The Volokh Conspiracy
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Second Amendment Roundup: Cert denied in rifle and magazine ban cases.
Justice Kavanaugh: “this Court should and presumably will address the AR–15 issue soon.”
After fifteen re-listings, on June 2 the Supreme Court denied cert in Snope v. Brown, which concerns Maryland's ban on semiautomatic rifles, and Ocean State Tactical v. Rhode Island, which concerns Rhode Island's magazine ban. I previously discussed these cases here.
Cert denial in Ocean State was more predictable, even though Justices Thomas, Alito, and Gorsuch would have granted the petition, as it sought review of denial of a preliminary injunction. But in Snope (styled Bianchi v. Brown in the 4th Circuit) – which has a final judgment based on a full record –Justices Alito and Gorsuch are listed as having been in the "would have granted" category, with Justice Thomas writing a dissent from denial. The big news is that Justice Kavanaugh issued a statement in Snope concluding that "this Court should and presumably will address the AR–15 issue soon, in the next Term or two."
According to Justice Kavanaugh, "Americans today possess an estimated 20 to 30 million AR–15s," which are "legal in 41 of the 50 States, meaning that the States such as Maryland that prohibit AR–15s are something of an outlier." That suggests that AR–15s meet Heller's "common use" test, as then-D.C. Circuit Judge Kavanaugh opined in Heller 2. "If so, then the Fourth Circuit would have erred by holding that Maryland's ban on AR–15s complies with the Second Amendment."
Moreover, Justice Kavanaugh continues, "it can be analytically difficult to distinguish the AR–15s at issue here from the handguns at issue in Heller." Most handguns are semiautomatic, as is the AR–15 rifle, and law-abiding citizens use both for lawful purposes such as self-defense in the home.
Several circuits are considering the issue, including the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, and 9th, and more cert petitions will likely come before the Court. Further appellate decisions will be forthcoming that "should assist this Court's ultimate decisionmaking on the AR–15 issue." That's the basis for Justice Kavanaugh's prediction that the Court will decide the issue in the near future.
Justice Thomas dissented from the denial of certiorari. Contrary to the Fourth Circuit, AR–15s are "arms" under the plain text of the Second Amendment, shifting the burden to Maryland to show that banning them is "consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." The lower court's "reasoning is dubious at least twice over" by placing too high a burden to show that the Amendment presumptively protects the conduct and by claiming that AR–15s are "dangerous and unusual." In more detail:
The Fourth Circuit erred by requiring the challengers to prove that the Second Amendment protects their right to own AR–15s—or, in the terms of our Second Amendment jurisprudence, that their conduct falls outside the historical exceptions to the right to keep and bear arms. A challenger need only show that "the plain text" of the Second Amendment covers his conduct. Bruen, 597 U. S., at 32. This burden is met if the law at issue "regulates" Americans' "arms-bearing conduct." Rahimi, 602 U. S., at 691. Once the challenger makes this initial showing, it is the government's burden to show that a historic limit on the right to bear arms nevertheless justifies its regulation. The Fourth Circuit placed the burden of producing historical evidence on the wrong party.
Further, the Fourth Circuit "eschewed any inquiry into the commonality of AR–15s and the purposes for which they are used, which it dismissed as an 'ill-conceived popularity test.'" Instead, it invented its own tests of "utility for self-defense," "military origin," "firepower," and "muzzle velocity." But the American people, not the government, decides which arms to use for self-defense. Contrary to the lower court, that does not lead to absurd results, such as individual use of a nuclear warhead, which would never come into common use for self-defense. "To fend off the fantastical threat of Americans lobbing nuclear warheads at one another, the Fourth Circuit has allowed the very real threat of the government depriving Americans of the rifle that they most favor for protecting themselves and their families."
Justice Thomas would not wait to decide the issue, which the Court has now avoided for a decade. "And, further percolation is of little value when lower courts in the jurisdictions that ban AR–15s appear bent on distorting this Court's Second Amendment precedents…. I doubt we would sit idly by if lower courts were to so subvert our precedents involving any other constitutional right."
* * *
In resisting Heller's common-use test, the Fourth Circuit in Bianchi repeated the myth that "approximately 740,000 machineguns [were] registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives as of May 2021." Not even close. By letter dated May 29, 2025, ATF responded to a Freedom of Information Act request from attorney George L. Lyon showing "the number of MGs [machineguns] added to the NFRTR [National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record]" from the enactment of the National Firearms Act through 1986, when new machineguns were banned from private hands by 18 U.S.C. § 922(o). Excluding machineguns held by government agencies or which are otherwise non-transferable, the total comes to 169,100. The actual number is lower, as the ATF report states that some of these would have been double counted.
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Did these bans eliminate gang violence in the inner city?
Yes, because if they don't prosecute it, it never happened.
