The Volokh Conspiracy
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"No Justice, No Peace" and True Threats
[UPDATE: In retrospect I buried the lede here. On motion to dismiss, the court found that social media postings regarding a synagogue event did not violate the FACE act because they do not constitute a "true threat," because using the phrase "no Justice no peace" was not alleged to lead to violence.
As I point out at end of the post, the operative question under the FACE act at the motion to dismiss stage, at least arguably, is whether the posting in question sufficiently threatening to intimidate synagogue goers, and that seems a much closer question. The court did not address the First Amendment at all in its opinion, so the issue of "true threat," which is a First Amendment, not a FACE act doctrine, was not obviously present at this stage of the litigation.]
As Eugene noted previously, a federal district court dismissed a FACE act claim for threatening synagogue attendees against the Palestinian Youth Movement based on the following social post:
The PYM social media posts call on their supports to "STAND AGAINST SETTLER EXPANSION AT SUNDAY'S REAL ESTATE EVENT SELLING HOMES TO BUILD 'ANGLO NEIGHBORHOODS' IN PALESTINE." The post continues by describing the Aliyah Event as a "blatant example of land theft" perpetrated by "[r]acist settler expansionists." The posts finish with "FROM THE BELLY OF THE BEAST NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE." Plaintiffs allege, "upon information and belief," that the phrase "belly of the beast" refers to a synagogue.
The court stated that the wording of this posting was too vague to constitute a true threat: "there are no allegations that phrases like 'no justice, no peace' or 'belly of the beast' have led to violence. Without that kind of context or history, there is no basis to infer that these posts are true threats."
I don't know what was alleged in the complaint, but I wonder if the relationship between the phrase "no justice, no peace" and violence is sufficiently attenuated that this issue was proper for disposal on the a motion to dismiss, where all factual allegations alleged by plaintiffs are presumed to be true.
On the one hand, "no justice, no peace" is often chanted at entirely peaceful rallies and in such contexts serves, as the court concluded, as advocacy of protest. On the other hand, the "no peace" half of the phrase does literally seem to call for violence, not merely protest, and it's not hard to find examples where this phrase was chanted just before or during violent riots. That's why you get headlines such as, 'No justice, no peace': 7 people shot amid downtown Louisville protests for Breonna Taylor.
Of course, the court is correct that it's likely that this slogan does not lead to violence, as opposed to being chanted by those already poised for violence.
The FACE Act makes it illegal "by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction, intentionally injures, intimidates or interferes with or attempts to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person lawfully exercising or seeking to exercise the First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of religious worship."
So the right question, it seems to me, is not whether using the phrase "no justice, no peace," will likely lead to violence, but whether it constitutes a threat of force sufficient to intimidate reasonable worshippers.
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What I'd like to see is lawful self defense clarified.
They'd behave themselves if they knew that if they did X, Y, & Z, you could pull out a 12 Gauge and start blasting. Without consequences.
So what, in your mind, would be the minimum sufficient justification for a manly man such as yourself to whip out a shotgun and start massacring protesters? Just in case I ever end up attending one close to where you live.
Ed is wishing he could have been the one to shoot Ashli Bobbitt. And indeed, if every member of Congress was armed with a AK-47, protesters would behave a little better in the Capitol building.
Not sure that Ed favored shooting Bobbitt, who Trump hailed as a 1/6/21 "heroine." I on the other hand thought it was clearly justifiable homicide by a LEO.
“What I’d like to see is […] blasting [w]ithout consequences.”
The rest of the comment is unnecessary surplusage.
“On the other hand, the "no peace" half of the phrase does literally seem to call for violence, not merely protest”
Dictionary
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peace
/pēs/
noun
1. freedom from disturbance; tranquility.
peace
noun [ U ]
us /piːs/ uk /piːs/
peace noun [U] (NO VIOLENCE)
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B2
freedom from war and violence
So what you meant was half of the phrase could, in one of other common senses of a word used, seem to literally call for violence?
Peace also means dismissing a lawsuit or the lack of a verbal disagreement. In other words, if there is no justice, then we will keep arguing forever instead of getting along.
Huh? The legal question (which is what the court, if not the law professor, is considering) is whether it is a “true threat” of imminent unlawful action or more like “we’ll break your neck if you do that.”
No, that would be the argument as to whether there is First Amendment defense to the claim, not whether it's a valid FACE Act claim to begin with. "True threat" is First Amendment law.
