The Volokh Conspiracy
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Zaprudering The Minneapolis ICE Video
I'll admit a guilty pleasure. I enjoy watching police dash-cam and body-cam videos on YouTube. More often than not, these videos begin during routine traffic stops but quickly escalate. Once the suspects feels cornered, they will usually take flight. Sometimes they will jump out of the vehicle and flee on foot. Other times, they will take the car out of park, put it into drive, and slam the accelerator. In rare cases, the driver will start driving while the police officer is next to the car, or even leaning into the window. Officers have been seriously injured. These two videos came up with a quick search.
Different law enforcement agencies have different policies with regard to the use of force. As I recall, some police departments allow officers to open fire on a vehicle that is being used as a deadly weapon. Other departments only permit high speed chases. Other departments will just allow the vehicle to drive away.
This background brings me to the shooting yesterday in Minneapolis. I've watch the video from the New York Times over and over again.
The commentators focus on the fact that the driver's wheel was turned to the right, suggesting that she was trying to drive away from the ICE agents. When given a lawful order to stop, it is usually not advised to drive away from law enforcement. But let's put that bit aside for now.
The entire incident lasted a few seconds. Is there any reason to think the agent saw which way the wheels were facing before he opened fire? I am doubtful. I had to watch the video with a frame-by-frame breakdown to figure out the chronology, and direction of the wheels. Think about it this way. The agent would have to simultaneously keep his eyes focused on the wheels (low) and the driver (high). Is it even possible to see both?
To use a sports analogy, it is extremely difficult for a First Base umpire to simultaneously look at both the base (low) and the glove (high). The New York Times discussed this tough job:
Instead, the call is most often made with the two significant elements of the play — the ball in the fielder's glove and the runner's foot on the base — at some distance from each other, far enough apart that the umpire cannot keep both in his line of vision. From the earliest days of their training, umpires are taught how to cope with this: on most infield ground balls, establish a position 15 to 18 feet from the first-base bag and at a right angle to the perceived path of a true throw.
For many plays, where it its not possible to see both, the umpires will watch the bag to see when the reader touches, and listen for the pop when the ball reaches the glove. And even then, well-trained umpires routinely make errors with close plays at first--especially in a noisy stadium where you can't hear the pop. Instant replay exists now to remedy those errors.
The ICE agent in this case likely could not see both the direction of the wheels and the driver. He was only standing a few inches away. He lacked the distance and vantage point to observe both. And we know he was looking at the driver based on where he aimed his gun.
Now the agent likely saw the driver shift the car into drive. For sure, the driver did not keep her hands off the wheel, and would have had to reach for the gear-shift. Indeed, you can see the reverse lights in the back turn off shortly before the officer drew his weapon.
If the agent sees a car a few inches away from him shift into drive, is it reasonable to think he might be a target? In the past, ICE agents have been hit with cars. Would this background be relevant?
Also, much has been made of the fact that the officer did not actually get hit. As I watch the video, he quickly jumped out of the way to avoid contact. This is akin to a baseball pitcher who throws at a batter, but the batter jumps away to avoid contact. Pitchers can still be ejected when there is an intent to plunk the batter that proves unsuccessful.
I realize how volatile this situation is, but we should resist Zaprudering the video, especially where a decision had to be made with imperfect knowledge in a split second.
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I will leave others to fight over the question of the first shot. It seems pretty clear to me that the officer leaned in to take a shot through the windshield instead of moving out of the way, which is what you'd do if you actually thought a car was trying to run you over (shooting the driver doesn't actually stop the car)
I do hope though that the MAGA types eager to tell us about icy roads and self defense and law enforcement gets to shoot people whenever they feel the least threatened, will discuss the second and third shots, through the open side window, when the officer is clearly out of any possible danger.
I guess we'll have to wait to see which bullets killed her. Though the fact that ICE kepta doctor away from her trying to help, probably didn't help.
ETA And if we are going to maunder on with baseball analogies about the difficulty of the cop trying to figure out whether this otherwise peaceful woman is trying to turn her wheels are just run him over let's give a thought to the woman who is being yelled at by cops trying to reach into her car and may not have been perfectly paying attention to where the shooter was either.
I watch a lot of videos on the Police Activity channel on YouTube, so that makes me an expert.
Unlike TV and movies, a pattern that I notice in real life is that once someone initiates an attack on a police officer, the police will reciprocate until the threat is eliminated. They don't take turns like D&D or an RPG.
The "threat" was eliminated when the car moved past the officer. His continuing to shoot through an open window was eliminating the threat by eliminating a person.
Your attempts to equate this to shooting a perpetrator in the back will be unsuccessful. You are presuming the good faith of the driver, just wanting to get away from the federal agents, not do them additional harm. That's not how any of this works. It's pretty clear she wasn't in the wrong place at the wrong time, as some are trying to pretend. She deliberately chose to be there, for political reasons. She was another Ashli Babbit.
Once the driver showed a willingness to harm one agent, he and all other agents assumed they could also be targets with the vehicle in motion. All this was after a reasonable directive to exit the vehicle. The driver's refusal to obey that command indicates a disrespect for any lawful authority. Being "afraid" of the agents because you think they're fascists is not a mitigating defense.
“She deliberately chose to be there, for political reasons.”
Yes, she was at a protest. If a police officer shot random shoppers at a store, you could say with equal truth that they weren’t merely in the wrong place at the wronv time but “deliberately chose to be there, for economic reasons.” They came to shop.
“Once the driver chose a willingness to harm one agent…”
Let’s go back to the shooting shoppers in a store scenario. I think it’s pretty obvious that you can’t infer a “willingness to harm” from intentionally being in a store to shop. Shopping is a lawful activity. People present in a store to shop are there lawfully and it’s unreasonable to infer they are intending to cause harm.
