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Journal of Free Speech Law: "Free Speech on the Internet: The Crisis of Epistemic Authority," by Brian Leiter
A new article from the Daedalus (Journal of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences) Future of Free Speech Symposium.
The article is here; the introductory section:
Every society has mechanisms for inculcating in its citizens beliefs about the world, about what is supposedly true and known. These epistemological mechanisms include, most prominently, the mass media, the educational system, and the courts. Sometimes these social mechanisms inculcate true beliefs, sometimes false ones, and most often a mix. What the vast majority believe to be true about the world (sometimes even when it is not) is crucial for social peace and political stability, whether the society is democratic or not. In developed capitalist countries that are relatively free from political repression, like the United States, these social mechanisms have, until recently, operated in predictable ways. They insured that most people accepted the legitimacy of their socioeconomic system, that they acquiesced to the economic hierarchy in which they found themselves, that they accepted the official results of elections, and that they also acquired a range of true beliefs about the causal structure of the natural world, the regularities discovered by physics, chemistry, the medical sciences, and so on.
Although ruling elites throughout history have always aimed to inculcate moral and political beliefs in their subject populations conducive to their own continued rule, it has also been true, especially in the world after the scientific revolution, that the interests of ruling elites often depended on a correct understanding of the causal order of nature. One cannot extract wealth from nature, let alone take precautions against physical or biological catastrophe, unless one understands how the natural world actually works: what earthquakes do, how disease spreads, where fossil fuels are and how to extract them. This is, no doubt, why both authoritarian regimes (like the one in China) and neoliberal democratic regimes (like the one in the United States) invest so heavily in the physical and biological sciences.
In the half-century before the dominance of the internet in America (roughly from World War II until around 2000), the most prominent epistemological mechanisms in society generally helped ensure that a world of causal truths was the common currency of at least some parts of public policy and discourse in the relatively democratic societies. There were, of course, exceptions: the panic over fluoridation of water in the 1950s is the most obvious example, but it was also anomalous. Even false claims about race and gender (that were widespread in the traditional media until the 1960s and 1970s) were met with more resistance from the pre-internet media, especially from the 1960s onwards. The basic pattern, however, was clear: social mechanisms inculcated many true beliefs about how the natural world works, while performing much more unevenly where powerful social and economic interests were at stake.
The internet has upended this state of affairs: it is the epistemological catastrophe of our time, locking into place mechanisms that ensure that millions of people (perhaps hundreds of millions) will have false beliefs about the causal order of nature—about climate change, the effects of vaccines, the role of natural selection in the evolution of species, the biological facts about race—even when there is no controversy among experts. Indeed, a distinguishing and dangerous achievement of the internet era has been to discredit the idea of "expertise," the idea that if experts believe something to be the case, that is a reason for anyone else to believe it. Experts, in this parallel cyber world, are disguised partisans, conspirators, and pretenders to epistemic privilege, while the actual partisans and conspirators are supposed to be the purveyors of knowledge.
Legal philosopher Joseph Raz's analysis of the concept of "authority" is helpful in thinking about what we mean when appealing to the idea of "authority" in epistemic contexts: that is, contexts in which we want to know whom we should believe when we seek the truth. An epistemic authority, on this account, is someone who by instructing people about what they ought to believe makes it much more likely that those people will believe what is true (that is, they will believe what they ought to believe, ceteris paribus) than if they were left to their own devices to figure out for themselves what they are justified in believing.
Suppose, for example, I want to understand the "Hubble constant," which captures the rate of expansion of the universe. I could try reading various technical articles in scientific journals to figure out what I ought to believe about it. It is unlikely I could make good sense of this material, given my lack of background in the relevant mathematics and astrophysics. Alternatively, I could consult my University of Chicago colleague, astronomer Wendy Freedman, an eminent scientist who has done seminal work on the Hubble constant. I am confident Freedman is an epistemic authority about the Hubble constant and cosmology generally, vis-à-vis me; I am more likely to hold correct views about these matters by attending her lectures (for undergraduates no doubt) than if I tried to figure these matters out for myself.
Why am I confident that she is an epistemic authority? It is obviously not because I have undertaken an evaluation of her research and published results, something I am not competent to do (if I were, I would not need to consult an epistemic authority on this topic). I rely, rather, on the opinions of others we might call meta-epistemic authorities: that is, those who can provide reliable guidance as to who has epistemic authority on a subject. So, for example, in the case of Freedman, I am relying on the facts of her appointment as a university professor at a leading research university and her election to the National Academy of Sciences, as well as guidance from a philosopher of science with whom I have worked, and in whom I have particular confidence with regard to his meta-epistemic authority based on past experience.
Epistemic authority is always relative. Professor Freedman is an epistemic authority on the expansion of the universe vis-à-vis me, but would not have been vis-à-vis the Nobel laureate and cosmology expert Steven Weinberg, for example. Similarly, I am an epistemic authority on Raz's view of authority vis-à-vis my students and my colleagues, but not vis-à-vis Leslie Green, Raz's student who recently retired from Raz's chair at Oxford. Epistemic authority is relative both to what the purported authority knows and what the subjects of the authority would be able to know on their own. Epistemic authorities, in short, help their subjects believe what is true (or more likely to be true), and without that help, those subjects would be more likely to end up believing falsehoods or partial truths.
Here is the crucial epistemological point: almost everything we claim to know about the world generally—the world beyond our immediate perceptual experience—requires our reliance on epistemic authorities. This includes our beliefs about Newtonian mechanics (true with respect to midsize physical objects, false at the quantum level), evolution by natural selection (the central fact in modern biology, even though it may not be the most important evolutionary mechanism), climate change (humans are causing it), resurrection from the dead (it does not happen), or the Holocaust (it happened). Most education in the natural sciences, apart from some simple lab experiments students actually perform, is a matter of accepting what epistemic authorities report is the case about the nomic and causal structure of the world. The same is also true of most education about history and the empirical social sciences.
The most successful epistemic norm of modernity, the one that drove the scientific revolution—empiricism—demands that knowledge be grounded, at some (inferential) point, in sensory experience, but almost no one who believes in evolution by natural selection or the reality of the Holocaust has any sensory evidence in support of those beliefs. Hardly anyone has seen the perceptual evidence supporting the evolution of species through selection mechanisms, or the perceptual evidence of the gas chambers. Instead, most of us, including most experts, also rely on epistemic authorities: biologists and historians, for example. (The latter, of course, rely in part on testimony from witnesses to the events they describe.) The dependence on epistemic authority is not confined to ordinary persons: most trained engineers, for example, rely on epistemic authorities for their beliefs about the age of the universe, just as most lawyers rely on epistemic authorities for their beliefs about who wrote the U.S. Constitution and why.
But epistemic authority cannot be sustained by empiricist criteria alone. Salient anecdotal empirical evidence, the favorite tool of propagandists, appeals to ordinary faith in the senses, but is easily exploited given that most people understand neither the perils of induction nor the finer points of sampling and Bayesian inference. Sustaining epistemic authority depends, crucially, on social institutions that inculcate reliable second-order norms about whom to believe; that is, it depends on the existence of recognized meta-epistemic authorities. Pre-collegiate education and especially the media of mass communication have been essential, in the modern age of popular democracy, to promulgating and sustaining such norms.
Consider one of the most important newspapers in the United States, The New York Times, which, despite certain obvious ideological biases (in favor of America, in favor of capitalism), has served as a fairly good mediator of epistemic authority with respect to many topics. It has provided a bulwark against those who deny the reality of climate change or the human contribution to it; it has debunked those who think vaccinations cause autism; it gives no comfort to creationists and other religious zealots who would deny evolution; and it treats genuine epistemic authorities about the natural world—for example, members of the National Academy of Sciences—as epistemic authorities. Recognition of genuine epistemic authority cannot exist in a population absent epistemic mediators like The New York Times.
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If he think AGW belongs in that list, he’s pretty gullible.
This includes our beliefs about Newtonian mechanics (true with respect to midsize physical objects, false at the quantum level), evolution by natural selection (the central fact in modern biology, even though it may not be the most important evolutionary mechanism), climate change (humans are causing it), resurrection from the dead (it does not happen), or the Holocaust (it happened).
Everything else is pretty conclusive; settled, as they say. AGW has far too many liars and frauds backing it. One only need count how many times polar bears and penguins have gone extinct, snow and Arctic ice have disappeared, and all those tipping points have tipped to be just a little wary of “epistemic authorities”.
ETA that every AGW enthusiast is going to call me a climate denier idiot. Please. The question is about “epistemic authorities”. If you can’t address that question, you aren’t responding to my comment or this article.
Here: respond to all these failed predictions.
https://extinctionclock.org/
If he think AGW belongs in that list, he’s pretty gullible.
Notably all of the examples that he gives in fact steal significant bases epistemologically speaking and then he laments that non-elites are allowed to think for themselves about these things rather than blindly accept “elite authority” the way he does.
The fact of climate change, for example, is pretty empirical, while the human contribution is still something that is the subject of widespread controversy, even among climate scientists.
The fact of biological evolution is pretty empirical, while the extent to which natural selection is the only or even central driving force doesn’t have quite as strong a consensus behind it.
Bodily resurrection is almost certainly not a physical possibility and has never been empirically observed, but it’s pretty ignorant to suggest that this is the only conception of resurrection in circulation.
And to touch the untouchable, yes even the Holocaust. Of course it happened, and I’m not particularly interested in arguments over the exact number of Jews killed vs. other groups, but we all know these arguments exist and aren’t, in fact, empirically resolved.
This article is an apologia for a vacuous brand of elite authoritarianism, combined with a big dollop of butthurt that the proles are finally able to air their own erroneous views about things.
And of course, how could I forget the bit about Newtonian Mechanics?
“True with respect to midsize physical objects, false at the quantum level?”
See – this is why blindly accepting authority rather than trying to understand for yourself is folly. Newtonian Mechanics works at all levels. It needs tweaking at some levels, and is non-responsive at some levels, but “false” it is not, in any circumstances.
Sure, you can do the math of Newtonian mechanics on quantum particles. But you’ll get the wrong answer.
You’ll get a non-responsive answer, because quantum particles aren’t things of a type that Newtonian mechanics describes.
What exactly is the point of calling a wrong answer “non-responsive”? The fact is, you can run the calculations, get answers, and they’re wrong.
Newtonian mechanics is like Euclidian geometry: A limiting case of whatever the actual physics are, that’s close enough to accurate at the human scale, but increasingly inaccurate as things get smaller, or faster and more massive.
Newtonian mechanics is like Euclidian geometry
Correct. Neither one is wrong. Both are limited in scope, as any and every theory, and hence all knowledge, is by nature. The mathematical descriptions of things on the quantum level also don’t work for things at the astronomical level. Which, again, does not render them “false.”
Correct. Neither one is wrong.
Well, there are at least three responses to this:
1. Sure, Newtonian mechanics is bounded by a limited scope – but that scope was only imposed upon it after the fact. Newton himself would not have agreed that his mechanics only apply to ‘macroscopic’ particles (if he had known about such things). He believed at the time that his equations of motion were universal. So Newtonian mechanics, as Newton described it, is false.
2. Akshually, Newtonian mechanics *does* work on a quantum level – if you ‘reinterpret’ Newtonian concepts like force and momentum, in terms of quantum-mechanical concepts. See the Ehrenfest Theorem if you are truly interested. But again Newton had no idea about these things, so we can say his mechanics are true even in the manner that he described it if we give him an enormous benefit of the doubt. Certainly a brilliant man like Newton is an excellent candidate for such a thing, it just depends on how generous you want to be.
3. Newtonian mechanics are more than just a bunch of equations, they represent a particular way to view how particles move. In the Newtonian picture, if you know a particle’s initial position and momentum, and you know all of the forces acting on the particle, you can – in theory – predict its future location and position throughout all eternity. This deterministic picture was completely shattered by quantum mechanics, which says that such predictions are inherently false and we cannot know the future position and momentum of the particle with any arbitrary certainty. So from this point of view, Newtonian mechanics is not just false, it is extremely false even for macroscopic particles because the fundamental physical picture that Newtonian mechanics rests upon is hopelessly flawed.
