The Volokh Conspiracy
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Address Border Chaos by Making Legal Migration Easier
Cato Institute immigration analyst Alex Nowrasteh has an excellent piece on this subject.

Since the election, a conventional wisdom has emerged to the effect that Democrats lost in large part because Joe Biden adopted lax border policies, which led to voter backlash against an influx of immigration, and therefore that tougher immigration restrictions are the road to political success. In an insightful recent piece, my Cato Institute colleague Alex Nowrasteh pushes back on some key parts of this narrative.
As Alex points out, Biden in fact did adopt numerous restrictive border policies, including continuing draconian Title 42 expulsions under bogus "public health" pretexts until May 2023, Trump-lite asylum restrictions, and more:
[David] Leonhardt ignores Biden's numerous actions on the border, from maintaining Title 42, reinstating Remain in Mexico, curtailing asylum, boosting deportations and removals over the level of Trump, and over 100 other actions to shut illegal immigration. Leonhardt blames Biden's campaign statements that imply immigrants should come to the United States. Still, Leonhardt ignores his numerous statements to the contrary since the election – such as in March 2021 when he said, "I can say quite clearly: Don't come."
President Biden even sent his VP and eventual Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris to Central America to repeat the message "Do not come" in 2021 – a tour that primarily highlighted the administration's inability to stop illegal immigration. Leonhardt has no explanation for why Biden's words mattered when they seemed to encourage illegal immigration, and they didn't matter when he sought to more clearly and forcefully persuade people not to come.
As Alex explains, these policies could not prevent extensive illegal border-crossing, because the latter was primarily dictated by strong US labor-market demand, and horrific oppression and economic conditions in many of the migrants' countries of origin. Indeed, restrictive policies making legal entry difficult or impossible for most would-be migrants predictably exacerbated the illegal kind. That, in turn led to the kind of disorder and chaos at the border that angers many voters, and make it politically difficult to expand opportunities for legal migration, even though the latter are the best way to prevent the chaos voters dislike.
As Alex puts it:
Border chaos is an ally of ideological immigration restrictionists like Stephen Miller, who use it to support restrictions on legal immigration. Reducing legal immigration was the greatest achievement of the Trump administration's immigration policy from Miller's perspective, and it will be again. The president has control over legal immigration; he doesn't have nearly so much power over illegal immigration…..
This is the Catch-22 of expanding legal immigration. Border chaos is caused by restrictive US immigration laws that make legal immigration impossible for most, but border chaos prevents liberalization because voters are understandably repelled by disorder. More enforcement reduces illegal immigration, but only temporarily and at high costs. With the economic benefits of migration as high as they are, it's truly incredible that the government is able to reduce immigration as much as it currently is able to, but it will always look like an utter failure.
In cases where Biden did make legal entry easier, as with the creation of the CHNV program for migrants from four Latin America nations, illegal entries from those countries declined greatly. Unfortunately, as David Bier and I explained in a 2023 article, arbitrary numerical caps and the limitation of this program to only four countries severely limited its effects.
For what it's worth, Alex, David Bier, and I have long argued that disorder at the border strengthens restrictionist sentiment, and that increasing legal migration opportunities is both good in itself, and a valuable strategy for reducing chaos and disorder. As Alex likes to put it, we need to "make immigration policy boring." His new article includes a useful thought experiment illustrating this point:
Imagine the 2024 election without the over 7.2 million border encounters during Biden's administration. Imagine a lack of shocking videos of thousands of migrants streaming across the Rio Grande, rushing Border Patrol agents, or turning themselves in to law enforcement in the desert. There are no images of barbed wire, fortifications that look like they're being stormed, soldiers, tear gas, or smugglers dropping children off on the US side of the river.
Imagine, instead, 7.2 million more legal immigrants and temporary migrant workers flying into the US on lawful visas to live, work, and start businesses during Biden's administration (encounters and individuals aren't the same, but work with me). They mostly came from a dozen Latin American countries and arrived in hundreds of locations across the US as families or as individual workers. No dramatic bussing by Texas' governor, no mass chaos at the border. Just millions of more people orderly entering through a legal immigration system simplified and expanded by Congress and an administration seeking more order and legal immigration.
No reporters would be making their careers filming border chaos because there wouldn't be much to film. Calls to build a wall would sound like fanciful calls to build a giant space laser to ward off space aliens. Immigration would have dropped from a top-tier issue to third or fourth-tier – at best.
The Democrats might still have lost the election thanks to inflation and price increases (The most important issues for voters, according to surveys). But immigration would not have been a significant cause of their woes.
Obviously, disorder at the border isn't the only cause of anti-immigration sentiment. There are also various economic and cultural arguments, plus generalized xenophobia. But disorder is nonetheless a major factor, that easing legal migration could greatly reduce.
Alex makes many more good points, which are not easily summarized here. If you're interested in these issues, read the whole thing!
I would just a couple points to his analysis. First, much of the trouble supposedly caused by migration in various "blue" cities is actually a result of asylum-seekers not being allowed to work legally in the US for many months after arrival, and zoning rules that make it difficult or impossible to build new housing in response to demand. Letting migrants work immediately and developers build new housing would simultaneously bolster the US economy and reduce anti-immigration sentiments caused by seeming burdens on city budgets.
Second, like Alex, I favor reducing migrant access to welfare (though, as he notes, migrants already use it at much lower rates than natives). But I am not, so far, convinced this will make a big difference to public opinion. Most voters are "rationally ignorant" about policy details and don't know to what extent migrants (or even natives) have access to various welfare benefits. Chaos at the border has more of an impact on public opinion because it is dramatic, and often readily visible even to people who don't follow politics closely and don't know much about most policy issues.
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Will no one rid us of this turbulent priest of unfettered immigration?
Easier =\= unfettered.
Guess you don't read between the lines of Somin's posts.
"Easier ≠ unfettered" is not that difficult.
Guess you read only between the lines of Somin's posts.
