The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Have You Ever Considered That Your Presence Poses a Risk to Other Participants and the Public?"
A question a Polish journalist asked an Israeli contestant (Eden Golan) in the Eurovision Song Contest.
In responding to criticism of the question, the journalist says that he's not anti-Israel (see here), and I have no reason to doubt that. He also notes, "everyone struggles with some thoughts on this matter":
Eden Golan brings risk and danger to Malmo as a singer of her beautiful country - even if it is a broadcasting competition. Crazy supporters of Hamas can take advantage of the situation and the interest in the [Eurovision Song Contest] for various activities. This was the question and nothing else
Here's my thinking: Of course someone has to consider the risk posed by the presence of people who are potential targets for attack—whether prominent Israelis, or Salman Rushdie, targets of crazed nonpolitical stalkers, or anyone else. It's the job of security people to consider those very risks, in deciding how to effectively protect the event (and I hope not in deciding to exclude the potential victim). And of course other people may indeed struggle with their own thoughts on this matter. Worry about risk of violence is a natural human reaction.
But the implication of the journalist's question wasn't, I think, just "Did the risk cross your mind?" Rather, the implication was, "Shouldn't you feel obligated to stay away because of the risk that people might attack you and in the process injure bystanders?," with the answer to that implied question being "Yes."
And that, it seems to me, isn't right. A proper response to such threats of violence generally has to be to defy them, and not to allow them to control our lives, as a matter of law or as a matter of morals. On balance, a norm that requires people to give in to such threats, and to stay away from events because of the risk to bystanders, will cause more long-term harm than a norm that people have the right to ignore such bystander risk. (Just to be clear, if the target of the threat doesn't want to defy it, I don't want to add to her problems by insisting that she defy it—my point is simply that such defiance is a proper response, and not one that should be faulted.)
Here's an analogy from the legal world (and of course I realize that the journalist's question had to do with moral obligations, not legal ones). The case is Governors Ridge Office Park Association v. McBrayer (Ga. Ct. App. 2021), where neighbors sued an abortion clinic owner for nuisance, partly on the grounds that
[McBrayer] knowingly brought with [him] a substantial risk of physical harm and property damage to [neighbors], [and] instilled a fear that a clinic of Dr. McBrayer might be bombed again, and their physical safety, lives and buildings might be threatened by activities such as the arson fire-bombing in May 2012 of the clinic in the Park operated by [McBrayer].
A jury awarded neighbors $1.5 million. (For an overseas zoning law analog, consider the Australian court decision upholding a refusal to allow a building permit for a synagogue because it could be a terrorist target, given "[t]he threat situation with respect to Jewish communities around the world and Australia.") And the anti-abortion activist group Operation Rescue hailed this as a means for fighting abortion clinics more generally:
This case is important because it gives other office park associations a template to follow when abortion businesses move in and cause disruptions…. We urge office parks where abortion businesses are located to sue for nuisance they cause.
They (the abortion clinics) cause the nuisance, Operation Rescue was arguing—not the protesters (such as Operation Rescue members) who come to protest, or the arsonists who try to or threaten to burn down the clinic and thus endanger its neighbors. And while the Operation Rescue statement of course didn't urge violent attacks or threats, the logic of the decision created an incentive for such attacks or threats—after all, the office parks' suit for the "nuisance [the clinics] cause" relies in large part on the presence of such criminal conduct on the part of the anti-abortion movement's violent fringe.
But the Georgia Court of Appeals reversed the verdict, relying in part on something like a right to defy:
If we were to hold that a legally-operated abortion clinic cannot even operate in a commercial office park zoned for medical practices without constituting a nuisance we would be, in effect, holding that such clinics cannot properly operate anywhere. As [amici curiae] correctly point out, such a holding could be used to expose a broad array of legal businesses and institutions to nuisance liability due to the fact that some find them controversial and some will protest their very existence.
Both legal protestors and criminals have caused disruption around a multitude of business and institutions, such as gun shops, fur retailers, Chick-Fil-A restaurants, police departments, synagogues, statehouses, Black churches, adult entertainment establishments, and mosques, to name a few. Under the common law, property ownership in Georgia does not guarantee only ideologically-aligned neighbors whose business practices will cause no upset or attract no controversy, and we will not hold otherwise.
For more, see The Right to Defy Criminal Demands, which also links this to many other legal examples. (Note that I filed a friend-of-the-court brief in the McBrayer case.) Thanks to Prof. Ellen Bublick for the pointer to the journalist's question story.