He believed at the time that his equations of motion were universal.
This is incorrect. He knew full well that there were phenomena that his equations didn’t describe accurately.
And this is part of the whole point. It doesn’t really matter what Newton thought. It matters that his equations accurately describe observed phenomena.
Akshually, Newtonian mechanics *does* work on a quantum level – if you ‘reinterpret’ Newtonian concepts like force and momentum, in terms of quantum-mechanical concepts.
Yes, just as his equations also work on an astrophysical scale, if you modify them to incorporate the speed of light, which there’s no reason for Newton to have done given what his equations were describing.
This deterministic picture was completely shattered by quantum mechanics, which says that such predictions are inherently false and we cannot know the future position and momentum of the particle with any arbitrary certainty.
Or you could just say “the equations designed to describe the motions of particles don’t describe the motions of things that aren’t particles.”
So from this point of view, Newtonian mechanics is not just false, it is extremely false even for macroscopic particles because the fundamental physical picture that Newtonian mechanics rests upon is hopelessly flawed.
Incorrect. Nothing above the quantum scale stops behaving in a “Newtonian” fashion simply because Newton’s equations don’t describe the behavior of things that are neither particles nor waves.
The polite phrasing is to say that Newtonian mechanics is incomplete.
But as Roger Penrose is fond of saying, incomplete just means wrong.
The Flat Earth theory is incomplete in exactly the same sense as Newtonian mechanics, for example.
But as Roger Penrose is fond of saying, incomplete just means wrong.
And Penrose is wrong.
Do we have a theory of anything anywhere that is “complete”?
No.
As a matter of fact, we can prove that no theory can be “complete.”
Thus, in Penrose’s formulation in which “incomplete” = “wrong,” all theories are wrong, which is true enough, but insofar as it is true, it tells us exactly nothing about one theory vs. another. Einstein’s equations ultimately are more accurate than Newton’s, but in most applications Einstein’s equations achieve a level of accuracy that is irrelevant, and also still “incomplete.”
The Flat Earth theory is incomplete in exactly the same sense as Newtonian mechanics, for example.
Correct, and the Flat Earth theory has explanatory power in certain contexts. If I’m calculating the path of projectile that’s going to travel a few hundred feet, I don’t bother including the Earth’s curvature in the calculation – I use the Flat Earth theory.
A theory is only as good as it is useful, but use-value is not “Truth.”
“Yes, just as his equations also work on an astrophysical scale, if you modify them to incorporate the speed of light”
That’s not really true: If you try calculating orbits based on Newtonian physics using the speed of light as a propagation speed for gravity, the result is unstable orbits.
And orbits ARE unstable: They very gradually decay due to energy being lost to gravitational waves. But if you use special relativity, the relativistic corrections ALMOST compensate, rendering orbits stable under almost all circumstances not involving objects in close orbits at nearly the speed of light.
But if you use special relativity, the relativistic corrections ALMOST compensate, rendering orbits stable under almost all circumstances not involving objects in close orbits at nearly the speed of light.
So. . . what you’re saying is that Newton’s equations work with some modification, but even with the modifications they’re still incomplete?
Newtonian theory is not a set of equations, rather it is a description of reality from which equations can be derived to describe certain phenomena. Similarly Aristotle’s mechanics is a description of reality from which motion can be derived to explain motion in a fluid. While the theories allow one to derive empirically adequate equations for given domains, the underlying theories are incorrect (they allow one to derive predictions that are inconsistent with observations). Newton’s predictions of Mercury’s orbit, the deflection of star light by the sun, and time dilation of a clock flying on a plane are wrong. Aristotle’s prediction of a feather and hammer falling to the surface of the moon is wrong. This is different from being incomplete. Quantum theory is incomplete, but thus far has passed all it’s empirical tests swimmingly.
I think you’re missing the point here a little bit.
On some level, we all have to “blindly accept elite authority” for topics that are outside of our empirical sensory range.
Here is a chemistry example: Astatine is the rarest naturally occurring element on the planet. By some estimates, there is less than one ounce total on the entire planet. So if you wanted some empirical proof that this element actually exists, good luck trying to get it. So for pretty much every human being on the planet, *including most chemists*, the only way they know that astatine exists is because some authority figure told them so. Is this a logical fallacy of “appeal to authority”? The appeal to authority is only a fallacy if the authority figure is the ONLY source for a particular claim. In the case of scientific phenomena, the authority figure telling the world about the existence of astatine is not basing this claim based on the mere fact of this person’s existence, but because there is a historical record of its discovery that the authority figure is capable of reviewing and understanding and transmitting to the wider world. And it is the same for virtually all of the ‘facts’ that we accept as true.
So what happens when no one believes the authority figure anymore? Does astatine cease to exist?
I think that’s one ounce of francium, and less than one gram of astatine.
Of course, I’m taking somebody’s word for it.
Of course, I’m taking somebody’s word for it.
^ This is how it’s done.
So for pretty much every human being on the planet, *including most chemists*, the only way they know that astatine exists is because some authority figure told them so. Is this a logical fallacy of “appeal to authority”?
Yes, if, as you say, “the authority figure is the ONLY source for a particular claim.”
But, as you also say, “the authority figure telling the world about the existence of astatine is not basing this claim based on the mere fact of this person’s existence, but because there is a historical record of its discovery that the authority figure is capable of reviewing and understanding and transmitting to the wider world.”
One could also demonstrate according to existing tested theory how the existence of astatine is consistent with, nay necessitated by, that theory (which is why people were looking for it before it was found), and for the same reasons we could also extrapolate that it would be rare.
If I can explain these things to someone else such that they believe what I’m saying (remember this article is about making sure we citizens believe the right things), then I have become the local authority in that person’s mind.
If that person then goes to a third person and says “what Square said is true,” then that person is appealing to authority.
So what happens when no one believes the authority figure anymore? Does astatine cease to exist?
What happens when a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it? Is there some reason Joe Sixpack needs to believe in astatine?
Why do I believe science? Because it’s replicable.
The problem is, I’m aware that, increasingly, breathlessly announced scientific findings turn out to NOT be replicable. So, rationally, my confidence in modern science is declining.
I think the problem is that scientific funding is directed too much at generating new results, and too little at checking on new results to see if they’re real. The research that guided Alzheimer’s research since 2006 turned out to have been fabricated, billions in drug research wasted because nobody checked those findings.
We need to make checking findings, and finding problems with them, as profitable and glory making as making novel findings. Somehow. Or science is going to continue declining for lack of self-correction.
Why do I believe science? Because it’s replicable.
Exactly.
I think the problem is that scientific funding is directed too much at generating new results, and too little at checking on new results to see if they’re real.
I couldn’t be more in agreement. On the bright side, it seems worst in the least relevant “sciences.” The Alzheimer’s boondoggle is a big one, but since there were billions of dollars involved, that one did get subject to correction, eventually. The Theory of Relativity is tested every moment of every day because there’s so much value there. The social sciences, on the other hand. . . .
… aren’t really science at all.
But science *is* self-correcting – on a long-enough timescale. That is part of the problem when we all observe the scientific process happen in quasi-real-time. A giant misconception out there is that a published paper in a journal represents the final draft of scientific discovery. It is not. It is just one more step along the way. And it may turn out to be an erroneous step, but we won’t know until someone else checks it out. There’s not really a need to have dedicated ‘error checkers’ – the problems are found when the next team of researchers try to use previous results to do some new thing, and realize that it doesn’t work because the previous results weren’t quite right. But this doesn’t happen overnight, it can take years and years.
Every major discovery in the modern era was accompanied by arguments back and forth, sometimes very heated ones, articles that tried to refute earlier work, which spawned new articles which tried to refute the refutation, etc., etc. It is only after this entire process has occurred, and the dust settles, is there a measure of scientific advancement – or not, if the new work ends up being unreliable. It is a nonlinear chaotic process. And it is up to all of us to understand broadly how this whole process works, so that when we see a news article with a headline like “New scientific results cast doubt on previous work”, it doesn’t necessarily mean that there was fraud, or that someone’s lying, or that the researchers are incompetent, or that Big Pharma/Tobacco/Government is deliberately trying to pull a fast one, or the news reporters are dumb (it *could* mean any or all of that, but not necessarily) – instead, most likely, it’s just the scientific process shaking itself out.
Sure, on a long enough time scale. In theory.
But if the garbage is accumulating faster than it’s cleared, eventually it all falls apart.
A giant misconception out there is that a published paper in a journal represents the final draft of scientific discovery. It is not. It is just one more step along the way. And it may turn out to be an erroneous step
Exactly. This is why the idea of “authorities” with gatekeeping power over knowledge production is fundamentally anti-science and anti-knowledge, hence my critique of this article’s presenting a series of unresolved controversies as good examples of areas where participation should be restricted to authorities who have privileged access to “Truth.”
This is the exact same mentality that tried to shut down Galileo and Copernicus.
Authorities and gatekeepers are distinct concepts.
Sure, but this article, and hence this discussion, is about the “need” for “gatekeeping authorities” to make sure citizens believe correct and true things. My comment to which chemjeff responded was pointing out that exactly this person’s examples of areas where we need gatekeeping authorities are in fact good examples of why we should reject gatekeeping authorities.
“Gatekeeping authorities” is not a concept that appears in the article.
From the article:
The assault on knowledge—and especially on who counts as an epistemic authority—has been dramatically exacerbated by the rise of the internet. The internet, after all, is the great eliminator of intermediaries, including, of course, those who determine who has epistemic authority and thus deserves to be heard and thus perhaps believed. This was always its great attraction for those previously excluded from public discourse. As cyberspace, however, with its lack of mediators and filters, has become a primary source of information, its ability to undermine both epistemic authority and, as a result, knowledge has become alarmingly evident: it magnifies ignorance and stupidity and is now leading millions of people to act on the basis of fake epistemic authorities and the fantasy worlds they construct.
He then goes on to approvingly quote a journalist praising the Sri Lankan government shutting down the internet:
In the early days of the internet, there was a lot of talk of how this was a good thing, getting rid of those gatekeepers. Well, they are gone now, and that means we need to have a global discussion involving all parties on how to handle the resulting disaster, well beyond adding more moderators or better algorithms.
He then goes on to lament what barriers the First Amendment and Section 230 of the Communications and Decency Act are to handling this “crisis,” arguing that both of these things need to be seriously amended in order to get the gatekeepers back and save people from the imminent threat of pervasive violence that free speech on the internet presents.
So, yes, “gatekeeping authorities” doesn’t just appear in the article, it’s the central topic, and the loss of them is the central crisis that the article laments.
This is the key phrase:
those who determine who has epistemic authority
This implies two sets of people: the authorities (who have epistemic authority) and the gatekeepers (who determine). You’re trying to roll them up into one concept and that’s a fail — the distinction between the two is important.
The article (and the discussion) are primarily about the absolute need for epistemic authorities. That’s not really debatable.
A corollary to the need for epistemic authorities is the need for people to be able to discover and evaluate epistemic authorities. The article is saying that gatekeepers are one solution to this, and yes, it laments that there’s currently no solution. But it doesn’t say or imply that gatekeepers are the only solution, just that a solution is needed.
I’m wondering whether you read the whole article or just the introductory section above.
This implies two sets of people: the authorities (who have epistemic authority) and the gatekeepers (who determine). You’re trying to roll them up into one concept and that’s a fail
Refer back to the comment you’re replying to:
Randal 4 hours ago
Authorities and gatekeepers are distinct concepts.
Square = Circle 4 hours ago
Sure, but this article, and hence this discussion, is about the “need” for “gatekeeping authorities” to make sure citizens believe correct and true things.
So, no, I’m not rolling them up into one concept, I’m specifically acknowledging that they’re two distinct things. I’m criticizing the notion expressed in this article that it’s dangerous not to have gatekeepers for authorities and pointing out that his very own examples of why we need gatekeepers are in fact good examples of why we should reject gatekeepers.
