcibly priced too low) which of course causes massive disruption when the correction occurs, as we see. Resources are wasted or a huge scale as production capacity is much higher than the market demands. 'Stimulus' can't help because it cannibalizes the genuine productive bits of the economy that are extant to temporarily extend the lifespan of the bits that do not address real market demand.

You can subsidize buggy whip production but it does nothing to help a sustainable economy.

|1.8.10 @ 5:08PM|

What, so a world where the guy who WANTS the horse gets the horse, and the guy who WANTS the car gets the car has no added value beyond the situation where neither has what he desires?

Quit reading Marx. Idiot.

|1.8.10 @ 6:48PM|

One more time, idiot. The man had the horse because he valued the horse and still does. It wasn't worthless to him and I'm sure he wants both the horse and the car. Sure, there is an expectation(hope) on both sides that there will be a tiny, incremental percentage of perceived increase of wealth. In mathematics that resolves very quickly to zero as you ask "How much more would either of you give?" A goat? NO. A chicken? NO. A penny? NO. Therfore the difference is less than a penny or zero for all practical purposes. No wealth creation! Third-grade math.

Sean W. Malone|1.8.10 @ 9:09PM|

David, it's really amazing how poorly you grasp such basic ideas as subjective value... If I value a car equal to a horse, and I already have a car, then I don't trade. There'd be no point! Going back into monetary terms it'd be like me trading a $20 bill for... Umm... ANOTHER $20 bill!

What the hell use is there for that?

The only way I'd trade you my car for your horse is if I *value* the horse more than I value my car.

You're trying to make this an equation, as if you can input an objective valuation for a car and a horse - and you simply can't. What you value and what I value are entirely different both in type and in level... Another example: I know plenty of vegetarians - I'm not a vegetarian. So... For me, BBQ Ribs have a value that is typically greater than 0. Up to, I dunno... $20 or more in some cases.

However, to my vegetarian friends, the BBQ Ribs do not command $20, or even $1... For a vegetarian, ribs have 0 value. In fact, some of them are offended by meat, and thus place even negative value on it (i.e. if they had some meat they would give or throw it away just to be rid of it).

Value is entirely in the eye of the beholder. But it's absolutely NOT true that there is "equal" value for trade to happen - in fact, quite the opposite, I must value the thing I'm getting more than I value the thing I'm giving away. And in return, the person I'm trading with must do the same. So going back to the horse/car. You must value my car MORE than you value your horse, and I must value your horse MORE than I value my car. When that happens, we trade. Then we each walk away having happily acquired the thing we desired more than the thing we already had - thus making us both wealthier in the process.

It's not really that complicated, but having read through these comments kind of after the fact, your strange condescension about economics as if you have the slightest clue what you're talking about is definitely getting old.

|1.10.10 @ 9:14PM|

I have some subjective value in my toilet that I'd like to sell you. No one else thinks it's worth shit. The value you talk about is an illusion and until it resolves into something real, it is nothing but what Obama sold us, "Hope". It is extremely valuable and worthless at the same time. It just depends.

|1.10.10 @ 9:18PM|

I'm a little tea pot,
Short and stout
Here is my handle
Here is my spout
When I get all steamed up,
Hear me shout
Just tip me over and pour me out!

I'm a clever teapot,
Yes it's true
Here let me show you
What I can do
I can change my handle
And my spout
Just tip me over and pour me out!

Sean W. Malone|1.11.10 @ 3:49AM|

Yeah, David. See, you've figured out the lesson here, yet again unwittingly. Value is only knowable at the point of trade. It's subjective, in that it's different for all parties... And that's fine, but things are economically valueless until a trade happens - if you can't find someone to trade with you, because you're trying to sell... Well... Shit, then I guess your shit isn't worth anything.

Too bad.

anonymous|1.8.10 @ 9:27PM|

"The man had the horse because he valued the horse and still does."

Horses are a product of nature, not created through the labor of the workers. Therefore the horse had no value in the first place. Looks like the guy with the car got hosed.

