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Second Amendment Roundup: Four Points on the Wolford Argument
Comments by Akhil and Vikram Amar in Scotusblog.com are off base.
In a recent article in Scotusblog.com, Akhil and Vikram Amar attempt to answer four concerns raised in the Justices' questioning in oral argument in Wolford v. Lopez. However, at each turn in their defense of the Hawaii law, their answers fall flat.
First, the Amars address the concern that Hawaii treats the Second Amendment as a second-class right. The Justices probed Neal Katyal's position, questioning whether the government could presumptively ban speech on private property without the property owner's express approval. The Amars respond that the First and Second Amendments are simply different. They state that violent felons may be stripped of Second Amendment rights, but they retain their First Amendment rights. But this answer ignores the fact that after Bruen, any difference between the First and Second Amendments must be rooted in history. While disarming violent felons may have that pedigree, Hawaii's law does not.
Furthermore, there are examples of people losing all their rights, both to free speech and to bear arms, based on a determination of physical danger. Violent felons have both their speech and firearm rights curtailed while in prison, for example, and probation conditions may limit their freedom of association with certain people, such as gang members. So that example, if anything, proves that Hawaii treats the Second Amendment as a second-class right.
The Amars' claim also makes a faulty assumption that the mere carrying of a firearm is dangerous, while speaking can never be. Speech that incites a riot or other violence certainly is. They state that "obviously, an activist sporting a campaign button while seated at a restaurant table – or while standing on a homeowner's front porch, for that matter – is utterly different from an activist toting a gun in these very same privately owned spaces."
But Hawaii only presumptively bans carrying by a concealed carry permit holder. These are people that the state has already determined to be peaceful, law-abiding citizens who should be able to carry a concealed firearm. There is nothing inherently dangerous about carrying a firearm, and as John Lott has demonstrated, concealed carry permit holders are extremely law-abiding, being convicted of violent crimes even less frequently than off-duty police officers. And it beggars belief to think that the violent criminals who are dangerous with firearms will be affected at all by Hawaii's law. They surely are not going to be asking property owners for permission before carrying guns anywhere, regardless of the rules. It is worth recalling the words of Cesare Beccaria, who so influenced the Founders, in Crimes and Punishments (1764):
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary [laws], which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty … and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the guilty alone ought to suffer? Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
Finally, while comparisons are being made between First and Second Amendment rights, it is worth recalling Chief Justice Robert's statement during the Heller oral argument: "I'm not sure why we have to articulate some very intricate standard. I mean, these standards that apply in the First Amendment just kind of developed over the years as sort of baggage that the First Amendment picked up. But I don't know why when we are starting afresh, we would try to articulate a whole standard that would apply in every case?"
Second, the Amars respond to the justices' questions about whether Hawaii flips the default rule for any other activity. They argue that surely the state could require affirmative consent to bring liquor, marijuana, or trash onto private property open to the public. They contend that it is irrelevant that the Constitution mentions firearms, because Hawaii's law is best understood as a property law. This answer ignores the fact that drinking, pot smoking, and throwing away trash are not fundamental rights, but keeping and bearing arms is.
Nor is it an answer to say that this is a property law. Hawaii singles out firearms for special treatment, criminalizing "arms-bearing conduct" protected by the Second Amendment. What is more, the claim that Hawaii is simply trying to empower property owners is belied by the fact that there are several types of private property where Hawaii bans the carrying of guns by permit holders altogether, regardless of the property owners' wishes, such as beaches, parks, medical facilities, and entertainment venues. Thus, if an owner of any location designed by Hawaii as a "government-mandated gun free zone" desired to permit firearms on his property, he would be denied the option to do so. So much for Hawaii's protection of a property's "right to choose" whether to allow firearms on his property.
