The Volokh Conspiracy
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Washington Post: "Trump's Attack on DEI May Hurt College Men, Particularly White Men"
Yet the facts in the article would equally have supported the headline, "Elite Private Colleges Apparently Hurt College-Bound Women, Trump May Stop That."
The federal Title IX provisions generally ban discrimination based on sex in federally supported higher education programs—but they specifically exempt sex discrimination by undergraduate private universities (and not just single-sex ones). And, according to Thursday's Washington Post article, there is evidence that elite private universities are taking advantage of that to discriminate in favor of men:
[Brown University] accepted nearly equal numbers of male and female prospects, though, like some other schools, it got nearly twice as many female applicants. That math meant it was easier for male students to get in—7 percent of male applicants were admitted, compared with 4.4 percent of female applicants, university data shows….
Nationwide, the number of women on campuses has surpassed the number of men for more than four decades, with nearly 40 percent more women than men enrolled in higher education, federal data shows…. Colleges that have been accepting men at higher rates are trying to avoid a marketing problem they fear will crop up if campuses become too female ….Colleges worry, "will men look at that and think, 'That's essentially a women's college, and I don't want to go there'?" [former private university head admissions officer Madeleine] Rhyneer said. "For the Browns and Columbias and highly selective and very competitive institutions, [gender imbalance] is a problem," she said. "They want to create what feels like a balanced climate."
There are more similar claims as to Columbia, Chicago, Vassar, and (less elite) the University of Miami, though the exact magnitude of any suspected preference is unclear; the article, for instance, cites a study saying that "The country's top 50 private colleges and universities have two percentage points more male undergraduates than the top 50 flagship public universities, which do not consider gender in admission." Of course, the data doesn't prove that universities are indeed using sex as a factor to prefer male applicants over females. (For instance, it's conceivable that women are more willing to apply to long-shot schools than men are, and that this explains the difference in the percentages of applicants of each sex who were admitted.) But the article treats the data as quite telling.
Yet the article is not framed as "elite private universities are apparently discriminating against women in admissions." And when the article notes that the "Trump administration has consistently included gender among the characteristics it says it does not want schools to consider for admissions or hiring, along with race, ethnicity, nationality, political views, sexual orientation, gender identity or religious associations," it doesn't quote anyone (other than, briefly, Linda McMahon, the Secretary of Education) who takes the view that maybe stopping this discrimination against women are a good idea.
Rather, the article is framed, as the headline suggests, as "Trump's attack on DEI may hurt college men, particularly White men." The first quote in the article is from the president of the American Council on Education, Ted Mitchell:
This drips with irony…. The idea of males, including White males, being at the short end of the stick all of a sudden would be a truly ironic outcome.
OK, maybe it's ironic (a subjective matter). But isn't it also other things? Maybe pro-equality? Feminist? If males have been getting an express admissions advantage because of their sex, why isn't it a good outcome that they lose this advantage? Likewise, isn't it more accurate to say that females have been at the short end of the stick, if the factual claims in the article stand up, and that the Administration's actions would give both sexes equal ends of the stick? (For the record, I think it would be very good if universities treated applicants equally without regard to sex.)
Some later quotes likewise focus on how the Administration's actions would be bad for men, without equally focusing on the current's system being bad for women. The one quote from an expert from a "right-leaning" institution (Rick Hess from AEI) simply suggests that the change won't have much of an effect on universities' gender makeup. No quoted source (again, other than Secretary McMahon, who is briefly quoted as saying that "aspiring students will be judged solely on their merits, not their race or sex") suggests that, if there is an effect, it might be the fair thing to do for women.
This, I think, helps illustrate why many people have lost confidence in the fairness of the mainstream media. Here the authors have evidence of deliberate sex discrimination against women—yet apparently because the attempt to end it is coming from the Trump Administration, the story is framed instead about how it's "ironic" that the Trump Administration is supposedly hurting men by forbidding preferences in favor of men.
Now there are of course other things that could have been discussed here. For instance, perhaps maintaining gender "balance" is a good idea, though, if so, why—and what about the counterarguments? (One argument I've heard in favor of gender balance is that this makes for a better dating environment, but is that an adequate reason to justify sex discrimination in education? Another offered in the article is that men might avoid heavily female campuses, though that sort of consumer preference is generally not seen as an adequate reason to justify sex discrimination in education, plus of course perhaps some men might prefer a higher female-to-male ratio precisely because that might create a better dating environment for them.)
Or perhaps the government has been going too far in intruding into the decisions of private institutions, even when the institutions get government funds. (The article briefly quotes, at the very end, a 1971 statement along those lines by a Republican Congressman who helped exclude private university admission decisions from Title IX.) But there are obvious counterarguments there as well that would seemingly merit discussion, especially since Title IX does ban sex discrimination in admissions to private graduate and professional education, as well as in ordinary private universities as to most matters other than admissions.
Or perhaps one can question whether the Administration has the authority to impose this demand by Executive action, in the absence of Congressional authorization. Or one could bring up the laws in some states that already ban sex discrimination in private university admissions. The article mentions Columbia, Vassar, and Pomona College in its list of private universities that take a smaller percentage of women applicants than of women; they are in New York, which appears to ban sex discrimination in private university admissions, and in California, which appears to do the same as to private universities that get state funds.