'Sure, there is an expectation(hope) on both sides that there will be a tiny, incremental percentage of perceived increase of wealth. In mathematics that resolves very quickly to zero as you ask "How much more would either of you give?" A goat? NO. A chicken? NO. A penny? NO.'

That isn't a fact, it's an assertion on your part. Just because we didn't add pennies, goats, or chickens into the story doesn't mean that one of two wouldn't be willing to give a goat, chicken, or blowjob to get what the other guy has.

If it was truly equal and zero-sum, then it wouldn't favor any direction. If you're starving and have a backpack full of penicillin, and another guy is sick and has an ice chest full of food, it's obvious that the sick guy will give food to the hungry guy in exchange for medicine. According to your economic theories (let's call them "Downsbabianism"), the hungry guy would be just as willing to trade his new ice chest worth of food to the sick guy in exchange for the sick guy giving up the life-saving pills.

No wonder so many people died under Communism. It's like the world's largest Darwin award.

|1.11.10 @ 3:27PM|

You're entertainingly ignorant.

What you are attempting to comprehend is the price mechanism. You are not succeeding very well.

Both parties make the trade voluntarily because they think they can better utilize what they get than what they gave. If one or both people choose correctly wealth will be created than if the transaction had been made.

Zero sum would result from no deal.

I am a rancher and you are a tanner. Had we not traded you would eat more poorly and perhaps less and I would be less well outfitted than I could otherwise and not be able to work in inclement weather.

The exchange doesn't create wealth at the point of exchange, however it is the necessary prerequisite for wealth creation.

We can both work more and create more than than had we not traded. This means prices go down, and this benefits everyone else who needs leather goods or beef to eat.

All those everyone else's are
doing the same thing.

Except the parasitic class in government.

|1.8.10 @ 2:55PM|

Point of order: Is making a "someone certainly read his copy of Marxism for Dummies a few times" joke redundant?

Davy is either pretending to be a Marxist or is a Marxist. Either way, he's not worth another keyboard click or pixel.

Citizen Nothing|1.8.10 @ 3:14PM|

Actually, SF, isn't the very title Marxism for Dummies redundant?

Warty|1.8.10 @ 3:26PM|

CORPRORATE STOOGE FREE YOR MIND

|1.8.10 @ 4:44PM|

Davy is either pretending to be a Marxist or is a Marxist. Either way, he's not worth another keyboard click or pixel.

Not true. If nothing else he can be a shining example of how stupid, how utterly nonsensical the Leftist is. While I admit his trolling to date has been pretty weak, we have lost Joe, and Chony/MNG can't be expected to carry all of the trolling duties themselves.

I give him a week.

|1.8.10 @ 6:24PM|

Hey, when I first came here some called me a troll.

|1.8.10 @ 6:54PM|

And your point is?

|1.8.10 @ 7:51PM|

You were. We cured you.

|1.8.10 @ 5:33PM|

I think I'm actually stupider from reading only a few of it's posts.

It's like virulent, unyielding and limitless stupidity, all smeared on a sphere of neutronium and dropped into a super-massive black hole, only to have it exit at the extact center of the universe, explode and expand at near infinite velocity outward at a point in time prior to it falling into the black hole.

It's stupidity, so densely stupid, that it violates causality.

|1.8.10 @ 11:23PM|

Agreed. He's like someone who just put down his abridged copy of Das Capital and has run off with all the ferver of a new convert to spread the good word to the heathens.

Very similar to Chad, but with more "I have seen the light!" zealotry.

Warty|1.8.10 @ 3:23PM|

Newtroll has some promise. He's got enough smugness and impenetrably confused language, but his insults are sadly flaccid. I hope he sticks around long enough to get better at his faggotry.

|1.8.10 @ 4:44PM|

I love the name Newtroll and will wear it proudly but I wonder how many other nice people have been blasted by the old trolls for not toeing the party line. Lot of ingrown arguments here, maybe the guy who told me to fuck my mother has a point. Isolation of ideas leads the same result as relatives having sex - a guy who plays wonderful banjo and drools on himself. My insults are unecessary when a guy named Warty calls me a troll.

|1.8.10 @ 4:55PM|

Isolation of ideas leads the same result as relatives having sex

From your posts to date, you seem to have experience with both.

|1.8.10 @ 6:21PM|

The answer to the question you posed this morning in another thread is:

No, I am not Alex Jones.

|1.8.10 @ 7:13PM|

No? Too bad. It would be really cool if you were a world renowned conspiracy theorist.

