The Volokh Conspiracy
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How to Abolish ICE
Recent events in Minnesota bolster the already strong case for abolishing ICE - and for the plan of doing so by transferring its funds to ordinary state and local police.

Recent Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) depredations in Minnesota further strengthen the already compelling case for abolishing the agency. A recent federal district court ruling outlines in detail ICE's extensive use of force against peaceful protestors, violations of a variety of constitutional rights, and other cruel, unjust and illegal actions. Moreover, it is clear that these wrongs are not just the fault of a few rogue agents, but structural defects in the agency and its mission, exacerbated by the Trump administration's enormous expansion of it, and hiring of numerous dubious new recruits. The agency doesn't even follow its own supposed safety guidelines, which neglect was one of the reasons for the indefensible killing of Renee Good.
These widespread abuses have turned already skeptical public opinion further against ICE, to the point where a substantial majority of Americans disapprove of the agency, and - for the first time - a narrow plurality want to see it abolished.
Abolition is indeed the right approach. In an August 2025 article in The Hill, I outlined how to do it: by shutting down the agency and transferring its funds to state and local police. This strategy would have the virtue of simultaneously further expanding political support for abolition, reducing crime, and ending ICE abuses. Here is a brief excerpt:
The Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency has become notorious for its cruelty, abuses of civil liberties and racial profiling. As a result, the agency and the Trump administration's deportation policies generally have become increasingly unpopular…..
[M]ost Democrats have hesitated to call for the agency's abolition, probably for fear of seeming to be soft on crime…. But opponents can avoid such accusations by combining abolition of ICE with reallocation of its funds to ordinary police, which would undercut accusations of being pro-criminal or anti-law enforcement. This could greatly expand support for abolition….
In my 2022 book "Free to Move," I proposed dismantling ICE and giving the money to ordinary police, perhaps in the form of federal grants to state and local law enforcement. Recipient agencies should be required to use the funds to target violent and property crime, and abjure ICE-style abuses.
Putting more ordinary police on the streets is an effective way to reduce crime rates, according to a long line of studies….
Focusing on undocumented immigrants is a poor use of law enforcement resources…. Transferring ICE funds to state and local police would allow a greater focus on violent and property crime, regardless of the perpetrators' background….
Abolishing ICE would not end all deportations. State and local authorities could still, in many cases, turn illegal migrants over to the federal government for removal… But abolishing ICE would make deportation much more dependent on state and local cooperation and would empower jurisdictions to make their own choices.
This strategy is even more viable today than might have been the case a few months ago. Events in Minnesota have further turned public opinion against ICE, and the idea of transferring its funds to real cops can provide an additional boost for abolition, by neutralizing fears that doing so would somehow increase crime. In addition, transferring the money to state and local cops could draw support from law enforcement interest groups that would stand to benefit.
In the August article, I also outlined how ICE abuses - including illegal violence, racial profiling, and horrific detention conditions - were already ubiquitous, even before the outrages in Minnesota. Recent events are an expansion of these evils, not a singular aberration. In that article, and a follow-up piece for the Boston Globe, (non-paywalled version here), I addressed a number of possible objections, such as concerns that local police also engage in various abuses. Here is an excerpt from that second article:
Many studies show that putting more police on the streets can reduce crime. Indeed, diverting law enforcement resources from deportation to ordinary policing can help focus more effort on the violent and property crimes that most harm residents of high-crime areas. Deportation efforts, by contrast, target a population with a lower crime rate than others…..
Some progressives might nonetheless oppose transferring funds to conventional police. The latter, too, sometimes engage in abusive practices, including racial profiling. I share some of these concerns and am a longtime advocate of increased efforts to combat racial profiling. But comparative assessment is vital here. Despite flaws, conventional police are much better in these respects than ICE, with its ingrained culture of brutality and massive profiling. They have stronger incentives to maintain good relations with local communities and don't need to rely on racial profiling nearly as much to find suspects. A shift of law enforcement funds from ICE to conventional police would mean a major overall reduction in racial profiling and other abuses.
Survey data show most Black people (the biggest victims of profiling) actually want to maintain or increase police presence in their neighborhoods, even as they (understandably) abhor racial profiling. Grant money transferred from ICE could potentially be conditioned on stronger efforts to curb racial profiling and related abuses, thereby further reducing the problem. It should also be conditioned on spending it on combatting violent and property crime, and structured in a way that prevents excessive dependence on federal funding.
If ICE can be abolished without transferring the funds to local and state police, I would still support doing so. But the strategy I outline offers the most likely pathway to political success, and could simultaneously reduce criminality in high-crime neighborhoods.
I first outlined this general approach to immigration and crime issues in Chapter 6 of my 2022 book "Free to Move: Foot Voting, Migration, and Political Freedom," where I also make other points on why crime control is a poor justification for deportation and immigration restrictions. See also my more recent discussion of these broader issues here.
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Until we have all open borders to everyone in the world ICE is a necessary evil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just a daffy fool.
Of course, that is in fact Ilya Somin's goal.
This is truly asinine. There are no "depredations" by ICE. There is an organized effort to obstruct federal law enforcement, negligent/corrupt conduct by state officials, and rent-a-mobs disturbing the peace. If law and order was this author's goal, he'd address this misconduct.
It is not. We could still deport specific people without having a specialized agency devoted to that.
We either have an immigration system, or open borders. And as was predicted, you can’t have a robust welfare system and open borders, because the poor from around the world will stream in her for the welfare benefits. Take your pick then - open borders or welfare.
Yes, I understand. Your party was importing voters in trade for generous welfare benefits, paid for by the rest of us. As with Somin, whatever it takes to get and retain power, even if it means bankrupting this country, is justified.
I hear this one all the time. It's batshit crazy.
Try opening your eyes. Then you'll see it for yourself.
My party can barely keep its own state chapters in line, and opposes all welfare, so WTF are you talking about?
But immigrants are not eligible for almost any welfare and of course cannot vote, so WTF are you talking about a second time?