This is similar. In this country, protesting is as normal and lawful an activity as shopping. An official who claims to infer from the mere fact that a person is present at a protest, that that person is intending to commit harm, is actually making a confession. The officer is there to stop the protest by unlawful force because the officer unjustly believes that protesting causes harm.
Protest is fine as long the protester breaks no laws but if they break any laws they are subject to the consequences such as arrest. Once a protester breaks the law by say interfering with law enforcement and the law enforcement officers attempt to detain the protester the protester can not just up and leave. The protester especially can not put the law enforcement officers lives in danger in attempting to leave. The woman in Minnesota was not just randomly shot at. She was attempting to interfere with legal law enforcement by agents of the federal government and allegedly committed multiple felonies. Her actions led to this outcome. FAFO.
Was it her operating a vehicle that was a shooting offense? Or was it an ICE officer being momentarily inconvenienced?
Overtime parking justifies shooting someone? Any offense, any “breaking the law,” actual or perceived, and it’s OK to just shoot?
There’s no evidence to support any claims she committed multiple felonies. The witness accounts and videos certainly show no such thing. She was stopped, perceived the officer did not want her to stop, and attempted to move, very plausibly in order to attempt to comply.
Whether or not she intended to do so (and we'll never know), she recklessly accelerated her vehicle towards a person. No question that's a felony assault. It doesn't answer the question of whether the officer had reasonable justification to shoot - but there's no need to white wash her actions either.
Not under Minnesota law it isn't. Assault in Minnesota requires the intent to inflict bodily harm or cause fear of bodily harm. So you can't handwave away the "whether or not she intended to do so." Recklessness is not the standard for assault.
The most she could possibly be charged with under Minnesota law if she wasn't intending that (and, of course, if she had lived) is criminal vehicle operation — a misdemeanor — and only if the ICE agent actually suffered a bodily injury.
Why do you believe she was blocking the road?
It's been established that she was intentionally impeding the officers.
When we think about this killing, it's important to think about what the killer thought and when he thought it. People who have been in this kind of situation--an obviously predictable situation--know what the killer thought. Even the average hunter knows what the killer thought.
The killer's decision--not only to take that shot, but, specifically, to kill--wasn't made (as Blackman misrepresents) "in a split second" any more than most other hunters' shots are the result of a split-second decision.
The killer's decision to take that shot--his decision to kill--was made long before he killed. His decision was made even long before he decided to stand in front of that car. His decision was a decision that is made routinely (by law enforcement officers) far in advance of the shot by officers who make the decision to stand in front of cars. That's why they stand in front of cars.
Monday morning quarterback rubbish.
The cop likely had no idea who else might have been in danger. Who might be behind or to the side of him. This all happened within a couple of seconds. Fucking layman commenters think cops somehow turn into Doctor Strange and are able to stop time and meticulously analyze everything about a situation.
Let's run some hypothetical situations by you, and see what your response is.
A. police officer corners an individual in an alley and demands they halt. The individual needs to get by the police officer to escape. In order to help accomplish this, the individual pulls out a handgun and fires towards the officer.
A1. Can the police officer respond with deadly force? Why or why not?
B. The police officer has the option in the moment to either draw their gun and fire, then dodge behind a nearby wall, or dodge behind a wall, then potentially return fire.
B1. Are there any circumstances in which the police officer would be better served to draw and return fire, before dodging?
B2. If the police officer dodges behind a wall, they are momentarily out of danger. Can they still respond with deadly force? Why or why not?
C. The individual manages to rush the officer and get past them, still holding the handgun. They are not firing at the officer anymore.
C1. Can the officer use deadly force to stop them, even if they are not currently firing at the officer? Why or why not?
Though the fact that ICE kepta doctor away from her trying to help, probably didn't help.
That might as well be murder. I don't know if he could have saved her, but they sure as hell didn't, either.
Botaglove, you're right and Blackman is obviously (absurdly) wrong. The decision to take that shot wasn't made (as Blackman misrepresented) "in a split second." That decision to take that shot was made long before that second occurred. That decision was made even long before that officer decided to stand in front of that car. It's a decision that is routinely made far in advance by officers who make the decision to stand in front of cars.
"If the agent sees a car a few inches away from him shift into drive, is it reasonable to think he might be a target? In the past, ICE agents have been hit with cars. Would this background be relevant?"
A few months ago, this same agent was dragged 300ft by a car when he was executing a warrant. He was injured and required 33 stitches. So yeah, that background may be relevant.
Is that why he shot her through the side window? Revenge against a world of bad drivers?
Something like 33 stitches say vehicular manslaughter doesn't stop being a threat just because you are currently lateral to a vehicle driven by a homicidal maniac.
How would this shooter get stitches standing to the side of the car and shooting through an open window?
As for homicidal maniac, the only homicide here was committed by the shooter, not the nice woman, mother, poet and devoted Christian.
People usually get stitches from medical providers, usually when they are sitting still, rather than while in the middle of active self-defense. What case(s) are you asking about?
The only homicidal maniac here is the one who ended up dead -- the dedicated antifa pest and domestic terrorist. She got an unfortunate but foreseeable result of attempted homicide.
Domestic terrorist now? Are you the ghost of Kristi Noem's dead dog or something.
Quit making shit up. Noem had no right to make such an absurd claim.
What's next: you going to say Donald Trump's comment that the agent was taken to the hospital and is lucky to have survived being run over is truthful too?? You do know we can all watch the same videos, right???
I am more concerned with the feds initially agreeing to a joint investigation with MN state authorities and now saying they won't. Perhaps they don't feel as strongly as the MAGA contingent here that the optics of this shooting and the administration's dumb ass comments are good for them?