Claiming that Hawaii's law is merely a property regulation also fails to answer the Chief Justice's hypothetical about politicians soliciting votes. It would be a clear violation of the First Amendment to presumptively prohibit candidates from walking up to someone's door to ask them for their vote. That law would not be saved because it incidentally implicates property law considerations. Similarly, the state cannot presumptively prohibit the exercise of the constitutional right to bear arms on private property. To make such a distinction between the First and Second Amendments would make the Second Amendment a second-class right.
Third, the Amars resist the conclusion that the 1865 Louisiana law that Hawaii and the Ninth Circuit rely on was part of the Black Codes. They assert that because the Reconstruction Congress permitted Louisiana back into the Union with that law on the books, it was clearly racially neutral. And while it is true that the text of the Louisiana law is race-neutral, it was invidiously discriminatory in its purpose and application. As the National African American Gun Association and the Firearms Policy Coalition point out in their respective amici briefs, the law, while formally race-neutral, sought to restrict the ability of freedmen from carrying firearms for self-defense and to hunt so that they would be forced to resort to sharecropping. Until the Civil War, persons could hunt, fish, and forage on private land so long as it was not enclosed or improved.
In 1865, Louisiana ended this regime because plantations relied on cheap, Black labor, to maintain their property in a post-slavery world. If freedmen could carry guns for self-protection, they could protect themselves from unlawful force. If freedmen could hunt or fish for their sustenance on undeveloped private property, that would eliminate any need for those people to work as sharecroppers for the former slave owners. While this law was race-neutral on its face, racial animus motivated it. Hence why a Reconstruction-era congressional report on The Condition of the South criticized the law for "depriving the great mass of the colored laborers of the State of the right to keep and bear arms, always zealously prized and guarded by his white employers."
It's also worth mentioning that the correct time period for assessing historical regulations that delimit the Second Amendment right is the Founding era around 1791, and not the post-Civil War Reconstruction era when the 1865 law was enacted.
Fourth and finally, the Amars respond to a question from Justice Kavanaugh about how many other states have similar laws. The Amars assume that Justice Kavanaugh will vote to strike down any gun law he deems to be a current outlier, and thus state that the Court should not look at how many states have this law now, but rather prognosticate as to how many states might have this law should the Supreme Court uphold it.
But whether a modern-day law is currently an outlier is irrelevant. What matters is that Hawaii's law fails Bruen's history and tradition test. Even if 30 more states implemented the exact same law, it would be just as unconstitutional. As the Chief Justice noted in Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue (2019), 30 states passing similar laws in the late 19th century does not provide a gloss on the meaning of the First Amendment. Surely then, a smattering of states passing laws in the 21st century similarly have no relevance to the original public meaning of the Second Amendment. The lawful authority of states to be laboratories of democracy stops where the Bill of Rights starts.
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I get. You think concealed carry is a constitutional right. I don't. But that is not too relevant.
Also not relevant to your post. What about open carry and DHS saying it is not ok when exercising your first amendment rights? A bit off topic. But I hope it is addressed.
Katall, who said it, and when and where did the DHS say that it is not ok to Open Carry when exercising one's First Amendment rights?
He's referring to Pretti, the idiot who thought it wise to come armed to a confrontation with police, then interfere when police tried to deal with a protester, and finally violently resist arrest.
No. I am referring to the DHS secretary saying: 'don’t know of any peaceful protester that shows up with a gun and ammunition rather than a sign,' which implies that toting a gun shows malice.
The black codes and the current DHS illustrate the need for codifying the right to keep and bear arms, and the privileges or immunities of citizens.
It's perfectly find to Open Carry when exercising one's First Amendment rights
It's perfectly suicidal to attack law enforcement officers while carrying
How retarded does one have to be to not grasp the difference?
Point to the part of the video where he attacks officers and violently resists arrest.
Videos of Alex Pretti shooting by federal agents in Minneapolis contradict Trump official claims [I think that's a fair statement.]
Pretti was part of a group obstructing the road in order to interfere with ICE. Note, interfering with law enforcement is illegal. As this was an organized effort to interfere with law enforcement, it is a criminal conspiracy. (A criminal conspiracy lead by state officials, not incidentally.)
