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Apparent Suspension of Student Groups at Wisconsin for Pro-Hamas Chalking
From FIRE's letter sent yesterday to the University of Wisconsin (you can see the citations here); I generally trust FIRE's factual summaries, but if there is any error in the below, I'll of course be very glad to correct it:
FIRE is deeply concerned that UW-Madison has suspended two registered student organizations—Anticolonial Scientists and Mecha de UW Madison—amid criticism of chalk messages some group members allegedly wrote at an off-campus event earlier this month. Some of the messages expressed support for terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas's Al-Qassam Brigades, and advocated the use of violence against Israelis and Zionists in the Middle East.
The student groups are currently under interim suspensions, pending investigation, with UW stating that, because "[s]ome chalkings endorsed violence, supported terrorist organizations and/or contained antisemitic comments," they could qualify as prohibited discriminatory harassment under the university's RSO Code of Conduct. But that conclusion cannot constitutionally stand. The off-campus chalk messages constitute political speech wholly protected by the First Amendment, which requires UW, as a public institution, to respect the groups' expressive and associational rights—even if some, many, or most people dislike their message.
There is, more specifically, no First Amendment exception that would remove protection from speech simply because it is deemed "anti-Semitic" or otherwise bigoted based on race or religion. Regardless of the viewpoint expressed, the rule is the same: Government officials cannot circumscribe expression on the basis that others find the ideas offensive or hateful.
This is particularly true at public colleges, where "conflict is not unknown," and "dissent is expected and, accordingly, so is at least some disharmony." The First Amendment instead "embraces such heated exchange[s] of views."
The Supreme Court has long recognized the public's interest "in having free and unhindered debate on matters of public importance" as "the core value of the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment." And there is simply no question that chalking support for any participants in the Israel/Hamas war—the reverberations of which have been felt globally for many months—constitutes expression on a matter of public concern, which is defined broadly as speech "relating to any matter of political, social, or other concern to the community."
Nor is there evidence (despite UW's suggestion) that the students' political messages, written in chalk at a farmers' market nearly a mile from campus, would approach the legal bars for either material support for terrorism or discriminatory harassment—even if those same words had been written on UW's own sidewalks.
The Supreme Court defines discriminatory harassment in the educational context as only those statements which are unwelcome, discriminatory on the basis of protected status, and "so severe, pervasive, and objectively offensive that it can be said to deprive the victim[] of access to the educational opportunities or benefits provided by the school." The U.S. Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights has likewise clarified that discriminatory harassment "must include something beyond the mere expression of views, words, symbols, or thoughts that some person finds offensive."
Current events do not change this analysis. Earlier this month, OCR reiterated that "offensiveness of a particular expression as perceived by some students, standing alone, is not a legally sufficient basis to establish a hostile environment under Title VI," and that "[n]othing in Title VI or regulations implementing it requires or authorizes a school to restrict any rights otherwise protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution." OCR's letter also emphasized that campuses have options for addressing the impact of hostile speech that avoid offending the First Amendment, including by offering a variety of support services to affected students.
UW's own discriminatory harassment policies and RSO rules reflect these appropriate limits on its ability to punish core political speech, with the RSO rules clearly stating they "will not be used to impose discipline for the lawful expression of ideas" and that "[t]he right of all students to seek knowledge, debate, and freely express their ideas is fully recognized by the University." This is surely because, as you know, free expression is a "longstanding priority" at UW-Madison, which has a dedicated mission and a values statement focused on "Free Expression at UW-Madison." That statement describes "the need for the free exchange of ideas through open dialogue, free inquiry, and healthy and robust debate," as "inherent" to the university's educational mission, "captured by our now-famous language about the importance of 'that fearless sifting and winnowing by which alone truth can be found.'"
Student organizations play an important role in the healthy speech ecosystem that UW's mission and values seek to foster. In turn, the First Amendment protects these groups' expressive and associational rights, fostering their ability to organize around causes and to attempt to influence our institutions, communities, and country. Nor can universities subject the speech of students in RSOs to additional, viewpoint-based scrutiny.
