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Court Upholds Three-Day Suspension of "Third-Grade Math and Science Teacher" for Maintaining "LGBTQ+"-Themed Books in Classroom
An excerpt from Monday's long decision by Judge Douglas Cole (S.D. Ohio) in Cahall v. Cole New Richmond Exempted Village School Dist. Bd. of Ed.:
Plaintiff Karen Cahall is a third-grade math and science teacher …. The District, acting through one of the other individual Defendants—Superintendent Tracey Miller—imposed a three-day unpaid suspension on Cahall, asserting that she had violated the District's "controversial issues" policy based on certain reading materials she made available to the students in her classroom….
Cahall maintains a collection of books in her classroom that she makes available to students to read during in-class free time, but that she does not otherwise use in connection with instructing the students. The instant controversy arose when a parent complained about some of the books that Cahall included in that collection. In particular, in light of recent events that had occurred at the school (more on that below), Cahall decided to add four books to her collection: Ana on the Edge; The Fabulous Zed Watson; Hazel Bly and the Deep Blue Sea; and Too Bright to See.
As Cahall describes them, these books "each deal with characters who are LGBTQ+ and are coming to terms with feeling different and excluded simply because they are LGBTQ+." According to Cahall, the books "serve to reinforce [her] sincerely held moral and religious beliefs that all children, including children who are LGBTQ+ or the children of parents who are LGBTQ+, deserve to be respected, accepted, and loved for who they are."…
Cahall says her decision to add these books to her classroom collection grew out of what she describes as an earlier "controversy in the New Richmond District." According to Cahall, just before the 2021–22 school year, the District was considering allowing teachers to "wear Rainbow stickers on their name tags, or to display them on laptop cases or desk nameplates to show that [the teachers] were safe for LGBTQ+ students to confide in or to seek advice from." The District was also considering whether to provide students forms on which they could designate their "preferred gender identity preferred pronouns and name."
Word got out, though, and the District received "numerous complaints from community members" opposing those policies. As a result, the Board elected not to move forward with either plan. That in turn led still other members of the New Richmond community, this time those who supported LGBTQ+ rights, to register their disapproval of that decision at a public Board meeting on September 21, 2021. But that did not change the Board's decision.
After the debate and concerned about how societal prejudice might impact LGBTQ+ students, Cahall conducted research in an effort to "educate herself regarding the emotional support needed by LGBTQ+ youth." Those efforts convinced her that these students had higher rates of "anxiety and depression," were more likely to consider or attempt suicide, and had "higher rates of alcohol and/or drug use." She also discovered that they often "experience[] difficulty and delay in obtaining mental health care."
In an effort to address those concerns and provide LGBTQ+ youth access to "safe spaces" and "safe people," Cahall added the four books mentioned above to her classroom collection. The collection itself consists of nearly 100 books, which are stored in bins. Students are free to grab books from the bins to read during free time, but, as noted above, Cahall does not assign, or teach from, the books….
Cahall claimed that the suspension was based on an unconstitutionally vague policy, but the court disagreed:
The Board adopted the policy in 2009. It governs the school's approach to the "consideration of controversial issues" in the classroom, and in particular imposes limitations on "the introduction and proper educational use of controversial issues." The policy goes on to define a "controversial issue" as "a topic on which opposing points of view have been promulgated by responsible opinion or likely to arouse both support and opposition in the community." As for the limitations relating to controversial issues, the policy provides that they "may not be initiated by a source outside the schools unless prior approval has been given by the principal." And the policy goes on to say that "[w]hen controversial issues have not been specified in the course of study, the Board will permit the instructional use of only those issues which may have been approved by the principal." According to Cahall (and confirmed by the discipline letter she attaches to her Complaint), the Superintendent concluded she had violated this policy.
[T]he Supreme Court has expressly … [held that] "'[a] plaintiff who engages in some conduct that is clearly proscribed cannot complain of the vagueness of the law as applied to the conduct of others.'" …
That requirement imposes an insurmountable hurdle for Cahall. She argues that the terms "controversial issue" and "instructional program" in the policies are too vague. And in some abstract sense, that might be true. The exact contours of each phrase may be difficult for a "person of ordinary intelligence" to discern. But there is no question that, on the facts here, Cahall knew that the LGBTQ+-themed books that she placed in the classroom related to a "controversial issue." The policy defined "controversial issue" as including "a topic … likely to arouse both support and opposition in the community."
Indeed, Cahall was aware that LGBTQ+ issues had done just that. In response to the District's stated intention to consider being more receptive and open to such issues, parents had complained. And in response to the District's subsequent decision to retract from that position (based on those parents' complaints), other parents complained. In short, the topic was not merely "likely to arouse both support and opposition in the community," it in fact had done so.
And Cahall knew that. Indeed, in her Complaint, she specifically notes that she added the books to her collection because of a "controversy" surrounding LGBTQ+ topics, and she did so precisely because she thought that controversy damaging to the emotional health of LGBTQ+ students in her third-grade class. A teacher's desire to protect her students' emotional health is a laudable sentiment. But against this backdrop, she, or any other reasonable person of ordinary intelligence, should have known that whatever the precise contours of a "controversial issue," there was no question that it extended to the books at issue here.
