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Second Amendment Roundup: Four Points on the Wolford Argument
Comments by Akhil and Vikram Amar in Scotusblog.com are off base.
In a recent article in Scotusblog.com, Akhil and Vikram Amar attempt to answer four concerns raised in the Justices' questioning in oral argument in Wolford v. Lopez. However, at each turn in their defense of the Hawaii law, their answers fall flat.
First, the Amars address the concern that Hawaii treats the Second Amendment as a second-class right. The Justices probed Neal Katyal's position, questioning whether the government could presumptively ban speech on private property without the property owner's express approval. The Amars respond that the First and Second Amendments are simply different. They state that violent felons may be stripped of Second Amendment rights, but they retain their First Amendment rights. But this answer ignores the fact that after Bruen, any difference between the First and Second Amendments must be rooted in history. While disarming violent felons may have that pedigree, Hawaii's law does not.
Furthermore, there are examples of people losing all their rights, both to free speech and to bear arms, based on a determination of physical danger. Violent felons have both their speech and firearm rights curtailed while in prison, for example, and probation conditions may limit their freedom of association with certain people, such as gang members. So that example, if anything, proves that Hawaii treats the Second Amendment as a second-class right.
The Amars' claim also makes a faulty assumption that the mere carrying of a firearm is dangerous, while speaking can never be. Speech that incites a riot or other violence certainly is. They state that "obviously, an activist sporting a campaign button while seated at a restaurant table – or while standing on a homeowner's front porch, for that matter – is utterly different from an activist toting a gun in these very same privately owned spaces."
But Hawaii only presumptively bans carrying by a concealed carry permit holder. These are people that the state has already determined to be peaceful, law-abiding citizens who should be able to carry a concealed firearm. There is nothing inherently dangerous about carrying a firearm, and as John Lott has demonstrated, concealed carry permit holders are extremely law-abiding, being convicted of violent crimes even less frequently than off-duty police officers. And it beggars belief to think that the violent criminals who are dangerous with firearms will be affected at all by Hawaii's law. They surely are not going to be asking property owners for permission before carrying guns anywhere, regardless of the rules. It is worth recalling the words of Cesare Beccaria, who so influenced the Founders, in Crimes and Punishments (1764):
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary [laws], which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty … and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the guilty alone ought to suffer? Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.
Finally, while comparisons are being made between First and Second Amendment rights, it is worth recalling Chief Justice Robert's statement during the Heller oral argument: "I'm not sure why we have to articulate some very intricate standard. I mean, these standards that apply in the First Amendment just kind of developed over the years as sort of baggage that the First Amendment picked up. But I don't know why when we are starting afresh, we would try to articulate a whole standard that would apply in every case?"
Second, the Amars respond to the justices' questions about whether Hawaii flips the default rule for any other activity. They argue that surely the state could require affirmative consent to bring liquor, marijuana, or trash onto private property open to the public. They contend that it is irrelevant that the Constitution mentions firearms, because Hawaii's law is best understood as a property law. This answer ignores the fact that drinking, pot smoking, and throwing away trash are not fundamental rights, but keeping and bearing arms is.
Nor is it an answer to say that this is a property law. Hawaii singles out firearms for special treatment, criminalizing "arms-bearing conduct" protected by the Second Amendment. What is more, the claim that Hawaii is simply trying to empower property owners is belied by the fact that there are several types of private property where Hawaii bans the carrying of guns by permit holders altogether, regardless of the property owners' wishes, such as beaches, parks, medical facilities, and entertainment venues. Thus, if an owner of any location designed by Hawaii as a "government-mandated gun free zone" desired to permit firearms on his property, he would be denied the option to do so. So much for Hawaii's protection of a property's "right to choose" whether to allow firearms on his property.
Claiming that Hawaii's law is merely a property regulation also fails to answer the Chief Justice's hypothetical about politicians soliciting votes. It would be a clear violation of the First Amendment to presumptively prohibit candidates from walking up to someone's door to ask them for their vote. That law would not be saved because it incidentally implicates property law considerations. Similarly, the state cannot presumptively prohibit the exercise of the constitutional right to bear arms on private property. To make such a distinction between the First and Second Amendments would make the Second Amendment a second-class right.