The article (and the discussion) are primarily about the absolute need for epistemic authorities.
No, the article asserts, as you do, that authorities exist by virtue of the very nature of the system of knowledge production, which I don’t think anyone disputes. The point of the article is that there’s an ongoing epistemic disaster in our polity because we’ve lost the gatekeepers that decide who is and who isn’t an “authority.”
That’s not really debatable.
And yet here we are debating it. Weird.
But it doesn’t say or imply that gatekeepers are the only solution, just that a solution is needed.
No, it exactly does say that what we need is gatekeepers, and then goes on to evaluate the existing legal obstacles to achieving that goal, proposing expanding the definition of “imminent incitement to violence” to potentially get there.
I don’t get the sense that you and I actually disagree about much of anything here other than what this article is about.
Feel free to interpret my criticisms as being directed toward your (mis)use of the term “authorities,” which both the article and the discussion use to refer to epistemic authorities, not gatekeepers, rendering comments like this one very misleading:
This is why the idea of “authorities” with gatekeeping power over knowledge production is fundamentally anti-science and anti-knowledge, hence my critique of this article’s presenting a series of unresolved controversies as good examples of areas where participation should be restricted to authorities who have privileged access to “Truth.”
Especially since the point the person you were replying to was making was that
we all have to “blindly accept elite authority”
which you now agree is beyond dispute.
Feel free to interpret my criticisms as being directed toward your (mis)use of the term “authorities,”
I get that, believe me, but you’re equivocating on the word “authority.” People who have expertise in a certain field can be termed “authorities” in that field. People who have gatekeeping power over who does and who doesn’t get to express on opinion on a given topic can also be termed “authorities” without that being a conflation of the two concepts.
which both the article and the discussion use to refer to epistemic authorities, not gatekeepers
While you being willing to admit that the article does, in fact, discuss gatekeepers, where you previously said it didn’t, is definite progress, I’m not sure why you keep insisting that I’m conflating these two concepts when I’ve tried again and again to make clear to you that these are two different things, i.e. subject-matter-authorities and authorities-over-who-gets-to-speak.
I am therefore unclear on what is misleading about the statement that “the idea of “authorities” with gatekeeping power over knowledge production is fundamentally anti-science and anti-knowledge.” I’m happy to clarify anything you find ambiguous here.
Especially since the point the person you were replying to was making was that we all have to “blindly accept elite authority” which you now agree is beyond dispute.
I said no such thing.
What I said was “authorities exist by virtue of the very nature of the system of knowledge production, which I don’t think anyone disputes.”
I’m struggling to find the part where I said we have to blindly accept authorities.
“Consider one of the most important newspapers in the United States, The New York Times, which, despite certain obvious ideological biases (in favor of America, in favor of capitalism), has served as a fairly good mediator of epistemic authority with respect to many topics.”
Well, yes and no. How often have you seen an article[1] saying “New Study Says Coffee Bad For You”, followed in a few months by “New Study Says Coffee Good For You”, followed in a few months by “New Study Says Coffee Bad For You”, rinse and repeat.
My sense is that several decades ago when ‘science’ said X, X was in fact actually true; new discoveries weren’t widely broadcast unless replicated, professors weren’t facing grant pressure to rush to publish, and NYT reporters weren’t bird dogging preprints for the latest click bait article on coffee.
People believed in science because when you heard ‘science says X’, it was likely a conclusion well vetted enough that it wasn’t going to be contradicted in a few months; you could take it to the bank even if it seemed fantastic.
But after a few decades of ‘study says coffee good/bad/good/bad/good/bad’, it’s no wonder ‘study says’ has lost a lot of it’s truth value.
[1]in the NYT or anywhere else; it’s a problem with every outlet. I’m not slamming any individuals or particular media outlets; they are all under the gun to rush to publish.
A nice current example:
https://reason.com/2024/10/16/we-were-wrong-to-panic-about-secondhand-smoke/
I think that first paragraph you quoted is an excellent self-own. Selecting being pro-America and pro-capitalism as the NYT’s signature ideological biases puts the Prof deep into la-la land.
The whole piece smacks of outrage at lese-majeste. How dare these oiks trample on my cherished received opinions !
Studies have also gone back and forth on water fluoridation. There is still legitimate disagreement about its value. I could not figure out why he says fluoridation is a good example.
There is no legitimate disagreement.
Really?
“The NTP monograph concluded that higher levels of fluoride exposure, such as drinking water containing more than 1.5 milligrams of fluoride per liter, are associated with lower IQ in children. The NTP review was designed to evaluate total fluoride exposure from all sources and was not designed to evaluate the health effects of fluoridated drinking water alone. It is important to note, however, that there were insufficient data to determine if the low fluoride level of 0.7 mg/L currently recommended for U.S. community water supplies has a negative effect on children’s IQ.”
https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/assessments/noncancer/completed/fluoride
Each of the three sentences in your brief excerpt of that article prove my point. Thanks for such an overwhelmingly clear example, I couldn’t have done better myself.
My sense is that several decades ago when ‘science’ said X, X was in fact actually true; new discoveries weren’t widely broadcast unless replicated, professors weren’t facing grant pressure to rush to publish, and NYT reporters weren’t bird dogging preprints for the latest click bait article on coffee.
Well, yes and no. Here is an example. The modern atomic theory, that matter is composed of atoms, was first formulated in 1800, by Dalton. But it remained “just a theory” until the early 1900’s, with the work of Boltzmann. And of course it got modified along the way (discovery of isotopes so not *every* atom of an element is identical, etc.) So one of the cornerstones of physical science, that matter is composed of atoms, was argued over and debated for over 100 years. But most of the world was not even aware of these debates, they were confined to the academy. So when WE all now learn about the atomic theory, it is presented as ‘unassailable truth’ that is the product of ‘science’. But if we had been a witness to the development of the atomic theory, along with real-time updates on the latest findings year after year after year, for 100 years, we would be forgiven for becoming cynical and skeptical of the whole thing. And what we are seeing now, such as with anthropogenic climate change, is the real-time development and debate over that theory. My point is that these arguments and back-and-forths and studies that come out one year saying one thing, and then the next year a new study contradicts the previous study – that is how the whole scientific method is supposed to work. Nothing fundamental has really changed about the science or the scientific method, what has changed is how we perceive its evolution.
Max Planck had it right – new orthodoxies replace old ones not as a result of duel-by-rational-argument but by the old guys dying off.
As the saying goes, science proceeds one funeral at a time.
My sense is that several decades ago when ‘science’ said X, X was in fact actually true…
Your sense is incorrect. Science has always been like this.
Yes, that is correct. What has changed, is that now we are all observers to the messy chaotic process which is the actual ‘scientific method’, not the one taught in elementary school. There have always been studies, and counter-studies, and refutations of studies, and refutations of refutations, over and over again, for years and years and years, until a consensus emerged about a particular phenomenon. The science that we learn in elementary school, is the result of this whole process. But when it comes to issues of current controversy, such as climate change, we are right in the middle of the process. That a new climate model contradicts a previous climate model is not proof of fraud or deceit or ill will, it is just one more step along the very, very long path towards understanding the climate.
An epistemic authority, on this account, is someone who by instructing people about what they ought to believe makes it much more likely that those people will believe what is true
Sure, but that’s because that person understands and can explain the subject matter in a coherent way that may get you to understand it as well.
If you then go around saying “x is true, because Dr. so-and-so said so,” you are appealing to authority, which is still a logical fallacy even if you find it distasteful to have to hear ignorant folks expressing incorrect ideas online.
Man you’re deep into your philosophical psychobabble! I feel like I’m trapped in a late night dormatory bong session.
Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. But a negligible number of people’s beliefs are supported by logic. (If they were, everyone’s beliefs would be the same.)
Appeal to authority is an epistemic necessity.
Man you’re deep into your philosophical psychobabble!
You understand that this is a philosophical discussion about the nature of and relationship between truth, authority, and belief, correct? If it makes your head hurt, maybe you shouldn’t participate.
But a negligible number of people’s beliefs are supported by logic.
Believe me, I know.
Appeal to authority is an epistemic necessity.
Not really. But it is easy.
Not really.
Now that’s the bong talking.
I think it’s more accurate to characterize the appeal to authority as a pragmatic necessity.
But that’s not what this article is about. This article is about Truth vs. “what people believe” vs. “what people should believe.”
When you use a phrase like “epistemic necessity,” what do you really mean by that? Necessary for what? To not be an annoying douche in social situations? Sure. To figure out “Ultimate Truth,” whatever that means? Absolutely not – quite the opposite.
I mean that any search for truth in this life runs through authorities. Even just enough knowledge to survive.
Again, “search for truth in this life” and “enough knowledge to survive” are two completely different things, that are often in direct tension with one another.
A perfect example is the blatant lies we tell children to keep them from wandering off into the wilderness alone at night. Appeal to authority? Absolutely. Necessary for survival in this life? Absolutely. Getting us closer to “truth in this life?” Quite the opposite, and not even actually related to the immediate goal.
You seem to be wondering “How can I find out about the things I don’t understand?” and thinking “I know, I’ll figure it out for myself!”
That’s a dumb answer, but more crucially, it’s a dumb question. The better question is “How did I find out about the things I do understand?” And the answer is “from authorities” for nearly all of it. Whether that be parents, teachers, priests, friends, authors, peers, journalists, celebrities, or politicians, almost nothing you currently know is based on first-hand knowledge.
Unless you hold a PhD or a patent, you probably haven’t contributed anything new to the corpus of human knowledge.
The better question is “How did I find out about the things I do understand?” And the answer is “from authorities” for nearly all of it.
Incorrect. I’m a “trust, but confirm” type. If you tell me the sky is blue, until I see it for myself, my brain-note is “Randal says the sky is blue.”
Unless you hold a PhD
I do, in fact, hold a PhD, thanks for asking.
my brain-note is “Randal says the sky is blue.”
That’s nice, and proves my point. Remembering which authority gave you the knowledge doesn’t negate how you got the knowledge. It just means you know how you got it: from an authority.
That’s nice, and proves my point.
No, it’s actually you missing the point.
“Randal says the sky is blue” is an empirical fact.
“I know the sky is blue because Randal says so” is a logical fallacy.
Just because you may eventually forget that you believe something because an authority told it to you does not mean that the appeal to authority is therefore solid logic. It just means that people generally don’t question their assumptions when authority figures tell them to believe things.
Just because you may eventually forget that you believe something because an authority told it to you does not mean that the appeal to authority is therefore solid logic.
That’s what I’ve been saying. People’s beliefs aren’t based on logic. They’re based on authority for the most part, whether or not the person remembers the original source.
Or in other words, I’m not buying your line that you don’t really believe that Washington was the first president of the United States, you only believe some version of “My second grade, third grade, fifth grade, eighth grade, and 11th grade teachers, my US History professor, that History Channel documentary, Hamilton, and Rachel Maddow all told me that Washington was the first president of the United States.” That’s some intense bong-level sophistry.
That’s some intense bong-level sophistry.
Just as an aside, the ad hominem is another fallacy. Just sayin’.
People’s beliefs aren’t based on logic
Correct. What’s your point? That we should pretend that they are?
I’m not buying your line that you don’t really believe that Washington was the first president of the United States, you only believe some version of “My second grade, third grade, fifth grade, eighth grade, and 11th grade teachers, my US History professor, that History Channel documentary, Hamilton, and Rachel Maddow all told me that Washington was the first president of the United States.
Belief is a complicated topic, and this is exactly why it shouldn’t be governed by “epistemic authorities,” by which I mean both what you mean and the “gatekeeper authorities” that I’ve been talking about.
I do believe that Washington was the first President of the US. But I also have to ask myself why I believe that, if I’m striving to be a clear thinker. The reality is that it’s a conditional belief, but it’s an extremely well supported one, like the Holocaust happening. My teachers told me a lot about Washington, but oddly enough a lot of what they told me turned out to not actually be true. I’ve seen his signature on the Declaration of Independence. I’ve seen his portrait in galleries of past presidents. No one has any alternate account of who he was and what he did (well, except for the cherry tree thing and some other stuff).
