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N.Y. Times Magazine Reveals Internal Conflicts On The Left With Skrmetti
The groups presented a unified front, but with a 6-3 loss, recriminations are flying.
As the saying goes, success has many parents, but failure is an orphan. Such is Skrmetti. Barely twenty-four hours after the landmark decision, the New York Times Magazine published a lengthy profile of the case. I would encourage you to read the entire piece. We often think of the political left as some sort of monolithic and coherent institution of group think. But this article reveals many fractures on the left, some of which I suspected, but had no first-hand knowledge.
First, the article speaks to how quickly the national conversation changed around transgender rights. During the lead-up to Windsor and Obergefell, I often remarked how effective the social movement was for gay marriage. The argument was simple: allowing this couple to marry will in no way affect traditional marriage. Even the phrase marriage equality was so easy to grasp! I don't think things were so simple, but the messaging was effective. Moreover, the movement took decades to develop. People had time to accept the argument on their own terms.
However, the argument for transgender rights felt much different. Most Americans had no clue what "cisgender" or "gender affirmative care" meant. Yet, if people refused to uses these neologisms, they were cancelled and deemed bigots. And, unlike with gay marriage, the transgender movement necessarily required others to make changes. People would have to accept transgender athletes in female sports. Women who had privacy concerns about bathrooms would have to just suck it up. And that was before doctors started telling parents they could either have a dead daughter or a live son, coupled with school districts that deceived parents. All of this seemingly happened in a few years. Trump had so much influence in averting this movement.
Second, Bostock was a case about LGB as well as T, but the T only followed from the (wrong) textualist argument that Justice Gorsuch convinced himself of. And the Times articles reveals how the advocates, including Chase Strangio of the ACLU, tried to bamboozle Gorsuch directly:
Indeed, as Strangio recounted in an interview later that year, the lawyers had spent months workshopping just such a path to victory, ultimately landing on a simple argument: All the justices needed to accept was that Stephens would not have been fired for asking to wear women's clothing at work if her sex was female.
"So, fine," Strangio explained. "Say it's assigned sex at birth, say it's whatever you want — but it's because of sex." At oral argument, another A.C.L.U. lawyer reassured Gorsuch, who was considered the key vote, that protecting trans people would not lead to social upheaval — assurances that Strangio privately chafed at but that he recognized as tactically effective. "We wanted them to apply the law," Strangio said. "And we wanted them, particularly Gorsuch, to believe that it wasn't a big deal."
But Strangio--who sees the Supreme Court as "vile"--saw what Justice Gorsuch did not:
Yet in practice, Strangio and other civil rights lawyers believed that Bostock was a very big deal. In their view, they had successfully maneuvered the Supreme Court — a "vile institution," as Strangio put it — into setting a far-reaching judicial precedent. At the time, other pathways to expand rights for L.G.B.T.Q. people were narrowing. Despite progress in left-leaning states, legislation to enshrine housing, workplace and other protections at the federal level had stalled in Congress, in part because L.G.B.T.Q. groups refused to consider carve-outs — demanded by otherwise sympathetic Republicans — to protect religious institutions. Bostock seemed to offer a way to attain those rights without the compromise and horse-trading of legislation.
Yes, Bostock killed the possibility of legislative compromise--yet another reason why this decision is so inconsistent with how Gorsuch usually approaches the judicial process.
Third, transgender activists like Strangio thought momentum was on their side--as the saying goes, they were on the right side of history. Indeed, Merrick Garland had to be pushed to file in support of the Tennessee challenge:
When Tennessee's ban passed in February 2023, lawyers in the department's civil rights division lobbied to move aggressively. The attorney general, Merrick Garland, was at first skeptical. In conversations, Garland and his advisers weighed whether the case was strong enough to merit the time and resources it would consume if the civil rights division were to intervene. Eventually, though, Garland signed off.
I am reasonably confident that Garland was lobbied by Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar, his former clerk, and someone who carried great influence. Prelogar was almost certainly a source for this story.
Fourth, we see there were serious disagreements about strategy. Some other groups wanted to move more incrementally, and seek relief in state court. This strategy has proven successful with abortion post Dobbs. But the bigger problem is that not all progressives saw transgender rights as their fights. I am still flummoxed by the ostracization of the so-called TERFs, who seek to preserve rights for women.
L.G.B.T.Q. groups and the A.C.L.U. might have looked to state courts, seeking incremental wins without the risk of a binding Supreme Court precedent, as the movement had done for years in fighting anti-sodomy laws. They could also have waited for a case on more politically favorable ground, such as restrictions on military service or medical care for trans adults. The A.C.L.U. saw it differently. A few weeks after Sutton's ruling, the organization petitioned the Supreme Court to review Skrmetti.
