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Judge Bumatay on Originalism, Stare Decisis, and the Party Presentation Rule
"When should circuit judges overturn their own non-originalist precedents? Spoiler alert—the answer is 'always.'"
This morning, Judge Patrick Bumatay of the Ninth Circuit gave the opening remarks at the Federalist Society Convention.
First, Judge Bumatay opined on the topic of horizontal stare decisis:
Second, bloodthirsty originalists must not hesitate to overturn non-originalist lower-court precedent.
Judges don't work with a blank slate. We often encounter non-originalist, bad decisions. And trust me–as a Ninth Circuit Judge, I face this problem more than most.
To be clear, I'm not talking about vertical stare decisis. No serious originalist judge would question our duty to follow the Supreme Court. As Justice Gorsuch recently said, "Lower court judges may sometimes disagree with th[e Supreme] Court's decisions, but they are never free to defy them."
What I am talking about is horizontal stare decisis. By that, I mean: when should circuit judges overturn their own non-originalist precedents? Spoiler alert—the answer is "always."
I've written about stare decisis and originalism in the lower courts here.
In his Story Lecture, Judge Oldham said that horizontal stare decisis should not exist at all. Judge Bumatay takes a more restrained approach, and argues that in every case, circuit precedents that are inconsistent with original meaning should be overruled. Of course, on the Ninth Circuit, Bumatay lacks the votes to take these actions. But an originalist judge should do everything in his power to pursue that worthwhile cause. Invariably, that will mean writing dissents from denial of rehearing en banc.
In the Ninth Circuit, we have a rule that we must sit en banc to overturn precedent. So this might mean we must call more cases en banc. I understand that seeking en banc review may have ramifications for collegiality on the court.
I know the sting of having a decision that I've written be later vacated en banc. And collegiality is important.
But collegiality isn't the end all and be all. To me, collegiality is more about how we treat each other, when we are off the bench. Outside of our writings. In those situations, we must always treat each other respectfully.
I agree with Bumatay that collegiality does not mean declining to vote for en banc. I made a related point last year:
I for one, reject the notion that collegiality entails a willingness to reconsider your views. It is always a judge's role to find the truth, and determine the best answer to a particular legal dispute by his or her best lights. And that process primarily entails weighing the arguments advanced by counsel, and deciding which side should prevail. To be sure, judges on a multi-member court will lobby one another for this position or that position. And to maintain relations, it is important to be willing to listen. But I do not think collegiality requires anything more than listening.
Second, Judge Bumatay discusses the gravitational pull of originalism:
In applying precedent, we must "bend" it in the direction of the original public meaning. That doesn't mean that we can take a "cramped reading" of precedent to "functionally overrule" it. But neither should we take an overly broad view of the precedent—allowing it to expand its reach. Instead, if we can find good-faith distinctions, then we should do so and return closer to first principles.
As I said, our duty is to apply the Constitution—not to extend precedent.
Justice Kavanaugh had it right when he explained that text, history, and tradition must function as the "gravitational pull" on our interpretation of precedent. So we can respect precedent even while pulling it in the direction of the Constitution's original meaning. So we don't need to wait for cases with a complete blank slate or questions of first impression for the Constitution's text and history to come into play.
I first developed this theme of originalism's gravitational pull back in November 2012, shortly after that year's FedSoc convention:
So, in this sense, originalism's gravitational pull tugs the Constitution towards original meaning, even if originalism is not advanced in a case that circles the orbit of New Federalism. Originalism is the hidden force that causes other things to shift, even if we don't directly see why. This is why "this far and no further" works, even when originalist arguments need not be made. Thus, scholars need to continue developing originalism so that the force, the pull, the tug remains to keep our Constitution shining bright and strong.
I thank Randy Barnett for offering this weighty idea as a way to explain the importance of originalism in our modern legal landscape. (See also Dworkin's related thoughts on "gravitational force.").
Third, Judge Bumatay would not be limited by the so-called party presentation principle:
Judges are never obligated to follow the parties' agreement to incorrect law. After all, the parties don't need to ensure the best interpretation of the law. Judges do. So even though judges generally rely on the arguments the parties advance, we should never cede our duty to independently interpret the law.