Instead, student groups' speech rights are broad, and they extend to expressing philosophical support for the use of force or violence. As the Supreme Court has held: "What is a threat must be distinguished from what is constitutionally protected speech," including "political hyperbole," given our country's "profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open."
Government actors may prohibit non-expressive conduct intended to provide material support, like property or services, to designated foreign terrorist organizations. But the First Amendment's protection of robust debate prohibits government actors from limiting mere expressive activity or rhetorical support for such groups. That is so even where the net effect of the advocacy is to sway public opinion.
Despite what may be good intentions, UW does its community no service by censoring these controversial messages. Like many universities, UW is a community of people with sharply divergent views on a wide variety of issues. To the extent the chalked messages have informed UW students, faculty, and staff members of the presence of individuals with these views on campus, this should be seen as an opportunity for those who disagree either to engage with them in good faith—or, if they wish, to avoid such engagement. Censoring them will do nothing to change their minds, and will deny all parties the opportunity to learn from one another.
The First Amendment, and UW's longstanding commitment to its attendant norms, are most relevant on campus at precisely the moments like these, when social and political unrest triggers high emotions, deep divisions, and the temptation to turn to censorship. When a university departs from its core principles at these key moments and resorts to silencing views it deems odious, it sends the message that the university has subordinated both the rights of its students and its mission of liberal education to the political demands of the day.
We therefore urge you in the strongest possible terms, in this difficult season for campus discourse, to stand by the university's legal and moral obligations to respect students' core expressive freedoms. This requires promptly reinstating the Anticolonial Scientists and Mecha de UW Madison student organizations, and publicly disavowing any ongoing investigation into their clearly protected political speech.
Given the urgent nature of this matter, we request a substantive response to our inquiry no later than close of business Thursday, May 23, 2024.
The legal analysis sounds quite right to me. Note that, even if the government could forbid chalking in various places (and it's not clear whether it can, at least as to public sidewalks), it can't specially punish chalking that conveys particular views, including advocacy of foreign terrorist organizations and support for violence in foreign conflicts.
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" . . . including advocacy of foreign terrorist organizations . . . "
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
I guess I learned English too long ago.
It's a pretty big stretch to say writing something in chalk is levying war or giving aid and comfort.
Don't get me wrong, they disgust me but there is no need for the protection of inoffensive speech.
The MAGAt view of free speech covers only speech they like.
A Pays B to write things in support of Hamas.
Has A committed a crime?
No. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
Actually, if A is a "foreign principal", and B doesn't report their status as an agent of such, B may at least have committed a crime.
Test.
One really short of treason, which was the initial charge.
FARA violation perhaps, but that's not relevant to the point LtbF made leading off this thread.
Not Free Speech ! Another off-campus event shall be adjudicated off campus. Chalk never lies. Pro-genocide is illegal !
Are you calling the Palestinians enemies then? Didn't the US just build a pier in the middle of a sea to transport material aid to them?
No, he's saying Hezbollah and Hamas's Al-Qassam Brigades are - they are formally designated terrorist groups by the US.
https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/
If they pray to Allah and to the terrorist pedophile Muhammad, then, yes, they're enemies.
Gullible fools, maybe -- much like Christians or Jews -- but not enemies.
Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. was a gullible fool?
To some degree -- the belief that fairy tales are true -- yes.
Some strength of character overcame the gullibility, and his magnificent achievements more than offset the superstition. I saw little evidence that he inflicted harm on the world with his religion.
What do you think of adult-onset superstition?
Revolting, that was pretty Revolting even for you (when you use “Revolting” as a title, that’s pretty Revolting)
Frank
That's not really evidence to the contrary, you know. Not with the current administration in charge.
The pier is built to help Palestinian civilians. Do you think people who gave money to the Red Cross during WWII were giving "material aid" to the Nazis?
Of course they're not going to say it was built to help Hamas. But you can't supply Palestinian civilians in an area controlled by Hamas without ending up helping Hamas, instead.
But you still want to supply Palestinian civilians. The idea that Biden wants to help Hamas is something RFK's brainworm would find too stupid to say out loud.
