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"The Global Hate-Speech Conundrum"

A very interesting item by Prof. Kevin Cope (Virginia), which I'm very happy to be able to pass along:
The recent mass arrests of pro-Palestinian demonstrators have left many asking how such suppression can be justified in a free society. Yet—despite some clear instances of excessive force—U.S. legal tolerance for protests is a global outlier, even among liberal democracies. Since October, U.S. public officials and college administrators have condoned most anti-Israel protests, including (for a while) long-term encampments that violate university rules. Many have provided police protection, even while some protestors voiced support for Hamas's October 7 massacre, lobbed arguably anti-Semitic insults, or called for further violence against Israeli Jews.
In Europe, officials are responding quite differently.
In the days and weeks after October 7, with the Israel Defense Force's retaliation in Gaza well underway, the Eiffel Tower was lit up with the Star of David, and crowds spontaneously sang the Israeli national anthem. Meanwhile, the French Interior Minister instituted a ban on all pro-Palestinian protests.
In Germany, 10,000 joined a pro-Israel rally, while public expressions of pro-Palestinian messages as benign as "stop the war" were prohibited. Berlin police announced that chanting "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" was a criminal offense. In Berlin schools, Palestinian flag colors and the kaffiyeh—a traditional Middle Eastern scarf now associated with Palestinian nationalism—were banned, while other ethnic apparel was permitted. The first pro-Palestinian demonstration was finally permitted in Hamburg in late October 2023, but with a limit on Palestinian flags and a prohibition on questioning Israel's right to exist. And similar to Germany, the British Home Secretary directed police that "From the river to the sea … " may "amount to a racially aggravated … public order offence," in some contexts, punishable by imprisonment.
While every liberal democracy in the world claims to guarantee free expression in some form, the United States is essentially the only country where the government may not "take sides" on contentious issues by censoring expression based on the speaker's viewpoint. As the post-October 7 examples show, many European countries have indeed taken a side in the public discourse over the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—in a way that might surprise many American observers: calls for a ceasefire and an end to what they see as an Israel-perpetrated genocide are criminally prohibited hate speech, while support for continued attacks is constitutionally protected. This strange result illustrates the unintended consequences of allowing governments to pick and choose which beliefs are unlawful "hate speech" and which are fair criticism.
The notion—dominant the in most of the world—that hateful speech is not "free speech" dates at least to the global post-World War II reckoning with Nazism. Under the paradigm of "group libel," scholars and activists called for new laws prohibiting expressing hatred towards any race or religion. While the laws would cover all races and religions, as well as other protected categories, it's understandable that fighting anti-Semitism was mostly driving the efforts. With some national constitutions, like Germany's, citing human dignity as a paramount constitutional value, most countries soon followed suit.
Those efforts continue to this day: "As a matter of principle," said UN Secretary-General António Guterres in 2019, "the United Nations must confront hate speech at every turn." Indeed, in recent years, countries such as Brazil, Scotland, France, Germany, and South Africa have enacted or introduced new or expanded hate-speech laws that cover online speech or gender identity. But hate speech is notoriously hard to define, and these systems often give wide latitude to officials to decide what these terms even mean and who should be prosecuted, discretion which officials often use in inconsistent and unpredictable ways.
While hate-speech prosecutions in Europe and Canada often target speech criticizing Islam, demonizing immigrants, or questioning transgender rights, Italy has also prosecuted speech opining that the Pope would end up in hell, and Poland has prosecuted a pro-life activist for the (essentially true) claim that a pro-choice advocate was "on the payroll" of "the abortion and contraception" industry. In fact, European national criminal laws authorize imprisonment for acts a broad as: public insults or mockery (Austria); insulting a religious object in a religious space (Belgium); openly insulting any foreign nation (Denmark); and publicly and deliberately insulting a group of people because of their race, their religion, or belief (Netherlands).
The United States took a different path during the twentieth century. Viewpoint-based restrictions are almost never allowed under the U.S. Constitution, even when pertaining to so-called "low-value" speech forms. U.S. courts have consistently rejected the argument that some speech can be categorically banned simply because it is hateful or disrespectful. From the 1960s onward, the Supreme Court has even given First Amendment protection to things like a swastika-brandishing neo-Nazi march through a Jewish community; and it has held that, even within categories of punishable speech (such as "fighting words"), the government generally can't single out racist or otherwise bigoted speech for extra punishment.