That said, watching the video, while it's not clear whether he had drawn the gun before it was taken away, it IS clear that it had been taken away before he was shot. So barring some REALLY regrettable confusion, I can't see the shot being legal.
He was standing in the middle of the road waving cars to go by, and taking pictures. There is no active ICE action happening anywhere near him.
How is this "interfering with ICE" in any meaning ful way? And is it a criminal conspiracy if tens of thousands of people join together to resist out of control federal agents terrorizing their neibhorhoods by blowing whistles and taking videos?
'potentially annoying' is about the level that counts as interference to the usual suspects these days.
Do you think open carry is a constitutional right? or do you not think any carry is?
MarkJawz - I am the first, and only, person to file a Federal lawsuit seeking to enjoin California's bans on openly carrying loaded and unloaded rifles, shotguns, and handguns. I am also the first person to file a lawsuit challenging the restrictions and requirements for Open Carry licenses, and given that Mark Baird dropped his challenge to the licensing laws, I am also the only one.
Concealed carry is not a right protected by the Second Amendment unless and until SCOTUS says it is. If SCOTUS does say so, then, as a matter of law, concealed carry will become a Second Amendment right, just as same-sex marriage became a Fourteenth Amendment right, because at least five justices want it to be a right.
"Concealed carry is not a right protected by the Second Amendment unless and until SCOTUS says it is. If SCOTUS does say so,...."
Show me where in the 2nd Amendment that is makes a distinction between open and concealed carry. My view is that both are covered by "bear arms." Whether to protect an arm from foul weather, or to exercise discretion and avoid tempting an arms theif, or any other reason does not matter when 'concealing' an arm.
And it is not SCOTUS' place to create rights, only to interpret laws and the constituion.
The right of the people to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed
Which of those words are unclear to you?
"I get. You think concealed carry is a constitutional right. I don't. But that is not too relevant."
No, carry is the constitutional right. Concealed is just the only manner Hawaii deigns to permit it to be exercised. Exercised in theory, anyway...
The Hawaii law applies to those with an Open Carry license just as forcefully as it does to those with a concealed carry permit; it is the same statute that governs both types of licenses. I asked Alan Beck, the attorney for Wolford, why he specified "concealed" in his question presented. He said it was because his clients don't have Open Carry licenses.
But you wouldn't know that by reading this article. But we shouldn't expect much from somebody who cites John Lott Jr. as an authority. A decade ago, John Lott Jr. said that people who openly carry firearms are more likely to be targeted than people who carry concealed firearms. I asked him to publish his raw data and methodology so that we could see if he was including uniformed police officers and soldiers. I'm still waiting.
John Lott Jr. has a long history of making unsubstantiated claims, and Stephen Halbrook is a professional liar (lawyer).
Is there any concept less useful for legal analysis than whining about how other people are ranking the amendments? How are you going to meaningfully compare speech rights and arms bearing rights so as to accord both "first class rights" status? Is there a points system? It belongs in a letter to the editor, not oral arguments. I think the hawaii law is silly, but this and the pseudo-woke hysterics over referencing the black codes are so offputting. Try to be a serious lawyer.
Uhhh .... he's responding to other lawyers and legal analysts. Who exactly do you think is less serious, the Hawaiian lawyers who thought up such nonsense, or those who responded to it?
Actually, it's perfectly valid to complain when people start ranking the amendments, because they in theory all exist at exactly the same rank: Highest law of the land.
When you start ranking them it amounts to an open admission you mean to violate some of them.
Any comments on the various Trump administration statements to the effect that people should not carry guns to protests and if they do they can expect to be shot?
No. I don't really care what Trump says or doesn't say.
If "protests" refers to illegal activity such as getting in the way of law enforcement (and it does in this context), then protestors should not be carrying guns to protests, because even supporters of the Second Amendment don't tell people to carry guns when committing crimes.