Could Biden face the Death Penalty?
That's what I'm talking about!
Welcome back from wherever, Ed!
We all do eventually
The same one we all do.
"The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away" Psalm 90:10
So those chalk qwritings were actually coded communications to Hamas?
From, not to.
Hamas, not too busy to write in chalk on a corner of a US college town.
Eugene, for me this calls to mind an incident you might remember at UCLA in 2014-2015 when a student (who ended up being Asian) was questioned for chalking "Keep Europe White" on Bunche or one of the other buildings in the area, and ultimately not punished for exactly the same 1A reasons FIRE is concerned about here.
I want to know exactly what the markings said. I do not trust anybody's characterization of their contents as anti-this or pro-that.
"It's OK to be Palestinian."
A dead Palestinian....
From the document:
The messages chalked near the Wisconsin Capitol, located about a mile east of campus, included: “Power to Hezbollah,” “Power to Al-Qassam,” “Al-Qassam show us how, kill another soldier now,” “Power to Ansrallah [Houthis] Seize them All,” “Down with ‘Israel’ down with ‘USA,’” “All cops are Zionists,” and “Al-Qassam you make us proud, kill another soldier now!”
Protected but disgusting speech.
Morality-deprived dopes have rights, too.
The benefit of the First Amendment is not that there's value in every last asininity foaming from some noob's lips, or from their chalk, but in blanket denying the power hungry one of their greatest tools of tyranny: censorship.
Excellent first step, Krayt. Government must not have power of censorship. Take that as unbreakable principle, and stick to it. Let that be your definition of expressive freedom.
Now try to take it the next step. Can any means be found within that principle to constrain actually destructive publications, without putting that power in the hands of government?
Or do you deny against evidence that some publications are destructive? If you do deny it, consider, for instance, the example of a hypothetical lethal pandemic—with potential to kill a substantial fraction of everyone, across all demographics—for which an effective vaccine exists—but with the vaccine opposed by publishers of actually persuasive hoaxes—who have taken the vaccine and thus expect to survive, and expect to reap economic or political advantages from the deaths of others.
In short, is it your contention that because government must not have power of censorship, that means all publications are virtuous, and thus the worst of them must be treated as the most virtuous? Have you considered whether that makes any sense, and if it does not, what principles promote free expression and exclude government censorship, without demanding crazy conclusions?
If you do deny it, consider, for instance, the example of a hypothetical lethal pandemic—with potential to kill a substantial fraction of everyone, across all demographics—for which an effective vaccine exists—but with the vaccine opposed by publishers of actually persuasive hoaxes—who have taken the vaccine and thus expect to survive, and expect to reap economic or political advantages from the deaths of others.
I've a better example- a publication that denies God exists.
Germs can kill the body; atheism can damn souls!
Which illusory god(s) do you favor?
So, tell me more about this Z you worship...
and we love you for it, Revolting.
What should be suspended for these terrorists is their heartbeats. These parasites belong in camps.
The moral high ground!
Pro Hamas is pro-genocide. Pro-genocide is illegal, thus they must be arrested, charged, and convicted to extensive sentences.
It is not.
The U. S. stopped that sort of debate.
The Genocide Convention says that "Direct and public incitement to commit genocide" shall be punishable (Art. III). But in ratifying the Genocide Convention, the U. S. attached this reservation: "That nothing in the Convention requires or authorizes legislation or other action by the United States of America prohibited by the Constitution of the United States as interpreted by the United States."
So the Brandenburg standard remains in force, even for people who say genocide should be done.
As a potential employer, I would like to know the names of every UW student in the Anticolonial Scientists and Mecha de UW Madison groups (photos would be helpful), so that I never hire them. We're using AI in initial social media scans of job candidates where I work and things like this pop to the top. Amazing how efficient AI can make things. 🙂
The students have a 1A right of free speech, however personally objectionable I find it; and I choose not to associate with them (e.g. hire them) in response. Fair? Legal?
My recollection is that it is not leagal in California.
However, I do think that it is fair.