In my view, once a party raises a legal theory, judges may consider anything subsumed by that theory. So we can't completely refashion the parties' claims, issues, or legal theories.But within a particular theory, judges may consider any arguments, sources, or authorities that may be helpful—including those not raised in the briefing. So even if the parties don't specifically make originalist arguments in a constitutional case, judges are free to—and indeed must—engage with the historical understanding of the constitutional text.
I am not a huge fan of the party presentation principle. Indeed, Judge Oldham made a related point. He said it was wrong to follow a circuit precedent when no originalist arguments were even presented.
Judge Bumatay offered a challenge to the judges in the room:
To the judges in the audience, I'm here to say that we can do originalism—not once or twice in a career—but once or twice in a day.
I immediately thought of Chief Judge Pryor's lecture at the University of Florida last year. He offered this observation.
My view comes from my experience. In two decades of judicial service, I have had to determine, as a writing judge, the original meaning of a constitutional provision in so few appeals that I can count them on one hand, and I would still have a digit left to count another.
There is a lot here to consider, and there is a brewing debate about lower-court originalism.
What a great way to kick off the convention.
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MAGA judges may or may not be originalist, but they definitely aren't conservative.
"Lower-Court Originalism"
Adding it to the list!
Actual Originalism
Common Good Constitutionalism
Empirical Textualism
Fair-weather Originalism
Framework Originalism
Halfway Originalism
History & Tradition with a special focus on “analogous regulation”
Intrinsicist Originalism
Instrumental Originalism
Liquidated Originalism
Lower-court Originalism
Original Intent
Original Law
Original Meaning
Original Methods Originalism
Original Public Meaning
Process-Formalist Originalism
Semantic Originalism
Structuralism
Textualism
I don't know what this is supposed to be a list of, but your addition is nonsensical. What the judge is discussing is not an interpretative method as most of the other entries purport to be; it's just a statement about stare decisis.
Yes. The proper addition to the list is "bloodthirsty originalism."
"Originalism" is the proposition that the meaning of the Constitution doesn't change, unless it is properly amended.
Any questions?
That's kind of a child's take of originalism.
You ignore the possibility of intentional unresolvible ambiguities.
More importantly 'the meaning' has, as noted above, quite a few conflicting angles to it.
And in your simplicity you also sweep in a bunch of non-originalist doctrines like the various purposivist methods, which rely on Constitutional meaning and fixity but which originalists have voted out of the club for not giving the results they want.
I got it from Randy Barnett. Not that this helps anything from the viewpoint of you anti-originalists, but just as full disclosure.
No. This is a succinct and accurate description of originalism. It does not ignore or overlook anything you mention.
If you disagree with originalism then that means you think the meaning of the Constituion does change over time, without needing to be amended. Is that right?
If you disagree with originalism then that means you think the meaning of the Constituion does change over time, without needing to be amended. Is that right?
I think you don't understand the idea of "meaning."
Please, tell me the meaning of meaning, then.
When he asked the question, or now?
Yeah. What meaning? How do we decide what the meaning is?
Do we simply observe what the common practice at the time of the framing was, and say, "this is what the Constitution means, forever?"
Pretty dumb, I'd say.
"What meaning? How do we decide what the meaning is?"
That's a great question, bernard. And it's up for debate, among originalists.
But first - you need to state whether you agree with the proposition.
If the original meaning controls, then you move on to the question of what original meaning is.
On the other hand, if original meaning does not control, or if judges are free to change the meaning, then why bother with it? We would need to explore and flesh out this threshold issue further, first.
And it's up for debate, among originalists.
So originalists are egomaniacs, who think that they and they alone are able to work out the answer?
Well, it's also up for debate lots of other places. I think originalists would do well to pay attention, rather than sticking to their own bubble. Lawyers do not, in fact, know everything, and they would benefit from listening to others.
Does the meaning of the Constitution change over time? The correct applications - the extensions - certainly do.
We might agree on a general meaning of "due process," for example, but might not agree on whether a certain procedure meets our requirements. And, IMO, whether it does or doesn't might, in fact, change over time. This could happen as a result of changes in mores, discovery of new knowledge, experience, etc.
And that can't easily be encompassed by amendment. The 8th Amendment instructs us that:
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." If societal notions change, how should that be amended? If judges disagree as to what constitutes an excessive fine, where in the Constitution is the answer? Or even a guideline?
I never said it's only up for debate among originalists. I was just saying that there is debate among originalists, naturally.
