The Volokh Conspiracy
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"No Justice, No Peace" and True Threats
As Eugene noted previously, a federal district court dismissed a FACE act claim for threatening synagogue attendees against the Palestinian Youth Movement based on the following social post:
The PYM social media posts call on their supports to "STAND AGAINST SETTLER EXPANSION AT SUNDAY'S REAL ESTATE EVENT SELLING HOMES TO BUILD 'ANGLO NEIGHBORHOODS' IN PALESTINE." The post continues by describing the Aliyah Event as a "blatant example of land theft" perpetrated by "[r]acist settler expansionists." The posts finish with "FROM THE BELLY OF THE BEAST NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE." Plaintiffs allege, "upon information and belief," that the phrase "belly of the beast" refers to a synagogue.
The court stated that the wording of this posting was too vague to constitute a true threat: "there are no allegations that phrases like 'no justice, no peace' or 'belly of the beast' have led to violence. Without that kind of context or history, there is no basis to infer that these posts are true threats."
I don't know what was alleged in the complaint, but I wonder if the relationship between the phrase "no justice, no peace" and violence is sufficiently attenuated that this issue was proper for disposal on the a motion to dismiss, where all factual allegations alleged by plaintiffs are presumed to be true.
On the one hand, "no justice, no peace" is often chanted at entirely peaceful rallies and in such contexts serves, as the court concluded, as advocacy of protest. On the other hand, the "no peace" half of the phrase does literally seem to call for violence, not merely protest, and it's not hard to find examples where this phrase was chanted just before or during violent riots. That's why you get headlines such as, 'No justice, no peace': 7 people shot amid downtown Louisville protests for Breonna Taylor.
Of course, the court is correct that it's likely that this slogan does not lead to violence, as opposed to being chanted by those already poised for violence.
The FACE Act makes it illegal "by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction, intentionally injures, intimidates or interferes with or attempts to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person lawfully exercising or seeking to exercise the First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of religious worship."
So the right question, it seems to me, is not whether using the phrase "no justice, no peace," will likely lead to violence, but whether it constitutes a threat of force sufficient to intimidate reasonable worshippers.
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What I'd like to see is lawful self defense clarified.
They'd behave themselves if they knew that if they did X, Y, & Z, you could pull out a 12 Gauge and start blasting. Without consequences.
So what, in your mind, would be the minimum sufficient justification for a manly man such as yourself to whip out a shotgun and start massacring protesters? Just in case I ever end up attending one close to where you live.
“On the other hand, the "no peace" half of the phrase does literally seem to call for violence, not merely protest”
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Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
peace
/pēs/
noun
1. freedom from disturbance; tranquility.
peace
noun [ U ]
us /piːs/ uk /piːs/
peace noun [U] (NO VIOLENCE)
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B2
freedom from war and violence
So what you meant was half of the phrase could, in one of other common senses of a word used, seem to literally call for violence?
Peace also means dismissing a lawsuit or the lack of a verbal disagreement. In other words, if there is no justice, then we will keep arguing forever instead of getting along.
Huh? The legal question (which is what the court, if not the law professor, is considering) is whether it is a “true threat” of imminent unlawful action or more like “we’ll break your neck if you do that.”
No, that would be the argument as to whether there is First Amendment defense to the claim, not whether it's a valid FACE Act claim to begin with. "True threat" is First Amendment law.
To be fair, you did mention "true threats" in your post's title and started out with the judge's analysis of that question. Then you slinked away from it without ever tying your new point back to that original discussion. I can see why people are confused.
What? The entire post deals with the question of whether "no justice, no peace" rises to the level of a true threat, at least in this situation.
See what I mean David?
We see that you make Randumb comments.
If the FACE Act is construed to cover threats protected by the First Amendment, then the FACT Act is a dead letter as applied to those threats. Thus, the pertinent question is whether in this case "no justice, no peace" is protected by the First Amendment.
I thought the whole point of the FACE Act was that things which would be protected speech elsewhere like in a park would nonetheless be prohibited at an abortion clinic or a church.
Why on earth would you think that? By definition the FACE Act can and does only reach unprotected conduct, not protected speech. The "whole point" was to turn a minor local trespass/disturbing the peace/harassment type misdemeanor charge into a major federal crime.