The MD ban isn't really a ban. You can still buy "MD-compliant" AR-15s. The key work around appears to be to label the barrel "heavy." There is no legal definition of "heavy."
The only material question is the 10 round magazine limit.
Reading between the lines, Kavanaugh wanted to grant cert but Flight Log Roberts and Comey-Souter didn’t. So he put this out as compromise/ warning
I agree with this analysis. There is no other possibility.
It's been 17 years since SCOTUS confirmed that the 2nd Amendment protected a personal right to keep and bear arms and we still have hoplophobic judges defying the precedents established in Heller, Mcdonald, and Bruen. When are the people who vehemently fight to protect the right of a violent, wife beating, illegal alien to stay in this country illegally going to speak out against these judges who are obviously flouting SCOTUS precedent?
I wouldn’t say hoplophobic as much I would “public safety disaster” averse (it’s why any hint of “national security” often gets a lot of deference). A lot of judges are former prosecutors who have had good reason in their careers to figure heavily the political winds.
Yep. Contrary to the protestations of dishonest hacks in the other thread, in the bluest states, not much has really changed since Heller. Sure, you can get a carry permit now, after jumping through tons of disingenuous hoops, but you can barely carry anywhere, as everything is deemed "sensitive."
Feature bans are still in place. >10 magazine bans are still in place. On the federal law, the unconstitutional NFA and GCA are still in place. The flatly unconstitutional ban on guns in post offices is still in place.
That's what I was saying in the other thread. A poster was talking about the extensive 2A right that we have. But what has SCOTUS done, in total?
1) It got rid of outlier handgun bans in D.C., Chicago, and some small towns. Good. But really didn't affect the vast majority of people.
2) Says you can get a shall issue carry permit. But they allow states to flout the decision by making so many places off limits that you realistically cannot carry outside your home because you will almost certainly encounter a "no carry" sensitive place. Therefore you are effectively denied the right to carry in these states.
And that brings us to the end of our list. That is all that SCOTUS has done for the 2A. That's it.
The 2A exposes originalists as unprincipled cowards. Regular citizens can buy and keep whatever military weapons they want in their homes under the original meaning. This can't seriously be disputed, and this means countless bans and regulations are unconstitutional. Yet the same originalists who strike down bans on porn and flag burning can't imagine letting the peasants have an M16. Shameful stuff.
Yes, but they're fine with the goons that protect them having those M16s.
If we don't "need" full autos, police don't either.
I keep saying this: If you're actually an originalist, you don't end up on the Supreme court. Nobody exercising the wildly inflated power of the federal government is going to knowingly nominate or confirm a justice who'd declare it unconstitutional!
You get halfway, or faint hearted, or compromising originalists, at best. At BEST.
But even the ones who don't even claim to be originalists pretend to be, when it's time to write an opinion, because they want the public to believe the Constitution really means what they claim it means, and you can't get that if you admit to pulling your meaning out of your ass.
Yes. The supposed father of originalism, Scalia, held that the federal government could ban marijuana use, even if grown and smoked in state, on the grounds that it interfered with a national framework of regulation.
He also said, famously "death is different," but without any real principled argument in favor of that position.
He was as much as a dishonest political hack as Ginsburg, Kagan, Sotomayor, and Jackson are. He was just on the other side.
USPS ban makes sense, because you don't want mail carriers to have guns...
So you're saying that because "going postal" is a thing, we should deprive customers (who, by definition, can't "go postal") of not only a constitutional right but also the natural human right to defend themselves when a postal employee who is self-evidently undetered by the laws against murder also decides to ignore the laws and regulations against bringing a weapon to his/her place of employment. Yeah, that makes sense...
Side note: If your comment was intended as sarcasm, ... I was going to say "Sorry, I didn't get it" but the right answer is "If that's the case, you don't do sarcasm well. Either do sarcasm better or don't try."
You mean libertarians? We speak out about unconstitutional gun control every time it comes up.
Perhaps the Court is just trying to triage its limited time to deal with all the unprecedented unconstitutional acts already committed by the 2nd Trump Reich in only its first six months in power?
How much time would actually be needed, to just issue a stack of summary reversals?
SCOTUS needs to focus on opening a new 2A front having as its holding that not only are arms protected for personal self defense use, but are ESPECIALLY protected for a citizen's use to drill in a civilian militia, participate in militia defense of the homeland and as civilian, perform OFFENSIVE firefight action in times of invasion, constitutional usurpation or insurrection.
Right now all 2nd Amendment jurisprudence revolves around individual self defense in the home or a bodega from a criminal assault. Once SCOTUS gets past the personal self defense legal structure, and embraces/enacts the "security of a free state/martial purpose" legal structure, all civilian owned military small arms become constitutionally protected. Scotus can get away from the stupid "common use" analysis, and go back to the Miller standard of protecting 2A guns when "suitable for use in a militia".
