David Bernstein and I Discuss the Anti-Semitism Awareness Act

From the Federalist Society Regulatory Transparency Project's Fourth Branch Explainer podcast, available here (or on Apple or Spotify).

Comments

[Ed Grinberg]

Here's Prof. Bernstein's previous post on this topic:
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/05/03/the-hysterical-opposition-to-the-antisemitism-awareness-act-is-unfounded/

[Krayt]

How do you thread a needle? “Jews killed Jesus!” is a tenet of Christianity, in a sense, but using it angrily to stir up crowds is, hell, long predating Hitler. It was a convenient, already-established meme to use to stir up crowds against some smaller group, as you seek power.

Like “Mexicans get the hell out”, I suppose.

[Roger S]

Or like saying Whites owned Black slaves. Or like saying USA fought Germans and Japanese in WWII. Or like talking about the wars that Mohammad and his followers fought. Free speech requires allowing these things to be said.

[dwshelf]

"Jews killed Jesus" is a religious belief, not a scientific claim.

Much like "gay sex is sinful".

Pretty much all religions have less than flattering things to say about the competition.

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

First hand accounts aren't persuasive enough for you?

[agarrett]

As far as I know, the first hand accounts show the Romans killing Jesus. Pontius Pilate was the Roman governor of Judea, and it was Roman soldiers who nailed him to the cross. Jews get the blame because they recommended to Pilate he kill Jesus, but it was the Romans who did the actual killing according to all the accounts I've read.

[David Nieporent]

it was the Romans who did the actual killing according to all the accounts I’ve read.

None of which were 'first hand accounts' anyway, any more than Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows is a 'first hand account' of the Battle of Hogwarts.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

https://youtube.com/shorts/EL2n1lM1QyY?si=AVb7OaRPRxjXRqf8

[David Nieporent]

+100

[Bored Lawyer]

Wait, you mean Gilligan's Island is not a true story? [SHOCKED]

Yeah, I guess the fact that Mr. and Mrs. Howell brought along an entire wardrobe for a "three-hour tour" is a bit unbelievable.

[Harvey Mosley]

On top of that, the S.S. Minnow didn't have the speed or the range to get so far away from civilization. I have a feeling the whole thing was just some made up story.

[Jmaie]

For a nice earworm, try singing the words to the Gilligan’s Island theme with the tune Frosty the Snowman…

[JesusHadBlondeHairBlueEyes]

I was referring to the sinful gay sex.

[Bored Lawyer]

The problem with what you are saying is that it completely lacks context. Saying "Jews killed Jesus" in the abstract does not violate any law.

Suppose a professor in a university calls on a student, and then says, "Mr. Rosenberg. I see you are a Jew, one of those who killed Jesus." That's where the professor may be crossing the line into harassment. Not everything you think or believe is properly expressed in every context.

The same applies to any other religion, BTW.

"Ms. O'Leary, I see you have a cross of ashes on your forehead today, Ash Wednesday. So you belong to that idolatrous group of pedophiles, do you?"
"Mr. Hassan, another member of the Mohammed-the-Pedophile followers, what's the answer to the next math question?"

[Ed Grinberg]

https://news.gab.com/2024/05/the-house-passes-h-r-6090-a-threat-to-the-christian-faith-and-an-affront-to-free-speech/
https://news.gab.com/2024/06/why-are-republicans-destroying-the-first-amendment-and-why-is-no-one-talking-about-it/

As Rev. Arthur Kirkland will readily tell you, our elite universities are bastions of liberalism & light (which is why the evil conservatives / Republicans attack them).
Well, here we have a rabidly antisemitic alt-Right-er attacking ... Republicans for their efforts to do something about the antisemitic double standards prevalent in our elite universities -- what Prof. Bernstein calls "illegal discrimination against Jewish students."
Maybe, pace Rev. Kirkland, "something is rotten in the state of Denmark."

[rloquitur]

Weird that VC has not picked up on the Tennessee Star kangaroo court!!

[Magister]

Maybe they're too busy looking into the Tennessee Kangaroo star chamber?

Or maybe the Tennessee Star denounces things as kangaroo courts so frequently it's not possible to know which you're talking about.

[rloquitur]

https://tennesseestar.com/justice/judge-switches-show-cause-hearing-to-landscaping-exercise-as-lawyers-plead-for-release-of-ruling-leahy-still-in-legal-jeopardy/tpappert/2024/06/17/

Another 'rat judge abusing power.

[Randal]

The IHRA examples (but not the actual definition) say that I'm antisemitic if I point out that the State of Israel is a racist endeavor. Isn't it sort of obviously a racist endeavor, at least by the right's current definition of "racist" which includes e.g. DEI? The whole premise is to avoid ever letting Arabs become a majority. That premise drives a lot of Israel's decision-making.