In recent months, Strangio and other trans activists have pleaded for broader public solidarity with their cause, arguing that the defense of gender-affirming care is closely intertwined with the defense of reproductive freedom and bodily autonomy for women. But when I asked Romero if the A.C.L.U. had consulted with women's rights groups before bringing Skrmetti — with its high-stakes claims about sex-discrimination protections — before the Supreme Court, he seemed impatient. "I don't play 'Mother May I?' with a group of sister organizations," Romero said. "I don't run a peer-review journal. I make the best decisions for this organization on its own."
Fifth, there is a lot of consternation about whether the ACLU should have petitioned for cert after the Sixth Circuit upheld the Tennessee law.
Some civil rights experts I spoke with think it was a mistake to take Skrmetti to the Supreme Court. In their view, it was highly unlikely that the court, now with an even larger conservative majority than when it decided Bostock, was prepared to expand constitutional civil rights protections to a new class of Americans — let alone on the grounds of medical transition for minors. "If you get a bad ruling on this, it could be really problematic," Michael Ulrich, a professor of health law and human rights at Boston University, told me this spring. "If you can't win a challenge to strike down a gender-affirming care ban, it's going to be hard to win other cases around trans rights."
Recently, a decision was made to not appeal the Fifth Circuit's ruling that DACA was unlawful. The ruling was limited to Texas. I think immigrant groups were willing to lose DACA for Texas, to avoid setting a nationwide precedent. But trans laws existed in nearly two dozen states. This issue was not going away. And as history would reveal, the scientific "consensus" was dwindling by the day. The best strategy was to try to move quickly, while Biden was still in office.
Sixth, we also learn that DOJ preferred Skrmetti over the Alabama case, as it had fewer vehicle problems.
The former senior Justice Department official argued that the Alabama case — awaiting further appellate review and mired in arguments about discovery — wasn't "a viable vehicle" for Supreme Court review. And once the A.C.L.U. went ahead in Tennessee, this official told me, the Biden administration had to follow. Steering clear of Skrmetti "would have telegraphed loudly to the court that the department didn't have the courage of its convictions," the official said. Not long after the A.C.L.U. asked the Supreme Court to hear the Tennessee case, the department filed its own petition.
Seventh, as the case was being argued, public perception about the case changed--in particular the WPATH emails revealed an obvious attempt to suppress information. Some unnamed Biden aide throws Admiral Levine under the battleship.
Just as WPATH's internal emails began trickling into public view, the Supreme Court announced that it would hear Skrmetti. Not long after, Levine's requests to WPATH were reported by The Times. White House officials were blindsided, several told me. Though Levine would later tell Biden aides that she had been trying to protect the president, the West Wing saw it differently: Her request could suggest that the administration thought there should be no minimum ages at all. "Everyone was like, holy cow — did Rachel Levine really go out and lobby for 9-year-olds to get surgery?" one former Biden aide told me. (Levine's spokesman says she based "all policy recommendations on the best available science.")
Eight, DOJ felt hoodwinked, as some of the statements made in lower court proceedings could no longer be justified.
But in court, Justice Department lawyers had held up WPATH's recommendations, and those of other medical associations, as reliable guidelines for care. If the federal government could pick and choose from among WPATH's recommendations, Alabama's attorney general later argued in a blistering amicus brief in Skrmetti, why couldn't states? The White House understood its dilemma, two of the aides told me, but concluded that it was more important to prevent Trump from being re-elected.
There was also growing tension between the A.C.L.U. and the Justice Department, three former government officials told me. (The A.C.L.U. and a spokeswoman for Prelogar denied this account.) In later briefs to the court, the administration would brush off the Alabama revelations as "out-of-context excerpts" from "a different case." In private, though, some administration lawyers worried that their allies had pushed them onto thin scientific ice.
There is much here to consider. I still haven't finished reading Skrmetti. I think the Barrett and Alito opinions are worth careful consideration.
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The pro trans side was in a legal bind, given their unwillingness to compromise on anything. I suppose they could have demurred on this issue hoping for a favorable change in SCOTUS composition, or a victory at the appeals court level that didn't obtain cert (like keeps happening with 2A cases), preserving the issue for another day. Except time was not really on their side (as Blackman states), considering what limited WPATH discovery illuminated and subsequent societal pushback plus European pediatric health experts second thoughts. We've perhaps already passed the high water mark that Bostock represented. Too hot to ignore.
Their legal bind is needing to defend every absolutist position to satisfy the activist base, a tendency that infects both major parties, with each being driven by the motivated fringes. If trans cannot be a suspect class in many cases, positive law in blue states is the outer limits of their success. And we'll see whether that can survive current hostile federal regulatory interaction.
Why should trans people have to compromise on their rights?
Three assumptions there
1)there really is a such a thing as a trans . Science says "No"
2) That there are rights beyond human rights. Trans rights? I don't think so.