The agent went to the hospital...hahaha. Right. Did he pinch his finger unloading rounds into the girls face? Did the possibility of being bumped at like 1mph by a car require an xray??
You missed your chance to blame Laken Riley for what she wore. It's just a few comments down.
Eat a dick, Michael P. If I wanted to know what this administration's propaganda was, I would watch Fox News. You don't need to endlessly repeat it. We are already exposed to it.
Prove she is a domestic terrorist. You called her it, so back it up. Prove the officer required hospitalization. Prove he is lucky to have survived being 'run over.' Prove anything other than you being a relay operator for govt propaganda; which we already know to be true.
I will wait. Bring receipts or STFU.
Prove she needed to illegally block traffic and interfere with federal law enforcement agents doing their jobs. Prove she needed to flee arrest. Prove she needed to try to run over an ICE agent.
Then we can start taking about what to prove about the following events.
Any comment on Trump blatantly lying about the facts in this case?
Why do you call the front windshield the side window? We have all seen the photos.
Botaglove 5 hours ago
"Is that why he shot her through the side window? Revenge against a world of bad drivers?"
You realize there is no physical evidence of a bullet through the side window - since it was rolled down!
You are going to be stuck with other forensic evidence with will be inconclusive sicne we will have to know the position of the victim which is going to be difficult to establish.
Even if the agent shot through the side window it doesn't matter. The fact is that the woman's actions created a dangerous situation for the ICE agents. Even if she had turned right she was still accelerating on an icy street full of ICE agents, had actually hit one, was attempting to flee law enforcement officers and could easily have turned back left in seconds. Her illegal actions created the situation and she has paid the cost.
Perhaps he should have retired from the thug life the FIRST time he got injured trying to abduct someone, instead of escalating from kidnapping to murder.
Exactly. If he is too traumatized around moving cars to think clearly he shouldn't be out on the street with a gun.
Being attacked by domestic terrorists does not make one a thug.
Some people like Thomas Knapp felt Laken Riley deserved to be raped and murdered by an illegal.
We’ve already covered this—if a Cuban asylum seeker rapes a woman in Miami then it’s ok because Cubans that become American citizens are more likely to vote Republican.
People like Thomas Knapp think (feelings have nothing to do with it) that no one should be raped, and that if someone is their rapist should be dealt with harshly. What side of a Very Special Importan Line on the Ground the rapist was born on is irrelevant to that.
If said previous incident may have affected his thoughts and actions, what the holy hell was he doing on a similar assignment?
I think a big issue is that cops need to stop standing on front of and behind vehicles. They may think standing in front will stop the suspect from fleeing but it's only going to stop those with no intention of fleeing anyway.
You get someone who DGAF or is panicking and this is what happens.
Yeah, why do police want to be out on the streets anyway?
Your comment is a declaration that this lady was a domestic terrorist -- the intention of her behavior was to change the law enforcement policies of US governments.
Is English your first (or second, third, or even fourth) language? His comment was nothing remotely about what the woman's intentions were.
Why would he stand and shoot instead of trying to get out of the way?
Why would someone walk and chew bubble gum at the same time? (I mean, maybe that's beyond your capacity, but let's talk in general.)
It kind of looks like he did both.
How did I know Blackman would be the one to defend this? I guess the same way I knew the sun would rise in the east.
I've defended, and do defend, civil lawsuits involving officers, detention officers, highway patrol, etc. The lady should not have attempted to flee. I tell my kids, comply. We can deal with criminal charges, detainment, etc, but being dead we can't fix. And being dead is a pretty frequent result.
The officer had NO business raising his weapon, let alone firing it while literally standing in front of the vehicle. He 100% could have stepped aside, as seen by the fact he did actually step aside. This was a bad shoot. He should face the consequences.
+1
You should consider another line of business. Blackman would be the one to defend this, because it's easily defensible. Unfortunate, sad, but absolutely defensible.
He didn't step aside because there were other agents there, and if she was willing to use her car to ram one of them, him, she was more than capable of doing the same to others.
You're probably one of those who think police should only shoot to wound, not kill.
It's a shame that these incidents become immediately polarized to such exteme positions--one side screaming murder and the other side screaming complete justification based on self-defense. Maybe this is just bad policing. The officer should not have put himself in this position and should not have used deadly force given the circumstances (e.g., his ability to simply step aside or not put himself in front of the car to begin with). Yes, "a decision had to be made with imperfect knowledge in a split second," but he made the wrong one (and probably put himself unnecessarily in harms way to being with, which was not such a split-second decision [he was filming the car as he walked around it]). I don't think the officer should be charged criminally; but he should be disciplined and perhaps terminated. He made an error in judgment that resulted in someone's death.
Blame the victim harder.
The domestic terrorist was the one who made bad choices here, and chose to aggravate them grievously rather than face the consequences of her crimes.
Did I suggest that the driver made good choices? I think her bad choices were foreseeable in plenty of time to avoid any risk to the officers. And, who, exactly, do you think is the victim?
You mean, they should have anticipated her illegally driving away from an arrest, and preemptively gotten out of her way? That, too, seems a bit much.
I am not sure anyone was arresting her or that her driving away would have been illegal (putting aside the safety of the officer in front). But in any event, yes, when she put the car in reverse, it was pretty clear what she was doing. And the officer put himself in front of the car, and easily could have moved aside rather than shoot her. I seriously doubt she even knew he was there (not that that is relevant to whether he feared for his safety).
These people are too far gone. For years these exact same people defended Dick Cheney and right when he endorsed the wrong candidate they rejected everything they had believed for over 20 years. My advice is focus on winning in 2026 and 2028 because you can’t reason with these people and it’s been like this since the late 1990s. So Clinton was clearly a near great president but they believed he should have been removed. Trump in his first term was average at best but they pretended he was great and so why would we ever remove a president with his amazing record?!? Well you wanted to remove Clinton!!