[rloquitur]

A people doesn't want to commit suicide--yep, they are racists.

[NOVA Lawyer]

So it's okay not to be color blind if it's to combat discrimination against a currently and historically targeted minority? Or does this exception only apply to Israel?

[Ridgeway]

First off, to the extent Israel discriminates, it is on the basis of religion, not race or ethnicity. Ethiopian Jews and Persian Jews are treated just the same as Polish Jews or French Jews, at least de jure. So it is not "racist" in any normal sense of the word, and people only call it "racist" because in most peoples' minds, "racist" = "evil". So yeah, calling Israel a racist state is antisemitic.

Secondly, Israel has loads of non-Jewish Arab citizens with full and equal rights.

What people like Randall are thus implicitly and thus dishonestly arguing, is that the only permissible solution to the current situation is the one-state majority-muslim solution, where all current residents of the West Bank and Gaza are afforded immediate and full Israeli citizenship. Anything else would be "racist" and thus evil.

[Randal]

not race or ethnicity

The Jewish commenters around here tell me that they consider their Jewishness to be an ethnicity rather than a religion.

[Ridgeway]

Judaism is indeed passed down matrilineally, but that is not the sole method that the Israeli govt uses for Right of Return privileges. All you have to show is that one grandparent was Jewish.

More importantly, converts to Judaism as also recognized as “Jewish.”

I can convert to Judaism — I cannot convert to Japanese, French or Arab.

It seems profoundly silly to say that because the Israelis didn’t limit citizenship to practicing, religious Jews, and instead broadened the definition to be much more inclusive, that they are therefore “Racist”.

[Randal]

Do you realize that basing government privileges on ethnic parentage is what your defending?

The fact that Israel is marginally "more inclusive" than straight-up apartheid would allow isn't much of a defense.

[David Nieporent]

Do you realize that basing government privileges on ethnic parentage is what your defending?

You know that other countries do this, right? For example, Irish ancestry entitles one to citizenship in Ireland. Is that "apartheid"?

[Randal]

If Israeli and/or Palestinian ancestry was what entitled one to citizenship in Israel, that would be quite a different story.

[Nige]

It would be apartheid if there were citizens who got lesser rights than others.

[NOVA Lawyer]

Ridgway,

To the extent you're reply to me, I didn't say anything about race. I said discrimination.

Secondly, Israel has loads of non-Jewish Arab citizens with full and equal rights.

Do they actually have full and equal rights? My understanding is that non-Jewish Arabs would dispute that characterization and suggest that, instead, they have a similar situation to the "separate but equal" purportedly equal rights but not full and equal rights in fact.

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

While there is no institutional segregation, Jews and Arabs have chosen to live separately in all but a handful of cities. Israelis recognize that Arab villages have historically received less funding than Jewish areas, which has affected the quality of Arab schools, infrastructure, and social services. Arabs are also underrepresented in higher education and most industries.

Israeli Arabs integrate in workplaces, shops and public spaces yet have surprisingly little contact with Israeli Jews. Most young people study at different elementary and secondary schools and may not come into contact with one another until college; by then, many preconceived opinions have been formed. This lack of interaction exacerbates tensions between the two communities.

And, obviously, they do not have the same right to have family members emigrate given people with Jewish ancestors have a special privilege in that regard.

My only point, though, is whether rloquitur would apply the same principles in the context of a various religious/ethnic/racial minorities, or is his solicitude for a Jewish state (which necessarily entails special protections for Jews) an exception to general principles he otherwise would apply to religious/ethnic/racial discrimination against historically disadvantaged/targeted minorities?

[Ridgeway]

"While there is no institutional segregation, Jews and Arabs have chosen to live separately in all but a handful of cities. Israelis recognize that Arab villages have historically received less funding than Jewish areas, which has affected the quality of Arab schools, infrastructure, and social services. Arabs are also underrepresented in higher education and most industries.

Israeli Arabs integrate in workplaces, shops and public spaces yet have surprisingly little contact with Israeli Jews. Most young people study at different elementary and secondary schools and may not come into contact with one another until college; by then, many preconceived opinions have been formed. This lack of interaction exacerbates tensions between the two communities."

Compare that description to how the Turks live in Germany, or North and West Africans (esp the Muslims) in France. Do we pillory Germany and France as racist, apartheid states that should be treated as pariahs? Germany is not even a first offender on that score.

Of course we don't, because we realize there is a gigantic difference between unicorn-filled utopias and actual real world countries. Yet with Israel, it has to be Unicorns today, Unicorns tomorrow and Unicorns forevah!