3) Insofar as trans is a way for psychos to abuse the rights of girls in lockers, men in military outfits and basic human decency (see picture) you have it backwards. I don't want a trans psycho in my daughter's locker room, hurting her in athletics reserved for females , or in public bathrooms.
These are 2 picks for high office that thrilled Joe Biden
Both very sick people
https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/328/6cc/2bdcf955702244f34033c29d249f9030df-dr-rachel-levine.rvertical.w330.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRK-r6TcDaj9spB7VaPhphRa7JtoijlIiXupQ&s
Because their idea of their legal rights as a default is false. Thanks for begging the question.
That thinking is exactly the kind of absolution that hurts the movement. I'm making a subjective political judgement, which no one is required to agree with. Trying to frame everything as human right, and therefore a violation of human rights, is quite possibly a losing position. Feel free to continue encouraging it be pursued!
Homosexual marriages are fake. They are just friendships. Marriage was to keep the male from leaving the family of children. Children raised by single mothers have a lot of social pathology. Marriage has become a lawyer trap for the productive party. I used to think tthe law was biased against males. Then, I spoke to a female physician about her nightmare divorce from her lawyer husband. Marriage is to plunder the assets of the productive party to enrich the lawyer profession.
Homosexuals have markedly above incomes. Their average income is a full standard deviation higher than that of heterosexuals. They are not stupid, and they have not fallen for this lawyer trap. Even today, half of heterosexuals are married. Only 8% of homosexuals are married.
Lust is what it has always been. IF you define a perversion as something nobody does or would want to do you've lost the entire definition.
Only stupid males get married now -- 60+ years ago, marriage also benefited men. Harry Truman was mistaken -- he had Bess.
https://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/excellent-critiques-of-bostock-ruling/
Excellent Critiques of Bostock Ruling
Even assuming your premises are 100% accurate, the answer is because they're a very very small minority who lack majority or even substantial minority support for their absolutist positions. Their (short term) choice is to compromise or lose. (In the long run, of course, they can try to persuade more to support them.)
The civil rights movement's legal strategy did not start by demanding integrated schools; it started by demanding the "equal" part of "separate but equal." Why "should" it have had to compromise? Because that was the only way to make progress.
*sigh* Your pragmatic take is, unfortunately, the correct one.
It's just ... well, it just sucks. It sucks because it's pretty documented at this point that the reason that trans rights are in the crosshairs is because the long campaign against gay rights turned out to be a loser, and this was a created issue- but, of course, the eventual target is gay rights. And it also sucks because (as you note) trans people are a very, very, very small minority so it's easy to demonize and attack them. But it doesn't make it any less evil- if anything, it's more evil.
It's heart-breaking, actually.
"It sucks because it's pretty documented at this point that the reason that trans rights are in the crosshairs is because the long campaign against gay rights turned out to be a loser, and this was a created issue- but, of course, the eventual target is gay rights."
The 75% of people who don't want men to compete in women's sports are targeting gay rights? I had no idea there was so much opposition.
1) What documentation?
2) There was no loss on gay rights--just edicts from courts
3) I've been told ad nauseum that gay people are not trans and trans people are not gay. Why do you reinvigorate the stereotype?
4) Trans people may be a small minority but they have the support of one of the major political parties who seem to have signed on to all absolutist aspects of the agenda. That's not powerlessness.
And, guess what, probably partly as a result of this support for such an unpopular position, that party has lost significant support nationally over the last decade.
"The civil rights movement's legal strategy did not start by demanding integrated schools; it started by demanding the 'equal' part of 'separate but equal.'"
You seem to be assuming that "integrated" and not "equal" was the goal.
Unfortunately they never got either.
This legislation just regulates some medical care for children.
Children lack many rights adults have.
If a 9 year old child decides they want a large breasts, can the government regulate the medical industry and say that breast implants at that age are not a decision a child can make at that age, or a parent can make for them?
I they already do, in fact federal regulations prohibit silicon implants for patients under 22.
When haven't people in some fashion compromised when fighting for their rights? We live in an imperfect society. Compromise is necessary. Not that I support the premise.
Trans people are not all absolutists. This very case was about a limited thing. Surgery wasn't involved. The goal was to seek heightened scrutiny and send it back to apply. It dealt with equal protection, not the parental rights argument.
Trans people repeatedly seek out specific things. The book "Becoming Nicole," for instance, is a good case study. The family involved didn't aim for everything. It focused on certain things.
Ideally, people should not have to compromise their rights. But we don't live in utopia. We have to deal with the hand we are dealt.
Yesh - it’s about whacking off body parts and chemical castration of kids. Nobody really cared when Bruce Jenner Kardasian became Kaitlin Jenner. They do care about it when it’s done to kids well before the age of consent or sexual or brain maturity.
There is no right to access a particular bathroom, locker room, sports team, etc.
What rights are being compromised?
