The Volokh Conspiracy
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Hamas Depravity Feeds Antizionist Intellectual Depravity
For those of a certain ideological bent, Hamas atrocities show just how evil *Israel* is.
A couple of weeks ago, I attended the traveling Nova exhibit in DC, memorializing the torture, rape, murders and kidnappings of hundreds of peaceful young Israelis by Hamas terrorists at the Nova music festival on October 7, 2023. The exhibit brought back the emotions I felt in July 2024, visiting the site of Nova, Kibbutz Nir Oz, and other sites where Hamas gleefully committed the worst imaginable atrocities against any civilians they encountered: Hamas, like the Nazis, represents a sort of depraved evil that is almost impossible to fathom.
Yesterday, I had a long thread on X explaining why the antizionist ideology of people like Peter Beinart inevitably leads them to support genocidal policies toward Israeli Jews. I noted that Beinart had a brief period of soul-searching immediately after 10/7, and then went back to business as usual.
Shany Mor then pointed out that Beinart and others similarly-situated ended their brief period of soul-searching when Israel was alleged to have killed five hundred civilians in a direct attack on a hospital in Gaza. It turned out that the alleged attack never happened; rather, an Islamic Jihad missile aimed at Israel fell short, hit the hospital parking lot, and killed or wounded several dozen people. All the details implicating Israel were fabricated. Nevertheless, the initial attack provided Beinart et al. with an opportunity for a Two Minute Hate, and thereafter they snapped out of their October 7 funk and resumed their prior role as Hamas apologists and Israel-haters.
Shany then reminded me of a post he had written before the hospital-massacre-that-never-happened: "In the suicide bombing years it was precisely at the moment of a Palestinian atrocity that the rhetorical demonization of Israel would escalate. It's transparent cognitive dissonance reduction: if Palestinians just did THAT to them, then the Israelis must be even more evil."
So let's roll with that. Hamas has been a remarkably evil, depraved terrorist group at least since the 1990s, when it blew up school buses and the like to undermine the Oslo Accords and present itself to the Palestinian public as a "resistance" alternative to Fatah. But even with that as background, even five minutes of reading about or watching videos from the 10/7 atrocities, proudly filmed by Hamas terrorists themselves, gives you a window into a level of depraved evil that is hard to fathom.
As a rule, even the Nazis didn't proudly film themselves committing atrocities against children, but instead generally tried to cover it up. The natural reaction of normies to such depravity is to conclude that Hamas is, like the Nazis, an evil that must simply be eradicated. There is no possibility of it reforming, of living alongside it, of excusing it, or of justifying it.
That's normies. But if you are of a particular ideological bent, you assume the people you designate "brown" (regardless of actual hue) and "colonized" are inherently innocent. But since you reasonably can't deny Hamas's crimes (especially since they themselves filmed and uploaded them), you have to explain them. And since Hamas's terrorists' are inherently the good guys, being brown and all, the only explanation was that they were driven to madness by their oppression, by Israel. It *has* to be Israel--the putative "white" "colonizer" that's at fault, so it has to be that.
Islamist ideology? Antisemitism? Constant dehumanization of Jews in Hamas media and education? Feh! It can't be that, that would make it Hamas's fault.
So, in an amazingly daft intellectual slight of hand, Hamas's atrocities don't show how evil Hamas is, they show how evil Israel is. This is why you then must tear down posters of hostages, lest they create cognitive dissonance by portraying Israelis as victims.
And this is why they not only believe Hamas's lies and exaggerations of about Israeli conduct of the war, they actually emotionally *want* Israel to be massacring and starving Palestinians, because this then confirms their view that the entire thing, including Hamas's atrocities on 10/7, is Israel's fault.
Hamas is shrewd enough to understand this dynamic, and affirmatively welcomes civilian casualties, because it plays into the narrative that the "antizionists" want to believe, indeed must believe to sustain their ideology.
If you think this is implausible, consider the intellectual knots that Stalinists in the West from the 1930s to the 1950s (and sometimes beyond) tied themselves into, to excuse or justify Stalin's crimes. The leftist antizionists today are their intellectual, and not uncommonly literal genetic, descendants.
[Cross-posted at the Times of Israel]
UPDATE: For related thoughts, see this post by Andrew Fox, The Gaza War and the West's Reckoning:
The erosion of moral clarity within Western institutions, as revealed by the Gaza war, is deeply rooted in the intellectual decline caused by postmodern thinking. At the core of this crisis is a shift from objective truth to subjective ideology, where facts become subordinate to feelings, and moral judgment is replaced by a hierarchy of perceived victimhood.
As they say, read the whole thing.
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Amen.
For additional context, it's important to remember that Hamas didn't randomly choose October 7, 2023 to attack Israel. Israel was on the verge of signing a peace deal with Saudi Arabia and to remain relevant Hamas had to derail it by any means necessary.
By that standard, they succeeded. The talks were derailed, and it will be a very long time before they start again. But by every other measure, Hamas has completely lost this conflict.
Yes
The Nazis were elected with the donations of 20 families, 5 being in the USA. These families agreed with all Nazi views, down to their reliance on astrology. The Jews could not take on the German military. They could have visited these families and the hierarchy of the Nazi Party and gone Biblical on them. Instead of rewarding them for eradicating genocidal maniacs, the lawyer would have arrested, tried, and punished the Jews. The Jews would not only have saved themselves, but also the 80 million people killed in WWII. Multiply by 5 to get the serious injury count. That included 7 million Germans killed, not counting the million officers captured by the Soviets, and still missing. Kill 1000 demonic people, save 80 million. This is beyond the ability of the lawyer profession to manage. These families gave $5000 and made $millions from Nazi government contracts, slave labor, and Nazi plunder. These families were not punished at all, after the war. They were recruited to rebuild the German economy and became far richer than under the Nazis. The lawyer profession is beyond stupid. It is pure evil.
Instead of punishing the killers of criminals today, the government should send them a tip of $10000 a scalp. Kill a repeat violent offender, add $200 million in prevented damage to the economy, not counting the immeasurable value of human suffering prevented.
The hierarchy of the lawyer profession, including people with endowed professorships, is pure evil and catastrophically damaging to our nation.
It is still illegal in several international and US laws, executive orders to target civilians. Nothing has been learned by the lawyer profession.
So dig up Hairy Truman and charge him
What are the names of these 20 families? Source?
German Donors: Thyssen family, Krupp family, Bechstein family, Quandt family, Flick family, Porsche family, Oetker family, Reimann family, Siemens family, Bosch family, von Finck family, Deutsche Bank leadership (incl. Emil Georg von Stauss), IG Farben consortium (incl. Carl Bosch, Hermann Schmitz), Loewe family (electronics), Otto Wolff family
American Donors/Collaborators: Henry Ford, Fred C. Koch, William Rhodes Davis, Werner von Clemm, Prescott Bush (yes, father and grandfather to 2 US Presidents)
See Who Financed Hitler, by James Pool; Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler by Anthony Sutton; Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State by Götz Aly
Conservative Total Estimate (1933–1945):
Source Estimated Nazi-Era Profits (in 2023 USD equivalents)
Top 10 German firms $30–50 billion combined
U.S. corporate collaborators $3–6 billion combined
Nazi state plunder economy ≈ $200–300 billion (total economic gain incl. gold, art, labor, factory seizures) (Pretty good return for $5000 campaign donation.)
Note: These figures account for wartime profits, not postwar gains fueled by Nazi-era wealth transfers or growth from Aryanization (seizure of Jewish businesses).
Same sources. After the war, instead of being eradicated they made more money from the Allies, getting assigned to rebuild the economy of West Germany. They caused the deaths of 80 million people, $3 trillion in infrastructure damage, including to Germany.
Top 10 Nazi-linked industrial families $8–10 billion combined.
Additional unlisted Nazi-benefiting firms $5–7 billion combined.
Total gains from reintegration and export boom ~$15–17 billion
The lawyer profession is 100% responsible for the massive damage of war. It is still illegal in many ways to kill civilians. Military embedded commissars of political correctness prosecuted our warriors for killing the enemy. Our warriors are fully deterred by the lawyer profession.