But in any event, the near-exclusive focus on how the Administration's actions "may hurt college men" by mandating equal treatment without regard to sex, as opposed to on how the status quo may hurt women by expressly discriminating against them based on sex, struck me as unsound.
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To be fair, there are lots of reasons why a private university might aim to have pretty close to a 50/50 ratio of men to women, without regards to the ratio of apparently qualified applicants.
Off the top of my head:
1. Is is the express policy of the university to encourage heterosexual marriages.
2. It is not the express policy of the university to do so, but there is a small-yet-high-paying minority of potential students who won't consider a university unless that can also use it that way, and the university likes money.
3. The university has designated "men's and "women's dorms, and it has to fill all those dorms all the way to capacity, so if all the women's dorms are full but the last men's dorm currently has 10-out-of-1000 beds filled, there's nothing left to do but recruit 990 more men.
4. The university has strong doubts that things like standardized 4-hour tests like the SAT and ACT and very much non-standardized high school class grades work equally well at measuring the college potential of men vs women, and manually forcing the freshman to just be half all the best men and half all the best women seems way easier than figuring out what the conversion factor should be.
5. The university is aware of various social-science studies showing that beyond a certain critical mass, usually somewhere between 60%-80% female, men suddenly begin to flee from those courses in droves. It's the darndest thing. For example, if one man and 19 women blindly sign up for the same 'introduction to communication theory' course without knowing what types of communication theory the prof is actually talking about, the odds are surprisingly high that the man will drop the course after he shows up on the first day and perceives the gender ratio. Therefore, if the university doesn't want to slowly-then-quickly turn into an all-women's college, it needs to guarantee that the freshmen gender ratio stays more-or-less balanced. And even then, there are still going to be individual departments which get hit by this effect, like engineering or nursing and stuff. Some debate on whether or not the reverse effect, individual women in mostly male career spaces, works the same way.
6. The university believes that it's fundamental mission is to advance the knowledge, education, and truth for all humans. If half of humans want slightly different kinds of knowledge, education, and truth than the other half, as long as it's all still true, then the mission of the university is to advance both types: The University provides the knowledge, education, and investigations into new truths that humanity wants, not that the University wants. Therefore, if increasingly only one gender is interested in what the University is offering, there's something wrong with what the University is offering, because selective appeal to only HALF the human species is the opposite of their stated mission.
And that's just off the top of my head. All potentially valid reasons why a private university might want to maintain pretty close to gender parity on-campus. You could debate how true and valid and appropriate each particular reason is, or whether or not the university should be more upfront about admitting to each particular reason, but as long as the university honestly believes the reason in question and publicly acknowledges the reason in question, it seems ok.
"4. The university has strong doubts that things like standardized 4-hour tests like the SAT and ACT and very much non-standardized high school class grades work equally well at measuring the college potential of men vs women, "
Boys, girls, and grades: Examining GPA and SAT trends
"Girls have long had an edge over boys when it comes to grades. In 2019, the average GPA for girls was 3.23 compared to 3.0 for boys." [I get the impression that the authors' idea of "long" and mine are very different...]
"Approximately 3.1 million people aged 16-24 graduated high school in 2023. Of those, a large portion took the ACT (1.4 million) and SAT (1.9 million). Here we focus on the SAT. Overall, gender differences in combined SAT scores are less lopsided. Boys score slightly higher at the average (1032 vs. 1023). They also make up a slight majority of test takers in both the highest (57%) and the lowest (56%) deciles.
However, the relative symmetry here masks the better performance of boys on the math portion of the SAT–where they receive 61% of the top-decile SAT scores–and their relatively lower scores on the reading and writing portions of the SAT–where they account for half of the top scorers. For every 100 girls who score between 680-800 on the math portion of the SAT, there are 156 boys."
So, the standardized tests and the classroom grades actually point in opposite directions. Dare I suggest the fact that women now utterly dominate K-12 education, (77% of K-12, 89% in the elementary grades.) has something to do with this? As the percentage of women in K-12 teaching has gone up, male performance in K-12 has declined, and it has declined the least in those subjects which are least women dominated.
It's possible these schools we're discussing have decided that GPA is, in this environment, no longer a good measure of relative academic potential between men and women, though it might still be valid within the same sex.
"As the percentage of women in K-12 teaching has gone up, male performance in K-12 has declined. . . ."
Have the numbers changed that much? I did a quick Google search and found an Atlantic article that said that from the 1880s to 1980-81, the percentage of women teaching K-12 was around 67%. From 2015 to the present, that's increased to about 75-76%. That's not a trivial increase but it seems unlikely to produce any dramatic shifts in educational results.
I have no idea if it's changed much or not, but based on some lectures I've heard from various people about the history of K-12 education in the last hundred an fifty years in America having an awful lot of assumptions about principals being men, teachers being women, and teaching manuals being built around the assumption that principals exist to overrule or double-check teachers about anything truly important....
It's probably less useful to check the ratio of female teachers from the last 40 years, and more useful to check the ratio of female principals, assistant principals, and school board superintendents.
No idea what those results would be, but it's probably what you should be checking instead.
Well, I didn't make the claim about teachers, Brett did. So I was wondering if Brett's claim was (significantly) true.
