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The Perversity of Citing The Black Codes To Defend Gun-Control Laws
Neal Katyal and Justice Jackson were placed in the uncomfortable spot of having to explain why racist legislation to disarm the freedman was actually relevant.
One of the most bizarre aspects of modern Second Amendment litigation is how supporters of gun control are forced to favorably cite Jim Crow laws. In all other contexts, these sort of anti-canonical statutes would be untouchable. Yet, when it comes to guns, all the usual rules go out the window. In Wolford v. Lopez, one of the leading authorities for Hawaii's law is an 1865 Louisiana statute. Neal Katyal described it as a "dead ringer" for the Hawaii statute.
During the oral argument, Justice Gorsuch was incredulous that Hawaii was relying on this shameful precedent. He asked Wolford's counsel if it was appropriate to rely on such a law to inform the nation's traditions.
JUSTICE GORSUCH: Your friends on the other side in the Ninth Circuit relied on two statutes in particular. One was the 1771 New Jersey law that you were just discussing with Justice Kagan. But the other one that was left unmentioned was an 1865 Louisiana statute that was adopted immediately after the Civil War as part of an effort, it appears, to disarm black people. A Reconstruction governor later explained that this law, of course, was aimed at the freedmen. Do you think the black codes, as they're called, should inform this Court's decision-making when trying to discern what is this nation's traditions?
MR. BECK: I do not, Your Honor.
JUSTICE GORSUCH: Well, your friend on the other side says it should and that the 1865 statute is a "dead ringer" for this statute.
MR. BECK: The 1865 law was expressly passed to discriminate against African Americans that were newly freed slaves. And I just don't see how a law like that can be used to be analogized to a modern-day law, this modern-day law, Your Honor.
Gorsuch had a similar question for Sarah Harris, the Principal Deputy SG:
JUSTICE GORSUCH: And then, lastly, there's been some discussion about the black codes, and maybe they should be relevant and maybe we really should consider them as significant here. In fact, they're a dead ringer. Thoughts?
MS. HARRIS: It is 2026 and it is somewhat astonishing that black codes, which are unconstitutional, are being offered as evidence of what our tradition of constitutionally permissible firearm regulation looks like. Those laws are dead ringers only in the sense that this law too is an unconstitutional pretext. The black codes were offered, as you mentioned, by states before their readmission to the union. It is not an indictment of the Bruen framework to say that unconstitutional laws do not count in illuminating a valid tradition.
Yet, Justice Jackson tried at great length to explain why the Black Code statute was relevant. First, Jackson tried to suggest that disregarding the Black codes undermines the Bruen test, which looks at all traditions.
JUSTICE JACKSON: Let me just ask you about the black codes. Justice Gorsuch raised it. And I guess what I'm wondering --your answer to him was they can't be and shouldn't be used. And I guess I'm wondering whether that doesn't signal a problem with the Bruen test, that to the extent that we have a test that relates to historical regulation, but all of the history of regulation is not taken into account, I --I think there might be something wrong with the test. So can you speak to that?
MR. BECK: There's nothing wrong with the Bruen test, Your Honor. Just on a fundamental level, the black codes can't be used because they dealt to discriminate against a small -
Second, Jackson said that Beck's approach would ignore the lived experience of those who were subject to Black Codes.
JUSTICE JACKSON: To --to people other than the people in this small segment that you're talking about, who were a part of society, but I guess you're saying that for the purpose of this test, we're not going to consider what happened to them?
MR. BECK: No. What I'm saying is that the --the black codes dealt with a very --it wasn't a law of general applicability. It was designed to discriminate against --it was a racist law designed to iscriminate against African Americans, whereas, here, the law at issue here is a law that applies to everyone. We can't use a racist, discriminatory law to justify a modern-day law that applies to the general public, Your Honor.
That was not at all Beck's point. A blatantly unconstitutional law cannot form part of the tradition for purposes of Bruen.
Jackson offered similar questions for Harris:
JUSTICE JACKSON: So I guess I really don't understand your response to Justice Gorsuch on the black codes. I mean I thought the black codes were being offered here under the Bruen test to determine the constitutionality of this regulation. And it's because we have a test that asks us to look at the history and tradition. The fact that the black codes were at some later point determined themselves to be unconstitutional doesn't seem to me to be relevant to the assessment that Bruen is asking us to make. So can you say more about that?