So what fetters does Somin support? In all of his many, many articles on immigration I can not recall a single limitation on immigration that he supports. So please enlighten us on what fetters Somin supports.
That’s a historical question, but in this particular article he clearly uses or quotes qualifying language, so, not unfettered.
So what fetters does he support in this article? Show me the quote that suggests a fetter he would support.
"In cases where Biden did make legal entry easier, as with the creation of the CHNV program for migrants from four Latin America nations, illegal entries from those countries declined greatly“
With so many got-a-ways who would know?
That doesn't identify, or even suggest, any immigration fetters that Somin supports.
He gives CHNV as an example of his point, and it was not “unfettered.”
Praising an example of making immigration easier is very different from supporting fetters on immigration. His overall "point" was that he wants open borders.
It’s an example of easier but quite fettered immigration. And it’s given in the text of the OP, is open borders?
In what way does that sentence suggest that Somin supports those measures? Especially when in the past Somin has stated he opposed those measures.
He opposed CHNV? Cite?
He supported the program, but expressly and repeatedly noted that his objections to the modest restrictions that came with it, and complained that it didn’t go far enough, e.g.
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/08/29/biden-administration-restarts-chnv-immigration-parole-program-for-migrants-from-four-latin-american-nations/
So Biden legalized entry from four countries and illegal entry from those four countries dropped.
Make robbing banks legal and the chaos of bank robberies ends.
Making legal concealed carry easier almost certainly makes illegal carry decline.
"Making legal concealed carry easier almost certainly makes illegal carry decline."
No, you're wrong. The vast, vast majority of those carrying illegally are ineligible to carry legally, due to age, criminal record, drug use, and so forth. The number of people who are eligible to carry legally but carry illegally is infinitesimally small.
Machine guns and land mines. That would restore order at the border...
With Canada maybe, those Mexicans are some tough Hombres
I would be in favor of reforming legal immigration. H1 visa limits qualified individuals via the use of the lottery.
I sponsored an individual from India. Quite a few hoops as employer to run through. Risky to hire the person due to risk of the employee not getting selected in the lottery, and losing all the training costs. Then the government required pay scale associated with the sponsorship often doesnt match the market. I was paying the person 7-8% above market. Then the sponsorship requirements make it difficult to terminate.
It would be a vast improvement from the fake border enforcement - ie the wink wink nod nod
>> Then the government required pay scale associated with the sponsorship often doesnt match the market. I was paying the person 7-8% above market.
That part at least makes sense? AIUI those are supposed to be for when you can't find anyone worth hiring locally, which in theory ought to match reasonably well with being willing to pay a premium.
Tim B - That is both a yes and no
In my case she was hired as entry level based on F1 and at market comp for 1st year staff accountant.
When she went to h1 visa, the required pay was about 10k above market.
In my industry, the value of the employee is two factors A) the skill set and work ethic and B) client knowledge. After one year, an employee has value from those two skill sets, but the required pay is above market.
Just to clarify.
As a f1 student visa with a one year post graduation time frame to work, there is no minimum salary so the pay scale matches market rates.
As h1, the employer is required to pay based on the DOL payscale. In my industry, the required pay was about $10k above market. (adding the caveat that the 10k above market is limited to my industry. I dont have info on delta in other industries)
FYIGM
Make robbing banks legal and the chaos of bank robberies ends right Somin?
Not even close to the argument he is making. Maybe read the post and you wouldn't sound like such a moron.
It is exactly the argument he's making.
No, the analogy does not work. Robbing a bank is inherently wrong. Immigrating is not.
Illegal entry is and that is the cause of "border chaos".
Breaking the law is inherently wrong and by definition illegally crossing the border is breaking the law.
Stealing other people's money is inherently wrong. That is the case whether it is legal or illegal. Thus, you can't make stealing other people's money right by making it legal.
Crossing the border is not inherently wrong. Thus, while crossing illegally is wrong, crossing legaly is not wrong. So, you can make crossing the border right by making it legal.
See why your analogy fails now?
Taxation is theft but is not inherently wrong. What can be counted as inherently wrong is illegally entering and demanding that that country use taxes stolen from citizens to take care of them by providing food and shelter.
Some theft is ok?
In California it is.
So you'd have turned in Anne Frank.
Interesting philosophical argument...
Why is illegally removing money from a bank (ie, "Robbing" a bank, but also forms of fraud and larceny) inherently wrong, but illegally entering a country not inherently wrong?
If one robs a bank, well, it's all usually covered by insurance anyway. The FDIC reimburses most everything (some slight exceptions may apply, and even those are often covered after the fact). The government just covers the cost....
If people illegally immigrate, are then is put up in a fancy NYC hotel, and ends up costing the government $5 Billion (https://abc3340.com/news/nation-world/undocumented-migrants-cost-nyc-5-billion-cost-expected-to-double-by-2025-new-york-city-border-harris-biden) the government just covers the cost in the end.
So, what's the real difference between the two? You have individuals who break the law, for their own gain, and end up costing the government lots of money.
This is of course different from LEGALLY removing money from a bank, or LEGALLY immigrating.
But we're talking about ILLEGALLY removing money from a bank versus ILLEGALLY immigrating. In both cases, it ends up costing the government lots of money. Which...in part...is why laws were made against it.
Somin is arguing for increased legal immigration, not increased illegal immigration.
And CountmontyC argued to legalize bank robbing, not increased illegal robberies.
Somin is arguing for making all immigration legal, by depriving the federal government of the power to regulate immigration.
"Somin is arguing for increased legal immigration, not increased illegal immigration."
Yes....and no. He's arguing for increased immigration by any means possible. Reduced enforcement of laws, executive orders, lawfare, etc.
Let's stick with the bank robbery scenario as an analogy. Somin's argument here would be that "banks should inject more money into the economy for economic growth, so those who engage in bank robbery should be given an amnesty, because it just gets more money into the economy. Also, those who rob banks should not be a priority of law enforcement, because they get more money into the economy. Also, those who rob banks should be supported by a robust pro-bono legal community to stop their prosecution. A series of "sanctuary cities" should be set up that refuse to prosecute bank robbery. Also, bank robbery should be downgraded to a mere misdemeanor and not a felony."