I don't think that's completely accurate. The talks were derailed and it's hard to see them starting again any time soon, but it's equally hard to see any Middle Eastern country taking steps to normalize relations with Israel any time soon. Tom Friedman had a very prescient column right after the October 7 attacks, basically guessing that it was Hamas's specific objective to "trigger an Israeli overreaction, like an invasion of the Gaza Strip, that would lead to massive Palestinian civilian casualties... for Israel to invade Gaza and get enmeshed in a strategic overreach there that would make America’s entanglement in Falluja look like a children’s birthday party. We are talking house-to-house fighting that would undermine whatever sympathy Israel has garnered on the world stage."
In that sense, Hamas has gotten exactly what they were hoping for.
It's remarkably difficult for any Islamic country to have normal relations with Israel, for theological reasons.
Well I wouldn't want France or England as friends anyway
The Saudis merely hate Jews, they have a mortal fear of Iranians.
I wonder, what does having snipers shoot at people waiting in line for food feed?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/uns-world-food-program-says-israeli-tanks-and-snipers-opened-fire-on-a-crowd-seeking-aid-in-gaza
https://edition.cnn.com/2025/07/19/middleeast/israel-gaza-food-aid-shooting-intl
That is easy Martin.
It shows wavering Gazans that they will never be rid of the pestilence of Hamas. It also defeats any efforts by parties not controlled by Hamas to bring the killing to and end.
It also legitimizes your own relief efforts.
"what does having snipers shoot at people waiting in line for food feed"
We get countless videos from Gaza but none of the IDF or the food delivery guards actually shooting anyone waiting online.
Its just lies. Propaganda and you fall for it.
You fall for lies and propaganda too Bob. That's why anytime someone points to evidence of a government or organization you like misbehaving you claim its all lies. Because you fell for their propaganda.
Considering the frequency of discredited reporting by NPR, CNN, etc, Bob's assumption that the reports are lies and propaganda is warranted.
Don't take the atrocity denialist position, you'll usually be wrong.
The Baby Killing Industrial-Complex has survived pretty well with that strategy
I'll also just note that people throughout recent history have often tried to pretend that media reports of war crimes and atrocities have been lies and it did not turn out that way. So they shifted to denying that it was a big deal or that it was actually a good thing.
Lets ignore CNN's NPR, MSNBC long history of distortions and lies,
Lets ignore those "credible news organizations" repeating Hamas claims without verification.
To the contrary, the atrocity claims reported by hamas and then repeated are almost always wrong.
An Iraqi militant group claimed they shot down a US helicopter in response to the Mahmudiyah rape and killings which the US soldiers had successfully covered up. Rather than a militant group lying, it turned out to be absolutely correct.
LTG - Why change the subject?
Bob was discussing the frequent lies and propaganda from Hamas that is repeated by CNN and NPR, etc,
The subject is atrocity denial and how it rarely works out. The media and militant/terrorist groups will in fact be correct about atrocities committed by militaries and states that you like. So denialism is a losing proposition no matter what.
No - the subject is discredited claims of autrocity.
neither I nor bob has denied actual autrocities.
You’re denying them now and Bob has in the past.
Ltg - you keep accussing me of making statement that I did not make.
Neither bob or I have denied any actual atrocities - We are only pointing out that frequency that CNN , NPR etc repeat bogus reports from Hamas.
its astonishing that you cant tell the difference.
Hahahaha Joe are you really that daft? Imagine a holocaust denier saying what you just said.
The mahmudiyah rape and murders were not successfully covered up.
Five U.S. Army soldiers of the 502nd Infantry Regiment were charged with rape and murder: Specialist Paul E. Cortez (born December 1982), Specialist James P. Barker (born 1982), Private First Class Jesse V. Spielman (born 1985), Private First Class Bryan L. Howard, and Private First Class Steven Dale Green (May 2, 1985 – February 17, 2014).[2] Green was discharged from the U.S. Army for mental instability before the crimes were known by his command, whereas Cortez, Barker, and Spielman were tried by a military court martial, convicted, and sentenced to decades in prison.[2] Green was tried and convicted in a United States civilian court and sentenced to life in prison.[3]
Yeah. Not for lack of trying by soldiers and senior officers! That's the point here.
I mean, the rubble that used to be Gaza rather speaks for itself, no?
Start a war; that is what you get.
Check out films of european or japanese cities in 1946.
"Because you fell for their propaganda."
whataboutism
I pointed out that there are no videos of such killings when we have thousands of videos from the war and cellphones everywhere. Its all Hamas officials or unnamed witnesses.
Absence of evidence can be just as damning as evidence in the right circumstances.
Okay but let’s be real. You wouldn’t care if there was evidence to your satisfaction! And if you couldn’t deny it, you’d defend it!
You still won’t say whether the Cave of the Patriarch’s Massacre was good or bad!!
"You still won’t say whether the Cave of the Patriarch’s Massacre was good or bad!!"
Frustrating, isn't it?
Yes. It is is frustrating to see a person who constantly belittles and condemns others for supposedly not caring about victims to stand suspiciously silent when asked about whether he approves of a mass murder. It's doubly so when this same man asks questions and makes demands of others. Demands that are routinely met. You can dish it out but can't take.
You may think you're just playing a game with me, but you are just exposing yourself to everyone else as a hypocritical apologist for mass-murder.
suspiciously!
It was a "whataboutism" question if I recall. We weren't discussing a decades old isolated Jewish act of terror. I don't think you deserve an answer to such questions.
Plus, it annoys you.
"It was a "whataboutism" question if I recall."
You recall incorrectly:
https://reason.com/volokh/2025/06/23/monday-open-thread-111/?comments=true#comment-11100667
You were lying about me and asking me bad faith questions as usual. Which I still answered. You refused.
"I don't think you deserve an answer to such questions."
But you think you are entitled to demand answers to questions of me? What makes you deserve answers? As reprehensible as you are, I respect you enough to answer your bad faith bullshit. Why can't you do it for me?
And forget me for a second. What about everyone else? Don't they deserve to know whether you support mass-murder? Is the reason you won't answer because 1) You think its bad but saying so degrades your hard-ass bona fides? Or 2) you think it was good, but you are too much of a coward to type it out?
"Plus, it annoys you."
The mark of a true asshole. Doing things because it makes other people mad. And yeah. It does. It DOES annoy me that I have to be a a member of the bar same with a potential apologist for mass-murder. It does annoy me that you get to act this way but then accuse me of not caring about victims or otherwise lying about me. As it would and should annoy everyone. And you should be embarrassed that this is what brings you joy.
Man, touch grass as they say.
"You recall incorrectly:"
We were discussing the next mayor of NYC, you brought up something that happened decades ago on another continent! So I think I recall correctly.
"I respect you enough"
I don't respect you at all.
You've been dodging for weeks.
One might make an adverse assumption at this point.
Bob, you don't even respect YOURSELF enough to hold coherent, consistent beliefs. I'm certain no one is looking for your respect.
“We were discussing the next mayor of NYC, you brought up something that happened decades ago on another continent! So I think I recall correctly.”
And why did it come up? It didn’t come up out of nowhere. No wonder you’re not a litigator; you can’t follow a conversation at all. Imagine you trying to read a deposition transcript and then write an MSJ with reading and logic skills like this.
“I don't respect you at all.”
Thank god for that. It would be a mark of shame to be respected by a sniveling liar and hypocrite who is too much of a pussy to type out what he actually thinks even when anonymous. Imagine being respected by someone like that.
LTG,
What is shameful is your defense of Hamas that has been killing other Gazans with regularity.
Where did I defend Hamas? Was it the comment where I said they were a genocidal antisemitic terrorist organization?
When you believe and support Hamas's "allegations" over that of Israel, you defend Hamas.
Yeah. The Israeli government is always right and never does anything wrong and Hamas can never accurately report things is something only an idiot would believe.
Iraqi militants were right about many US war crimes and prisoner abuse. Al Qaeda members were right about US torture. Doesn’t require me to defend those groups to point out that sometimes the bad guys accurately account for the conduct of the “good” guys.