UPDATE: My original post overstated things slightly in the "proper response" paragraph. I've tinkered with it slightly and added the parenthetical to make clear that I don't demand defiance from the potential target of the attack (who has problems enough without my adding to them with such demands)—I only demand that we accept such defiance if that is the potential target's choice.
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The response to such threats of violence generally has to be to defy them, and not to allow them to control our lives, as a matter of law or as a matter of morals.
That seems callous, and not an accurate description of the empathy that people rightly have for others. If I know that me turning up somewhere is going to endanger or inconvenience the other people who are there, that is absolutely going to enter into my decision as to whether to attend or not.
Of course, in this specific instance I agree on the outcome. Of course Israel should perform at the Eurovision.
The consequences of routinely and by default submiting to threats is much more to have much more dire long term consequences to everyone's life than the very small risk of a Eurovision terror attack, or assassination attempt.
Who said anything about routinely submitting to threats?
Oh, just Jews, right?
" If I know that me turning up somewhere is going to endanger or inconvenience the other people who are there,"
Isn't that a given whenever (any) POTUS goes anywhere?
And it's worse in Boston due to geology, and heaven forbid Brandon be considerate enough to land in Manchester (NH) and spend an extra 20 minutes coming down I-93.
It's a fair question to ask. And the response could be interesting. Journalists' jobs are to ask these sorts of questions.
And of course, any normal person's reaction would be that it does cross one's mind.
The response should really be, "Have you ever considered that I'm not the one creating the risk?"
That was true for Salman Rushdie too. But that doesn't change the fact that he didn't just go over to people's houses for tea during the peak of the threats against him.
Who would invite him?
"That was true for Salman Rushdie too. But that doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t just go over to people’s houses for tea during the peak of the threats against him."
So, pro-heckler's veto?
So, why do you allow whiners and bitchers make decisions for all? Why not arrest the whiners and bitchers?
Plenty of efforts were made to arrest the people who were after Rushdie. But it's not always easy to catch terrorists.
You're obviously not qualified to be a London Bobby.
Ironic he mentions Salman Rushdie, where people did attack, and at least in the case of his book interpreter at a press conference, murder someone.
A bookstore took his book off the shelves "to protect their employees", which was criticised. Whether they could be sued because a maniac murdered an employee or customer over it seemed wrong.
How was it wrong?
An in-your-face reply which would not be advisable for an actual contestant but would be great for an internet forum like this:
"Yes, I have considered it, and find that I am in no more danger here than anywhere else. If my presence increases the danger for you, then it is unfortunate for you that the 'final solution' wasn't as final as you might have preferred."
Sure, that would be a great way to inform the world that you're a selfish asshole. But most people find it prudent to hide their selfishness at least a little bit.
What's selfish about it? The fact that she decided to let Hamas menace one group of people rather than a different group of people?
What's she supposed to do, retire to a deserted island?
What part of "I don't care about your safety" isn't selfish?
Have you never considered that your attitude encourages violence? If you care about other people's safety, you should immediate stop spreading that dangerous opinion, because violent criminals might be encouraged to go commit crimes because of it.
You selfish asshole.
/s (sort of)
So, you DO think she should relocate to a deserted island!
Who?
"Electing" (installing) someone like Joe Biden has endangered the USA and others.
Those supporting someone like Joe Biden are likewise endangering countless millions of people around the World.
So, Joe Biden and his supporters are what ? ( an old joe is already a selfish asshole, but can he go even more so ? )
That's why somebody in a popularity contest like Eurovision has to always give political answers.
Though it really makes no difference. She's going to come in last place anyway.
Actually I was watching the BBC cover Eurovision just an hour or so ago, and she is among the 3 or 4 favorites.
Martinned2: Can you elaborate, please, on just when defying criminal demands makes you a "selfish asshole"? Was Dr. McBrayer a selfish asshole for not relocating his abortion clinic to some more secluded place, where there won't be neighbors endangered by possible future firebombing? What if a woman knows that she has an angry ex as a stalker, and he has attacked her in the past, causing some collateral damage -- is she a selfish asshole for going to public places where similar attacks might happen again? Or what if an interracial or same-sex couple knows that kissing or holding hands in public in their town can lead people to attack them, thus triggering a fight that might injure bystanders -- are they selfish assholes for continuing to display affection for each other in public?
"Was Dr. McBrayer a selfish asshole for not relocating his abortion clinic to some more secluded place, where there won’t be neighbors endangered by possible future firebombing?"
No, that's not the reason he was a selfish asshole.
"What if a woman knows that she has an angry ex as a stalker, and he has attacked her in the past, causing some collateral damage — is she a selfish asshole for going to public places where similar attacks might happen again?"
If she were a really selfish asshole, she might seek out public places, thinking she might be safer in public.