Technically, all of that is "legal." In practice however, it encourages more illegal withdrawals of money from the bank. Likewise, many of the technically legal policies that Somin promotes encourage illegal immigration.
Is illegal entry considered a malum in se offense like robbery is?
Malika almost had it correct. Is entry (not illegal entry) considered a malum in se offense like robbery is?
The answer is no and thus the analogy fails. Somin would not argue that "banks should inject more money into the economy for economic growth, so those who engage in bank robbery should be given an amnesty" because robbery is inherently immoral.
You continue to dodge the question by substituting general "entry" for illegal entry.
Is ILLEGAL ENTRY (and staying) considered "malum in se", given it can have the same end consequences as bank robbery? The government is just on the hook for the money at the end, either way.
I’m pretty sure illegal entry is not malum in se (btw-I also don’t think “end consequences” defines what falls into that category).
"Malum in se" (wrong in itself) is whether an act is wrong without regard to whether it is legal. You can't judge illegal entry, or illegal robbery or illegal nudity or illegal anything else as being malum in se. You can only judge entry, robbery, nudity, etc.
Somin wants to make entry legal, not illegal entry legal (which of course makes no sense). He does not want to make robbery legal.
Robbery itself however is just illegally taking something from someone (as opposed to legally taking it from someone). It's defined as "the action of taking property unlawfully from a person or place (by force or threat of force)." If you get hung up the force bit, you can substitute larceny, which is simply illegally taking something from someone. Which you also would likely say is "Malum in se"
Thus, you would say that illegally taking something from someone is malum in se, because that's how robbery is defined. But you seemingly can't judge if illegal entry is malum in se.
Let's give you a challenge. Is "Taking someone from someone" "Malum in se"? Why or why not?
Or is it only when it's defined as "Illegally taking something from someone" (aka robbery) that suddenly it can be judged as Malum in se?
Taking something from someone else without their permission, or the permission of the majority in limited cases (e.g., taxation) is malum in se.
You’re idiotically wiggling because you’re wrong. Robbery has always been malum in as, illegal entry hasn’t
Josh,
We take things from other people all the time without their express permission. Whether it be taxation, or a father forced to give up his house in a divorce or a mother forced to give up her children because of substance abuse issues or the repo-man coming to repossess a car. What makes it OK is that the law says it's OK. If simply "taking things from people without their permission" was malum in se, all of the above would be "wrong in itself.
The "permission of the majority in limited cases" is just a way to say "If the law makes it legal, then it's no longer malum in se" Which is backwards, because of the very concept or "wrong in itself" suddenly needs a proviso for when it's suddenly made legal.. Then it's not wrong in itself?
The analogy works because illegal immigration was presumably made illegal for a reason. The U.S., while being the most generous and welcoming nation in history, has limits on immigration for a reason. Somin's argument is that in order to address people breaking the law, we should simply legalize the conduct at issue. But that ignores any consideration of why the conduct is illegal in the first place. If the conduct should be illegal, then the law can be enforced if you actually wanted to do so. If the conduct should not be illegal, then it should be legalized regardless of whether people are breaking the law.
So Somin's argument is completely useless and irrelevant. And the analogy offered here, while no analogy is perfect, is suitable for making this point.
Another analogy would be if you had a big problem with people trespassing on your property, and the response was "oh easy solution, just give permission to the entire public to enjoy your property."
"Somin's argument is that in order to address people breaking the law, we should simply legalize the conduct at issue."
He says easier.
The analogy doesn't work because none of us believes that robbery should be legal. Somin believes entry should be legal (*) (he rejects the reasons for why it was made illegal).
(*) Assuming for the sake of argument he wants no restrictions on entry.
Robbery can't be made legal, because it's defined as illegally taking something from someone.
You could however make just taking things from people legal. Or enforced less readily. Or decriminalized. Some people do call for that sort of thing. Proposition 47 in California made taking things from people that were less than $950 a misdemeanor.
No, you can't just make taking things from people legal and render it all fine and good.
Legal is not the same as fine and good.
There's an elementary criminal law distinction at work others have already touched on in this thread:
Malum prohibitum vs. Malum in se.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/malum_in_se
Armchair should know this by now from posting here, but he didn't go to law school.
ML, you have no excuse not to know this.
"No, you can't just make taking things from people legal and render it all fine and good. Legal is not the same as fine and good."
Sarcastr0,
You absolutely can, and we do it ALL THE TIME.
Near every form of taxation is "taking things from people" And it's fine and good (because it's legal). Then we can get into eminent domain and a host of other items.
"The analogy doesn't work because none of us believes that robbery should be legal."
I would agree that the analogy doesn't work for explaining why illegal immigration should remain illegal, i.e. that there should be limits on immigration and not open borders.
It does work for explaining why the argument "people are breaking this law so just make the conduct legal" isn't a good argument.
I see your point: if nonexistent things happened, things would be different.
Once again: asylum seekers are sometimes put up in (decidedly non-fancy) hotels; illegal immigrants (a different category) are not.
That's bullshit, David, and you know it. Take just my state, Massachusetts, as an example. As of July, "State budget writers, in planning for another year of filled-to-capacity shelters, set aside $1 billion to pay for migrant housing and other services. According to Jessica Vaughan, director of policy studies at the Center, those costs will only go up."
"According to the case study, there are 355,000 “illegal and inadmissible migrants” living in the Bay State, 50,000 of whom arrived over the last three years. Many recent arrivals, study authors claim, are in the country under a federal “parole” program and may already be eligible for state provided services, and many more could become eligible in the coming years.
“A significant share of migrants settling in Massachusetts who entered under Biden parole programs, including Ukrainians, Haitians, and children, may be eligible for welfare programs upon arrival,” study authors write. “Other parolees may become eligible for welfare programs five years after entry, regardless of whether they ever attain legal status. This cohort represents a potential fiscal time bomb in terms of welfare costs, beginning in 2026. The additional annual cost for SNAP benefits alone just for the parolees in Massachusetts could be $4.6 million.”"