And indeed sometimes Israel has to admit the bad guys are actually right about an abuse or crime, and the extremist position is either “who cares?” Or “good.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/5-idf-reservists-indicted-for-severe-abuse-of-palestinian-detainee-at-sde-teiman/amp/
Right....
You believe Poland invaded Germany first in 1939 too, right? And it's just "propaganda" that it was a false flag operation by Nazi Germany....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
https://x.com/TheCradleMedia/status/1940712428171366692
> We get countless videos from Gaza but none of the IDF or the food >delivery guards actually shooting anyone waiting online.
>Its just lies. Propaganda and you fall for it.
I suspect there are some shootings, either carried out or incited by HAMAS agents. HAMAS wishes to disrupt any supply line that does not go through their hands.
But if that is true, the IDF and non-HAMAS distributors should prove it with continuous live feeds of the distribution points.
The first article quotes Hamas as a source, along with a single UN Official who is a Palestinian Muslim with a history of anti-Israel and pro-Hamas statements. The second just uses Hamas as its source. Israel denies these claims. Hamas has a history of telling extreme lies about Israel and Israelis, as well as any number of horrific human rights violations and terrorist attacks. They are not a credible source.
As always, you spread Hamas propaganda as truth because you agree with the raping, baby-killing, Islamist terrorists and hate the representative democracy that's chock full of Jews.
"Israel denies these claims."
And the US tried to cover-up My Lai.
LTG - you are doing an outstanding job today misrepresenting actual facts.
The perpertrator tried to cover up My lai, though eventually quite unsuccessfully.
The perpetrator was an entire army unit and we have records of the Nixon admin wanting to cover it up but being unable to because the pictures were already out there. So they shifted to saying it wasn’t that bad!
"US tried to cover-up My Lai."
Historic whataboutism!
It’s not whataboutism. Just pointing out that “government denies it committed atrocities” isn’t very probative!
And you are on your knees praising Hamas.
I literally called them a genocidal antisemitic terrorist organization in this thread?
I cite (with hyperlinks) reliable sources, and you assume they must be lying because you don't like the message. What does that say about you?
You linked to this CNN story: "More than 30 killed after Israeli forces open fire on people seeking food in Gaza, health ministry says"
CNN may be deemed a generally reliable source, so we can assume that CNN is accurately representing what the Gaza health ministry said. But that's not the question. The question is why the Gaza health ministry, ie Hamas, is a reliable source. Are you claiming it is?
There are, quite obviously, many difficulties in obtaining unbiased information from a war zone. Palestinians say the IDF cannot be trusted and Israel says anyone not the IDF cannot be trusted.
However, I also recall stories from early in the conflict which immediately seemed highly suspect to me and which turned out to be false (specifically, the beheaded babies story and the Al Ahli Arab Hospital story). I'm sure there have been many others.
The truth about those stories eventually came out, and the truth will eventually come out about the other "atrocities" committed during the Gaza conflict. Let's hope there is still some sort of accountability for war crimes when it does.
Hi, Martin. Do you have any criticism of Hamas?
Because Hamas is composed of sick evil bastards. Hamas delenda est.
This is ... something. Look, I get that things are simple for some people to cast in pure black and white terms- good and evil, and so on.
Which is why, if Hamas is so evil, I am surprised that Prof. Bernstein is not out there saying, "Why aren't we going after Netanyahu? After all, the US knew about cash payments to Hamas, and decided to turn a blind eye and let Israel decide.... and Netanyahu explicitly allowed HAMAS to keep getting money. Because Netanyahu wanted that enemy to stay active. That's evil, amirite?"
But that's ... complicated. I don't think anyone can, or should, say that Hamas's terrorist attack on Israel is anything less than evil. But terrorism- asymmetric warfare- is how the the occupied fight the occupier (if you question that, ask the French about Algeria). And what the world has been seeing is two years of ... well, let's say ... difficult scenes of mass suffering and death. Palestinian people slaughtered while waiting for food (or dying for the lack of it). At least 55,000 killed. And so on. Not ... great.
I despise Hamas. I truly hope that they are wiped out. But it takes a certain willful blindness to not realize that most countries do not look favorably on apartheid policies, the mass killing of civilians, and the systemic starvation of people- not to mention the forced relocation of people based on ethnicity and religion to be replaced by others.
When it comes to the Middle East? Forget it Jack, it's Chinatown. But I will repeat this- if you truly don't understand that a person can both be against Hamas, but also, you know, not be super happy with Israel's policies for the past decade, I'm not sure discussion on the matter will help (because it's always yada yada yada Balfour declaration). In the end, the grievances are never ending, aren't they?
I don't know how you wipe out (not weaken it short term, wipe it out) Hamas, but the tactics used in the last year plus does not seem to me likely to do it. If anything, it will aid and abet Hamas or Hamas-like groups [the ultimate concern, I would hope] in various ways.
It's completely ridiculous to say that Netanyahu wanted Hamas to "stay active." His only options were invasion, which had no domestic political or international support, starvation through a true blockade until Hamas surrendered, which had even less support especially internationally, or trying to reach some sort of modus vivendi with Hamas. Given the absence of any real domestic opposition in Gaza to Hamas there was no other alternative. He still should've invaded, but I guarantee that you would have condemned him for doing so. In any event Netanyahu was acting under a separate delusion, which gripped the entire Israeli, American, and NATO military and diplomatic establishments with very minor exceptions, which is that given that Hamas's ideology of conquest, murder, expulsion, and so forth was irrational and unreasonable, they didn't really mean it. or at least stated meaning so much that they could be bought off in Gaza with the prospect of both power in Gaza and living a life of luxury in their villas on the coast. Hamas intentionally fed into this delusion, Sending out signals through Qatar and through its actions (not Joining the Israel-Islamic Jihad skirmish in 2021) that it was interested in such a motive vivendi. meanwhile, rather than supporting Hamas in the West Bank, Bibi was constantly sitting in the IDF to arrest or kill Hamas terrorists, partly to protect Israelis, but also to prevent Hamas from taking over the West Bank, with the notion that the PA though terrible was a lesser evil. If you look at the vast majority Bibi's fiercest critics in Israel re allowing Qatar to give money to Hamas, such as former PM Bennett, the *only* critique they have is the money. Bennett also tried to reach a modus vivendi with Hamas, as would have any conceivable prime minister save for Liberman, who correctly believe that Hamas need to be taken seriously and deposed well before 2023.
I'm not on top of the nuances of the conflict, the personal reasons each takes to do what they do, but this conflict has spanned more than 68 years of my life, and to what end ?
There can be no end until one side is eliminated which is impossible. History shows nothing otherwise. So, let them keep killing each other and go on with our lives, because nothing we do or think will end their eternal hatreds and warfare. There's this basic human nature element for which no one over there can get past. Locked in conflict with no way past their own immaturity, they are. Putrid living conditions, eternal hate, lasting warfare, they desire and receive.
Maybe an outside force can encourage them to consider alternatives, but time on one side and numbers on the other side point to perpetual conflict, and quibbling over details is beyond the time of the universe or their desires for peaceful coexistence.
The best solution may be an outside force to show them they must work together and intertwine to reach the next step in their evolution, which has been arrested even if they are in part of the cradle of civilization. All sides in that conflict hold untenable positions ; their scriptures are wrong.
Couldn't the same argument have been made about the Troubles in Northern Ireland? Or the Basque Conflict?
As for your other point, yes, a lot of Palestinians have died. Probably well over 20K of them were Hamas combatants. No tears shed here, and I don't see any good reason other than hostility to Israel to conflate them with civilians. I doubt the 55K, figure is accurate overall, because Hamas seems to account any death during the conflict as being due to the conflict or at least we don't have any accounting that suggests otherwise. But even if its 15,000 instead of 30,000 it's a lot civilians. Hamas of courts can be avoided almost all of these civilian casualties by surrendering and releasing the hostages many months ago, but has chosen war at the expense of its population instead. I haven't seen anyone explain how Israel could have fought this war while substantially reducing the level of civilian casualties, so the argument is simply that Israel should not go to war with Hamas because civilians will suffer. Sorry, that's Hamas's problem. the start of the war and they are responsible for the welfare of their civilians Israel is primarily responsible for the welfare of its own civilians so long obeys the laws of war. The Allies killed millions of civilians, literally millions. some of those war crimes in retrospect but mostly they were inevitable consequence of the war the nuts he started. the Allies for example killed about 30,000 civilians during the invasion of Normandy and the subsequent battles over several weeks. These were *French* civilians, themselves mostly victims of the Nazis. No one says the Allies should not have invaded Normandie for that reason. I don't see why the same logic doesn't apply here, unless you were starting from incorrect premises regarding who the bad guys are.