Third, the Amars resist the conclusion that the 1865 Louisiana law that Hawaii and the Ninth Circuit rely on was part of the Black Codes. They assert that because the Reconstruction Congress permitted Louisiana back into the Union with that law on the books, it was clearly racially neutral. And while it is true that the text of the Louisiana law is race-neutral, it was invidiously discriminatory in its purpose and application. As the National African American Gun Association and the Firearms Policy Coalition point out in their respective amici briefs, the law, while formally race-neutral, sought to restrict the ability of freedmen from carrying firearms for self-defense and to hunt so that they would be forced to resort to sharecropping. Until the Civil War, persons could hunt, fish, and forage on private land so long as it was not enclosed or improved.
In 1865, Louisiana ended this regime because plantations relied on cheap, Black labor, to maintain their property in a post-slavery world. If freedmen could carry guns for self-protection, they could protect themselves from unlawful force. If freedmen could hunt or fish for their sustenance on undeveloped private property, that would eliminate any need for those people to work as sharecroppers for the former slave owners. While this law was race-neutral on its face, racial animus motivated it. Hence why a Reconstruction-era congressional report on The Condition of the South criticized the law for "depriving the great mass of the colored laborers of the State of the right to keep and bear arms, always zealously prized and guarded by his white employers."
It's also worth mentioning that the correct time period for assessing historical regulations that delimit the Second Amendment right is the Founding era around 1791, and not the post-Civil War Reconstruction era when the 1865 law was enacted.
Fourth and finally, the Amars respond to a question from Justice Kavanaugh about how many other states have similar laws. The Amars assume that Justice Kavanaugh will vote to strike down any gun law he deems to be a current outlier, and thus state that the Court should not look at how many states have this law now, but rather prognosticate as to how many states might have this law should the Supreme Court uphold it.
But whether a modern-day law is currently an outlier is irrelevant. What matters is that Hawaii's law fails Bruen's history and tradition test. Even if 30 more states implemented the exact same law, it would be just as unconstitutional. As the Chief Justice noted in Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue (2019), 30 states passing similar laws in the late 19th century does not provide a gloss on the meaning of the First Amendment. Surely then, a smattering of states passing laws in the 21st century similarly have no relevance to the original public meaning of the Second Amendment. The lawful authority of states to be laboratories of democracy stops where the Bill of Rights starts.
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I get. You think concealed carry is a constitutional right. I don't. But that is not too relevant.
Also not relevant to your post. What about open carry and DHS saying it is not ok when exercising your first amendment rights? A bit off topic. But I hope it is addressed.
Katall, who said it, and when and where did the DHS say that it is not ok to Open Carry when exercising one's First Amendment rights?
He's referring to Pretti, the idiot who thought it wise to come armed to a confrontation with police, then interfere when police tried to deal with a protester, and finally violently resist arrest.
It's perfectly find to Open Carry when exercising one's First Amendment rights
It's perfectly suicidal to attack law enforcement officers while carrying
How retarded does one have to be to not grasp the difference?
Do you think open carry is a constitutional right? or do you not think any carry is?
MarkJawz - I am the first, and only, person to file a Federal lawsuit seeking to enjoin California's bans on openly carrying loaded and unloaded rifles, shotguns, and handguns. I am also the first person to file a lawsuit challenging the restrictions and requirements for Open Carry licenses, and given that Mark Baird dropped his challenge to the licensing laws, I am also the only one.
Concealed carry is not a right protected by the Second Amendment unless and until SCOTUS says it is. If SCOTUS does say so, then, as a matter of law, concealed carry will become a Second Amendment right, just as same-sex marriage became a Fourteenth Amendment right, because at least five justices want it to be a right.
The right of the people to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed
Which of those words are unclear to you?