As to your point about principals, there's no question that the percentage of male *principals* was significantly greater in the past. That's true of nearly every supervisory position in the economy. Having said that, I doubt that in most K-12 schools, the male principals were "overruling" or "double-checking" much that the disproportionately female teachers were teaching in the way Brett seems to mean it. Or that whatever "overruling" or "double-checking" principals do today is much different than in the past in that regard. Are you imagining a world where male principals made sure classrooms weren't too "girly," or whatever it is exactly Brett seems to be worried about?
Most of the complaints i've heard are things like the reasons why we have mandatory doctor's notes and mandatory school interventions if a kid misses too many days of class and things like that are because historically the state legislature and the school superintendent trusted paper trails more than they trusted the individual discretion of (female) teachers to just make judgement calls. Similar reasons why so many states have state-mandated or district-mandated specific curriculums and specific textbooks and specific homework loads and stuff.
Similar arguments for why Teacher's Unions are so weird... if we truly trusted Teachers to be independent highly educated professionals with arguable supervisory authority over kids and curriculum and stuff, then arguably they might not be eligible for unionization, but the reason why we wound up with unions for them ANYWAY is arguably because teachers kept complaining about nobody trusting them as professionals, and everyone else kept ignoring them about it.
There are also interesting timeline arguments about how the nature and degree of a generic teacher's authority in various states tended to change as we went further and further away from the model of 'one room schoolhouse probably either run by one man or run by one woman in accordance with the wishes of a very tiny part-time male schoolboard"
and more and more towards the model of "schoolroom filled with LOTS of teachers, most of them women, and the schoolboard nowhere to be found on short notice."
The more we made that transition, the more we kept taking authority over things like spankings and detentions and stuff away from individual teachers, and giving it the assistant principal or principal.
Present-day, I've heard stories that we're increasingly taking away the ability to FLUNK STUDENTS away from individual teachers, no idea how true that is or not.
You can sort of see that if you go read the "Great Brain" series about the problems those kids had with their new male teacher of a one-room schoolhouse, circa 1895 and out west, versus the rather different range of problems a new female teacher had as a new hire at a school in the deep south circa 1935.
In the book set in 1895, the only recourse the kids thought they had to what, if I remember correctly, was a spanking of questionable fairness on the first day... Was to engage in a long-term plan to frame the teacher for acts of bad character, such as excessive drunkedness, until they were eventually ready to spring their trap and persuade the schoolboard to fire him. But then the kids chickened out at the last minute and came clean.
In the book set in 1935, a female teacher embarrassed herself on her first day by not knowing things like that one student was too poor to buy lunch and she was supposed to look the other way, or that another student was a full-time truant and the truant officer had agreed to look the other way as long as the kid showed up for roll call on the first day of school, and the students' response to all that was very different. In that case, the female main character just gently explained the problem to the new teacher, and tried to persuade the teacher not to break down in tears or quit and go back to New England or anything like that, it wasn't her fault, she just wasn't briefed properly by her male supervisors prior to her first day. After all, it's not like the new female teacher could cause any REAL troubles. She wasn't authorized to issue in-class spankings without appeal anymore, that had stopped forty-odd years ago....
oops, forgot to say that the 1935 story was "To Kill a Mockingbird".
If we're doing history....
....long long ago, ie before 1960, there weren't too many jobs, besides teaching, for women, that required them to be reasonably smart. Therefore reasonably smart women taught.
Now there are lotsa jobs for smart women in all sorts of fields. Consequently, to the extent that K-12 teaching was and is dominated by women, you would expect the quality of the teachers to have declined significantly over the years.
So rather than trying to blame poor modern schooling on an influx of women teachers, we'd probably do better to blame it on an influx of lower quality women teachers, and an exodus of higher quality ones.
Economics is a thing, ya see.
women now utterly dominate K-12 education
Dems and now women cannot be trusted.
Soon I presume only clones of Brett will be sufficient for his standards for educational fairness.
Here are two more that I have seen:
1. If the college is heavily women, many women will avoid it because of the unfavorable dating environment. So the college will have plenty of female applicants, but not the best females, because they have fled to where the boys are.
2. The college needs to field quality athletic teams in order to maximize alumni donations/state legislator largesse/favorable popular perception. Those groups really only care about men's sports. Athletic scholarships aren't enough; the school needs a mass of male bodies to be the basis of those teams.
I’ll again point out the anomaly that in most cases where children and youth are involved, gender diversity and gendsr balance are considered perfectly rational and legitimate goals, even if recent Supreme Court decisions have made them no longer compelling as they had been considered for half a century. Yet the minute we get to domestic institutions, suddenly these very same goals are considered irrational, based on animosity and hate, and lacking in any legitimate purpose. It would be odd if human biology and psychology so changes that what is perfectly rational on one side of a door is suddenly totally crazy on the other side and vice versa. After all, constitutionally a foster home more rembles a small boarding school than a family, and even a boarding school is not necessarily the purely commercial institution in its effect on children that it seems to have come to be considered by judges.
re: "in most cases where children and youth are involved, gender diversity and gendsr balance are considered perfectly rational and legitimate goals"
Examples, please. You take your starting premise as a given but off the top of my head, I'm having trouble backing that up.