Nor is there any meaningful doubt that, under the District's controversial topics policies, she should have known that making the books available to students in her classroom might subject her to discipline. As noted, both the formal policy … and the administrative guidance … make clear that books about controversial topics require pre-approval from the Principal before a teacher includes the books in her classroom supplies and makes them available to students.
Indeed, the guideline seems even broader than the policy. It covers the "selection of resource materials" for the District generally, and it provides that "[n]o print … materials which are not part of the District's basic or supplementary materials are to be used with students without prior review and approval." Certainly, the books (i.e., resource materials) that Cahall unilaterally selected to add to her in-class library were not "part of the District's basic or supplementary materials," so she perforce should have known that "prior review and approval" was necessary before they were "used with students." That the books also addressed what she knew to be "controversial topics" only heightened the prospect that discipline might be forthcoming.
At bottom, the Court agrees with Cahall that the policies here could have been drafted more clearly. And the Court even acknowledges that other teachers in other situations may lack adequate notice that the conduct in which they are engaged may subject them to disciplinary consequences under these policies. But, on the facts as alleged here, Cahall reasonably should have known that she faced the prospect of discipline. And that means that her void-for-vagueness challenge fails as a matter of law. Moreover, in light of the facts pleaded in her Complaint, there is no way that Cahall could address this shortcoming, so the Court dismisses this claim with prejudice.
The court also added,
Cahall does not base her vagueness challenge here on her First Amendment rights to free expression. And that is probably a wise choice in light of (1) case law holding that teachers do not have a First Amendment right to make "curricular and pedagogical choices" of their own liking, as well as (2) case law more generally limiting the scope of First Amendment protection in connection with public-employee work-related speech.
Tabitha Justice and Brian L. Wildermuth (Subashi, Wildermuth & Justice) represent defendants.
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"Eight-year-olds, Dude."
Who thinks its appropriate to have lgbt books in a 3rd grade classroom?
Who thinks its appropriate to turn teaching focus away from core skills 3rd graders should be learning that are needed to advance and learn higher skills?
I do. Heather has two mommies is for children 5-7 years old. Why shouldn't it be used for children that age?
If you have to ask....
And others don't, obviously. So what's the solution?
Perhaps each locality can decide for themselves whether they want schools that teach kids to chop off their penises, or not.
I would wager money you do not have children.
I would wager money you do not have children.
And I hope like hell that you'd win that bet.
There are vastly more important subjects children need to learn at that age.
Why is that so difficult of a concept for you to grasp
1) Humans can, it turns out, multitask. They can learn science and math and English and social studies and foreign languages, all at the same age! (Well, probably bookkeeper_joe can't.)
2) Once again, your comment has literally nothing to do with the facts of this case, which is not about what was being taught.
Humans are, in fact, terrible at multi-tasking, unless the tasks are walking and something else. Even if you're learning multiple topics at the same age, you're not doing it at the same time, which is what multi-tasking would be.
And whether humans can or can't multi-task has absolutely nothing to do with whether they should waste some of their limited bandwidth on topics that are unimportant, or maybe even anti-important.
This was during free time for students.
So predetermined to be wasted, but not predetermined to be wasted on something a substantial part of the community would consider to be worse than worthless.
I repeat: have you ever been in third grade? You said "Yes, obviously," but everything you write says otherwise. Sometimes lessons go more quickly than expected. Some students finish their in-class work, or their quizzes, before the rest of the class is done. Free time need not be "premeditated," and free time for 8 year olds is not inherently "wasted" anyway.
Purely a consequence of the decision to have everybody advance in lock step at whatever rate the 95th percentile student can handle, resulting in most of the students having to waste some of their classroom time.
I wonder why the teacher's title wasn't MultiTask Teacher and the class wasn't called "LGBT Studies for 3rd Graders"?
Exactly the point. She’s a Math and Science teacher. She’s given a captive audience of children for the purposes of teaching them math and science.
Inspiring them to read the Iliad is not her job. Likewise inducting them into her views of social norms. These are not the reasons for which she is given temporary control of your kiddies.
Maybe every parent of the children in her class would be OK with her providing the Iliad in her book bin. If so there’ll be no complaints. But maybe one or two think it’s a bit bloodthirsty for 8 year olds or maybe too white toxic masculiney. If it’s off her topic and there’s not unanimity about her off topic topics then it’s an obvious no-no.
They’re not your children, hun. Stick to math.
No, that's not even a little bit the point. This wasn't part of the class curriculum, so the teacher's title (or the class's title) is irrelevant.
No, it wasn't part of the curriculum.
In fact, if it HAD been part of the curriculum, the school board would have been looking at a very bad time at the next board meeting.
As DMN is pointing out, your vision of carefully regimented 3rd grade schedules doesn't track.
This wasn't part of the class curriculum, so the teacher's title (or the class's title) is irrelevant.
So I think we're agreed then that the teacher's book bin has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with her job. It's her own private gig. Which is exactly the point - she's not hired to play her private gig, she's hired to teach math and science. Whatever her private gig might be - LGBTQ+?!!!& books, "interesting" photos, cuddly toys, the Iliad, Vote Kamala stickers, cupcakes, the oppression of Native Americans, quilting* - she has no standing to be offering it in the classroom
Cahall maintains a collection of books in her classroom that she makes available to students to read during in-class free time
"In class free time" is part of the school supervised day. In her classroom.