[NOVA Lawyer]

I see you didn't respond to grb's more damning info. I quoted the Jewish Virtual Library as even it could not paint everything as you initially did.

This, from grb's link:

Decades of land confiscations and discriminatory planning policies have confined many Palestinian citizens to densely populated towns and villages that have little room to expand. Meanwhile, the Israeli government nurtures the growth and expansion of neighboring predominantly Jewish communities, many built on the ruins of Palestinian villages destroyed in 1948. Many small Jewish towns also have admissions committees that effectively bar Palestinians from living there.

Do you dispute any of this? Because it's pretty damning if you don't.

(And it smacks of bad faith that, like so many of your political ideology, you pretend, when it suits you, that the opposing side will only settle for utopia ("Unicorns!") or otherwise want the most extreme position imaginable. And, of course, on the other side, you claimed Arab Israelis had "full and equal rights" which seems.......Panglossian. Nuance is dead.)

[Ridgeway]

I am not sure why I should respond to GRB's post in a response to your post. FWIW, the reason I did not respond to his is that based on his previous posts on this topic, he is a nut about Israel/Palestine, and discussions with him would not be productive.

In any event, I am not being a Pangloss about Israel. I am arguing that de jure, Palestinian/Arab citizens have the same legal rights as do Jewish citizens. Just as do Turks in Germany or Africans in France. In fact, to my understanding, many Turks and Africans are not even citizens, but just "legal residents."

Of course, that does not guarantee de facto equality, due to any number of factors both malign and benign, whether in Israel, Germany, France or even the US. But only Israel is held to a standard requiring virtual perfection.

[NOVA Lawyer]

But the specific complaints outlined in the Human Rights Watch report to which he linked match other news items I have heard and they are not the same as you would find in Germany, France, or even the U.S. (unless you transport back a few decades, though, you are right, the U.S. is far from perfect given it’s past discrimination involving discriminatory redlining, outright stealing or destroying property, etc. from Black Americans).

This, for example: Many small Jewish towns also have admissions committees that effectively bar Palestinians from living there.

But is that what has been going on in Israel or isn’t it?

Because I hear one side say no, it’s not an apartheid regime like South Africa from the 1980s, and the other side says yes it is. The news story grb linked seems pretty strong indication that, yes, it is.

Is there an inaccuracy or isn’t there?

My point is, why do you even write at all if it is just to say, “no, it isn’t any worse than other democratic countries”, but you won’t engage on the actual facts of the matter before arguing what someone’s opinion should be.

Facts do matter. Are these the facts as you understand them?

[Randal]

Also let’s not forget that Israeli citizenship itself is discriminatory.

[Ridgeway]

When I have taken the time to dig into HRW reports on Israel, I have found them to be tendentious and lacking in objectivity. I have no reason to believe this one was different. By way of illustration, I could show you an aerial view of Westchester County NY, where the vast majority of black and hispanic residents are "penned up" in high-density Yonkers, Mount Vernon, White Plains, downtown New Rochelle and downtown Port Chester. Meanwhile, white people luxuriate in green and leafy suburbs like Rye, Larchmont, Scarsdale and Hastings-on-Hudson -- not to mention Chappaqua, home to noted segregationists/apartheidniks Bill and Hillary Clinton. To make matters worse, the government is not giving our black and hispanic residents any additional land! In case you were wondering, our upcoming congressional primary in Westchester is a contest between Jamaal Bowman (Very Progressive Democrat and Kook) and George Latimore (Very Progressive Democrat and Jerk). The general election is not expected to be competitive for the Rs, so that primary will decide the election.

Back to objective facts:

Arabs make up about 21% of the Israeli population and 10% of the Knesset (10/100)

Turks make up about 5% of the population of Germany and have 2.4% of the Bundestag seats (18/735)

Blacks make up about 12% of the US population, and based on CBC membership, approximately 7.5% of the House (33/435). I think there may be a couple of Black republican congressmen that are not in the CBC, but not enough to change the percentage much. The Senate discrepency is greater -- 4 out of 100.

In apartheid South Africa, Blacks made up approximately 82% of the population and there were zero blacks in Parliament.

Only one of those countries looks like apartheid-era South Africa, and that is apartheid-era South Africa.