Obviously the evilness of Israel didn't come from Hamas. It comes from within.
And no, that's not code for Jews. Israel finds itself in an impossible position, which you just described pretty well. But it's a situation entirely of its own making. That's what makes Israel evil.
So don't pretend the history of Israel starts on Oct 7. Yes, that was tragic and Hamas is evil. Hamas's evil doesn't make Israel evil, but it also doesn't make Israel good.
Let's trace Israel's evil back to 1967. Some might say it goes further but at some point it's irrelevant. For me that's 1967 since that's when the occupation began.
What was Israel thinking it was gonna do with millions of Palestinians? It can't annex them or else Israel would no longer be Jewish. It knew (or should have known!) that it could never allow a Palestinian state because the geography leaves Israel vulnerable. Perpetual occupation is the only option short of ethnic cleansing.
Israel knew it in 1967 and they've known it every day since. That's an obscene level of fecklessness. True evil.
Do something about it already!
Israel's situation is entirely of its own making? You think Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and Islamic genocide were innocent?
I do believe in non-sequiturs! Israel would be in the same situation even if those groups weren't guilty: permanently occupying Palestine.
He thinks the evil of Israel is existing, having trouble picking up on that?
Not true at all. As the occupying power, Israel is responsible for the Palestinians. They aren't doing very well under Israel's control, and that's on Israel. This is what people mean when they say Israel is effectively an apartheid state. It's hard to say what the practical difference is between a permanent occupation and official apartheid.
That's what makes Israel evil. I'd like for Israel to keep existing once it figures out a way to end the occupation.
First, let's clarify: Which territory do you think Israel is occupying? What are its borders?
If you're asking whether I'm including Areas A and B I am, because it's laughable to suggest that 227 little bits of land surrounded by Israelis are somehow autonomous. Anyway, the IDF still controls Areas A and B. Like most occupations, there's some putative self-governance but it's not anything like sovereign. Israel is the sovereign over the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip. (And more and more of the Golan Heights apparently!)
That's a little vague. You're "including" Areas A and B, but just to be clear, are you excluding the 1949 Armistice lines?
Yes, I'm excluding 1949. I'm talking about present-day control, not all the various conflicting claims.
I thought that it was pretty obvious that Randal was referring to the West Bank and Gaza, which have been the primary focus of the whole situation since before I was born. Simply put, the territories that Israel is occupying are those territories outside of its sovereign borders that it has under its control. That does include the Golan Heights, but that dispute is between Israel and Syria, not the Palestinians.
Randal was clear and correct, in my view. If Israel controls territory outside of even its claimed national borders, let alone internationally recognized borders, and it gained control through military force, then those territories are occupied.
International law covers how the population in occupied territories is supposed to be treated during occupation, but that has been insufficient in this case. That is because the status of Gaza and the West Bank was not resolved when the war that brought them under Israel control was over. The international law of occupation assumed that occupation would be a temporary status that would be resolved when the conflict was over.
You do realize nobody gives a fuck what you think?
I was making sure whether or not
Randal
was of that opinion.Randal
was clear and correct, in my view.Randal
You have an extremely distorted understanding of the history of Israel.Who enforces "International Law"?? the "International Police"?? Sorry "
Randal
l"Apparently they do!
Edit: I hadn't refreshed the page and didn't see the replies.
I correctly guessed that Brett was going to start quibbling about what it means to militarily "occupy" territory that isn't within that country's sovereign borders.
Bah, past the edit window. I was wrong.
The "from the river to the sea" people tend to view the entirety of Israel as "occupied", in the same way the "Turtle Island" lunatics they're allied with consider the US to be occupied territory. I was making sure whether or not Randal was of that opinion.
I think it's fair to consider much of Gaza to be occupied territory.
No. The West Bank is occupied territory by any reasonable definition of the term. Even in "Palestinian enclaves" (Areas A and B), the PA doesn't have sovereignty. Not to mention that the completely non-contiguous nature of those enclaves makes full PA control impossible. Likely by design.
Randal
You have an extremely distorted understanding of the history of Israel.
Start with the history of israel circa 1,000 bc, then the take over of the region by arabs circa 700-800 ad, then the zionist movement starting in the mid to late 1800's, , then the migration of jordanians into the region as economy blossomed as a result of the development of the region from the jewish settlements in the late 1800's. then the 1948 war. Then add the expulsion of jews from the Iran, Iraq, egypt, libya, and other arab countries after the 1948 war.
You instead to chose a start date of 1967 after the second arab israeli war.
You are doing a great job cherry picking facts.
I don't think things that happened before anyone was born are all that relevant to the question of who's currently behaving in evil ways, which is what David's post is all about.
The corollary is that if Israel would just rip off the band-aid and finish the ethnic cleansing (their only real option), everyone would forget about it in 20 or 30 years. Imagine if they had done that at the time in 1967, how much better the subsequent 60 years would've been for millions of people!
Its is relevant , that you wish to distort and ignore a more complete understanding of history to advance a false agenda
History is of course relevant to a more complete understanding of history.
Which you obviously don't understand, who do you think we stole Amurica from? and we sure as fuck aren't giving it back
If convention requires a land acknowledgement at least it can be this honest.
Oh, you know, rah rah to conquest and colonialism. But we gave the Indians citizenship. They're not all being permanently held captive by the Army.
Israel, at best, had no fucking clue what it was doing in its early days. But you can't blame ignorance and naivety for 60 years of occupation. The occupation of Palestine is old enough to move in to a retirement community, I think it can be tried as an adult.
...the zionist movement starting in the mid to late 1800's, , then the migration of jordanians into the region as economy blossomed as a result of the development of the region from the jewish settlements in the late 1800's. then the 1948 war. Then add the expulsion of jews from the Iran, Iraq, egypt, libya, and other arab countries after the 1948 war.
There wasn't an organized Zionist movement prior to the late 1800s, when it came together formally in the First Zionist Congress in 1897. Jewish immigration to Palestine was vastly higher than that of Muslims from surrounding regions after that.
And the population of that area was majority Christian at the time when Muslims gained control c. 700. It hadn't been majority Jewish since the 4th century. And Jews were no more than a few percent of the population when the Ottomans started keeping records in the mid-1800s.
The history is that modern Israel's connection to ancient Israel is purely a matter of their religious beliefs. I can't even think of any analogy that would fit of some ethnic or religious group wanting to reclaim their ancestral lands after being displaced from that land that that they ruled more than 1500 years ago, but then they still exist as an ethnic or religious group elsewhere now. I also can't imagine that being accepted by people that live on those lands now and had for several generations or more. I also can't imagine thinking that this group would have any kind of right to do that.
The history of modern Israel that is relevant to the present started ~1900, when some European Jews thought it would be better for their people to migrate from one place where they weren't entirely welcome to another place where they wouldn't be entirely welcome. But then to do so over the course of decades until they had sufficient numbers in this other place to have substantial political influence in that place, if not outright control.
Once Israel became a sovereign nation recognized internationally, there was obviously no going back, and it has as much right to its sovereignty as security any other nation. But don't play games with the history to paint over how the most recent displacement of an ethnic group from their lands in that region occurred between 1947 and 1949. And don't pretend that there aren't quite a few Israelis now that would like to finish the job.
You don't seem to know much about the history of the region. Israel wasn't thinking it was going to do anything with the Palestinians. The notion of a "Palestinian state" didn't even exist then. Israel took the disputed territories from Egypt and Jordan. Israel intended to negotiate with Egypt and Jordan.
Israel intended to negotiate with Egypt and Jordan.
That's your answer? That's even weaker than I thought you'd be able to muster!
Israel wasn't thinking it was going to do anything with the Palestinians.