It’s such a widely supported belief in fact that we don’t need gatekeeping authorities to say “people aren’t allowed to publish articles arguing that George Washington was not the first President.” People can totally publish articles arguing that Washington was not the first President. I would happily read such an article, in fact, and almost certainly wind up dismissing it is poppycock unless it really knocked my socks off.
This is why I find it particularly interesting that the examples of areas that are so desperately in need of . . . what? Not-gatekeeping? Not-censorship? Are areas that are no ways even remotely near the level of consensus of “George Washington was the first President.”
Some of them, like his assertions about Climate Change, are areas of significant and consequential controversy. To argue that discussion should be shut down at the whim of established authorities is, I say again, anti-science and anti-knowledge. I get that you’re not necessarily advocating this gatekeeping, but this article most definitely and unambiguously is.
All I said was that appeal to authority is an epistemic necessity and that the vast majority of people’s beliefs originate from epistemic authorities. It seems as though you’re coming around.
All I said was that appeal to authority is an epistemic necessity
With some insults tossed in for good measure, sure. But you said that in response to something, which was:
If you then go around saying “x is true, because Dr. so-and-so said so,” you are appealing to authority, which is still a logical fallacy
Is your argument that in practice people have to rely on authority to great extents and therefore it’s not a logical fallacy?
I’m very unclear on what it is you think I’m “coming around to.”
Is your argument that in practice people have to rely on authority to great extents and therefore it’s not a logical fallacy?
No. I was quite clear about that in that very comment:
In other words, the fact that it’s a logical fallacy is irrelevant to people’s dependence on it for knowledge. It just proves what we’ve both been saying: people’s beliefs are not, in general, rooted in logic.
In other words, the fact that it’s a logical fallacy is irrelevant to people’s dependence on it for knowledge.
It’s actually centrally relevant, in that what most people consider “knowledge” is based on fallacious reasoning. This is actually an argument against over-reliance on authority.
What is it that makes me suspect that you’re one of the people in one of these positions of authority, and thus you really don’t see any problem with silencing people who have incorrect views about things?
What is it that makes me suspect that you’re one of the people in one of these positions of authority, and thus you really don’t see any problem with silencing people who have incorrect views about things?
Where did this even come from? As far as I can tell we essentially agree. You seem very invested in being disagreeable.
As far as I can tell we essentially agree. You seem very invested in being disagreeable.
Holy shit you cannot be serious with this. I suggested long ago that we seem to essentially agree and you insisted on continuing to tell me that I’m wrong and hysterical, repeatedly insulting me while doing so. I’ve done nothing but be way more civil than you deserve, while in your very first response to me you accused me of being on drugs, which you continue to do, and you’ve repeatedly insinuated that I’m some MAGA guy with a hidden agenda when I really couldn’t be any more clear about what I’m saying.
Self awareness – not your strong suit.
“Believe me, I know.“
The funniest thing I’ve read today. What a weird thread.
The decay of epistemic authority is a problem, but the most important cause is not the internet enabling cranks and frauds. It is the corruption of the “epistemic elite”, who have damaged their authority by propagating frauds. The author cites “climate change” as an example of popular rejection of elite-verified truth.
I consider it as perhaps the most damaging corruption of the elite. Perhaps it is not a fraud, but if so, why do advocates of very costly “climate change” policies lie?
Thirteen years ago, in support of those policies, President Obama, then the most powerful man in the world, asserted “temperature around the globe is increasing faster than was predicted” and “the climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated”. Both of these statements were unquestionably false. No actual scientist would endorse them. But neither did scientists (other than the much scorned minority of “climate skeptics”) speak out against them.
Major problems have been identified in the collection of temperature data and in the mathematical models which predict future climate conditions. But the “scientific community” has closed ranks, condemning any disagreement with AGW “consensus” as “denialism”, as if the evidence for AGW was overwhelming as the evidence for Nazi genocide.
The great danger from this is the possibility that the epistemic authority of science will be so badly damaged that science itself collapses.
There are other areas where the “epistemic elite” says one thing and the “ignorant masses” see another. There are obvious correlations between ethnicity and criminal behavior, but the “mainstream” media systematically suppress any reports that demonstrates these correlations. “Who are you going to believe? Us – or your lying eyes?”
Some fifteen years ago, Charles Murray showed that of six population segments (defined in the General Social Survey as lower class, working class, middle class, technical middle class, upper class, intellectual upper class), five had become slightly more conservative over the previous 30 years, while “intellectual upper class” had become far more liberal. The trend line was straight and has probably continued.
“Epistemic authorities” are drawn from the “intellectual upper class”. When they all believe what no one else does – that way lies madness.
“Epistemic authorities” are drawn from the “intellectual upper class”. When they all believe what no one else does – that way lies madness.
Left to the no-doubt bemused judgement of the epistemically-curious reader is the question whether Rich Rostrom counts himself among the classes gone mad, or among the others.
Possibly he is like me, by credentials one of the intellectual upper class (raised Fifth Avenue NYC, Yale, Berkeley, 789 LSAT), but contrary and antisocial to the extent that I don’t like most other members of that class, and generally don’t believe anything they say.
Born, raised, and always lived in Chicagoland, degree from a second-tier state university, 1550 SAT (but that was 50 years ago), definitely not in the top 5% of incomes (GSS definition of upper class).
You have serious problems, Rich Rostrom!
President Obama, then the most powerful man in the world, asserted “temperature around the globe is increasing faster than was predicted” and “the climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated”. Both of these statements were unquestionably false.
Huh? Neither of those statements is remotely precise enough to evaluate for truth. This is like saying “New York’s best bagels!” is unquestionably false. Maybe so, but no one with a brain thought it was being offered for its literal truth in the first place. Do you fault nutritionists for not “speaking out against” the bagel shop?
Major problems have been identified in the collection of temperature data and in the mathematical models which predict future climate conditions.
No, problems have been suggested, not identified… and to the extent you’re faulting science for not being perfect, you’re offering up a strawman. There are always problems, and science — including climate science — is totally comfortable acknowledging and improving upon those problems. Climate models are way better now than they used to be. That’s a vindication of climate science, not an indictment.
There are obvious correlations between ethnicity and criminal behavior, but the “mainstream” media systematically suppress any reports that demonstrates these correlations.
Here you’re just delusional. Nobody suppresses that sort of data. Everyone loves it. The right loves it for justifying their bigotry. The left loves it as evidence of disparate impact and systematic racism. What are you even talking about?
A better example would be the suppression of evidence for innate differences between males and females — see e.g. Larry Summers. But even that has died down since 20 years ago.
“Epistemic authorities” are drawn from the “intellectual upper class”.
Hahaha that’s good comedy. You think college professors and scientists are in any sort of upper class? That’s rich (pun intended).
If you’re getting your epistemic authority from the “intellectual upper class” — Musk, Koch, Soros, Trump — you’re definitely doing it wrong.
Obama said on November 14, 2012,
“What we do know is the temperature around the globe is
increasing faster than was predicted even 10 years ago.”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/11/14/remarks-president-news-conference
Obama said on May 29, 2013,
“… we also know that the climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated five or 10 years ago…”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/05/30/remarks-president-dccc-event
I do not see how either of these statements is comparable to hyperbole in advertising.
As for identified problems in temperature data collection: here is an example. The British government’s Meteorological Office has a network of weather stations; data from these stations is regularly cited in support of “global warming”. The World Meteorological Organization rated almost 3/4 of these stations as Class 4 and 5 – the worst classes for data corruption by nearby heat sources. Almost 30% are Class 5, with measurement uncertainty up to 5°C.
https://dailysceptic.org/2024/08/13/junk-measuring-network-means-the-met-office-cannot-prove-dramatic-increase-in-temperature-extremes-and-records/
May 2023 Annual mean wage for
“Postsecondary Teachers”: $101,750
“All Occupations”: $65,470
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#00-0000
The British government’s Meteorological Office has a network of weather stations; data from these stations is regularly cited in support of “global warming”. The World Meteorological Organization rated almost 3/4 of these stations as Class 4 and 5 – the worst classes for data corruption by nearby heat sources. Almost 30% are Class 5, with measurement uncertainty up to 5°C.
This is a perfect example of a non-scientist misunderstanding science. This would only be a “problem” if it weren’t being accounted for. No scientific instrument is perfect, they all have tolerances. That doesn’t mean the data is useless, or that it taints the results. You just have to account for the error.
What are the current confidence intervals in the modeled Global Temperature? How accurate were past predictions of Global Temperature in retrospect, and when were the models used to compute Global Temperature validated (cites welcomed)? How is the “being accounted for” validated?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Inquiring minds want to know!
Then take a statistics class. Also, the slogan actually has a bit of a pun to it. Enquiring minds are the ones that want to know.
I do not see how either of these statements is comparable to hyperbole in advertising.
Allow me to elucidate. Imagine you wanted to verify Obama’s statements. Taken literally, they’re obviously false. But taken figuratively… well, how to you evaluate the truth of a figurative statement?
Exactly like advertising hyperbole.
Imagine you wanted to verify Obama’s statements. Taken literally, they’re obviously false
I’m not going to the mat for Rostrom, because the turn toward the “race realism” was kind of a gross move, but in fairness isn’t this exactly what he started out saying and that you said was wrong?
I didn’t say he was wrong that they were false. I said he was wrong to be focusing on their truth-value, since they weren’t offered for their literal truth, a fact which should be obvious to any human who has interacted with other humans in any context.
You said “Neither of those statements is remotely precise enough to evaluate for truth,” which is clearly untrue.
“New York’s best bagels” is 100% subjective.
“Temperature around the globe is increasing faster than was predicted”
is not. Were there existing predictions of how fast the temperature around the globe would increase? Yes. Climate scientists had been making those predictions for decades prior to Obama coming along and making this statement. Was temperature in fact increasing faster than was predicted? Absolutely not. It was, in fact, going much slower than was predicted (I mean, somebody somewhere probably predicted something slower, but let’s be honest about what the epistemic authorities were saying).
This isn’t rhetorical vagueness – it is lying about something specific and demonstrable.
“the climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated” is basically the same statement, which sidesteps the empirical fact that for the decade prior to Obama’s statement the warming was considerably less than what was standard wisdom in the mid-’90s.
You said “Neither of those statements is remotely precise enough to evaluate for truth,” which is clearly untrue.
Allow me to clarify. Taken as they were intended, as sentiments, not as literal scientific claims, neither of those statements is remotely precise enough to evaluate for truth.
“New York’s best bagels” is 100% subjective.
False. “These are my favorite bagels” would be subjective. “New York’s best bagels” is expressing the sentiment that these bagels are objectively really good bagels.
That sentiment can be wrong, but it can’t really be false. Imagine you and a friend went to that bagel shop and afterward your friend exclaimed, “Wow, that really was the best bagel in New York!” Would you think
a) Your friend has had every bagel in New York, and as such, is in a position to both interpret and confirm the slogan “New York’s best bagels” as being literally true, or
b) Your friend agrees with the sentiment expressed by the slogan that the bagels are really good?
Real people in everyday conversations are almost never making sequences of logically connected scientific claims intended to be taken literally. People speak in sentiments, metaphors, and value statements. You can agree or disagree with them, but they aren’t amenable to logical dissection the way a scientific paper or a philosophy diatribe might be.
“Temperature around the globe is increasing faster than was predicted.”
First of all, you left of the “We know that…,” which already puts the statement on a dubious, epistemic footing. But ignoring that… was predicted when? By whom? By everyone? Certainly not. By someone? Almost definitely. Without identifying a specific prediction, the statement can’t be sensibly taken literally. It can only be taken as a sentiment. Sure, you can disagree with it as a sentiment, you can argue that it’s wrong or misleading, but it doesn’t do any good to try to disprove a sentiment.