Harris offered a different response. She countered that the black codes were unconstitutional ab initio.
MS. HARRIS: Absolutely. Black codes were unconstitutional from the moment of their inception because they are pretextual laws that are designed to ensure that newly freed slaves are returned to a condition of sharecropping -
Justice Jackson did not like that response. Jackson argued that the laws were not halted by the courts, so they were not unconstitutional.
JUSTICE JACKSON: Okay. Let me stop you there. They were not deemed unconstitutional at the time that they were enacted. They were part of the history and tradition of the country. And when we have a test now that's asking us to look at what people were doing back then, I don't understand why they should be excluded.
MS. HARRIS: Because they are outliers. They are by definition unconstitutional. They have been -
JUSTICE JACKSON: That was later.
MS. HARRIS: --found unconstitutional.
JUSTICE JACKSON: Afterwards, not at the time. And if the test says what's happening at the time tells us what's constitutional for this purpose, why aren't they in?
MS. HARRIS: Respectfully, a law is always unconstitutional when it --from its inception --it's --when it's -
This is a fascinating exchange. Jackson's conception of constitutionality turns on whether the courts declared the codes unconstitutional. The SG's office counters that the law was unconstitutional from the moment it was signed into law, even if no court had said so. I am a departmentalist, and favor the executive's answer. Jackson, a judicial supremacist, does not. I wonder how Jackson would view Lincoln's treatment of the Dred Scott decision.
Justice Gorsuch returned to the theme during an extended colloquy with Neal Katyal, counsel for Hawaii. He asked how the black codes should inform the Court's analysis:
JUSTICE GORSUCH: The other question I want to ask you is the black codes. I --I struggle to see what relevance laws that are outliers --and in Bruen, we're not supposed to consider outliers. They're put aside under our test. We're looking for the mainstream and a significant tradition. And you rely very heavily on an 1865 black code law in Louisiana. You say it's a dead ringer and a reason alone to affirm the judgment. And I really --I --I really want to understand how that could be. I want to understand how you think black codes should inform this Court's decision-making. It's quite an astonishing claim to me.
Katyal tried to explain that the black codes, as a general matter, were bad, but this particular statute was not racist legislation. After all, Katyal explained, Congress admitted Louisiana to the Union with this law on the books.
MR. KATYAL: So --so the black codes are undoubtedly a shameful part of our history, but that doesn't at all mean that this particular law is irrelevant to Second Amendment analysis for two reasons. First, the Solicitor General says correctly, as she did just now, that Louisiana wasn't a state in 1865. The relevant point is what happened in 1868, when Louisiana was admitted to be a state. The Act of June 22nd, 1868, admitted Louisiana as a state. That was the radical Reconstruction Congress. It examined the Louisiana laws, including this specific statute, and Louisiana was admitted into the union by the Reconstruction Congress.
To be clear, the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified a few weeks later on July 9, 1868. (Seth Barrett Tillman and I discuss the act to admit Louisiana, as well as other statutes, in our article on Section 3 at FN 426.)
Justice Gorsuch interrupted, and said Katyal was dancing around the question:
JUSTICE GORSUCH: You're not answering the question. The question is it's an outlier, and --and you just called it a shameful outlier. And I --I agree with that. And Bruen was supposed to look at the mainstream of our tradition and history, not outlying statutes that were unconstitutional the moment they were passed and, yes, when Louisiana was admitted to the union. I understand a lot of people like to cite the black codes who promote gun restrictions, who would -otherwise, they would be garlic in front of a vampire in front of them. But, here, they -they like them, they embrace them. And I'm really interested in why.
Katyal repeated that this particular law was not racist.
MR. KATYAL: So, Justice Gorsuch, when I said the black codes were a shameful period, there are parts of the black codes like this particular statute which were race-neutral, which the Congress of the United States, the -the same Congress that ratified the Fourteenth Amendment, implicitly blessed by admitting Louisiana back in. It didn't treat that with the same --with respect to other laws from other states, but it did here. And, most importantly, even the opponents of the black codes recognized, as the Sickles general order says, that you have no right to carry a firearm onto someone's property absent their consent.