Exactly! Israel conquered a bunch of land with a bunch of people living there that it had no intention of making citizens, and then failed to do anything else with them for 60 years. That's pretty fucking evil.
It's not "weak," it's what the historical record actually shows. Israel actually thought at the end of the 1967 war that, having won the war and taken a lot of territory, its Arab neighbors would negotiate a peace with them to get it back. It made no secret of its intentions. That's why the Arabs meeting in Khartoum that September issued the famous "three nos" - no peace, no negotiations, no recognition.
Go look up Khartoum September 1967 3 nos.
It would be nice if you actually knew something before you made your ill-informed pronouncements.
I'm not saying it's false, I'm saying it's a weak excuse for 60 years of occupation. You have to be pretty stupid to base your entire war plan on a particular postwar negotiation outcome, especially if it's not an outcome you're willing to back up militarily. What even is that?
When it comes to war, stupid is evil.
The "excuse" for the occupation is that when you decisively win a war, you occupy the other country's territory. The U.S. occupied Japan and part of Germany after WWII. The U.S. occupied Afghanistan and Iraq.
And, of course, you're lying about "60 years of occupation;" the occupation of Gaza ended two decades ago.
Oh Mr. Nieporent, you're normally relatively smart about things, so I hate to rape your brain, but rape it I must.
when you decisively win a war, you occupy the other country's territory.
Not forever! You either leave after reconstruction, or you keep it as conquered territory. But if you keep it, you have to decide what to do with the people. Countries that conquer lands and then permanently oppress the inhabitants are considered evil, and Israel is the worst among them.
the occupation of Gaza ended two decades ago.
Even if that were true, it's no longer relevant, since a) the West Bank and b) Israel has promised to occupy Gaza indefinitely going forward.
No, not exactly. You still don't understand the facts at all. Israel didn't "conquer land." There was a war; the Egyptian and Jordanian militaries collapsed. Very quickly. There's a clue somewhere in the name of the war about that. Israel ended up in physical control of those territories as a result. But that control was not the objective of the war, and Israel had no intention of keeping it, so making people citizens — which would not even have been legal, nor did the people there want that — was not on the table.
Israel did not "fail to do anything" with them. It tried repeatedly to negotiate.
Israel ended up in physical control of those territories as a result.
Do you know how silly you sound? Whoops, we went to war and accidentally conquered Palestine!
You're making Israel sound more and more inept. So I'll just repeat: when it comes to war, stupid is evil.
1) It did not "conquer" anything. Again, it ended up in possession of its enemies' territory because their militaries quickly collapsed. (You
may not beare almost certainly utterly unaware of this, but Israel actually went to war against Syria and Egypt. It told Jordan that if Jordan did not initiate any attacks, Israel would leave it alone. But Jordan (and Syria too, for that matter) believed Egyptian propaganda that it was on the verge of defeating Israel, and so went on the offensive. Briefly.)2) It certainly did not conquer "Palestine," a non-existent entity.
1) You're playing word games. What counts as "conquering" territory in your mind? "[Ending] up in possession of its enemies' territory because their militaries quickly collapsed," sounds like conquering that territory to me.
2) Israel was a non-existent entity prior to its declaration of independence in 1948. The United States was a non-existent entity prior to our Declaration of Independence in 1776. Both took wars to turn their declared existence into sovereignty.
Oh, and what was the territory called that included the land that became the State of Israel before it came into existence in 1948? And what other lands were part of that territory?
I feel like when you go to war with some countries and end up in control of their land, that's called conquering said territory. And I, like everyone else, am using "Palestine" to refer to those territories. You're resorting to some pretty sad wordplay here.
Are you trying to suggest that the six-day war was some sort of Arab trick to unload the Palestinians onto Israel? If so, just say that, but also: laughable. That would mean Israel lost the war. But anyway, we know that's not what happened.
"it's a situation entirely of its own making."
Yes, Jews wanted a Jewish state in the former British Mandate. Israel has accept land for peace many times. The Arabs have always walked away from any agreement in which the Jewish state survives. That is why they are the evil in region.
It sure is handy to use WWII references, but the major international humanitarian/conduct of warfare conventions were entered into after WWII for a reason...
Given what I have seen, it is likely Israel has violated international humanitarian law in both its conduct of the war and limiting supplies to civilians.
But, let's say I am wrong about that. Instead, Israel has been fully compliant with international law while playing whack-a-mole for 2 years that has shown no signs of removing Hamas. All the while, civilians have suffered greatly while hostages were held for far too long. At some point, Israel should have rethought its strategy.
But, let's say I am wrong about that as well and we shall see Hamas destroyed. What's the plan for the post war? Without such a plan, you shouldn't be at war.
I give Netanyahu credit for how he handled Hezbollah and (so far) Iran. But, he is a hostage to Ben-Gvir and Smotrich when it comes Gaza and the West Bank. Their policies of ethnic cleansing are not pro-Zionist.
Yeah, not going to respond to ... that stuff ... above. One thing I have learned is that it's no use trying to talk to someone that doesn't want to hear anything other than what they already know to be true.
But I did want to reply to what you just wrote, Josh R. because you wrote something I agreed with. Look, I can recite the sins of Netanyahu as much as, if not more than, the next guy, but credit where it's due- he did (and is doing) a great job with Hezbollah in Lebanon. And he also executed a brilliant plan against Iran.
Who knows how it will end up in the long-term, but those were two successes. And I have no problem admitting that he (as the leader and person who authorized the actions) wildly overperformed.
On the other hand, it might be the case Netanyahu's actions in Iran violated international law. The attacks were an act of war and I'm not sure if such a war comports with international law. Perhaps it does if Iran was imminently about to join the nuclear club, but even if so, I don't trust Netanyahu to be honest about that.
The cynic in me says Trump was about to make a deal with Iran and Netanyahu's attacks torpedoed it. And, the military success was so stunning, Trump joined in. All that being said, both Netanyahu and Trump (ignore the obliterated claims) deserve great credit for pulling it off and quickly ending the war. How it ends up in the long term remains to be seen.
"ignore the obliterated claims"
The breadth of the destruction would factor into my judgment on how "great credit" it deserved, especially if international law was violated & we don't even know how much long-term value it will have.
“yes, a lot of Palestinians have died […] even if it’s 15000 instead of 30000, it’s a lot of civilians.”
“No tears shed here.”
In a post decrying depravity!
That ellipsis is doing some heavy lifting.
> Probably well over 20K of them were Hamas combatants. No tears shed here, and I don't see any good reason other than hostility to Israel to conflate them with civilians.
Seems pretty clear that David was talking about Hamas combatants with the "no tears shed here" remark.
This goes beyond abuse of ellipses to intentional fabrication. What I wrote is: “Probably well over 20K of them were Hamas combatants. No tears shed here, and I don't see any good reason other than hostility to Israel to conflate them with civilians.” Yes, still not shedding any tears over Hamas terrorists killed in a war started by Hamas.
You just hand waved away 15k civilian casualties (going by your own made-up numbers).
15k? 30k? Who’s counting? Doesn’t matter, it’s a big number. Sure, the IDF dropped the bombs that killed those people but it’s actually someone else’s fault!
We have different definitions of depravity.
I am glad you are committing these thoughts to writing for posterity, however.
However many it is, it's obviously not enough
Clearly— the depravity of “leftist antizionists” knows no bounds.
To be fair— this is a KIND of “moral clarity”!
I didn’t wave them away and certainly not in the way you fabricated what I wrote. I said it’s a lot of civilians regardless, and their deaths are Hamas’s fault not Israel’s. And I’ve been calling on influential people to call Hamas to surrender since October 8, to spare their civilian population these casualties. I’ve also been calling on people to call on Egypt to let in refugees to spare civilians from Hamas’s folly.
"I said it’s a lot of civilians regardless, and their deaths are Hamas’s fault not Israel’s."
This is more of the logic you would expect to hear on the jungle gym, not in the commentary of a legal blog. No wonder this will never be resolved.
“fabricated what I wrote”
I quoted you twice. That is not fabrication in any recognizable sense of the word.