In the nearly half century from Bakke until Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard, achieving diversity and balance waa considered not a merely rational but a compelling interest. A minority of the Court still thinks that way. Although Students for Fair Admissions overruled Bakke’s holding that the interest is compelling, the court has never found, and few have argued, that it is irrational. Most universities argued for maintaining Bakke. They certainly thought the interest at least rational if not more.
That is not even close to what I thought you were trying to say in the first sentence of your original post.
I also would have expected a contrast between college admissions and "most cases where children and youth are involved" would have cited some example beyond college admission policies.
Well, there’s all the school busing cases. The principle has been applied to education quite broadly.
gender diversity and gendsr balance
Gender ? Or sex ?
uggh. as if the multitude of factors weren't already enough to confound me.
""The country's top 50 private colleges and universities have two percentage points more male undergraduates than the top 50 flagship public universities, which do not consider gender in admission.""
Which do not admit to considering gender in admission, anyway.
Also, can we look at what those private universities prioritize for classes. Various engineering focused schools will tilt the numbers that way while a focus on sociology or public policy will trend female.
Brett, do you now know how correlated variables work?
For fuck's sake take the white male chip off you shoulder; not everything is oppressing you.
Boohoo....the university complex is only doing it because they know that they can't survive without men and are scared to death about the increasing amount who are wising up to the scam of overpriced 'education' indoctrination. The reverse is not true. So while they are in fact tipping the scales for admission they are staying the course in churning out anti male propaganda and fighting to make men second class citizens. They want the good little boys back in their grasp to continue to pay to be mistreated. So screw them.
What a hypocrite you've become under Trump. You're guilty of worse. For example, giving a hysterical speech about the threats to speech from the Biden administration while the Trump administration was in full-swing extorting and suing media, calling for violence against journalists, and banning media from government access capriciously. You don't have the courage to write a full-throated article criticizing Trump's speech record, so you instead accuse others of cowardice.
Maybe Eugene doesn't live in The Narrative like you do and see's the facts on the ground for how they really are? That could be why he isn't out there hysterically on his fainting couch like you people are day in and day out veering from one moral panic to the next, endlessly.
That's a pretty flimsy definition of "hypocrite".
When have you ever written a full-throated comment criticizing Biden's record, or any other lefty for that matter? It sounds like it's pretty easy for you to be the one accusing others of cowardice.
Could also be titled: "Stopping us from hurting White males is hurting White males!!"
In any event, if you look at the DEI evidence out of Harvard, you see that, even in areas of the faculty where women are already the majority, the University's DEI goals are relentlessly to hire as high a percentage of women as is mathematically possible.
So, no, there's no particular reason to think that DEI is working in favor of men, or that it's the outlier colleges admitting roughly equal percentages that are practicing the discrimination.
the University's DEI goals
You doing a disparate impact = intent push?
It's hardly disparate impact if you have published quotas.
I'm highly skeptical Harvard has published quotas for admissions.
I've linked to them before, and linked to them below.
"Colleges that have been accepting men at higher rates are trying to avoid a marketing problem they fear will crop up if campuses become too female ….Colleges worry, "will men look at that and think, 'That's essentially a women's college, and I don't want to go there'?"
Nah. My understanding was generally that women didn't want to go to a college that was mostly/all women. Dating odds were really bad. If they wanted that, they'd go to an all women's school.
As a result, the best women would actively avoid such a school.
This tracks with my own experience having once worked in a private higher ed admissions unit.
EV,
I get what you're trying to say, and yet ... I do not believe you are incapable of understanding why the article was framed this way. Because I think more highly of you.
Context, in articles, is everything. And that includes our own societal context. There is a strong undercurrent (or perhaps OVERcurrent) with the Trump Administration (and the movement behind it) that "DEI" and "Woke" and whatever other words people are using now ... it's all stuff that is helping minorities at the expense of white men. And that if you get rid of all this stuff, then the "cream" (the white man) will "rise to the top."
There's a lot of reasons for this - not just the constant drumbeat of what we are hearing. But what people feel and see; and what old white men see when they visit college campuses with their kids is not what they remember- it's got a lot more minorities (especially Asians, but in general) and a LOT more women. Not to mention the whole college application/attendance process for their kids is a lot harder, more stressful, and more expensive than it was.
So their feelz tell them that DEI and WOKE and LIBRULZ are keeping the WHITE MAN down and letting in all these minorities and women, and if you get rid of that, like will be just like it was in the '50s or what they think they remember. WOOT!
However, the article is pointing out the obvious. Well, not the Asian bit (that's another story). But women. Women, on net, are being discriminated against to try to give more spots to young men.* Which means that if we are really going to be serious about all of this Trump stuff, it's going to end up hurting white men overall. Because white men (at least at the college level) are net beneficiaries of the policies that the administration is trying to get rid of. That's the impetus of the article. Which is just as accurate, and more "news-y" than your imagined framing. Heck, it's why you are even bothering to talk about it.
*Having toured college campuses not very long ago, it was noticeable, and I went over the gender statistics. Not great, and that's with a thumb on the scale.
Finally, I would point out that all of this is assuming (1) good faith on the part of the administration (HA!) and (2) assuming that the wacky views that they've espoused about the supremacy of men in general aren't made into policy.
The thing is, it's not actually established that these schools are discriminating against women, and the other schools that are majority women are not discriminating. The OP just assumes it, to go for the "isn't this ironic!" line.