The period of Reconstruction and readmission was a very messy. The records on Section 3 speak to this complexity. At different points, different factions in Congress took different positions with respect to a whole host of issues. Ultimately, all we have is a bill readmitting those states, with a host of conditions. It is tough to argue that Congress "implicitly blessed" a particular gun law by admitting Lousiana, as well as several other states, a few weeks before the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Is there any evidence that Congress scanned all of the law books, line by line, to determine what laws to maintain? I think it more likely that Congress prioritized the most egregious laws that were being enforced, and deprioritized laws that did not have much of an effect. Was there any record of how often this Louisiana law was enforced; that is, how many prosecutions were there for people who carried a firearm into a business without permission.
[Update: Stephen Halbrook's amicus brief for the National African American Gun Association addresses this issue:
An 1865 Louisiana law prohibited "carry[ing] fire-arms on the premises or plantation of any citizen, without the consent of the owner or proprietor." Id. Wolford claims that no evidence exists "that these laws were viewed as controversial or constitutionally questionable. Instead, they were viewed as falling well within the colony's or the State's ordinary police power to regulate the default rules concerning private property." Id. However, a West Law search reveals not a single judicial decision on either law by the courts of New Jersey and Louisiana respectively.
End Update]
Justice Alito challenged the notion that this law was somehow race neutral.
JUSTICE ALITO: Mr. Katyal, wasn't the purpose of the laws in the post---in the post-Reconstruction south that disarmed black people precisely to prevent them from doing what the Second Amendment is designed to protect, which is to defend yourself against attacks? They didn't want the --they wanted to disarm the black population in order to help the Klan terrorize them and other --and law enforcement officers in that period in that region, they wanted to put them at the mercy of racist law enforcement officers. So is it not the height of irony to cite a law that was enacted for exactly the purpose of preventing someone from exercising the Second Amendment right to cite this as an example of what the Second Amendment protects?
MR. KATYAL: So, Justice Alito, we quite agree with you that parts of the black codes were motivated by and had exactly that operation. Our point to you is this consent requirement did not operate that way. Indeed, if anything, it protected black churches and black-owned businesses and the like by insisting on this consent rule. And that is why the radical Reconstruction Congress admitted Louisiana back in. They said no to various laws, but they never did that with respect to this. And this law stayed on the books for a long time.
At common law, churches were not open to the public, in the same sense that a common carrier might be. Indeed, churches have the unique authority to exclude for reasons protected by the Free Exercise Clause. For these reasons, Justice Sotomayor's questions about carrying in churches were a bit of a non-sequitur. But did the "consent rule" really keep the KKK out of black businesses? I am doubtful. If only those who perpetrated the Colfax Massacre of 1873 had dutifully observed the laws on carrying arms.
Towards the end of the argument, Justice Thomas felt compelled to speak up during the seriatim round, something he rarely does.
JUSTICE THOMAS: If you're going to cite the Louisiana black codes of 1865, don't you also have to cite the subsequent adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment that was in part generated because of laws like that?
MR. KATYAL: Right. So that is exactly our point, that the Reconstruction Congress that ratified the Fourteenth Amendment, this is the unusual case in which you have those folks saying effectively Louisiana should come in. And many of the parts of the black codes, including parts that Justice Alito were referring to that were racially discriminatory about firearms, were struck from the Louisiana law. But this law stayed in effect. And so, yes, we do think it is relevant history. We don't think our argument depends on it because there's statute after statute from the founding on. And the idea that those --that the number of statutes we've provided isn't enough, I think, is --is very hard to reconcile when you have zero tradition, zero evidence on the other side saying these statutes were problematic. I mean, these statutes were around. You would have thought someone, if this was an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms, would have had a court case, a commentator, anything like what you had in Bruen. You've got none of that.
Thomas pointed to his McDonald concurrence, which laid this history out in detail.
JUSTICE THOMAS: Well, actually, there was quite --as I said in my McDonald opinion, quite a bit of discussion of these sorts of laws and the consideration of some that they thought that the Privilege --or Immunities Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment preempted these. That's simply my point.
Or maybe the better argument is there is no relevant tradition to support Hawaii's law.
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You miss her point about whether the codes were "deemed" unconstitutional or not. If you define "constitutionality" by what old laws say, then old laws cannot be unconstitutional. If you are going to argue whether the old laws are constitutional or not, then defgerring to history gets you nothing-- might as well just argue over whether the new law is constitutional or not. (granted, not sure why an 1865 law informs the constitution that was passed decades earlier, but...)