Remember, this goes back to Rich trying to blame scientists for not “speaking out against” Obama. But why would a scientist get involved in a sentimental argument with a politician? Probably every scientist tries something like that once and then quickly realizes the futility.
That sentiment can be wrong, but it can’t really be false.
This doesn’t even make any sense.
“Best Bagels,” if it’s going to be taken as an objective, verifiable claim, will have objective standards by which to judge that. I don’t know, maybe total rise, maybe moisture content, whatever. And then you can make verifiable statements and test them to get an empirical result.
Unverifiable statements are unverifiable and thus can’t be evaluated by objective standards. “These are the best bagels because I like them best” is subjective and can’t be falsified.
First of all, you left of the “We know that…,”
Ctrl-F “We know that” = 1 result – you just now. Where is it that I’m leaving it off of what?
Obama wasn’t expressing a “sentiment.” He was making an empirical statement about scientific research for political purposes and in the course of doing so he said things that are objectively quantifiable, checkable against past statements and wildly wrong.
Like I said, I understand that maybe someone, somewhere, at some point made some prediction of a warming rate that was lower than what had been empirically observed over the preceding decade, but to my point, this is not what the “epistemic authorities” of the time were saying, not by a long shot.
And it is still the case that pointing out the empirical fact that warming rates are consistently lower than the epistemic authorities have consistently said will get your ass gatekept in a heartbeat.
To that point, you can’t say “overwhelming scientific consensus” regarding catastrophic anthropogenic warming in one breath, and then say with the next that what Obama said wasn’t a lie because all kinds of different scientists had said all kinds of things about how fast or slow warming could have been expected to be and who really knew?
Hmm….
This is the situation with most real-world statements. People love stating sentiments and making value statements. They rarely make scientific or logical claims. We should paint the ceiling pink! Wrong, but not false. Tariffs aren’t like taxes. Wrong, but not false. Illegal immigration is an invasion. Wrong, but not false. Kamala’s policies are socialist. Wrong, but not false. Original public meaning is the best way to interpret laws. Wrong, but not false. Climate change is a hoax. Wrong, but not false.
You’re attempting to divide the world between “objective, verifiable claims” and “subjective” ones that “can’t be falsified.” That’s your fallacy. The vast majority of statements fall into neither bucket.
This cracks me up the most. You just argued that Obama’s statement was actually false… because it disagreed with elite opinion at the time. Lol oh lol.
We should paint the ceiling pink!
the climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated
These are not similar statements. The first expresses an aesthetic opinion. The other is a statement regarding the state of current science that is factually incorrect.
This cracks me up the most. You just argued that Obama’s statement was actually false… because it disagreed with elite opinion at the time.
No. I argued that Obama was lying when he made what he presented as a factual statement regarding what the epistemic authorities were saying that was the exact opposite of what those authorities were actually saying.
I in fact have already pointed out the empirically observable fact that those authorities were wrong, and was remarking on the irony that your claim that Obama was just expressing an untestable opinion relies on the authorities having been wrong.
These are not similar statements.
That’s correct. The first is a value statement, and the second is a sentiment. What they have in common is that they both purport to state an objective fact, but in a way that’s not falsifiable.
More similar would be “The climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated” and “Climate change is a hoax.” They’re both sentiments.
What they have in common is that they both purport to state an objective fact, but in a way that’s not falsifiable.
Obama’s statement is absolutely falsifiable. I really don’t understand why you keep insisting it isn’t. Are there factual claims in it? Yes. Are they false? Yes.
What am I missing?
Obama’s statement is absolutely falsifiable. What am I missing?
You’re having to supply a lot of your own inferences in order to turn Obama’s statement into a falsifiable one.
Again, remember the context: Rich’s claim that “scientists” are complicit for not “speaking out against” Obama. I’m saying that, particularly as scientists, they know better than to supply a bunch of their own inferences in an attempt to disprove a political sentiment.
It’s fine to say, with such and such inferences, which are justified for so-and-so reasons, Obama’s statement implies a bunch of misleading claims, and it’s therefore wrong. But that’s not a scientific argument about the statement’s logical truth-value. It’s just a standard sort of rhetorical counterargument. One that a scientist isn’t likely going to be inclined to make.
OK, just to tease out the implications of what you find yourself saying, you’re saying that “the climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated” and “climate change is a hoax” are both equally valid, totally subjective sentiments?
But do you realize that this article advocates forbidding one of these equally valid, totally subjective sentiments and not the other?
What do you think of that?
Like I said elsewhere, I don’t see where the article proposes forbidding any speech.
The closest it comes is an idea to expand defamation-style tort liability to include the possibility of damages for losses due to I guess any manner of knowingly false speech published with actual malice.
Do you think one of those statements is more likely than the other to be found by a judge or jury to have inflicted tortious damages on anyone? I’m not seeing it.
Like I said elsewhere, I don’t see where the article proposes forbidding any speech.
That’s weird, because elsewhere you do, but I’m noticing your stance is pretty variable depending on the rhetorical needs of the moment.
Do you think one of those statements is more likely than the other to be found by a judge or jury to have inflicted tortious damages on anyone?
Yes – the second. Even though it’s the first one that’s actually a falsifiable factual statement resulting in actual harms to actual people, but I imagine that that one would be given a pass by folks like yourself, the ones who know what ideas are acceptable and which aren’t.
That’s weird, because elsewhere you do…
Please feel free to point out where I said anything of the kind.
I imagine that that one would be given a pass by folks like yourself, the ones who know what ideas are acceptable and which aren’t.
It’s pretty funny that you think I’m some sort of misinformation Nazi (I am not) after you got so butthurt about me calling you MAGA. But anyway… even if I were, we’re talking about tort cases, which are decided by the courts. You think the courts are also biased against you? You’re starting to sound like Brett.
after you got so butthurt about me calling you MAGA
I pointed out that it was rhetorically dishonest of you, which it is. I don’t really care what names you call me, as evidenced by how many times you’ve insulted me over the course of this conversation without getting a reaction out of me.
we’re talking about tort cases
No – you’re talking about tort cases. I’m talking about this article wringing its hands about misinformation on the internet and what “We” as intellectual elites can do to combat it given the constraints imposed on us by that pesky First Amendment.
You think the courts are also biased against you?
What makes you think “Climate Change is hoax” is my position? You just can’t imagine someone critiquing your thoughts who isn’t a MAGA Republican?
Are you really pretending not to see that the elites in our society tolerate, nay encourage, one of these two lies, and argue that the other is dangerous and actionable misinformation?
Please feel free to point out where I said anything of the kind.
Randal 4 hours ago
He pretty much agrees with you in his last paragraph. Which makes me wonder why he wrote the article in the first place. If we could trust the censors, we could just have censorship, we wouldn’t need the elaborate schemes he described… which anyway require trusting the censors.
Is this you and the author of the article questioning the need for censorship? Or is it you spitballing by what processes we could have censorship even though we can’t necessarily “rely on” the censors and we can’t legally censor because of the First Amendment but maybe we could try other tactics?
No – you’re talking about tort cases. I’m talking about this article wringing its hands about misinformation on the internet and what “We” as intellectual elites can do to combat it given the constraints imposed on us by that pesky First Amendment.
And one of the key suggestions it gives is… wait for it… tort cases.
I’ve been trying to have a conversation about the article as written. You’ve been trying to have a conversation about the article in your mind. It’s very tedious.
Is this you…
It’s clearly me pointing out that the whole article is rendered incoherent and unnecessary by its own final paragraph.
And one of the key suggestions it gives is… wait for it… tort cases.
You now admit that the actual overarching point of the article is that “we” need gatekeepers to combat misinformation on the internet, which is the thing I’m critiquing, and now you’re implying that I’m doing something dishonest by not letting you change the subject to one of the proposed strategies under the pretense that that’s what the article is about.
I’ve been trying to have a conversation about the article as written.
No. You’re doing the exact opposite of that. Why, I don’t know, but there it is.
You now admit that the actual overarching point of the article is that “we” need gatekeepers to combat misinformation on the internet…
That’s the premise of the article. My new theory is you only read the first half. The second half is the proposed solutions, which includes torts, but does not include, for example, forbidding the expression of viewpoints.
If you only want to talk about the first half, that’s fine, but then let’s not entertain your fantasies about the second half. Read the second half if you want to know that the article proposes to actually do.
You think college professors and scientists are in any sort of upper class?
I’ve been involved in higher education in one way or another for about 20 years. College professors and scientists are consistently not paid as much as they feel they should be, but they absolutely, overwhelmingly are drawn from what most of us think of as the “upper class.”
They’re from that class that’s fond of saying “I’m not rich – my parents are.”
I don’t think of a $101k salary as upper class. Maybe you, Rich, and Charles have a different idea of upper class than I do.
But such an expansive conception of “upper class” somewhat weakens the argument that all these people are affluenza victims.
I don’t think of a $101k salary as upper class
You didn’t read what I said. Do you want to know why I gave up pursuing an academic career? Well, lots of reasons really, but a big one was that I don’t have rich parents and I couldn’t afford to tread water for a decade pulling $50k a year in the hopes that I might someday land a job paying $101k, relying on my parents to back me up on my expenses.
These are luxury jobs, not careers for people who actually need to earn a living.
This sounds more like a Brett or David conspiracy than anything. “The problem with professors and scientists is that they’re all secretly super-rich!” That’s a pretty lame take, I’m sorry to tell you.
“The problem with professors and scientists is that they’re all secretly super-rich!” That’s a pretty lame take, I’m sorry to tell you.
I’m relieved, then, that that’s not actually what I said.
You seemed stunned at the suggestion that the professoriat is drawn from the upper classes. I pointed out to you that they, as a general rule, are in fact from the upper classes. Now you’re shifting gears and deciding that, well okay they are generally from the upper class, but that I’m wrong for thinking there’s a problem with that.
No, I’m still saying you’re wrong that they’re generally from the upper classes.
Unfortunately on that one you’re up against my own empirical observations, so you’re going to have to do better than that. I understand that everyone in America thinks of themselves as middle class, and all my fellow grad students who were born with silver spoons in their mouths all thought of themselves as middle class in that those spoons weren’t gold.
Doesn’t change the fact that at least when I was in grad school there was widespread talk of how unfortunate it was that only the super-privileged could realistically pursue an academic career. They tended to be very excited that I, the son of a mechanic, was trying, and how refreshing it was to have different perspectives, but not enough to actually give me a job.
Tenure-line academics at research universities are indisputably part of the “upper class” and disproportionately drawn from high income households. The average assistant prof earns about $100k/9mos. If you are in STEM and in track for tenure, you are also getting a month or two of summer salary, so tack on say 15%. If you’re in the humanities/social sciences, you are probably teaching a bit in the summer. So $115k is not a bad estimate for one’s total take just starting out. That puts one in the 83rd percentile. 15yrs in, the average is closer to $185k including summer which places one in the 93rd percentile…decidedly not middle class.
Of course class isn’t just about income.
You guys are simply using a different definition of “upper class” than I’m used to. I’m more familiar with the Wikipedia definition, in which someone who measures their income primarily in terms of salary is automatically not a member. 🙂
In other words, if your livelihood depends on having a job, like Professor or Scientist, you’re not upper class.
What we need for pure internet sites (perhaps not only them) is tortious liability for harm that a reasonable person would see as a foreseeable consequence of speech they knew or should have known was false.
That ventures dangerously beyond what is needed. It would generate so much legal activity that the effort would collapse for want of judicial capacity to cope with the lawsuits. It would also encourage enemies of epistemic authority to invoke government interventions. There would be no end of efforts to get government to prescribe specific expressive content, or to forbid specific expressive content. Both results would be catastrophic for expressive freedom. Government content regulation cannot be the solution.
Leiter does say however that repeal of Section 230 is necessary. There he gets right both the problem and the remedy. Leiter simply fails to anticipate how far-reaching that one remedy will turn out to be.
