The Volokh Conspiracy
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"One can have different views about the definition of genocide, but one may not use definitional disputes to deny genocide."
The Lemkin Institute for the Prevention of Genocide provides a stunning example of Orwellian Doublespeak
In a tweet last year (that I just came across), the Lemkin Institute for the Prevention of Genocide, long captured by the far left, writes: "The Lemkin Institute has had it with the cynical lies and propaganda from Israel and the USA. One can have different views about the definition of genocide, but one may not use definitional disputes to deny genocide."
Where to begin? If Party A and Party B are arguing over whether Israel is committing genocide, and Party A says, "genocide requires an intent to wipe out a large percentage of a civilian population defined by race, ethnicity, or religion, and action in accordance with that attempt, and that does not describe Israeli action in Gaza," and Party B says, "Israel is committing genocide because I believe that it has a long-term plan to dispossess and expel all Palestinians, and the Gaza War is consistent with that plan," *of course* the definitional dispute should be used by Party A to deny there is a genocide (and Party A could add that just because Party B believes something, doesn't make it true!)
Let's try out the Institute's perspective in a murder case. Defense lawyers: "Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the definition of murder in this state requires both malice aforethought by the accused, and action resulting in the death of the victim. However, my client had no such malice, and the victim is still alive." Lemkin: "Objection, we don't think murder requires either malice aforethought or death, and one may not use definitional disputes to deny murder."
How about a rape case?: "In New California, the statutory definition of rape states there must be a lack of consent to sexual contact, and that contact must involve penetration of a bodily orifice. My client had both written and verbal consent to initiate sexual contact with the accuser and she has acknowledged to this court that there was no penetration of any orifice." Lemkin: "Objection, we believe that rape is solely a matter of the intentions of the accused, and one may not use definitional dispute to deny rape."
What Lemkin really seems to be saying is that if they want to accuse Israel of genocide because it suits their propaganda interests, how dare anyone object! Indeed, they pretty much say so: "Let us be clear: Israel is committing genocide in Gaza." How do we know? "These are not political statements. They are statements that are made from knowledge and experience." Oh, well, that settles it.
Wait, there is more: "Nevertheless, you do not need a PhD, a law degree, or X-ray vision to see the genocidal dimensions of Israel's carnage in Gaza." No, but you do need an accurate definition of genocide.
"It is clear in the behavior of the state and its military, on full display in yesterday's horrific bombardment of a Rafah camp." This is a great example of saying something is clear to obscure the fact that it's not only far from clear, you don't have any evidence at all. As far bombardment of enemy territory, that's pretty much what happens in a war, and war, as such ,is not genocide.
Lemkin's social media people seem to be of the mindset of those who think if you say something with enough vigor, emotion, and anger, it means that people should believe you. But you know what you need to support a charge of genocide? First, you need an accurate definition of genocide. Then, you need evidence that the behavior of the state actor in question meets that definition. And if your definition of genocide is wrong in the first instance, than of course one can use that "definitional dispute" to deny there is genocide.
If it weren't for the serious consequences of blood libel, I'd feel embarrassed for them.
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Continuing on your journey to find old news to enrage yourself about in public I see.
You seem to be more successful at being enraged for no reason than Bernstein.
Enraged? More like elated! I love talking about how Israel is committing genocide. I should thank David for bringing it up, now that you mention it. We wouldn't want people to forget about this ongoing genocide what with all the other things going on in the world. Thanks prof!
If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians, they would have done it long ago...
I hope you can find it your heart to forgive them.
Forgive who? The statement is that they could have but didn't. How do you forgive someone for something they chose to not do? And why would you want to?
If it weren't for the serious consequences of blood libel, I'd feel embarrassed for them.
Wait, what? Where did that come from all of a sudden?
From now on, double-parking is genocide. Anyone who double parks is subject to arrest by the ICC.
Well, not if there's a car bomb and it's parked outside a synagogue.