A lot of the bullshit rhetoric on this topic, and comments like yours, are from sympathizers conflating immigration with illegal immigration, calling everyone who comes an asylee, and the Biden admin granting "parole" to illegal border crossers.
It's much worse than you and your cohort portray it.
The illegal immigrant is a thief and should be shot.
Bloodthirsty nut wants attention!
No. See my response to you below. His point (at least in this post) is that the political problem Biden had with immigration wasn't the illegal immigration rate, but the chaos at the border trying to enforce restrictions. You guys just keep going back to comments about making illegal immigration more legal, and it would lower rates of illegal immigration, which is not what he is saying. It is a straw man.
Was chaos at the border the only problem that most Americans had with the Biden Maladministration's border policies? Or did people have a problem with the criminal element that came along with the mass immigration? Criminal elements like Tren de Agua, José Antonio Ibarra, Franklin Pena Ramos, Johan Martinez and Victor Martinez Hernandez among others.
Or maybe blue collar voters don't like the competition for jobs and housing, the increased taxes to feed and house all of these illegal aliens.
Of course you can not really address those issues so you simply scream "RACIST" and hope that will end the argument.
Where did AWD “scream racism?”
A quote from him further down the thread
"I think that's the main problem with this post. Prof. Somin seems to think it is the chaos and uncertainty at the border causing the political headache, but I think it is just the raw numbers of brown people entering the country. "
Fine. Shoot them too.
What I can or can't address isn't really the issue. We are talking about what Prof. Somin said or didn't say in this post. I am not agreeing with his argument, I am objecting to commenters like you relentlessly strawmanning everything he writes. And you pretending that I'm arguing in support of his post is strawmanning of everything I wrote. Although you are correct that I believe there is a fair amount of racism in the debate. I'll try not to scream about it.
That would make CountmontyC two steps ahead of you, an idiot. See below.
idiot: 0-25
Imbecile: 26-50
Moron: 51-75
I did read the post and it amounted to "if we had admitted the 7.2 million who crossed the border illegally had instead been allowed to enter legally there would have been no chaos." Of course if the USA announced that all were welcome we would have had far more than 7.2 million and unless there was a good amount of vetting there would have been a lot more criminals among them which would have meant more crime and chaos.
"Amounted to" is doing a lot of work there. When I see that phrase, I know a straw man is right around the corner.
That is Somin's argument.
Beat me to it. This guy.
That, in turn led to the kind of disorder and chaos at the border that angers many voters, and make it politically difficult to expand opportunities for legal migration, even though the latter are the best way to prevent the chaos voters dislike.
Maybe because Somin seems not to read the comments, he gets less insight into topics he raises. MAGA anti-immigrationists are not, by and large, troubled by border chaos. Trump says no to legislation which would reduce chaos, MAGA types get in line without a peep. Like Trump, they want the issue, and discourage its solution. If legal immigration resulted in the kind of influx of Latin Americans Somin seems to visualize, MAGA would oppose that massively.
Somin gets that, but minimizes it. Committed right wingers—and Somin's take on libertarianism makes him one—cannot afford to admit publicly the extent to which racism drives their political support, lest they be accused themselves of being racist.
Trump's "green card with college degree" ain't gonna cut it -- doctorate in specific fields, yes, but not *any* degree!
I'll be calling for his impeachment if he does that!
Fuck the Doctorates, why are 95% of Nephrologists Indian? (Dot head subtype, not Casino owner) Do you really want to go to a Chechen Surgeon Moose-lum or otherwise? (and don't mistakenly refer to them as "Czech", they're 2 different countries, 2,000 miles apart) And been to a Truckstop lately? might as well be Terror-Anne with all the prayer mats and Mufti.
The center of the Czech Republic is 1500 miles from the Chechen Republic, not 2000. And the latter is part of Russia, not a country.
"Address soaring crime rates by legalizing illegal conduct"
Same reasoning.
Read the OP.
Nothing inspires lazy knee-jerk comments like an immigration post.
I have read the OP. It's lazy arguments, he really DOES seriously make the "hand out money for free and bank robberies go away!" argument.
No that isn't his argument here, because his point isn't that easing restrictions would lower illegal immigration rates - that's obviously true in a "legalizing illegal conduct way." Rather he's writing that it would lower chaos and uncertainty at the border.
I understand him to be making the argument that if things were less chaotic, most Americans would be okay with the vast increase in legal immigration. I'm not sure that's right, but that seems to be what his argument is.
It's exactly what Somin said:
"In cases where Biden did make legal entry easier, as with the creation of the CHNV program for migrants from four Latin America nations, illegal entries from those countries declined greatly."
In other words, make something legal and it happens illegally less often.
With the CHNV there is (at least supposedly) “clear robust security vetting.”
https://www.uscis.gov/CHNV
You are equating "make legal entry easier" with "make something legal." That way you can shoehorn the old "make something illegal legal" straw man in once again.
But whatever. It's inevitable here with every Prof. Somin post. Why fight it?
Just read Somin's title: Address Border Chaos by Making Legal Migration Easier
People only care about the border chaos because it shows that millions of undesirables are being let into the nation. Letting them in a more orderly way will not make people happy.
But it can't reduce chaos at the border, by increasing legal immigration, because the people immigrating illegally are not the kind of people you'd admit legally under any remotely sane immigration system. They're people who would fail even the slightest effort at vetting.
Under Trump we were admitting a bit over 1M legal immigrants a year. Seven million in four years would be less than doubling that.
And yet, during the Biden administration, 7.2M illegal immigrants.
If every one of those new legal immigrants came out of that 7.2M, you'd STILL have about 4M illegal immigrants left over, which is plenty to cause your chaos.
But, again, the illegal immigrants are not, typically, people who you'd get under any sane legal immigration system, so they're always going to be in addition to legal immigration.