SCOTUS has a bright line to be had, to safely draw the line historically and practically: if the current military (and police) find semi-auto, and full auto small arms useful, then the civilian militia gets to privately own the same type of arm. The Court can draw the line at rifles and pistols, in that the historical tradition has civilian militias mostly drilling, marching, and doing small unit maneuvers holding these standard issue individual weapons, ie., the military rifle and pistol. The Court can thusly omit squad automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons, and nuclear arms from constitutional protection, while leaving M4's and pistols with whatever magazine the army is issuing. And if the evolution of small arms is such that the average grunt is some day issued phaser pistols and plasma rifles, then the civilians get them too. If we stick with the "common use" standard, the civilian is stuck forever with the current weapon technology.
Perhaps the 2A believing justices on SCOTUS are waiting for a best situated assault weapon to open the "second front" on the 2A by holding civilian martial arms constitutionally protected to participate in things more significant than shooting the local stick-up junkie.
Interesting approach but I think it founders (or at least, flounders) on the historical precedent of private ownership of crew-served weapons such as cannons and warships.
Nah. Nobody was expected to muster and drill in the city commons with a cannon or a warship.
Assume that 41 of 50 states had BANNED the AR-15. Should that make a constitutional significance in Kavanaugh's view?
Why does a government regulation act towards its own justification?
It shouldn't, but that precedent was set with the "evolving standards of decency" test for the 8th Amendment cruel and unusual cases. So if 45 states prohibit executing a minor, then it becomes unconstitutional for the remaining 5 to do so. It was patently dishonest then, and it's patently dishonest as applied to whether an arm is in "common use."
The AR-15 ban in question isn't really a ban.
You can have an AR-15 if you call it an AR-556.
Ruger sells one for Maryland.
The Fanny Hill ban wasn't really a ban. You could have other books.
Assume that 41 of 50 states had BANNED the AR-15. Should that make a constitutional significance in Kavanaugh's view?
Why does a government regulation act towards its own justification?
It doesn't, nor was that Kavanaugh's point...which was obvious from the part you left out:
"Americans today possess an estimated 20 to 30 million AR–15s," which are "legal in 41 of the 50 States, meaning that the States such as Maryland that prohibit AR–15s are something of an outlier.""
So ARs are clearly already in "common use", and were so before bans like the one in MD were put in place. And note that's just AR-15 patterned rifles, which doesn't even include the other widely owned styles of firearms that bans like the MD one prohibit.
"In resisting Heller's common-use test, the Fourth Circuit in Bianchi repeated the myth that "approximately 740,000 machineguns [were] registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives as of May 2021." "
This point really pisses me off. Why are so few machine guns privately owned? Because the government largely banned them, during a period when the Supreme court was refusing 2nd amendment cases!
So they're going to use patterns of ownership that arose as a result of their own nonfeasance to legitimate gun bans?
By this reasoning, select book bans were OK, because the banned books weren't commonly owned... being banned!
What features are we looking for in what makes a weapon common? It seems that AR-15s are common but there are only a handful of parts that distinguish an AR-15 from an M-16 which has been discussed in dicta as not being common.
That would be like saying my Ford F150 is not common because it has an aftermarket stereo.
And as you said, the only reason they are not common is because they are banned. Every single AR-15 owner would have bought an M-16 had it been legal.
It’s interesting, the common use test seems like a mirror of the evolving standards of decency test in 8th Amendment jurisprudence, if a weapon becomes popular enough or a punishment becomes unpopular enough then there’s a “lock in” (or what Scalia called a “one-way ratchet”) preventing any “innovation.”
I think the common use test is even worse because for the 8A context you at least had to have a moment in time where SCOTUS could "lock in" the current sentiment.
It seems that for the common use test, the government can lock it in. Imagine a law: "No person shall possess a firearm manufactured after July 1, 2025." The law is facially constitutional as nobody owns those guns, by definition they are not in common use and can be banned.
And they can forever remained banned for the simple fact that they are banned. But that runs right into the face of the other discussions about how the 2A is not frozen in time and protects modern arms.
Some may argue that my proposed law is invalid because the guns made on July 1 will be exactly the same as those made today. Well, they aren't. They were made later. That's one difference. In order to flesh out that issue, the Court will have to let us know what the relevant difference we are looking for in the common use test.
It seems that they settled on fully auto fire v. semi auto fire, but that is terribly underdeveloped because again it flies in the face with their statement that modern technologies are protected as well as flintlock muskets.
Like I've said, it's a mess because the Court is a mess on this topic: There isn't actually any standard that 5 of the Justices are willing to sign onto. 3 of the justices would permit anything up to an including a total ban on firearms. 1 of them wants to actually uphold the 2nd amendment.