This. They only deserve scorn and mockery at this point.
"I seriously doubt she even knew he was there"
You are actually strictly liable as a driver to know what's in front of you. Are you suggesting that she put the car into drive while looking backwards over her shoulder? Knowing there were people close by?
That would be even worse.
I'm suggesting she was probably focused on the ICE officers trying to open her side door. Again, I am not excusing her from "liability." I just don't think she was intentionally trying to run anyone over.
I don't think she was intentionally trying to run anybody over, either. The problem was that she wasn't intentionally trying to NOT run anybody over, either, or else she'd have stayed put.
She was recklessly indifferent.
So had he shot another agent or passersby then he would be strictly liable?? Because that’s almost what happened when nobody was in danger of anything and then he killed a woman and put other lives at risk with his reckless behavior.
He put himself in front of the car, because they had already ordered her out of the car. You try that the next time you are pulled over by a cop on the road. You're not allowed to just drive away. Or not pull over.
Just a side note. There is NO law officer training that says, to prevent a vehicle from moving forward, step in front of the vehicle. None. The training is the exact opposite—never endanger your own life by placing your body in a vehicle's path.
And while there are penalties under law for ignoring police direction to stop or otherwise attempting to evade, those penalties do not include immediate summary execution at the discretion of the involved officer.
The last point is the reason why they’ve decided to start calling the lead-footed poet a “domestic terrorist”.
Describing the driver as a "domestic terrorist" is an admission that one is a completely brainless Trump cultist.
When cops pull over a driver in a normal traffic stop, do they stand in front of the car they just pulled over? Or do they stand to the side of, or behind, that car?
Yes, you suggested that by only blaming the ICE agent for making allegedly bad decisions.
Oh, come on. I don't think she's innocent by any means, she should have just left the car in park, but "domestic terrorist" is really over the top.
Thank you. This is really my point. Michael P can think this was a good shoot, but something tells me that if he really believed that, he wouldn't feel the need to smear the woman with labels like domestic terrorist, antifa, paid agitator, etc. And all of that is irrelevant anyway.
This is just like the first Trump impeachment in which Trump released the transcript which they believed exonerated him and made Vindman irrelevant…and yet they still attempted to tar Vindman!! So if you think Trump did nothing wrong why do you care that Vindman is just repeating information that can be gleaned from reading the transcript Trump released??
Btw, where are McGahn and Leo in this administration?? I thought the commenters here thought those two guys were the greatest judge selectors in the history of America and yet I haven’t heard about them this past year??
Because Vindman was wrong. He doesn't get to set US foreign policy, or claim whistleblower protection (victimhood) by laundering his political accusations through another person. He was still a commissioned military officer when pulling all this crap.
All my love,
A Never Trumper who thinks Trump was unfit for office, never voted for him, but also the Ukraine impeachment was bullshit. Especially in light of the subsequent games the Biden administration played slow walking weapons deliveries in the furtherance of their stupid managed escalation policy.
Trump released the transcript…everything Vindman said turned out to be true. Apparently you believe the transcript made Trump look unethical otherwise you would believe Trump tricked Vindman into forcing the release of a transcript that made Biden look bad.
Biden played Putin’s asinine invasion of Ukraine perfectly and Ukraine ended up degrading Russia’s military and America ended up energy dominant as Putin inadvertently turbocharged the LNG market. Republicans were the party that came to believe Putin wasn’t that bad after he invaded another country!?! McCain and Graham looked prescient and then you wanted to stop sending Ukraine lethal aid because Putin made you pee pee your panties!! 😉
The statutory definition for domestic terrorism can be really easy to meet in this kind of case, especially when people like the dumb pro-antifa commenters here let the mask slip about the intent to influence law enforcement policy.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331#5
It cannot. Can you read? The statute doesn't say "the intent to influence law enforcement policy." It requires the intent "(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion".
Terrorists make attacks on the population at large, as punishment for going along with the powers that be, to teach them a lesson.
Which side is closer to terrorist behavior?
Here's a transcript of the NYT video analysis. It shows she did not hit the officer.
"On Wednesday in Minneapolis, a federal agent fatally shot a motorist, 37-year-old Renee Nicole Good. Trump administration officials said these were “defensive shots” fired because the officer was being run over. But our analysis of bystander footage, filmed from different angles, appears to show the agent was not in the path of the victim’s SUV when he fired three shots at close range. Here’s how events unfolded. Moments before the shooting, the victim’s maroon SUV is stopped in the middle of the street. Multiple unmarked federal vehicles are idling nearby. Secretary Noem alleged the motorist “was blocking the officers in.” Bystanders are blowing whistles and yelling at federal agents. Then, federal vehicles start moving toward the maroon SUV with sirens and lights blaring. A federal agent films the scene on his phone. The driver rolls forward slightly, turning left, then stops and waves for others to go ahead. Two agents exit this silver pickup and walk toward the vehicle. Moments later, shots are fired. Let’s look at the scene again more closely. This is the agent who shoots the driver. He walks around the car filming and disappears from view. Other agents pull up and order the driver to exit her vehicle. One of them grabs at the door handle and reaches inside. The SUV reverses, then turns right, apparently attempting to leave. At the same time, the agent filming crosses toward the left of the vehicle and grabs his gun. He opens fire on the motorist and continues shooting as she drives past. The moment the agent fires, he is standing here to the left of the SUV and the wheels are pointing to the right away from the agent. This appears to conflict with allegations that the SUV was ramming or about to ram the officer. President Trump and others said the federal agent was hit by the SUV, often pointing to another video filmed from a different angle. And it’s true that at this moment, in this grainy, low-resolution footage, it does look like the agent is being struck by the SUV. But when we synchronize it with the first clip, we can see the agent is not being run over. In fact, his feet are positioned away from the SUV. The SUV crashes into a white car parked down the road. A bystander runs toward the collision. The federal agents on scene do not appear to rush to provide emergency medical care. Eventually, the agent who shot the motorist approaches the vehicle. Seconds later, he turns back around and tells his colleagues to call 911. Agents blocked several bystanders who attempt to provide medical care, including one who identifies himself as a physician. At the same time, several agents, including the agent who opened fire, get in their vehicles and drive off, apparently altering the active crime scene."