How governments are responding to Israel-Gaza protests illustrates these radically diverging constitutional commitments to viewpoint neutrality. European national officials defended some of these pro-Palestinian restrictions primarily on public-order grounds more than stifling hate. But even so, the double standard implies that they view much of anti-Israeli speech as inherently anti-Semitic, and therefore, beyond the pale. This leads to a paradox, in which criticizing Muslims or Arabs as a group can constitute unlawful hate speech, but many expressions of support for Islamic-Arab groups are also prohibited, because of the threat that the government thinks those groups pose.
And yet, self-proclaimed antiracist activists have fought hard for the sort of hate-speech regulations that enable these restrictions—activists who link Palestinian marginalization to broader struggles for decolonization and against structural racism. For instance, one key political goal of the minor left-wing Dutch party, BIJ1, is Dutch recognition of Palestine as a sovereign state. At the same time, one of BIJ1's core objectives is expanding criminal hate-speech laws—even as existing such laws are being used by various national governments to muzzle support for a Palestinian state. Thus far, this irony seems to have been lost on most.
These examples offer a cautionary tale: When empowering the government to decide which beliefs are illegitimate, future policymakers may not use that power in ways you like or anticipate. They may even decide that your own viewpoints are the illegitimate ones—as with the song of South African anti-apartheid activists, "Shoot the Boer (i.e., white farmer)"; gender-critical feminists' insistence that natal sex is critical to sexual orientation; and more recently, Palestinian advocates' calls for a ceasefire and a "free Palestine."
Scholars and activists celebrating new and stronger hate-speech laws might therefore consider Justice Hugo Black's 1952 reaction to a (now largely discredited) decision upholding a conviction for disparaging Black Americans: "If there be minority groups who hail this [development] as their victory," he wrote, they should contemplate Pyrrhus of Epirus's observation: "Another such victory and I am undone."
Kevin Cope (@KevinLynnCope) is an Associate Professor of Law and Public Policy at the University of Virginia, where he teaches Comparative Free Speech Law and serves as co-editor of the Oxford Handbook of Comparative Immigration Law.
UPDATE: The "The United States took a different path …" paragraph was revised slightly to clarify the holding of R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul.
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"Italy has also prosecuted speech opining that the Pope would end up in hell"
Dante put Popes in hell. Could I go to jail for reading Inferno?
Only if you read it out loud, in Italy.
Dante got into all sorts of legal problems during his lifetime, so it wouldn't be out of character.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Alighieri#Exile_from_Florence
Indeed he did!
Point of order!
He didn't PUT them there. He described them as being IN Hell, but this state was not the result of his actions.
This objection obtains even if you were reading Inferno in Italy in the 1320s.
He wrote the book. Everything that transpires is because of the author's will. He put them there. If he didn't, the characters would not have been there.
This is a very incomplete overview. This is as far as the Dutch got: https://www.dutchnews.nl/2024/05/no-masks-no-sleeping-at-uni-protesting-students-are-told/
Incidentally, this is an interesting example of US developments being adopted in other countries without necessarily adapting them to local circumstances. (See also: anti-racism in the Netherlands.) I'm not even sure if these students even checked whether the Dutch universities even have a trust fund that invests in securities.
No sleeping at university mass gatherings?
Oh, just protests. Not psych 101 in a large auditorium. Carry on.
When the Klu Klux Klan has anti-Black protests on campus, then I will believe that the USA tolerates hate speech.
The Gaza protests involve other issues, besides hating Jews.
"The Gaza protests involve other issues, besides hating Jews."
Yeah -- like celebrating attacks on Jews and condemning Jews for fighting back. No, wait...
Ed, it's possible for more than one thing to be true at a time. It is possible to say BOTH that the acts of October 7 were vile and despicable, AND ALSO that what amounts to the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is not the appropriate response. I think Biden got it right.
The acts of Oct 7 were vile and despicable and IF there was ethnic cleansing in Gaza, that would be too. Fortunately, there is not anything like that going on. That is a military hunt for terrorists who are using a willful strategy of hiding behind and among civilian populations and intentionally flouting the laws of war.
You just keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. Tens of thousands of dead civilians say otherwise.
"Tens of thousands of dead civilians say otherwise."
What about the dead civilians in Ukraine? I don't here Democrats saying we're pulling back our weapons support until they have a "credible plan to protect civilians."
Ukraine isn't the one killing Ukrainians, and we're not providing support to Russia, so really not sure what you're talking about.
US weapons aren't killing Ukrainians you inanity.
Would that be the tens of thousands of dead civilians that just disappeared? The ones that even Hamas supporters in the UN can't justify claiming anymore?