If you are not an originalist - as I've defined it here - then you would apparently think that original meaning does not control or that it should be irrelevant. So, why bother debating about it? Just because of the fact that some judges and others currently follow this idea and you want to convince them that your views, even though based on something other than original meaning, are also correct under original meaning?
I agree of course that facts change over time and across different scenarios. There are infinite possible variations of different factual scenarios. So new applications of law are always expanding. Your mistake is conflating that with a change in the underlying law itself.
If you are not an originalist - as I've defined it here - then you would apparently think that original meaning does not control or that it should be irrelevant
This is a false choice. It's not all or nothing.
So, why bother debating about it?
Hell, why bother posting about it in public, maybe you should take it to a secret close originalist forum so as not so sully your discussion with those who don't Believe.
This is dickish gatekeeping.
"This is a false choice. It's not all or nothing."
Fair clarification. It's not all or nothing.
But it is either you agree with my proposition stated above, or you don't.
And if you don't - AND yet, you still think original meaning is or should be relevant in some way? As opposed to thinking it doesn't matter? Then, that is interesting - and should be fleshed out further, as I said earlier above.
"Original meaning controls some of the time, except when we really super-duper dislike it, then it doesn't control."
^Something like that?
Your proposition, as noted, is reductive and both underinclusive and overinclusive.
So step 1 is understanding what you're gatekeeping. You don't seem to know. Which checks out with originalism as purity exercise; the content doesn't matter much.
I never said it's only up for debate among originalists. I was just saying that there is debate among originalists, naturally.
And I am wondering if these originalist debaters are considering discussions of meaning outside of their, um, circle.
If you are not an originalist - as I've defined it here - then you would apparently think that original meaning does not control or that it should be irrelevant. So, why bother debating about it?
You haven't defined anything. It's like saying the government should be run in accord with religious principles. What religion? Maybe you think that means Christianity. Are there no differences among Christian denominations? Would there be no debate as to what Christian principles dictate?
What did Jesus have to say about feeding the hungry, or welcoming the stranger? Apparently, some Christians - large number - disagree with Jesus' ideas on these matters. Now what?
The most disgraceful decision in SCOTUS history was purportedly originalist, according to Chief Justice Taney:
Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393, 403 (1856).
Id., at 604-605.
According to originalist theory, Bolling v. Sharpe, 347 U.S. 497 (1954) (outlawing segregation of public schools in the District of Columbia), was wrongly decided. The ratio decidendi of that decision is that the Due Process clause of the Fifth Amendment (ratified in 1791) includes an Equal Protection component applicable to the District of Columbia. Id. at 498-499.
In 1791 many states criminalized teaching a black person to read and write. That amendment clearly did not then prohibit segregated schools.
Would an originalist have Chief Justice Roberts, in his capacity as administrative head of the judicial branch or government, mandate separate water fountains in the Supreme Court building for "whites" and "coloreds"?
Are you saying you think Scott v Sanford was correct as an originalist matter? I think there is some debate on that.
But suppose, for the sake of argument, you are right. A few years later, there was a constitutional amendment specifically addressing the issue.
One might say, that's not good enough.
One might say, hypothetically, if a constitutional provision unequivocally meant something, but it is a very immoral and unjust thing, then perhaps it should simply be ignored, overturned, nullified. By judges at least, and maybe others. They should not merely wait for a legislative change.
Does this accurately describe your argument? Truthfully, I can respect that position.
I will have some follow up questions though . . .
"One might say, hypothetically, if a constitutional provision unequivocally meant something, but it is a very immoral and unjust thing, then perhaps it should simply be ignored, overturned, nullified. By judges at least, and maybe others. They should not merely wait for a legislative change."
That's not far from my position. I would modify it slightly to take into account the degree of specificity prescribed by the provision. The Constitution was written -- I think by design -- to include phrases that are subject to interpretation. In the case of a provision which does unequivocally mean something -- for example, no "Person be eligible to that Office [of President] who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years" -- it should be applied as written, even if that minimum age requirement were to be someday become regarded as a very immoral and unjust thing.
If, OTOH, a general provision of the Constitution, such as "due process of law," "equal protection of law" or "Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States" is initially interpreted by the judiciary so as to require a very immoral and unjust thing, such rulings can and should be abrogated by the judiciary in subsequent rulings.