I forget, how long did the NYT push the "hands up, don't shoot" myth? (Their public editor eventually apologized for the errors, but that was a different time, when they actually tried to be responsible journalists.)
I forget, where does it say that agents should flee the scene after such a shooting? Or stop a physician from attending to the injured party?
That's a retarded argument. The glove bot implied that we should trust that transcript because of the source. It's an unreliable source. It has nothing to do with whatever dumb whatabout you attempted.
Ah, now you don't like whatabouts. Let's see if you can manage to avoid them going forward.
Your inability to argue the actual substance, or even understand one simple sentence from a short comment, is noted.
Oh, I am perfectly able to, I chose not to, because the idiocy of your comment was so self-evident that no further comment was needed.
Michael P - Its not an "unreliable source" - Its a flat piece of shit with no semblance of what actually happened.
SRG2 makes an idiot of himself relying on such BS
The NYT description of the event is absolute BS - Compare and contrast the video with the NYT alleged description.
Look, bookkeeper_joe makes another substance free comment! Other right wing commenters here, point — however unconvincingly — to various parts of the video to explain what they think happened. bookkeeper_joe isn't capable of saying anything other than "it's BS." Ever. On any topic.
Having watched the video and read the NYT version of the event - T
A serious question is whether the person writing the NYT version of the event had even seen a video of the event? the NYT version doesnt even remotely resemble the event.
"And it’s true that at this moment, in this grainy, low-resolution footage, it does look like the agent is being struck by the SUV. But when we synchronize it with the first clip, we can see the agent is not being run over. In fact, his feet are positioned away from the SUV."
You can clearly see in the video from the front the impact to the officer to his chest from the SUV, and it looks to be about exactly when he shot.
His feet are not run over, but he is struck.
And the first video shows a half second before he is struck her wheels are pointing forward. A half second later he is struck in the chest by the corner of the SUV as she cranks the wheel right while he is shooting her.
The Times shifting from "struck" to the question of where his feet were and whether he was run over is just trying to muddy the waters, and doesn't refute the fact her vehicle struck him at the exact fraction of a second he shot her, regardless of the direction her wheels were pointed at that exact fraction of a second.
We are all theorizing ahead of the evidence. I expect that there will be audio and video from some or all of the agents, and from bystanders and/or fixed cameras. We will also track the trajectory of shot from the bullet hole in the front windshield, as well as any other bullet holes, and the wound(s) in the victim. We're now in the "hands up! don't shoot" stage.
Here's the problem with your expectation "that there will be audio and video from some or all of the agents . . ." The FBI has announced that they will conduct the investigation, and that the state will not be permitted to participate. Is there anyone in the federal government less trustworthy and more incompetent than Bondi and Patel? By the time they're done screwing this up, they'll have MAGA and the Trump cultists believing that Renee Good single-handedly planned and executed the events of 9/11.
In an move that will only help, the FBI has excluded state investigators and law enforcement from access to evidence. Nothing like a little cover up to help fuel the fires.
This is a terrible decision. I don't even understand how they can refuse MN state authorities from investigating a MN resident being shot in the face on a MN street from investigating??
ICE doesn't have its own coroner/medical examiner, do they? This decision is just going to make things way worse.
ICE needs to GTFO of the midwest as its getting more and more probable that the next ICE involved shooting is going to be one of them on the receiving end. They bring chaos wherever they go and nobody is safer for it.
MN police are accountable to a governor who called this federal agency the Gestapo. He probably shouldn't have perverted their incentives like that.
You can't see it in the NYT video because there's another officer obstructing the view, but it looks kind of like he did get hit (side-swiped, really) from another angle:
https://x.com/Timcast/status/2008975472391323896?s=20
But there's also this angle:
https://youtu.be/FvhoR1DQhLg?si=32iWe8ys7lii6pVc
It at least brushed him, but only because he dodged it. If he's stood his ground, he'd have been run over.
The NY Times synced up the videos in a way that makes it fairly clear that it didn't hit him. I wouldn't say 100% or anything. But again, isn't the quesiton whether he could have just moved instead of shooting? Do you think it is ideal for an officer in this situation to use deadly force if he could avoid any risk otherwise?
Only if you've got more than half a second to make that decision while a vehicle is coming toward you.
Either way he has to move. Shooting her meant he would be more likely to be run over if she was aiming towards him. You can’t be this stupid??
He may have been dumb, but IIRC from discussions on this web site, the SC said courts are not in the business of second guessing split second decisions.
She didn't even look like she was blocking anything. She saw sirens and waved them through, apparently deliberately not getting in the way. Then another vehicle pulled up to arrest her.
Is this a correct statement of the larger picture? I don't know yet.
Not sure what you mean. He had enough time to step aside, which is evidenced by the fact that he did, in fact, move aside even while shooting. And I am not sure what shooting the driver did to avoid his risk of getting hit. If anything, it increased it (not to mention the increased risk his shooting caused to his fellow officers).
