The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Kavanaugh Denies Standing For Docs Against Glocks
Doctors cannot claim an injury to challenge gun control laws because their patients may be affected by gun violence.
In 2011, Florida enacted a law that restricted when doctors could ask their patients if they owned a gun. The sentiment behind the law was that doctors, as a whole, were hostile to gun rights, and could not be trusted with this power. The so-called Docs v. Glocks law, however, did not survive. In 2017, the en banc Eleventh Circuit ruled that the law violated the First Amendment and violated Due Process (there were two majority opinions).
I thought of that case today while re-reading Justice Kavanaugh's standing analysis in FDA v. Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine. The doctors in that case clearly had standing because the law regulated their speech. But these same anti-gun doctors could assert standing in other cases. Imagine that some doctors who are hostile to gun rights sought standing to challenge some sort of gun control policy. The basis of their injury would be that with fewer restrictions on firearms, their patients are more likely to show up in the emergency room. I'm sure elite medical journals could pump out studies showing how that is a predictable, non-attenuated chain of consequences. That argument might have worked yesterday. But not today. AHM slammed that door shut:
In any event, and perhaps more to the point, the law has never permitted doctors to challenge the government's loosening of general public safety requirements simply because more individuals might then show up at emergency rooms or in doctors' offices with follow-on injuries. Stated otherwise, there is no Article III doctrine of "doctor standing" that allows doctors to challenge general government safety regulations. Nor will this Court now create such a novel standing doctrine out of whole cloth.
Consider some examples. . . . The government repeals certain restrictions on guns—does a surgeon have standing to sue because he might have to operate on more gunshot victims? The answer is no: The chain of causation is simply too attenuated. Allowing doctors or other healthcare providers to challenge general safety regulations as unlawfully lax would be an unprecedented and limitless approach and would allow doctors to sue in federal court to challenge almost any policy affecting public health.
I don't know if Justice Kavanaugh was thinking about Docs v. Glocks. But he is wont to reach out to decide issues that are not present. And I think this path for standing is foreclosed.
Update: On 6/14, I added these sentences: "The doctors in that case clearly had standing because the law regulated their speech. But these same anti-gun doctors could assert standing in other cases." I was making clear that in the Florida case, the doctors clearly hand standing. In this post, I was talking about a hypothetical case.
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If there is anything a disaffected, downscale misfit in a dead-end position resents and disdains, it is anything and everything that is elite in modern America.
Well if you look at the wealth inequality caused by Democrat modern America, you'll realize there is only a tiny class of super rich elites.
Most of them live around DC, and what's sad about that, is that means they tend to be stupider than the normal person.
Josh is such a lazy lawyer. The docs in the Docs vs Glocks case were not challenging gun control laws (or the lack thereof) based on this type of standing. They were making a first amendment challenge to a law censoring their speech. The fact that they were doctors was merely incidental to the case.
Josh, once again, lazily tries to spin a conservative defeat in one case into a secret liberal defeat in an unrelated case. And all In the name of attacking free speech rights. Eugene Volokh should be proud.
Exactly. The doctors didn’t have to manufacture standing to challenge a “general public safety requirement”; the Florida law directly regulated their speech. Kavanaugh’s opinion has absolutely nothing to do with general, first-party standing.
Even for Josh, this is sloppy and off base.
It’s almost as though Josh is like, you know… disingenuous.
You didn't even bother to read the article, did you? Prof Blackman makes exactly the points you're claiming he ignored.
If you can't be bothered to actually read a short article like this before posting, you have no room to call anyone else lazy.
I read the post. It was a series of nonsensical non-sequiturs. "Imagine that the parties to a particular case made entirely different arguments about an entirely different issue. It would be foreclosed by this decision! But they're doctors, just like the doctors in this case."
Non-sequitur indeed. Why would he (re)write "The doctors in that case clearly hand standing because the law regulated their speech" when the title is "Justice Kavanaugh Denies Standing For Docs Against Glocks"?
Wrong. He didn't make those points. He rewrote the article after I pointed it out and hoped no one would notice. He should have either taken down the original article or offered a correction.
Shady.
But ... I always assumed he didn't read the comments, because he's had some bad typos pointed out before that he didn't correct.
Yeah, he rewrote it so it's now embarrassingly incoherent. Under his rewrite Docs v Glocks has no relevance whatsoever. And his statement that they have standing completely contradicts the title which says they don't. Someone needs to start taking snapshots of his posts using the wayback machine.