It doesn't get as much press, but the same statistics that came out of discovery in cases like SFFA v Harvard, that demonstrated anti-Asian and anti-white discrimination, also demonstrated anti-male discrimination.
And, anyway, all you'd really need to get admissions to about 50-50 is to weight SAT more than GPA. Not only do men do slightly better than women on the SAT, they do it with a larger spread, so if you trim the bottom decile of SAT scorers (Who probably aren't applying to go to college anyway.) men significantly score better than women in the remaining population.
....uh huh. Spoken like someone who is desperately trying to cover up the obvious and hasn't actually looked into the real stats.
The giveaway is the bottom paragraph, where after all the obfuscation, you state that IF you accept the Brett's made-up statistics, and IF colleges changes their admissions criteria, THEN it's possible that men wouldn't do as poorly.
In other words-
1. Under the current rubric, men are being overselected- that is to say, women are being discriminated against.
2. If you accept Brett's made-up facts, AND you made colleges change their admissions criteria, it's possible that men wouldn't do as badly.
3. PROFIT???
Look, you can tell the paucity of your argument because you don't actually engage with the actual facts. Also? You do know that there are other tests (the ACT)? And that the SAT isn't the only admissions criteria?
But let's look more closely at your statistics (which I am sure you just googled to feel better). We need to start by recognizing that men do significantly worse than women at the major factor for admissions- GPA (and when you're looking at the top and bottom deciles, it's even worse than just looking at averages). Also? GPA is a better predictor of college performance than SATs. Next, the actual difference in averages on the SATs is negligible ... ON AVERAGE. Bu that masks the fact that there is a difference in high decile scores for men in the math portion (61% of men get the top 10% decile) while women do well across the verbal SAT, including the top decile.
Also also? ACT scores (remember that? pretty popular) show almost no gender gap, although women often perform slightly better than men.
I could keep going, but you should get the point. I'd also point out that women already take more college entrance exams than men, which already means that more men self-select out before we even get to your hypothetical "weeding out the men portion."
(61% of men get the top 10% decile)
Sounds highly dubious to me. Do you have a cite?
See the link lower in the comments.
Of the top 10% of scorers on the math SAT, 61% are male, 39% are female. Of the top 10% of scorers on the verbal SAT, 50% are male, 49% are female. Combined SAT, of the top 10%, 57% male, 43% female.
There is a "U" shaped curve in the distribution, where a majority of males are also in the bottom 10%.
Armchair explains what loki is trying to say.
It looks like what he actually said is the normal brain freeze and mounting terror, that tends to overcome lawyers, apart from EV, when confronted with numbers.
a larger spread
That actually explains the long-term trends quite well, but it's not just the SAT. If one made a statistical curve of "academic ability" - which includes not just intelligence, but also things like diligence and ability to follow instructions, which are better measured by GPA - women are better on the average, but men have a larger spread.
When college is the norm, it's going to favor women, because the truly incapable are largely male. When college is for outliers on the high side, it's going to favor men.
Maybe teaching 100+ engineering classes is still anecdotal, but my experience has been that the top student and the Ds/Fs are predictably male. Women tend do what they need to do.
The thing is, having the larger spread but about the same average, as long as you're cutting off the left tail, that IS going to shift the remaining population right. And while going to college is common today, it's not universal enough for that to not be a factor.
I think the bigger issue is that men and women have somewhat different learning styles, and now that women almost completely dominate teaching K-12, men are disadvantaged by having school taught in a gynocentric manner.
....so now, it's that schools are taught in a "gynocentric" manner?
When you're in a hole, stop digging, and stop offering Big Brain ideas that are unsupported by the evidence.
I think that there is some credible evidence that there will be a gender gap at the very very very high end of natural performance in some areas ... after all, there is a noted gender disparity in diagnosis of savant syndrome (as well as autism).
But what you seem to have missed from what I wrote is twofold-
1. Only one of the two accepted standardized tests shows any gap in favor of males, it is slight on average. The other one favors (slightly) women.
2. MORE WOMEN TAKE THE TEST THAN MEN, which means that they are already selecting out! How did you miss that?
Now, you are saying that the whole system is biased against men, because ... women teach? Mmmm...hmmm. You can't falsify what you want to be true, amirite?
Look, the way to attack the problem is, of course, to focus attention on K-12. But that's also being systemically dismantled. As it stands, and based on what I've seen, the reason you remember things being different is that society was different; now that women are allowed to do more, they do. And they do it well. So well that we are discriminating against them.
women almost completely dominate teaching K-12,
Didn't they always? I recall only three male teachers (chemistry and physics - same guy, and plane and solid geometry - different guys) during my sojourn in K-12.
" it's not actually established that these schools are discriminating against women"
In a world where colleges selecting for racial equity is "racial discrimination" but police selecting for non-white races for a Kavanaugh Stop is not, I'm not sure what you mean by "discrimination" or how you'd "establish" it. It is certainly established that women applicants are more academically successful, on average, than men. So if we admitted entirely based on academic scoring, coed schools would be closer to 60% female. If a school manages something closer to 50% female they're admitting men with lower scores than the women they're denying. (On average across US universities that report to IPEDS.)