And 5 of them are in "I know it when I see it!" territory, but don't want to publicly admit that.
Why is there asuch hostility against the 2nd Amendment?
For obvious reasons?
Jesus Christ, if you really can't see that the 2nd Amendment carries with it significant--if not extreme--costs to society, there is little hope for you...
The 2nd Amendment is a relic from another era which would obviously never be included in any modern Bill of Rights. That's why there is such hostility towards it. Most people are not serious constitutionalists (including a large proportion of those claiming to be), so they do not appreciate that part of constitutionalism is that it requires us to accept both the good and the bad--until such time as the people decide follow the process provided to change it.
It would never be included in any modern bill of rights? What's your basis for that?
The obvious reason there's such hostility towards the 2nd amendment in the government, (And judges are in the government.) is that the 2nd amendment grows out of a view of government that is fundamentally derogatory and hostile towards government.
Government as, at best, a necessary evil. Government as an institution that can not be trusted. Government as so dangerous that the people have to be armed against it, to be able in extremity to violently oppose it.
THAT is the view of government the 2nd amendment is grounded in, the view of revolutionaries who overthrew a tyrannical government, and didn't trust the one THEY were creating to not become tyrannical. It had to be tied down, limited, and the people had to be armed as a last ditch resort.
Until the early 20th century, gun control in America was always pointed at untrusted minorities. Indians, blacks, Irish, Chinese. That changed in the early 20th century, when our governing elites got tired of limited government, overthrew it and replaced it with an ever growing federal government.
And came to fear not just minorities, but the entire public.
Yeah, anybody who wants really expansive government, government that's going to regularly piss off large numbers of people, becomes concerned about those people being armed, and rationalizes disarming them. That's all that's really going on here.
Pretty much. They claim otherwise by saying "Your guns aren't going to do shit against drones, fighter jets, and tanks," but they don't really mean it. If they thought these guns were as useless as they claim, they wouldn't be going through these efforts to restrict them.
Wow, so much wrong packed in so few words. It's almost impressive how wrong you managed to be.
Ended on the right note, though:
"they do not appreciate that part of constitutionalism is that it requires us to accept both the good and the bad--until such time as the people decide follow the process provided to change it."
IOW, despite all that preceded, we're stuck with/get to keep the 2nd amendment until Article V is used to repeal it.
"Common use" is not a number and never should be a numbers test (otherwise its a back door ban on new technology which by definition has 0 owners).
"Common use" means police and military use. That is, would you be expected to show up with it ala 1792 militia act.
Oddly, that would exclude handguns. Nobody would show up for militia duty with a handgun. You would have a rifle of some type--preferably an M-16.
Heller's location of focus is off.
No-The 1792 militia Act required people to show up with *both* a pistol and a rifle. Also last I checked soldiers were in fact issued pistols as backups.
Miller should have never been heard by the Supreme court, nevertheless it did get the military use test half right.
Aledo wrote as much in his Caetano concurrence
Alito's concurrence sounds good, but the fact remains that he voted with the majority in Rahimi.
The Court's 'liberals' may be wildly wrong, but they're not squishes on the 2nd amendment, they're resolutely determined to render it moot.
On the other side, the only justice who isn't a squish is Thomas. All the rest are happy to see the amendment violated at least some of the time, they just differ among each other on where to draw the line.
That's probably why the Court isn't taking these cases: Nobody is sure how they'd come out, and they prefer the status quo, however confused, to drawing that line indelibly in a place they don't like.
Alito is very prosecution minded. He will be on our side when it comes to the "law abiding citizen" side of gun ownership, but I don't think he'll be there for the ex-felons and the domestic violence protection order types---anyone with a past.
Iirc Alito was a former prosecutor, Thomas was not. As I said above prosecutors often are averse to even large fallout from even uncommon public safety disasters.
Yeah, that's where HIS line is. Every one of the 5 has a different line.
Maybe they should just bite the bullet, and each set down on paper where their own line is and share it around, so that we can at least get the cases where there are 5 votes disposed of.
I agree with Brett here.
After Bruen I think the pro-2A side largely got cold feet. They realized that if Bruen was taken to its logical conclusion, the results would be politically untenable. That is why Rahimi made a mess of things and why Roberts & ACB have drifted away.
Yes and no. Bruen was itself internally confusing by citing things such as the sensitive places law (why weren't those outliers or easily distinguishable?) and its approval of shall issue permits---a uniquely 20th century development.
Then you had a concurrence, necessary for the majority, citing the Heller ipse dixit and proclaiming that "many" gun control laws could be upheld.
So, Bruen itself didn't mean what it said which left everyone confused.
Not any more politically untenable than Roe v Wade or Obergefel or Dobbs. The Court is perfectly willing to turn the country upside down over something they actually CARE about.