Of course it was Illegal. But the Biden Administration paid the money out, anyway, and the states took it, and passed it out to the illegals. Who was going to stop them? The Garland DOJ, staffed with Social Justice Warriors? The Biden White House, run by AutoPen? They all wanted the illegals to get the (as you admit, illegal) welfare money. It’s the Trump Administration enforcing the laws that make paying those welfare benefits illegal that has so many Blue States scream like stuck pigs, as those welfare benefits are cut off to those not legally entitled to them. And trying to keep paying those benefits without federal reimbursements, is part of why most of them are verging on bankruptcy.
But claiming that welfare benefits weren’t routinely paid out, because that would have been illegal, is ridiculous.
This is utterly bananas.
Any evidence for this vast unlawfully giving welfare to illegals conspiracy?
Welfare benefits weren't routinely paid out, because that would've been illegal.
Go watch Bessent or Oz describe the billions in fraud they are uncovering in Democrat states, much to the benefit of illegals. After their and their buddies NGOs take their vig, of course.
Billions in fraud = routinely
I regret to inform you that Voltage! is voltaging again.
And people don't routinely cheat on their taxes, speed on the highways, litter, engage in digital piracy, etc., because that would be illegal.
Read Hayden's accusation again. It's not that individual fraud exists, it's that states were systemizing fraudulent payouts to illegals.
And Biden somehow as well.
It's bananas, as I said.
Ok wait. So your retarded argument is since Democrats illegally pay welfare benefits to illegal aliens, Republicans need to waste billions more on ICE?
Even if the premise were true (it's a lie), that's the dumbest possible policy. You could use a fraction of that money to better enforce the law against giving welfare to illegals in the first place, thereby saving billions of dollars times two, and then by your own logic they'd all just go away. No fuss nor muss.
We can have open borders or a welfare state. Fine. If the progressives want open borders, then we end the welfare state.
Sure we could still get rid of the worst ones with more general agencies. But they wouldn’t do it as well or as thoroughly. Which, of course, is one of the goals of your party.
No. As Ilya alludes to, with the feds out of the picture, state and local authorities would be empowered to pick up the slack. (This could be made explicit in the law if necessary.) They wouldn't be able to deport, but they could do the investigating and rounding up. Then hand them off to CBP or whoever (instead of bussing them, ridiculously, to Martha's Vineyard). If Texas, say, wants to crack down cruelly on illegal aliens in there state, go hog wild.
One side-effect of Trump: Democrats are way more into federalism than we used to be.
Which agency has the authorization to enforce US immigration law (besides ICE)?
The FBI has the authority to enforce all federal laws.
So, you propose turning the FBI into an immigration enforcement agency? While increasing their budget and manpower?
Interesting.
Also CBP.
Four MS-13 gang members were arrested in Maryland for luring a 14-year-old boy into a park and hacking the child to death with machetes.
Which anti-ICE Mommy wants to take these illegal alien killers home to play with their kids? Or maybe a bleeding heart law professor leftist would like to sponsor them and let them into his home.
The comments for this one are going to be wild.
But yeah, poorly-trained masked men in vans rounding people up and abducting them doesn't seem like the orderly kind of enforcement that any civilised country should be proud of. It's the sort of thing you'd see in - oh, I don't know - Iran or something. Or Russia.
Stephen Miller loves it, of course, but that guy's a complete psychopath.
If we weren’t dealing with AWFULs, we could expect ICE to be civil.
But this is an insurrection, not unlike the bussing protests a half century ago, and I don’t remember anyone calling for a return to segregation.
But Ilya is going to to bring back Lynch Law…
Did Russia let in 42 million illegals?
Oh, wait. That’s right. They shoot them on sight.
I like Russia’s solution.
Every nation polices its borders. Somin wants the USA to have open borders, and replace its ignorant citizens with even more ignorant foreigners.
Cool! Then you are also a complete psychopath. Good to get that out there.
Federal laws will always be enforced by federal law enforcement. If "ICE" is "abolished" it will only be resurrected under a different name.
Yes. California and Texas would have very different results if Somin gets his way. Immigration enforcement needs to be uniform (with the current Millerized version sent to the scrapheap).
(with the current Millerized version sent to the scrapheap).
/////////////////////
Gee I wonder why ICE has to armor up like SWAT? Can it have anything to do with people like Somin encouraging others to harass and target and interfere with operations in any way possible sometimes... oftentimes even violently as Renee Good did? And Target agents in their private life as well as their families? Can it have anything to do with local authorities actively impeding operations and withholding information forcing ice into more dangerous mistake prone methods?
Tell you what Josh. Why don't you and like-minded go out with nothing but a clipboard and waggy finger and apprehend an illegal immigrant rapist or gang member sheltered by local authorities and crazed armed activists who have had it drilled in their head that anyone enforcing immigration law is a literal Nazi, yourself and show ice how it should be done?
There you go again assuming ICE is just targeting the worst of the worst. Millerism wants every last unauthorized person kicked out, and a lot more than that as well.
THEY ARE CRIMINALS.
Not all of them. There are ways to end up here illegally that aren't criminal. Are you saying that those people shouldn't be targetted?
By unauthorized you mean those that illegally entered the USA or stayed longer than their visa permitted? In other words lawbreakers.
Yes, either criminal or civil law. Of course, you and many others want them all out. The majority do not.
Are you with Miller on kicking out lawful visitors and immigrants? How about restricting new immigrants to Northern and Western European countries?
I want those whose presence in our country is illegal removed from our country. The purpose of immigration laws is to decide who is allowed to enter and stay in a nation. The most common penalty for those illegally present is removal. Allowing the illegal conduct to continue is not an option as all that does is encourage more lawbreaking.
Tell me why we should ignore the law and allow the illegal presence of millions of illegal aliens to continue.
Most have been in this country for years, productively working and raising families, including citizen kids. We are shooting ourselves in the foot by deporting such people.
To be sure, they should not have been here in the first place. But, we are now in a position to do ourselves the most good by giving amnesty in exchange for building the wall (or whatever it takes) to secure the border.
You did not answer these questions:
The Democrat party is adamantly against securing the border. It is hard to see the Democrats accepting any sort of reasonable deal.
The Democrat [sic] party is adamantly against securing the border.
No we're not. Biden tried to get more border security money if you recall, but Trump told Republicans to vote against it to make him look bad. Then as soon as Trump got in office, they voted him billions of ICE dollars.