If a thief steals a credit card and buys $1000 of goods before the theft is noticed, does he get to keep those goods because the theft is deemed to have occurred only when noticed? Of course not! It was theft from the moment it happened, regardless of when it was discovered.
If a legislatures passes a law which is deemed unconstitutional a month later, it too was unconstitutional right from the start, not just from when it was declared unconstitutional.
Or more simply, if a cop searches a home without reason or warrant, and that search is deemed unconstitutional later at trial, it was unconstitutional when it happened and all that evidence is thrown out; if it were unconstitutional only from the moment of finding that, and constitutional before then, the evidence was valid when introduced because the search was not yet unconstitutional.
Of course lawyers won't agree, but I couldn't care two figs what lawyers quibble about.
Yes, that’s all fine, but then you can’t have a test that defines constitutionality by what was historically done
Sure, you can.
You're using these laws as evidence of what was considered at the time to not violate the right in question.
But this law had as its purpose violating the right in question. As subsequently judicially determined.
It's not an innocent example of a legitimate law, it's a deliberate attack on some people's exercise of the right in question.
You see how this is circular, right?
If we can tell if a law is unconstitutional, let’s just tell if the currently challenged law is unconstitutional. Now I have to find an old law , then we have to litigate the constitutionality of the old law, just to determine if the new law is constitutional
Yeah, that's because the Justices are absolutely determined to find 'constitutional' a lot of laws that facially violate various amendments. So they set up fact intensive rules for when you can violate them.
Another example.
If a law is passed and a person is convicted of felony charges under that law but the law is later declared unconstitutional they are no longer considered felons ( assuming that was the only law for a felony conviction). The law is deemed to essentially have never legally have existed. That would be the case in citing the Black Codes. Since they were declared unconstitutional as far as the law goes they never properly existed.
If we do not rely on the historical laws in place, even if they are racist, how can we rely on anything when circumstances have changed. Either we take history as it was, or we are all living constitutionalists. Or will the rule be 'only the history we like matters'?
More like "history is what we say it is".
Sort of like Humpty Dumpty meets Nineteen-eighty-four.
Try Article V. That's what it's for, when circumstances change.
Or just get the courts to reinterpret laws and the Constitution. They've got a lot of practice at that.
I think you've nailed it. The giveaway is this sentence in the post:
"A blatantly unconstitutional law cannot form part of the tradition for purposes of Bruen."
That borders on tautological, or maybe whatever the inverse of a tautology is.
It would be tautological if there was only one possible basis for a law being blatantly unconstitutional.
It's not tautological if the basis for the unconstitutionality was violating some other part of the Constitution besides the 2nd amendment.
I will not give any respect to the opinions of a person who does not know what a woman is.
Which is really funny when she does know that guns shoot at 800 rounds per second.
What is a woman?
A mature* human with XX chromosomes†.
* Mature is defined biologically at the ability to carry a pregnancy to term. Mature is defined socially at ... it depends. Mature is defined legally at ... again, it depends but historically anywhere from 12 to 21.
† Exceptions may exist for the very tiny subset of humans with relevant chromosomal anomolies.
So a 35 year old who had a hysterectomy isn't a woman?
Don't be stupid. Going through menopause doesn't make you 'not a woman' either. The biological definition says that 'mature' starts at the ability to carry a pregnancy to term. It does not stop when you lose that ability.
So women who are infertile are not women?
If they are infertile because of developmental delays, then no, they are not biologically "women". If they are infertile for other reasons, that's not relevant.
If they are infertile because of developmental delays, then no, they are not biologically "women"
Uhhhhh what?
“ If they are infertile for other reasons, that's not relevant.”
Yeh but you said this: “Mature is defined biologically at the ability to carry a pregnancy to term.”
Sounds like you actually have a hard time defining and keep having to make exceptions and distinctions to include people you want to consider women.
Okay so if you’re 11 and have to have your reproductive organs removed due to a tumor…you’re not a woman?
According to you, XX folks with lifelong uterine or fertility issues are not women.
Also according to you a lot of athletes the Olympics won't allow to compete as women are women.
It's almost like it's not even easy biologically (ie sex), much less socially (ie gender). A bit like the issue you had with defining mature, actually!