They got cold feet because only 4 of them actually care about the 2nd amendment enough to take any heat over it, and of those 4, 3 would be glad to be hated for putting an end to it, only Thomas is willing to take heat for upholding it.
I don't agree. From the Court's point of view, something that is untenable will result in the Court facing serious repercussions such as court packing or jurisdiction stripping.
Dobbs almost crossed the line, and the only reason that Democrats didn't pack the court in 2022 was because it was an election year and they couldn't guarantee vulnerable moderates would demolish what was left of the filibuster.
Bruen, while controversial, didn't immediately do that. However, it was unleashing a parade of horribles that the court got buyer's remorse over.
Sure, the Democrats would have wrecked the Constitution over Dobbs if they'd had the votes and it had come after the election. They might yet, if they get the White House and a big enough Congressional majority that they can afford a few defections.
But the justices could have seen that coming, and they did it anyway, just like they did Roe v Wade and Obergefel.
Like I said, they're perfectly willing to outrage the country if it's something they CARE about. But violations of the 2nd amendment don't upset most of them, which is why Kavanaugh was all, "We should get around to this eventually." It just doesn't viscerally offend him that the 2nd amendment is being violated, it's an intellectual game to him.
The problem was that the Bruen test was, I believe, intended to prevent resistant lower courts from claiming that strict scrutiny was satisfied in every case that came before them, so the court came up with a new test that didn't involve the traditional levels of scrutiny.
But the lower courts just changed their tactics, and used as broad enough level of generality, i.e., there was laws at the time of the founding intended to reduce crime, this law is intended to reduce crime, and therefore, it's constitutional, to uphold any law.
You read the words in the opinion, not the vibes you speculate into it.
No, Sarcastr0, it was pretty clear if you were paying attention: After Heller some of the circuits were saying they were applying strict scrutiny in gun cases, when they were actually just doing rational basis. They were treating 'strict scrutiny' like magical words they just had to recite to justify upholding a gun law.
So the Court gave them a flow chart, basically, on HOW do to strict scrutiny. That's all Bruen was, really: Telling the lower courts how "strict scrutiny" actually works.
Then, of course, most of the Bruen majority had second thoughts about actually affording 2nd amendment cases genuine strict scrutiny, but since they couldn't agree on a new test, they just pretended that they were using the Bruen test.
It's a mess because the Court is a mess: There aren't 5 votes for ANY consistent approach to the 2nd amendment. There are 3 votes to kill it, 1 vote to uphold it fully, and 5 Justices whose votes depend on how they happen to feel about a particular law, without any principled test.
I don't know of any circuit that applied strict scrutiny and then upheld the gun law or regulation.
Most of them applied intermediate scrutiny. Most of those courts said that the law didn't implicate the 2nd Amendment, but if it did, it would pass the watered-down intermediate scrutiny test that they applied.
By watered-down, it was more like rational basis: burden was placed on the plaintiffs and the governments' statements were taken at face value.
I can't recall any specific case offhand, but I remember reading some where the courts (not sure if it was circuit or district) saying that intermediate applied, and then used the not-really intermediate two-step that was rejected in Heller, but that even if strict scrutiny was the appropriate test, the law still passed muster.
The courts, in their open rebellion, were trying to make it such that, if a court above them held that strict scrutiny should be applied, that they could claim they already applied it.
I can't think of any that used strict scrutiny as a fallback. Can you find any?
Vibes are oftentimes accompanied by ‘obviously’ or ‘if you were paying attention.’
Stupid or dishonest? It is a tough question.
The 9th Circuit has never let a decision favorable to gun rights stand. They may have nibbled around the edges on a couple, but they have upheld at least the major part of every gun control law that they have considered. For you to ignore that to make your comments about vibes makes me ask the question at the beginning of my comment.
The 9th Circuit has never let a decision favorable to gun rights stand
Maybe, maybe not! Certainly you come with no proof, just vibes.
Could be! But feeling something is true strongly enough to just assert it does not count.
I'm a stickler because I have that temptation myself, and fall for it more than I'd like.
But man this is just a festival of speculation and storytelling to one another. About history, about the Justice's secret motives, about the Real Constitution.
None of it connected to realty, just passion and speculation.
This wouldn't have worked if the Court had actually objected to them doing it. The Court could have just handed out summary reversals like party favors, and put a stop to it.
As Rahimi demonstrated, the majority on the Court were, themselves, perfectly comfortable with that sort of sophistry, so they were hardly going to be offended by the lower courts engaging in it.
While Bruen was written in a very absolute and principled way, most of the Bruen majority had no interest in striking down gun laws generally, they just want to police the margins, prevent real outlier jurisdictions from going nuts.
Do you have a cite? Nothing in the 1792 act required pistols and AFAIK no infantry man carries them.