If I wished to "educate" kiddies in school in their in class free time with my ideas of LGBTQery, or even the Iliad, I would not be allowed in to deposit my books etc in her classroom. Rightly so. She's doing this private gig in school.
She can entice kiddies into her own private home with readings from the Iliad, LGBTQ etc books, "interesting" photos, cupcakes, as she pleases, and take her chances with the cops taking a dim view of what she's up to. With eight year olds.
* OK you could probably work some math into quilting.
You are misunderstanding third grade.
Teachers are not going to be slavishly focused on their subjects at that age.
Doesn’t mean she can go against management, but I wonder sometimes if certain posters here were ever kids.
I will pose to you the same question I posed to Brett: have you ever been in third grade?
But in any case, your rant is misplaced. There is no law, rule, regulation or directive that she not have non-curricular materials in her classroom. The only issue here is a requirement that she get pre-approval for controversial ones.
And — as described in the OP — she's not claiming she has some inherent right to have these materials in her room; she's complaining only that she was arbitrarily disciplined for violating a vague rule.
I remember third grade unpleasantly well, actually. I entered 1st grade already reading at an adult level, only to suffer the horrors of Dick and Jane.
She was not arbitrarily disciplined for violating a vague rule, is the problem. The rule, though there might have been edge cases as with any rule, was not vague, and she had consciously decided to violate it.
3rd grade was a very long time ago, so my memories are hazy.
But I do not recall any concept that would equate to "in class free time." There might occasionally have been 10 minute tests that the sharper children might complete a minute or two before the end. But any spare couple of minutes would have been spent either thinking about something important like food, or a prank to be played on the teacher; or just staring into space thinking about how much nicer it would be to be outside playing ball of some kind. No time for reading a book.
And if you finished early ... but got something wrong, the teacher would let you know bigly that you could have used those last couple of minutes checking your work.
I'm pretty confident that there was absolutely nothing about children with two mommies, pregnant people with beards, or anything remotely to do with sex or reproduction. In biology class I remember cutting up a locust, but that was probably 4th grade.
She tried to insert it into her curriculum, albeit subtly / very subtly so as to not get caught, yet insert it just the same.
She did not try to insert it into her curriculum. Do you know what the meaning of any of the words you use mean?
again lying - subtle difference between active and passive insertion in the curriculum.
There is no such thing as "passive insertion" — again, utter unfamiliarity with the English language on your part; insertion is inherently active — and this was not part of the curriculum.
If you're going to be a pedant, and its obviously a reflex action for you, at least be a competent one. "Passive insertion" is an excellent description of what the teacher was doing.
She inserted the books she wanted to be read into the collection in her classroom - the active bit - hoping and intending that some of the children would complete the operation by picking up a book and reading it - the passive bit (passive from the teacher's perspective.)
Much the same applies to the actual math curriculum. The subject of, say, rounding off numbers may be inserted into the curriculum (the active bit.) It is then hoped and expected that the child will "get it" and absorb the concept. That's within the child's control.
If you were to insert into your classroom a bowl of candies laced with weedkiller, hoping and intending that some of the children would pick up a candy and start sucking it - then if a child does that and so gets seriously sick, you have got the consequences you were looking for, including the legal ones.
For the same reason we shouldn’t have a picture of Muhammad in a third grade math classroom.
Because you're afraid religious extremists will violently attack the classroom if the material is there?
You really think we should have pictures of Muhammad in third grande Math class even if we don’t think religious extremists will attack?
We shouldn’t have pictures of Muhammad in third grade math class because it creates divisions that distract from teaching math.
Do you think a teacher who wants to teach kids to be tolerant of people who want to have intimate relations with sheep should be allowed to have books about having intimate relations with sheep in the classroom?
I do not think books about anyone having intimate relations with anyone or anything is age appropriate for a third grade classroom. Do you have any evidence that any of these books have any content that is age inappropriate?
I do, if the content is otherwise age appropriate. (I take no position on these particular books, about which I have no knowledge and don't care to spend enough time to learn.)
Who thinks that bookkeeper_joe didn't bother to read the post before commenting, since this question of his is unrelated to the facts of this situation?
The school should be focusing on what 3rd graders need to learn
"In the latest National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) data from 2024, Mississippi's fourth-grade reading scores were significantly higher than California's. Mississippi's 219 scale score surpassed the national average of 214, while California's score was 212, below the national average. "
It’s pretty straightforward — once the books touched on a known controversial issue, she needed to clear them with the principal first. At the same time, the board may wish to identify and even support some “controversial” topics, since their definition — “a topic on which opposing points of view have been promulgated by responsible opinion or likely to arouse both support and opposition in the community” — is broad enough to sweep in almost anything nowadays.
These are 3rd graders - Whether you agree or disagree with the topic, it has absolutely zero business in a 3rd grade classroom.
The court didn’t weigh in on whether the subject matter belonged in a 3rd-grade classroom, and I’m not either. The reasoning was procedural: once it was a known controversial topic under district policy, she needed principal approval first. My only point was that the limits could be defined more clearly. In the end, it’s the board’s prerogative — and another board might draw the lines differently. That’s their call, not mine.