It’s your choice to link the two statements. Independently, Both quotes exhibit a depraved indifference to human lives— however much you want to whine about ellipses.
We are talking about the kettling, starvation and immiseration of 2M human beings, including a significant number of children. It must be a comforting psychological space to inhabit to glibly defend that while blaming others for the bombs, the starvation, the coming forced relocation. No— you want to talk about ellipses! I’m not certain depravity covers it here.
Estragón says:
“I …‘fabricated what [you] wrote’ … That is … fabrication in any recognizable sense of the word. “
At least he admits it.
You just said
“I […] e […] at […] a[…] s […] s”
Wow, SO CLEVER.
David doesn’t care if the real number of civ casualties is 55, 30 or 15k. The quotes are an accurate reflection of his indifference to accuracy here.
*15k here or there— it doesn’t matter to my larger rhetorical point.*
THAT is depravity. Congrats, now you’ve also committed to writing your feelings here. I am glad. Doubly so for David.
Whose fault was the deaths of German civilians in WW2? Hitler's or FDR's?
Very self-evidently, both.
Same with the French civilians killed by allied bombs, which was David’s example. I wonder how a French person living at the time would react to being told “But even if its 15,000 instead of 30,000 it's a lot civilians. But it’s really the Germans’ fault!”
I suspect that vast majority of them would have agreed. It's not like they rioted against the Allied forces when they took over; quite the opposite.
Wow, great! So now we get to play the reactionaries’ favorite game— alt history!
The willingness to debate alt WWII history rather than confront my very true statement is extremely telling. To be helpful I will repeat it:
We are talking about the kettling, starvation and immiseration of 2M human beings, including a significant number of chldren.
I understand why you’d rather spin hypos about people from 80 years ago.
Whose fault was the deaths of German civilians in WW2? Hitler's or FDR's?
What do you mean by "fault"? Who made the most direct and proximate choice that killed those people? Then that would actually be the US Army Air Corp officers that chose the targets and ordered the missions. (Giving the pilots and crews the benefit of the doubt that they followed the mission plans and didn't deliberately drop bombs on anything other than their assigned targets.) Further up the chain of command, stopping with FDR, would be the ultimate causal responsibility. Not bombing German cities in order to destroy or at least weaken their ability to produce weapons and ammunition and other military supplies would not have been a wise choice, but it was still the choice of the Allies to drop those bombs.
Do you mean moral responsibility? Then you present a false dilemma. The protection of civilians in war is the responsibility of all sides and all combatants, to the extent that it is possible to limit harm to them. That is the whole premise for how the international laws of war are written in regards to civilian populations, isn't it?
Just like it isn't a choice between Hitler and FDR as to who had the responsibility to protect German civilians during the war, it isn't a choice between Israel and Hamas as to who should be working to minimize the suffering of civilians in Gaza. The failure of Hamas to even attempt to limit the harm to the people they are supposedly fighting for can affect how successful Israel can be in limiting the harm they cause. But it does not absolve them of any of their responsibility to do what they can.
Sorry, that's Hamas's problem... they are responsible for the welfare of their civilians Israel is primarily responsible for the welfare of its own civilians so long obeys the laws of war.
I think this captures your fundamental moral misunderstanding. Israel is responsible for the welfare of the Palestinians under international law and has been since 1967. The horrific job Israel's done over the last 60 years -- including but not limited to the past 18 months -- is what people are upset about.
Hope this helps, David!
Who enforces "International Law"?? the "International Police"?? Sorry "Randall" (you can use your Moose-lum Name, you're not fooling anyone) You can take your International Law and stick it up your Asshole
Hope that Helps! Mahmood, or Jug-Lish, Abdul, Omar, Ahab, .....
Look who's coming to your defense, David! Congratulations, you're keeping great company.
Sounds about right. They'll also pretend that aid organizations full of Hamas members are objective sources of information.
Humanitarian Aid in Gaza: What’s Really Happening
It's a sad reality that the UN and its aid organizations are largely controlled by antisemites.
From your source:
“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Israel Katz condemned the article as “contemptible blood libels” and “malicious falsehoods designed to defame the IDF, the most moral military in the world.” The IDF denied the allegations and reaffirmed its commitment to protecting civilians, while launching an internal investigation.”
This is a false libel, we will now investigate!
It’s amazing how many right wing people can be so skeptical of nearly everything our government does while also credulous of everything the Israeli government does and says.
Hamas is evil and should be eradicated just like Al Qaeda was evil and should be eradicated, but just like the latter’s evil didn’t justify us doing many things to eradicate them the former’s doesn’t give the IDF carte blanche, and thinking that people holding such a position must “inevitably leads them to support genocidal policies toward Israeli Jews” is paranoid and irresponsible at best.
"Hamas is evil and should be eradicated just like Al Qaeda was evil and should be eradicated, but"
Its always a "but" that negates the first phrase/sentence. Loki's rant up thread is full of them too.
Yes, when you don’t have a black and white worldview there’s always going to be “buts.” I get that’s foreign to you.
The problem with what you are saying is that you are ignoring reality. You assert that "Hamas is evil and should be eradicated just like Al Qaeda was evil and should be eradicated." Yet you don't tell us what you would do different from Israel to achieve this eradication. Just an abstract "the IDF [does not have] carte blanche."
War is horrific. It is made more horrific when your enemy hides behind civilians, and places its military among civilian buildings, including hospitals and places of worship. Until you tell us what specifically the IDF should do differently but still achieve your conceded goal of eradicating Hamas, then your posts are just so much bloviating.
It really isn't on anyone but Israel to figure out a way to comply with the international conventions it and most of the rest of the world has signed up to.
Throwing up its hands and saying "war is hard" doesn't give Israel a legal (or moral) free pass.
But it gives Hamas a free pass because they didn't sign nuttin'.
Hamas and Israel could both be evil.
I know, I just blew up your mind.
Why would you say that? Stupidity?
The IDF has a whole department devoted to complying with both international law and its own higher standards. And has performed brilliantly, if not perfectly. The onus is now on its critics to identify where they have failed, and what they can do differently while still achieving the goal of eradicating Hamas.
Your position is a cop-out, and basically says, "Hey Kike. Sit there and be massacred." Sorry, not nation on earth would tolerate that.
If a Mexican gang had invaded Texas and committed the kind of atrocities Hamas did on October 7, you can bet the response would have been far harsher.
Your position is also a cop-out, as I have already explained.
And plastering their uniforms with "most moral army in the world" patches means fuck-all.
Israel should do what it has promised, or resile from the conventions. The world allowing Israel to backslide whenever they please undermines the entire humanitarian legal structure.
"entire humanitarian legal structure"
A "legal structure" that 100% binds one party but is 100% ignored by the other. Useless and counterproductive.
And, setting aside the false equivalence for the moment, your "solution" is to allow both sides to ignore it. Brilliant.
Criminals in America don’t follow laws. Doesn’t mean the government doesn’t have to when prosecuting them!
ObviouslyNotSpam 33 minutes ago
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It really isn't on anyone but Israel to figure out a way to comply with the international conventions it and most of the rest of the world has signed up to.
Israel is complying with international conventions.
Typical lie from apologists
Just to get you up to speed, Joe, this is what I was responding to:
"Yet you don't tell us what you would do different from Israel to achieve this eradication. Just an abstract "the IDF [does not have] carte blanche.""
It was Bored Lawyer's pathetic attempt to shift the responsibility for compliance with international humanitarian law from Israel to anyone criticizing Israel, which I had objected to.
If, as you say, Israel is fully compliant with all its obligations, then there's nothing at all to worry about, and you can go back to sleep.
perhaps you should be up to speed on your own argument.
Israel is complying with international warfare conventions. you chose to deny it and distort the facts.
I don't think sleep can help you, Joe.
Forced migrations, bombing completely civilian infrastructure, sniping unarmed adults and children as they walk down the street (I've seen the videos posted happily by IDF personnel who did the sniping). None of this is compliant with conventions
oh yes, there will always be "Butts" with you, "But" it's foreign to most straight guys
Having Kurt Waldheim as UN Secretary General was a clue (Feldwebel Waldheim was SG during the Munich Massacre in Sept 1972, of course what did the UN do? pass a resolution condemning Israel (Resolution 2949 if you want to "Fact Check")
45/47(48?) needs to turn off the Water/Power/Cable to 405 E 42d Street, kick everyone out, and refurbish it as housing for Homeless Vets. The UN can reconvene somewhere more appropriate for their membership, I hear Terror-Anne has open lots.