I did not use Hamas' number of 35k or whatever it was because you're right; that number is exaggerated. I said "tens of thousands" because that's a reasonable number even if the exact number isn't known. If you have a source with contrary figures, fine.
It's not a reasonable number; it would require that essentially all of the Palestinian casualties be civilians.
And what percentage of Palestinian casualties would you say are civilians?
Given the participation of Palestinians 'civilians' in the Oct7 raid - 0%. None are civilians. They're all part of the paramilitary - they chose to be.
None are civilians, not even the infants and children? Sorry, but that's beyond ridiculous.
And it's also the theory under which Osama bin Laden carried out 9/11 -- all Americans are culpable for what their government does, so terrorize them all.
About 50% to 60%.
Which puts this as one of the safest for civilian wars in modern history. Most modern fighting, especially in urban areas, runs about 3:1 before disease, famine, and non-military violence. That means 1:1 against an opponent that deliberately uses human shields and hides among the civilian populace is downright amazing.
So you didn't use Hamas' numbers - you just took their numbers and divided them by three because 'that feels right'?
Is that what you did?
Did I say that's what I did?
Krycheck_2 said: “I said ‘tens of thousands’ because that’s a reasonable number even if the exact number isn’t know.”
This sounds an awful like just making up evidence of Israeli crime. Is that what you’re doing? Just making up the evidence on the fly?
Note: I am not conceding that such evidence, if it existed, would be dispositive. I am asking if you can even prove that the evidence exists, or provide any source at all beyond “it’s a reasonable number.”
Well, all those dead bodies are evidence of something, and war crimes seems like a good candidate.
I don't know the exact number, and neither do you. Nobody knows Ted Bundy's precise body count either, but enough of an educated guess is available to conclude that he was a bad guy.
And yes, I'm well aware that Israel has redeeming qualities that Ted Bundy lacked so please don't accuse me of comparing Israel to Ted Bundy. I'm merely pointing out that you don't need a precise number to know it's too high.
“All those dead bodies” are evidence of war. War against an armed, trained, and highly-determined enemy that does not hesitate to literally hide behind women and small children. War is not a synonym for ethnic cleansing or genocide.
And again, do you have any evidence of widespread civilian deaths among the Arabs of Gaza? Or are you just making it up?
The relevant difference between Israel and Ted Bundy is that Israel has a good reason for using lethal force, and very plausibly claims to try to use that force in a way which spares people that are not a threat to it. Ted Bundy had no valid or lawful reason to use lethal force, and used it solely against people who posed no threat to him.
I mean, Israel shot some of its own hostages. It's clearly being at least somewhat indiscriminate about who gets killed.
You can always be doing more to protect civilians, just like you can always be doing less.
Randal says: "I mean, Israel shot some of its own hostages. It’s clearly being at least somewhat indiscriminate about who gets killed."
Nope. This is evidence, not that Israel is being indiscriminate, but that perfection is humanly impossible.
Basically, you're mad that Israel isn't being absolutely perfect in how it conducts the war. Of course, no human being has ever been absolutely perfect. So your standard amounts to "Israel should not fight any war ever." Do you apply that standard to non-Jewish powers? Didn't think so.
It's a special standard, created for the purpose of condemning the Jews.
You should read the rest of my post. It makes the same point you just made in far fewer words.
The best word to describe Israel's prosecution of the Gaza war is probably "indifferent".
Unfortunately, that's illegal. (And no, the laws of war were not made to persecute Jews.)
No, the ones who haven't been named yet haven't disappeared.
They did, actually. The "unidentified" people who have come out of the total aren't unidentified because their bodies lacked ID cards in their wallets; they're unidentified because there aren't any bodies. The larger figure is because the Hamas propaganda ministry was adding media reports to actual known deaths, the latter of which is what the Hamas health ministry was reporting.
Rossami can keep telling him- (or her-) self that because it is objectively true.
You can keep telling yourself the anti-Semitic lie that Israel is engaged in anything remotely close to ethnic cleansing.
In your mind, what would it take before it could plausibly be called ethnic cleansing?
In my mind, an ethnic cleansing would require policies that appear to be aimed at achieving a substantial permanent reduction in the [TARGET ETHNICITY] population of [TARGET TERRITORY]. In this case, a substantial permanent reduction of the Arab population of Gaza.