If done in the aggregate by all employers, it is not fair. If it were fair, Harrison Butker could be out of a job (if all NFL teams were so inclined). His politics should not impact his ability to get a job he is otherwise qualified for.
Putting it another way, the First Amendment protects worthless speech because we don’t trust the government to distinguish between worthless and worthwhile speech, and the government wields great power. The same principle ought to apply to employers, because in the aggregate they too wield great power.
Sorry, but "it isn't fair" is not part of the Constitution.
So I guess you'll have to settle for just protecting worthless speech from government interference?
Statutes can cover private employment.
Harrison Butker is a credulous, bigoted, obsolete dumbass . . . but superstitious culture war casualties have rights, too.
The real losers in this context are everyone associated with the low-quality, nonsense-based, bigot-hugging, backwater "school" that invited obsolete hayseed Butker to speak. Mainstream America never should have recognized accreditation in the context of nonsense-teaching institutions.
I wonder how many people will have the same opinion with respect to both Butker and Kaepernick.
I believe Kaepernick and Butler should be permitted to play based on merit. I sense Kaepernick was shunned for his views. I doubt Butker will be shunned for his views. That is not so much progress as a reflection of the white, conservative, old-timey nature of most NFL owners and plenty of NFL personnel.
Kaepernick did take his beliefs on the field (during the anthem) which could be a content-neutral rule he violated. That being said, it's likely Kaepernick was destined to be blackballed because of the content of his speech.
Kaepernick did not violate any NFL rule. And if he had, that would be a legal defense to a claim for breach of contract, but irrelevant to the position that any outsider might hold about how he should be treated.
I don't really follow hockey that much, 😉 but wasn't he due to be blackballed because of the content of his playing, and he did something controversial in order to create the impression that it was for something else?
No, Trump personally took credit for blackballing him for his speech, remember? Free speech warriors? Remember?
No. Kaepernick burst on the scene and led his team to the Super Bowl (hockey??). But, he proved to be a middle-of-the-pack quarterback who many teams could have used.
Is it illegal, Josh R?
In California it is. It ought to be elsewhere too.
Cancel culture is fun when my side does it.
Fair? Legal? Actually in line with company policy and the company's best interests? Who's to say?
I think you landed on where a Company would, SimonP. Meaning, why hire Hamas-loving job candidate 2, which could be very detrimental to Company interests by alienating a portion of our customer base.
XY, that one takes us back to the heyday of Jim Crow.
Can't hire black people for public facing jobs; that would alienate a portion of our customer base. That one was common as dirt during the early 1950s.
A mile from the campus and we don't know who actually wrote them, unless someone has admitted to it and it's mentioned elsewhere. In the context of counter-protesters acting as agents provocateur.
*Chalk messages a mile away by unknown parties* That's where we are, I guess. You guys wouldn't last five seconds in Belfast without your eyes melting.
Considering that we have video of the actual protesters chanting the same slogans, it's a bit late to be claiming this is a false flag operation.
1. Memes are a thing but the protesters are not a hive mind.
2. That would also be what an agent provocateur would observe.
I would suspect the school had more evidence than just they saw a message and these guys were protesters.
But it also looks like you disagree with the OP and think this is sanctionable activity?
Yes, of course, it is theoretically possible for a false flag to chalk slogans the protesters demonstrably agree with, but just happened to have not chalked.
But is that really the way to bet? No, I think not.
"But it also looks like you disagree with the OP and think this is sanctionable activity?"
I think you could impartially sanction chalking as a form of vandalism, but not based on content.
You're suddenly skeptical that inflammatory stuff is as likely to be a false flag as not these days.
Whenever someone puts out a noose or some anti-black or Nazi shit, isn't your default its a hoax?
I think you could impartially sanction chalking as a form of vandalism, but not based on content.
Which would itself be a statement to anyone who isn't foolish.
“You’re suddenly skeptical that inflammatory stuff is as likely to be a false flag as not these days”
Once somebody gets caught chanting something inflammatory in front of a camera, rationally the odds of them having chalked the same stuff rises.
"Which would itself be a statement to anyone who isn’t foolish."
Yeah: "These are sidewalks, not billboards."