Another good example is the phrase "refugee camp" - where the majority of residents (as indeed, the vast majority of Palestinians) are not refugees except by the intentionally altered UN definition. and the camps are permanent buildings and infrastructure that bear no relation either to Nazi or Soviet camps, or tented encampments. They're townships.
Ugg. This is not blood libel, which is the antisemitic lie that Jews use the blood of (someone else) to make their bread. To use that term in this context cheapens it.
Why isn't the Lemkin Institute for the Prevention of Genocide speaking out against the on-going Yazidi genocide?
It's curious to me that you didn't even bother to include a proper definition of the word "genocide" for Party A in your hypothetical, David. Was that just a lazy oversight, or did you realize that invoking the definition relied upon for purposes of international law would be too easily satisfied by Israel's actions over the past year or so, which might undermine your shitpost?
Well, his point didn't hinge on WHAT the definition of "genocide" was, after all. Just that it has to HAVE one, or what's the point of the word?
No one asked you for your idiotic overlay, Goobs.
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide
If Israel is trying to destroy the Palestinian ethnic group, then this is the least effective genocide ever.
Margrave reports: worst genocide ever!
The numbers of dead exceed the campaign against the Rohingya in Myanmar. That country's campaign against the Rohingya is broadly characterized as "genocide."
The primary legal distinction that trolls like David (usually) make is that Israel is killing, injuring, and displacing the Palestinians in Gaza only incidentally to its oft-claimed primary purpose, which is the destruction of Hamas. That comes as small comfort to the victims. David, of course, goes further, claiming that genocide requires intentionally killing a large percentage of people, so as to give Israel broad license. "Get back to me when it's closer to 200k dead," perhaps.
Given that it’s your position that the United States engaged in the genocide of the German people in WWII, what reparations do you propose the United States pay for this genocide? What reparations should they pay for their genocide of the Confederates? Etc.
Also, what do you personally do to celebrate the Tulsa Liberation of 1921, when the heroes of the KKK (as you no doubt regard them) rose up to resist the genocide the Negros were committing against the indigenous people of the 5 Nations of Oklahoma?
You people really are scum.
As the civilian toll in Gaza comes into greater focus, you will look like true monsters, chortling to yourselves over year-old tweets and strawmanning in defense of Israel's indiscriminate military campaign.
I have no problem acknowledging the several crimes against humanity that the US has engaged in, or in characterizing at least some of them as genuinely genocidal. If there needs to be reparations, that's also something I'm open to acknowledging. I don't know why you seem to think that holding US accountable for its actions during WWII is self-evidently absurd. It really just demonstrates your inability to think clearly.
Exactly. Of course we look like monsters, scum to you. We look like monsters, scum to you in exactly the same way we looked like monsters, scum to the Nazis, and in exactly the same way black people looked like monsters, scum to the Confederates and Jim Crow people. Exactly. Exactly the same way.
You aren’t doing anything new by calling us monsters, scum. But this time, unlike the Jews under the Nazis and black people under slavery and Jim Crow, we have guns. And if you in your righteous morality try to do to us monsters, scum what the Nazis in their righteous morality did to us or what the Confederates and Jim Crow people in their righteous morality did to black people, we will shoot your righteous, moral ass.
And No. No matter how righteously and morally you whine, we won’t feel the slightest bit ashamed or guilty at how horribly we’ve oppressed you by dong so.
No, you look like monsters & scum in exactly the same way that the Nazis looked like monsters & scum and the Confederates and Jim Crow people looked like monsters & scum. Exactly. Exactly the same way.
The Palestinians look like monsters & scum to you in exactly the same way that we (not you, we) looked like monsters & scum to the Nazis and in exactly the same way that black people looked like monsters & scum to the Confederates and Jim Crow people. Exactly. Exactly the same way.
"Ha ha, we have the power and we have the guns, and we're actively supporting the actual slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinians, but actually in this scenario we're the equivalent of the Jews suffering under Nazi rule in Germany."