In a fact-based world, that is discrimination against women in favor of men. Higher ed institutions, as noted in the article, believe that a well-shaped incoming class is balanced by gender and contains a variety of people from different backgrounds to include race and ethnicity. Again, pretending we live in a fact-based world, this shaping is presented as a rational compromise to build the best academic experience for the students as a whole.
In our post-fact world, things are only "discrimination" if you don't like the outcome. So if you think men should be given priority in society, admitting white men with lower scores doesn't discriminate even while admitting a black or brown male with lower test scores over a white male does. The hypocrisy here--because with MAGA there's always some element of hypocrisy--is that racial discrimination (against white people) is unacceptable and gender discrimination (against women) is acceptable.
"In a world where colleges selecting for racial equity is "racial discrimination""
Racial "discrimination" is, simply, treating people differently on the basis of race. I don't know exactly how you suppose a college could "select for racial equality" WITHOUT treating people differently on the basis of their race.
They could offer places at random - eg by lottery. Formally that would qualify as treating people equally on the basis of race, as everyone would get an equal chance. And even measured by outcome, with a large enough draw each year, you'd get the averages to average out pretty well most of the time.
He's just another Sarcastr0.
All criticisms of his preferences are shallow, irrational and based on vibes, but not his emotionally driven woman-like dogmatic criticisms!!
Although, men leaving college is a fascinating question.
The question of "Male Flight" and the effects it might have on a university are pretty major.
https://celestemdavis.substack.com/p/why-boys-dont-go-to-college
> men look at that and think, 'That's essentially a women's college, and I don't want to go there'
I understand that testosterone levels may be lower these days, but ...
I went to an engineering college in the 70's, it ran something like 90% male, and I imagine the girls didn't like continually being hit on any more than the guys liked the fact that almost nobody could get a date. The only bright light in this was the (now defunct) women's college on the other side of the river.
But the issue here is that guys and girls really ARE different, and if an institution is being run for the benefit of one sex, it's likely not a terribly comfortable place for the opposing sex, even if there's no particular discrimination.
Since you mentioned engineering college in the 1970s, it's worth contrasting the day one speech I got back then with what we're expected to say now.
1979: "Some of you do not belong in engineering or even college. One third of you will be gone at the end of this year. Your best may not be good enough, that's what we're here to find out."
2025: "Every one of you can be successful if you apply yourself. It's not always easy but we have a lot of resources to help you, and you shouldn't be afraid to ask."
I think the effect of those speeches could be somewhat gender dependent.
Yeah, that sounds about the same as the school I went to. The freshman dorm was seriously violating occupancy limits at the beginning of the year, and by 2nd quarter was down to a reasonable 2 per room.
I think there's a certain amount to be said for that.
Men (to a certain extent) prefer a field where even if you try really hard and apply yourself, you can still fail.
Women prefer a field where if you try really hard and apply yourself, you will succeed.
even if there's no particular discrimination.
You talked to any women over 30 in STEM? I can't speak to the stats, but every single on I've talked to has had a story of someone in authority discouraging them.
Your baseline assumption is wrong.
"I can't speak to the stats, but every single on I've talked to"
Anecdote-based logic
Holy shit how did you figure that out?! I hid it so well!
The key here is that Brett doesn't even continence the possibility of discrimination. Except for against people exactly like him.
"The key here is that Brett doesn't even continence the possibility of discrimination"
Strawmanning
You're really in a state now, eh? Check out my quote from him in italics some comments up.
Or his own comment above that if you want more context. Bad news about what it doesn't even consider!
You shouldn't cargo cult accusations of strawmanning. You don't seem equipped to know what that is.
And now the Ignoratio elenchi.
I remember a coworker talking about college. He went to an arty school with lots of gay men. As a straight man, the ratio worked well for him.
I think that was the old days. Now, the hetero women hang out with the gay men while the hetero men stand off to the side trying to reconcile sensitivity vs. attractiveness. It's no wonder fewer people are gettin' any.
I seem to remember that the 'rejection point' where males start to disproportionately nope out of the field based on observing a certain percentage of female classmates is actually highly variable based on cultural expectations.
In some super-socially-conservative 2nd-or-3rd world countries, it can be as low as 20%-33% female classmates causes a large number of men to flee from that college department.
In really liberal modern 1st world countries, it's more like 66%-75% female before the 'nope' effect triggers.
It's not even necessarily about the female classmates as such, sometimes that's just a secondary signal.
For example, imagine two different hypothetical schools, a software/electronic engineering school, which designs computer hardware and operating systems, and a software/human communications school, which designs things like user interfaces and call--center backends.
Day 1 intro to electronic engineering class might go like this:
"The first thing you students should already know, but I must tell you anyway just in case, is that all end-users are stupid, irritating, ungrateful lying scum who deserve everything you choose to inflict on them. NEVER trust an end-user. NEVER believe an end-user. NEVER talk to an end-user. If it was a truly important problem, your buried software failure analytics routines would have told you about it. Also, don't bother telling end-users that you placed buried secret failure analysis subroutines in all their software, all they ever do is whine about it. "
Oddly enough, a lot of girls flee that entire imaginary department immediately after hearing that lecture. Also oddly enough, the room was largely filled with boys in the first place. As were nearly all the teachers. and nearly all the visiting professionals giving guest lectures from the field.