Has Israel attempted such policies? It could have carpet-bombed densely-populated districts of Gaza in the very early days of the war. It did not do that. It could have kept its plans secret, rather than telling Arab civilians "We will be attacking in such-and-such an area; please evacuate for your own safety." It did not do that. It could have not permitted in any food or other humanitarian aid. It did not do that. It could have bombed the Rafah crossing into Egypt and announced "All Arabs in Gaza must leave for Egypt within X hours or face death by bombing power." It did not do that either.
It used targeted attacks in an attempt to minimize Arab civilian casualties. It sent in ground troops, risking their lives, in an attempt to minimize Arab civilian casualties. It publicized its plans, even to the extent of sending texts and phone calls to hundreds of thousands or millions of individual Arab civilians, urging them to get out of the way for their own safety. It refrained, for several months, from attacking the last Hamas stronghold in Rafiah (Rafah), in order to allow for the safe evacuation of as many civilians as possible.
We've seen ethnic cleansing and genocide, many many times in human history. What Israel is doing does not look even vaguely like those things.
The 'Jewish exodus from Muslim countries' where they were forced out or murdered.
Not, you know, a military campaign that takes more care to prevent collateral damage than the US has . . . well, *ever*.
Good example, Incunabulum. Another example would be the expulsion of all Jews from Gaza, what would soon be called the "West Bank," and from the Old City of Jerusalem with the Egyptian and Jordanian occupation of those regions in the course of the Israeli War for Independence.
Fun fact--the Old City of Jerusalem had a Jewish majority in the 1800's, and of course many synagogues. With the Jordanian occupation of the area, the Jewish population of the city instantly dropped to 0, and the synagogues were all demolished.
You've seen comparable reductions in Christian populations in Muslim controlled areas in the Middle East, it just gets less notice. My neighbors back in Michigan were Christian refugees from Jordan.
This is my only quibble with calling Hamas "antisemitic"; They're actually genocidally inclined towards EVERY non-Muslim. "Antisemitic" understates their blood lust.
What the protesters who are smarter than you have realized is that Israel’s only path forward is ethnic cleansing. Best case is a return to permanent occupation a la the West Bank… which can be seen as a slow motion ethnic cleansing (settlements, murders, oppression). And there’s nothing the Palestinians can do about it… Israel will never let them have a state.
A total ethnic cleansing wouldn't even do them any good. Suppose every Gazan Palestinian dropped dead tomorrow. They would still have Iran, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and the Syrians to contend with. The number of dead bodies necessary for the scale of ethnic cleansing that would actually ensure Israel's permanent security would be staggering. It would be a Carthaginian solution on steroids.
And as much as I disapprove of how Israel is handling things in Gaza, I will also acknowledge that Israel doesn't have a lot of other good options.
That may be true, but at least at that point there's not a population of millions living in misery under Israel's guardianship. Solving Palestine is a good clickstop goal even if it doesn't solve every Middle East tension.
Krychek_2 said: "And as much as I disapprove of how Israel is handling things in Gaza, I will also acknowledge that Israel doesn’t have a lot of other good options."
So, what would you have Israel do? Serious question here. I will assume that you agree that Israel must not and cannot simply offer its people for the slaughter. So, what should Israel do? What would you do, if you were in charge of the Israeli response to the Simchas Torah (October 7) Massacre?
Israel must not and cannot simply offer its people for slaughter and I've said from the beginning that my criticism of Israel does not imply approval of Hamas. It does not.
One of the problems with Israel's response is that it's killing lots and lots of little people whereas the people at the top, who are actually running Hamas, have escaped mostly unscathed. (I have read that the leadership of Hamas is living in luxury in Qatar; I don't know how true that actually is.)
So I would find ways to find and punish Hamas leadership. If they are living in Qatar and Qatar knows who and where they are, I would lean hard on Qatar to turn them over for trial. I would drop bombs on their houses. I would send Mossad teams to track them down and kill them. It should be very costly to be a Hamas leader right now and from what I can tell, it's not.
Same principle with Syria's use of chemical weapons against its own people. The US responded by bombing a couple of Syrian military installations. I would have responded by bombing the President of Syria's house, hopefully with him in it, and then telling the world, If you're going to use chemical weapons you personally need to be prepared to die. Go after the people who are actually causing the mischief.
So, what would you have Israel do?
I will point out that it's possible for Israel to be doing the right, proper, and moral thing, and to still be legitimately anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian.
Sometimes there's just no good win-win solution. The Middle East may very well be one of those times.
Randal: “I will point out that it’s possible for Israel to be doing the right, proper, and moral thing, and to still be legitimately anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian.”