Why should trans people have to compromise on their rights?
Why can't I drive around with a (loaded) .50 cal machine gun mounted on my vehicle.
Tranny rights conflicted with other rights:
1: Parental rights.
2: Society's rights to protect children (see drinking age, etc.).
3: Society's rights to protect the mentally ill from self harm. (See involuntary psych commitment).
4: Society's rights to prevent harmful medical practices. (See Harrison Narcotics Act.)
Their legal bind is needing to defend every absolutist position to satisfy the activist base
No.
The L & T are mutually exclusive -- when you have one group that wants to ban men from the public square and another that wants people to believe that they aren't men, it literally is Lincoln's house divided.
You have one group that insists -- absolutely insists -- on special privileges for biological females. You have another group that insists -- absolutely insists -- on being treated as biological females even though they aren't.
There is no way to resolve this, no compromise is possible.
Yes, at a time when bullying gay people is no longer socially acceptable, bullying trans people has proven to be a successful electoral strategy for reactionaries. All the more reason for the courts to protect them, but standing up to reactionaries isn't the sort of thing American courts have been doing in recent years. So this is hardly a surprise.
So gay and trans are all normal and nice but hey 'reactionaries' [ defined by you ] not nice across the board.
LGBT folks living as their genuine selves is normal and nice, just as straight cisgender folks living their reality is normal and nice.
Virulent hatemongering is abnormal and not nice at all.
The data say otherwise.
You're confused about who is doing the bullying. Are trans people bullied? Sure! Are some people, especially women, who object to biological males in their sensitive spaces, also bullied? Absolutely! I don't agree with your implicit intersectionality calculus that only trans person are at risk of harm.
One need only observe J.K. Rowling's public advocacy about this topic. She is unambiguous about her desire to speak up for other women who do not have the means of defending themselves for objecting to actual women being harmed by this consequences of this agenda.
In what alternate universe is protecting minors, minors who are suffering mental illnesses, from surgical and chemical mutilations bullying?
"Yes, at a time when bullying gay people is no longer socially acceptable, bullying trans people has proven to be a successful electoral strategy for reactionaries. All the more reason for the courts to protect them, but standing up to reactionaries isn't the sort of thing American courts have been doing in recent years. So this is hardly a surprise."
Overt bashing of gays and lesbians became less socially acceptable in the wake of marriage equality becoming available nationwide. I suspect this is because as same sex attracted people became more visible, more mainstream folks (but not the hardcore haters) realized that the bashing was hurting someone dear to them.
As a result, the haters needed to find a target that was less numerous, less well organized and whose members were less likely to be "out." Transgender folks conveniently fit every one of these criteria.
Your complaint is with the Democrat Party, as it turned wholly in favor of sexually grooming and mutilating children.
Uh, "the Democrat Party" is not a thing. "Democrat" is a noun." The adjective form thereof is "Democratic." Why do you think that the use of non-standard English is persuasive? In fact, it is a prime indicator of ignorance/stupidity.
Is the impulse to channel Joe McCarthy, as well as Rush Limbaugh and his imitators, irresistible? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDvQ77JP8nw
not guilty 4 hours ago
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Uh, "the Democrat Party" is not a thing. "
Beta phi delta
The difference between democrat party and democratic party is nothing more than the use of a generic term commonly used for the democratic party.
All marriage "equality" did was to finish what no fault divorce started -- marriage is about as relevant as a slide rule.
"We often think of the political left as some sort of monolithic and coherent institution of group think."
....I mean, every now and then, JB accidentally types a comment that provides a true revelation into his lack of self-awareness.
I do mean that seriously. But to be more specific, I would note the following:
1. At this point, "the left" to JB likely consists of 70% of the American public. Including a lot that would normally be classified as the right.
2. But generously construing this as the "actual left," the idea that they are monolithic is laughable. Even putting aside the differences between the major standard political wings (e.g., the Blue Dogs, the New Democrats, the Progressives) there are vicious and notable disagreements within the left on everything from economics (e.g., free trade v. protectionist, free market approaches v. government intervention) to social issues (free speech absolutists v. "disinformation" worriers) to ... well, everything.
Arguably the only uniting factor right now is a distaste of the current administration, and even on that there are areas of specific agreement with some "leftists" on some policies.
It's almost as if ... to quote Soylent Green ... THEY'RE PEOPLE! THEY AREN'T ABSTRACT POLITICAL ENTITES, THE OTHER SIDE IS MADE OUT OF PEOPLE!!!!!!
70 percent of the American public - and yet not only does Trump get elected but wins the popular vote while the Democrats are seeing historic low approval and the DNC is considering borrowing money to pay the bills.
Doesn't sound like the 70 percent support what you think they do.
Unlike the fractured political left, I am very confident that the political right these days is very much a monolithic and coherent institution of group think.