Day to 1 to Software of Human Communications department intro is the exact opposite:
"Remember everyone, end-users are our friends, the customer is always right, the problem is always real to them, and the purpose of a truly good call-center websites and back-end software is to make the world a happier, friendlier, more peaceful place where we can all clearly understand each other without the least bit of temptation to feed each other into woodchippers, because that would be WRONG. We exist to make the world a BETTER place for EVERYONE, and not just for software developers."
For some reason, the vast majority of boys hearing that speech are going to spend the speech frantically flipping through their welcome literature, going "Am I in the wrong class? Did I sign up for the wrong class? did I get the room number wrong? Did I read the course description wrong? Did I read the department description wrong? These can't possibly be the people I'm ACTUALLY supposed to spend the next four years taking classes from... right?
And, coincidentally, most the people sitting in that room already and who are not confused and fleeing are going to be girls, as are most of the teachers and most of the visiting industry professionals.
So if you're a software student at a school that has like 10 software departments, and one day you walk into the first day of a 300-level class and see that 99% of the room is of the opposite sex compared to you, AND that's never happened before in any of your other classes... It's perfectly logical for you to instantly suspect that you probably accidently signed up for the wrong class with a similar-sounding name to what you actually wanted.
"Oh, this is the medical security software class for purposes of PROTECTING patient information. I wanted the medical security software class for purposes of HACKING patient information. two different departments, same course name. oops."
I have no idea if there's a similar female effect in reverse, or how that tracks by national culture. Wouldn't surprise me though.
"I have no idea if there's a similar female effect in reverse"
There can be. Obstetrics is a good example.
There was a time when we had consultants and "thought leaders" telling us the way to get more women in engineering was to make the field more human centric. Put more emphasis on solving social problems. Be more cooperative and team oriented, more content about soft skills.
Although their point isn't completely worthless, it got to a point where I wanted to burst out with something like:
"Not enough men in nursing? Let me tell you the fix. Cut back on the empathy stuff, make it more about competing and winning. In that patient compliance class, less wheedling and talk about how the patient will feel better, more use of body language dominance and the negative consequences of refusing. Are you willing to try that?"
Well, OK, I'm a chicken and held my tongue.
First thought: this is concern trolling. There's a common class of headlines in today's political environment, of the form "We used to live in the Garden of Eden. Then Trump forced an apple down our throats." The media needs conflict. In the last several years the media needs Trump-related conflict.
"gender balance is that this makes for a better dating environment"
When I was at a male-dominated school there were joint parties with a nearby women's college. I worked help desk for a few years and I got questions like "I met this girl named (name) from (school) at the party last Saturday and I want to know how to look up her full name and number." Sorry, I don't know how. This was long before modern social media, or even reliable email between schools.
On the bias in applications, it is commonly said that women in business are less aggressive and that is why they are paid less. The man demands $100K. The woman accepts the $90K offer. Could they be more aggressive in applications? Maybe. My first guess would be the opposite.
"concern trolling"
Yup. There is an entire cottage industry of "Trump policy X will harm his supporters more" article and twitter posts.
"When I was at a male-dominated school there were joint parties with a nearby women's college. "
That works less well these days, especially given the opposite. Notably, there are very few "male-dominated" schools, especially large ones. Even schools that were traditionally thought as such, like MIT, currently have a 52:48 male-female ratio.
"Trump strips universities of DEI protections. College to become female-only endeavor. Men relegated to wearing leather thongs and grunting for sex."
Coming to Netflix reality tv in 2026.
In the end, I'm just kind of amazed at how out of touch you have to be to think that DEI policies typically favor white men.
That's primarily because you don't bother to define things you hate; "woke," or "DEI policies," among them. They are just convenient boogeymen. But let's set that aside for a minute.
This was addressed above. If you look at universities, especially the subset of "elite" and "near elite" schools that engage in some sort of "balancing" (to make the student body representative and welcoming), you see that they put the thumb on the scale in certain areas.
It's not that "white men" are a primary or intended beneficiary; it's more that certain other groups (such as Asians and women) have been selected against. Once you norm for population, you'll find that men in general, and white men (as a subset of the "men" who have benefitted) have been beneficiaries of this "balancing."
It's the unfortunate myth that people tell themselves. "Gosh darn it, if it wasn't for all that WOKE DEI then campuses would just be like Brett Bellmore remembers- just a bunch of white guys hanging out, doin' engineerin'."
But that's not the case at all. Remember that these schools are actively trying to balance genders to avoid disparities- and they are still imbalanced. It is easier as a man to get into selective colleges than it is for a similarly situated woman BECAUSE of the desire to avoid this gender disparity.
Same with race.
That's the issue; people are arguing with their feelz (But Timm-eh didn't get into Hah-vahd because he's a white man!) when the data doesn't show that. It's not that the feelz aren't wrong in some ways- the process is so much crappier than it used to be. But it's not for the reasons people like you are thinking.
"It is easier as a man to get into selective colleges than it is for a similarly situated woman BECAUSE of the desire to avoid this gender disparity."
Is it? It depends. Let's say "selective colleges" are those in the top 10%. The stats are pretty clear. If you're looking at GPA, women outperform men in GPA, making up a higher % at the top 10%. But if you look at SAT scores, the opposite is true. Men outperform women, forming a higher percentage there of top performing students.
https://aibm.org/research/boys-girls-and-grades-examining-gpa-and-sat-trends/
Of course, if a college makes a big push to eliminate the SAT as a metric for college admissions...doesn't that end up discriminating against men?