I agree that the decision was procedural.
My issue is why would anyone believe it is appropriate in a 3rd grade classroom.
A - its entirely inappropriate for that age
B - There are vastly more important math, science, reading skills for that age child to learn. Why divert time to other far less important topics.
Whether it’s appropriate isn’t really the issue — the board sets the policy, and if the community disagrees, that’s how it gets resolved. The books weren’t part of instruction but an optional classroom library, like the shelves my 2nd grade teacher kept for free reading. I was also surprised to see a dedicated 3rd grade math teacher — we didn’t have that kind of specialization until much later. Of course, that was a long time ago.
Keldonric 5 minutes ago
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"Whether it’s appropriate isn’t really the issue —"
From a legal perspective that is true.
From an educational perspective the appropriateness the only issue. As noted above "
A - its entirely inappropriate for that age
B - There are vastly more important math, science, reading skills for that age child to learn. Why divert time to other far less important topics.
"Why divert time to other far less important topics."
Those future left-wingers don't make themselves, you know. They need to be nurtured from an early age or they might grow up to be conservatives...
They need to be nurtured from an early age or they might grow up to be conservatives is some truly impressive 'everyone is just like me and if they aren't there's a sinister reason why'
'Gay people exist' is not a plot to mint leftists.
Keldronic has the right of it - this is a procedural/line of authority issue.
Everyone trying to make it otherwise seems to be rolling in either as a puritan, or a weirdo.
You're the only weirdo.
The legal issue is procedural
The important issue is what children should be learning at that age.
Bret is explaining one of the reasons woke leftists want to teach inappropriate subjects to children.
Agree or disagree with the subject matter, this is how things should work: local self-determinism. The board set a policy, the teacher went outside it, the rule was enforced, and the court upheld it. That’s a clean chain of accountability.
It IS a plot to reproduce gays.
Just look at the data since the Democrat Supremacists starting grooming children in schools.
You can not deny what the data say. Disparate impact theory suggests we can infer motive by looking at outcomes.
The data say LGBT identification is on a dramatic rise. That cannot happen if LGBT is a biological phenomena. Therefore there is a plot to mint queers and subsequently a likely Democrat Supremacist.
Just to be clear about a point, disparate impact theory is not about inferring motive from outcomes. It's about saying that in applicable contexts, motive doesn't matter.
Nah, that's just the typical abuse of the concept. It actually IS about inferring motives from outcomes, because disparate outcomes are not actually legally relevant unless the product of improper motives.
Just curious, David, what would DIT say about public schools and the increase in LGBT identification?
As always, the confidence you have in the accuracy of your opinions bears no relation to the actual accuracy of those opinions.
Sarcastr0, left-wingers are inverse coo-coos.
Coo-coo birds lay their eggs in other birds' nests, removing an egg so that the count stays right, and then dump all the cost of raising their offspring on those other birds.
Liberals fail to have children, and make up for it by taking over positions of cultural transmission in order to raise other people's children to be liberals, in the place of the children they don't have.
Inverse coo-coos.
Legally, it's a procedural issue. As Joe notes, I'm just explaining WHY it would occur to a third grade math teacher to stock her classroom with Alphabet Soup literature, some thing no sane person would do.
Liberals have kids, Brett.
And people can accept gay people without being indoctrinated.
It's fucking nuts you don't think people can disagree with you just naturally, and there's gotta be a vast conspiracy behind it. Like, how can you not see how insane that sounds?
This teacher apparently thought that the lgbtq propaganda books were needed to indoctrinate the kids.
As noted above, both of your comments are stupid and wrong. It's not entirely inappropriate, and nobody was diverting time.
It is not just inappropriate subject matter. It is sexual propaganda promoting perverted sexual activities, for the twisted purposes of the teacher.
He tries to convince everyone he is not a leftists - yet he not only exposes himself as a leftists, he exposes himself as a woke leftists.
Both my comments right on the money.
Did you ever consider that you're just so woefully ignorant of politics — as you are about all other subjects — that you don't understand what "leftist" means? Being opposed to right wing authoritarianism does not make one "leftist"; it makes one a decent person. I am for free markets, private property, lower taxes, a vastly smaller welfare state, much less regulation, the second amendment, school vouchers. I think gender ideology is not even a coherent concept. I oppose racial and other identity preferences. I generally reject the notion of disparate impact. I don't think public school teachers have a personal right to teach what they want. I think the 1A trumps public accommodation laws. While I want to eliminate a lot of the laws that the police enforce, I do not want to defund them. I don't think Israel is a settler colonial state. I think that although there were many bad actions by the U.S. in foreign policy over the decades, we were — until Trump, anyway — generally on the right side of world affairs, and our enemies on the wrong side. That's just off the top of my head.
DN - doing is his twisted best to justify inappropriate topics for 3rd graders
Typo; I meant to say "gender identity."
What "sexual activities" — perverted or otherwise — were contained in any of these books?
They are LGBTQ+ books. LGBTQ is all about sexual activities. There is no way around that.
WTF are you talking about?
It's 3rd grade Math.
Yeah, we wouldn't want people to be able to speak about controversial issues...
You need to learn the difference between people and children. It's a basic concept.