But we see that your brazen stupidity has grown to the point where you are unaware that you are saying everyone else is left or right, except you , making you godlike. Not fractured. not part of any monolith, innoculated against groupthink. and oh yes "very confident' 🙂
Quoting the 'vile' New York Times. I'm shocked. Are you getting soft Josh?
"We often think of the political left as some sort of monolithic and coherent institution of group think."
I mean, you might have thought that, but the exact opposite is a common punchline in jokes. See the famous Life of Brian splitters scene for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY
When a political group defines itself only by what it's against, there are infinite numbers of reasons to oppose X, so yes, monolithic but monolithically diverse, forced diverse. I can only compare it to Woodstock, show up in a suit and you will be dead in minutes.
The reaponse is monolithic but the reasons are infinite.
"I can only compare it to Woodstock, show up in a suit and you will be dead in minutes."
According to Wikipedia, there were three recorded fatalities at Woodstock: two drug overdoses and another caused when a tractor ran over a 17-year-old sleeping in a nearby hayfield. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock No word on how the decedents were attired.
Yeah, that's weird. Hippies were not known to be particularly violent vs 'normies' or even The Man.
It's really much simpler. Gay marriage is less offensive to fewer people than child mutilation. And Europe, the supposed font of enlightened opinion, has the same ban as Tennessee. So no surprise, SCOTUS went this way in this case.
The rest is lawyerly navel gazing.
It really is that simple. Most people in the political middle are live and let live. They don't see a problem with gay marriage.
When you talk about genital mutilation of children and seeing their daughters lose to a biological boy in sports that strikes a reasonable person, not one off in a flight of fancy on a political whim, as something that is undesirable.
There is no grand conspiracy out there against trans people. Try to pass a law banning adults from getting these procedures and the trans side likely wins the public opinion. This is simply democracy.
And frankly I find their positions extreme. It would be as if Obergefell found a right to gay marriage for minors of any age. People wouldn't support that either.
Uh, this lawsuit did not involve "genital mutilation of children". The haters have spread that red herring in Goebbels like fashion. What does that say about them?
Genital surgery was not at issue in the case before SCOTUS whatsoever. The District Court opined:
L.W. ex rel. Williams v. Skrmetti, 679 F.Supp.3d 668, 681 (M.D. Tenn. 2023) [footnote omitted], rev'd on other grounds, 83 F.4th 460 (6th Cir.). No one appealed that issue.
The issue was chemical mutilation of the genitals, and the rest of the body. It is fair to call that genital mutilation, even if non-surgical.
"Uh, this lawsuit did not involve 'genital mutilation of children'. "
Proceeds to quote portion of lawsuit involving genital mutilation of children.
+1
The portion of the statute prohibiting genital surgery was not litigated, doofus, because no Plaintiff had standing to do so. No Article III case or controversy was before the federal courts regarding that provision. Genital surgery accordingly was not at issue in the case before SCOTUS whatsoever.
Twelveinchpeckerchecker, you illustrate what Ron White is fond of saying, "you can't fix stupid. There's not a pill you can take. There's not a class you can go to. Stupid is fo'evah!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDvQ77JP8nw
So what you meant to say was that this lawsuit did involve "genital mutilation of children," but the plaintiffs lost the issue below on standing, and also managed to lose it for future plaintiffs that do have standing.
Got it.
Dumbass.
No, doofus. Any plaintiff in federal court is required to plead and prove standing to litigate, not only as to one issue, but as to each issue sought to be raised. A district court finding that a plaintiff in one lawsuit does not have standing on an issue does not preclude that a differently situated plaintiff raising the same kind of issue in another lawsuit.
A 15 year old plaintiff (other than L.W.) who sues in federal court claiming that he wishes to undergo gender reassignment surgery in Tennessee which is prohibited by SB1, along with a plaintiff surgeon who is willing to perform the procedure, would likely lose on the merits, but not for lack of standing.
No one ever said that legal analysis is easy.
"A 15 year old plaintiff (other than L.W.) who sues in federal court claiming that he wishes to undergo gender reassignment surgery in Tennessee which is prohibited by SB1, along with a plaintiff surgeon who is willing to perform the procedure, would likely lose on the merits, but not for lack of standing."
Sigh. And why would they likely lose on the merits, dumbass?
So the issue was raised and if a future plaintiff would challenge a law banning genital mutilation of children to the courts he would lose because of the precedent set in Skrmetti.
“ Bostock killed the possibility of legislative compromise”
Um, what. Bostock was based on the text of the 1964 Civil Rights act. The legislature had already compromised on the law. What Blackman is really saying is that Gorsuch should have ignored the plain meaning of the law to give the policy outcome he really wished for.
When you read a policy that an organization forbids discrimination based on "race, sex, religion, national origin, sexual orientation..." do your eyes rise from the paper and leave you in a state of confusion as to why the person repeated themselves?