You try to portray yourselves as the hero in some kind of fortuitous turn of historical events. But in fact, you're just repeating history, right down to the nauseating way in which the mass murderers described themselves as the heroes in the story.
The primary legal distinction appears right up front in the convention's definition :
any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Thus the numbers of dead, the extent of destruction etc are irrelevant unless and until you can demonstrate the intent to destroy the Gazans / Palestinians / Arabs in whole or in part, AS SUCH.
So you have to believe (and then show) that the Israeli actions are intended to kill Palestinians qua Palestinians, as opposed to Palestinians qua Hamas. Good luck with that.
I understand how legal rules and principles work. Indeed, I expressly addressed the legal distinction that mass-murder enthusiasts often draw, when trying to make the case that Israel hasn't engaged in a literally genocidal campaign in Gaza.
The distinction is without a difference, in my view. That Israel has not provably acted with the requisite mens rea to have engaged in actual "genocide" does not change that Israel is intentionally killing thousands of Palestinian civilians, with a view towards clearing at least some of the territory for annexation or "security buffer" purposes. It's like arguing that someone hasn't engaged in "treason," despite selling military secrets to an adversary we're at open war with, because you can't find a second witness to the act. It's a legally relevant distinction that is substantively meaningless.
It seems to make a pretty darn big difference to Israel's haters, who feel it quite important to use the term.
It's not like that, because that's an evidentiary rule, not a substantive definition of the underlying offense. One can commit treason even w/o 2 witnesses; one just can't be convicted for it.
Chip, I appreciate that you are intentionally reading my comments as making a legal argument, where these kinds of distinctions between a mens rea requirement and an evidentiary rule are meaningful, because it helps you drive your point that Israel hasn't engaged in a "genocide," as such. But I think I've been clear that my argument isn't legal; I acknowledge the technical/practical problem with proving that Israel has acted with the requisite intent within the precise meaning of the law. l am speaking, rather, at the level where one is capable of seeing a massive crime against humanity and ascribing appropriate labels to it.
Treason is treason, as you say, regardless of whether one can convict a person of it. Similarly, genocide is genocide, regardless of whether you can establish beyond a reasonable doubt that a state acted with the requisite intent. (Setting aside for now the record of genocidal statements by Israeli officials, which ICJ relied upon in its preliminary rulings on the question.)
Definitions are tough things, aren't they, SimonP?
Suck a dick!
I mean, you're pretending to have a lot more precise knowledge than you actually do.
That is indeed what genocide requires. Killing a small percentage of people would not be an attempt to destroy the group. The Holocaust killed ⅔ of European Jews. The Cambodian genocide killed an estimated 25% of Cambodians. The Rwandan genocide is estimated to have killed half or more of Rwanda Tutsis. Ditto for the Armenian genocide (well, Armenians, not Tutsis). (All figures, of course, are estimates. )
Moreover, your "small comfort to the victims" is pathetic as a non-argument. If your kid gets killed by a drunk driver, the fact that it wasn't intentional would be small comfort to you — but your lack of comfort would not make it intentional homicide.
Chip, Margrave helpfully provided the accepted definition of "genocide" for purposes of international law. You're welcome to review that definition, refresh on the numbers for the Rohingya "genocide", read up on current analyses arguing that Palestinian deaths in Gaza to date are likely too be significantly undercounted (for reasons that have been evident for months), and review the findings of the ICJ on the matter.
Once you've done that, you can come back and attempt to have an adult conversation. Until then, I don't care to engage with your bad faith.
"in whole or in part"
You're misrepresenting that.
"In part" does not mean "Well, one person is 'part' of the population, so therefore actually killing one person is genocide." The purpose of the "in part" provision is to capture the fact that a population may be divided. For example, the Holocaust was only an attempt to wipe out Jews "in part" — that is, European Jewry. If Israel were actually trying to murder the population of Gaza, it could not use as its defense, "Well, there are a lot of Palestinians elsewhere in the world that we're not trying to kill, so therefore what we're doing can't be genocide."