They aren't the preferred weapon for a militia type situation. You carry a pistol in case something happens. When you know something is about to happen, you carry a rifle.
That Militia act
The requirement for pistols only applied to the officers:
"The commissioned officers to furnish themselves with good horses of at least fourteen hands and an half high, and to be armed with a sword and pair of pistols, the holsters of which to be covered with bearskin caps. Each dragoon to furnish himself with a serviceable horse, at least fourteen hands and an half high, a good saddle, bridle, mailpillion and valise, holsters, and a breast-plate and crupper, a pair of boots and spurs, a pair of pistols, a sabre, and a cartouch-box, to contain twelve cartridges for pistols."
I said both but I hadn't read it in a while. it says either:
"That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack."
https://www.mountvernon.org/education/primary-source-collections/primary-source-collections/article/militia-act-of-1792
Also, is that this is already a settled question? (go back and read Caetano v Mass 2016). The court mostly could strike any gun ban just by citing Heller.
Rifles were impractical for cavalry, although dragoons carried carbines because they were expected to mostly fight dismounted.
But horse pistols and sabers were the primary weapons for cavalry. And their were definitely cavalry militia units around the founding.
The only problem with that definition is that it's one you made up in your head. In Heller, Scalia wrote that early militias were formed by people bringing weapons in common use, and that 2A doesn't protect "those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns." You've scrambled that up in your head to reach a frankly unhinged result.
Yeah, and that's the problem Scalia never addressed: That the very pattern of what was typically possessed was a product of the very laws whose constitutionality they were supposed to be examining!
So the result was circular reasoning: If you'd already banned it, it would not be common, so it was OK to ban it.
He was just trying to grandfather in a bunch of gun control laws that were adopted during the period when the Court was refusing 2nd amendment cases, without allowing gun control to advance any further. Not a very principled thing to do, but Scalia never was very principled.
Exactly. It's also stupid. The whole argument against short barreled rifles and shotguns is that they're easier for criminals to conceal under a coat. But what weapon is easier to conceal than a handgun.
Why would a criminal choose a sawed off shotgun over a Glock 17 which he can easily hide in a coat? The law dates back to a time before pistols were as good as they are today.
I believe it was California that used that argument to justify one of their gun bans. And it prevailed (I think in the state's supreme court).
Scalia was handcuffed by Miller which is where the common use standard came from.
It was very important for its.legitimacy that Heller not be seen as reversing or ignoring Supreme Court precedent. Heller extended Miller to also encompass self defense, but left intact Miller's 'common use', 'dangerous and unusual', and 'suitable for the militia' standards. Heller was going to be criticised and resisted enough without throwing a reversal of the last major 2nd amendment case into the debate.
Obviously not very effective handcuffs, since he reversed the reasoning of Miller.
Per Miller, militia members were supposed to show up with firearms that were commonly owned, (They couldn't afford to have a separate set of firearms just for militia use!) which is why the firearms that were commonly owned needed to be suitable for militia purposes.
Remember, the holding of Miller was that Miller's sawn off shotgun wasn't protected by the 2nd amendment because it WASN'T suitable for military use! In order to have 2nd amendment protection is was supposed to be useable for military purposes, according to the Miller Court.
Scalia flipped that around to contrasting military arms with commonly owned civilian arms, ignoring the fact that until the NFA THERE WAS NO SUCH DISTINCTION. Civilians could, and commonly did, own firearms that were functionally indistinguishable from those being used by the military!
After reading Scalia's opinion in Heller I really lost all respect for him.
Scalia also said that the 2A protected an individual right that was unconnected with militia service. So, even assuming he was correct, why did he turn around and condition the type of arm that was protected on its historical use for militia service?
That's not actually stupid. The 2nd amendment protects the militia by guaranteeing a right of the people, NOT the militia, to be armed suitably for militia service. If it had just protected the right for people actually in militia service, the government could stop the militia system, and ban guns generally, making it impossible to raise a militia in an emergency.
But by protecting everybody's right to keep and bear militia arms, you guarantee a militia can be raised in an emergency even if the government doesn't want raising one to be possible. A bill of rights is always premised on the idea that the government might want to do the wrong thing, and has to be blocked from doing it.
Where Scalia went wrong was that, after noting that HAVING the right wasn't connected to militia service, he stood Miller on its head by declaring that it wasn't a right to military arms, when Miller had held instead that it was only a right to military arms.
Stevens set out to kill the right, Scalia was content to neuter it...
That's a solid opinion, but not one Scalia wrote. He specifically said that the RKBA was an individual right, one for personal self defense, and untethered from one's membership in a militia. If that is the case, which I believe it is, then the TYPE of arm you own could be one tethered to personal self defense and unconnected with whether I join a militia.
Obviously it would at LEAST protect militia arms, but with Scalia's opinion it simply had to protect more than that.