Reminds me of Hawley:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/josh-hawley-says-women-people-154942936.html
"According to you, XX folks with lifelong uterine or fertility issues are not women."
I've heard you say that humans are bipedal. So according to you, people with one or no legs aren't human? That's harsh, dude!
I'm just going to reply once because y'all are trolling. Maturity is defined biologically as the ability to carry a pregnancy to term. Maturity is defined legally - which is the only definition relevant to a judge - based on age. In the US, that's 18 (mostly - but that's a different problem).
Not trolling. You’re just having a hard time defending your supposedly airtight definition.
I mean even in this one: if you’re born with XX chromosomes but develop a tumor or sustain an injury that makes childbirth impossible prior to turning. 18 are you a woman or not? Do you ever become one?
Now you have maturity defined:
-Legaly
-Biologically (with some issues)
-Socially
So, now use that paradigm of contextually different definitions and apply it to 'woman.'
No one here is trolling you - these are issues raised by your own comments.
A: "What is a fly?"
B: "A fly is a small insect with two wings."
A: "So a fly with one wing isn't a fly?"
B: "Fuck, you're right! I guess I can't know what a fly is without being a biologist!"
A hysterectomy does not alter one's chromosomes!
Democrat state citing to historical Democrat laws, nothing remarkable about that.
The usage of the "history and tradition" gets quite complicated.
We have to parse late 18th-century laws, apparently, to determine what is appropriate now. The laws were passed in a whole different context, including underlying assumptions sometimes now deemed not only inappropriate, but sometimes unconstitutional.
The "it was a Black Code!" thing turns out to be a complicated bit of historical research, which another contributor said historians weren't a good group to use to determine.
Gorsuch returned once more to the Black Codes at oral argument, asking the state’s lawyer, Neal Katyal, to defend this “astonishing” argument. Katyal agreed that the Black Codes are “undoubtedly a shameful part of our history,” but argued that this particular Louisiana statute was still relevant, for several reasons. First, when the Reconstruction Congress readmitted Louisiana and other states to the Union, it invalidated many of the Black Codes but left the 1865 law alone, implicitly ratifying it as legitimate. Second, when General Daniel Sickles issued an order overriding the Black Codes, he clarified that the right to bear arms did not “authorize any person to enter with arms on the premises of another against his consent.”
https://ballsandstrikes.org/scotus/wolford-v-lopez-oral-argument-recap/
[This was cited in the state briefing, too.]
And that is just ONE citation of history used by the state to back up their law. As with originalism, the winners and losers of these arguments are not always clear at all.
From the Respondent's Brief:
And contemporary opponents of the Black Codes agreed that the Second Amendment did not authorize armed entry without the consent of a property owner. See D.E. Sickles, General Order No. 1, reprinted inA Handbook of Politics for 1868, at 37 (McPherson ed., 1868), cited with approval in Bruen, 597 U.S. at 62. General D.E. Sickles, Commander of the Department of South Carolina, issued a decree pre-empting South Carolina’s Black Codes and providing that, while the “constitutional rights of all loyal and well-disposed inhabitants to keep and bear arms will not be infringed, nevertheless this shall not * * * authorize any person to enter with arms on the premises of another against his consent.”
https://www.scotusblog.com/cases/case-files/wolford-v-lopez/
I don't think trying to parse this one data point will settle the question, but it is notable to show the complexity. Basically crying "BLACK CODE!" as at least two justices did without more, without engaging with Katyal's defense (the OP gets into the weeds as these debates often tend to fall into), is special pleading.
I don't think your counter proves what you think it does. "... against his consent" means in violation of or contrary to his clearly stated desire. In other words, if I hang a 'no guns' sign on my store, you can't come in armed "against" my stated terms.
That simply doesn't apply when I haven't expressed my terms. It definitely does not (and did not in this historical example) require me to affirmatively post signs stating that guns are explicitly allowed. If the decree meant what you claim, there would be ample examples of such signs since we know people of the time still went armed regularly. I am aware of no such examples.
This is irrelevant, though. Everyone agrees that the 2A doesn't protect trespass. The issue is whether the government can make the default nonconsent.
“A blatantly unconstitutional law cannot form part of the tradition for purposes of Bruen.”
