The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Transgender Athletics Cases
They were not as combative as I would have expected, and maybe even not 6-3.
I have now finished reading the 250 pages of transcript in Little v. Hecox and West Virginia v. B.P.J. My global reaction was that the Justices were surprisingly not combative. After Skrmetti and Mahmoud last term, I was expecting a much more vigorous and contentious argument. But it was just the opposite. The Justices were surprisingly restrained. I don't think the vote here is 6-3. It might be 7-2, or maybe even 8-1 in favor of the government in both cases. Title IX is different than Title VII, and the Equal Protection issue here is different than the Equal Protection issue in Obergefell.
Perhaps the defining feature was Justice Kagan having a two-hour long discussion with all five lawyers about whether a plaintiff could bring an as-applied challenge for an equal protection claim. This was such a genuine and nerdy discourse. The advocates seemed surprised, and a bit frustrated, with how much time was being devoted to it. I'll talk about this issue later.
Maybe something could be said for the sequencing of the cases. Skrmetti and Mahmoud involved very thorny issues of parental rights to obtain medical treatment and parental rights to opt out of LGBT instruction. But Hecox and B.P.J. involved far simpler Title IX and Equal Protection analyses (putting aside the as-applied stuff for now). I think people genuinely do not understand all the nuances of transgender medicine but anyone who has ever watched a sporting event gets the issues in Hecox and B.P.J. I don't even think this issue is particularly polarizing. This is what Trump would call an 80-20 issue.
If the athletics case had come to the Court before Skrmetti and Mahmoud, the arguments could have been more contentious. Indeed, what if Grimm v. Gloucester County School Board, a bathroom case, was granted before Bostock was decided?
I think of Obergefell in a similar fashion. Thirty years ago, who would have thought that the Supreme Court would find a right to same-sex marriage five years before finding that Title VII bars LGBT discrimination. Sometimes, the Court does things out of order.
Finally, I think we have to account for the changing tides with regard to transgender issues. The public sees these matters far differently than a decade ago. The somewhat sedate arguments yesterday can be traced to the path already laid down.
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"They were not as combative as I would have expected"
Of course not. As a fellow Texan (me formerly) you realize us Texans are exceedingly polite. Especially when we have the upper hand. So when we slip the knife in (like in Dobbs), we go something like Kavanaugh:
"There, there Honey. It's all for the best. Didn't mean to do this. There are other precedents protecting you we'd never overturn. Promise. Shh. Shh. It will all be over soon."
We have more abortions now than prior to Dobbs!! So your knife must have killed a baby!! Lololololololololol!!!
He only likes freedom when comes as permission from the State
I caught a 4 minute snippet of sotomayor questioning one of the states attorneys. Over the course of those 4 mnutes Sotomayor described the holding in 2 or 3 cases and which point the states attorney somewhat bluntly stated that Sotomayor stated that Sotomayor characterization of those case holdings was wrong. It wasnt surprising that Sotomayor would mischaracterize the holding in a case. It was surprising that the states attorney bluntly (though slightly tempered down) that she was wrong.
The phrase "with all due respect" implies that the amount due is close to zero.
The phrase “on the basis of sex” has nothing to do with fucking. 😉
It's nice to know the cases themselves aren't combative, given how hysterical the public discourse about it is.
Those of us in the Reality based community that understand the Science are well aware that biological sex confers inherent advantages in certain sporting events. Biological makes have significantly higher upper body strength, yielding an innate advantage in sports such as swimming.
We are also aware that biological sex isn't 'assigned'; it's observed.
No no no no no.... Didn't you listen to the arguments? The Science says that a trans woman might actually be at a disadvantage in trying to move her bigger male-sized bones with less testosterone and those smaller girl-sized muscles.
I am not making that up. It was actually argued in Little v. Hecox. It's on page 112 of the transcript, complete with a reference to The Science: https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/2025/24-38_bqm2.pdf
It is funny how people invoking the Science are often doing so to discard actual scientific studies without actually reading anything but their conclusion.
perhaps its because much of the "science" is not actually science but advocacy masquerading as science.