Yep, he rewrote it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240614013222/https://reason.com/volokh/2024/06/13/justice-kavanaugh-denies-standing-for-docs-against-glocks/
Boom. Receipts.
The sad thing is that the stealth correction might make the post marginally less unhinged, but still doesn't fix the basic problem- there was never any reason to bring up the Florida case, because it has ... absolutely nothing to do with Kavanaugh's opinion. Literally nothing.
This would have been best dealt with by a correction that was just taking down the original post, and replacing it with a "Never mind."
I'm so glad Wayback Machine took a snapshot. I always felt like Josh was intellectually dishonest - always taking the position that leads to a conservative policy outcome, regardless of intellectual consistency.
Arguing conservative Jews have religious exemption rights, but not reform Jews; the States have standing to challenge the absence of an individual mandate tax; pretending there is no right to interstate travel, but only if it's to get an abortion; his super weird screed about the President holding an office but NOT being an officer; and now this claim that free speech rights don't apply the topic of guns. At least it's confirmed.
"Arguing conservative Jews have religious exemption rights, but not reform Jews"
Yeah, the "I get to determine who is a real Jew" was definitely not the finest moment in VC history. Even by the usual Calabresi/Lindgren/JB standards.
Sometimes, I think he would do a lot better talking some of his ideas out with people before posting them for all to see.
Sometimes?
Wow. I read it when it was first posted — and concluded that it was a typical dumb Blackman "I am contractually obligated to say everything that comes into my mind without thinking first" post — and I re-read it earlier today, but I didn't pay enough attention to realize he had changed it.
I don't think the change actually was quite as dishonest as cannpro is implying. What Blackman did was insert a few sentences to change it from a random non sequiturish musing to a random non sequiturish musing that implicitly admitted it was a random non sequiturish musing.
Either way, it's an incredibly dumb post on Blackman's part that should've just been deleted once he realized that it was a non sequitur. He could have replaced it with a "Dismissed as Improvidently Posted."
I think he added the two sentences so when anyone points out the cases aren't related, he can point to the addition and claim he said the opposite, even though it entirely contradicts the title an jist of his post; making it more non-sequitur.
If one thinks of "Docs against Glocks" not as the actual doctors from the Florida case he's writing about, but as hypothetical doctors suing about hypothetical guns, well, then, there's no contradiction at all in the title.
I at this point am not even sure whether I'm being sarcastic or sardonic.
The bottom line is, commentators who want to be taken seriously and trusted announce when they've made changes to a post, even just stylistic or to correct a typo. Ilya does it. Orin does it. That Josh doesn't do it should come as a surprise to absolutely no one.
"They were making a first amendment challenge to a law censoring their speech. The fact that they were doctors was merely incidental to the case."
Bullshit.
It isn't like they were asking random people outside the a grocery store -- they were asking this in the course of a medical examination and putting the answer into the patient's chart!
That's not free speech, no more than a K-12 teacher can ask children who their parents votefor and put that in their permanent records. Like many Florida laws, they probably could have done the same thing and been on slightly more solid ground had they worded it a bit differently.
That is in fact free speech. K-12 teachers are government employees, and therefore have nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion.
LOL. Even if you are right in you first amendment "analysis" it doesn't matter since this is a standing discussion. And the doctors definitely had standing since it wasn't a general public policy grievance like in AHM.
Gun deaths are among the leading causes of deaths among children here (though not in any other country). This is as opposed to gun deaths among adults, which mostly are suicides. Any pediatrician will, consistent with his professional ethics, advocate laws that restrict the frequency of gun deaths, and will support such efforts in court.
I don't think that's correct. If pools were a leading cause of child injury and death, must a pediatrician oppose them or support restrictions on them?
(b) support restrictions on them, as in supporting reasonable control of access to them by an at-risk population under the pediatrician’s care.
Just like guns.
Not like guns, because the restrictions gun controllers demand are typically radically unreasonable for a civil liberty.
Pool ownership isn't a civil liberty.
You don't support any restrictions on guns, then?
I support the same general sort of restrictions on guns that you see on printing presses: You're restricted from using them to do something that would be a crime regardless of the instrument you used to accomplish it.
It is a restriction on guns to say you can't use them to commit armed robbery, after all.