To be fair, you did mention "true threats" in your post's title and started out with the judge's analysis of that question. Then you slinked away from it without ever tying your new point back to that original discussion. I can see why people are confused.
What? The entire post deals with the question of whether "no justice, no peace" rises to the level of a true threat, at least in this situation.
See what I mean David?
We see that you make Randumb comments.
If the FACE Act is construed to cover threats protected by the First Amendment, then the FACT Act is a dead letter as applied to those threats. Thus, the pertinent question is whether in this case "no justice, no peace" is protected by the First Amendment.
I thought the whole point of the FACE Act was that things which would be protected speech elsewhere like in a park would nonetheless be prohibited at an abortion clinic or a church.
Why on earth would you think that? By definition the FACE Act can and does only reach unprotected conduct, not protected speech. The "whole point" was to turn a minor local trespass/disturbing the peace/harassment type misdemeanor charge into a major federal crime.
The speech in Colorado v. Hill was protected speech under the 1A. You just couldn't engage in it near an abortion clinic. The law was upheld as constitutional.
Was the FACE Act at issue in Colorado v. Hill?
No. But, it might be possible to couch the FACE Act as a content neutral place regulation in light of Hill.
On the other hand, the opinion does not address the First Amendment issues and instead applied the same "true threat" standard used in the First Amendment to the statutory language in the FACE Act. Presumably, the judge (and the plaintiffs) felt it was necessary to do so to comply with the First Amendment. Ditto for Bernstein the OP, although he appears to have changed his tune in the above comment.
On second thought, the text of the FACE Act states:
So, a threat that falls short of a true threat unprotected by the First Amendment would not be actionable under the FACE Act.
Yeah, nah. Congress can't do that. If something is protected speech, Congress can't unprotect it. FACE only applies to speech that was already unprotected, but wasn't a federal crime.
However there are words that are protected speech in one location and unprotected in another. For instance, as we were just reminded by a court recently, the Tinkers' armbands were protected in the classroom, but Cohen's jacket, which was protected in a courthouse, would not have been protected in a schoolhouse.
FACE applies to conduct, not speech.
I agree that the statements are not prohibited speech under the current interpretation of the 1st Amendment. But we may be moving into a world where micro-aggressions will be considered violence and made illegal while physical violence against Jews or conservatives will be protected speech. Just look at all the so-called progressives cheered on about the murder of Charlie Kirk and begging for someone to "just do it" regarding Trump.
So there are two kinds of "true threats"? One, broadly defined, which is illegal under FACE, and the other, narrowly defined, which is unprotected under the First Amendment? From which it follows that FACE prohibits lots of statements protected by the First Amendment. I don't think that's the law. I think "true threats" means the same thing everywhere. Or, to put it another way, the only threats prohibited by FACE are the "true threats" not protected by the First Amendment.
Look, I understand that Bernstein is flailing, trying to find ways to shut down protected speech when it annoys Jews. It's a sad thing when ethnic loyalty overrides principles, but not uncommon.
True threats and inducement to imminent lawless action are both (distinct) exceptions to the First Amendment.
"We'll break your neck if you do that," is clearly non-actionable where you are from no matter who says it, to whom they say it, and under what circumstances it is said?
No. I was alluding to a particular fact situation from a particularly notable case dealing with the First Amendment and "true threats," There might be some other situation where "we'll break your neck" constituted a true threat.
Still better than the MAGA motto "If justice, no peace."
I think Professor Bernstein is at his weakest here.
“No justice no peace” has basically been the Israeli government policy towards the war. Suppose, after one of Trump’s cease-fire proposals offering return of a few hostages for a cease-fire, a Jewish group had chanted it to express solidarity with the Israeli government’s rejection of the proposal and demand that all hostages be released in order for the fighting to stop.
Suppose they chanted this in a town whose local government was pro-Palestinian. Would Professor Bernstein really think it would be constitutional for the local police to arrest them for making threats?
But if it’s constitutional here, why wouldn’t it be constitutional in the hypo? If the hostages aren’t released, the war will continue. That’s a threat of violence, right?
If people are chanting in support of Israel's war in Gaza, "no justice, no peace," they are literally supporting violence--just in Gaza.
I don't believe that the Israeli government has ever used the phrase "No justice, no peace."
It describes the policy - no cease fire unless all hostages are returned.
Trump has consistently supported lowering interest rates and easing credit, but so far as I know he doesn’t use the specific words “soft money.” So if somebody says he has a soft money policy, you’ll object and say that can’t be because he doesn’t use the phrase?