You need to learn about not forcing your fucked up "values" on other people. You have no idea what third and fourth graders are able to take in and understand. These books aren't about sex, but rather about kids who have two male or two female parents.
Are you shouting that in the mirror? Because you should be.
They weren’t, actually.
To be clear, I am not arguing that they were inappropriate. They were certainly not books with graphic descriptions of sexual conduct.
I’m old enough to feel that there’s no need to discuss such matters at an early age, but I don’t see the harm either. It’s not like kids will not be exposed to LGBTQ ideas not too much later in life. That ship has sailed, that Norwegian blue has shuffled off the mortal coil
I miss the days when people came here mostly to discuss legal issues with a little bit of social commentary thrown in. Now it seems the legal discussion takes up a very small portion of the comments and the bulk of folks just come here to throw insults and to morally preen.
If there's no harm, there's no point, because the harm/point are just opposite sides of the controversy.
If they were expected to lack effect, the teacher wouldn't have bothered. Harm is just a different opinion about that effect.
In a math class, a controversial issue should be, "Division by zero; Threat or menace?"
Read the entire post, Brett. The books had nothing to do with the math curriculum, it was for kids to read in their occasional free time.
And it's not even a math class!
Yes, I know that the books had nothing to do with the math curriculum.
If you're in a math class, and you've got free time, you've got time to be doing more math. OK, I was a math nerd, not everybody is, so let me amend that:
If you're in ANY sort of class in 3rd grade, and your having free time is unavoidable, any time filler should be utterly uncontroversial.
Because as a 3rd grade teacher, IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO INTRODUCE THE STUDENTS TO CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS.
If you're a math teacher, IT IS DOUBLY NOT YOUR JOB TO INTRODUCE THE STUDENTS TO CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS UNRELATED TO MATH.
Thus, as a third grade math teacher, the only controversial topic in class should be, "Division by zero, threat or menace?" Because it's NOT controversial, and IS math.
Have you ever been in third grade?
Also, again: she wasn't a math teacher.
1. Yes, obviously.
2. Why do you insist on lying like this about the obvious? The very first words of the OP are, "Plaintiff Karen Cahall is a third-grade math and science teacher".
A math and science teacher, is, trivially, a math teacher.
Just additionally a science teacher.
Did you actually have a point besides reminding everybody that you're annoyingly pedantic?
Brett Bellmore 2 hours ago
"Did you actually have a point besides reminding everybody that you're annoyingly pedantic?"
Does DN have a point other than reminding everyone that he is far left
David Nieporent 2 hours ago
"Also, again: she wasn't a math teacher."
Another piece of BS - Math and science teacher !!!!
Someone talked about the heckler's veto the other day, pretty much true here... I mean I have Richard Scarry books for my toddler maybe talking pigs are against God and should be removed...I don't know where the limit is?
I guess this is the way they wanted to ensure teachers only used books from their list.
These people are so unsure and unconfident in their "values" that they fear that any little things might lead their kids astray. It's pathetic.
All their talk about "grooming" is pure projection; they know that their own religious superstitions require grooming from a very young age to convince people to believe in them.
It's pathetic indeed. It's also creepy and weird how they approach the issue altogether.
Richard Scarry did have Gold Bug -- secret monetarist indoctrination!
🙂
It is not apparent from reading the opinion whether these books are still available to the schoolchildren. The teacher was disciplined by means of a three day unpaid suspension, but the opinion does not state whether removal of the books was part of the penalty.
Hey, teacher, leave them kids alone!
Inappropriate books belong in the school library, not the classroom.
3rd grade Math teacher.
Democrat Supremacists are sick and immoral.
How long before some Democrat Supremacist will come in here and tut-tut us for "nut picking" or "focusing on the wrong issue" or "teachers need more money!"
Why would this need a "long decision"?
The teacher knew the rules.
The teacher broke the rules.
The teacher got punished for braking the rules.
Agreed. The court probably wrote a little long to shut down the vagueness argument, not because the facts were complicated. It seems pretty simple: if a topic might be considered controversial, the principal has discretion.
Slippery Slope, first "Ana on the Edge" next it's "The Diary of a Young Girl" (or "The Diary of Anne Frank" for you non-reading knuckleheads)
Read my mom's copy of "Fear of Flying" in 6th grade, Precocious I was.
Frank
I read my mom's copy of B.F.Skinner's "Behavorism".
Note to parents of bright young kids: Don't leave the psychology texts out, it was the next week that I wired a transformer to my clock radio and ran electrodes under my bedsheets, and conditioned myself into being a morning person...
There's an easy answer to this, rephrase it from the opposite point of view, the hypothetical teacher "Hacall".
I have little doubt that Cahall would throw a conniption fit that such books were even tolerated in the school.
Do you understand the concept of the separation of church and state?
You obviously don't
What has that got to do with LGBQWERTY and straight?
do you understand the concept of age appropriateness for various subjects.
Why teach algebra to a 3rd grader?
They have to start their grooming young.
Who decides "age appropriateness?" You, I'm guessing. No thank you.
Why not teach algebra to a 3rd grader, if they've already mastered addition, subtraction, multiplication and division? Ideally, schools should be set up so each individual student progresses as fast as they are capable of through each area of study. Rather than at lock step at the pace that the 95th percentile student is capable of, and most of them bored out of their skulls.