I think Justice Thomas will volunteer to check for pee pees and wee wees before an athletic event! So worth the extra $16 trillion in deficit spending to not have one pair of hairy smelly balls in college volleyball!! 😉
You're referring to Hartnett?
A big problem the pro trans women in women sports side has is that they don’t understand competition. So female athletes are super competitive but the actual fans aren’t competitive. So Jill Biden made a huge faux pas when she invited the losing team to the White House. And the reason she did that is because the LSU women’s team refused to let her speak before the championship game because Biden picked a different team to win in his bracket challenge. I’m not joking. So the female basketball players are super competitive but the fans often just like to see a good game and aren’t rooting for a certain team especially outside of a college environment. So I think Jill Biden was offended but I also think she didn’t understand how competitive the girls in girls athletics are.
That was a humorous exchange. Trying to pretend that normal strength, height, weight hormone level differences among individuals somehow justify allowing boys to compete as girls. Might as well argued the 5'8"' 10th grader should play on the girls basketball team because he cant make the boys varsity team.
All so dumb…let the organizations determine who is eligible for competitions. Btw, all male sports are open to females. I think Serena could have been a MLB pitcher if she could have developed a knuckle ball. Pitchers don’t have to hit anymore. The issue is why would a great female athlete ever play baseball when tennis and soccer exist and are very popular with fans?? But a trans woman is free to participate in the men’s division and a woman has even participated in an SEC football game.
I recall that there were two trans "men" competing in the last Olympics, in their correct sex category, with not the slightest fuss made by anybody. At the same time as the two trans* "women" competing in the boxing were causing a real fuss.
*theologically, the boxers were not "trans" ie where the variation from standard sex characteristics is supposed to be in the mind - you have the standard primary and secondary characteristics of your actual sex, save that your "gender identity" is typical of that of the other sex.
Instead they were biological males with "intersex" conditions which presumably because of genital abnormality had led them to be brought up as girls. Which in turn led them to believe quite reasonably that they were girls, although in fact they were not.
Anyway the point is that as you say, usually nobody cares whether females compete in male events because women don't bring an unfair advantage to the party (though I believe there was a case a hundred or so years ago where the men in some sport, I forget which, didn't like an actual woman doing quite well, so they got her banned.) The objection is when it's the other way round.
lol, no. The trans boxers faux controversy was a right wing echo chamber attack on Kamala because her rollout was going so smoothly Republicans needed to start a new news cycle and so they created a #fakenews narrative. They did the same thing right before the election with Biden calling a Trump’s supporter’s rhetoric “garbage” and the right wing echo chamber said Biden was calling half the country “garbage”. The gold medal winner qualified for the 2020 Olympics with no controversy when Trump was president.
Btw, it’s so hilarious that your standard for what constitutes a female is your “opinion”…so you don’t even go by science.
You know another biological thing that confers advantages in certain sports? Height. Weight. Eyesight. The length of your arms. Lung capacity. Hell, let's just say that there are dozens and dozens of ways that your genetics can affect your capacity for sport.
Is it fair that a short person will probably never be a professional basketball player, regardless of how hard they train? No, not really. But sports has never been "fair" in that way, and probably never will be.
As regards this particular question, it is indeed of questionable fairness that the absolute minuscule number of transgender people who also want to be athletes be allowed to compete in sports leagues of the gender they transitioned to. It's not fair! If the numbers of these cases ever creep out of a dozen or so, if transwomen are entering professional sports leagues by the hundreds, we may need to have a reasoned discussion about what to do! But to focus on this issue exclusively while ignoring the much more prominent ways that sports are not fair... well, it's mostly just cover for hating trans people, isn't it?
I understand why politicians harp on about it. They have elections to win, and cynically pushing that Culture War button is a no-brainer: particularly when banning trans kids from sports requires about as much effort - and gets about as much pushback - as establishing the Bear Patrol in that one episode of the Simpsons (which is a great microcosm of this whole issue, by the way). But I don't know why anyone else with half a brain is so desperate to make a mountain out of this molehill.