Um, this post is about the actual words, not about policies.
Umm, this post is about the possible meanings of actual words and the possible circumstances in which they could be used. Professor Bernstein’s point is that these words imply a threat. My hypothetical, in which the words clearly don’t in any legal sense, is a plausible one. By definition, hypotheticals aren’t what actually happened, just what could. The words “no justice no peace” could easily be used to mean no hostage return, no cease-fire.
The Israeli slogan, if they had one, would probably be, "No peace, no peace." Since, you know, Hamas has been in a continual state of war with them for years now.
When you day "basically" it makes it 100% clear that you, like MollyGodiva above, are putting words in others' mouths to try to distract from the actual topic.
I’m not putting any words in anyone’s mouth. I am simply accurately describing Netanyahu’s policy for most of the war. No cease fire (peace) unless all the hostages are returned (justice). That’s been his policy. The phrase could be used as a succinct description of it.
A hypothetical is a way of clarifying the logic and extent of someone’s argument. It’s used in legal discussion all the time.
Yes, like I said, you're putting words in other people's mouths. The slogan doesn't get used in the context of open conflicts because the differences being discussed are much clearer. Jewish protesters in the kind of situation you suggested would be chanting something like "bring them all home", not a cloaked call for violence.
Let me understand your logic here. You’re saying that if you don’t think people will use a particular set of words, that proves they aren’t protected by the First Amendment.
How do you get that?
That's not my logic at all. My argument is that your hypo fails because we have seen what Jewish people say in broadly similar protests, and it isn't "no justice, no peace". It's very different, and not prone to interpretation as a threat.
What does "no shoes, no shirt, no service" mean? It obviously doesn't mean that if you don't get service, your shoes or shirt will be confiscated or don't count as clothing. "No justice, no peace" has a similarly clear implication in this context. The only real question is whether that threat is directed at people going to the synagogue or to people halfway around the globe.
“No justice, no peace" has a similarly clear implication in this context. The only real question is whether that threat”
It’s true, when I yell to my kids “why won’t you give me a minute of peace” I am clearly expressing my victimization of assault and/or battery by them.
No you aren't describing it accurately, since there were interruptions in the fighting at times when fewer than all the hostages had been returned.
That’s because Trump prevailed on Netanyahu to deviate.
Not seeing this.
So the right question, it seems to me, is not whether using the phrase "no justice, no peace," will likely lead to violence, but whether it constitutes a threat of force sufficient to intimidate reasonable worshippers.
Don't you think that the likelihood of violence is an important factor to weigh when deciding whether a reasonable worshipper would feel intimidated?
Don't worry, the question is rhetorical in that you've answered "no" elsewhere. You seem to think that nationwide vibes have Jews on edge, and that alone makes pretty much any anti-Israel speech reasonably intimidating. It sure is a convenient way of shutting down your enemies' First Amendment rights! "Oh we're just so petrified of what you might do to us that anything you say is tantamount to harassment!"
Well, at least we get to point and laugh at you shaking there in your urine-covered boots. "Boo!"
Are there worshippers, reasonable or otherwise, at these real estate/recruiting events? Such events in Canada have been the source of angst.
No Justice No Peace has been a slogan for a long time.
Contextless textual parsing to make it an unprotected call for violence is fucking ridiculous..
Agreed. I don't think there is any reasonable argument that it is a true threat.
Now, I could be persuaded that the chant, in conjunction with other actions, might as a whole be considered a true threat.
I asked an AI, and it said: Civil Rights leaders like Martin Luther King, Jr., used a similar formulation, stating, "There can be no peace without justice, and there can be no justice without peace," emphasizing that the two concepts are inextricably linked in a moral and social sense.
"No justice, no peace" as a call for violence? This is pure mood affiliation.
Based on DB's post history, his specialty isn't a particular area of law (e.g. like Orin and the 4th or Eugene and the 1st), but rather defending the interests of a particular group. But hey, still better than an average JB post.
You're not too bright, are you? If you really want to know what Professor Bernstein has produced by way of legal scholarship, you could simply consult that resource known as Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bernstein_(law_professor)
But now that you have aroused our curiosity in this regard, why don't you shed your cloak of anonymity and tell us where we can see your record of equal or greater legal scholarship. No ,for some reason you are not inclined to do so?
Well, thanks anyway for playing.
I did read his wiki page. I noticed it cites constitutional history and admissibility of expert evidence as his areas of expertise.