The speech in Colorado v. Hill was protected speech under the 1A. You just couldn't engage in it near an abortion clinic. The law was upheld as constitutional.
Yeah, nah. Congress can't do that. If something is protected speech, Congress can't unprotect it. FACE only applies to speech that was already unprotected, but wasn't a federal crime.
However there are words that are protected speech in one location and unprotected in another. For instance, as we were just reminded by a court recently, the Tinkers' armbands were protected in the classroom, but Cohen's jacket, which was protected in a courthouse, would not have been protected in a schoolhouse.
I agree that the statements are not prohibited speech under the current interpretation of the 1st Amendment. But we may be moving into a world where micro-aggressions will be considered violence and made illegal while physical violence against Jews or conservatives will be protected speech. Just look at all the so-called progressives cheered on about the murder of Charlie Kirk and begging for someone to "just do it" regarding Trump.
True threats and inducement to imminent lawless action are both (distinct) exceptions to the First Amendment.
"We'll break your neck if you do that," is clearly non-actionable where you are from no matter who says it, to whom they say it, and under what circumstances it is said?
Still better than the MAGA motto "If justice, no peace."
I think Professor Bernstein is at his weakest here.
“No justice no peace” has basically been the Israeli government policy towards the war. Suppose, after one of Trump’s cease-fire proposals offering return of a few hostages for a cease-fire, a Jewish group had chanted it to express solidarity with the Israeli government’s rejection of the proposal and demand that all hostages be released in order for the fighting to stop.
Suppose they chanted this in a town whose local government was pro-Palestinian. Would Professor Bernstein really think it would be constitutional for the local police to arrest them for making threats?
But if it’s constitutional here, why wouldn’t it be constitutional in the hypo? If the hostages aren’t released, the war will continue. That’s a threat of violence, right?
If people are chanting in support of Israel's war in Gaza, "no justice, no peace," they are literally supporting violence--just in Gaza.
I don't believe that the Israeli government has ever used the phrase "No justice, no peace."
It describes the policy - no cease fire unless all hostages are returned.
Trump has consistently supported lowering interest rates and easing credit, but so far as I know he doesn’t use the specific words “soft money.” So if somebody says he has a soft money policy, you’ll object and say that can’t be because he doesn’t use the phrase?
Um, this post is about the actual words, not about policies.
Umm, this post is about the possible meanings of actual words and the possible circumstances in which they could be used. Professor Bernstein’s point is that these words imply a threat. My hypothetical, in which the words clearly don’t in any legal sense, is a plausible one. By definition, hypotheticals aren’t what actually happened, just what could. The words “no justice no peace” could easily be used to mean no hostage return, no cease-fire.
When you day "basically" it makes it 100% clear that you, like MollyGodiva above, are putting words in others' mouths to try to distract from the actual topic.
I’m not putting any words in anyone’s mouth. I am simply accurately describing Netanyahu’s policy for most of the war. No cease fire (peace) unless all the hostages are returned (justice). That’s been his policy. The phrase could be used as a succinct description of it.
A hypothetical is a way of clarifying the logic and extent of someone’s argument. It’s used in legal discussion all the time.
Yes, like I said, you're putting words in other people's mouths. The slogan doesn't get used in the context of open conflicts because the differences being discussed are much clearer. Jewish protesters in the kind of situation you suggested would be chanting something like "bring them all home", not a cloaked call for violence.
Let me understand your logic here. You’re saying that if you don’t think people will use a particular set of words, that proves they aren’t protected by the First Amendment.
How do you get that?
That's not my logic at all. My argument is that your hypo fails because we have seen what Jewish people say in broadly similar protests, and it isn't "no justice, no peace". It's very different, and not prone to interpretation as a threat.
What does "no shoes, no shirt, no service" mean? It obviously doesn't mean that if you don't get service, your shoes or shirt will be confiscated or don't count as clothing. "No justice, no peace" has a similarly clear implication in this context. The only real question is whether that threat is directed at people going to the synagogue or to people halfway around the globe.
“No justice, no peace" has a similarly clear implication in this context. The only real question is whether that threat”
It’s true, when I yell to my kids “why won’t you give me a minute of peace” I am clearly expressing my victimization of assault and/or battery by them.