That would allow for execrable decisions like Pace v. Alabama, 106 U.S. 583 (1883), Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896), Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45 (1905), Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927), and Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, 597 U.S. 215 (2022), to be negated without legislative action or amending the Constitution.
"Are you saying you think Scott v Sanford was correct as an originalist matter? I think there is some debate on that."
I am saying that Chief Justice Taney thought Scott v Sanford was correct as an originalist matter.
A result oriented jurist can easily slither into the shade of "originalism" to get to where he wants to go. As George Orwell wrote, in "Politics and the English Language" (1946), "When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns, as it were, instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink."
Cuttlefish, BTW, have no spine. Like John Roberts.
Some of the most disgraceful people in the country have been purportedly "justices".
"I first developed this theme of originalism's gravitational pull back in November 2012, shortly after that year's FedSoc convention:"
At the end of the blog post Josh links to, he writes:
"I thank Randy Barnett for offering this weighty idea as a way to explain the importance of originalism in our modern legal landscape."
Sucks to be Randy. That idea he shared with Josh 13 years ago is now Josh's idea.
I for one, reject the notion that collegiality entails a willingness to reconsider your views. It is always a judge's role to find the truth, and determine the best answer to a particular legal dispute by his or her best lights.
Hmm. I don't think there's anything inconsistent in being willing to reconsider your views, and determing the best answer to a particular dispute by your best lights.
Other people's views are some of the lights which illuminate the question we are trying to answer. That doesn't mean that a judge should say to himself "Elena is always so nice and kind and helpful, and she always brings in her home made cupcakes - which are delicious - and she's so smart too, so although I don't agree with her, I'll bend a little bit her way and away from what I think is legally correct. Her cheerful smile and regular cupcakes are worth me abandoning my principles and cheating this litigant of his just deserts."
But it's perfectly OK for a judge to say to himself "It's worth me considering Elena's argument carefully, to see if it successfully pokes holes in what I was thinking. And if I decide she's got a point, I'll have to alter my conclusion to accommodate it."
All of this stuff about "gravitational pull" etc. seems to be in the promotion of astrological constitutional law.
If it takes en banc to change precedent, it should take en banc to create it.
bloodthirsty originalists must not hesitate to overturn non-originalist lower-court precedent....
when should circuit judges overturn their own non-originalist precedents? Spoiler alert—the answer is "always."
Why? Is the claim that all non-originalist precedents are wrong? That sounds more like the view of a fanatic rather than a judge.
"Non-originalist" as used here is obviously a synonym for "wrongly decided." Can't you see that?
What if the fanatic was the prior judge who issued a rogue unconstitutional decision?
Is the claim that all non-originalist precedents are wrong?
Like ML I'm puzzled as to what your point is. Bumatay is simply saying that originalism provides the correct answer to the question of what the law is, and any answer that is arrived at by some other means, which does not by chance happen to coincide with the originalist answer, is wrong and should be reversed. Likewise any answer to a different question - such as what should the law be - is wrong by virtue of being an answer to the wrong question.
This is no more complicated or controversial than saying those who understand correct arithmetic should reject any answer to an arithmetical problem that is arrived at by some other means - such as guesswork, oracle bones, the consensus of a group of people, and so on.
I don't think Bumatay is saying that if someone arrives at the answer "85,839" to the question "what is 213 times 403" by consulting the entrails of a chicken, we should reject the answer (which by chance happens to be right) - we should simply reject the method by which it was arrived at, and check it carefully against the answer arrived at by the correct method.
Is an originalist court bound by precedent created by a prior originalist court, or does it reach its own conclusion as to original meaning?
This is something I’ve often wondered about. But I think I know the answer: proponents of originalism want the originalist opinions they like strictly followed as precedent, no matter what comes up, and want the ones they don’t like as much overturned or ignored (on originalist grounds of course).
For example: Thomas thought Bruen should be strictly construed and followed (because he wrote it and likes it) but others were less sure when the rubber met the road.
Ok the opposite end, Alito has signaled that he thinks the Court should overturn Crawford (an originalist decision if there ever was one) based on some articles he found. Alito l, of course, has always hated Crawford and a broad interpretation of the confrontation clause.
And let’s be real: does anyone think that the discovery of sources and scholarship that calls Dobbs into question would make them overturn it?
Your point - which is not a deep one - is that IYHO judges are frail humans who do not always stick to their principles.