You know how you avoid chaos on the border? By enforcement. To the point where people don't bother trying.
Do visa overstayers count? How about the 1.5 million with valid deportation orders who are still here?
Tom Homan has his hands full and I hope he's up to the job he's been given.
"But it can't reduce chaos at the border, by increasing legal immigration, because the people immigrating illegally are not the kind of people you'd admit legally under any remotely sane immigration system. They're people who would fail even the slightest effort at vetting."
Were you always this retarded, or are you making a special effort here?
Tick-tock, Brett.
Brett is exactly right with that comment, it is you who is retarded.
Yes, I didn't say I agreed with Prof. Somin's argument here. I'm just tired of the constant strawmanning of every post he makes concerning immigration.
It's pretty hard to strawman his posts, when his position really is that it is unconstitutional for the federal government to have immigration laws. (And yet, somehow, controlling immigration doesn't thereby become a reserved 10th amendment power of states.)
The only restrictions on immigration I can recall him actually supporting are barring entry by plague carriers, (But it's got to be a really bad disease.) and invading soldiers. And that's it. And he doesn't really support any actual mechanism that might detect the plague carriers...
You are utterly unable to not drag in stuff beyond the argument in the OP.
Best case you engage with the OP for one post. Then you just yell about long past posts that may or may not have happened.
"that may or may not have happened"? I literally linked to it, and you're questioning whether he really expressed those views?
It's basically impossible to exaggerate how extreme Somin's views on immigration are. He denies that it's constitutional to have immigration laws AT ALL.
Are we really supposed to not put what he writes about immigration into that undeniable context?
Yep. The accusations of racism by the supporters of illegal immigration against those who oppose it is very knee-jerk. We can count on at least a half dozen people to make the accusation every time.
That's quite a leap you're making.
So far Stephen Lathrop, not guilty,Alpheus W Drinkwater have made the racism accusation. Halfway there.
One is halfway to six?
Drinkwater quote
"I think that's the main problem with this post. Prof. Somin seems to think it is the chaos and uncertainty at the border causing the political headache, but I think it is just the raw numbers of brown people entering the country. "
Lathrop
"Somin gets that, but minimizes it. Committed right wingers—and Somin's take on libertarianism makes him one—cannot afford to admit publicly the extent to which racism drives their political support, lest they be accused themselves of being racist."
not guilty
"Making legal migration easier is highly unlikely to happen, in that that does nothing to fan the flames of hatred toward brown people."
All three bring race into the discussion and declare that those opposing illegal immigration do so because of race( despite not one person opposing illegal immigration citing the race of the illegal aliens).
So are you making the argument that there is no racism in the immigration debate from the anti-immigration side? I would say you are deluded, if that is your position.
I do not favor a completely open border, and I think there are good reasons to place some restrictions on immigration. But there are also bad reasons.
No, I am saying that when the pro illegal immigration side can't debate the issue based on facts they often scream racism. The only people who mentioned race as part of the debate were pro illegal immigration people such as yourself.
I am not a pro-illegal immigration person; and have frequently commented not only to say that, but to express support for tighter immigration controls. I have also said, however, that the persistent racism on display from anti-immigration advocates has driven me toward condemning that, and away from commenting on the issue itself.
"As Alex explains, these policies could not prevent extensive illegal border-crossing, because the latter was primarily dictated by strong US labor-market demand, and horrific oppression and economic conditions in many of the migrants' countries of origin."
I honestly can't decide whether you're dishonest or just plain nuts.
Illegal immigration went up like somebody throwing a light switch when Biden took office, then dropped again when the election approached and he decided it was hurting him politically. It was purely a function of policy choices, always under control. The administration was literally spending enforcement money to cut barbed wire and assist illegals across the border! The flood wasn't in spite of their best efforts, it was what their efforts were bent to accomplish...
And then, the usual "You could abolish bank robbery by giving money to anyone who asked for it!" argument, if you can dignify it as such.
I keep thinking, nobody could be that stupid, you HAVE to know it's a ludicrous argument that persuades absolutely nobody. But maybe you actually think it's persuasive?
Yes, Biden issued dozens of executive orders to encourage illegal aliens to come, and to avoid deportation. Somin argues that nothing can be done about the illegals. He is either dishonest or nuts. He has posted these foolish arguments many times, and the comments explain how wrong he is.
I refuse to believe that nothing can be done about foreigners invading at our borders. Somin says all these crazy stupid things, and then always ends his posts by complaining that everyone who disagrees with him is ignorant.
Alex was probably a Kamala voter. 😉
Making legal migration easier is highly unlikely to happen, in that that does nothing to fan the flames of hatred toward brown people.
You could see legal immigration made easier AFTER illegal immigration was cut down to a trickle. Not before, not while the legal immigrants are on top of a flood of illegal ones.
"Easier" does not, of course, mean less selective. It just means easier.
Even if we increased legal immigration I doubt it would have any affect on illegal immigration as those most likely to be admitted are not the same as those crossing illegally. Those admitted legally would still be mostly those who had skills and education far above a vast majority of illegal border crossers.
Remember, Somin's position is that immigration law is unconstitutional. That the only people the federal government can constitutionally bar entry to are plague carriers and invading armies.
So, given his assumptions, the legal immigrants WOULD be identical to the current illegal immigrants, because the only criterion for legal entry would be, "do you want to enter?", and they obviously satisfy that.
I've pointed out before that his position on immigration is so radically unpopular that the only way it could ever be formally adopted by the government is if America ceased to be a functioning democracy. Any real world expansion of legal immigration is going to be an expansion of selective legal immigration, and as you say, the illegal immigrants would remain illegal, and so would continue to attempt to cross the border illegally.
Under Somin's preferred laws, the current set of illegal immigrants would only be among the first wave of legal immigrants. All the people who are deterred by the current barriers to entry from even trying would revisit their assessment.
I think that's the main problem with this post. Prof. Somin seems to think it is the chaos and uncertainty at the border causing the political headache, but I think it is just the raw numbers of brown people entering the country. Easing immigration restrictions would enflame these passions more, even if it lessened the chaos at the border.