Yes, they do. I’ve always found those policies redundant.
The legislature did no such thing. The notion that the 1964 Congress was voting for gay or trans rights is absurd.
That's like saying that "freedom of the press" in the First Amendment means I have a Constitutional right to iron my pants.
Yes, good point. No one thought the law empowered a male employee to wear a dress to work.
You, like Blackman, are advocating for purposivism, not textualism. You can claim it is absurd, but it’s what congress actually did if you read the plan text. It’s not the job of the courts to rewrite statutes the way they think congress would have done it had they been more careful with their words. Bostock was the inevitable outcome for a textualist.
Bostock rewrote the text to mean something fundamentally different than what everyone recognized it meant for decades. "Living statutarianism" is even worse than "living constitutionalism".
No. Textualism does not mean you read the words out of their context. Otherwise, you ascribe a meaning to them that no one thought at the time.
As Prof. Volokh has written, freedom of the press was understood at the time as the freedom to publish printed speech. As in the "printing press." Not a special freedom for some professional institution called "the press." That we give the word that usage today does not mean it had it when the First Amendment was passed.
If claiming that the first amendment's guarantee of freedom of the press doesn't protect the right to iron your pants is "advocating for purposivism, not textualism" then OK.
Why's that bad?
Original public meaning - it doesn't matter what they thought they were passing. What matters is the text they put on the page.
Like, imagine 'All men are created equal' was in the US constitution rather than than the declaration of independence. Many people who voted for those words also had slaves or were pro slavery. (Though some did see the contradiction). A court enforcing those words in our hypothetical should apply the words that are actually written, not the 'of course we weren't voting to ban slavery' in the minds of some of the people who voted for it.
Thomas's concurrence brings up the important point about whether its appropriate to for courts to defer to medical or other technical experts, when the legislature or Congress chose not to.
One other point is these treatments, specifically puberty blockers and hormone treatments are relatively new and there is almost no research on their long term effects.
It's well known that the human brain doesn't fully develop until late teens or even early 20's, what effect do puberty blockers have on that process? What effect do masculinization hormones have on brain development of a 15 year old girl?
I don't know, but it seems prudent to require children to wait at least until 18 to find out.
That's just our system of government. We The People rule. There is no mechanism by which a certain percentage of undefined "experts" get to veto popular legislation passed by elected representatives.
To add to that, if it did, then what happens when the expert consensus changes (as it has on many issues over time)? Does an unconstitutional law suddenly become Constitutional?
Expert consensus is often group think.
At my high school reunion this last summer, a classmate who became an "infectious disease expert" at a major LA hospital/research center commented that without masking and vaccination, there would have been 500k children in the US dead from covid. That rates up there with sotomayor comment that there were 100k kids hospitalized.
And the CDC fatality rate for those under 20 was less than 1 in a million (regardless of masking, etc). That would seem to mean that we had maybe 500,000,000,000 kids in the country. Which is maybe 75 times the world population. How does someone become an “infectious disease expert” without basic numeracy?
Was in Thomas that brought up the extent that WPATH hid conflicting data in the studies?
Probably not since those facts were not part of the record. Though it should be disturbing that the advocates claim the mantle of science while hiding from the science.
As Thomas pointed out,
Whatever happened to Rule 3.3 of the Rules of Professional Conduct: Candor Toward the Tribunal?
How can an attorney knowingly make a false statement of fact or present evidence that he knows to be false to a court that, for example, his client who has male sexual organs, male chromosomal markers, and a "male" listing on his birth certificate is nevertheless female? In the complaint in this case, his family's attorneys knowingly and falsely stated to the United States District Court for the Middle District of Tennessee that, "L.W. is a fifteen-year-old girl." Why have these attorneys not been disbarred?
They are Democrats. Rule 3.3 doesn’t apply.
From the article:
[ACLU lawyer Chase] Strangio disputed that a trans woman could be “born with a male body” or “born male”; in his view, a trans woman was born a woman just like any other woman. There was no such thing as a “male body,” Strangio told his colleagues: “A penis is not a male body part. It’s just an unusual body part for a woman.”
Me: Stop right there. This isn't science, this is just activism going WAY too far. No wonder there's a backlash.
It is beyond activism. It is mental illness. It is already crazy to describe a newborn baby as a woman, whether male or female.
"Everyone was like, holy cow — did Rachel Levine really go out and lobby for 9-year-olds to get surgery?"
I find that more than plausible.
There is a whole sickening subculture who try to "hatch eggs" by grooming children.
These people are sick.
"There is a whole sickening subculture who try to 'hatch eggs' by grooming children."
What does the Roman Catholic Church have to do with this discussion, RedheadedPharoh?
You misspelled Democrat Anthony Weiner.
“ We often think of the political left as some sort of monolithic and coherent institution of group think.”