How about this. If you go to a gun store and ask for advice on purchasing a weapon, you are going to get different answers if your purpose is: 1) home defense, 2) hunting, 3) carry defense, and 4) becoming part of a weekend militia. Different gun recommendations for each.
But if the 2A protects all four, why should someone be limited to the arms suitable for #4 only? And even then, some of those arms, like the M-16, perfectly suited for #4, cannot be had in any event.
It is internally inconsistent.
"and untethered from one's membership in a militia."
Which it is, deliberately. The right is the right of the People, not the Militia, because otherwise you could make it go away by just not having a militia.
"Where Scalia went wrong was that, after noting that HAVING the right wasn't connected to militia service, he stood Miller on its head by declaring that it wasn't a right to military arms, when Miller had held instead that it was only a right to military arms."
Compromises had to be made so that Roberts and Kennedy would sign it. Roberts is almost as anti gun as Kagan. Hes not going to allow NFA to be implicated.
Roberts has no philosophy at all. At the time he was nominated to Chief Justice, he was only 2 years out of a partner role at Hogan & Hartson. No one knew what his real philosophy was, and GWB didn't care. He's like the pathetic simp who wants everyone to like him, but instead, rules in such a way that everyone hates him. The left will never forgive him for overturning Roe, so anything he does to support the left's causes on anything else will be overshadowed by that.
Barrett and Kavanagh are way more inexcusable, given what happened.
The NFA wasn't at issue in Heller. Mr. Heller wanted to keep a .22 revolver in his D.C. apartment.
The Court should not have addressed the NFA argument at all until it got a case with full briefing and argument on that issue by a party with standing.
NFA was definitely in the back of everyone's minds.
The Solicitor General's purpose for intervening in oral arguments was to preserve the ban on machine guns, and Clement even threw down the gauntlet at one point.
Pistols were nearly included in the National Firearms Act until the last minute.
Miller was wrong about short barreled shotguns, they were in use. This was an offhanded observation by the court, and wrong. The case would have been dismissed by todays standards.
Let's be fair here: it's not the duty of the Supreme Court to conduct fact-finding. That's the responsibility of the district court.
What happened was that when Miller landed at SCOTUS, the Court didn't have any information in the court's record as to whether SBS's were used by the militia, so SCOTUS could not make a decision one way or the other (emphasis mine):
In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.
...
We are unable to accept the conclusion of the court below, and the challenged judgment must be reversed. The cause will be remanded for further proceedings.
SCOTUS sent the case back down to the district court where the defendants would have to show that SBS's were militia equipment. The defendants jumped bail and were later killed before they could present evidence that trench guns were used in WW1.
For a Supreme Court case where the party making the pro-gun argument didn't even show up to argue its position, it's a miracle that we even that ruling. It could have been worse!
Unfortunately, what some took out of Miller was that guns only had militia purposes and therefore no one had a right to own anything whatsoever. That's the point where a bunch of circuit courts that decided that guns were icky: Cases and Tot were some of the notorious cases where the appellate courts tried to lock Americans out of being able to exercise their right to keep and bear arms.
The Court actually DID know that short barreled shotguns had seen use in WWI; A couple of the Justices had military experience. But they lacked judicial notice.
This let them find for the government on the narrowest grounds possible. They WERE going to find for the government, after all: This was after the Court had caved to FDR, and was temporarily out of the business of telling the federal government it lacked the power to do things it wanted to do.
I don't agree that the Court in Miller was a rubber stamp for FDR. If they had, they would have been far more conclusive in their phrasing.
(Ironically, the next time it told the government it couldn't do something was in 1943 when Tot went up to SCOTUS. The Court struck down several provisions of the Federal Firearms Act).
If court the court caved in Miller. The plaitiff was dead! The case should have been mooted and dismissed, and would have been under modern rules.
That is a very good point.
Why did thety decide the merits instead of mooting the case?
Because it was a setup from the beginning, a carefully constructed test case.
THE PECULIAR STORY OF
UNITED STATES V. MILLER
I read that a while ago but I forgot what it was called. Thanks, I'll bookmark it.
It wasn't dismissed as moot because it wasn't moot... not even under the rules of today.
There were actually two defendants in the case: Miller and Layton. Miller died before the court issued its opinion, but Layton lived and instead he reached a plea deal with the prosecutor and the case ended.
It was a criminal case, not a civil case.
Miller was a defendant, not the plaintiff.
There were actually two defendants that were being tried together: Miller and Layton (the full case name is "United States v Miller et al.")
Miller did indeed die before the Court handed down it's decision. Layton survived but elected to take a plea deal instead of fighting further.
It was still a trial in abstentia, because they both went on the lam when the lower court released them. Which is why they weren't represented before the Court, only the government was.
"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument."