But Dan's question was about what originalist principles are, not whether judges abide by them.
And the answer to Dan's question - per Bumatay, and per common sense - is that an originalist precedent can by wrong and should be reversed if it is. The only difference between a wrong originalist precedent and a wrong non-originalist precedent is that the latter will be in much more plentiful company, since a non-originalist precedent can only ever be right by accident.
So the answer is the second alternative -- the new court must undertake its own analysis and come to its own conclusion as to original meaning. Which seems to destroy the entire principle of stare decisis, whenever a Constitutional provision is at issue. Prior decisions by an originalist court (and of course by non-originalist courts) have no precedential value.
Yes. But no.
The value of precedent (IMHO) lies where there is (genuine) ambiguity, whether in the constitution or statute, ie where your interpretive scheme fails to resolve to one clearly best interpretation. The first set of judges arrive at their pick of the available solutions (ie the ones that rank first equal in their interpretive scheme) and the second set of judges accept the precedent set by the first. Once established, precedent acts as a tiebreaker, horizontally.
If the later court is using a different interpretive scheme then it is more likely that they will conclude that the earlier court did not arrive at one of the first equal interpretations.
This is not particular to the originalist view of the world. Originalism is a theory of interpretation, or strictly, a sub rule of textualism. Precedent is a rule of decision, not a theory of interpretation.
Vertically precedent binds the lower court regardless of its own opinion, because the decision rule does not start with interpretation, but whether the higher court has already decided the question. Only if the higher court has not already decided the question do the lower courts get their chance at interpretation.
Originalism is different from other theories of interpretation: it seeks what the Framers actually meant, regardless of how courts have construed it. The whole point of originalism, in fact, was to brush away unwanted precedent. It's a broom that never stops sweeping.
Leaving aside "Framers" where you mean "legislators", is not any theory of interpretation supposed to be seeking the meaning of the words set down as law by the legislators ?
The opinions of earlier judges construing that law may no doubt be interesting and even useful to later judges in determining the law's meaning - after all the earlier judges may have set down clearly why the law they construed means what they think it means, and you, the later judge, may be persuaded that their answer is better than the one you came up with on your own.
But aside from this pedagogical angle, assisting you in discerning the meaning of the words set down in law, the efforts of past courts in construing them are logically irrelevant to your task. If you are tasked with identifying the painter of a painting from the 17th century, you may find it very helpful that some great expert opined on the matter 100 years ago. But that expert's opinion can't be a determinative factor in who the painter was, in fact. It is what it is. Or was.
Originalism is a very simple idea. It simply says that faced with a conflict between the meaning of the words in the law when they were written, and a different meaning of the words currently, we should interpret the words in the former sense rather than the latter.
Since the meaning of words drifts over time - indeed it may even be subjected to a strong and deliberate current of attempted redefinition - taking the current meaning in preference to the original meaning would be nuts.
I appreciate that you think people who claim to be originalists are insincere, and end-orientated, but that really has nothing to do with the rationality of originalism as a means of interpretation. And rationally, it's a simple idea, which crushes its only textualist rival, currentism - which is so silly that nobody espouses it.
Its other rivals, such as not guilty's approach above, are not really theories of interpretation at all, but theories of decision - ie if your best efforts to discern the meaning of the law's words lead you to a dark place, stride forth into the light with a conclusion of your own concoction. That's not interpretation though, it's substituting a different decision rule, in preference to interpreting the words.
Precedent is also a decision rule, which overtrumps interpretation vertically, but is of much more doubtful value horizontally.
"And rationally, it's a simple idea, which crushes its only textualist rival, currentism - which is so silly that nobody espouses it."
By currentism I take it you mean "living constitutionalism". It's not silly. It seems to have a lot of "vitality", as they say. As Gorsuch pointed out in writing the Bostock decision, the writers of the 1964 Civil Rights Act understood the word "sex" quite differently than as he was applying it. And that for a statute that was only 56 years old.
1. No, by "currentism" I mean preferring the current meaning of the words of the law to the original meaning. Thus if an old law drafted by Puritans banned "gay parades", an originalist would interpret the prohibition as a ban on parades involving bright colors, jollity, laughter and music etc, while a currentist would interpret it as banning parades by, or in favor of, homosexual people. The latter approach is obviously absurd.