No you aren't describing it accurately, since there were interruptions in the fighting at times when fewer than all the hostages had been returned.
That’s because Trump prevailed on Netanyahu to deviate.
Not seeing this.
So the right question, it seems to me, is not whether using the phrase "no justice, no peace," will likely lead to violence, but whether it constitutes a threat of force sufficient to intimidate reasonable worshippers.
Don't you think that the likelihood of violence is an important factor to weigh when deciding whether a reasonable worshipper would feel intimidated?
Don't worry, the question is rhetorical in that you've answered "no" elsewhere. You seem to think that nationwide vibes have Jews on edge, and that alone makes pretty much any anti-Israel speech reasonably intimidating. It sure is a convenient way of shutting down your enemies' First Amendment rights! "Oh we're just so petrified of what you might do to us that anything you say is tantamount to harassment!"
Well, at least we get to point and laugh at you shaking there in your urine-covered boots. "Boo!"
Are there worshippers, reasonable or otherwise, at these real estate/recruiting events? Such events in Canada have been the source of angst.
No Justice No Peace has been a slogan for a long time.
Contextless textual parsing to make it an unprotected call for violence is fucking ridiculous..
Agreed. I don't think there is any reasonable argument that it is a true threat.
Now, I could be persuaded that the chant, in conjunction with other actions, might as a whole be considered a true threat.
I asked an AI, and it said: Civil Rights leaders like Martin Luther King, Jr., used a similar formulation, stating, "There can be no peace without justice, and there can be no justice without peace," emphasizing that the two concepts are inextricably linked in a moral and social sense.
"No justice, no peace" as a call for violence? This is pure mood affiliation.
Based on DB's post history, his specialty isn't a particular area of law (e.g. like Orin and the 4th or Eugene and the 1st), but rather defending the interests of a particular group. But hey, still better than an average JB post.
You're not too bright, are you? If you really want to know what Professor Bernstein has produced by way of legal scholarship, you could simply consult that resource known as Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bernstein_(law_professor)
But now that you have aroused our curiosity in this regard, why don't you shed your cloak of anonymity and tell us where we can see your record of equal or greater legal scholarship. No ,for some reason you are not inclined to do so?
Well, thanks anyway for playing.
I did read his wiki page. I noticed it cites constitutional history and admissibility of expert evidence as his areas of expertise.
This post is neither. In fact, I'm hard pressed to find the last time he posted on this blog about a subject mentioned on his wiki page.
His posts are virtually all about israel/gaza protests or perceived anti-semitism. Doesn't particularly matter what the legal issues are, so much as the parties involved.
The bloggers here I most enjoy are the ones that blog about their legal niche, like administrative or environmental or first amendment law.
Not an exhaustive search, but I found this from 2015. Surely you can find one more recent?
https://reason.com/volokh/2015/07/01/more-on-the-eleventh-circuits/
Oh, you're complaint is that you don't feel you've gotten value for what you've spent here since he doesn't blog about what you would be interested in. Yes, your dissatisfaction is readily understandable.
When you were researching Professor Bernstein's scholarly output, did you happen to look at his faculty page and the subjects he lists as areas of expertise, like product liability and tort reform, or you didn't see those? https://www.law.gmu.edu/directory/profiles/bernstein_david
And did you decide against revealing your own identity and saying wherein your own legal expertise lies? Forgive me, I am just poking at you because it is warranted and so easy. And I suggest for your own benefit skip Professor Bernstein's infrequent posts.
As I read him he’s just saying that most Conspirators post here about legal specialties they work on but DB seems to post a lot about Israel-adjacent issues generally.
Wouldn't it be relevant to look at the Palestinian Youth Movement's history, that is whether they have on previous occasions threatened or engaged in physical violence? It seems to me the court should have entertained such evidence.
You mean besides the riot that prompted this lawsuit?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/24/us/los-angeles-synagogue-palestinian-israeli-protest-violence
PYM are closely linked to PFLP and other Hamas-linked terror groups as well.
whether they have on previous occasions
Mikie: Let me point to one (and the one in question) event!
“Of course, the court is correct that it's likely that this slogan does not lead to violence, as opposed to being chanted by those already poised for violence.”
In the cited event was there proof those who committed (poised for?) violence were chanting this?