Hard disagree. If you support a population in love with murder in preference to people that are doing the “right, proper, and moral thing,” then you are a monster.
Not necessarily. You can still think that the population "in love with murder" doesn't deserve the fate in store for it.
Randal says: "What the protesters who are smarter than you have realized is that Israel’s only path forward is ethnic cleansing."
So you're arguing that Israel is not actually guilty of ethnic cleansing, but it should be treated as if it is guilty of EC because you calculate that this is it's only reasonable option?
"Israel will never let them have a state."
Israel HAS let them have a state, on multiple occasions. In 1948, the new State of Israel consented to the UN division of western Palestine into two states, a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Arab state did not come into being because of total lack of interest among the local Arabs, and because of military action by Egypt (which occupied Gaza), Jordan (which occupied the Old City of Jerusalem and what came to be called the "West Bank"), and their allies.
In 2000, then-PM Ehud Barak agreed to a State of Palestine that would possess all of Gaza, over 70% of the so-called "West Bank" (later to be expanded to over 90%), parts of the Temple Mount (the holiest territory in the world for Jews), and some territory within pre-1967 Israel.
Unwilling to declare an end to the conflict, Yasser Arafat countered by launching the Second Intifada.
In 2005, then-PM Ariel Sharon pushed through a unilateral Disengagement from Gaza, in which Israel removed all of its troops, all of its civilians, and even the graves of its dead from Gaza. They left behind valuable infrastructure for the Arabs, with the explicit hope that the Arabs would turn it in a prosperous and peaceful region under complete Arab rule.
Gaza got the "complete Arab rule;" the "prosperous and peaceful," not so much. The local Arabs destroyed the infrastructure immediately and chose Hamas to lead them, thereby committing themselves to generations of war aimed at killing every Jew in the world.
In 2008 then acting PM Ehud Olmert (Ariel Sharon having suffered catastrophic health collapse, but not yet having died) offered yet another plan for a State of Palestine, which would have involved a unilateral Israeli disengagement from 90% of the so-called "West Bank" and other goodies.
Unwilling to declare an end to the conflict, Mahmoud Abbas (who became President of the Palestinian Authority after the death of Arafat) commenced a strategy of A) refusing to negotiate directly with Israel, B) demanding that foreign governments and international bodies secure his goals for him without requiring him to end the conflict and C) putting a literal price on the head of every Jew in the country via the pay-to-slay program.
That means that every time an Arab attempts to kill Jews, he earns a lifetime pension from the PA; the more Jews he actually kills, the higher the pension. If he dies or is captured, the pension goes to his family.
You seem to enjoy propaganda more than the Hamas sympathizers around here!
I am terribly sorry that actual facts do not bear out your anti-Jewish animus. I am sure you can find fictions more pleasing to your mind in many places.
Just as an example:
with the explicit hope that the Arabs would turn [Gaza] in a prosperous and peaceful region under complete Arab rule.
You can’t be serious. That may be the propaganda, but Gaza was still under Israeli control by virtue of a complete blockade of air, land, and sea. This is like having an election among prison inmates to select the chief potato peeler and calling it self-determination. Ridiculous.
The Israeli weapons blockade was established several years after the Disengagement, in response to the decision of the Arabs of Gaza to choose Hamas for their leadership. The order of events actually matters, Randal.
Had the Arabs of Gaza chosen to use the infrastructure that Israel left behind, and to empower a peace-oriented leadership, the blockade would never have happened. The series of conflicts would never have happened.
Gaza would have been the core of a prosperous Arab state with good-neighbor relations with Israel for over 20 years.
Unfortunately, they bore out Golda Meir's observation that they are more concerned with killing our children than with building a future for their own. "Peace will come when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours."
That's when Israel instituted the full blockade, but even for the two years before that, Israel was using partial blockades to exert control.
But it doesn't matter. Even to the extent it was a good faith effort, it failed spectacularly. I'm sure Israel would like a peaceful solution, but there may not be one to be had.
So I repeat: Israel will never let the Palestinians have a state. That's the Palestinians' fault to a significant extent. But it's not clear how much that matters. Like Krychek has been saying, "It's your fault you made me ethnically cleanse you" doesn't really work.
And no, I'm not saying that Israel is already guilty of ethnic cleansing. But if you're someone who doesn't want to see the Palestinians get cleansed, better to try to stop Israel in advance, don't you think?