This post is neither. In fact, I'm hard pressed to find the last time he posted on this blog about a subject mentioned on his wiki page.
His posts are virtually all about israel/gaza protests or perceived anti-semitism. Doesn't particularly matter what the legal issues are, so much as the parties involved.
The bloggers here I most enjoy are the ones that blog about their legal niche, like administrative or environmental or first amendment law.
Not an exhaustive search, but I found this from 2015. Surely you can find one more recent?
https://reason.com/volokh/2015/07/01/more-on-the-eleventh-circuits/
Oh, you're complaint is that you don't feel you've gotten value for what you've spent here since he doesn't blog about what you would be interested in. Yes, your dissatisfaction is readily understandable.
When you were researching Professor Bernstein's scholarly output, did you happen to look at his faculty page and the subjects he lists as areas of expertise, like product liability and tort reform, or you didn't see those? https://www.law.gmu.edu/directory/profiles/bernstein_david
And did you decide against revealing your own identity and saying wherein your own legal expertise lies? Forgive me, I am just poking at you because it is warranted and so easy. And I suggest for your own benefit skip Professor Bernstein's infrequent posts.
As I read him he’s just saying that most Conspirators post here about legal specialties they work on but DB seems to post a lot about Israel-adjacent issues generally.
Yes, thank you, that was largely my point.
I already filter out JB posts with a chrome extension, maybe time to add DB
I mean, I have very much enjoyed his writing on Daubert and FRE 702. The Lochner stuff was obviously very important as well and squarely in his wheelhouse. He just doesnt make those kinds of posts anymore, it's been about 10 years since he has
Yeah, I really loved his Daubert and evidence posts.
.... long time since that.
Wouldn't it be relevant to look at the Palestinian Youth Movement's history, that is whether they have on previous occasions threatened or engaged in physical violence? It seems to me the court should have entertained such evidence.
You mean besides the riot that prompted this lawsuit?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/24/us/los-angeles-synagogue-palestinian-israeli-protest-violence
PYM are closely linked to PFLP and other Hamas-linked terror groups as well.
whether they have on previous occasions
Mikie: Let me point to one (and the one in question) event!
That a supposed threat led to actual violence is a pretty strong indication as to whether the supposed threat was a true threat.
“Of course, the court is correct that it's likely that this slogan does not lead to violence, as opposed to being chanted by those already poised for violence.”
In the cited event was there proof those who committed (poised for?) violence were chanting this?
I think "No justice, no peace" is basically always an extortionate threat, (Give me what I call "justice" or I'll see to it you don't have peace.) but vague enough to skate by most of the time.
Yes, it is an extortionate threat (to Brett, of course) for people to say that they will keep protesting until just conditions are achieved.
As a reminder, "No justice, no peace," has it roots in the 1980s, and is most commonly associated with protests against unlawful killings by police officers. While you cannot definitively trace the lineage, the wording of it is often attributed to the well-known extortionist and threat-maker, MLK Jr.-
"In the final analysis, there can be no peace without justice, and there can be no justice without peace."
This is a serious facepalm moment. How do you say, "I am the type of person who thinks that civil protest is terrible, and jack-booted authoritarianism based on people saying words is great ...." without actually saying it?
Welp, we have our evidence in this post and in the comments. I mean, someone should right a book about criminalizing common protest chants! I have an idea for a title-
"You Can't Say That: The Growing Threat to Civil Liberties from Criminalizing Free Speech!"
Has a ring to it.
"Protest", at least as I understand it, is a peaceful activity. So I do not take 'no justice, no peace' to be a threat to continue protesting.
Now I've seen evidence that the left don't regard 'protest' as limited to peaceful, lawful actions, or even to civil disobedience of the classical sort. (Civilly violating a law you are protesting so that it has to be publically be for enforced against sympathetic people, to generate public pressure for its repeal.)
Suffice to say, if your idea of protest encompasses criminal acts, I'm comfortable with treating it as 'crime', not 'protest'.
Again, Brett shows how he manages to reason to things he already knows to be true ... while somehow remaining completely ignorant of how the world actually has worked for the time that he has been alive.
I am guessing that the closest Brett has ever been to the thousands upon thousands of completely peaceful protests at which this was chanted over the forty years that it was first used ... was watching it on television, intermixed with his own brain footage of riots.
Please, for the love of god, touch grass sometime Brett.
Nah, I've been within feet of such protests. As long as they're peaceful, they can't be the 'no peace' they're threatening.