But that’s why the Biden solution threaded the needle perfectly—we should want middle schoolers jogging and adding a trans girl to the girls cross country team doesn’t harm anyone and in fact it’s good for the vulnerable kid to be on a team and engaging in healthy behavior. So that’s why the blanket bans are so bad because sometimes you are just picking on the most vulnerable kid at a school!?!! WTF??
Well, yeah, it's because politicians know that people freak out about this specific issue, and also that the number of people it negatively affects is tiny. So they get to grandstand about protecting the "sanctity of women's sports" or whatever, while changing absolutely nothing for anyone, except for a few poor kids that get caught in the crossfire of this mess.
It's cynical and disgusting and heartbreaking, but it's something I basically expect at this point. Gay people used to be the punching bags in the culture wars, and now we've moved to trans people. I'm sure that when we've all calmed down about this, we'll find some other minority to punch down on.
I see both sides because women’s sports in America is something great about our society and we should want to protect this great achievement. But at the same time I 100% agree that on some level it’s just more “smear the queer” 2.0 or 3.0 or whatever. But also as someone that supported gay marriage in the 1990s I’m like, can’t we just be happy that Bessent is married to a dude with children before we move on to the next culture war battle??
As someone who is gay and very happily married, my preference is for people to accept and celebrate my identity and union! I'd like the same for my trans friends!
But at the very least, I'd like people to accept that what someone wants to call themselves, what they want to wear, the gender of the person they love, and so on. is nobody's damn business but their own. Government in particular has no business being involved with this, and the only reason I can see for it is base signalling.
Just leave them alone!
But competitive sports is by definition exclusionary. And competitive sports has been an important part of American culture for over a hundred years. Like I said. a non binary individual has already won a gold medal with no controversy because the individual had no problem showing their birth certificate to the IOC. If showing a birth certificate is so bad why did the non binary soccer player do it?? Seems like that would be the time to take a stand.
bloocow2 20 minutes ago
"You know another biological thing that confers advantages in certain sports? Height. Weight. Eyesight. The length of your arms. Lung capacity. Hell, let's just say that there are dozens and dozens of ways that your genetics can affect your capacity for sport."
That is what the exchange that No consequences commented on humorous. Trying to justify all the inherent differences among humans as reasons that boys should be allowed to play on girls sports teams.
The people advocating for men in women's sports are the modern day equivalent of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Biden allowed organizations to ban males from female competitions. Btw, a non woman has already won an Olympic gold medal in women’s soccer on the Canada team. The world didn’t end. Of course the individual was born a female and the nonbinary individual had no problem showing its birth certificate to determine their eligibility. So both sides are being idiots because Biden came up with a solid compromise of no blanket bans but an organization can conclude that individuals born male have an advantage and thus can be excluded.
Btw, a non woman has already won an Olympic gold medal in women’s soccer on the Canada team.
Er no, she's a woman, not a non woman.
The world didn’t end. Of course the individual was born a female
True, and she was also a female before birth and continues to be one now. As will be demonstrated if she wants to have children (and assuming she hasn't had her pipes deconstructed.) She'll need to find a sperm maker to co-operate with, not another egg-maker.
and the nonbinary individual had no problem showing its birth certificate to determine their eligibility.
And why should there be any problem ? She's a woman, she competed in the women's event. Her birth certificate presumably correctly reflects her actual sex. Nothing to see here, move along.
Except well done for being good at soccer. For a girl. Her "nonbinaryness" - ie feeling that she'd be happier as a guy - is no more relevant to her eligibility to compete in the women's soccer tournament than her ability to chug a glass of beer faster than her Dad. In each case it's totally irrelevant.
The people pushing for trans women in women’s sports don’t see a nonbinary individual as a woman like you do. So if showing a birth certificate is fine for them then it should be fine for trans women. Because we’ve already established that women sports isn’t just for women…because a nonbinary person isn’t a woman. So how do we determine eligibility for women’s sports when it is open to more than just women?? Easy, we determine eligibility by sex at birth.
.
Why can't there be male boys, female girls, gays, male girls, female boys leagues?
Let all the male boys compete against male boys.
Female girls against female girls.
Male girls against male girls.
Female boys against female boys.
Etc...
Easy.