No, they don't "say otherwise." Tens of thousands of civilian deaths (which is exxagerated anyway) does not prove ethnic cleansing. Were that the case, then the US and its allies would be guilty of ethnic cleansing in Iraq and Afghanistan, where there were many more civilian deaths.
Doesn't prove it standing alone, no.
So you admit that you posted something false. Good first step.
I never said it proved it standing alone. You put words in my mouth. You are right that admitting you posted something false would be a good first step.
The UN just revised its figures for the total number of seat to 24k from 34k, with the rest, if you read closely, having been totally made up. This leaves approximately 10k dead civilians based on Hamas stats, including those killed by Hamas itself From missiles and Israel, early in the war, and also including which ever civilians died of natural causes, and Hamas chose to include in its wartime casualty figures since no one knows exactly who Hamas is including, and why no one knows how many people this includes.
If Israel were attempting an ethnic cleansing of Gaza, it would have been much faster, would have involved much less targeted weapons, and would have killed at least 10 times as many Arabs.
Israel is trying to break a Nazi-like enemy that is deeply entrenched among a civilian population, and is doing its best to do that with minimum civilian casualties. Nobody, and I do mean nobody, has ever demonstrated a better ability and will to avoid enemy civilian casualties than Israel.
'That is a military hunt for terrorists'
That does not describe what is happening.
That describes exactly what is happening.
You know, what is going on in Gaza reminds me of someone I knew growing up. When one of her five children misbehaved, but she didn't know which one, she would line them up and beat all of them, as many times as necessary, until someone confessed. She thought the unjust beatings were the fault of the culprit who, after all, could have confessed at the beginning and saved his siblings' bottoms from the belt.
Funny, none of her children saw it that way, and she never understood why none of them would have anything to do with her (or each other) once they grew up. No one else who was aware of the situation saw it that way either.
"I'm doing this because you made me do it and it's your fault that I'm doing it" is almost never a viable excuse. Yes, Hamas is responsible for its own actions. As is Israel for its.
"Yes, Hamas is responsible for its own actions. As is Israel for its."
And, it's why taking sides in THEIR insanity is likewise insane.
That woman indeed acted highly improperly. However, while the current war may remind you of her actions, it bears essentially no resemblance to her actions.
Here are some important differences.
1) Her children misbehaved in some childish way. Hamas murdered about 1200 people, not sparing even the infants, using rape and torture as bad as anything in human history. It has also declared its intent to do the same again and again until it has killed every Jew in Israel, and preferably every Jew in the world.
2) She did not know which of her children had misbehaved, and proceeded to target them all for punishment. Israel does know who is responsible for the outrages of October 7 (and threatens to do so endlessly again), and tries to limit its military action to those people, so far as it is able to do so.
3) Those of her children that had not misbehaved had nothing to do with the misbehavior. The civilian Arabs of Gaza, in contrast, overwhelmingly support Hamas, are proud of the massacres of October 7, and offer their assistance to Hamas both in general and in the commission of specific crimes against humanity.
4) She actually punished all of her children. Israel, in contrast, is mainly convicted in the court of public opinion for things which it never did, has no intention of doing, and which exist solely in the imagination of its accusers.
Other than that, you’re right.
There will always be differences between any two situations but the one big similarity is that both she and Israel are willing to punish with violence when they know that at least some of the recipients are innocent. If you're going to critique an analogy maybe focus on the similarity the analogy was intended to point out.
My point is exactly that the two cases are far more dissimilar than similar. Among other dissimilarities, Israel is not trying to punish; it is trying to prevent future outrages on the lines of the Simchas Torah Massacres.
Elsewhere in this thread, you argued that Israel should go after Hamas in Qatar instead of in Gaza. For some reason, there is no reply button there, so I will reply here.
First of all, Israel has very little power to attack Hamas in Qatar. Qatar is a sovereign country far away from Israel, and Israel cannot project substantial force there.
Second, even if Israel would succeed in assassinating the Hamas leadership in Qatar (an outcome of which I would wholeheartedly approve!) that would not end the threat posed by the Hamas army in Gaza.
Third, it would also not free the hostages seized by Hamas in Gaza, who are undoubtedly suffering horrendous abuse to this day–those of them that are still alive, that is.
So, a “Qatar first” strategy suffers from the flaws of being so difficult as to be nearly impossible, and also of failing to achieve the war goals of freeing the hostages and preventing any repetition of the Massacre.
I think that makes it a bad strategy.
And if she were here she would say she wasn't intending to punish; she was intending to teach her children the consequences of not owning up to one's bad acts. You can always find a way to define things however you want the result to turn out.