Brett - you are correct - if the 3rd grader has mastered the pre requisites necessary to understand algebra, then there is good reason to teach it to that individual. The point is virtually no 3rd grader is going to have the ability to comprehend the topic at that age, so why divert learning a subject that they are not going to understand instead of teaching vastly more important subjects needed to build a foundation to go to the next step.
Why the fuck do you keep pretending the teacher was teaching this? This. Was. For. When. Students. Had. Free. Time.
"This was for when the students had free time" and "the teacher was teaching this" are not mutually exclusive. The teacher went out of her way to provide these materials to the students, with the announced intention of altering their thinking.
That is "teaching". She was teaching off-curriculum controversial topics in their nominally free time.
Yes, they are.
No, providing curated materials to communicate what you want the students to end up believing is just another way of teaching. What makes it teaching is that the teacher intended that they learn something as a result, and that is undeniably present here.
yes another form of teaching. It takes a serious level lying to deny that fundamental fact.
Really cant sugar coat the deception.
DN - your BS is absolute BS
Its a sick BS attempting to justify teaching and/or encouraging the introduction of a topic that has no place in a 3rd grade classroom.
The teacher's legal excuse was that she had a constitutional right to promote her personal lgbtq+ values.
DN Why the blank do you insist she wasnt teaching the subject. The op states that is the reason she wanted to bring the books to the classroom so they are available!
WTF else would that mean - she brought them into the classroom for reason. Not direct instruction, but indirect - if nothing else to skirt around the direct instruction.
It is still not appropriate.
None of your woke BS can justify the inappropriateness.
Because she wasn't teaching the subject.
Exactly. Which does not fit any definition of "teaching."
DN defending the indefensible.
DN - you are beyond BS at this point . It defines you defending exposing 3rd graders to inappropriate topics.
Indirect teaching is still a form of teaching.
What topics were inappropriate, and why?
"Indirect teaching" is a phrase you made up and doesn't have anything to do with leaving a book on a shelf somewhere.
direct v indirect
you are digging a deep trying to distort the facts.
Hypothetical hypocrisy is always the worst kind!
Fake umbrage is always the funniest.
Plaintiff argued that her display of the controversial books had a religious motivation. Accepting that argument would go against Stone v. Graham, which said schools shouldn't post the Ten Commandments. (The Supreme Court may have an opportunity to overrule that case in a year or two.)
This was an ordinary vagueness claim, judged based on the way the law was applied to the complaining party. Should a reasonable person in her position have known the books would be controversial? Yes.
If a law had said "parents must not make controversial statements on school grounds" it would be judged more strictly. But a teacher in her role as a teacher doesn't have as many First Amendment rights as parents.
She had a religious motivation to groom third-graders into perverted sexual situations? What religion is it?
If that is true, she should be fired. Or jailed for trying to corrupt children.
Roger S, if the available reading list had books about opposite sex parents rearing children, would you regard that as "grooming" the children to be straight?
Accusations of "grooming" and glibly calling folks "groomers" is a canard.
The answer is No.
She got off easy. Project 2025 calls for people like her to be executed.
I shit you not. I am not making this up. It is really in the document.
Let's add that document to the third-grade reading shelf.
Which page? I haven't read the whole thing, but I found nothing like that.
Page 5 and 54.
Spoiler, not that anybody needs it. Nothing on pages 5 or 54 says anything about executing anybody. In fact, page 54 had nothing even tangentially relevant to say.
I stand corrected. It is on page 5 and 554.
Ah, I see where you're coming from now.
On page 5, speaking of pornography, "Educators and public librarians who purvey it should be classed as registered sex offenders. "
On 554, "The next conservative Administration should therefore do everything possible to obtain finality for the 44 prisoners currently on federal death row. It should also pursue the death penalty for applicable crimes—particularly heinous crimes involving violence and sexual abuse of children—until Congress says otherwise
through legislation."
I'm pretty sure you're over-reading this.
It says: The noxious tenets of “critical race theory” and “gender ideology” should be excised from curricula in every public school in the country.
I'm pretty sure we can do that without having to execute anybody...
While in most of the Moose-lum World people like her already get executed.
First, to the knuckleheads who are like: "Teach Math and ONLY Math." Kids need breaks. Sometimes, kids finish working before other kids. So, they may want to grab a book and read quietly. Also, part of school is learning to live in society which has, I know this will scare some of you, people that are different. Learning those people exist is actually good for society.
Second, since the Supreme Court gave the religious kooks the right to ban books (Mahmoud), it seems fair that us non-kooks should be able to use that as reasoning as well. She apparently tried. We know if this is reversed, that the book banners religious beliefs are way more important. Good society we have here.
What you are saying is that the teacher had an ideological purpose in forcing her perverted views on third-graders, and that improves her legal arguments.
No. It would not be as bad if the teacher merely wanted a variety of books. But she wanted to indoctrinate the kids with perverted sexual activities.
Fascists don't understand consent, example #4,297,621. Allowing and forcing are antonyms.
Left-wingers don't accept that in the case of minors, the consent is supposed to be that of the parents.
Are you joining the DMN is a left-winger crew? I mean, it's about time; you've been on a path towards Roger S-style posting for a while.