Banjos Kick Ass!|1.8.10 @ 9:13PM|

Well said Davey, an open and free debate of ideas only makes us all grow.

And FYI, I'm a chick, and I don't drool on myself (well not anymore at least).

Bela Fleck|1.8.10 @ 10:05PM|

Indeed, banjos DO kick ass.

Warty|1.8.10 @ 10:25PM|

LOLOLOL YOU MADE FUN OF MY ALIAS LOLOLOL

Seriously, newfag. Get better.

K-Y|1.8.10 @ 3:38PM|

The pie is a lie.

hmm|1.8.10 @ 5:16PM|

But I like pie.

|1.8.10 @ 5:34PM|

There is no pie.

Once you understand that, it's all very simple.

Eric Cartman|1.8.10 @ 5:41PM|

No... more... peh...

Dr Saussed|1.8.10 @ 8:17PM|

I will not accept this lie.
This lie that the pie is a lie.
For I just had pie, pie that I held quite high.
Pie that was neither far nor nigh.
And I did like this pie.
This pie that was not a lie.

Eric Cartman|1.8.10 @ 9:22PM|

I could not possibly eat one more bite of this delicious pie.

Oh, wait... yes, I can.

Jason|1.8.10 @ 3:45PM|

Would it be possible to make those references to other articles into links?

Sam Grove|1.8.10 @ 5:12PM|

why won't people who love to make
zero-sum arguments about the economy apply their own lessons to government spending?

Because it doesn't suit their agenda of deciding who gets pie.

Ska|1.8.10 @ 5:21PM|

Punch and pie....

Old Mexican|1.8.10 @ 5:59PM|

The discussion with Ignoramus Maximus continues:

Re: David Hennessy,

And for you Old Mexican, an equal trade cannot lead to unequal value no matter how hard you try to make it so.

Indeed, because obviously, a horse has the same value as a car. It was a miracle that the trade happened at all!

Whether it is a goat or a penny, the value of both items is still equal or the extra amount would have been negotiated in a perfect theoretical world.

Well, sure, but since the owner of the car traded for only the horse, it is logical to conclude that the guy only wanted THE HORSE for HIS CAR, so why assume that the car could have been traded for more if the guy did not ASK for more? Who's doing the trade, you or the owner of the car?

The only "wealth" will be produced later as the horse and car may be used in different ways by different people.

Again, you are confusing "wealth" with conjuring up goods. Production of goods serves to make MORE TRADES and the producer can certainly increase HIS wealth by producing something HE desires. But wealth maximization is achieved through trade as well, which means you can trade your crap for someone else's crap and now both of you will have crap that each of you value MORE, thus you feel more wealthy.

You make the assumption that both will create wealth when you don't know whether that will be the case or not.

No, you dimwit - I don't assume they will create wealth in the future. They are wealthier as the RESULT of their TRADE! If the car owner gets a horse HE desired and the horse owner got a car HE desired, they are both wealthier, because now they both have things the value MORE.

You (again) are confusing "wealth" with just conjuring up goods. The production of goods can lead to more future trades or satisfy the producer's needs or wants, but wealth is mostly obtained by TRADE, not by production alone.

As a famous professor once said, Assumptions make an ASS out of U and ME.

You said it, baby! You made assumptions galore - like assuming you understood economics!

Jean|1.9.10 @ 12:31AM|

According to the Piagetian theory of the development of human intelligence, only around 30 percent of the population actually makes it to the last stage of intellectual development - "formal operations." This could explain why people like David (and there are legions of them out there) simply cannot grasp elementary logic and economic reasoning, no matter how well or thoroughly you try to break these concepts down for them. I suppose it's worth a shot, but if David is in the 70 percent group - and it appears likely that he is, it's a shot in the dark.