Frank
A really good rule of thumb is to be highly highly skeptical of any denial of deliberately depraved atrocities in a war zone. It takes a lot of professionalism and political will to 1) minimize their occurrence 2) make perpetrators accountable for them. Obviously Hamas has neither of that seeing as they are a terrorist organization turned de facto government with an antisemitic and genocidal ideology.
Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are dictatorship kleptocracy fighters, like so much of the surface of the Earth, and all history.
Much like the leadership of the rest of the middle east, who traditionally treat Palestinians as gypsy dogs, but now find it convenient to praise them and stir them up against another traditional foe, Jews and Israel.
It encompasses the rule literally taught in psych 101, stir up hatred against a smaller internal group, or a larger external one, to distract from the misery you yourself cause domestically.
Of course, knowing that rule is known by all, making false claims of depraved atrocities in a war zone becomes a tactic. When no videos of Israelis emerge sniping civilians, it must be because Israelis control access and provide only the evidence that exonerates them of doing wrong. That there are no videos of Hamas baiting Israeli responses is, however, proof of Israeli culpability. What you see proves nothing, it's what you don't see that proves what's really happening. How did we come to this? Well, it's not a new tactic. There's just new people willing to accept it, in addition to the old people happy to see the tactic employed. They ask, if there really were one or two Hamas members mixed in among crowds of 10s of thousands, don't you think there'd be *some* video of them fomenting a shooting incident in the dim early morning hours? Of course!
You mean like making false claims about beheaded babies?
Did Hamas kill babies deliberately on October 7 or not? Oh, they did, and that is the atrocity, not how they killed them.
what was false about it? that they left out how they were disemboweled also?
"As a rule, even the Nazis didn't proudly film themselves committing atrocities against children, but instead generally tried to cover it up."
So you're trying to imply that Hamas is even more depraved than the Nazis because they filmed it while the Nazis covered it up. Perhaps implying a sense of shame. But I don't think that's really a comparison you can make because 1) filming was more of an elaborate production back then, you couldn't just use your phone and post something to online in real time 2) the Nazis wanted a different type of propaganda for domestic and international consumption. If showing mass violence against children was effective propaganda at that time, they would have done it. It wasn't some moral calculus.
I reminded of Ordinary Men, where Browning describes an officer in Police Battalion 101 who brought his wife on a honeymoon to Poland where they were doing the mass-killings. These people weren't ashamed at all. If they could have filmed their atrocities easily, they would have.
I'll also just note that modern day mass-shooters with similar beliefs to the Nazis have live streamed it: see Christchurch, El Paso, etc.
"If showing mass violence against children was effective propaganda at that time, they would have done it. It wasn't some moral calculus."
Correct, the difference is that the Nazis perceived that their audience, even many of the antisemites among them, would have been repulsed by films of them murdering children and so forth. Hamas perceived that its audience would be enthralled by it, or, as discussed above, blame the victims for it. Hamas is no less depraved than the Nazis, and would be happy to do to the Jews what the Nazis did if they had the means. It's true the Palestinians have real grievances that the Nazis did not, but it's also true that Hamas is not motivated by those grievances, but by its underlying Islamist ideology, and those grievances are at best just trotted out for Western consumption. (Al Qaeda and Islamic State with similar ideologies, didn't need any grievances to massacre Yazidis, Druze, etc.)
All that said, from what I can gather, most Nazi murderers still thought of murdering Jews (and others) as a grim necessity, not something they'd proudly show their mom.
I do think you are giving too much credit to the Nazis. After a certain point, it was clear that the Nazis were going to lose, and the Allies would call them to account for their atrocities. They still kept at the Holocaust, but they knew the had to hide the evidence for what was coming.
Information about Auschwitz, for example, had to be smuggled out by escapees and Western operatives. The Nazis certainly didn't broadcast it on the radio, as they could have. As noted, this is probably less an indication of their lack of depravity and more an indication that they, unless Hamas, didn't think their intended audience would be receptive to atrocities against civilians.
The death camps (Vernichtungslagern -- Chełmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz) were all located outside Germany proper. They were all purposely located in the Polish countryside, far from German civilian eyes, and they were (mostly) built before the tide of the war turned against Germany.
Also, AIUI, they had special leave and treatment programs for the guards. Even for the type of psychopathic creep that volunteered to work there, the sheer inhumanity could be too much.
Hamas perceived that its audience would be enthralled by it, or, as discussed above, blame the victims for it.
Are you really this mentally thin? Have you never wondered why terrorist groups race to take public credit for various horrific atrocities worldwide, the more horrific the better, even ones they didn't commit?
I think the biggest difference between now and then is the way petrodollars led to Islam, and a particularly virulent strain of it, having much greater world influence today than back then. The Muslim populations of most Western countries back around WWII were negligible. Not so much today.
While anti-semitism is hardly limited to Muslims, Islam has a special sort of hostility towards Judaism. So, while the Nazis weren't alone in being hostile to Jews, even regular anti-semites would have thought the Holocaust was too much, and they had to be somewhat quiet about it.
But Hamas faces a very different world, where a much more virulent anti-semitism has become common.
The rhetorical brilliance of the Abraham accords is that it relies on a different and much more tolerant strain in Islam, they choose are the children of Abraham just like Arabs, and believe and the same God's Muslims due and thus can be treated if not like equals at least respectfully. This was a reasonably prominent strain of Islam until modern Nazi-inspired Muslim Brotherhood ideology took over.
"Zionism" is pernicious term because it conveniently fails to differentiate between political Zionism (Israel's "right to exist") and religious Zionism (the belief that the State of Israel is one step in the fulfillment of a religious prophecy--and authorizes taking the associated further steps). I heartily support the former and completely reject the latter.
Put that way, however, you can see why proponents of the latter happily pretend the former doesn't exist, and insist that anyone who questions or rejects the latter is an "Anti-Zionist" or at least some kind of antisemite.
What always shocks me is that the people making arguments like this -- the ADL for instance -- seem blind to the real damage it's doing to Judaism, both internally and externally.
By internally what I mean is that it puts Jews to the decision of supporting Israel's atrocities or abandoning a core element of their faith.
Why not instead create a permission structure for people to be pro-Israel's-existence but anti-atrocity?
Why not go fuck yourself?
People who call themselves "antizionists" like the editors of Mondoweiss, or Peter Beinart, or the leaders of Students for Justice in Palestine, American Muslims for Palestine, and so forth, are quite explicit that they don't want Israel to exist. This isn't some secret. While some people may cling to some other idiosyncratic definition of antizionism, the "oragnized" antizionist movement doesn't care about which particular flavor of Zionism you support, it's against it. Just for example, Dean Erwin Chemerinsky of Berkeley is a harsh critic of Israel from the left. But when he quizzed the students at Berkeley who banned "Zionist" speakers if that included him and people like him, they said of course, because you think Israel should exist. People who claim that this isn't what the debate over "Zionism" is about either aren't paying attention, or are lying.
"Hamas is, like the Nazis, an evil that must simply be eradicated."
&
"It *has* to be Israel--the putative "white" "colonizer" that's at fault"
Both these things can be true simultaneously, David.
What you, and most of the hicks here in this commentary suffer from is the conflation of an antizionist (such as myself) being a person that also wishes harm on Jews and that supports Hamas. This childish strawman may work in MAGA echo chambers like here, but people who know their own hearts and convictions see it for the bullshit it is. See if you can more honestly make your points without insulting readers in this way
It's just classic Bernstein: he basically assumes bad faith from the people that disagree with him. Through his lens, Ehud Olmert must be a raging anti-semite.
I actually think "I agree with Ehud Olmert" is the easiest way to summarize my own reaction to the situation. There are likely some points he gets wrong, but he's both more knowledgeable and articulate about the situation than I'm ever likely to be.