And she’s in the road where it is perfectly legal to drive. Not on a sidewalk or somewhere that could potentially put others at risk. So a DUI suspect attempting to get away could put others at risk. Or someone pulled over for violent behavior. So I can think of situations where even a fleeing driver that isn’t threatening the officers could pose a danger to others…but that didn’t happen here. Also if you have the vehicle and physical description of a DUI suspect that runs away on foot then just let them because cops shouldn’t be forced to deal with that behavior and by having a warrant out for their arrest they will end up in much more serious trouble that the DA can easily get a plea deal and waste less time and resources.
Yes. The car was inches away.
Would shooting the driver cause it to miraculously stop instantaneously? Isn't the time spent shooting better used getting out of the way?
Given my druthers, I'd have prioritized getting out of the way over aiming and firing. But, given my druthers, I wouldn't be in law enforcement...
Fair point. But the question is wouldn't you prefer that law enforcement prioritized getting out of the way over aiming and firing in this situation. She does not appear to have been a threat to anyone else; it isn't clear that they were trying to effectuate an arrest, but even if they were, it does not appear that there was some immediate need for that. Get out of the way, get her license plate, and arrest her later.
Damn, Brett. An expert on anything unless convenient, huh?
Look, I like criticizing Brett as much as the next person, but take the W here. His statement was pretty reasonable, and he's been relatively sane on this whole discussion. He's rejected the "domestic terrorism" and other silliness, and has argued that he thinks that at least some of the shots were unjustified. That practically makes him Antifa when compared with the Trump acolytes here.
No, he placed himself in front a vehicle that was clearly on the move. Btw, he almost shot another agent!! The guy is clearly a reckless idiot because he apparently behaved like this before and didn’t learn from his mistake.
Her focus was on the officer grabbing her through the window. The agent that shot her placed himself in front of the moving vehicle when the woman probably didn’t even see him because so much was going on at her side. By shooting her he actually made it more likely he would be hit if that is what she was aiming to do because he shot her and the vehicle ended up smashing into another vehicle.
Your defense is really that she was accelerating (quickly) without being able to see where she was driving or what she was pointing her vehicle at?
I don't think you are helping the cause.
That’s because you are a moron!!! She was in a moving vehicle on the road and she knew where the other vehicles were on the road…not where some guy who was quickly moving was when she was focused on the guy grabbing her through her window. Thanks for reminding me that you and all of the other Republican commenters here are dumbasses!! Pence/Palin 2028!! 😉
"My client ignored a pedestrian who was legally present" is an admission to reckless driving, not an exemption from such liability.
Nope, he placed himself in front of the moving vehicle. And he could have easily moved to the side but chose to shoot her. So what he did was dumb but not suicidal because he easily moved to the side while shooting. But we’ve established that you are a moron and so I’m being dumb even engaging with you.
A pedestrian who was legally present? You think the guy was in a crosswalk?
The defense is that she had to make a split second decision and so shouldn't be second-guessed by all the commenters here from the safety of their armchairs.
So no need to fire his gun, therefore.
She should have gone “Back, and to the Left”
Good thing Trump won so we don’t have any more protests. Isn’t that a reason you voted for Trump?? So Americans don’t protest like they did when Trump was president the last time??
Frank, do you think she sprayed like Charlie Kirk from those shots?
Probably, the Brain has a pretty profuse blood supply(Supplied by 2 Carotids, 2 Vertebrals, and drained by the Sinuses (Brains equivalent of Veins). Yours being the exception, running on pure Shit.
Frank
With a capital S!
“I'll admit a guilty pleasure. I enjoy watching police dash-cam and body-cam videos on YouTube.”
Do you have a violence fetish or some kind of personality disorder? WTF is this?
The ICE goons created this situation. She was waiving for them to drive around her. Instead they escalated the situation for no reason, one going straight to trying to open her door, the other placing himself in front of the car. That unnecessary escalation led to what happened next, a civilian panicking. They are fully responsible for what happened.
Intentional impeding federal law enforcement is how ICE created the situation?
How is waving for a car to drive past you intentionally impeding anything?
She was waving to the ICE vehicles to drive past her?
She was waving at all vehicles to drive past her.
Our future president has spoken. The shooter was a hero and deserves our thoughts and prayers and perhaps a medal of some sort
JD Vance: "It was a legitimate law enforcement operation. We were going door to door to try to find criminal illegal aliens and deport them from the United States ... say a prayer for that agent ... he deserves a debt of gratitude."
That combination of words alone should disqualify him from any office in a free country.
If the feds want to do law enforcement, they need to have local PD handling things like traffic control. I mean, I don't want to say that icemen or whatever alphabet group assisting them happens to be unprofessional... just that they seem to have a distinct lack of knowledge and/or training. Or maybe fed officers love headlights so much they try to get in front of cars because it feels natural to them.
Since Blackman likes body cam vids on youtube, here's a perfect example of why cops take cover and minimize crossfire (*and why you might want to leave the feds at hq)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiBzl88dQYo&t=569s
In short, the agent in Minneapolis should never have been in front of the car, he had a HIGH probability of hitting one of his coworkers and should not be allowed on the streets until administrative review of his conduct can be performed.
Hm, how would that have worked in the past? I imagine relying on local police to suppress Jim Crow might have been sporty.
Luckily Brett, we live in current times with modern police training and evaluation. I don't know how any of this would apply or "worked" during Jim Crow or any other era in time. It probably would have been a real hoot during horse and buggy felony stops. 🙂
“Or maybe fed officers love headlights so much they try to get in front of cars because it feels natural to them.”
Legit lol.
And if local PD won't handle things like traffic control due to sanctuary state policies?
What?
She should have gotten the Bulletproof Windshield option
Her window was open and she was probably killed by the shot through the open window from the side. Maybe he thought her vehicle was an EV that could do the “crab walk”. A vehicle that can do the crab walk is unnatural just like a white woman having sex with a Black man!! EVs should be illegal just like miscegenation!! But white male slave owners should be allowed to rape black slaves both male and female!! #MAGA!!