"Brown people" is an offensive term.
Meanwhile, most American Latinos agree...the border is a mess, and illegal immigration needs to be greatly reduced.
The Grand Compromise (that likely won't satisfy anyone):
Build the wall. Severely punish employers who hire unlawfully present employees. No release into the community for pending aslyum applications (either detention or remain in Mexico).
Issue a general amnesty for those unlawfully present in the USA for at least two years without a felony conviction. Increase the number of legal immigrants under both asylum and employment. Cut the red tape to process everyone more quickly.
Nope. No amnesty. Never again.
That is what was supposed to happen the first time, but to everyone's amazement, the democrats lied.
Wasn’t that bill signed by Reagan?
...and?
He was a democrat?
Yes he was a Democrat who saw the light and became a Republican.
Unfortunately he forgot how duplicitous Democrats are when he signed the bill.
Yes. President Reagan agreed to an amnesty after the Democrats of the time promised that border security and immigration enforcement would immediately follow. Of course the amnesty was granted and ended up with a much higher total than the bill originally envisioned but neither better border security nor immigration followed. A pattern that seems to occur in most immigration bills where improved border security and immigration enforcement is always supposedly after any amnesty is granted. Nope. Not gonna happen that way again,
Republicans controlled at least one half of Congress at that time and Reagan not only signed it, he extended it via executive action.
"Issue a general amnesty"
We tried that before. Didn't work. All it did was encourage more people to illegally immigrate.
Choice 1: Get in line to legally immigrate...might cost a few hundred (or thousand) dollars, takes more than few years.
Choice 2: Illegally immigrate, get all the benefits of working in the US now, and know you may just luck out with your amnesty.
For the vast majority of people, including the overwhelming majority of people who currently come or remain here illegally, there is no "line." I think a lot of people who fancy themselves moderate on the issue picture people at the back of the line cutting in line ahead of those in front of them to get into a concert faster or to get on a ride at Disneyworld or whatever. And they think, "That's unfair; wait your turn." But that's not the reality of the situation; there is no "your turn" for them. They're not even able to stand in the line at all. Other than marrying a U.S. citizen, there is essentially no path to admission for them, ever. (And no, Brett, it's not because they couldn't survive vetting.)
Resource all of that properly, and rationalize our weird and tangled visa and residency system, and I'd be freaking thrilled.
I think the wall is silly and a bad symbol, but it's not a hill I'll die on.
But the GOP won't do compromise on this. Every compromise I've seen in the past 15 years has been shot down by the GOP base. Especially those authored by Republicans.
At least for now, this is no longer an area of problem solving for them.
The reason all the compromises get shot down is because you can't really negotiate compromises with people who won't keep their side of the compromise. What is the freaking POINT of new immigration laws when you guys refuse to enforce the existing laws? Why should we give up anything AT ALL in return for a law that will be violated?
You've been negotiating compromises with a minority of the GOP who are willing to negotiate with you only because they don't care if you break the deal. They're actually on your side on this issue. Then the moment the deal winds up in front of average Republicans, it falls through.
Your partisan paranoia and telepathic assumption of Democratic bad faith is corrosive to the ability to pass good legislation.
Congrats, you win a shit system and the ability to complain forever. On the backs of immiserating many noncitizens for that length of time as well.
Won't compromise. Won't change your mind. Making things up as you will. Don't think I haven't forgotten your unsupported bigotry that illegals must be more prone to criminal behavior!
Until people like you die off, I don't see anything getting better.
Bad faith on the part of Democrats isn't assumed, it's demonstrated.
I know you'll deny this to the end of time, but Trump was largely enforcing our immigration laws, and Biden, with the exact same resources, allowed vastly more illegal immigration. That's a policy of non-enforcement, and no matter how much you want us to ignore it, we're not going to.
"Don't think I haven't forgotten your unsupported bigotry that illegals must be more prone to criminal behavior!"
My unsupported bigotry that a group of people DEFINED by violating the law must be more prone to criminal behavior. That's scarcely what is normally meant by "unsupported".
Until it's established that immigration laws will actually be enforced, there's no point to changing them, and no motive to offer any concessions in return for such changes.
Bad faith on the part of Democrats isn't assumed, it's demonstrated.
Your kind of terminal partisan demonization a roadblock to every single policy improvement there is.
We disagree about what constitutes a "policy improvement"! Do you somehow not understand that?
And it remains a fact that, with Democratic administrations not enforcing laws they don't like, compromise IS impossible, because we know that any part of the compromise that favors our policy preferences won't be enforced.
Compromise requires trust, and there is no basis for trust on immigration.
compromise IS impossible, because we know that any part of the compromise that favors our policy preferences won't be enforced.
Compromise is needed in a democratic form of government. Your demonization of the other side is a partisan delusion that assures nothing but a slow decline.
Living in a constant defensive crouch is not a long-term viable strategy.
But you're not convincible on any of this. Which is why you and people who think like you just need to die off.
Then we, as in all of us who may disagree but have not chosen to lose the ability to trust, will get some shit done.
Compromise is needed, but it still remains impossible if only one side of the compromise actually gets enforced, and the people you're asking to compromise know that up front. Once you have that situation, there can't be compromise anymore, just winning or losing.
You've deluded yourself out of being a functional member of the policy.
You are now purely an impediment.
There's no reasoning with you. Like I said, we gotta wait your type out.
I certainly hope I'm an impediment to Somin's preferred immigration policy.
That’s not what we were talking about, and you know it.
Your scope of no compromise is….well, everything.
A long history of Democrat bad faith and betrayal is what gave us the existing broken system. First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Alan Simpson and Ronald Reagan were Democrats?
You really should stop bringing up the 1986 amnesty bill because that bill was the one that made all sorts of promises by Democrats about border security and immigration enforcement in exchange for that amnesty. Promises that the Democrats immediately broke. Bringing it up just emphasizes that the Democrats are liars.