Inside Harvard’s Discrimination Machine
Look at the placement goals. In every single category, their hiring goal for women and minorities is... As many as possible, regardless of whether that particular category already over-represents women or minorities. For instance, over 70% of their general office staff are female, and their goal is to increase that.
So I'm not pulling this out of my ass, it came straight out of discovery in the SFFA case. They might claim to be pursuing "diversity", but their working definition of "diversity" is "As few white males as possible, even if they are already under-represented".
That's probably also their definition of a "diverse" student body.
Goalpost shifting again, Brett.
This is the problem when your Big Brain refuses to understand what is being discussed, and instead you immediately try to google stuff about things you don't understand in order to support what you want to be true.
We've been talking about admissions for students. Do you see why I can immediately ignore your epic fail? If you don't understand the issue, I would recommend trying to understand it first instead of immediately googling or using AI and just further demonstrating that you don't know what you're talking about, and just want to argue. Because every single time you do that, you are only demonstrating the paucity of your knowledge.
KTHXBYE!
The real problem is when someone doesn't read the posts that address his supposed issue.
Armchair, you're a very special boy.
"hiring goal" is a key phrase.
You are seriously going to assert that, just because an institution practices extreme racial and sexual discrimination in hiring, is no reason to suspect they might do a bit of that in admissions?
Attacking the Trump Administration is the point of the article, from the perspective of the writer. The topic is secondary and the quotes, sources, and facts on the topic are tertiary.
[Brown University] accepted nearly equal numbers of male and female prospects, though, like some other schools, it got nearly twice as many female applicants. That math meant it was easier for male students to get in—7 percent of male applicants were admitted, compared with 4.4 percent of female applicants, university data shows….
The writers of that paragraph are morons.
What were the average grades / SATs of the males accepted? Of the females accepted? What are the majors of males at the schools? Are they taking real subjects, or fake ones? What are the male vs female GPAs / drop out rates?
You need that to know if there's actual "affirmative action" going on.
Why are schools (potentially) practicing "affirmative action" for males?
Because female college students want to date male college students, and a school that's 60 : 40 female : male provides a horrible dating environment for the females.
Since there's not that male actual lesbians, schools need a ration that's "close enough", or they lose the high quality female applicants
female
Found the Ferengi.
[Brown University] accepted nearly equal numbers of male and female prospects, though, like some other schools, it got nearly twice as many female applicants. That math meant it was easier for male students to get in—7 percent of male applicants were admitted, compared with 4.4 percent of female applicants, university data shows….
Sorry, but this is utterly worthless as an argument supporting a discrimination claim. The most glaring omission is that it ignores the effect of having twice as many female applicants, as males.
If twice as many women as men apply, there is no reason to think that equal percentages should be admitted. That would be the case if we assume both sets of applicants have the same distribution of qualifications.
But that's a terrible assumption. The distribution is not going to be symmetrical, it's going to be one-sided. As the volume increases the quality of the marginal applicant is going to decline. This is especially true of prestigious colleges. So the smaller male group of applicants is likely to have a higher percentage admitted, even though the dividing line between those accepted is the same for both groups.
Think of it as a pyramid. The female pyramid is larger, but the upper levels - those accepted - are the same size. The wider base doesn't matter.
Eugene does briefly mention this problem, but it needs a heck of a lot more emphasis.
Bernard, that's all true, but I'm going to do a whatabout.
Don't know how old you are, or your background, but a few decades ago the big push was getting more women into STEM. Those of us on the admitting side would point out that the applicant pool for engineering was perhaps 3:1 or 4:1 female.
Do you imagine that got us off the discrimination hook? No, it did not. Some would take it as evidence that we were so famously sexist that even teenagers had heard they would be given the treatment if they tried to do STEM. We ran them off before they even applied, was the theory.
Also, the stories of heroic women who succeeded despite being sabotaged and belittled by the men around them may have backfired to some extent. Most people don't want to heroically overcome being sabotaged and belittled, they'd rather go where they're welcome. Not saying the women should've denied it if that's how they really saw it, but inviting them to give a speech about it was probably more useful for women who'd already committed.
So back to today - the application ratio could itself be evidence of discrimination. But also, whining about how badly men are treated and how they'll be DEI-ed day and night will probably just make the ratio worse, especially if it's done in front of a group of boys on the edge about going to college.
Ducksalad,
I don't quite follow. You had a high ratio of female to male applicants (or did I read that backwards?). What about acceptances? Equal numbers? And why would anyone think you were running women off with that kind of applicant ratio?
The business about heroism makes sense, as does the rest, except I don't see how a high F/M ratio of applicants can show discrimination against women then, and men now.
I think it's pretty obvious you read that backwards, though I think it more accurate to say he wrote it backwards...
Yes. I think I did.
My fault, sorry. 3 males : 1 female.
Would've taken off 5 points if a student had done it.
the application ratio could itself be evidence of discrimination
It could be, but I (unsurprisingly) find my own suggestion more convincing. Really by a long shot.
And even if someone disagrees, shouldn't they at least think about it. Is it really plausible that the 2000th female who applies is as strong an applicant as the 1000th male?
Moved