If Democrats wanted more immigration, we'd do it by allowing for more legal immigration. Nobody wants illegal immigration, it's bad for everyone, the immigrants most of all.
Randal two things
1) The border bill proposed by Biden would have allowed 5000 illegal border crossers per day ( over 1.8 million per year) and even that number could have been exceeded if in the opinion of the DHS Secretary decided it was to the benefit of the USA to allow them in ( non-reviewable by the courts btw).
2) President Trump's Administration managed to shut down the border immediately without new money or authority. We didn't need new legislation, we needed a new POTUS.
#1: Flat lie. It doesn't even make sense on its face -- how could they be both "allowed" and "illegal?"
#2: After Trump scuttled the bill, Biden shut down the border unilaterally. That move was questionably legal, but it was his only remaining option. Trump continued what Biden started. Again, questionably legal, but moot at this point now that Trump got his ICE bill passed.
Randal, Randal, Randal
1) Biden's bill would have allowed the illegal aliens in the US until their cases were ajudicated but with so many being allowed in the initial hearings were years out
2) So you admit that additional funding and authority wasn't needed. The Trump Administration has managed to reduce the flow of illegal aliens by between 80-90% per month over Biden's last year in 2024. And that was before receiving one penny from the BBB which wasn't even officially proposed in the House until May 20, 2025 and wasn't signed into law until July 2,2025 with the first moneys not being disbursed until September.
Biden's bill would have allowed the illegal aliens in the US until their cases were ajudicated but with so many being allowed in the initial hearings were years out
That was already true for an unlimited number of immigrants. The bill didn't do that. It reduced the number from infinity down to a manageable amount.
So you admit that additional funding and authority wasn't needed
No, I said it was questionably legal.
I don't completely trust Trump's immigration numbers. We know he doesn't mind cooking the books, and the books look mighty suspicious. If he were making up numbers, these are the numbers he would make up. They feel artificial compared to the whole history of immigration numbers, including his own first term.
We gave amnesty in the past with the promise that the border would be secured and we would not need to do so again. We never got that secured border and have given several mini amnesties since ( DACA for example). All another amnesty would do is encourage more illegal immigration.
It would not have allowed any illegal border crossers per day.
Every case where you can deep dive in you almost inevitably find out that they leave out crucial details that start to put the sob story that is the only thing most people hear in focus. Regardless though its not like the seas part and the activists step aside politely and let ICE do its work on the 'real bad guys'. And they wouldn't even know or care anyway who is who.
They defend the criminals (beyond just immigration) as fiercely or even more fiercely and they will just lie their butts off to the public and each other and make them out to be saints regardless. Again look at Renee Good who if you just read the headlines you'd think was just some random innocent woman who was driving through the area minding her own business.
you almost inevitably find
No one does unshakeable priors like Amos.
They defend the criminals (beyond just immigration) as fiercely or even more fiercelyBullshit.
Good was a citizen and not a criminal.
I don't know what planet your living on but it is absolutely criminal to flee in your 3 ton vehicle when ordered to stop by law enforcement, even if you don't do it in the general direction of law enforcement or hit anyone which she did. And people have been shot doing so many times before for arguably less with less controversy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Y_iKAclsQ
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57160926
https://abc7chicago.com/post/college-student-shot-by-cops-after-she-ran-over-officer-police-say/2516010/
https://www.forcescience.com/2017/04/court-rules-on-ois-where-officer-put-self-in-jeopardy-of-moving-car/
https://katv.com/news/local/court-reverses-order-that-reinstated-former-little-rock-police-officer-charles-starks
What do you think cops just let people who run away from a stop, especially those that hit them go and just forget about it? lol.
I'll give you that's is possible she was fleeing a lawful detention. It's also possible she was unlawfully detained and committed no crime (and no for the umpteenth time, she did not try to run him over - stop with that Bullshit).
So at worst, it was a crime brought about by reckless, asinine, escalate-to-DEFCON1-right-away actions by ICE. She is being defended because she should have never been in a position to be shot because of the jack-booted thugs at ICE. Miller wants them to act like jack-booted thugs.
It's also possible she was unlawfully detained and committed no crime
>>>>>>>
You don't get to set up your own checkpoint to block law enforcement. They aren't even denying this.
>>>>>>
(and no for the umpteenth time, she did not try to run him over - stop with that Bullshit).
>>>>
And again for the umpteenth time this does not matter. If someone hit a regular officer while fleeing they don't get a free pass by saying 'Oopsie I didn't mean to hit you when I was disobeying your order and running away in 3 ton vehicle with multiple pedestrians around!' Are you having trouble comprehending something this simple?
>>>>>
She is being defended because she should have never been in a position to be shot
>>>>>>
She would have never been in a position to be shot if she had not gone over there precisely to screw with ICE. Play stupid games and all that.
Again they are not even attempting to claim they weren't there to interfere.
>>>>>>
So at worst, it was a crime brought about by reckless, asinine, escalate-to-DEFCON1-right-away actions by ICE.
>>>>>>
If I was out there doing a job for which many in the media and prominent positions wanted and were encouraging people to at best ruin the rest of my life and having their surrogates encourage others to violently target me and my family you bet I am going to put on serious protective gear. But like I said you are free to show ICE the way by getting the activists to voluntarily turn in child molesters. Or at least not help them evade authorities.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/anti-ice-activists-help-migrant-child-rapist-escape-arrest-colorado-officials
But they don't seem very eager to listen to some reasoned words based on their actions. Heck much of the current action in Minneapolis is due to Somali fraudsters which even King Walz himself admits are real. But we're still supposed to just let them be.
Who's not denying what? She wasn't blocking anyone. Watch the video. Cars are freely going around her SUV.
Who's not denying what? She wasn't blocking anyone. Watch the video. Cars are freely going around her SUV.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
She had her car sideways right on the road. Thats blocking the road. Apparently as some (unsuccessful) attempt to checkpoint ICE while letting other traffic through. It still is blocking whether or not other cars can squeeze through.
If you do that shit the police are going to bust you and you can't say. Its fine officer, cars are going around me.
First fleeing police then hitting them then parking sideways on a snowy skidprone road for no good reason. Leftoids sure seem to suddenly think a lot of clearly dangerous stuff is legal for some reason.