Also, if the child isn't being forced, what's with all the rhetoric like they are? Indoctrinate, forced, etc.
Again, this is an anodyne line of authority case. It's amazing that in the year of our lord 2025 you got people who are obligated to come in and start yelling about gay indoctrination.
I've been part of the DMN is a left-winger crew all along. I didn't point it out because it has been bloody obvious.
It's indoctrination, with the teacher dictating the doctrine. Indoctrination doesn't require coercion.
The school had a policy that teachers could not subject students to controversial materials without approval, you'd have to be a mental case to not realize that these were controversial materials.
What's amazing at this point is that you're still trying to run that "Nothing to see, move along" bit when somebody gets caught doing this.
Yes quite obvious that DN is a left winger - Its been know for quite a while.
"Yes quite obvious that DN is a left winger - Its been know for quite a while."
Known by whom? Disagreement with you =/= left wing...
Having books lying around for during free time isn't 'dictating' or 'indoctrinating.' Even if you don't like the book.
I agree as to the line of authority issue.
That itself disposes of the issue.
I'm not at all sure these books are controversial. You're kind of an out of touch bigot when it comes to gay stuff, and your appeal to 'you'd have to be a mental case' doesn't help you case..
Feel free to be amazed. That makes sense from someone who is in the magical thinking level of bigotry, as though books that mention gay people are a powerful kind of wizardry that once they're open *poof* it's wall-to-wall to leftist gaylords.
Your irrational fear of anodyne things reminds me of the antisemite who didn't want blue ornaments on the Christmas tree. Because 'that's how they get you!'
"I'm not at all sure these books are controversial"
Heck, there were objections to the Harry Potter books, because witches and what have you.
I'm OK with a school board telling parents "We think the H.P books are awesome, we're keeping them in the school, and if you don't like it vote us out". I'm also OK with a school board going "Geez, folks are getting spun up, get rid of Hogwarts, and now let's talk about how to get the achievement scores up, or how to pay for the new roof" or whatever.
Parents can buy the books they like for their kids. Mine left a copy of "Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex (but were afraid to ask)" on one of the bookshelves for us kids to read at our leisure. They weren't asking why the local (pretty conservative) schools didn't have it in the classroom.
ETA: I searched for a copy. Used copies are $4! I doubt the subject matter has changed much. Aaaaand my query found that Amazon has an 'Adult Naughty Books' section. I'd list the titles of some of the coloring books, but this is a family blog.
2nd paragraph is my take as well. I may or may not disagree, but the key is to have a process and people in place.
I guess my issue is personally getting mad and then calling it a controversy seems a bit of a self-licking ice cream cone.
LIke, at some point there's not a controversy. I liked to wear these 'teach the controversy' shirts for a while. I had the 5 elements and the fake moon landing. https://amorphia-apparel.com/teach/
I've phased them out since I got yelled at in an airport for mocking religion...oy.
"getting mad and then calling it a controversy"
Given that parents had already made a fuss with the school board, controversy seems like an appropriate label.
The Harry Potter books weren't controversial *to me*, I loved 'em, but they were to some folks.
At some point it’s not a controversy, it’s a crank.
I’m not saying that happened here.
But look at this thread!
LGBTQ is purely about people having sex.
The subject is how the left creates new members of itself.
Perverts! Everywhere!
This is why you need rules and a person. Because mere recognition of someone being unhappy gives cranks the steering wheel.
"At some point it’s not a controversy, it’s a crank."
I think that people who object to Harry Potter are cranks. Their objections still constitute a controversy. Merriam-Webster's definition is "a discussion marked especially by the expression of opposing views". If someone is saying "we want XXXX out of the school" and someone else says "we want to keep it", that's a controversy.
"At some point it’s not a controversy, it’s a crank."
At some point, it's enough of the population that you have to stop calling it "crank", or just admit you don't like democracy.
Absaroka - there has to be a line, though, right? Otherwise anyone can hijack policy.
Is that line mere number of people? That seems to be setting aside your own judgement.
I do think number matters, but I also get to have my own opinion about what's ridiculous.
Do I get to make policy based on it? Not if the system is well designed! But I do get to say so.
Brett - I'm not sure you know what democracy is anymore, with all the conspiracies you believe explain results you don't care for.
Suffice to say you haven't read my comments here about what I believe should happen if you're making that attack.
Which is amazing since they include comments you've replied to.
"Absaroka - there has to be a line, though, right? Otherwise anyone can hijack policy."
Not sure what you are getting at. You seem to think controversy has a definition different from its synonyms. I'm not seeing that.
If I'm on the school board and someone comes in complaining that the Library has a copy of "My Friend Flicka", because horses should be wild rather than domesticated, that's a controversy. I will care a lot less than if half the district parents are outside with pitchforks because the library has a description to Hustler, but both are controversies. I'm just not sure what point you are trying to make by using a definition other than the dictionary one???
If I'm on the school board and someone comes in complaining that the Library has a copy of "My Friend Flicka", because horses should be wild rather than domesticated, that's a controversy.
I disagree - 1 person doesn't make a controversy. Not in this communal sense.
Otherwise, as I explained, it's impracticable. Cranks get to be dismissed as cranks, not elevated as policymakers.