At Wisconsin, or is this a nationwide collective propensity evidence thing you got going on?
The point is I see no indication that anybody actually knows who wrote them, and yet these societies got suspended. ('Some students' and 'allegedly' doing a lot of work only to get passed over immediately.) So this is less about freedom of speech and more about blaming people for non-destructive and easily-erased vandalism without evidence that any of them were involved. The FIRE sleight of hand seems to be bravely standing up for their rights while still putting the burden of blame for it on them and bringing a whole lot of hostile attention, official and otherwise, to bear on the groups.
Because of course the reason they're cracking down hard is the viewpoint of the groups. There are plenty of legal and official ways to chill freedom of speech that will always be defended and supported by free speech absolutists - see book bans in schools and libraries and civil disobedience = terrorism arguments.
This is Brett Bellmore level brainworms. "Yeah, they took the right side, but they secretly had a bad motive for so doing."
Harsh, dude. So harsh.
David Nieporent : This is Brett Bellmore level brainworms. “Yeah, they took the right side, but they secretly had a bad motive for so doing.”
I'm still working on Brett's above theory Kaepernick only protested to create a cover story to hide the super-secret Real Reason he was blackballed.
There is absolutely nothing that man's fevered brain can't turn into tin-foil-hat gibberish!
I think one could punish chalking based on content that is an integral part of a harassing or illegally discriminatory environment, but based on the descriptions and quotes above, these particular messages seem rather far (both physically and in content) from meeting that criterion.
" the protesters are not a hive mind"
However, they put themselves in a situation of very strong peer pressure, which can exhibit "hive mind" symptoms
Brett is saying that videos of a chant somewhere else in America is something with which protesters in Wisconsin agree.
That's not peer pressure, that's next-level nutpicking.
It's not like the nation-wide protests were organized by a common organization, after all.
Oh, wait, they were.
Common ENEMY organism.
I’m not claiming anything, though, just noting the usual elevation of something small and actually kind of dubious to yet another exercise in condemnation and fist-pounding. Even the FIRE letter has the whiff of posturing boldly about it.
Is there video of the same protestors who did the chalking chanting the same slogans?
The obvious answer is to ban chalk outside of the class room.
Now why didn't I think of that?! 🙂
How about requiring serial numbers on chalk sticks and background checks with waiting periods? This chalk stuff sounds dangerous.
You'll have to pry this chalk stick out of my cold dead hand...
FIRE is wrong here because the right ought to be not to chalk.
To not chalk and still get good grades.
I mean, I'm pretty sure a public expression favorable to a terrorist group is sufficient cause to investigate possible illegal ties. Suspension of groups during this investigation seems inappropriate. While suspensions during investigation of a specific allegation of behavior that violates law or policy may be reasonable, here the allegation is of protected behavior.
So I agree with FIRE that the groups should not be suspended, but claiming that protected speech should never lead to investigation is a batshit insane position to take.
Do you make an exception for these terrorists?
Yes, thanks for reminding us again that you despise Jews. Regardless, you'll find that the free speech and due process guarantees of the Constitution do not protect foreign citizens living in their home country from their own government, so any analysis would be different. Glad I could clear that up for you.
I despise superstition-driven, selfish, bigots right-wing jerks, including those who are Jewish, such as the bigots and war-crimey belligerents in Israel's current government.
I hope better Israelis (including Jews) receive and accept the opportunity to emigrate -- ideally to the United States -- before the Israel's bigoted right-wingers sustain the cost of losing American support.
Despising assholes like Netanyahu, Ben Givr, Smotrich, and the West Bank terrorists has little relevance to views on Jews, although conservative dimwits driven by partisanship strive to create an unfavorable perception of those who dislike Israel's right-wing write-offs.
I am sure that we would have equal concern for critical free speech rights of groups that advocate that all Black people should be murdered (yes, "from the river to the sea" does mean wiping out all Jews in Israel, if it hadn't occurred to you yet).
The only cardinal sin would be if a man dressed as a woman is called "he."
You sound like a disaffected, worthless right-wing bigot.
Nuke Gaza!!!!