So you agree with Noem, Patel, etc.’s statements that law-abiding cotizens do not carry guns to protests, and people who do are criminals who can expect to be shot. And you agree the NRA is full of shit for objecting to these statements.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2026/01/25/alex-pretti-minneapolis-shooting-gun-rights-border-patrol-ice/88348880007/
No, I think carrying guns to protests and then attacking law enforcement drastically increases the likelihood you get shot.
Point to where on the video Pretti attacks law enforcement.
"Helping" that woman constitutes an attack on the people trying to lawfully arrest her.
An agent shoved her till she fell. Pretti was trying to help her up when he gets peppersprayed in the face.
Your definition of "attack" is incompatible with a free society.
Funny libertarians almost had people convinced they were sincere and principled in their defense of liberty.
MAGA folks are no libertarians.
I just love all the 'OMG if you say that some idiot charging into armed federal agents who are already in the middle of a fight, with a gun of your own, is a dangerous thing to do you don't support the 2nd Amendment!!!' posts, I'm seeing across the internet. Are Dems really this dumb or just pretending?
You love Noem’s statement that “I never saw a peaceful carrying a gun to a protest. Protesters carry signs, not guns.”
And just because people OMG of course can’t carry guns to protests doesn’t mean you don’t support the 2nd Amendment.
Your words. You said it. You said yourself that the NRA, who sharply disagreed with Noem. Is “this dumb or just pretending.”
Point to where Pretti "charges into" agents in "the middle of a fight".
Are you always this dishonest?
Pretti was killed because he attacked a law enforcement officer in the legal performance of his (the law enforcement officer's) duties.
The fact that he had a gun on him while carrying out this criminal assault made it more likely that he'd be killed.
Which is no loss.
Ashli Babbitt died for much less. Did you idiots really think that precedent wouldn't come back to bite you?
So you agree with the administration that because Pretti, it’s Ok to prohibit carrying guns to progests generally, and you also agree the NRA is full of shit - “dishonest” is your term - for objecting to it and calling for a full investigation into the Pretti shooting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cnvg812n01no.amp
I generally don't give a shit what Trump says, about anything.
To the extent that anyone in the Trump Admin said "it is a bad idea to engage your right to carry while also engaging your right to peacefully petition the gov't for redress of grievances", that person is an idiot.
To the extent that someone in the Trump Admin said "it's a bad idea to carry a gun when you're planning on assaulting law enforcement officers in the legal performance of their duties" (and "assaulting law enforcement officers in the legal performance of their duties" is generally what happens at these anti-ICE protests), that someone is correct.
Do I also need to explain to you that 1 + 1 != 3?
What's your evidence Pretti was "planning on assaulting law enforcement officers"?
I just want to focus on your statement about the NRA being dishonest as you said it was. People who have consistent principles are now dishonest. You make Orwell proud.
This comment of your appears to be directed at me. As I haven't said anything about the NRA in months, if not years, and certainly haven't said anything about them here, I have no idea what you're writing about
Nope. Doesn’t fly. You replied to a comment about what Trump administration officials said with an equivalent of “I hate those idiots” who oppose the Trump Administration.
When the Trump Administration does something really stupid, and you blindly attack people who object, you are responsible for having defended the stupidity. You are responsible for keeping your eyes open, and for what you could see if you did, whether you choose to do so or not. And we both know you didn’t here.
"statements to the effect" means that the Trump administration never said that, it exists only in your mind, in your biased interpetation of how you want to protray their position.
All this BS is because 2A was never meant to be an individual right. It is a right to form an join an armed state militia.
This bullshit again?
This bullshit today, this bullshit tomorrow, this bullshit forever!