Absent Section 230, publishers, including internet publishers, would be under a practical obligation to read everything contributed prior to publication. The formal requirement, and the goad to honor it, would be the threat of joint liability, shared among publishers and contributors. If innocent third parties suffer unjust damages on account of false defamations, then publishers must suffer their fair share of liability for the damage their publishing activities caused.
That much Leiter no doubt understands. What he fails to foresee is the salutary changes to the epistemic ecosystem that come nearly automatically, once prior editorial review for libel of would-be contributions is in place.
When a publisher takes on an obligation to read before publishing, the commitment to do it opens horizons to use that effort for other virtuous purposes, at almost no additional cost. More generally, it turns epistemic strengths into tools available at trivial added cost to gain business advantages.
Publishing is fundamentally about assembling and curating audiences. Audiences in general prefer to invest their attention effort in sources which offer epistemic reliability. Thus, use of private prior editing—if required alike among all publishers, so none is burdened more than others—becomes a means to put epistemic control of content on the basis of private free enterprise. If publishers get business advantages on the basis of prior editing—and if they all must do prior editing alike, they do all get those advantages—then private business competition can be made to do the work of government intervention—and do it far better, and less dangerously.
To make that insight into virtuous public policy may require a bit more than just repeal of Section 230, however. It also requires public policy to encourage an orders-of-magnitude increase in diversity and profusion among private publishers. That implies elimination of current market advantages in advertising sales which attend the platform giantism encouraged by Section 230. So long as the platform giants control the market for advertising sales, attempts to start new publishing businesses to compete with the giants remain nearly hopeless.
To encourage publishing profusion requires getting the giants out of the way. Repeal of Section 230 will go far to accomplish that, but maybe not far enough, given the institutional and economic advantages the giants now wield. It would be wise to start with repeal of Section 230, with an eye to review later what else might be needed.
For instance, there may also need to be restrictions on algorithm-driven content steering. That results in each reader getting content tailored to whatever personal quirks the reader has disclosed to a surveilling algorithm.
Epistemic integrity implies, as a common nostrum insists, that everyone may be entitled to his own opinion, but no one is entitled to his own facts. Thus, publishing practices to foster epistemic virtue are encouraged to the extent they broaden audiences. And epistemic virtue is defeated, if for ad sales purposes a publisher narrows its practices to deliver millions of different publications, to millions of different algorithmically-derived audiences, each audience comprising one person only.
That does not mean, however, that niche audiences, and publications dedicated to serve them, and compete with each other on that basis, need to be ruled out. It is more about the way the sales effort works, than about the content.
Click bait, tailored to recruit attention regardless of the epistemic integrity of what is delivered, has played a major role to undermine content quality in internet publishing. By contrast, if a publisher can assemble a content-specific, or opinion-specific niche audience, and serve that audience comprising even modest numbers alike with information to hold their attention, that will typically lead to more-reliable epistemic outcomes. So public policy to make that happen may also be required.
Note that nothing about any such policy needs to address any specific question of content. It is all about encouraging epistemic quality by broadening audiences using the very tools publishers used for centuries prior to the internet—tools to curate audiences with an eye to encouraging advertising sales on the basis of generalized audience characteristics.
There is a natural connection between that business method and the generalized public perception of epistemic truth. It was on that basis that private publishing thrived, while also serving diverse epistemic virtues, for literally centuries prior to invention of the internet.
The wisdom needed now is to see that the virtue of the internet is not to be found in abolishing older commitments to epistemic virtue, nor in driving advertising to the lowest possible price no matter what else suffers in consequence. Wisely used, the virtue of the internet will turn out to be three-fold:
1. Opportunity to diversify and multiply expressive opportunities for everyone;
2. While making the cost to do it far less than in the days of ink on paper publishing;
3. Without sacrificing the epistemic integrity on which the public life of the nation depends.
Very important topic, and a crisis, as one can see from the comments.
Is it worth it to be part of a web site that is a big part of the problem? Aren’t you making the problem worse? Or is it better to fight this kind of mentality from within?
What is the problem, exactly? Can you be specific?
The very fact that you ask that marks you as part of the problem.
The best example is global warming, the overwhelming scientific consensus for years yet denied by an immediate flood of commenters. It seems to be more a problem in the United States than in other western democracies. Probably because of Fox News and other determinedly biased media. At this point the entire Republican Party is enslaved to misinformation, for example as to who won the 2020 election.
Look, there’s an overwhelming scientific consensus that the globe is gradually warming, and a somewhat less overwhelming consensus that it’s due to atmospheric composition changes. (There are additional factors that could be contributing.)
It could hardly be otherwise, we’re coming out of a glacial period, and without the greenhouse effect this planet would be an ice ball. It’s BEEN an ice ball at times even with the greenhouse effect.
That said warming is dangerously large, on net bad, is NOT the subject of an overwhelming scientific consensus. And that claim is what’s driving the policies people are fighting over.
Bellmore, I will leave to you to discern the inherently circular reasoning your critique applies.
Instead, let me challenge you in a related way. Has it occurred to you that warming climate might turn out to be a trigger to set off an ensuing ice age? Can you imagine a mechanism to make that happen?
Here is a hint to get you started: in North America, the inland ranges of the Rocky Mountains are mostly notably colder than their coastal counterparts at similar latitudes. Those once-heavily-glaciated inland ranges are almost entirely ice free now.
On the other hand, the northwest coastal region of North America remains both warmer, and relatively heavily glaciated. What explains that? You ought to be able to come up with an answer to justify speculation whether continued warming could touch off an ice age.
Note that the answer to that challenge is so obvious it can hardly qualify as an enigma, or even as an apparent paradox.
Sure, it’s possible that global warming might trigger the next episode of glaciation. It’s equally possible, and a bit more intuitive, that it has been delaying that next episode, and the glaciers would already be on the march by now if not for humans dumping CO2 into the air.
We don’t know; The climate system is too complicated to have confidence in that sort of modeling. The best we can do is not tank our economies, and have a good menu of geoengineering options, so that we have control over both the accelerator AND the brake.
That said warming is dangerously large, on net bad, is NOT the subject of an overwhelming scientific consensus. And that claim is what’s driving the policies people are fighting over.
What a sly little dodge you’ve put in there!
I think it is generally accurate to say that the science is still developing, in terms of evaluating just what global warming will result in. More rain? More droughts? More coastal flooding? A striking amount of this is not known with a great deal of certainty. So, sure, it’s reasonable to say that on net, we don’t know whether the bad changes will outweigh the good ones, in terms of weather patterns, temperature levels, etc. (Though ocean acidification seems to be a serious problem that may be catastrophically, systemically bad, and not easily addressed except by means that are themselves understudied at the required scale, no matter what might happen to snowfall in the Himalayas.)
But what there does seem to be consensus on is the fact of change, perhaps dramatic change, across regions. Saying, “humanity will still be able to feed itself somehow” is one thing; it’s quite another to say that “entire economies will have to reform themselves around new weather patterns, as agriculture shifts from places where the same crops and animals have been raised for centuries to new areas, and existing cities and infrastructures will either need to be abandoned or repurposed accordingly.”
It is maybe a fool’s errand to think that we’ll find a way to slam the brakes on CO2 pollution across the globe, sufficient to stop a warming trend that is already reaching thresholds that are expected to result in dramatic changes. But it’s no less foolish to embrace what’s sure to be a chaotically disruptive transitional period, confident only in the knowledge that we do not yet know that we’ll come out the other side worse off.
I’m a Lomborgian here. Global warming is both real, and not a big deal relative to the damage that would be done by proposed cures. I think it would be worth while investing in geoengineering research, and ocean iron fertilization looks to be an actually profitable way to sequester CO2. Nuclear power is the obvious thing to replace coal with, since unlike solar or wind it’s actually reliable.
“Though ocean acidification seems to be a serious problem that may be catastrophically, systemically bad, and not easily addressed except by means that are themselves understudied at the required scale, no matter what might happen to snowfall in the Himalayas.”
You might want to look at the research on that. It turns out coral aren’t nearly as sensitive to the ph of ocean water as people thought. They just don’t take well to sudden changes.
unlike solar or wind it’s actually reliable
Where did this bizarre talking point come from? It’s not like you hook your stereo up directly to your wind turbine. Wind and solar are just as reliable as oil (and more reliable on longer timelines)… assuming you have sufficient storage capacity. Which is a built-in assumption. Because no one is hooking their stereos up directly to their wind turbines.
Yes, solar and wind plus utterly uneconomical levels of storage could, in principle, be just as reliable as oil without uneconomical levels of storage. I think you have never looked at a serious study of just how much freaking storage and over-capacity is necessary to boost solar or wind reliability up to the same as conventional sources. (By serious I mean a study that doesn’t assume frequent brownouts as a normal part of life, as most such studies do.)
For solar, because the Sun DOES at least come up every day, about 12 hours storage is enough if you over-build your solar capacity enough to compensate for the fact that, on an overcast day, you might only be getting 10% of the rated capacity of your solar panels.
So, cool: Solar can be reliable with 12 hours storage and 10 fold over-building. Does anybody do that? No.
Nobody is actually using those utterly uneconomical levels of storage, they’re just idling the reliable plants to use them as backup for when the wind stills, or the sun goes down.
the overwhelming scientific consensus for years
I’ll ask the same question of you that I ask of everyone who asserts this.
What is the “overwhelming scientific consensus” and how do you know what this consensus is?
What views are the evil Republicans expressing that you feel should be forbidden because they’re against “overwhelming scientific consensus?”
Who said anything about forbidding anyone from expressing views?
Did you read the article? Or the comment that I was responding to?
Yes. Neither said anything about forbidding the expression of views.
See my response to you above where you say this article isn’t advocating having gatekeepers and isn’t about forbidding the expression of certain views. Because it goes into some detail about what a problem the First Amendment is to the project of making sure the proles believe the right things.
Maybe Captain Crisis up there is just casually observing what a crisis it is that people are allowed to express disagreement with “overwhelming scientific consensus,” and that’s why I asked him to be more specific about what he sees “The Problem” as. He suggests that the problem is that Republicans are allowed to speak, but in fairness, he wasn’t being all that clear.
He really doesn’t come across as someone who is here championing free speech, but maybe I’m misreading.
You’re once again confusing concepts. Even if he were calling for a gatekeeper, which he isn’t, gatekeepers don’t forbid the expression of views. They gatekeep exposure, not expression. That is, they operate on demand, not on supply.
Nobody (other than you) is talking about restricting the supply of views. This whole thing is about reducing the demand for malicious or negligent views.
They gatekeep exposure, not expression
Well that’s a relief, that I’m allowed to speak my mind as long as no one can hear me.
This whole thing is about reducing the demand for malicious or negligent views.
And how do you accomplish that, exactly, without gatekeepers silencing views they don’t approve of?
And did you not read the part of the article that goes into detail about the legal strategies that might be employed to silence people?
And how do you accomplish that, exactly, without gatekeepers silencing views they don’t approve of?
Uh, the normal ways? Do you think the New York Times prints every letter to the editor? Are they “silencing the views” of the authors of the letters they don’t print?
This whole thing where you think you have a right to force your opinions onto people is a totally new MAGA myth and not at all what free speech is about.
Uh, the normal ways? Do you think the New York Times prints every letter to the editor? Are they “silencing the views” of the authors of the letters they don’t print?
Again, that’s not at all what this article is about. This article doesn’t just approve of the NYT model of “not publishing every letter,” it argues that the whole internet needs to be restricted in that same way, arguing that institutions exactly like the New York Times (name-checked in the article as one of the proposed authorities) need to retain their power to decide who does and doesn’t speak and that power needs to be extended over the entire internet.
Do you agree with that? If not, I’m not sure why you keep arguing with me. If you do, I’d like you to stop pretending you don’t.
This whole thing where you think you have a right to force your opinions onto people is a totally new MAGA myth and not at all what free speech is about.
And don’t do that – it’s gross.
Do you agree with that?