Why not? If the laws existed they’re part of the history and tradition of firearms regulations whether you like it or not. If the entire theory is that we look to old laws to figure out what prior generations thought about firearms regulations, then of course they matter. If you exclude them due to unrelated legal developments it’s not really a history and tradition test. It leaves out critical evidence of what people thought the right to keep and bear arms was all about.
"If the entire theory is that we look to old laws to figure out what prior generations thought about firearms regulations, then of course they matter."
These laws prove that prior generations thought that blacks should not be armed, while whites can be. Do you think that is informative of how the Second Amendment should be construed today?
To put it another way, Bruen allows some level of gun control that is consistent with history, presumably to protect public safety. Those who passed those laws thought public safety requires only one race to be disarmed. Again, do you think that is informative today?
"Do you think that is informative of how the Second Amendment should be construed today?"
No. But I'm not the one who came up with the "history and tradition" test. Nor do I think it makes much sense.
"Again, do you think that is informative today?"
Again, no. But that's because I didn't come up with a test like this.
Bored Lawyer — Your historical generalizations are misguided. American history and tradition are replete with examples to show a standard to exclude from arms carrying people of all descriptions. A commonplace standard was constraints for people pre-judged to be dangerous. Blacks were but a subset among those so judged. So were many whites, including the poor, landless laborers, religious dissenters and the irreligious generally, immigrants from various less-favored nations, and most people newly arrived in small settlements accustomed to trust familiar people ahead of strangers.
I point that out while cautioning that different times and places differed on many questions, in an age when the notion of law applied equally everywhere was far less prevalent than it is today. A better approach is to insist on specifics, considered in context of times, places, persons, and events, while pre-excluding nothing.
> It leaves out critical evidence of what people thought the right to keep and bear arms was all about.
If a law was ruled unconstitutional, then that would imply that the thinking behind it was flawed in some way.
If a law is later ruled unconstitutional for violating the Fourteenth Amendment equal protection clause, that doesn't tell us what the original public understanding of the limits on keeping and bearing arms was at the time of the Second Amendment's adoption, which is supposed to be the most important consideration in the history and tradition test. The whole point of the test is to illuminate the public's understanding of the Second at the time it was adopted. If there isn't a strong tradition of regulation then supposedly the regulation is invalid under the Second Amendment.
If there is a strong tradition of a certain type of regulation, that is unconstitutional for an entirely different reason, it still would be part of what the public thought the Second Amendment originally meant. If this tradition just doesn't count, then you're not actually trying to find out the original public meaning of to keep and bear arms. You're doing something else entirely.
We're trying to determine what was regarded as the boundaries of the right. If a law targets a specific group like this, you're not demonstrating the boundaries of the right, you're demonstrating the boundaries of who was being permitted the right.
And when you're talking about a law promulgated by people who were absolutely known to be in the business of attacking part of the population's rights, it just becomes absurd.
Well, unless your goal is, as here, to reduce the entire population to the legal status of blacks under Jim Crow. If that's what you're up to, makes perfect sense.
This is just living constitutionalism. You've given up up on trying to use historical practice to find out what the public in 1791 or 1868 thought it meant for someone to say "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. " Which was what the history and tradition test was for. If you're cutting out historical understandings of what firearm regulations were appropriate because of purely modern developments in constitutional law, then it isn't a history and tradition test or an original public meaning analysis.
You've given up up on trying to use historical practice to find out what the public in 1791 or 1868 thought it meant for someone to say "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. "
The word "someone" in your sentence is the problem. This law does not say what the public thought about "someone" bearing arms. It says what the public thought about a certain racial caste bearing arms. The same racial caste that was deprived of many other rights, like voting. So it's relevance to how we should construe the 2d Amendment about "someone" in our times -- which means any adult -- is nil.
Okay. But that's not a history and tradition test. It's just living constitutionalism.
I'll try one more time.
The history and tradition test is meant to gauge what restrictions on bearing arms were thought reasonable. That means bearing arms in general, for law-abiding adults. A law that does not speak to that is not helpful in that analysis.
To use an analogy, many states today restrict gun ownership from minors. That's because minors are thought to lack maturity needed to bear arms responsibly. I have not researched it, but it would not surprise me if there was historical precedent for that from the Founding era or from the Civil War era. But such laws clearly don't count under Bruen, because their purpose is not to regulate guns in general, but for a particular class of persons (minors) who are believed to lack maturity and responsibility to own and bear arms.