Some people are so thoughtless.
She might even ask co-workers and acquaintances to walk her to her car and such, heedless of the risk she's exposing them to.
Can you elaborate, please, on just when defying criminal demands makes you a “selfish asshole”?
When you do it with utter indifference for the safety of anyone but yourself.
Was Dr. McBrayer a selfish asshole for not relocating his abortion clinic to some more secluded place, where there won’t be neighbors endangered by possible future firebombing?
He would have been if the thought hadn't even occurred to him, or if he'd reacted to someone suggesting it by saying that other people's houses being burned down wasn't his problem.
Well you do know who the real selfish assholes are:
Terrorists.
People who try to destroy the Magna Carta to get attention for their campaign to take us back.to the stone age.
People who block freeways trying to make you care what they think.
People who disrupt universities, and block Jews from going on campus because they think everyone should give in to their demands.
I don't know about "selfish", but yes.
She's not Bibi Netanyahu.
Her only "crime" is, as far as I am aware, being an Israeli citizen. Maybe she should kill herself? Could that help?
WTF are you talking about?
Why would a peaceful protest lead to anyone being in danger?
If Eurovision turns into the Munich Olympics, who will be blamed?
If you know there is a threat and do nothing you deserve the blame.
If Eurovision turns into the Munich Olympics, then I think Europeans are going to decide Israel is probably right about the need to cleanse Rafah of terrorists.
If they'd attack a peaceful competition in Malmo, then nobody is safe anywhere until they are dead.
The abortion analogy is outdated, as if it were still 2020.
Now states can simply declare abortion clinics to be public nuisances *because* they're abortion clinics.
It was a reference to an actual case, which was decided before Dobbs.
And thus outdated.
No. They instead would declare them criminal conspiracies in states where abortion was illegal -- and the principle of the case would stand elsewhere.
"I see that you're Polish and probably not as accustomed to the sight of Jews as your ancestors were."
The answer to the question is, that civilization depends on the rule of law and not permitting threats of violence to be used to shut down a view or exclude someone. Rewarding bad behavior only invites more bad behavior. If she were to stay away, that would reward the threateners, and encourage the same behavior for anything the threateners don't like or disagree with. Next time, someone who doesn't like some Polish policy will threaten violence if a Pole like the journalist shows up. Or substitute any other policy someone feels strongly about -- guns, climate change, abortion, you name it.
If the threat is really that bad, then the whole event should be cancelled, and the organizers should apologize that threats of violence have ruined it for everyone.
"If the threat is really that bad, then the whole event should be cancelled"
Yes, exactly, either hold the event - Jews and all - or don't hold it.
“I only demand that we accept such defiance if that is the potential target’s choice.”
Professor, do the bystanders have any say in this at all? Are they (morally) allowed to walk away or do they have some moral obligation to accept the risk?
If so, it seems like you've created a meta-heckler's veto where you're free to not care about insipid Europop, unless someone threatens it, then you've got to go be a human shield.
Heckler's veto boils down to idealism versus short-term pragmatism in a lot of cases.
Yes, in an ideal world you do not allow speech to be shut down due to the current or anticipated bad actions of some other group.
But in the real world, there are immediate costs and benefits and risks all over the place.
Moreover, as has been noted above, over the long-term sticking to the idealistic response has practical benefits to civic society as well.
But it is very easy to say what decision must be made from a keyboard. I am disappointed when folks cede to the pull of the now, but only moderately so.
Here is a solution.
Punish the bad actors.
As discussed above, if the risks are too great, cancel the event itself, don't edit the event to suit terrorist preferences.
In other words, better no contest at all than a Jew-free contest tailored to meet terrorist specifications.
As discussed above, if the risks are too great, cancel the event itself
How is that not giving in to a heckler's veto???
You were just arguing in support of the Heckler's Veto just the other day in that thread about the kid who lawfully said "illegal alien" but got suspended.
As far as I can tell, your position boils down to, "The heckler's veto is only bad when I personally find it objectionable." You've propounded a decision method so vague you can always make it come out your way.
I wasn't really talking about what the best decision is at all.
So no, that's nothing like what I said, Brett.
But of course, when you don't understand what I'm saying you fill in till you get to bad faith again.
When should someone engaging in risky behavior be responsible for the expense of public efforts to maintain their safety, and when is that exactly what they pay taxes for?
If someone goes on a long hike without telling anyone where they are going or when they’ll be back, are they responsible for “rescue” efforts prompted by worried friends?
Does hosting a “draw Mohamed in drag” contest make one responsible for extra security measures?
Does building a house surrounded by dry brush make one liable for extra firefighting efforts?