The unstated assumption in the holding is that an arm is not protected unless there is a "reasonable relationship" between that arm and a militia purpose.
Heller STARTS by rather explicitly overruling this holding. The 2A applies to personal self defense unconnected with militia service. Miller seems to be dead.
But like a movie villain, Scalia brings it back to life with the "in common use" test and citing Miller as the standard by which to judge the suitability of an arm.
He then flubs that test by ruling that a clearly suitable militia weapon like the M-16 does not qualify.
So what controls? Who knows? But it is not Miller. Full auto weapons clearly satisfy the Miller test but not Heller---a decision which claims to apply Miller.
Confused? So is everyone.
Re: the nuclear warhead thing -- Where does the 2A community stand on civilian possession of things like grenades and Claymore mines? (Honest question, no agenda.)
I'm probably an outlier on this but if the military has it, so can you. If you want to have a thermonuclear warhead and have the hundreds of billions of dollars necessary to invest in a weapons development program, the land to conduct tests, and manage to avoid the various foreign military strikes (much like Iran today) to develop a viable weapon, be my guest. Somehow I don't think you'll get there.
In all seriousness if in the upcoming years outer space industrial applications like moon and asteroid mining become common they are going to be needed in private hands regardless.
I won't speak for anyone else, but for myself, the test is whether something is "arms" or "ordnance." What should be protected is the type of weapon that a soldier would grab and arm himself with when reporting for militia duty.
Yeah, the specific intent was that everybody have the right to arm themselves suitably for militia duty, as infantry. Owning things like cannon was more of a 9th amendment right.
I agree with this interpretation as well. The 2nd Amendment likely wasn't about ensuring the right of the people to create private military forces any more than it was about hunting.
I can't subscribe to that. Rights are Inherent. Repealing an amendment does not take the Right away since they exist independent of and predating the government that recognized them; it only makes the government that did it a Tyrrany, necessitating its removal and abolition.
Rights aren't subject to a popular or democratic vote.
Well, if God said so...
Although I am a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment, I acknowledge that the people also have the right to repeal it.
If the Court were to define it in such a way as to make it wholly incompatible with modern society, I fully expect it would be summarily repealed--using the process provided in the Constitution.
Yeah, IF the Court decided it was a literal right to own nuclear weapons, sure.
If they just struck down the NFA, I rather doubt it.
It's all academic anyway, only 4% of New York "Assault Weapon" owners registered them in 2015, i.e. 96% didn't, and that's in a "Blue" State
"But what has SCOTUS done, in total?"
It recognized an individual right to keep and bear arms, both at home and in public places. The person referenced also is not just concerned about SCOTUS but also the lower courts.
The lower courts have repeatedly protected 2A rights in many cases in recent years. The develop of the 2A in about 15 years is significant especially as compared to the slow decades' long development (and often disfavored treatment) of other rights.
As I noted, the Cruel and Unusual Punishment Clause is particularly disfavored these days. After Kennedy left the Court, the last chance of a majority except in stray cases (like Glossip) in even death penalty cases (except perhaps if it involves religious liberty) was gone. And, for decades, non-capital case wins (with the exception of minors) also were quite hard to come by.
If you're claiming that the lower courts have repeatedly protected 2A rights in recent years, you're either lying or ignorant.
I had never understood why opponents of Open Carry, like Stephen Halbrook, are fixated on legalizing "assault" rifles. After all, they insist that we do not have the right to openly carry any arms in public.
For them, the Second Amendment protects a non-existent right to "secret advantage and unmanly assassination." That's "murder" for those of you who never read or understood District of Columbia v. Heller.
It then occurred to me that Halbrook and his kind view AR-15s the same way they view concealed handguns. They view them as murder machines.
"Murder Machines"??
Like Ted Kennedy's Oldsmobile Delta 88?
Dude, you need to give it a rest. And I'm saying that as an ardent gun-rights supporter.
I think open carry should be legal, full stop. I also think open carry is generally a bad idea, especially in urban areas. Watch any of the youtube videos of people getting their guns taken in public for evidence.
The only time I think it both tactically makes sense is when hiking in remote areas.
In cities, you want the element of surprise on your side.
Poxigah146, you literally proclaimed to the world that you are a coward who seeks "secret advantage and unmanly assassination" by carrying a concealed weapon. A difference between you and Ted Nugent is that pillow-biter doesn't hide his identity.
FFS...take your damned meds.
So in Colorado you can just buy Gasoline with no background check?
I agree with Halbrook and Blackman that the court should have taken up this case. The reason: the court should use this case to overrule the atrocious Bruen decision, which implicitly overruled Scalia's Heller decision by eviscerating the second half of that decision regarding reasonable regulations. Ideally the court would overrule Heller in its entirety and return meaning to the first half of the 2nd amendment, but that would require, to quote Professor Blackman, some real "judicial courage."