True, but in Bosnia v. Serbia and Montenegro the ICJ found that Srebrenica was genocide even though the Bosniaks in Srebrenica (and the Bosniaks who were killed) represented only a very small part of the totality of Bosniaks, and not even a particularly distinct group.
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/91/judgments
In the Vukovar case (Croatia v. Serbia) on the other hand, the ICJ found that intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a group was not proved.
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/118
What does the Lemkin Institute say about what Negros did in Oklahoma after the Civiil War? Does it characterize it as genoicide?
What about the deliberate destruction of Southern culture as a supposedly “evil” culture, even to the point of destruction of Confederate war memorials. Does it characterize it as genoicide?
If the Lemkin Institute maintains a consistent definition of genocide, one that covers this, no problem.
What about the deliberate destruction of Southern culture as a supposedly “evil” culture, even to the point of destruction of Confederate war memorials.
Well, as slavery is an acknowledged evil, and the Confederacy's peculiar institution, by definition of "peculiar", cannot be separated from the Confederacy, the Confederacy was evil. There is at least some overlap between Southern culture and the Confederacy.
And for the first 100 years of the Civil War, Confederate war memorials were being erected, not destroyed.
Was it?
Before the founding of the state of Israel, Jews throughout the Arab world, including in Ottoman Palestine, lived under very Jim Crow-like conditions. They had to live under apartheid in segregated areas, they were barred from owning land and entering many professions in many countries, they had to step aside when a Moslem passed them on the sidewalk, children could throw stones at them with impunity. They were in every way lesser beings.
Yet nobody considers this to be evil. Palestinians, like the Confederates, say Jews were very happy to be living like this, and everybody believes them. They say the destruction of this system by Zionists is a form of genoicide, and everybody believes them.
The Confederates said EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS. They say that Negros were as happy under their regime as the Palestians say the Jews were happy under theirs. Why shouldn’t we believe them? They say that giving Negros rights and letting them illegally occupy white land, even places of sanctuary like schools and restaurants, even owning land and building homes in white territory, was an act of deliberate genocide against their culture and way of life, just like what the Palestinians say about those upity and savage Jews who weren’t happy living in ghettos on the edge of town and working (in many places) only as laborers.
Nobody regards the Palestinians as evil for seeing things this way. Why should anybody think differently about Confederates for having identical opinions about Negros?
Read any KKK literature and you’ll find horrible tales of oppression, savagery, and butchery during the Negro Rule period of Reconstruction, when Confederates were mostly disenfranchised and governments were largely black people and Yankee imports and sympathizers, propped by a horribly atrocious army of occupation full of tales of butchery, savagery, land theft, murder, and rape.
The accounts of illegal military occupation, settler-colonialist governments propped up by foreign colonial powers, a proud romantic traditional society degraded by tawdry materialistic modernity, etc. etc. etc., savagery and butchery, confiscation and theft, are all so similar, such a close parallel, it’s almost as if these folks took American KKK literature, scratched out terms like “Negro” and “Negro Rule,” wrote in terms like “Zionist,” and then changed the place names.
And that’s not even getting at the Asa Earl Carter angle. After the 5 nations of Oklahoma, who had allied with the Confederates, were defeated, the United States took millions of acres of their land and offered it to ex-slaves willing to settle there, who became backbones of new towns like Tulsa. From not just the ex-Confederates but their Native American allies’ point of view, these were thieves living and getting rich off stolen native land, and driving them away violently was an act of liberation.
We accept the Palestinian’s views on this without question. The fact that Jews were leaving the Holocaust has nothing to do with their status as evil settler-colonialists. Why should the fact that Negros were leaving slavery, and moreover couldn’t even claim any historical ties to Oklahoma as Jews can with Israel, make Negros any less evil or the Confederate resistant to their genocide any less heroic an act of liberation than is the case for Palestinians?