That's the best example he has, even though it only reinforces my point.
There was a the gang of 5, and the gang of 8, and then the most recent bill that DHS endorsed.
Your lot is not interested in solving the problem.
Or any problem really. You just want to own the libs.
Tell you what, bring up a bill that is nothing but border security and immigration enforcement and after it has been in effect for 3-5 years we will discuss an amnesty bill. Deal?
Comprehensive means comprehensive.
I'm not going to make policy based on some partisan complaint you have from 40 years ago.
Old grudges are a stupid thing to hold onto.
It's probably based on bullshit anyhow.
How about we automatically trigger (no further votes) amnesty when the wall is built, and halt deportations (except for those convicted of felonies) for 5 years while the wall is being built. If the wall isn't built in 5 years, we revert to current operations.
Comprehensive can be through multiple bills. The Democrats need to show good faith and pass enforcement and security measures if they really want amnesty considered.
Btw I recall President Trump at one point offered limited amnesty for the DACA recipients in exchange for border wall funding and rather than negotiate simply refused.
https://www.reuters.com/article/world/trump-offers-dreamers-a-path-to-citizenship-wants-other-immigration-curbs-idUSKBN1FE3B4/
So tell me SarcastrO who refused to negotiate?
Could be, but why?
Josh has a suggestion for phased implementation. What do you think of it?
Phase it in by passing a bill that secures the border and immigration enforcement first then we can discuss amnesty.
That's not a compromise (you get everything). Nor would be promising to secure the border after giving amensty (Somin gets everything). So why not secure the border first which automatically triggers amnesty (no further votes)? Both sides get something.
The problem is that Republicans and Democrats generally disagree about what "the problem" is, so our solutions to "the problem" are largely mutually exclusive.
And all you're demonstrating here is that none of these 'compromise' bills had any widespread support among Republicans. They were Democratic bills with buy in by a few outlier Republicans, that's all.
Anyone who says that an extremely complicated and multidimensional issue like immigration has just 2 mutually exclusive sides has chosen lazy partisanship.
Because I want to see actual enforcement first. Building a wall is useless if a POTUS like Potato head Biden gets into office and simply stops enforcing the laws on the books. I want concrete set in stone guarantees that the laws will be enforced and I will not accept any amnesty until then.
You want everything you want and nothing you don’t. With no compromise.
Because you are salty about the 1980s.
You are not acting like a serious person.
The Democrats lied? The bill was introduced by a Republican, passed by a Republican controlled Senate and then signed, praised and extended by a Republican president.
Yes the Democrats lied. Promises were made by the Democrats that if amnesty were passed follow up legislation would address border security and immigration enforcement. Amnesty passed but the follow up legislation was never even considered.
Cite?
And why didn’t the GOP controlled Senate or the GOP President for years after offer up and consider such legislation?
Simpson -Mazzoli act passed in 1986 and was signed November 1986. Democrats regained both the Senate and House in 1987 and would control both until after the 1994 wipeout ( at which time a Democrat by the name of Bill Clinton was POTUS.
Now I know you're a goof because the Democrats didn't "regain" control of the House then.
You are right. They maintained control of the House and regained the Senate. Doesn't change that the Democrats lied about passing and enforcing border control and security measures if amnesty passed.
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/dont-get-fooled-again-trump-and-congress-can-learn-from-reagan-and-reform-our-immigration-system
You’re source provides no evidence for your claim
Um, Reagan was the one in charge of immigration enforcement at the time. How could Democrats have broken their promises on the subject even if they wanted to?
“Severely punish employers who hire unlawfully present employees.”
I doubt Trump is willing to push that.
https://americasvoice.org/blog/trump-hates-legal-immigration-except-when-he-loves-it/
No general amnesty, Josh R. I would be open to an arrangement for DACA recipients only (not their families).
Totally on board with opening the doors wide to legal immigration, with very stringent criteria. America is the place to be, on this planet. We can skim the cream from the ROW with legal immigration.
Agree that employers who hire illegal aliens can and must be prosecuted. I would go further and mandate a minimum of prison time, and that also means 'perp walks' by CEOs of large companies. Use of eVerify would mitigate liability in some manner.
The walls will be built. Nothing to compromise on there.
What makes you think the wall will be built without Democratic votes? It wasn't during Trump's first term.
During Trump's first term the Republican establishment were still working against him, often openly. Now he's largely taken over the party, so that shouldn't be a factor.
The Republican establishment at not one single fraction of an instant in time after November 8, 2016 was ever working against Trump. A small fraction of the Republican establishment abandoned Trump for a few hours, or days, after J6; they were back on the Trump train by January 13, when all but 10 voted that his attempt to overthrow the government wasn't even impeachmentworthy.
"Since the election, a conventional wisdom has emerged to the effect that Democrats lost in large part because Joe Biden adopted lax border policies, which led to voter backlash against an influx of immigration, and therefore that tougher immigration restrictions are the road to political success."
Biden fixed the problem by offering a deal that gave Congressional Republicans most of what they wanted. They agreed to it -- but then backed out when Trump ordered them to. He didn't want the problem fixed under a Biden Administration. He is a child who, if he can't have something, breaks it.
Repeat: Trump is the reason the problem persists.
Thank God for Trump's intercession into what amounted to an amnesty bill in border-security drag. The Chamber of Commerce Rs and the Globalist Ds are an unholy alliance: one worships markets; the other wants to colonize sovereign peoples into woke liberalism.
The Biden fix was to let in 5000 illegals a day.
The Biden bill also allowed the Department of Homeland Security to waive the enforcement mechanisms in the bill simply by declaring it in the best interest of the USA in his/her opinion.
It also limited court challenges to provisions of the bill to the DC circuit court some 1200 miles away from the southern border.
The Biden bill gave Republicans "most of what they wanted", except a functioning border.
It was Biden who created the problem. No bill was necessary. It would just have taken a return to the Trump Administration policies.
We've actually had problems at the border during and well before the Trump administration!