Do we know what diplomatic steps Israel has taken to try to get Qatar to turn over the Hamas leadership, or quietly look the other way if a team of assassins shows up at their door? Qatar did, after all, help Israel when Iran attacked it; Qatar is savvy enough to know that the entire Middle East would be better off without Hamas. Not having Hamas would be a huge boon to moderate Arab states, like Qatar.
And there is probably nothing that will bring the hostages back at this point. Most of them are probably dead, and Hamas has no real incentive to return them. Hamas doesn't care about the body count in Gaza. The only real weapon against Hamas is to instill fear in its leadership that they, personally, will suffer retribution.
One might be inclined to give Israel's current government more benefit of doubt if (1) it did not have a long record of immoral, unlawful, lethal conduct in the West Bank, (2) its government did not feature multiple war-criming bigots and ethnic-cleansing terrorists, and (3) there were no recent examples of Israel crossing the line (sending civilians to an area, then bombing it, for example) with both feet.
Are there any examples of Palestinians engaging in immoral, unlawful, or lethal conduct, of Palestinian officials who are war-criming bigots and ethnic-cleansing terrorists, or of Palestine crossing the line and targeting civilians? Just curious.
Also I'm not sure if "Israel must be committing war crimes because its officials have been committing war crimes" is the ironclad argument you think it is.
“Israel must be committing war crimes because its officials have been committing war crimes” is the ironclad argument you think it is.
He didn't say that so... you lose.
If English were your first language, you'd understand that "benefit of the doubt" is a signifier in the belief of truth value. The Rev believes Israel is committing war crimes and will not give them the benefit of the doubt. This belief is based on them doing war crimes. Therefore, he believes they're doing war crimes because he believes they're doing war crimes.
What he won't admit is that he believes this because. . . Jews, same as you, Mr. "Jews steal children for converts."
Uh huh.
Plenty of evidence that Palestinians (and Saudis, and Syrians, and others in that neighborhood) have acted indefensibly. I would ditch support for Saudi Arabia simultaneously, for example.
There appear to be no good guys in this context, at least not currently. There are too many undeserving recipients of American assistance, at severe and varied cost.
I see we're being treated to more brilliant reasoning from the same stuck-in-middle-school mind that insists that conferring legal personhood on a fetus for purposes of right-to-life protection would make it liable for the civil tort of "trespass against the person".
You wouldn't know brilliant legal reasoning if it bit you in the butt. And I've corrected you so many times on what I actually said about fetus personhood, with no apparent effect, that I'm no longer going to bother.
Anything that starts with “conferring personhood on a fetus” is more stupid than anything that comes after.
Conferring personhood on a fetus is a legal fiction traditionally used to vindicate criminal laws against a pregnant mother who loses her child as a result of the criminal act. Fetal personhood is also conferred in some jurisdictions for probate claims on behalf of an unborn child. Other, more marginal applications exist, largely through regulatory bodies that may, for example, require a fetus be treated as a person for purposes of bureaucratic records.
None of those things require conferring personhood except possibly the probate one, and I think you just made that up. Do you have a reference?
The stupidity of the "ethnic cleansing" chant cannot be overstated. The most recent figures for the population of Gaza is 2.1 million residents. The current Israeli operations in Gaza began on Oct. 28, 2023, which means that they have been going on for about 91 days. In that time there have allegedly been 35,000 fatalities in Gaza which, given the source is almost certainly an inflated figure.
But let's accept it just for the sake of argument. That's just under 1.7% of the population after 3 months of intense military action, and an average rate of just under 383 deaths/day. Even assuming no replacements, and assuming Israel could sustain that rate for many years (extremely doubtful), at that rate it would take ~15 years to "ethnically cleanse" Gaza.
That's some pretty ineffective ethnic cleansing.
That's a fairly simplistic approach to ethnic cleansing (which, given your 10-watt brain, doesn't surprise me). They don't actually have to kill all the Palestinians; just make Gaza completely unlivable for them so they have to move somewhere else. Jared Kushner is already talking about turning Gaza into seaside resorts. There's been plenty of rhetoric coming out of certain Israeli government officials about annexing it after the Palestinians are gone.
Nothing would please me more than to be proven wrong about this.
You’re not wrong. Ethnic cleansing is Israel’s only option.
Israel could’ve made the West Bank independent already if that’s the direction it wanted to go. Instead it’s tightening its grip there too.
"possible to say"
Perhaps but the pro-Hamas protestors are not "both siding it". They condemn only one side.