Whoever “we” is seems ill informed or not very bright.
I think you're forgetting the way SSM was democratically voted down in state after state, (Yes, even in California!) and advanced only because of judges deciding to impose it on an unwilling public.
They didn't so much win the public over as benefit from the public realizing that the judiciary did not mean to let public opinion matter, and that persisting in opposition might even get you targeted for retaliation. Once judges wrote SSM into the federal Constitution it was all over: We would have needed a super majority in Congress to restore the status quo ante, advocates needed a modest minority to block that restoration.
By the time Obergefell came around, the Court was just doing cleanup, the judiciary had won the war, the futility of resistance had been proven over and over.
As noted above, you lot are coming to relitigate gay rights next.
Assuming that's true, how would we do that? SCOTUS has put the whole issue outside of the democratic process.
If by "relitigate" you mean literally take a new case back up to SCOTUS, what votes would we have other than Thomas and Alito? I can only count to two on this issue.
The gay rights is over. Your claim is baseless.
I don't know that the fight for marriage equality is over yet. There is still the risk that the black robed wardheelers of SCOTUS will grant certiorari on a collateral issue and broaden their consideration thereof to overrule Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U.S. 644 (2015), similarly to how they did with the Fifth Circuit decision upholding the challenge to Mississippi's abortion law in Jackson Women's Health Org. v. Dobbs, 945 F.3d 265 (5th Cir. 2019), reversed 597 U.S. 215 (2022).
On April 28, 2025 the Sixth Circuit denied rehearing in Kimberly Jean Bailey Wallace Davis McIntyre Davis's appeal from the District Court's award of attorney fees to two gay plaintiffs to whom she unlawfully denied a marriage license in 2015. https://lc.org/PDFs/Attachments2PRsLAs/2025/250428-1%20-OrderDenyingRehearing.pdf In a fundraising appeal (as Gomer Pyle would say, Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!) her counsel has stated that he will ask SCOTUS to answer whether the First Amendment shields Davis from liability for emotional damages based solely on hurt feelings while arguing that Obergefell should be overruled. https://lc.org/newsroom/details/061225-obergefell-marriage-opinion-must-be-overturned-1
It’s as much a culture war as a legal one. A losing one I hope, but plenty of hurt and needless drama in the fighting.
Religious freedom is the push. Nibble around the outside till equal rights for sexual orientation has so many exceptions might as well overrule it.
I mean read Brett and his revisionist history if gay marriage. Read the folks rewarding the old gays are pedophiles playbook with groomer bullshit. Or the families are a mommy and daddy to be evolutionarily optimal people.
The appetite is there.
*fingers crossed*
FYI there is no right to have your particular romantic configuration licensed and taxed by a government.
Multiple people have cited how the NYT has taken a dubious anti-trans line, including certain op-ed writers. Its bona fides on this issue, putting aside stereotypes (see also as loki notes as to "the left," a common trope for some VC commenters), is mixed at best.
Ah. Dilan Esper. He commented here in the past. He is, suffice it to say, not exactly a median liberal voice. I'll just note that from experience.
As to how "vile" the Supreme Court is, well, they ruled 6-3 against trans rights in a shoddy opinion (IMHO) among other things (e.g., ending abortion rights & supporting immunity for Trump).
The word is blunt, but in various ways, fair. It's like when Republicans go after people like Kate Shaw for saying a justice is "evil" about something. I don't know how much "bamboolzing" is going on either. Bostock in principle is not narrow at all, though it can be interpreted that way.
"I think the Barrett and Alito opinions are worth careful consideration." I'm not surprised. Her gratuitous anti-trans opinion is particularly disappointing. Maybe it will rekindle JB's support of Barrett in a small way.
A good case can be made (as noted in yesterday's open thread) that it was a bad idea to bring this case to the current Supreme Court. Doesn't mean Sotomayor was wrong. But she isn't in the majority.
There was a push in 2004, with people like Eugene Volokh amendment curious ("maybe if it was a federalist amendment"), to amend the Constitution to "protect" us against same sex marriage. We are in a period of trans hysertia.
Deep down, I think there is a broad possibility of agreement that targeting trans people is bad. Certain subjects are more likely to be easy targets. Medical decisions (even though this case is not about surgery) are one such issue. Again, doesn't make this legislation valid. It's horrible, and Sotomayor is right.
But we are at the "don't try to fight interracial marriage yet" stage of trans rights. To be clear, even this opinion was a limited loss. Roberts' opinion was confused just for that reason -- his half of the conservatives only wanted to go so far.
The majority's conclusion in Skrmetti that SB1 does not classify on the basis of transgender status, such that the Court need not address the District Court's finding transgender individuals to constitute a quasi-suspect class, is rank intellectual dishonesty.