Are you just purely vibes based or what?
"We've actually had problems at the border during and well before the Trump administration!"
Sure, like eight years of the Obola administration.
Under the Trump Administration illegal border crossings dropped to decades lows. Under the Biden Maladministration illegal border crossings surged to all time highs.
But both are exactly the same right?
Decade lows is not solving the problem.
Performative cruelty is not a long-term solution either.
Under the Biden Maladministration
What a child.
So a solution has to be 100% perfect or it's bad? We are not talking about a minute difference in performance here, we are talking about a fourfold increase under the Biden Maladministration.
You: “It was Biden who created the problem.”
That’s the discussion here.
No new goalposts.
Border apprehensions in 2019 were twice that of 2011.
https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/20326/mexicans-non-mexcians-apprehended-at-southern-us-border/
Yet still far below that of even the lowest year under the Biden Maladministration. Barely more than half even. And even that worst year under Trump dropped to less than half a year later.
Hmm, didn’t you say this: “Under the Trump Administration illegal border crossings dropped to decades lows.”
So that was just flat wrong, right?
And your chart shows exactly that.
Lows higher than the Obama administration preceding it? Lol
How about we address "border chaos" with landmines? I want the southwest border to look like the DMZ.
Oh hey another psycho to join Dr. Ed.
Murderous asshole.
Wrong; I want the murders to stop. Far more human lives would be saved by turning our border with Mexico into a DMZ than not.
1. Murder for the sake of some utilitarian net gain of lives is still murder.
2. Do you have any source for how many murders you would prevent? No? Then you're just a psycho looking for an excuse.
But he sounds seriously tough!
"Do you have any source for how many murders you would prevent?"
Illegal alien crime is well documented and easily accessible via search engines.
There is only one way to end the border chaos, that is enforce order at the border.
Increasing legal immigration, which I support, will have almost no effect because the people coming in over the border are not the same people who will get visas under expanded legal immigration. Whether its a lottery system, merit, or family based, or first come first served its very unlikely that more than 1-2% of those attempting to cross the border illegally would get a legal visa.
As for Ilya's claim that Biden tried to discourage illegal immigration by his statements, the giveaways, free housing, work permits, free transportation, and of course the CBP One phone app told a completely different story.
Yet another person who can't understand that asylum seekers and illegal immigrants are different categories entirely.
Phony baloney asylum seekers and illegal aliens are one and the same.
What is so praiseworthy about a suggetsion to : Follow the Law ?
Conservatives yelling “Enforce/Follow the Law” are currently stripping the IRS of funding to…enforce the law.
I guess I missed it. Which law was passed "stripping" the IRS of funding?
You miss a lot.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/republicans-strip-irs-another-20-152643102.html
So continued funding at current levels, which is what a continuing resolution is supposed to do, is a cut? Or are you arguing that the IRS receiving a $40 billion increase over the last four years instead of $80 billion is still a cut?
If the Democrats stripped a planned increase in border enforcement what would you call it?
Typical Democratic policy when it comes to border enforcement but not a cut. A cut would be like many Democrats who demand ICE be eliminated.
with "No Tax on Tips" you could get rid of 99% of IRS Agents (bottom of the Ocean would be my preference for where to send them, lot of Tax cheats at 20,000 Leagues under the sea.)
Trump has proposed a drastic liberalization of immigration, it seems, according to the below tweet. Trump has always talked about the need for lots of immigrant labor. I suspect he would support a heck of a lot more immigration than is broadly popular among Americans generally or his supporters in particular.
https://x.com/PiperK/status/1872510194493637095
"OMG. Now Trump is weighing in on Elon's side, and it is hilarious. All international students who graduate from a two-year college will get green cards!
(People with PhDs don't get green cards now.)
Wasn't he supposed to be the anti-immigrant president? Everyone will be coming here now."
Why is the concept of a regulated border and legal immigration so illusive to so many?
Where are you from?
Papers, please.
Are you a criminal? (If your country of origin won't release that information, you can't come in.)
Can you support yourself, or do you have a sponsor here who will take responsibility for your support?
Do you have any communicable diseases?
Do you have skills that we need or want?
Where will you go, and where will you live?
Do you have a job lined up, or are you self-sufficient, i.e., wealthy?
Are you pregnant?
And so on....
Did you even glance at the OP?
Of course I did. It is full of rationalization and even lies. For example, the sentence: "Letting migrants work immediately and developers build new housing would simultaneously bolster the US economy and reduce anti-immigration sentiments caused by seeming burdens on city budgets." Seeming burdens on city budgets? Those burdens are real, and enormous.
They make out as if Biden was tough on illegal immigration, but his administration's policies actually facilitated it, as with the CBP One App.
Sigh. For the third time in this very thread, we have someone who is unable to tell the difference between asylum seekers and illegal immigrants. (Hint: the App is only for the former.)
"Sigh. For the third time in this very thread, we have someone who is unable to tell the difference between asylum seekers and illegal immigrants. (Hint: the App is only for the former.)
That's not true, David; I know very well the difference between asylum seekers and illegal immigrants. The problem is that the current administration takes asylum applications and paroles people into the U.S., and the liklihod that they appear for their hearings is vanishingly small, making them illegals.
In addition, you are wrong about the app being only for asylum seekers. Do some simple research!
"The CBP One app is a free tool that allows users to:
- Schedule appointments: Noncitizens can use the app to schedule appointments to present themselves at U.S.-Mexico border land ports of entry.
- Apply for I-94s: Travelers can use the app to apply for and view their I-94s.
- Check wait times: Travelers can use the app to check land border wait times.
- Request humanitarian permits: Immigrants in Mexico can use the app to schedule appointments to seek a humanitarian permit that will allow them to enter the United States legally.
- Submit biometric information: The app can be used to submit biometric information for specific humanitarian parole processes.
- Make asylum claims: The app can be used to start the process of making an asylum claim. "
Everyone knows that those seeking entry who are stopped or caught will claim they are asylum seekers. It's 99.9% bullshit.