Hi lying dirtbag
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
1: Every single "right of the people" is an individual right
2: The "militia" was every single able bodied adult male
3: "well regulated", meant that they trained. So, I'm glad we all agree that the Constitution bans NYC from banning people from carrying rifles around and drilling with them in central park
4: The militia carries military weapons. So we're all in agreement that the 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting, it's about the right to keep and bear, in public, military weapons. you know, like fully automatic assault rifles
Right now I am focused on the fact that the Trump Administration has just shat on and flushed down the toilet a principle it told its base it considered part of its core values the minute it found it inconvenient. Whether that principle was worthwhile or not in the abstract seems beside the point. To discuss principles, you first have to have some to discuss.
I know they focus on "history and tradition," which is often tied to 1791. Still, by the time of the 14A, there is wide evidence that people "meant" it among other things to protect individuals to have RKBA for purposes of self-defense.
Regardless, there is wide evidence that people thought there was a common law right to possess weapons for self-defense outside of the 2A issues. What that meant in public places is up for debate.
I'm not originalist but since you brought up what was "meant."
They argue that surely the state could require affirmative consent to bring liquor, marijuana, or trash onto private property open to the public
Really? The State can pass a law saying I'm not allowed to bear a hip flask when I walk around in public? Or to have any trash in my pocket?
Do you have to be stupid to be a lefty, or does it just make it so much easier?
> felons keep their 1A rights.
Well, yes, but there a lot of history and tradition of putting murderers, rapists, pirates, and traitors to death, whereupon they lost all their rights. From a merciful reduction in capital offenses, evolving views on the death penalty, and an increase to codified felonies ad absurdum, felons by society’s grace retain some rights including 1A, though there are still exceptions even to this.
And if you made permanent loss of the right to firearms, speech or other rights a part of the person's individualized sentence rather than a post hoc rule, you'd be on solid ground to restrict those rights from felons. As is, your argument is very weak.
"but there a lot of history and tradition of putting murderers, rapists, pirates, and traitors to death, whereupon they lost all their rights."
Sure, but that history was contemporaneous with those murders, rapists, blah blah blah, who didn't get put to death being restored their rights when their sentences were over.
My basic argument here is that I don't really care much about the felons themselves, (At least the ones guilty of felony felonies; Felony inflation is something the Court should react to.) but that depriving felons who are out on the street this right really does diddly squat for public safety, while requiring a whole system to inconvenience them, that also can be and IS leveraged to inconvenience non-felons in their exercise of this right.
And that I very much care about.
Man, you're finding more ways for rights to be contingent all the time!
Lovely to see you come around to understanding how rights jurisprudence actually works.
Be nice if it was more than identifying classes of people you want to exclude, but baby steps.
Here's a comment from Greg Bovino on the Saturday killing by CBP agent/s of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis. "...in an interview with CNN’s “State of the Union” on Sunday, Bovino said a person’s Second Amendment rights “don’t count when you riot and assault, delay, obstruct and impede law enforcement officers.” That's odd, because we've been told over and over again that we have the 2A precisely so that the armed citizenry can resist tyranny. So here we have a citizen, who may not have been armed with anything except a phone, getting shot to death while resisting what he saw as tyrannical law enforcement. If he had in fact been lawfully armed, wouldn't that make the point even more clearly? Or do the 2A scholars prefer to see the Rittenhouse case as the defining demonstration of 2A freedom during episodes of civil unrest?
Are you saying Bovino should have praised the man for attacking ICE and doubly so because he was armed while doing it?
LOL you guys are totally nuts. WTF are we even talking about anymore?
Where on the video does Pretti "attack" ICE?
The part where he shoves an ICE agent
If you haven't seen it, you need to get out of your left wing bubble
Here's an example: https://x.com/Oilfield_Rando/status/2015776924065263880
Let me explain to you something about resisting tyranny: If you strike at the King you must kill him.
The 2nd amendment protects the right to be ABLE TO resist tyranny. Constitutionalizing an actual right to resist tyranny itself would be fatuous, because no government that it could properly be exercised against would respect it.
But if you protect a right to the means, you'll have the capacity already when the occasion arises, even though a government that you could properly overthrow would never let you obtain it if you hadn't already had it.