Same for the Black laws. They were promulgated because the people passing them thought blacks could not be trusted to bear arms. Which was based on racist perceptions and history, rather than age. Such laws tell you little about what the public thought about guns in general. So they should not count for the Bruen test.
Such laws tell you little about what the public thought about guns in general.
They tell you about what the public thought about keeping and bearing arms!
And the issue is not that people are lot of the laws being cited are not 'blacks can't own guns' laws, I'd guess, based on the analogies being asserted.
So your argument is so narrow as to be irrelevant to the issue in the OP.
Damn it, Sarcastr0, you can't be THIS ignorant about how Jim Crow worked!
A lot of the Jim Crow laws were nominally color blind, but were never enforced against whites. They just existed to provide an opportunity for selective prosecution.
So, yes, they actually WERE "blacks can't own guns" laws, in practice.
Where I'd disagree with the OP is that there is nothing perverse AT ALL about citing the black codes to defend gun control, because gun control is just Jim Crow with the change that instead of targeting a minority for denial of rights, they set out to deny rights to practically everybody.
And that hardly makes it better.
That obviously isn't correct. Consider a law enacted tomorrow to ban people under 18 from carrying a firearm. To assess whether that violates the 2A, we would not ask, "Would that be constitutional if applied to law-abiding adults?"
No, we'd ask, "Does the right to keep and bear arms apply to people under 18?"
History and tradition means history and tradition as applied to those who had the right to keep and bear arms.
No one would claim that the fact that slaves were totally disarmed would mean that people thought that totally disarming someone was consistent with the rkba, it means that people thought slaves didn't have the rkba.
Similarly, a law that disarms freedmen isn't evidence that people thought that the rkba allowed people to be disarmed, it's evidence that people thought that freedmen didn't get the rkba.
TIP — Question begging, illustrated. Fill out all the relevant categories and behold the mess it will create.
So, Lawtalkingguy, you don't perceive any conceptual disconnect if grossly unconstitutional historical laws are treated as defining or shrinking the scope of a current constitutional right under Bruen'a history‑and‑tradition test?
The disconnect is in Bruen itself. I think the history and tradition test is wrong. But if it is the test to be used then all the history and tradition matters in defining the scope of the right. Because all history and tradition informs what the public understood at the time the right was adopted/incorporated. If traditions are not considered because later courts declared or would have declared them unconstitutional for completely different reasons, then it's not a history and tradition test. And we're not determining the original public meaning and applying it. We're doing something else.
And if we're going to do something else, we might as well just do means end fit analysis using intermediate (or even strict) scrutiny because that's much more manageable for courts and litigants and policymakers than whatever it is we're doing now.
This doesn't mean every law or practice must be considered in the analysis. Jim Crow laws are disgraceful anomalies. not something that should inform judgment about the nation's history and tradition. And eliminating the Bruen test would not remove discretion from the analysis. This is inherent in any Court analysis.
“Jim Crow laws are disgraceful anomalies. not something that should inform judgment about the nation's history and tradition.”
They’re certainly disgraceful but not only were they not anomalies they were a core part of the nation’s history and tradition for most of the time we’ve been a country. Up until relatively recently the norm in the country has been either slavery or various forms of legal restrictions on free blacks. And legal and political fights over these topics were central to the country’s development.
No such laws were not the “norm.” You must have considerable contempt for the United States if you believe Jim Crow laws are at the “core” of and define our history and traditions.
It seems rather advantageous for the conservative Justices if they can just toss aside history and tradition that is inconvenient for them by calling it an “outlier”.
So we can get back to arresting homosexuals, and forbidding women from owning property?
Oh, wait. We don't really know what a woman is, so we?
There was the Harvard law review guy who wanted to bring back blasphemy laws because blasphemy laws were around back then so how could it be unconstitutional
Great fun! No lawyer would ever be out of job due to litigating WHOSE blasphemy.
Was there any 18th century law against blaspheming Mohammed? I’m pretty sure that is the test
Was the Louisiana statute found unconstitutional on second amendment grounds? If not, I’m not sure why it should be cast out of our history and tradition of gun control just because it was found illegal on unrelated grounds.
'History and tradition' can have a ton of meanings - that's part of the fuzziness of Bruen.
But it doesn't mean 'history and tradition and modern jurisprudence regarding other parts of the Constitution.'