2. So I'm not referring to living constitutionalism, which is a slippery animal at the best of times, but is described most charitably by quoting Oliver Wendell Holmes : "The case before us must be considered in the light of our whole experience and not merely in that of what was said a hundred years ago." Which, however charitably one looks at it, cannot be described as a theory of "interpretation" of the written law, but is instead a theory of supplementary extra-textual sources of law. Uncharitably, of course, it means judicial discretion to walk past the text in favor of what the judge sees as the needs of the moment.
3. I think you have entirely misunderstood Gorsuch in Bostock. He does not say that the writers of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 understood the word "sex" quite differently from the way he was applying it. In fact he said precisely the opposite :
Those who adopted the Civil Rights Act might not have anticipated their work would lead to this particular result. Likely, they weren’t thinking about many of the Act’s consequences that have become apparent over the years, including its prohibition against discrimination on the basis of motherhood or its ban on the sexual harassment of male employees. But the limits of the drafters’ imagination supply no reason to ignore the law’s demands. When the express terms of a statute give us one answer and extratextual considerations suggest another, it’s no contest. Only the written word is the law, and all persons are entitled to its benefit.
He is saying that those who wrote the Civil Rights Act - the legislators - very likely did not appreciate all the implications of the words they put into the text. But Gorsuch says he must rigidly apply the 1964 meaning of that word "sex" whatever the 1964 legislators might have thought about applying it to current circumstances.
When the express terms of a statute give us one answer and extratextual considerations suggest another, it’s no contest.
This is the exact opposite of what Holmes was saying. Gorsuch is saying that he has NO discretion. He is being a strict originalist. Whether he got his logic right is highly debatable, but what he was attempting was definitely not trying to import the Holmesian idea of incorporating "our whole experience" into the interpretation of a moderately ancient legal text.
Yet Gorsuch applied the 1964 law in a way he admitted the drafters could not have imagined, and he relied on the language of the statute.
As that great liberal Joseph McKenna put it in 1906, “It is not an unusual judicial problem to have to seek the meaning of a law expressed in words not doubtful of themselves, but made so by circumstances or the objects to which they come to be applied." United States v. American Sugar Refining Co., 202 U.S. 563, 577.
Not sure what work you think your “yet” is doing. Gorsuch says clearly that the meaning of the words and the original writers expectations are different things. And that the former constitutes the law and the latter constitutes squat.
McKenna is equally clear. He wants a way to “interpret” the meaning of words not doubtful in themselves, so as to give an answer that seems to him better in current circumstances than the undoubtful meaning of the words of the law.
It is not the meaning of the words that has become doubtful but McKenna’s enthusiasm for applying them in circumstances that displease him.
Which is not “interpretation” but substitution.
The odd question is how Gorsuch, despite what he said about original meaning, arrived at his conclusion.
What’s odd about it ? He interpreted “sex” in its normal 1964 (and now) biological sense, and concluded that Mr Bostock had been discriminated against because of his sex.
He then mused that the 1964 legislators might have been surprised that the word they used in the law compelled a result that they probably had not imagined.
Nothing odd about it at all.
The only doubtful bit about Gorsuch’s conclusion was the argument that because of sex meant “but for” sex. Which was not compelled by the original meaning of the text, but resulted from a precedent. Thus the somewhat flaky bit of his opinion rested not on originalist interpretation of the text, but the application of a dubious precedent.
"gravitational pull" ok, "penumbra" not ok. got it.
The framers would have been absolutely horrified at the idea of an openly gay Filipino-American being a federal judge. So why this particular openly gay Filipino-American federal judge has such tender concern for the opinions of people who would have denied him a place at the table is a bit of a mystery to me.
"Penicillin was discovered by a person who was racist against X people. Can't imagine why a X person would take penicillin for a bacterial infection"
Just a made up analogy.
And a brilliant example of why argument by analogy is a logical fallacy.
In science, unlike law, there is generally only one right answer. Penicillin either works or it does not. So it really doesn't matter who discovered it.
Constitutional law, by contrast, is as much about having a world view as it is about anything else. No matter which school of constitutional law you subscribe to, it implicates a world view -- yours, the nation's collectively. So unless racism is your world view, you're probably going to treat with great skepticism the world view of someone who is.
As I said in the last thread on the subject, living constitutionalism does not mean making stuff up. It means that when there are competing interpretations, the interpretation chosen by the framers is entitled to no special deference merely because it is the interpretation chosen by the framers. They were right about some stuff, wrong about others. Don't make their beliefs into sacred scripture.