They were not "squeezing through." They were freely driving by, and she was waving them by. No "checkpoint" was "apparent."
It was a violation of traffic laws for her car to be there. But ICE agents do not enforce traffic laws, and she was not blocking ICE from seizing or transporting anyone anywhere.
Putting on protective gear is not the conduct of the jack-booted thugs who are instilling fear as directed by their bosses.
3 ton! In another week Good will have been piloting a 747.
Do you think that "law enforcement" is the boss of Americans?
Do you think that "law enforcement" is the boss of Americans?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Uh...in a way yes when they are halting your attempt to impede their activity? I'm confused as to what point you are trying to make here. Officers issue orders and people ideally follow them. Thats sort of how law enforcement should work. Are you saying that people can just freely choose not to obey a police officer and run off whenever they feel like it?
I guess after years of laughing at them the whole mainstream prog establishment in America is going sovereign citizen.
I think you are confused how a free society works. "Ideally," officers do not try to "issue orders," because (and I reiterate) law enforcement is not the boss of us. In certain narrow circumstances — governed by the fourth amendment — one must submit to the police. And yes, one cannot prevent the police from enforcing the law. But it's not some general rule that people must obey them.
Amos comes out against MLK in Selma.
I want every single illegal out too.
Why?
BECAUSE THEY’RE ILLEGAL.
They jumped the line. They’re stealing money from my kids and grandkids. They’re hurting American citizens physically and damaging their property.
GET THEM OUT.
That is the purpose. Somin is in favor of whatever policy damages the USA the most.
A lot of people who claim to be anti-illegal immigrant appear to have the mistaken idea that there is a "line" and these people are cutting in front of people ahead of them instead of waiting their turn. But in fact, for the vast vast majority, there is no line, no turn.
They are not.
Oh yes they are. Deficit spending to cover the cost of taking care of those 8 digits of illegals in our country, giving them medical, food, housing, schooling, fire, police, etc, benefits at taxpayer expense.
We aren’t talking the set of all immigrants here, who admittedly more than pay their way here (starting with Elon Musk, down through several Conspirators (led by EV), etc). But rather the subset of immigrants who are here illegally. And they cost us $trillions$. And most egregiously, illegals receive far higher welfare benefits than those they were really aimed at. They have bankrupted most of the Blue States already, now that COVID-19 and Biden Administration era slush funds have been cut off. Maybe except for CO, which, until the next election, has had its TABOR Amdt protecting against over taxation. Heck, CA can’t even start funding its nutty Reparations policy, or continue to pay for its bullet train from nowhere to nowhere. Or even to protect its infrastructure from natural phenomena, such as wildfires.
But with welfare programs, alone, paying $15k or more per illegal immigrant (ignoring the added costs of police, fire, etc), illegals are far from self supporting.
Are you on drugs? Illegal immigrants cost you trillions?!!?! Most blue states are bankrupt?
This is like saying there isn't a line at a train station with turnstiles where you scan/holepunch/insert a ticket in order to access the platform, and that those who jump over the turnstiles (instead of purchasing a ticket and scanning/holepunching/inserting it) aren't doing anything wrong.
No, it's not like saying that. That's the whole point. Your analogy is flawed, in that at a train station anyone can buy a ticket and get on line. If people are in front of you, just wait until they get through the turnstiles. That process simply isn't available in the immigration context.
And those people who don't buy a ticket and just jump over the turnstile?
"But in fact, for the vast vast majority, there is no line, no turn."
So what? Serious, so what? You write that like it's an argument.
For most bank robbers, there is no line, no turn, because they don't have any money on deposit at the bank to withdraw in the first place.
Selective immigration implies that there are people who get rejected by the system. That doesn't magically entitle them to immigrate illegally just because they can't do so legally.
Because They don't have any right to come here in the first place!
Do you bother to read whole posts before you respond? (Given that you don't read whole articles before posting them thinking they support your position, I assume not.) I explained the "So what?": many people have a flawed mental model of how the immigration system works, and their antipathy towards illegal immigrants relies on that error.
(I've observed a similar error manifest when there's a story about an illegal immigrant who was here for 20 years being deported and some people say, "I don't have much sympathy. He had 20 years to become legal; why didn't he just do that?" (Answer: because there wasn't any way for him to do that.))
If one's view is based on a misconception, then clearing up that misconception is important. Yes, other people may just say, "I don't care," and they won't be influenced by new information. (In fact, I'll wager that most people — you at the top of the list — are never influenced by new information. But some may be.)
I helped my wife navigate the system, I know quite well how it works. And, I don't care.
There're no new information here. Lawful residence in the US is not subject to adverse possession. A decade, two decades, four, I DON'T CARE. Every day of those forty years was a fresh offense.
They are primarily targeting the worst of the worst. That, and the AWFLs, are why they had to armor up.
Absolutely.
It doesn't. HTH.
When did Prof. Somin ever do that?
Renee Good did not do anything violently.
Never happened.
Also never happened. You will see loudmouthed MAGA making claims like that, but "actively impeding" would be illegal and people would've been arrested and prosecuted if it did. (Sorry, it did happen once: that judge in Milwaukee.)
"Forcing."
“ Renee Good did not do anything violently.”
BS.
She ran into and injured an ICE officer with her SUV. We will never know if it was grossly negligent or intentional, but it was still violent and still a crime. He had internal bleeding, that can be fatal, if untreated, for which he was treated at the local Level I trauma hospital (Hannipin County*). So quit the BS that she wasn’t a violent criminal.
You can argue that she wasn’t otherwise a bad or violent person. But at the time she was fleeing law enforcement officers who had given her a valid order to get out of her car. And that, in itself, is a crime. The only real question there was whether her fleeing was a misdemeanor or a felony.
*Good friend and fraternity brother ran the operations side of their ER for decades, before ending his career as Director of Emergency Services for Hannipin County.
She did not attack anyone; rather, she was attacked. There is no evidence of any injury.
That again, is idiotic. Internal bleeding was found and treated.
And Good was fleeing from being ordered to exit her vehicle. She can’t be “attacked” by a LEO for that. She was a fleeing criminal, and thus not legally privileged to use any force, whatsoever, to resist apprehension. If excess force had been used in her attempted apprehension, that wasn’t the time or place to make that stand. That is part of what courts are for.