Because that would kind of give the game away that this is all pretext, eh?
This mess is SCOTUS's fault for making up that stupid history and traditions test.
That's not the test.
The test is 'Text, as informed by history and tradition'.
The history and tradition part actually allows limited infringement of the right expounded in the text.
Without the "history and tradition" part then goodbye to "sensitive places", " felon in possession ", red flag laws, permitting, etc.
The text is actually very clear "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" doesn't really leave much room for any of that, let alone the judge made "balancing test".
"A well regulated...."
Well-regulated = "in good order as to arrangement or control," 1709 (Shaftsbury)
This is well-trodden.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/well-regulated
"JUSTICE JACKSON: To --to people other than the people in this small segment that you're talking about, who were a part of society, but I guess you're saying that for the purpose of this test, we're not going to consider what happened to them?
Sure we should consider what happened to them, but to make sure it doesn't happen again, not as an excuse to do it to somebody else.
And lets acknowledge the biggest targets of gun control are minorities in Blue cities, not rural white gunowners in red states.
Right but if you consider it "to make sure it doesn't happen again" you're not actually using history and tradition to determine the original public meaning of the Second Amendment. It's just living constitutionalism.
The text of the 1865 Louisiana statute:
"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the State of Louisiana, in General Assembly convened, That it shall not be lawful for any person or persons to carry fire-arms on the premises or plantations of any citizen, without the consent of the owner or proprietor, other than in lawful discharge of a civil or military order; and any person or persons so offending shall be fined a sum not less than one dollar nor more than ten dollars, or imprisoned not less than one day nor more than ten days in the parish jail, or both, at the discretion of any court of competent jurisdiction."
The law applied to all persons regardless of race.
Nominally, sure. The point of a lot of these laws was just to set up a pretext for racially selective enforcement.
Justice Rivers H. Buford of the Florida Supreme Court in the 1941 case Watson v. Stone:
"I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps. The same condition existed when the Act was amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of security. The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied. We have no statistics available, but it is a safe guess to assume that more than 80% of the white men living in the rural sections of Florida have violated this statute. It is also a safe guess to say that not more than 5% of the men in Florida who own pistols and repeating rifles have ever applied to the Board of County Commissioners for a permit to have the same in their possession and there has never been, within my knowledge, any effort to enforce the provisions of this statute as to white people, because it has been generally conceded to be in contravention to the Constitution and non-enforceable if contested. "
Even accepting that, that 1865 statute could be read to mean "carrying a firearm on the premises of any citizen when he has instructed you that he does not consent."
That statute doesn't say anything about the "default rule."
That all aside, I don't think the state should be allowed to criminalize carrying against an owner's wishes in violation of a sign. If he asks you to leave, and you don't, sure, as that's trespassing whether you're carrying a gun or not. But not otherwise.
No, I think the law should be allowed to criminalize that, but absent your having done something violent, maybe a misdemeanor.
It's trespassing if you know in advance you're forbidden to enter and you enter anyway. If I post my land, and you enter anyway, I don't need to show up and tell you to leave for it to be trespassing.
So if I post my land, "No entering with firearms." and you enter with a firearm anyway, you are committing trespass, because you entered despite knowing that you were prohibited from doing so.
But as, absent some act of violence, nobody gets hurt, it shouldn't be more than a minor offense.
To be clear, the reason it shouldn't be more than ordinary trespass is because exercise of a constitutional right can never, properly, be treated as an aggravating factor.
Jackson's view of when a law "becomes" constitutional would require that judicial opinions never have retroactive effect, when in fact that is the default position. Even more so, a court could not hold the defendant in a constitutional case of first impression liable for a constitutional violation.
" First, the Solicitor General says correctly, as she did just now, that Louisiana wasn't a state in 1865....."
Were the litigants (and Court) unaware of the Supreme Court's opinion in Texas v. White (1869)? Because the Supreme Court seems to have euled once a state, always a state:
"The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union, and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States, remained perfect and unimpaired. It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union. If this were otherwise, the State must have become foreign, and her citizens foreigners. The war must have ceased to be a war for the suppression of rebellion, and must have become a war for conquest and subjugation."
States were states or not states for different purposes, as the Union found convenient. It was totally arbitrary, they weren't even trying to be consistent about anything except getting their way.