That's incorrect. My view is that as a rule, Western antizionists are simply indifferent to the fate of the Jews of Israel, not that they wish them harm. As a rule, they would prefer that Israel cease to exist in a peaceful manner that doesn't result in grievous harm to Jews. But if that can't be, as a rule they would prefer Israel not exist, even if it does result in grievous harm to Jews, because Israel's non-existence is a moral imperative that supercedes, e.g., mere genocide.
Killing children caused major psych problems for the SS guys doing it.
Right, like Charlie "Don't Surf" Manson ordered murders because of a Beatles Album and Ted Bundy murdered because he watched too much Porn. I'd enjoy if the Terrorists felt bad for murdering people, but I wouldn't count on it.
For once Ed is correct. The SS daily shootings were affecting the killers, poor dears.
So they went to carbon monoxide but that leaves an ugly mess in the vans [and uses precious gasoline] so they eventually adopted gas in camps because that was easier on the killers, they didn't have to witness the killings and prisoners cleaned it up.
What people don't understand is that only Israel tells us the truth and every other observer of Gaza is lying. That's why Agence France Presse is clearly lying when it says its freelancers are starving to death.
"Depuis que l'AFP a été fondée en août 1944, nous avons perdu des journalistes dans des conflits, nous avons eu des blessés et des prisonniers dans nos rangs, mais aucun de nous n'a le souvenir d'avoir vu un collaborateur mourir de faim", a alerté, lundi 21 juillet, la Société des journalistes (SDJ) de l’AFP, qui craint pour la vie de ses 10 journalistes toujours à Gaza."
https://www.france24.com/fr/moyen-orient/20250722-%C3%A0-gaza-les-journalistes-de-l-afp-risquent-de-mourir-de-faim
Sure, it's in French. Let me translate for you:
"Since AFP was founded in August 1944, we have lost journalists in conflicts, we have had wounded and prisoners in our ranks, but none of us remembers seeing a collaborator die of hunger."
Let me translate it further: "We employ Hamas members as freelancers in Gaza, because Hamas would kill anybody else. We don't like that Israel isn't feeding the opposing army."
Don't make things up.
He's not, you are
AFP uses Hamas figures and reports them as objective information, you think they'd mind it if their freelancers were Hamas?
Look at what you just did.
You went from writing a whole-ass story to a dodgy factual assertion in support of 'it could be true!'
You should care more about whether something IS true even if it FEELS true.
Every "journalist" in Gaza is either a terror org member or a collaborator. No exceptions.
Yeah you think a lot of Jews are Hamas quislings and collaborators; you're kind of a psycho.
I don't know how many of the people in the twice misnamed Jewish voice for Peace are actually Jews, but that descirbes many of them quite well.
Weirdly, you didn't translate the rest of that paragraph, where it said that hasn't happened.
Weirdly, you didn't translate it completely either, where it says that they fear that it will happen: (via Google Translate)
"Since AFP was founded in August 1944, we have lost journalists in conflicts, we have had wounded and prisoners in our ranks, but none of us has the memory of having seen a collaborator die of starvation," warned AFP's Society of Journalists (LDS) on Monday (July 21st), which fears for the lives of its 10 journalists still in Gaza.
Right. "Fear it will happen" means "hasn't happened."
How much more effort would it have taken to copy/paste the whole translation that you had obviously already run?
You could have included the whole thing, which makes what seems to be your main point that the OP was being selective, and then left it to everyone else to come to their own conclusions about whether it was reasonable for that group to worry that it will happen. Instead, you said that it "hasn't happened." The implication being that it means that there was no reason to be concerned.
OK, as usual, I'll be the one to say the Baby's ugly. The only good Palestinians are dead Palestinians, which is why no other A-rab Nation will take any significant numbers of them.
Is this depraved enough for you, David?
I guess if an anonymous, consistently intentionally provocative internet comment section contributor says something outrageous, I should reconsider my entire worldview.
I get it. 10/7 was horrific, inexcusable, and required a strong response.
But now we're here. When does the necessary strong response become too strong? Is there any action by the IDF that 10/7 cannot justify? Quixotic goals like "end of Hamas" are unattainable and therefor unhelpful for setting the moral boundaries. But I rarely hear the pro-Israel side calling for proportionality (jus bellum) or moral restraint (human rights analysis).
We'll quit when Ham-Ass quits killing Jews and releases all the Hostages
Like with the Japs not surrendering after Hiroshima, maybe if you want to stop getting attacked, release the hostages of the people attacking you.
Franl
"...stops killing Jews..."
Again, that's an unworkable requirement. That's like "...when settlers stop beating up Palestinians..." or "We'll stop resisting when cops stop shooting civilians in their beds."
As Stalin told Lady Astor, Israel will stop killing Terrorists when it is no longer necessary
Might be a while
Frank
The goal right now is to find the hostages. Hamas won't turn them over, not even all the dead bodies. Hamas could end the occupation right now by simply setting them free.
Israel can be a Jewish state if its residents of all faiths and non-faiths overwhelmingly desire it to be so.
Good luck with that. And read more Camus.
It already is a Jewish State, go to Gaza and tell me what the Insignia on the IDF Jets is, if you even survive that long, you obviously don't know what Ham-Ass does to Turd Burglars
Yesterday, I had a long thread on X explaining why the antizionist ideology of people like Peter Beinart inevitably leads them to support genocidal policies toward Israeli Jews. I noted that Beinart had a brief period of soul-searching immediately after 10/7, and then went back to business as usual.
Where business as usual is his (and those like him) "role as Hamas apologists and Israel-haters."
Having never heard of Peter Beinart, I just had to look up this alleged Israel-hater that supports genocide against Israeli Jews.
So, here's his profile page as a member of the faculty at a journalism school at the City University of New York:
https://www.journalism.cuny.edu/faculty/peter-beinart/
In an article behind a paywall, he wrote an op-ed in 2020 titled "I No Longer Believe in a Jewish State" that seems to call for a single-state solution. "For decades I argued for separation between Israelis and Palestinians. Now, I can imagine a Jewish home in an equal state."
I suppose that is what Prof. Bernstein means when he says that Beinart supports "genocidal policies toward Israeli Jews."
In case it wasn't clear yet, Peter Beinart is an observant Jew. Bernstein all but called him a traitor here.
He also had an interview with Hamid from the Post this past Spring. When he was asked about whether there is too much emnity between Palestinians and Israelis to have a single state, he said, well, there's the South African model, but some Palestinians may now prefer the Algerian model [hint: this is not new, ie expelling or murdering all the Jews in Israel]. He then mumbled something about how we just have to stop digging, then worry about it. In other words, the primary goal is one state. We'll work out later whether it's going to be a multi-ethnic democracy or all the Jews will be murdered or expelled. Yup, ok with genocide. Doesn't *prefer* genocide, but it definitely is not a make or break. The fact that he happens to be an Orthodox Jew is neither here nor there, he is motivated by the same far left worldview as secular far leftists.
And btw, he'd be absolutely crushed that you never heard of him, even though you are an elite consumer of news-related opinion (as evidenced by the fact that read this blog).
JasonT20
Having never heard of Peter Beinart,.. Well, have a look at the NYT's op-ed pages, where he is the de facto resident anti-Zionist Jew. And the author this year of Being Jewish After the Destruction of Gaza: A Reckoning. Now, you might think a book by that title would focus considerable attention on the horrific acts that Hamas perpetrated in southern Israel on 10/7/23, barbarously massacring 1250 and taking 250 hostage then, while also committing rapes and other heinous crimes in the course of that single day. But Beinart devoted exceedingly few words to that particular day of infamy, instead giving over more than 150 pages to calling out the Jews for how they responded in turn to Hamas' attack.
It was as though Robert Jay Lifton looked at the justification for the US' use of the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki without ever mentioning Japan's 12/7/41 sneak attack on Pearl Harbor (Day of Infamy); any of their massive war crimes (e.g., Rape of Nanking; vivisection; comfort women; etc.); or the consideration of how many lives it would have cost if Japan had to be invaded). That would have been roughly as bowlderized an account of the decision to drop the Bomb as Beinart's bowlderized version of this treatment of Gaza war.