"I disagree - 1 person doesn't make a controversy. Not in this communal sense"
I eat my words. I didn't have that sense, googled for the definition and looked at the first definition I found and it didn't mention any that any particular scale of dispute was needed. But I just googled again and looked at the first dozen definitions, and a majority of them do have a scale requirement.
"Mine left a copy of "Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex (but were afraid to ask)"
Was it left for you when you were in the 3rd grade?
Can't remember. It was there as far back as I can remember.
But the point is, that's a decision parents can make. They don't have to rely on the school.
That book is filled with weird inaccuracies. I would object to it on those grounds alone.
"Having books lying around for during free time isn't 'dictating' or 'indoctrinating.' Even if you don't like the book."
You can say that as many times as you like, and it doesn't make it true.
Having books 'lying around" that present only one side of an active controversy IS indoctrinating.
I again take issue with your charactarization of an 'active controversy.'
If nobody reads the book, who is being indoctrinated?
'Books being available is indoctrination' is a book burner mindset.
"Books being available for only one side of an active controversy" is an indoctrinator's mindset.
So did the teacher supply books with contrary views? Of course not.
Consent does not apply to enticing the sexual interests of 8-year-old kids.
You are mentally ill. What "sexual interests"?
David Nieporent 2 minutes ago
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Consent does not apply to enticing the sexual interests of 8-year-old kids.
"You are mentally ill. What "sexual interests"?"
That is a legitimate question that we should be asking about you. Based on your comments today attempting to justify teaching or providing lgbt materials to 3rd graders which is entirely inappropriate for that age - at least considered inappropriate by normal people, raises serious questions about your mental health and whether you should be around children.
Acknowledging the existence of gay people is not inappropriate for that age.
That is not the purpose - Quit with the BS defense
Then answer the question!
He knows the purpose.
What do you mean "the purpose"? Whose purpose? The teacher's? What do you think her purpose was, to turn third graders gay? And how could her "purpose" affect the age appropriateness of the books anyway? The books speak for themselves. She. Wasn't. Teaching. Them.
DN - Give up the lying - putting the books in the classroom for the 3rd graders to read is a form of teaching - a subtle form of teaching, a subtle form of encouraging reading of a specific subject, an indirect method of teaching , but still definitely a form of teaching.
The about post says her purpose was promoting "the emotional support needed by LGBTQ+ youth." In other words, prepare kids for sodomy.
Those are indeed "other words."
I tried asking Google AI about these books. It launched into a pro-LGBTQ defense of the books, but when I asked for details on what the books promote, it said the request goes against its guidelines.
Lets see if DN continues to defend perversion
Let's see if bookkeeper_joe continues to bigotedly insist that being gay is perversion.
What is the Q of LGBTQ, if not a synonym for perversion?
Sometimes people use it to mean "Questioning," and other times to mean "Queer." (The latter of which used to be used to mean "gay," but now seems to be more about vibes than any specific definition.) Which of those is a "synonym for perversion"?
As expected - DN continues defending his perversion to exposing kids to what is inappropriate for that age. A mental illness problem of just a pervert
As expected, bookkeeper_joe is unable to ever say anything substantive on any topic. He cannot identify a single thing inappropriate in any of those books let alone provide any reasoned explanation as to how those things are inappropriate. All he can do is keep repeating his mindless mantra.
Its takes a person with a mental illness or perversions to believe Lgbt themed books are appropriate for 3rd graders
DN you have defined yourself.
Sigh. I tried. But as the saying goes, you can't reason someone out of a position he didn't reason himself into.
Not sure I'd call being Gay a Preversion, but in much of the Moose-lum world they'll throw you off a building if they find out you are.
Rethink "Students are free to grab books from the bins to read during free time," to those students who have free time help those who do not.
Free time should not exist in any classroom unless it's for everyone at the same time. Free time is poor teaching time.
Let's put this in a format even a third grader should understand:
Q: There's a test in class on Chapter 4. Billy finishes with 15 minutes left in the class, while most of the rest of the students are still working. Billy should
A) Help the other students who are still taking the exam;
B) Read quietly until class is over.
Let Billy read *Fanny Hill.*
Unless you have some kind of prejudice against particular lifestyles.
The excerpt leads me to believe that the result was reasonable.
The analysis notes that in some cases vagueness might be a problem. Nonetheless, on these facts, not so much.
I am okay with that as a legal matter, even if I oppose the policy choices here. And, at some point, it is reasonable as a matter of policy for school administrations to limit the discretion of school teachers. "Controversial" at some point is rather open-ended.
It is probably best just to require a school administrator to check what books are supplied by the teachers. I think we generally can trust the teachers. But that could address parental concerns.
The comments here have a ridiculous amount of concern over LGBTQ content, akin to days in the past when a book about an interracial couple would have been deemed "sexual."
But "controversial" can entail a number of subjects, so the overall principle is more open-ended than that.
The alternative to admitting that the topic was controversial was coming up with some 'definition' of controversial that unmoors it from whether or not there is widespread disagreement.
It does seem some here want to declare that widespread disagreement isn't enough to make something "controversial".
Third grade has changed a lot since I was there.
Back then you only had one teacher in elementary schools who covered all topics, not a separate 'science and math' teacher who had their own classroom - you didn't start moving rooms until junior high.