This decision should leave in place Court of Appeals decisions that have found transgender individuals to constitute a quasi-suspect class (as well as those Court of Appeals decisions that have rejected that claim). We will still have the anomaly of some circuits applying intermediate scrutiny to discrimination against transgenders and other circuits applying rational basis analysis.
I agree. The issue clearly was raised and needed addressed. To say that TN law didn't target transgender individuals but only minors is silly.
That's like saying that black minors have to sit at the back of the bus and saying that law wasn't targeting race, on minority status.
Mind you, we would come out on different sides of the issue, but in my opinion Alito was right---it needed addressed because it was argued as a reason by the Plaintiffs.
" We are in a period of trans hysertia."
True, you're just misidentifying who the hysterics are.
Are they the ones who say things like, "A penis is not a male body part. It’s just an unusual body part for a woman."?
And they will not compromise on saying that a woman can have a penis.
"And they will not compromise on saying that a woman can have a penis."
Actually a woman can have as many penises as she chooses.
A five year old boy excitedly told a four year old girl, "I've got something that you don't have," whereupon he pulled down his pants and proudly showed her his appendage.
The girl in turn lowered her pants, pointed and replied, "Well, my mommy tells me that with just one of these, I can have all of those that I want!"
You are sick. Why are you showing dicks to your 4 year old? Pride parade? School teacher?
It's what's called a joke. You're like one of those creatures from '28 Days Later' that doesn't have access to social cues, clues and the like, unable to interact without anger. The rage is all. Fits your profile.
There's hysterics on both sides, to be sure.
But if you read around here, the hysteria is on the ones yelling about mutilation in a case not about that, among many other melodramatics on the issue.
Maybe it's not fair, since the liberals around here are fewer and more willing to deal with contrary points of view. So there's a sample bias comparing loki with Roger S or Brett.
But one of the fun things around here is watching sober types like DMN calling out anti-trans hysterics even though he's very much not a supporter of the trans movement.
"But if you read around here, the hysteria is on the ones yelling about mutilation in a case not about that, among many other melodramatics on the issue."
As NG points out, the plaintiffs lost the mutilation issue on standing in the district court, and the precedent in this case settles the issue for future plaintiffs with standing.
But whatever you got to tell yourself.
"As NG points out, the plaintiffs lost the mutilation issue on standing in the district court, and the precedent in this case settles the issue for future plaintiffs with standing."
That is not at all what I said, Twelveinchpeckerchecker. You lie when you attribute that to me.
A district court ruling does not create precedent, even as to a subsequent case in the same court. Any plaintiff in federal court is required to plead and prove standing to litigate, not only as to one issue, but as to each issue sought to be raised. A district court finding that a plaintiff in one lawsuit does not have standing on an issue does not preclude that a differently situated plaintiff raising the same kind of issue in another lawsuit.
A 15 year old plaintiff (other than L.W.) who sues in federal court claiming that he wishes to undergo gender reassignment surgery in Tennessee which is prohibited by SB1, along with a plaintiff surgeon who is willing to perform the procedure, would likely lose on the merits, but not for lack of standing.
"A 15 year old plaintiff (other than L.W.) who sues in federal court claiming that he wishes to undergo gender reassignment surgery in Tennessee which is prohibited by SB1, along with a plaintiff surgeon who is willing to perform the procedure, would likely lose on the merits, but not for lack of standing."
And why would they likely lose on the merits, Mr. Peckerplucker?
You liberals are so open minded and rational!!! Unlike those wacky conservatives !
Hysterics like doctors telling parents, "You can have a dead daughter or a live son"?
The transes couldn't compromise on a single thing because doing so would admit their arguments were nonsense. Exceptions or compromises would cement the fact that transwomen weren't real authentic women which undercuts their entire ideology.
Men cannot become women.
Women cannot become men.
The earth is not flat.
This is the world you live in.
Deal with it without trying to force me to join your delusions.
Amidst a very perceptive analysis of the NYT article, Professor Blackman can't resist attacking the Bostock case as a Gorsuch boner. But he ignores the following fact:
Bostock was a case of statutory analysis, not constitutional analysis. Blackman ignores this distinction, as, I would note, do a lot of the Skrmetti decision's critics on the left. There's no inconsistency in finding that a statute protecting transgender people from discrimination is not the same thing as applying 14th amendment equal protection strict scrutiny to laws affecting transgender people.
It's a distinction Professor Blackman has a problem with. The largest flaw in a generally very good constitutional law case compilation authored by Blackman and Barnett is the inclusion of the Hobby Lobby case, which is a case of statutory interpretation, not constitutional law.
Only Alito directly gave a distinction between Title VII and the EP (the latter requires "a plaintiff must show that the challenged law differentiates between the two biological sexes: male and female"). It seems to me the but-for standard at the individual ought to apply to the EP as well. It is however true, the EP gives the government an out if it can overcome intermediate scrutiny. I'm not sure Title VII does.