This is just a bunch of leaglaish words to justify shooting to kill with no deadly threat.
It is not the law.
It’s also not related to the facts here, but you seem to fervently believe whatever you like.
Come on. I dare you! Next time you are pulled over by a cop, for speeding, missing a stop sign, or even a burned out taillight or broken windshield. And instead of complying with his orders, you instead put your vehicle in gear and drive off. See what happens. The next time you talk to a cop, it is likely to be at gunpoint, with other officers backing him up.
That’s the lesson that every guy I know learned by the time he was 21. Probably 18 for most. Fleeing the cops is most often far worse than the original infraction or criminal act. At worse, Good might have received a ticket or citation of some sort, if she had complied with the officers’ orders. And very likely just let go.
My theory is that, as a white female, Good never was taught this lesson, like her male or minority cohorts would have been. It’s been called White Female Privilege, for good reason.
https://youtu.be/Uj63XI_d7_A?si=DWDegdP7_W_RyKkC
This is a video showing what can happen if you resist police orders. The good news is that no one was really hurt, except for being roughed up a bit by the dog.
Internal bleeding can mean anything from a bruise to a torn artery draining you dry, and everything inbetween. Just knowing that he had internal bleeding tells us very little about how seriously he was injured.
It does prove the people who say he wasn't hit wrong, but so did the videos, so that's kind of redundant.
Nieporent has a thing about calling me a lyier. Often it involves legal discussions, even when there is no really clean answers. Often it’sk
because he apparently lives is a deep blue bubble. Contrary to his view of me, I think it is more intentional naivety, and not intentional lying on his part.
I try to be civil here. Esp at VC. EV and I belonged to an email list serve group (cyberia-l) way back when. And he sent me an email one day chastising me for intemperate language. I stood rebuked. But then saw a link to his nascent blog, the Volokh Conspiracy. Clicked on the link, and discovered blogging. So, I try to follow his advice still, decades later, despite how many times I want to respond inappropriately, esp to Nieporent here.
I agree that the injuries to the ICE agent probably weren’t that serious. Another couple mph could have been. Internal bleeding can kill.
I do think that Good committed a violent act. I think that striking someone with your vehicle is a violent act. And maybe Nieporent believes that in order for there to be a violent act, there needs to be proper intent. But just like the frustrated mother who harms or kills her baby by shaking it too hard, I don’t absolve the mother, nor Good for their violent acts, even though neither probably intended harm.
"Nieporent has a thing about calling me a lyier."
Because you are a liar.
"I do think"
And there we go.
I think there needs to be intent, yes, of course, to call something a "violent act." If one is in a supermarket parking lot and one deliberately shoves a grocery cart into the side of someone's car because one is mad at the other person, that's a "violent act." If one opens one's car door a little too firmly and it hits the car parked adjacent because the spaces are too narrow, that's not a "violent act" even if it does more damage than the cart, because there was no intent to hit the other car.
As for the rest of your post, I consider deliberate lies to be uncivil. You in particular have a habit of inventing elaborate stories that are complete fiction, and repeating them after having been told they were false. One that immediately comes to mind wrt you is your utterly false, based on exactly zero facts, claim that Trump tried to give back the classified documents he had stolen but the mean ol' National Archives/DOJ wouldn't give him enough time to do so despite him asking for it and that's why he still had them. Zero truth; you made it all up. First, he had plenty of time under any standard; it was a year and a half before they finally executed the search warrant. Second, he never asked for more time; in fact, he supplied a false affidavit saying they had returned everything. Third, he didn't need any time; as we saw it took a team of FBI agents just a few hours to find the documents he was still hiding. And yet every time I point this out, you slink away and then repeat the claim a few threads later.
Here, you're inventing "trillions!" of dollars in welfare payments to illegal aliens, that were deliberately and knowingly fraudulently paid out — and not by some low-level clerk, but by Biden or his inner circle themselves. (I mean, Biden or his circle authorized it; not that they personally cut the checks.)
And I admit that I hold you — a lawyer — to a higher standard than a pure troll like Voltage!.
did we forget clinton
did we forget obama
That's (D)ifferent
Um... I'm not 100% sure of that.
Maybe California should be allowed to protect criminal aliens and to support indigent aliens and Texas should be allowed to send aliens who cross the borders straight to California.
Why not let California suffer the consequences of its actions?
That's true. But as DOGE supporters were enthusiastically pointing out way in early 2025, sometimes an agency has been captured by the wrong type of people and has an irredeemably bad culture. There may also have been mission bloat.
If that is the case, throwing it all away and starting over with new employees and a new organization doing the bare minimum is a valid way to get a reset.
It wasn't a totally invalid thing to say about the DoEd and it's not a totally invalid thing to say about ICE.
Which is a far cry from handing it over to state law enforcement.
FBI first..
ATF first, then FBI
Until we have all open borders to everyone in the world ICE is a necessary evil. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just a daffy fool.
Lots of daffy fools, apparently, given the poll numbers cited.
"Open borders to everyone" means no restrictions. Traditionally, for instance, states had the power to deny entry to paupers, the diseased, and various criminal types.
Why can't states today enforce such rules, especially if states like Texas get more federal funding that is used by the federal government? I personally am wary about just giving local police more money and power. But I also understand that the perfect can be the enemy of the good in that respect.
Congress has the power to supersede that authority in some ways (partially based on constitutional law, some conservatives and/or libertarians disagree with), but need not.
Anyway, the ending of ICE won't mean the federal government will have no role in immigration enforcement. After all, to cite its own website:
ICE was created in 2003 through a merger of the investigative and interior enforcement elements of the former U.S. Customs Service and the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
ICE was created in 2003 through a merger
Yup. It was created in the panicked aftermath of 9/11, as was DHS, both with the idea that anti-terrorism was first priority in everything. ICE seems to still be operating with the mindset that they're doing anti-terror operations. Plenty of people at the time warned that the new DHS was likely to turn authoritarian and erode civil liberties.
In reality most immigration violations are like building permit violations or driving with an expired license, and need to be addressed at a similar priority level using similar tools.