The Hawaii law applies to those with an Open Carry license just as forcefully as it does to those with a concealed carry permit; it is the same statute that governs both types of licenses. I asked Alan Beck, the attorney for Wolford, why he specified "concealed" in his question presented. He said it was because his clients don't have Open Carry licenses.
But you wouldn't know that by reading this article. But we shouldn't expect much from somebody who cites John Lott Jr. as an authority. A decade ago, John Lott Jr. said that people who openly carry firearms are more likely to be targeted than people who carry concealed firearms. I asked him to publish his raw data and methodology so that we could see if he was including uniformed police officers and soldiers. I'm still waiting.
John Lott Jr. has a long history of making unsubstantiated claims, and Stephen Halbrook is a professional liar (lawyer).
Is there any concept less useful for legal analysis than whining about how other people are ranking the amendments? How are you going to meaningfully compare speech rights and arms bearing rights so as to accord both "first class rights" status? Is there a points system? It belongs in a letter to the editor, not oral arguments. I think the hawaii law is silly, but this and the pseudo-woke hysterics over referencing the black codes are so offputting. Try to be a serious lawyer.
Uhhh .... he's responding to other lawyers and legal analysts. Who exactly do you think is less serious, the Hawaiian lawyers who thought up such nonsense, or those who responded to it?
Any comments on the various Trump administration statements to the effect that people should not carry guns to protests and if they do they can expect to be shot?
No. I don't really care what Trump says or doesn't say.
If "protests" refers to illegal activity such as getting in the way of law enforcement (and it does in this context), then protestors should not be carrying guns to protests, because even supporters of the Second Amendment don't tell people to carry guns when committing crimes.
I just love all the 'OMG if you say that some idiot charging into armed federal agents who are already in the middle of a fight, with a gun of your own, is a dangerous thing to do you don't support the 2nd Amendment!!!' posts, I'm seeing across the internet. Are Dems really this dumb or just pretending?
Are you always this dishonest?
Pretti was killed because he attacked a law enforcement officer in the legal performance of his (the law enforcement officer's) duties.
The fact that he had a gun on him while carrying out this criminal assault made it more likely that he'd be killed.
Which is no loss.
Ashli Babbitt died for much less. Did you idiots really think that precedent wouldn't come back to bite you?
All this BS is because 2A was never meant to be an individual right. It is a right to form an join an armed state militia.
This bullshit again?
Hi lying dirtbag
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
1: Every single "right of the people" is an individual right
2: The "militia" was every single able bodied adult male
3: "well regulated", meant that they trained. So, I'm glad we all agree that the Constitution bans NYC from banning people from carrying rifles around and drilling with them in central park
4: The militia carries military weapons. So we're all in agreement that the 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting, it's about the right to keep and bear, in public, military weapons. you know, like fully automatic assault rifles
They argue that surely the state could require affirmative consent to bring liquor, marijuana, or trash onto private property open to the public
Really? The State can pass a law saying I'm not allowed to bear a hip flask when I walk around in public? Or to have any trash in my pocket?
Do you have to be stupid to be a lefty, or does it just make it so much easier?
> felons keep their 1A rights.
Well, yes, but there a lot of history and tradition of putting murderers, rapists, pirates, and traitors to death, whereupon they lost all their rights. From a merciful reduction in capital offenses, evolving views on the death penalty, and an increase to codified felonies ad absurdum, felons by society’s grace retain some rights including 1A, though there are still exceptions even to this.
Here's a comment from Greg Bovino on the Saturday killing by CBP agent/s of Alex Pretti in Minneapolis. "...in an interview with CNN’s “State of the Union” on Sunday, Bovino said a person’s Second Amendment rights “don’t count when you riot and assault, delay, obstruct and impede law enforcement officers.” That's odd, because we've been told over and over again that we have the 2A precisely so that the armed citizenry can resist tyranny. So here we have a citizen, who may not have been armed with anything except a phone, getting shot to death while resisting what he saw as tyrannical law enforcement. If he had in fact been lawfully armed, wouldn't that make the point even more clearly? Or do the 2A scholars prefer to see the Rittenhouse case as the defining demonstration of 2A freedom during episodes of civil unrest?