It's like fire extinguishers: You have to obtain them before your house catches fire, because once it has caught fire, it's too late to go get one.
It's like fire extinguishers in another way, too: If somebody demands you get rid of your fire extinguisher, you've identified an arsonist...
Does the 2A have a 'Brett figures this guy was up to no good' clause?
No, it has a "if your insurrection fails, you're the bad guy" clause.
See: Whiskey Rebellion, US Civil War 1.0
Exactly: "Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason? For if it prosper none dare call it treason."
You and Dr. Ed, Civil War bros for life.
I don't want a civil war, if this country has another civil war it's going to be a mess for decades afterwards. Civil wars are for when the alternative is actually WORSE than a civil war.
I'm simply pointing out that you're mistaken to analyze revolution by legal standards, because revolutions if successful change legal standards. So the loser in a revolution is always 'in the wrong' because the winner decides what was 'wrong'.
Which is the point of Harington's poem.
Do you think in slogans, rather than actually reasoning?
I believe he was up to no good, because,
1. He was violating state law by engaging in concealed carry without having his carry permit or other ID on him at the time. (A state law I think is unconstitutional, mind you, but surely that wouldn't factor into your reasoning.) How often do YOU leave the house without any ID on you?
2. He was violating federal law by interfering with a law enforcement operation. Actively part of an organized conspiracy to interfere with federal law enforcement! Organized through Signal, with state officeholders holding key positions.
You'll notice what I have NOT asserted: That it was legal to shoot him. Maybe some day you'll understand that people aren't the stereotypes you assign them to, and start responding to the people who are actually conversing with you.
The state of Minnesota is very close, if they haven't already, to giving Trump a perfectly valid excuse to invoke the Insurrection act. They're so self-righteous in their opposition to federal immigration law that they're digging their own graves, legally speaking.
My dude, you haven't said shit about the shooting being horrific. Illegal?! Oh my where's the fainting couch.
Here you claim he's up to no good by citing interference that didn't happen and discarding your usual 2A rhetoric.
Well, that was easy.
The state of Minnesota is very close, if they haven't already, to giving Trump a perfectly valid excuse to invoke the Insurrection act
ICE broke the law, but the left is to blame.
We're being tested, and you're failing.
Though really, you failed a while ago.
Wank on about Civil War 2, you're hiding your lust about as well as Ed is these days.
No, ICE has NOT broke the law
The LEFT is breaking the law every time they do ANYTHING to slow down ICE grabbing and deporting illegals.
We had an election on that, Trump won.
The laws he's enforcing are Constitutional, and anyone and everyone trying to stop that enforcement is an enemy of democracy (Trump won) and the rule of law.
Don't want to die? Then get the fuck out of the way.
We couldn't force the Biden Admin to enforce immigration law, and you can't force Trump to stop
No. I mean, ICE ARE enforcing the law, but sometimes they're doing so in an illegal manner. ICE was rapidly expanded, a lot of their people are poorly trained, and they're under a lot of stress in places like Minnesota, where they're subject to continual doxing and harassment.
So it's not shocking that they're not being totally professional 100% of the time, but it's still the case.
You'll notice that in 99% of the country you're not seeing stories like this. That's because in 99% of the country, local law enforcement are cooperating, and they're not facing this sort of continual harassment. That's not really to excuse it, but if Minnesota's government weren't egging on the anti-ICE forces, where they're not actually in control of them, you wouldn't be seeing this.
So every time workers in a city run by a democratic mayor fix a road, they’re committing a crime? Fixing a road results in traffic jams and detours. Slows ICE down. Every time a lawyer makes a filing in court?
I hate to say it, but what you’ve stated represents the law of whatever fascist country you came from, not the United States. Here in the United States, we simply accept that individual rights means that government often can’t do what it wants as fast as it wants to. Here in the United States, protesting the government is quite legal, not withstanding that it slows it down. Here in the United States, government officials have to be somewhat patient in dealing with citizens.
They can’t just shrill hysterically or simply throw fits and shoot people whenever they can’t get what they want when they want it.