"It’s Time to Dismantle the Department of Homeland Security
Even Republicans used to know that this was a mistake.
By Fred Kaplan"
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2026/01/ice-trump-dhs-department-of-homeland-security.html
Do building permit violations rape and murder American citizens? Do expired licenses remit billions of dollars to hostile countries?
Some rapes occur in buildings with code violations. Some person could say if we had knocked them all down, those particular rapes would not have occurred.
Some people with expired licenses also commit rapes. That same person could say if we rounded up everyone with an expired license, those rapes would not have occurred.
That person would be a dumbass, of course, who does not understand cause and effect, or even the definition of rape.
Rape is non-consensual sexual intercourse. No part of the definition depends on the building permit, the driver's license, or the immigration status. They are all equally stupid things to bring up.
"In reality most immigration violations are like building permit violations..."
Like the ones at Surfside condo?
I disagree with that.
Our whole immigration policy is broken - too restrictive in admitting people we need and to unrestrictive in meeting people we do not need.
Some quick fundamentals:
1. We should admit people as follows:
a. People we have obligations towards (ie. Afghans who helped the US during our occupation of Afghanistan). They can remain as long as they do not abuse our hospitality.
b. People who add value to the US (and as soon as we find out they do not add value we should revoke their visas and deport them.)
c. A limited number of refugees who do not abuse our hospitality.
2. Some basics that come from this:
a. You do not add value to the US and should be deported if you are here to add value if:
i. You are indigent and rely on government assistance or charity to survive
ii. There is a preponderance of evidence (NOT PROOF BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT) that you have committed a crime (not counting things like speeding tickets at reasonable speed), are a drug abuser, are an alcoholic, etc.
iii. You are anti-American, anti-Western Civilization, fascist, Nazi, communist, clearly racist, anti-semitic, etc.
iv. Your family who are with you and are part of a package deal are any of these things or likely to be wastes of space (ie. chronic truants).
b. If you are in the US because you are a refugee or because we owe you then standards should be a bit more relaxed. For example, we deport you if you are found guilty of a serious crime, but not for minor stuff or based on a preponderance of the evidence.
3. Getting a visa should be very easy for anyone with a confirmed job offer that is in the top 25 percent of US incomes. Americans at that level can take care of themselves and handle a little competition.
4. For lower paid jobs we should be carefully evaluating if the knock on benefits exceed the cost to lower income American workers. For example, we should definitely have a guest program like Hong Kong, Singapore, GCC nations to bring in domestic workers - they will barely compete with American workers while making life so much easier for so many Americans. On the other hand, it is not so clear that we should be bringing in foreign truck drivers - there are many Americans who want these jobs. Do the benefits from lower logistics costs outweigh the cost of denying these Americans those jobs?
But Somin isn't proposing to break ICE up into its original parts. He's proposing to shut them down entirely and spend the money on something else, with what ICE currently does left undone.
He's proposing to completely end immigration law enforcement, and counting on people to not notice that part of it.
This post is so disconnected from reality I can't even muster the interest to mock it.
The idea is polling in the mid 40s.
That's likely because of Miller's Thug ICE, not ICE per se.
Miller's Thug ICE is the actual ICE we have.
And I don't think the problem just is Miller and Noem ordering an innocuous agency to do bad things, and it will go away with new leadership. They've specifically been hiring people committed to defending "culture" and promoting a warrior mentality. The rank-and-file are now part of the problem.
The war mentality culture can change (it was different before Trump, right?).
Do you think the majority buy into Somin's idea of having the states enforce immigration?
Hasn't Minnesota made it clear that they have no intention of enforcing immigration laws?
No, not for the worst of the worst.
Now, YOU I'll mock.
If you could actually prove that ICE had stopped enforcing immigration laws, it would hugely alienate Trump's base. But you never provide a bit of evidence, because it's just a politically convenient lie.
He's arguing the state doesn't want to enforce immigration laws.
No, but I doubt there is a majority for any particular solution, including what we're doing now. It would need to be packaged and promoted.
If it were me, I wouldn't sell (or organize) it around state enforcing immigration. It would be about strengthening local law enforcement in general. Because local police have a broad mission, I expect most of them would choose to use their new resources for something other than dedicated masked tactical teams roving the streets looking for people without immigration papers.
Therefore, I wouldn't read more than the majority doesn't like Miller's ICE rather than abolishing ICE.
Issue ICE rocket launchers?
ICE has been doing an effective job of enforcing laws that Ilya dislikes. So obviously it must be disbanded...
Do you think what you see going on is law enforcement?
Yes, obviously so.
Like the DEA, often abusively carried out.
It would probably be less abusive if a number of states weren't doing everything in their power, and perhaps some things that aren't legally in their power, to obstruct enforcement of those laws, but, yes, abusively.
But, also yes, law enforcement. It's not just abuse.
Note, I'm not defending the abuse, I hate it. I'm just comprehending why it's happening.
Easy. The next president just fires everyone in ICE.
Why would Vance want to do that?
You think Trump's gonna die?
I'm sorry, sir, but we simply cannot ship you any more tinfoil on credit. Please try to at least retain at least some semblance of alignment with the real world until you are able to settle your account.
Maybe we can come up with some sort of bipartisan compromise. Abolish ICE and the DoE, for example.
You mean DoE, DoEd, or both?
How about DoEd for ICE and DoE for BATFE? Something for everybody.
I'm in.
A purely libertarian approach (pure libertarians are prevalent here as much as unicorns are, even on a blog promoting "often libertarian" content) very well might entail open immigration, but the proposal specifically does not.
He notes, for example:
Abolishing ICE would not end all deportations. State and local authorities could still, in many cases, turn illegal migrants over to the federal government for removal… But abolishing ICE would make deportation much more dependent on state and local cooperation and would empower jurisdictions to make their own choices.
The discretion provided would likely, at least in some places, lead to less immigration enforcement. As a comment notes, that very well might be the best policy. Many communities are upset when long-term locals are targeted, or their gardener is targeted, or thuggish enforcement behavior is used.
Others like that sort of thing. So there is pushback.
I wish the Left cared as much about Laken Riley as they do about people who deliberately enter our country in violation of our immigration laws.