I don’t agree with it as policy, but I don’t think it’s properly characterized as “forbidding the expression of views” or “silencing the views” of anyone. As I said, that’s a very new idea that sprung from MAGA’s complaints about social media moderation — not sure why that’s “gross” of me to mention — and it’s a huge departure from the First Amendment. There was a time when the Internet didn’t even exist. Do you think everyone’s views were being silenced back then because they didn’t have an Internet to shout them into?
I don’t agree with it as policy
I’m glad.
As I said, that’s a very new idea that sprung from MAGA’s complaints about social media moderation
No, it isn’t, it’s a very old complaint, and I’m very much not a MAGA guy.
not sure why that’s “gross” of me to mention
Because you’re doing an ad hominem and politicizing the conversation at the same time, making an explicit appeal to tribalism in order to demonize my argument.
Do you think everyone’s views were being silenced back then because they didn’t have an Internet to shout them into?
If I outlaw all newspapers except the NYT, am I not violating anyone’s free speech rights because people didn’t have newspapers prior to 1486?
This article is not about allowing the NYT to moderate its comments section. It’s about extending NYT’s moderation power to the whole internet, globally.
To respond as if I’m making some kind of MAGA demand to be allowed to be a dick in other people’s comment sections is a strawman and, again, kind of a gross one.
If I outlaw all newspapers except the NYT, am I not violating anyone’s free speech rights because people didn’t have newspapers prior to 1486?
You’re violating the newspapers’ free speech rights, but that’s it. You’re not violating the rights of potential letter-to-the-editor authors.
Are you complaining that the proposals in the article would forbid the expression of Google’s and Facebook’s views? I would agree with that probably… but… I feel like that’s not really what you’ve been concerned about.
You’re violating the newspapers’ free speech rights, but that’s it. You’re not violating the rights of potential letter-to-the-editor authors.
Only if you’re starting from a base assumption that only “newspapers” have a right to publish, as if “newspapers” were a thing that predated the printing press. Forbidding all newspapers except one harms everyone’s rights, not just those of those that pre-existed printing in some metaphysical way.
I’m really shocked that I have to explain this in this day and age.
Are you complaining that the proposals in the article would forbid the expression of Google’s and Facebook’s views?
No, more that the article advocates allowing Google and Facebook to forbid the expression of views anywhere on the internet that they deem unworthy of expression.
but… I feel like that’s not really what you’ve been concerned about.
And what is it that you think I’m really concerned about, aside, of course, from what I’ve said again and again and again?
I was starting from the assumption that you were attempting to analogize your newspaper ban to something in the article, the closest being
I agree with you, if the government were to ban newspapers generally, or websites generally, that would harm the free speech rights of anyone who wanted to publish a newspaper or a website, which is potentially anyone. But I don’t see anywhere that the article proposes such a thing.
But I don’t see anywhere that the article proposes such a thing.
From the article:
Like the Roman Republic’s provision for dictatorial powers, such emergency shutdowns should be temporally limited: in the case of internet sites, say, one week, subject to judicial review of a requested extension. One thing we know is that time cools passions.
A better approach to filtering would reduce the number of places on the internet that offer incitement in the first place. This would require a significant change to First Amendment jurisprudence in the United States, which is particularly permissive. My proposal here would apply only to what I call “pure” internet sites. It would involve, in the first instance, creating analogs of existing “fighting words” and “incitement to imminent illegal action” doctrines under American constitutional law. By “pure internet sites,” I mean websites that do not have analogs in the traditional (or “legacy”) media—print (like The New York Times), radio (National Public Radio), television (CNN, ABC, Fox)—and that do not involve serious gatekeepers, who review content for defamation, accuracy, vulgarity, and so on. For these pure internet sites (such as blogs, webzines [some of which pretend to have editors], X, Instagram, and Facebook), I suggest that we apply the familiar categories of “low value” speech, but without their temporal conditions.
Fighting words, as the Supreme Court famously said, are words that “by their very utterance, inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace.” In the case of pure internet sites [i.e. not “legacy” sites], this would mean words that would, in real life and real time, inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace are forbidden. So, too, for incitement to unlawful action, the test would be: whether these words, if said “in front of the corn dealer’s house” (that is, a temporal context ripe for incitement) would lead to illegal action, in which case they would be forbidden. Stripping out the real-world temporal requirement is justified by the wide reach of the internet, and its potential to trigger not only the normally incitable, but the highly incitable as well. The internet constitutes a “virtual reality,” as is often said, so it deserves “virtual” fighting words and “virtual” incitement doctrines. This
would no doubt shut down a lot of internet ranting, but the loss to well-being (even accounting for the unhappiness of ranters) would be minimal. It seems plausible that those who want to spout “fighting words” would be less likely to do so in actual
reality than in the virtual one. It is hard to see how this is an overall loss to society’s well-being.
Yet none of the preceding, even if it would help with the risk of incitement and ensuing violence, would touch the problem of false information—about vaccines or false COVID-19 cures—that are peddled continuously on the internet (though not only there). Here is where the United States would require a fundamental rethinking of First Amendment doctrine and how it treats harms caused through the mental or intellectual mediation of a hearer/reader.
Yeah. Nowhere in all that text is there a suggestion to “outlaw all newspapers” or websites.
There’s the suggestion to temporarily block some specific sites that I mentioned above.
There’s a suggestion to extend the “fighting words” doctrine to better account for the asynchronous nature of the Internet.
And there’s a suggestion to expand tort liability to cover additional classes of knowingly false statements beyond defamation.
Fighting words and defamation are already “forbidden” “over the entire Internet.” And those categories are defined by law, not by any “gatekeepers,” and they don’t stop anyone from publishing a newspaper or website… as long as it’s not like only-defamation.com or whatever.
So like, is your voice being silenced because you want to preserve your ability to use the existing legal loopholes in order to publish fighting words on the Internet which would be illegal to say in person? Seems like you’re searching pretty hard for something to complain about. I don’t get it.
In just the same way you’re flailing trying to avoid admitting that Obama lied when he said global temperatures are rising faster than anyone predicted, you’re deliberately ignoring the clear meaning of the language in the article and the obvious implications of the argument.
It explicitly says that all that you mention doesn’t go nearly far enough in silencing “scientific misinformation,” including, explicitly, regarding Climate Change.
It, again, explicitly argues for a two-tiered approach to allowing information sharing online, favoring “establishment” sources over the arbitrary category of “purely online.”
And then you again rest on the fallacious questioning of my motives in order to cast doubt on what I’m saying, which frankly is a bad faith move, as I already pointed out.
Not sure what to do with you at this point other than to say good day, having come to the conclusion that you’re not actually here in good faith, but appear to be just another political partisan playing games on the internet.
In just the same way you’re flailing trying to avoid admitting that Obama lied
I don’t know or care whether Obama lied, is the reason for that. You claim he lied, and you could be right. I haven’t expressed an opinion one way or the other. Does that bother you?
you’re deliberately ignoring the clear meaning of the language in the article and the obvious implications of the argument.
Perhaps the implications of the argument aren’t as obvious as you thought they were. In fact you seem to think so yourself in your much soberer assesment today. I see you’ve backed off your own claim that the article proposes “forbidding” some viewpoints “across the entire Internet.”
Yes, it proposes a two-tier system, but that doesn’t forbid any viewpoints. Yes, it identifies lots of viewpoints that it thinks are toxic, but it doesn’t suggest or imply forbidding them. You have yet to point out anywhere that the article proposes to forbid viewpoints.
And then you again rest on the fallacious questioning of my motives in order to cast doubt on what I’m saying…
Ok, what are your motives for continually misrepresenting the article?
I don’t know or care whether Obama lied, is the reason for that. You claim he lied, and you could be right. I haven’t expressed an opinion one way or the other.
Randal 2 days ago
You have serious problems, Rich Rostrom!
President Obama, then the most powerful man in the world, asserted “temperature around the globe is increasing faster than was predicted” and “the climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated”. Both of these statements were unquestionably false.
Huh? Neither of those statements is remotely precise enough to evaluate for truth. This is like saying “New York’s best bagels!” is unquestionably false. Maybe so, but no one with a brain thought it was being offered for its literal truth in the first place. Do you fault nutritionists for not “speaking out against” the bagel shop?
This is not an opinion on whether or not Obama lied? You proceeding for the rest of the day to deny that “the climate is warming faster than anybody anticipated” is a falsifiable statement? Mkay.
Does that bother you?
No – what bothers me is the consistent dishonesty and bad faith debate tactics hiding behind this “hey, I’m just a guy making observations!” façade.
Like when you say things like “Nowhere in all that text is there a suggestion to “outlaw all newspapers” or websites,” which is not a claim I actually made but was a hypothetical response to your assertion that if people are forbidden from having their own websites that their free speech rights aren’t actually being violated.
Now you’re switching arguments again and pretending that you’ve always acknowledged that the article is advocating having elite gatekeepers for information dissemination on the internet, but that that’s not the same as outlawing newspapers, and that therefore I’m mischaracterizing the article, even though that’s not something I ever said.
Keep in mind that not that long ago you were asserting that the article doesn’t even mention gatekeeping, which I at first thought was just you not reading carefully and shooting from the hip with your argument, but now I’m starting to suspect deliberate dishonesty after having watching you twist and turn and tie yourself in knots to pretend you don’t understand what this article is saying, and then turning around and admitting that it does, in fact, say exactly what I said it says, but that it’s a good thing, actually.
Now I fully expect that your response will be to again misrepresent what I’m saying and to reiterate that this article doesn’t say something I never said it did.
Ok, what are your motives for continually misrepresenting the article?
Aaand we’re done here. You’re slick, but the bad faith tactics just aren’t working for you today. Better luck next time!
This is not an opinion on whether or not Obama lied?
No, as I’ve explained to you three times already, it’s an opinion on whether Obama’s statement was inaccurate from a scientific / logical perspective, as Rich was suggesting. It isn’t. But it could still be intentionally grossly misleading, which would qualify as a lie.
It’s quite easy to lie without saying something logically false. Trump is an expert in that art, for example. But just like it’s hard to pin Trump on his slippery statements, it would be stupid for scientists to have tried to disprove Obama’s.
Are you agreeing with Rich, that climate scientists are complicit in Obama’s alleged lie for not having challenged him on it? If not, then what?
Now you’re switching arguments again and pretending that you’ve always acknowledged that the article is advocating having elite gatekeepers for information dissemination on the internet, but that that’s not the same as outlawing newspapers, and that therefore I’m mischaracterizing the article, even though that’s not something I ever said.
No, I’m arguing what I’ve always been arguing. The article is advocating having elite gatekeepers for information dissemination on the Internet, but that’s not the same as forbidding the expression of viewpoints, and that therefore you’re mischaracterizing the article.
Keep in mind that not that long ago you were asserting that the article doesn’t even mention gatekeeping…
No, and again, we covered this already. (This is why I think you’re stoned, you seem to have no memory at all. Even an AI is better at maintaining conversational state.) I said the article didn’t have a concept of a “gatekeeping authority” — a phrase you introduced in quotation marks even though it appears nowhere in the article — because it has two distinct concepts, the gatekeepers and the epistemic authorities. I never said it doesn’t mention gatekeepers at all.
No, as I’ve explained to you three times already, it’s an opinion on whether Obama’s statement was inaccurate from a scientific / logical perspective, as Rich was suggesting. It isn’t.
No, you’ve asserted three times already that a specific, quantifiable statement about the state of science and the empirical data behind it is not in fact a specific, quantifiable statement about the state of science and the empirical data behind it.
But it could still be intentionally grossly misleading, which would qualify as a lie.
Yes. “Grossly misleading” as in “presenting a statement as scientific fact when it is the opposite of the truth.”
Glad you’re finally coming around on this.
It’s quite easy to lie without saying something logically false. Trump is an expert in that art, for example.
Funny how this hypothetical statement from Trump is definitely false and a lie, but a specifically wrong factual statement from Obama is like expressing an ice cream preference – who could know whether it’s right or wrong? Can standards of accuracy and logic even be applied, really?