Totally unlike your country, wherever that is.
If you can't tell the difference between roadwork to repair a road, and deliberately interfering with law enforcement, I'm sure I won't be able to clarify it for you.
I believe the Minnesota government has gotten themselves into some deep doo doo with that Signal chat setup coordinating these activities. They've crossed way over the line, legally.
"That's odd, because we've been told over and over again that we have the 2A precisely so that the armed citizenry can resist tyranny."
Why yes, we DO have the 2nd Amendment so that Americans can hold a successful insurrection against an oppressive gov't.
1: I thought you Dems were against "insurrection"?
2: When that insurrection happens, people will get killed, and it's the job of the gov't to kill the insurrectionists. So Bovino is just doing his job here
3: If you want another civil war, you can have one. it will be fun killing all the leftists
In short: your post is insanely stupid. The only question is it that way because you are insanely stupid, or because you're entirely dishonest?
So you admit the 2nd Amendment only applies to Democrats, but it’s fine for Repunlicans to take your guns away.
There was no insurrection here. In this country public protest is complerely lawful, and attempting to call it an insurrection only shows how very far from American can values you have strayed.
At an ordinary civil protest, a nurse tried to help a woman who had fallen down and got shot for his troubles. That’s your “insurrection.”
I'm curious, have you EVER had a carry permit?
One meme going around: I took 7 hours of carry class that taught me not to do what he did
And yeah, that pretty much perfectly describes my first carry class (have to renew every 5 years, my first one I paid more to get a good instructor)
Nope, it's not ok for ANYONE to take my guns away.
But if I engage in an actual insurrection, I expect the gov't to try to kill me for doing so. Because I'm not a moron
People showing up to attempt to block the Federal gov't from enforcing US immigration law is an insurrection. It's an assault on democracy (Trump won the election running on mass deportation) and the rule of law.
That you don't like those laws is irrelevant. They are Constitutional, they are on the books, Trump gets to enforce them
I'm not nearly as muscular a 2A defender as a lot of people on here, but I seem to be the last man standing...everyone else has mysteriously found somewhere else to be.
So I will say that a 2A that only applies if you don't annoy the government isn't much of a right at all.
Of course, you seem to be defending the idea that if you do 'obstruct', it's open season. Which means you don't think much of rights in general.
"At an ordinary civil protest"
Lie. An ordinary civil protest does not attempt to imped ICE from deporting people
"a nurse tried to help a woman who had fallen down and got shot for his troubles"
Lie. He shoved a cop who was in the lawful performance of his duties. Then he fought the cops. Then he reached for his holster and pulled something from it (his gun was out of the holster at that point, but there's NO reason to believe that all the cops he was fighting with knew that)
Then he got shot and died.
Good
If you want to live, don't pick fights with cops
If you think the cops have done wrong, record their actions and sue them later
Hi. My name is GregJ. I go on libertarian blogs to fight for the right of the govt to shoot people in the street. I then praise the govt killing. "If you want to live, don't pick fights with cops." Should go on GregJ's headstone. The most libertarian motto there ever could be.
WHY WONT PEOPLE JUST LET THE ARMED GOVT AGENTS DO WHAT THEY WANT?? He screamed into the night. Wouldn't it be so much easier to just... I don't know... sit back and just take it? You could try recording and suing them later, or something??
/fin/
Rather pathetic display GregJ. Seriously.
There is an immediate matter that raises 2A concerns.
ReaderY flags it as do others.
Prof. Orin Kerr referenced a 4A issue, including possible remedies. Steve Vladeck said more about it in his Substack today.
But what about the—I'll say it—pet issues of people like Stephen Halbrook? This blog, which generously allows comments unlike many others, can post what it wants.
Still. It's curious to me (it's not, really) that certain contributors say so little about issues that touch upon their concerns as they occur, connected to acts of this administration. That includes both the First and Second Amendment.
The Independent Institute. Sure it is.