Whenever a black person committed a crime, the Klan used to argue that they sure wished people cared more about (insert victim’s name here) than about Negros being permitted to vote, sit in front of the bus, or whatever.
Every large group of people will contain some criminals. The fact that a single individual member of a group commits a single crime says nothing about the group.
But when people try to bullshit that it does, as the Klan did about African-Americans and Scooter here is doing about immigrants, it says a great deal about the people doing the bullshitting.
Whenever someone uses a gun illegally, the Left likes to claim all firearm owners bear responsibility. I'm just putting the shoe on the other foot.
Which makes you just as bad as them.
So, you're saying you approve of the tactic and, thus, employ it yourself.
Who are the people who have ever done that?
Do you agree with them? If not, why are you echoing them?
"Whenever a black person committed a crime, the Klan used to argue that they sure wished people cared more about (insert victim’s name here) than about Negros being permitted to vote, sit in front of the bus, or whatever."
Is this really true? I think you are lying.
Back in those days people didn't seem to have a problem believing in harshly punishing criminals, black or white, and giving blacks equal rights to whites.
There's at least some logic to it. If you allow people full access to society, their ability to commit crimes is heightened.
As an example, it's a lot harder to stop a black burglar if you can't use sundown laws to remove all blacks from the town before it even gets dark.
I think it’s important to undersdand current opinion and thinking on the MAGA right so we understand what the situation is.
So let me ask you a question, just to help me understand. There is a phrase you can Google or find in the dictionary called “Jim Crow.” Have you ever heard of this phrase? If so, what meaning does it have to you?
You don't understand the 'MAGA right' though. You know none of them, you only have a model in your head built from what you read from your ideologues.
You mean the policy implemented throughout the South by Democrats?
No they didn't.
While putting laws on the books without enforcing them is an option in certain very controversial issues, marijuana being the most recent, I think that there is enough of a consensus that there shoild be some restrictions on immigration (with disagreement as to how many) that I think Professor Somin’s view here is a very minority position.
I think Professor Somin would have a much stronger case arguing for something narrower. Because illegal immigrants do not have the same constitutional protections as citizens, a special policing unit specifically for immigration enforcement does not have to have, and by all accounts currently does not in fact have, either the kind of training or the kimd of sensitivity to individual rights that one would expect of an American law enforcement agency.
I think Professor Somin could make a case that the very existence of a large armed police force that doesn’t abide by and doesn’t know how to abide by constitutional constraints and norms in dealing with citizens creates a risk that it could be sicced on citizens in contravention of their rights.
The currwnt situation illustrates this possibilitu. ICE might for example is currently in some danger of moving from focusing on immigration to focusing on anti-immigration protestors. If this trend continues, it could effectively become a means of paramiltary, extralegal and extrajudicial harassment of Mr. Trump’s political opponents, so that if the local government doesn’t support Mr. Trump or doesn’t do what he says on an issue, ICE could be let loose to basically trash the place.
It coild be argued that to prevent this, all American law enforcement agencies should receive full Police Academy level training including extensive training in constitutional rights and de-escalation methods, and no agency should be permitted to exist whose personnel operate completely outside these norms. Accordingly, it could be argued that immigration enforcement could better and more humanely be done, with less risk to everyone involved and less risk of a wholesale danger to citizens’ constitutional rights, by regular law enforcement used to dealing with amd respecting citizens rather than by a specialized agency operating completely without this level of respect.
I understand this is a far narrower point than the one Professor Somin is trying to make.
Now that you bring it up, the agencies with a special mission tend to be the problematic ones.
CPS
BATFE
ICE
DEA
The common factor is enforcing a law which, by its very nature, doesn't generate people desperate to inform the police the crime took place.
Without those reports, it becomes very hard to enforce a law, the odds of being caught violating it drops a lot. And the effectiveness of deterrence of any law is the product of the odds of being caught times the consequences if you ARE caught.
If you're content to leave it unenforced, this isn't a problem. But if you are trying to enforce it, the temptation is to substitute consequences for certainty of detection, and this generally requires consequences too dire to be constitutional.
So all agencies that enforce such laws either lapse into fake enforcement, or become abusive.
Except the FBI, which is more general, has also been a bad actor.
The problem is that he doesn't WANT something narrower. He's an extremist on this topic, and unapologetically so.
The last thing he wants is an agency that does ICE's job while creating fewer problems, because the problems are the only hope he has of stopping the job from being done.
> ICE might for example is currently in some danger of moving from focusing on immigration to focusing on anti-immigration protestors
There is no indication at all of this.
Then what is ICE doing confronting protestors? How do you explain it?
Letting Ilya into this country was a grievous mistake. He has now dedicated his life to prying the door open for the entire third world.
I'm happy he's here, happy that he teaches new lawyers, happy that he travels the country promoting freedom, and happy that he disturbs the right kind of people. In a better world he'd be on the Supreme Court.
That's what most American Jews do, including most of the people I grew up with. They see any restrictions on immigration as being an attack on the immigration that brought their ancestors to America's shores.
Yes, Jews are overwhelmingly in favor of importing millions of Third World foreigners into the USA, and in keeping non-Jews out of Israel.
The reason for that is that they hate white Christianity for past wrongs, and think that the best way to neuter that threat is to reduce their power.
That is one theory. There could be other contributing factors.
There are millions of non-Jews in Israel. And we stopped "importing" people in 1808.
Only non-Jews who have been grandfathered.
Just as local police, politicians an juries protected the KKK back in the day, local authorities have proven that they cannont be trusted to enforce the law against illegal aliens.
Local authorities have zero obligation to enforce immigration laws. That is a federal responsibility.
Prof. Somin is wrong in his method, but you can abolish ICE and have some other org take over the bits of it's mission that aren't terrorizing people.
I see the usual bigots are using his national origin to try and go at him.
Really telling on themselves as to their real agenda. And it's not the border.
"but you can abolish ICE and have some other org take over the bits of it's mission that aren't terrorizing people."
Sure. But that's not what Somin wants. He wants ICE abolished, and nobody else taking over the mission.
"How to defund law schools" to stop tax dollars from funding Ilya Somin's insanity. Let's see him make an honest living.
There are simply too many illegals in this country for ICE to carry out its mission without using unsavory tactics.