The article is advocating having elite gatekeepers for information dissemination on the Internet, but that’s not the same as forbidding the expression of viewpoints, and that therefore you’re mischaracterizing the article.
So what is it that you believe these elite gatekeepers are going to actually be doing to curb misinformation on the internet?
And I don’t understand why later in this same comment you say “I said the article didn’t have a concept of a “gatekeeping authority” when you just now asserted that “The article is advocating having elite gatekeepers for information dissemination on the Internet.” I mean, you contradict yourself that baldly all over the page, but doing so in the very same comment is just sloppy.
Your attempts to twist my words are pretty empty when anyone can just scroll up to see what I actually said. Anyhoo, there’s nothing new in your response that I haven’t already answered.
Your attempts to twist my words are pretty empty when anyone can just scroll up to see what I actually said.
That’s funny, because at so many points in this conversation I’ve thought to myself “does this guy think we can’t see his previous comments?”
I’ve quoted your direct words in every case that I’ve disputed something you said, and I provided the direct language from the article that you insist on misinterpreting. If I’ve misrepresented anything you’ve said, please be specific about it, because after so long of having you claim I said things I didn’t say and claim the article doesn’t say things it does say, I’m curious how you’re going to repackage this to make yourself the victim.
What’s your stake in defending this guy, anyway?
What’s your stake in defending this guy, anyway?
Well, it all started when you proposed this rather vile strawman:
At the risk of time becoming a loop, I’ll repeat what I said then: nobody, not the commenter, the article, nor anyone else is suggesting that any viewpoints, Republican or otherwise, should be forbidden to express. Except maybe Trump, who keeps threatening the broadcast licenses of the networks who say things he doesn’t like. And perhaps Republican legislatures, who are busy banning books, gagging teachers, and prohibiting performances that they find distasteful.
Mistrust surged with the Vietnam War and Nixon’s Watergate.
I also blame the authorities, who mistook their mandate to inclulate to include indoctrination, leading to the politicization of education and the media. It does not include that power. Indoctrination is an abuse of power.
The public has ample reasons to mistrust authorities. It is an unfortunate side effect that they disbelieve common facts about nature. The cure it to restore trust by depressing politicization in education and the media.
Go back one more step and start blaming government itself. It is little more than a massive monopolistic coercive bureaucracy. Bureaucracies shrink only from outside pressure — markets.
Governments are better than anarchy only in having one set of thugs in control. But don’t blame this or that particular set of thugs — blame the institution which enables and encourages thugs.
What caused mistrust to surge was that communications became cheap enough that people didn’t have to get their information through choke points controlled by the authorities.
It used to be that if the authorities agreed on a line to take, they could largely suppress disagreement, by creating the illusion that everybody agreed with them. If Walter Cronkite said that was the way it was, who was in a position to contradict him and be heard?
If you held views the authorities didn’t like, you were shouting into the void, and you wouldn’t hear people who agreed with you. Even if a lot of people agreed with you, you thought you were part of a tiny minority.
It’s called preference falsification.
Then communications got cheap enough that people who held common views the authorities didn’t like DID hear the people who agreed with them, and suddenly realized that they weren’t a tiny minority after all. Preference falsification broke down.
And with the authorities no longer controlling the choke points, not only did people find out their views were popular, they found out about things the authorities wanted them ignorant of. They realized the authorities wanted them ignorant. Instant distrust, and merited, too.
All well and good, but the next thing that happened was search engines, and social media that was custom curated to show you want you wanted, and suddenly people were hearing too much from folks who agreed with them. People who genuinely were outliers started to get the idea that they were really the majority, because most people they communicated agreed with them.
And things get really ugly when every viewpoint thinks it’s the majority, and gets mad that those uppity outliers act like THEY are the majority. And when a justifiably distrustful public is suddenly drowning in an ocean of cheaply disseminated lies.
But I don’t know what we do about that, I just know that I don’t want to go back to the authorities successfully gaslighting everybody into thinking everybody else agrees with the authorities.
A shockingly cogent analysis from you, Brett.
But I don’t know what we do about that…
We do nothing. It’ll sort itself out. Not many people want to be misled. They’ll learn how to navigate new media and separate the trustworthy from the charlatans. New, reliable epistemic authorities will emerge.
This happens with every new medium. Remember when every asshole had a pamphlet? Locke, Paine, Hamilton… talk about oceans of disinformation! These days if somebody randomly hands you a pamphlet on the street it’s probably the last thing you’d trust. This is something that societies are good at learning. It’s happening already — just look how much less weird q-anon garbage there’s been this election year compared to the last two.
It’s true that not many people want to be misled, but it was true back when Cronkite could unironically state “And that’s the way it is” without fear of (heard) contradiction. It didn’t much matter that they didn’t want to be misled, they weren’t being given a choice in the matter.
The former choke points of communication are being replaced by choke points revolving around search and platform moderation. It’s becoming increasingly hard to find content that Google doesn’t want you finding, that Facebook doesn’t want you sharing.
I really think we need to restore the former radically decentralized model of the internet, get away from monopolistic platforms. If choke points exist, they will ALWAYS be used.
The radically decentralized Internet is still there, Google and Facebook didn’t take anything away. But you do have to make the effort to battle your laziness and scootch around the chokepoints.
Yeah, you can force people to use censored media, or you can just make it so easy to that a controlling majority don’t bother doing anything else. Then the fact that a minority of the people actually know something doesn’t matter.
You don’t NEED something to be known to nobody, so long as you can arrange for it to be difficult enough for new people to learn it from the people who already know, that the chain reaction dies out instead of snowballing. 100% censorship has never actually been necessary.
It turns out that “good enough” censorship just requires that you censor “free” means of communications, because too few people will try to work around it for it to matter.
Congratulations, you’ve figured out that it’s always difficult to ensure that the epistemic authorities are actually authoritative. I’m sure you’d enjoy a deep dive into the ins and outs of Wikipedia.
This is an inherent problem. Is Google more trustworthy than Walter Cronkite? Probably more so in some ways and less in others. The trick is to set up the rules and institutions such that the incentives point towards trustworthiness.
There actually are approaches to making platforms reliable. Look at the “community notes” function on X; It uses a technique pioneered some years ago, where you algorithmically scan to generate clusters of contributors who tend to agree with each other, and then promote comments that are agreed to across, rather than within, clusters.
Things and contributors get uprated for being agreed to by people who usually disagree, rather than crudely on the number of people who agreed.
The problem is that if you’re running a platform with a lot of users, doing something like that requires giving up some of your capacity to warp public discourse in directions you like. And not a lot of people running platforms are willing to sacrifice that power.
And not a lot of people running platforms are willing to sacrifice that power.
I find this to be an odd thing to say. For one thing, I don’t see any reason for this to be true:
doing something like that requires giving up some of your capacity to warp public discourse
The algorithm you described is just as manipulable as any other.
But more than that, my sense is that the platforms find moderation to be quite unsavory. It’s an unfortunate business necessity as even Musk has discovered, not something they enjoy. It causes them no end of problems because it’s the sort of thing that can only generate negative sentiment. The goal of moderation is simply to minimize negative sentiment, especially among advertisers.
If these guys were in it to influence public discourse, they’d buy a media outlet… like Bezos did.
Finally, we’re talking about epistemic authorities here. I don’t think social media platforms themselves will ever be epistemic authorities. At least, I hope not. That’s not really what they’re good at. They function better as the modern equivalent of tabloids than of newspapers.
That is not in fact true. Lots of people do want to be misled. They want to be told what they want to hear, not what’s true.
To an example that is entirely out of the realm of politics: as a lawyer I routinely have to offer legal opinions to clients. E.g., telling them whether they’re allowed to do X, or whether they have a viable suit against someone who did Y, or whether a particular argument they are enamored with is one we should make to the court. A significant percentage of those clients want exactly one answer to each of those questions. If you give the wrong answer, they get mad at you. They don’t want an informed legal analysis; they want to be misled.
I think it’s more accurate to say that they want a particular thing to be true than that they want to be misled.
Of course, telling people that the things they want to be true are in fact true is a guaranteed path to their hearts.
It could be ‘preference falsification’.
Or it could be, that the ‘gatekeepers’ of the past did a pretty good job separating the wheat from the chaff, but as those gatekeepers largely have vanished, it now falls upon all of us to do that separating. And pretty much none of us have the tools or expertise to be able to do so reliably for every major topic of import. And also, since we are all busy people with lives of our own to live, and we don’t have the time to go research each topic in enough depth so as to become a competent enough authority to make an informed decision on each of these topics, most of us instead just defer to “common sense” or “gut feeling” or “what my friends think”. And this process ‘works’ in the sense that it resolves internal controversy or angst about what the correct point of view ought to be. Easier to just ‘go with the flow’. But it does not necessarily lead to the correct outcome in terms of understanding objective reality.
It’s perfectly capable of being a mix of both; People are naturally going to consider notions contrary to their own interests or views to be “chaff” regardless of their truth value, so they may accurately sort out the chaff where it’s in their interest to be accurate, or they’re simply disinterested, but not where they have a stake in the matter that runs contrary to accuracy.
Bellmore, gatekeepers are valuable because fences are indispensable. Without the fences, nobody gets to keep livestock securely. Pretty soon, the animals scatter themselves everywhere, and commence the quick journey back to undomesticated status as game animals, preyed upon alike by wild predators and human opportunists.
I remain a more enthusiastic fan of wilderness than most who comment here, but even I do not think the nation’s public life should devolve into a wilderness. You example the reason why. You literally display the mentality of a sheep separated from its flock, alone in a wilderness, simultaneously complacent in action, but perpetually terrified.
Ideas are not livestock.
His point was not that ideas are livestock, but that you are.
Granted, livestock accustomed to grazing on cultivated ideas, and but now forced to graze on wild ideas and in a continual stage of discomfort at the prospect.
My god what an unbelievably arrogant and yet simultaneously stupid thing to say.
Is it the dawn of a new dark age? Where fact is drowned in a sea of shit? It is ironic that unfettered access to the entirety of human knowledge leads here, or is it inevitable (or both)?
So many questions, yet this much is known,
Gatekeepers cry as the gates are thrown down.
The good old catholic church reacted almost identically when the bible was translated from Latin and made available in print to almost everyone. They also claimed epistemological irreplaceable expertness and claimed it a grave danger for people to think and communicate their own (wrong!) thoughts. The interpretation of the bible was the science of the day.
Whenever “the science” is invoked in the media at large it is about power and politics, not science. No one really cares how much francium is out there.
Anybody claiming epistemological primacy / supremacy is a priest, a manufacturer of narratives about what and how the world is, what one needs to do or not do, what is good and what is bad.
This piece is part of a large campaign to justify control of the latest communication platforms by the current priesthood class. It is the equivalent of arguing for control of the printing presses by the catholic church.
I thought this was a libertarian blog.
Person who thinks actual subject matter expertise can be replaced by guys doing their own research doesn’t bother to do his own research. Film at 11.
It says on top: “Often libertarian”. Guess I took the founder at his word.
Why the need to be insulting online to people you don’t know?
You trust your experts, I guess. Good luck wearing your mask outdoors and feeling righteous about it.
So I read the entire article.
This is the genteel, well-polished, intellectual side of totalitarianism talking. Leiter — whose work I generally respect — is affirmatively shilling for the bad guys now.
Historically, his sorts of oh-so-reasonable arguments have been employed to justify repression that has led to mass murder on an industrial scale.
In other words, the very argument that he employs is actually an argument for shutting him up and not allowing him to say the sorts of things that he is saying here in this article.
I take it Kant would be displeased with this. I know that I am.
He pretty much agrees with you in his last paragraph. Which makes me wonder why he wrote the article in the first place. If we could trust the censors, we could just have censorship, we wouldn’t need the elaborate schemes he described… which anyway require trusting the censors.
If we could trust the censors, we could just have censorship, we wouldn’t need the elaborate schemes he described… which anyway require trusting the censors.
Not, of course, that anybody’s advocating censorship.