Nah.
A Filipino can embrace the rule of law, constitutionalism, originalism, etc and so forth, if they want to.
Your comment was just another leftist snake telling minorities "don't believe that white man bullshit!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law
Dude, the dispute is not over whether the rule of law is a thing, or whether the law applies equally to everyone. Rather, it's about the methods and process by which the court determines what the law means. So please stop talking and acting as if your side is honest and the other is dishonest as opposed to honest disagreement about what it all means; that's not the way it works.
Though now that you mention it, why should minorities (or non-racist whites) assume that people who weren't bashful about being racists didn't allow racism to creep into their world view, and therefore treat the entire world view with skepticism?
"Rather, it's about the methods and process by which the court determines what the law means."
Sure. And in your view, when a court determines what the law means, are they supposed to look at what it meant originally? Or something else? In other words, does the meaning change over time?
That's the question. I never said there can't be "honest disagreement" about this. Of course there is.
"Though now that you mention it, why should minorities (or non-racist whites) assume that people who weren't bashful about being racists didn't allow racism to creep into their world view, and therefore treat the entire world view with skepticism?"
They shouldn't. They can treat things with skepticism all they want, for any number of reasons. Including racism in non-white cultures.
But at the end of the day, people may find there is a lot of merit to ideas like the rule of law, constitutionalism, and originalism. And losers like you will say poisonous things to try and dissuade them.
Are we supposed to ignore 200 years of progress in how we interpret things? The framers did not consider public floggings to be cruel and unusual, and South Carolina carried out an execution by burning at the stake as recently as the 1830s. Thomas Jefferson thought gays should be castrated. Branding, lopping off ears, those were par for the course at the time the 8th Amendment was written. You seriously think that *our* views of what is cruel and unusual are completely irrelevant? The originalist view, as I understand it, is that cruel and unusual means not approved by the legislature; if some benighted legislature therefore wanted to execute pickpockets, it could do so. If you think that would be sound constitutional law I will candidly tell you to your face that you're nuts.
I find much merit in the rule of law and constitutionalism; not so much in originalism. But the fact that you think pointing out that the Constitution was written by people with a racist world view is losers poisoning the well says far more about you than it does about me.
“I am not a huge fan of the party presentation principle.”
Well yeah. You’re not a lawyer with actual clients who might be on the receiving end of a decision where a court does its own thing. It actually kind of sucks and makes it hard to give useful advice to clients.
“Judge Oldham made a related point. He said it was wrong to follow a circuit precedent when no originalist arguments were even presented.”
This is incredibly stupid and a terrible way to run a legal system. HTF are you supposed to advise clients on the success of a suppression motion or anything touching the vast array of constitutional law when you can’t count on your court’s own precedent and have to reinvent the wheel each time?
And following that logic, why should anyone follow “originalist” precedents anyway? What if they suck on “originalist” grounds? Maybe my historians and sources are better than the courts.
'Play the game our way or we take our ball and go home' is not a method of interpretation, it's failing to play well with others.
That's a vital skill for those in the civic institutions of our republic.
It hasn't been much of a problem, by-and-large, for some centuries.
Now one party doesn't much care for anyone disagreeing with them. And they'll throw as tantrums till they tire themselves out like children.
"t hasn't been much of a problem, by-and-large, for some centuries."
People out there could give you an education in just how different our precedential system is today compared to even less than a century ago.
For starters, read ACB's "Stare decisis and Due Process" (2003)
Living Constitutionalists judges have made a living of overturning what they considered bad precedents. I'm not sure why the same options should be unavailable to originalists.
I think I'm correct in remembering that Scalia called himself a timid originalist, unlike his colleague Brother Thomas, because he recognized other competing interests to "always". Reliance doctrine and stability is a thing in the law. It is what justifies and underpins stare decisis. The wrongness deserving overturning has to be a case by case basis determination.
Who could honestly argue that Dred Scott would not have deserved to be overturned, if a 14th Amendment had passed without the citizenship clause and Congress had only legislated on it. And a Lincoln stacked Supreme Court had a chance to revisit?
(The especially egregious holding in Dred Scott, that blacks could never be considered citizens, was definitely not originalist, lest anyone suggest otherwise.)