[NOVA Lawyer]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/25/middleeast/west-bank-israeli-settler-violent-terrorism-intl/index.html

[grb]

Ridgeway : “First off, to the extent Israel discriminates, it is on the basis of religion, not race or ethnicity”

How blindly oblivious must you be to see one side of the equation alone? Palestinians who live in Israel proper have a second-class citizenship by race and ethnicity. This is both codified in law and thru crude discrimination at every level of society. One example is how Israel controls most land inside the country and uses that power to pen Israeli Palestinians into concentrated communities.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/05/12/israel-discriminatory-land-policies-hem-palestinians

And (of course) Palestinians in the West Bank face brutal suffocating oppression because of their race and ethnicity. There’s the settler violence Israelis refuse to control or punish. There’s the orwellian-grade bureaucracy used to control every aspect of Palestinian lives. The fences and gates the IDF uses to close-off and lock-up Palestinian towns and villiages. The special roads and freeways that chop-up the territory and are reserved for Israeli use alone. The different laws that apply to different races. The theft of Palestinian land that occurs day by day, month by month, year by ear. Sometimes the littlest details highlight the ugliness: A Times of Israel article noted the Israeli occupation authotity approved only 33 building permits in the West Bank for Palestinian construction between 2017 & 2022. They don’t want them building anything. Certainly not on land they’d like to steal.

And then there’s the open air prision of Gaza. Enclosed by walls, its airspace cut-off & airport destroyed, its coastline blockaded so tightly the Palestinian fishing fleet can’t get far enough offshore to survive, and with all imports & exports funneled through one Israeli-controled checkpoint. You frequently hear the Palestinians could have had the “Singapore of the Middle East” there. Really? The Israelis withdrew in September of 2005. Less than four months later Hamas won elections and a total blockade has continuously sealed-off the Strip since. During those four months of 2005-2006, Gaza was already under full lockdown & blockade 60% of the time. A cynic might hold Israel was pushing for a Hamas victory, just like they’ve secretly propped-up the group since as their go-to excuse to block talks. Regardless, there was zero chance for a “Singapore” to emerge.

[Ridgeway]

“Singapore of the Middle East”

I aim for the Stars …. but sometimes I hit Haifa.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

.

Secondly, Israel has loads of non-Jewish Arab citizens with full and equal rights.

Israel's longstanding, disgusting imposition of second-class (at best) status on people (including residents) who do not fit Israel's preferred flavor of religion or ethnicity has been vividly documented.

Your attempt to defend Israel's superstition-fueled, violent, bigoted right-wing government is pathetic.

Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit.

[Nige]

'is the one-state majority-muslim solution, where all current residents of the West Bank and Gaza are afforded immediate and full Israeli citizenship.'

As a GOAL this would be laudable, but of course it would take a long time, incredibly hard work, patience, forbearance and a means of dealing with extremists determined to blow it up. Easier to bomb Gaza to rubble.

[Don Nico]

NoVA,
To offer an operational answer your question, I suggest that in the context of the Levant, "never again" is a most important value than the American definition of racism.

[Nige]

I would say that using "never again" as a cover for killing thousands civilians is an obscenity.

[NOVA Lawyer]

I would agree. It is an obscenity.

Though Don Nico does have a point that people will use such mantras to justify any sort of evil if they are so inclined. The U.S. funded Salvadoran death squads, various dictators, and the like all in the name of freedom, for example. Likewise torture “because we have to.” No, we didn’t. That’s the sort of story that people who want to do evil tell themselves to justify their evil. The danger of such thinking is, of course, that you become the thing you started out fighting against.

[Michael P]

You didn’t actually make an argument that Israel is a racist endeavor, you merely asserted it, except to the extent that you conflated Arabs with Muslims. Are you really surprised that the rest of us recognize that as an antisemitic stance?

[Randal]

You think Israel would be a-ok with a non-Jewish Arab majority as long as they weren't Muslims? You're retarded. Twice. First for thinking that might be true, and second for thinking that might be better.

[Ridgeway]

No. Retarded is thinking that the Israelis should ignore that past 80 years of history and imagine they are in a world where a large cohort of their neighbors do not wish to exterminate them.

[Randal]

I’m not saying that’s retarded. I’m not even saying that’s racist. I’m saying it’s at least as racist as DEI is.

[Don Nico]

Which in regards to Israel is irrelevant.

[Randal]

Refer to my original post to find the relevance. Namely, you, too, Don Nico, are officially an antisemite now, according to the examples to the IHRA definition of antisemitism. Which puts you in violation of the Act.

[Don Nico]

"you, too, Don Nico, are officially an antisemite now, according to the examples to the IHRA definition of antisemitism"
Please explain that. I doubt that you can.
After all, I did not say that Israel was racist but that any comparison of Israel's policies to American DEI is irrelevant. Instead, I did say that "Never again" is the deciding principle.

[Randal]

As a defense to accusations of Israel being racist, you didn’t say it wasn’t, you said “never again” was a higher priority. That definitely counts as suggesting “that the State of Israel is a racist endeavor.”

[Ridgeway]

[posted in wrong place]