Yes, and the pro-Israelis do the same. But the question is what is an objective analysis of the situation and not what partisans on either side are saying.
Calling the Gaza operation "ethnic cleansing" is not "objective analysis".
Same question I posed earlier to someone else: What would it take for you to consider it ethnic cleansing?
Maybe it being based on ethnicity, and involving cleansing? Rather than being based on being in a terrorist organization, and normal warfare?
It's the position of Ben Givr, Smotrich (and, to some degree, Netanyahu), and the low-lifes who support them.
There is no ethnic cleansing of Gaza. That is a just Hamas propaganda. Biden did not get it right; his approach is incoherent.
But the overton window is on the move. The discussion is now about whether or not Israel is / should / will ethnically cleanse Gaza.
Except that there is no ethnic cleaning in Gaza.
Stop accepting the word of Hamas and the Hamas Health Ministry as gospel. These are the people who openly lied about hospitals running out of fuel 'in 36 hours' - for several weeks. They've also been caught lazily faking casualty numbers. The UNRWA office in Gaza held the Hamas server farm. Hamas has openly attacked humanitarian aid entering Gaza.
Hey.
They've got to justify their Jew Hatred SOMEHOW!!!
There was that thing in Charlottesville, Va not too long ago (PEANUTS, of course according to some, but there it is).
I was going to say that the activist groups aren't going to recognize the applicability of Pyrhhus' words, because they always have some "well akshually" explanation as to why it's different when they do it. But you beat me to it. Thanks!
"From the 1960s onward, the Supreme Court has even given First Amendment protection to things like...a cross burning on a Black family's lawn..."
To be clear, there are plenty of viewpoint neutral ways to punish cross-burnings on other people's property. The supreme court invalidated the viewpoint-based statutes that the defendants were punished under, IIUC.
All that courts invalidated in Virginia v. Black, 538 U.S. 343 (2003), was the legal presumption that burning a cross on a lawn was prima facie evidence of intent to intimidate.
It should seldom be hard to show that somebody who burns a cross on the lawn of a Black family’s house had an intent to intimidate (or something similar). As a matter of due process, I agree with the Court that the prosecution should be obliged to actually make that short putt rather than a trial court simply assuming it.
Very informative article, should be standard reading for the protestors.
I have a question for Professor Volokh.
Professor Volokh has generally assumed that the rule that group libel cannot be prohibited has been foundational to the First Amendment from the beginning. But that isn’t so. The Supreme Court upheld a criminal group libel law, essentially a kind of hate speech law with criminal penalties, in 1952, in Beauharnais v. Illinois. The case has never been formally overruled.
It’s true that cases like R.A.V. v. City of St Paul undermined its reasoning. But plenty of liberal precedents have been narrowed or reversed in recent years, bringing the state of the law back to older, more conservative ones. Why not this one?
It seems to me that writing in terms of “this is clearly settled law” invites a Dobbs type response. Roe v. Wade was also once clearly settled law.
True, and one could also question whether the original understanding of the 1st Amendment has been correctly discerned and reflected in the US' semi-revered free speech guarantees.
Perhaps it would be better to let certain sleeping dogs lie?
Thanks -- I discussed this in some detail in this 2020 post, and conclude that "For all these reasons, I think that lower courts should feel no more bound by the reasoning of Beauharnais than they are by Schenck, Abrams, Gilbert, and Gitlow."
>The recent mass arrests of pro-Palestinian demonstrators have left many asking how such suppression can be justified in a free society.
Its not a conundrum. Its pretty clear - speech I support should be left alone, speech I oppose should be suppressed.
They're just upset that speech they support is being suppressed - but they supported the suppression of speech they opposed. The tables were turned and they don't like that one bit.
Their answer will, of course, not be 'maybe we should all have free speech' but 'we should enshrine in law *my* freedom of speech and the suppression of yours'.
Exactly. Many of these same people were championing unruly students shouting down speakers of which they didn't approve or engaging in vandalism of displays that said things they didn't like. Quite often the justification was "They were asking for it".
No they weren’t. Name one “of these same people.”
You're just making yourself angry by imagining up some grievances because you like to be angry.
There is no conundrum about “hate speech.” There are merely people who support the human right of free expression, and people who don’t.
Access to particular forums is a different issue, except where monopolies exist or all the providers are receiving government orders to censor.
Unfortunately, the US government abandoned its neutrality by (I think improperly) legalizing tax funding of propaganda during the Obama administration.