As details emerge more questions arise.
It has become obvious some of Good's defenders have been caught lying and the MSM has been distorting Good's image. Good was initially described as a mother of three. It turns out she has two older children by her first husband and they divorced and a third child by her second husband who died. It seems the passenger in the car was her "wife" (the passenger has described Good as being her wife but it not clear if the passenger was a female at birth or is trans). Point is Good may have been a mother of three but a lot of folks would not have described her that way.
As for the passenger (whatever her preferred pronoun is) she was filming the incident as it happened and the FBI now has the camera and is assessing its contents. This assessment is not just for the shooting incident but for what happened earlier in the day as Kristi has claimed Good and her partner had been "stalking and impeding" ICE earlier in the day. The FBI is also looking into Good and her "wife"'s phone records to see where they were in relation to other ICE activities as well as coordination with local groups who watch for ICE operations and report the location of these ICE operations to protestors. The implication is this is not the first time Good/wife had encounters with ICE on the day of the shooting. Not to mention Waltz/Ellison have described Good as a "legal observer" documenting ICE operations.
Good's mother has described Good as an innocent bystander trying to hurry home which ignores the fact that not only was she blocking the road but involved in what ever it is that a "legal observer" does. Good could have easily not stopped and parked crossways in the road and avoided any confrontation with ICE. Instead she seems to being trying to impede ICE operations all day long.
My biggest takeaway is if someone drives around as a legal observer (whatever that is) impeding ICE operations and when confronted about it ignores ICE officers investigating and drives at least in the general direction of an ICE officer don't expect a happy ending.
“Good's image. Good was initially described as a mother of three. It turns out she has two older children by her first husband and they divorced and a third child by her second husband who died.” “ Point is Good may have been a mother of three but a lot of folks would not have described her that way.”
Her older kids are 15 and 12. WTF are you talking about?
Her children are not the point of the story and should not be the point of the story.
interjecting the children is nothing more than an attempt to distract from her intentionally impeding federal law enforcement.
Lets leave the kids out of the story
I feel sorry for the kids, but maybe now they won't be raised by a fatally stupid, homicidally maniacal domestic terrorist.
I don’t think you feel sorry at all.
That's only because you don't think.
I’ve put as much thought into it as you did when you declared her a “homicidally maniacal.”
Like if you really believed that, you would fly out to Minnesota, and go reassure her kids, who you apparently feel sorry for, that it’s actually good their homicidally maniacal mother is dead. But you wouldn’t be willing to do it, because 1) you don’t care about her kids 2) you don’t actually believe the things you type.
I can't tell if you are being willfully unreasonable or really are phenomenally stupid.
Normal people do not fly across the country to try to act as substitute parents for random orphans.
“Normal people”
Ha, it thinks it’s normal!
I’m being about as reasonable as you’re being declaring that 1) you care about her kids 2) that’s she was a homicidal maniac.
So to you the only way for him demonstrate care is to fly to MN to comfort kids he doesn't know and who don't know him?
You're not flying there to do that, so you must not care. Hell, 350M in the US aren't doing that. I guess no one cares. Not you, not me, not him, not anyone posting here who isn't flying to MN right now.
Are you really this fucking stupid?
Apparently, yes, he is that fucking stupid. Even after I point out that it's a fucking stupid theory.
He's also too fucking psychopathic to understand that normal people can (and do!) feel sorry for kids when their parents end up as fatally stupid, homicidally maniacal domestic terrorists. The kids didn't choose that situation, didn't have any control over it, and end up without a parent because of it.
I also feel sorry for the kind of person who honestly thinks the only way to truly feel sorry for a kid is to act like a creep by traveling across the country to become (non-sexually) intimate with an unrelated, underage minor -- and even moreso when an effort to do that would almost certainly fail, and most near-successes would land one on a watchlist for perverts.
But I don't feel sorry for pieces of shit who pretend to be that sorry kind of idiot in order to perform political outrage. Even if they're fucking morons as part of the package.
The way to demonstrate he cares is to stop defaming their mom by claiming she’s a homicidal maniac. You’re lying about their mom. That’s not showing care. I’m just pointing out he’s also a pussy who does have the courage to stand by his lies.
“ I also feel sorry for the kind of person who honestly thinks the only way to truly feel sorry for a kid is to act like a creep by traveling across the country to become (non-sexually) intimate with an unrelated, underage minor -- and even moreso when an effort to do that would almost certainly fail, and most near-successes would land one on a watchlist for perverts.”
Imagine being such a freak you wrote this paragraph. I don’t need to prove I feel bad by consoling the victims because I’m not fucking lying about their mom like you are.
You are a liar Michael P. You created an entire scenario in your head where the women with fucking stuffed animals in the glove box is a homicidal maniax to justify your bloodlust.
But here’s the thing: out-side of right-wing fever swamps: everyone thinks you’re a freak. And deep down you know it too. Not only would you never dare say what you’re saying about Ms Good to her family I bet you wouldn’t even say it to your friends or family or coworkers.
Seriously: tell your coworkers you think those kids are better off because their homicidal maniac mom is dead. Tell them it’s because you care oh so much about them. Have the courage of your convictions.
One more thing: Michael p is among the most literal minded dolts I have ever seen in my life. Bey he got straight Fs in English for an inability to engage with figurative language.
Very Smert Law Flunking Guy now pretends that he was merely acting like an absolute moron. Because apparently that was the most intelligent way he could engage with what I said. Truly scintillating.
Sorry, you don’t get to decide what counts as the “point” of the “story.” This was a human life that didn’t just pop into existence right before the shooting. She had a whole life that included family and friends and people are going to talk about that, whether you want them to or not. Whether it makes you uncomfortable or not. What you think is the point is irrelevant. Her life, like any life, was something far beyond what you think is important at any given moment.