How very fascist of you.
That's right. ICE has a big job, and it is not easy.
I mean, if you follow that thought all the way to its conclusion, you could justify just about anything. Beatings. Concentration camps. Executions (which another poster above suggested, apparently non-ironically!)
If the point of all of this is to scare people into self-deportation... well, maybe that will work? But I personally would not be able to live with myself if I looked at all this heinous shit and said "this is worth it."
It's not worth it. I do actually support limits on immigration, and some level of enforcement of immigration policy. But this is absolutely inhumane, and any person with a shred of morality should be condemning it. Whatever problem your country has with immigration, this is not the way to solve it.
That's fine. You do what you want in you country. Stop whining about what we do in ours.
Oh, bullshit. You could rely on bounties.
You could have a system where the first person including the illegal alien themselves who reported an employer for employing illegal aliens got a substantial bounty. In the case of such a report by an illegal alien, they'd get the money AND a six month pass on deportation.
As long as they kept taking new jobs and reporting the people who hired them, they could stay.
As soon as you instituted such a system, employing an illegal alien would change from a way to save on wages, to a horrible gamble. And illegal aliens, denied jobs, would find living here next to impossible.
Naturally, you'd need to couple this with an actually functioning system for confirming that a potential hire wasn't an illegal alien, use of which would be an absolute defense.
The problem is, this would require Congressional action, and Congress still isn't terribly enthusiastic about enforcing immigration laws. They just can't openly oppose them.
Minnesota is full of sanctuary cities and counties. The idea that transferring ICE funds to state and local police would accomplish anything is ludicrous. State and local authorities are required to not enforce immigration laws.
Not to mention, when anyone state tries to enforce immigration law, people like Somin run to federal court to rule that it's preempted.
He's being disingenuous.
That's right, it is a disingenuous argument for open borders.
Do you live in Minnesota? Then why do you care?
Leave it to the state and local police who won't hold them for pickup when they're already in jail?
(Still amazed by IS's TDS. Or perhaps I missed his corresponding posts about the previous administration.)
Russian Jews have become notorious for their Talmudic Marxist anti-American silly arguments. We need to send Somin back.
Fuck you, Roger.
Not civil, I know, but the only appropriate response.
You're a bigot and an ignoramus, not to mention a fool.
You sound like Somin. He writes whole articles on how everyone who disagrees with him must be ignorant.
Sadly, you consistently prove his point.
This is a bad plan. Transferring its funds to state and local police will not work to enforce immigration law, since many states and cities refuse to do so.
The post author does not make it a secret that he does not actually want those laws strictly enforced, so fair enough. But transferring funds to state and local police for the goal of general crime reduction is simply not the role of the federal government. If California or Houston or Cook County want to spend more money on police, they can do so themselves. The feds giving money to states means strings attached, and it means some compliance officers have to be hired (at the federal level AND at the local level) to make sure all the conditions are being followed and the money is being spent on the right thing.
>Recent events in Minnesota bolster the already strong case for abolishing ICE - and for the plan of doing so by transferring its funds to ordinary state and local police.
No it does not.
Somin, why does the US have to have open borders but you require the US to defend everyone else's?
Once again, we see a failure to comprehend the vast gulf (no, not Gulf) between migration and invasion.
".....ICE's extensive use of force against peaceful protestors..."
----
They are not "peaceful protestors". They are rioting and obstructing LEO's legal operations.
'Abolishing' ICE isn't the tricky part. Finding enough guards for the new prisons to hold the ICE officers and supporters, enough executioners to carry out the tens of thousands of death penalties required by the (inhumane, of course) US laws, and so-on, will be the problem.
Somin looks at Zimbabwe as a success and wants the same for America. Import people with no concept of Western Civilization (or worse, contempt for it) and then watch the collapse. The irony is, of course, that he would be at the top of their murder list. He sounds like the leftist Iranians in 1979. Who were quickly eliminated. When will they ever learn?
Zimbabwe had a white oppressive overclass you seem to be extolling.
Your analogy to Iran similarly makes no sense.
Just seems like an inchoate fear and loathing of nonwhites, with a Birth of the Nation take on what they're like.
Who did Zimbabwe import? And again: the U.S. stopped importing people in 1808.
The question is when do we abolish Somin - from Volokh or even from America?
You can send money to cops, but the cities like Minneapolis are DEFUNDING the police, so what use would it be? Sanctuary cities are seeing massive bleeding of police officers to other jurisditictions that have pro law enforcement policies. Cities like Minneapolis are hundreds short of their legislatively mandated level of officers. How does Somin solve that? The officers get no political support and are told NOT to do the jobs they are hired for. Why does Somin want to protect illegals from being deported?
Keeping the peace in MN at the moment seems mostly about keeping ICE from assaulting protestors.
Somin wants to protect illegals because he wants to replace the American population with millions of Third World migrants.
Just say it Roger:brownpeople!Okay, I will say it. Somin is a Russian Jew who wants to replace American Whites with brown people.
Again: American atheist, not Russian Jew. And while I would love to replace you — a Guatemalan child molester would be an improvement on you — he is not trying to "replace" anyone.
They are not. Your talking points are five years old and false.
You've written some dumb things llllllya but this takes the cake.
No we are not getting rid of ICE but yes we are getting rid of illegal immigrants. Sorry.
Deportation efforts do not target a population with a lower crime rate. Deportation efforts target a population with a 100% crime rate - they all either crossed the boarder illegally or overstayed a visa, which in either case makes them a criminal.
This argument sounds like saying "the rape detectives are fuck ups, lets fire them and transfer the funds to the homicide detectives." Homicide detectives are surely an important cause and may very well be able to do a lot more with more money. And it may be true that the rape detectives are fuck ups, and should be retrained or replaced or reformed in some other way. But that's hardly an argument for shutting down enforcement of rape laws and transferring the funds to enforcement of homicide laws. Rape laws still need enforcing.
Overstaying a visa is not a crime. (Also, the word is "border.")
But immigration laws don't.
> But immigration laws don't.
The millions of Americans who voted for Donald Trump would seem to disagree with you.
What about the more Americans who voted against him?
Every other candidate in the election got fewer votes than Trump. That sure seems like a democratic mandate to me.