What I can't agree to are restrictions on guns that are of a rather different character: That prohibit ownership, features or acts that are themselves harmless, and are simply hypothesized to make wrongful acts easier.
And restrict the rights of hundreds or thousands of innocents for every guilty person they merely inconvenience.
1. Makes one wonder what counts as an arm to you and what's not.
2. You also don't like registration, without any particular doctrine to point to other than telepathically finding a liberal plot behind such policies.
3. Your sense of rights as a broad and bright line free from any exceptions is not how any right has been treated since the Founding of the Republic. Except maybe the 3rd.
I bet Hunter Biden wishes he hadn’t filled out that 4473 now, of course requiring people to register guns is an ersatz IQ Test, if you comply, you’re too stupid to be trusted with a gun in the first place
Nope, did you miss Vocabulary class when they taught “Infringed”?
It isn't Malika -- the leading cause of death of children is accidents.
Now if you segregate into TYPE of accident -- motor vehicle, drowning, etc -- *and* extend your definition of "child" to age 20. *and* comingle gun accidents and gun homicides, then you can have guns being the leading cause.
But I call that "lying with statistics."
And it's Black Teenagers who are the real outlier -- THEY are the ones who are killing each other with guns, remove them and drowning is a bigger threat.
" Any pediatrician will, consistent with his professional ethics, advocate laws that restrict the frequency of gun deaths,"
I don't mind if they advocate laws against murder and assault, though it seems redundant at this point.
But when they start advocating that civil liberties be restricted I say they can go pound sand.
That's not correct, and the only way to even get close to being correct is to count suicides and "kids" up to 21 or 26 or some other farcical age.
He said, "among the leading", which is pretty vague.
But what they typically do is call everyone up to and including 17 year olds, (Sometimes up to 19.) "children", in order to pretend the deaths of 17 year old gang bangers are 'pediatric' deaths.
As you can see here, the firearm death rate for people we'd call "children" for other purposes is extremely low. Even this Bunning is coarse enough to disguise what's really going on.
But, of course, a key factor here is that the overall death rate from all causes is extremely low for children. So you don't need a lot of gun deaths to rise in the list.
Brett -- a lot of our servicemen are under age 20 -- so a lot of the combat deaths in Iraq & Afghanistan got counted as children killed by guns.
[Citation needed.]
In addition to Dr. Ed's claim being entirely DrEddish, it wouldn't matter if it were true; the total servicemember deaths, of all ages, from all causes, was only about 7,000. Over 20 years. We're not talking about a meaningful number in the statistics.
That claim is only true if you define "children" up to age 25 and include every drug- and gang-war related death in your statistics.
I will freely concede that the US' 'War on Drugs' is misguided and self-destructive and that many young adults (and a few children) are lost to that horrible policy. I will also concede that our approach is, while not unique, probably worse than most other countries'.
Conflating that into a gun control argument, however, is disingenuous.
No.
The price of the state issued license is the loss of free speech.
Yeah… no. It does not in fact work that way.
[move]
So you can't claim damages in regards to a civil right. Who knew?
Really really stupid, DUH
LOL. Josh changed the article (without an Update notice) to acknowledge the doctors did have standing in the Docs v Glocks case because it was a first amendment issue, and not a challenge to "general public safety regulations"; thereby entirely contradicting his original post. Guess he hoped no one would notice.
Guess I’m a “Doc against Glock” myself, 60+ guns (like Wilt the Stilt I lose count, and does a partially assembled AR count? an M1A Receiver I bought for a rainy day?) and not a Glock in the Arsenal, I like guns that look like guns, Berettas, CZ75’s, 1911’s, Makarovs, Smith & Wessons, Glocks always remind me of the guy scanning prices at Walmart.
Frank
Okay, this is embarrassing.
Guess Josh was worried that Calabresi was taking his title?
I'd be more embarrassed for Josh if people who ought to know better didn't keep taking him seriously. Aileen Cannon? OK, hacks gonna hack. But The Times? Cato? Politico? WTF?
Hilarious thing is Josh Blackman could have used a real example involving guns like Powell v Illinois where plaintiffs argued a lack of gun control laws traumatized them and would be denied under Kavanaugh's standing opinion. Instead he brings up this irrelevant Florida case about speech which has absolutely nothing to do with AHM's standing arguments. Does Josh even try?