Pence/Palin 2028! PP!! 😉
America's gun culture is so scary to me. Law enforcement people in Australia have guns, but probably wouldn't even have them out in this kind of situation. And if they did, the first instinct upon seeing a car maybe/maybe not accelerating towards them would not be "start blasting".
I've no idea what the woman was trying to do. But this did not need to end in her death, and I feel like it wouldn't have in just about any other developed nation. Hell, people in many developing nations have more sense than this.
Exactly, just keep in mind this ICE agent was probably looking for trouble because he knows he’s armed and in this instance he figured the woman wasn’t. Unfortunately liberals and progressives should be arming up right now and being locked and loaded and learning all of the laws surrounding self-defense…because Republicans want to exterminate Democrats right now because Biden dared to do a better job than Trump and actually made America great again relatively quickly after the 2020 dumpster fire. And Trump’s two biggest achievements, surrendering to the Taliban and the super safe and more than effective enough Covid vaccine, are considered failures by his supporters!?!
"Exactly, just keep in mind this ICE agent was probably looking for trouble because he knows he’s armed and in this instance he figured the woman wasn’t."
What a load of crap. The ICE agent was involved in a legit ICE operation to deport illegal aliens and trying to clear the road of a vehicle blocking the road so ICE vehicles could transport illegal aliens to detention centers. Good was deliberately obstructing the road and when ICE tried to clear the obstruction Good drove her vehicle towards an ICE agent. She was the one looking for trouble.
You supported sacrificing 7000 American soldiers to slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims…you are what is wrong with America this century.
MAGA can't even get their stories straight. Was ICE trying to order her to stop and get out of the vehicle, or was it trying to clear the "obstruction"?
It seems that US government and state agents - LEOs, ICE, etc - are taught that their jobs are inherently dangerous and further, that their lives are worth more than the general citizenry. Small wonder they're trigger-happy.
US cops are a bunch of murderous fucks. That is why the rate of police shootings is much much higher that our peer countries. The police kill on average three people per day in the US.
so a little over a thousand in a Nation of 350 million?? way too few
Anyone else not surprised that Josh likes to watch videos of police violence?
How many times did you watch George Floyd being "murdered"?
I found once more than enough. To see Floyd crying for his mother while Chauvin choke the life from him was pretty painful to watch.
Floyd George was a wife beating piece of shit drug addict that the world is better off without, same with this C-word.
Frank
Did you catch him swallowing all those drugs?
It's pretty clear if you're paying attention.
Floyd was not crying for his mother. He was referring to his girlfriend.
How many times did you watch George Floyd being "murdered"?
An assumed double standard that says a lot about the assumer's view of other people.
I can't help but wonder what Josh Blackman thought about the way the attorneys for the police officers who beat Rodney King use the video tape of the beating. Zaprudering the tape frame by frame to tell the jury that Rodney King laying on the pavement was just getting ready to spring up and ripe the officer throats out. I sure the DOJ will use the video to suggest that Good was a similar threat and she had to be put down.
It's been 30+ years but Rodney King was doing Bruce Lee roundhouse kicks after taking multiple Tasers, I never understood why they didn't just shoot his sorry ass. Funny, I haven't heard much from Rodney lately.
Frank
One need not have a direct view of a vehicle's wheels to be able to tell whether the vehicle is moving toward you or turning.
Also, this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ywLEESFDu0
Josh, is your premise seriously that one, looking head on at a driver, cannot ascertain whether the vehicle will turn or drive straight?
Remind me, how does a driver turn a vehicle?
With their mind!!! In the future people will drive with their minds!!! Btw, in Star Wars they explain why droids aren’t always flying spacecraft because humans can make decisions more quickly than droids.
On what planet does shooting a car about to run you over prevent it from doing so? Do some folks really think guns are this magic?
Of course, the video clearly shows that the SUV is driving away from the officer when he fired the shots, not towards him, so it makes even less sense.
The good thing about the right wing echo chamber is they will believe whatever narrative their thought leaders push…it makes things pretty easy because ultimately their voters only care about Bush or Trump winning. So Bush sent Republicans to fight asinine wars while he shipped their jobs to China but Bush protected the sanctity of marriage and didn’t let Bessent marry his Prince Charming and crap out gaybies.
It prevented the vehicle from running over others.
Regarding this:
"Different law enforcement agencies have different policies with regard to the use of force. As I recall, some police departments allow officers to open fire on a vehicle that is being used as a deadly weapon. Other departments only permit high speed chases. Other departments will just allow the vehicle to drive away."
I know academics are famously resistant to research and use of primary documents but there is in fact a Department of Justice policy on use of force that covers federal law enforcement agencies, including ICE. And is talks about this specific situation.
"Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles. Specifically, firearms may not be discharged at a moving vehicle unless: (1) a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or (2) the vehicle is operated in a manner that threatens to cause death or serious physical injury to the officer or others, and no other objectively reasonable means of defense appear to exist, which includes moving out of the path of the vehicle."
Condition #1 is definitely not met. And since the agent did move out of the path of the vehicle while shooting into it, it would appear condition #2 is not met.
Since there are actual written rules in place, that seems like a place for a legalistically minded person to start and not just with a "don't put too much effort into looking because who can tell" shrug of the shoulders.
https://www.justice.gov/jm/1-16000-department-justice-policy-use-force
The officer was hit. You can see it clearly from a different video vantage point.
I have not seen any video with such a vantage point. But even assuming one does exist, what is indisputable is that he wasn't so much as knocked down.
I haven't seen or heard anyone comment on this aspect yet: the driver accelerated hard enough for the left front wheel to lose traction. It's almost certain the ICE agent heard the engine revving when she did.