...okay, so what you're saying is that you know that this is a common chant at peaceful protests.
You know that this comes from MLK Jr.
You know that his has been used as a protest (a peaceful protest chant) for decades.
And yet you, Brett, interpret a common chant used thousands upon thousands of times at peaceful protests to be a TRUE THREAT!
Next, in breaking news, Brett explains to us how the song, "White Christmas," is actually a TRUE THREAT for Neo-Nazi takeovers on December 25, because of his BIG BRAIN and facility with words. YOU HEARD IT FIRST!
Nah, I've been within feet of such protests. As long as they're peaceful, they can't be the 'no peace' they're threatening.
There are books about protest movements, you know. Might be good to read up on some of them versus your own expertise from being near some protests.
You also seem to conflate crime with violence.
In the end, protest is a generally liberal activity. Hence you post about how protesting is suspect off the break.
I've seen evidence that the left
You don't live in a fucking political novel. The left you keep invoking is something you made up because you want a simple world where you're the goodest guy.
You're a terrible libertarian.
Does Brett not understand that there is a difference between the word, "libertarian," and the word, "authoritarian?"
Asking for a friend.
Clown ass.
I'm no lawyer, so forgive my ignorance here, but I'm baffled that chanting “no justice, no peace” might indicate a threat of violence, but “Hang Mike Pence” (while constructing a gallows, no less) or “If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore” must be interpreted in the most benign manner.
I'd say that chanting "Hang Mike Pence" while constructing a non-functional mock gallows is not benign, but neither is it a threat to hang him from it. On account of it being non-functional...
If I point a gun at you and say, "I'm going to shoot you," is that a threat to shoot you with the gun? Does it cease to be a threat to shoot you with a gun if the gun happens to be unloaded?
If I point a rubber band gun at you, though...
It was an obviously non-functional PROP gallows.
I know you consider yourself an expert in all areas of human knowledge, but I value actual expertise, so I prefer to hear from people with actual legal training and experience.
Sounds like an extortionate threat!
Come on, Brett, can you not see the standards shift from super low to ridiculously high you just now did?
You're kidding, right?
Brett: If someone chants the exact same phrase used at thousands of peaceful protests that was derived from MLK Jr. and is something no one even notices as out-of-place, that's a TRUE THREAT TO KILL!
Also Brett: If someone says they are going to kill you, and brings a full size gallows to show how they are going to kill you, then unless and until you can verify that the gallows is in perfect operational order, that's just words and means nothing.
See, Brett is about context. And the context is ... speech he doesn't like is presumptively bad and should be punished, and speech he likes is always protected for reasons.
All I said is that if you chant about hanging somebody while displaying a fake prop gallows, you're not threatening to hang them from the prop. Nothing more.
So, pretty similar to "No justice, no peace"; A threat, but vague and remote enough to get away with.
....when you're in a hole, keep digging.
To recap, you just explained that you find the following to "pretty similar" in terms of a threat.
1. I'm going to hang a specific and named person, along with actual (albeit non-functional) gallows.
2. The slogan of, "No justice, no peace," which is as common at civil protests as "2-4-6-8 Who Do We Appreciate?" is at middle-school soccer matches.
Cool story.
OK so is the gallows thing an extortionate threat or not, in your book?
You've laid out the standard already, lets see if you can apply it...
The gallows thing was a prop, ergo it was a component of speech.
The threat to hang somebody is a threat, and as it's a threat that's contingent on them not getting what they want, it's an extortionate threat, similar to "No justice, no peace". Similar in the regard that it is sufficiently remote from execution that it's likely not a "true threat".
If they'd had a functional gallows on hand, I'd say that it was a true threat.
Just like "No justice, no peace" would be a true threat if you got too specific about what "no peace" entailed.
Regarding David's update,
it is true this opinion dealt only with the FACE statute and not the First Amendment. However, because of this from the statute:
it would seem to me there can be no daylight between what constitutes a statutory threat and a constitutionally-unprotected threat (noting the judge found that a statutory threat is coextensive with a constitutionally-unprotected threat because of Ninth Circuit precedent).
I think Bernstein has pretty much admitted that he is wrong and has misconstrued the basic issue, though he describes it more benignly as "burying the lede." The phrase "at least arguably," for a proposition that he does not actually attempt to defend, is the crutch he uses to avoid flatly admitting his mistake.
The very fact that police were advising Jews not to enter the synagogue but to go home to avoid conflict established there was a significant threat of violence.