The risky behavior involved here being 'Being Jewish in Europe'?
You've misplaced the cause of the safety concern. This isn't an action that Eden Golan has taken to endanger her safety or anyone else's. Being Jewish is an immutable characteristic and not a choice. The choice is someone else deciding to hate Jews so much they are willing to harm anyone that might be near by. Your example is entirely chosen and avoidable actions on the part of the subjects you describe. Even choosing to be Christian, Jewish or Muslim does not require any of them to subsidize protection from those that have chosen to hate.
Don't get carried away--this is just imagined risk.
The answer is that the European authorities are free to expend as many resources as they want to mitigate the risk, from increased security at the event to dedicating more resources to solving the larger problem. It's not on her to pay the cost of European public safety.
No one is suggesting it is.
I'm actually outraged they ever allowed her to compete in Eurovision in the first place.
On what map is Israel in Europe?
The same one where Australia is in Europe
The other map where Israel is in Europe is UEFA's ... the successful heckler's veto there dates back a long way.
https://apnews.com/article/uefa-israel-european-soccer-dd8904f7cbd6e6080a6486b79b28eb0b
Nominally, Israel and Israeli clubs may have chosen to play in the European tournaments, but the real problem is anti-Israeli terrorism.
The Eurovision is open to any country that is in the European Broadcasting Area which extends to all of North Africa and much of the Middle East, including Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:European_Broadcasting_Area.svg
So broadcast colonialism is a thing now, and its ok?
At night, Boston’s WBZ-AM radio reaches portions of 37 states and much of Atlantic Canada. Even during the day it can be clearly heard throughout much of Maine, 150 or more miles away.
By contrast , it’s only 87 miles from Sicily to North Africa, and as this all started a century ago with AM radio (FM & TV coming later), I would not be surprised to learn that markets developed in places where the European stations could reach.
And there are a variety of ways to extend a TV signal across the Med — a satellite probably the easiest — and the issue here is not colonialism but that of a superior culture — and capitalism.
The Islamic world could produce its own TV shows and make them available via the same satellites — eg Al Jazeera — but it doesn’t.
She should have asked: "Do you feel bad about Poland's provoking World War II by failure to yield the Nazis the lebensraum they needed? Not to mention your provocative reclaiming of Poznan from its Prussian landlords after World War I? Wouldn't the world have been much better off, and many lives have been saved, if you had yielded gracefully?"
Many people, faced with the Nazi threat, made exactly that calculation. Do you feel good about yourself telling them they were wrong from behind your keyboard?
Geez. No wonder we had to save you guys!
You had to save "my guys" because you have an ocean between you and any conceivable enemy (at least after you'd finished genociding the enemies who were there originally), while "my guys" have borders with lots of foreign countries who, at the time, wanted to attack us.
We had borders with both Quebec and Mexico....
I doubt that the Polish journalist would have the intellectual consistency to take that line: the purpose of my question is to embarrass him. If he did take the surrender monkey line, I would consider him contemptible and end the discussion.
It’s exactly the position the Hamas supporters have consistently argued on this blog. If a Hamas attack results in bystanders being injured, it’s always Israel and Israelis’ fault.
Professor Volokh’s answer simply doesn’t address this position. The whole point of this position is that THIS INCLUDES ANY ACTIONS OF SECURITY PEOPLE. The presence of security people might lead them to take actions that migbt result in bystanders being injured, and THAT WOULD BE ISRAEL’S FAULT.
After all, the whole point of the position is that any action taken to protect an Israeli that causes any accidental injury to any non-Israeli is always a deliberate attempt to murder the non-Israeli. Protecting Israelis is simply never justifiable if it risks causing anyone else any injury. Which is just a long way of saying attempting to protect an Israeli is never justifiable, period.
What does Professor Volokh think protests over Gaza are about? They are protests against the very security people Professor Volokh is suggesting be called for! In light of the massive protests against the security people, how can he possibly expect journalists who support the protesters to suddenly about-face and support the very security for Israelis they are protesting against? Has he been living under a rock these past few months?
You could have just instead written that you don't understand the discussion. Yours is just as clear on that point, but unnecessarily long.
This brings to mind:
(Mark Steyn, 2015)
Yesterday the Swedish city of Umea held a Kristallnacht commemoration without any Jews - who were excluded on the grounds that it would be "unsafe" for them to attend.
Wouldn't it be easier just to hold another Kristallnacht?
Oh, give it a year or two...
The reporter might as well have asked,
It would be a shame if his house is in the zone set aside for the 7 million Jews who out of consideration for their neighbors agree to "go back to Poland."