Before the founding of the state of Israel, Jews throughout the Arab world, including in Ottoman Palestine, lived under very Jim Crow-like conditions.
Yup. In a FB post which I think I reposted here, I described Jewish life in ME as 1,000 years of Jim Crow.
If you've not read it, I recommend Martin Gilbert's "In Ishmael's House".
George Orwell, in his essay Marrakach, gives an excellent description of what it was really like, one that would shock people on the progressive left.
https://www.george-orwell.org/Marrakech/0.html
Yet nobody considers this to be evil. Palestinians, like the Confederates, say Jews were very happy to be living like this, and everybody believes them. They say the destruction of this system by Zionists is a form of genoicide, and everybody believes them.
What a bizarre strawman you've constructed!
While at the same time, Israel is actually saying how great the Palestinians have it under their jackboot.
Why should the fact that Negros were leaving slavery, and moreover couldn’t even claim any historical ties to Oklahoma as Jews can with Israel, make Negros any less evil or the Confederate resistant to their genocide any less heroic an act of liberation than is the case for Palestinians?
I suppose this question deserves an answer.
You described the confederates as disenfranchised and under occupation. They may have described themselves that way, but they weren't. They were US citizens who could vote.
The Indians of Oklahoma were treated pretty rotten. You really want to compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to the United States' treatment of Indians? Ok, I agree, they're comparable.
Still, though, at least the Indians got citizenship and the vote in 1924.
I realize that a handful of Palestinians are citizens of Israel. But the vast majority have been kept under actual Israeli occupation for over 50 years. That's the difference. That's what makes Israel uniquely evil.
Israel conquered Palestine fair and square. Let's stipulate to that. So then... why not do what every other conquering power does and just say "You're all Israelis now!" Because Israel doesn't want Palestinian citizens. They would dilute -- and actually overwhelm, given the numbers -- the Jewish character of Israel.
So they're stuck in this permanent subjugation instead. Israel has decided to keep Palestinians as a captive underclass within the occupied territories, essentially forever. Now that's evil.
I realize that a handful of Palestinians are citizens of Israel.
Not true. There are 1.8 million Palestinians who are citizens. That's hardly a handful.
It's a low percentage, is the point. Not enough to have any political power. And that's what keeps Israel from simply annexing Palestine.
That's an exceedingly odd reading of the tweet. It does not say that there is no need for a definition of genocide, it says that it is illegitimate to point at the existence of a "penumbra of doubt" (that every legal concept inevitably has) to detract from the fact that the core of the definition applies.
So to run with your example:
"Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the definition of murder in this state requires both malice aforethought by the accused, and action resulting in the death of the victim. However, what does "action resulting in the death of somebody" even mean? Philosophers have debated the nature of causality for millennia. The famous philosopher David Hume, a father of the enlightenment, and whose work influenced the common law significantly, denied that there is really such a thing. Today, modern physics confirms that on the quantum level, causality breaks down. When even noted experts disagree on the meaning of the term, there is no way that we can know if my client's actions caused the death of the victim"
I mean good luck with that strategy... You can of course disagree that what Israel does falls clearly under the core meaning of genocide, but that is a different issue entirely from what the Institute says here
The tweet argues, (More like angrily asserts.) that it's improper to appeal to a definition of "genocide" to deny that Israel is perpetrating one.
Now, I know that they're really insisting that what Israel is doing is obviously genocide by any definition, so that appealing to definitions doesn't get you anywhere. That's not actually any better.
We all know what Israel is doing. It doesn't matter what you call it.
Genocide is firing rockets into Israeli civilian settlements.
And the response is to DESTROY who would DESTROY me.
It is horrible but Biden made it many times worse than it had to be. But it is now at this point, where Israel destroys the destroyer.
It is very well possible that both sides are guilty of genocide, that's true. My sense is that the case is almost certainly stronger for Hamas.