University of Illinois Relocates Demonstration [UPDATE: Demonstrators Return, University Threatens Arrest and Suspension]

UPDATE 4/29/2024, 12:05 am: Here's an item circulated Sunday evening:

We write this evening to let the campus community know that demonstration activity began on the south end of the Main Quad several hours ago. This is a resumption of Friday's activities. The demonstrators were again informed of the policies and rules for activities in this area. Members of the group began setting up tents and other structures that are in violation of the rules and policies as explained to them. They have been told that violations of our rules or of state or local laws are subject to consequences including arrest, and for university students, interim suspension.

President Killeen and I offered to meet directly with representatives of the group this evening to discuss their questions and concerns if they would remove the tents and structures. This offer was refused.

We respect the rights of freedom of speech and expression and remain committed to providing a safe environment for all members of our community. Demonstrators in compliance with university policies are allowed to remain in public space as long as they continue to abide by university policies and state and federal laws. These measures are in place to maintain the physical safety of our campus and so that all campus community members can continue to benefit from the academic experience we are here to provide.

University classes and activities are expected to continue as usual tomorrow.

ORIGINAL POST:

From a Friday statement by the university president:

We write to ask all students, staff and faculty to avoid the area near Wright and Green Streets in front of the Illini Union until further notice. This area has been the site of a demonstration that began early this morning and that has included unlawful and impermissible conduct by some. Despite our continued efforts throughout the day to ensure those who were participating were fully informed of the policies and rules that they needed to follow to continue their activities, the participants refused to adhere to them.

This afternoon, when university police officers attempted to escort university staff into the area to remove the encampment structures violating university policy, members of the demonstrating group prevented their entry and physically resisted. This included use of pieces of lumber as well as other physical tools and objects to push the officers back. Our officers made the decision to deescalate the situation and stepped back to reduce the risk of injury to themselves or the demonstrators.

This situation has escalated beyond a peaceful expression of opinion. Those who do not comply with our orders to leave will be subject to consequences, including arrest, when criminal laws are violated, and the possibility of immediate interim suspension for students.

We will continue to work to convince the demonstrators to end their activities and disperse voluntarily, and we hope they make that choice.

We have worked very hard over the past months to allow all of those in our community to gather in our public spaces and express themselves freely and safely. Our entire community is feeling grief, empathy and compassion at the enormous loss of innocent lives that we've all seen.

Our community is not responsible for the progression of this conflict, and we do not have the power to end this devastating war no matter how much we wish we could. We are focused right now on what we can do to keep our entire campus and community as safe as possible in a difficult time.

We are asking now for your help in doing so by staying clear of this area.

And from the president's statement three and a half hours later:

I write to tell you that we have reached a peaceful resolution that has ended the demonstration outside of the Illini Union.

The demonstration participants will immediately dismantle their encampment and leave this location. We have agreed to allow them to temporarily relocate their activities to the public access green space west of Gregory Avenue and north of Oregon Street. We reached this compromise to avoid a physical confrontation that would endanger demonstrators and our police officers alike. This presence will be permitted through the conclusion of  a meeting with some event organizers that was already scheduled for Monday afternoon.

This location will limit the disruptions to campus operations. The demonstrators will restrict their activities to a strictly defined area. We also will be able to maintain a wider area of separation between the demonstrators and our academic operations on Monday.

We are trusting the participants to honor their agreement with us in the interest of public safety. We have reached a very clear understanding with the participants that we will take immediate action to disperse the group if their activities present any new safety risks or violations of state or local law.

I understand that this resolution will likely frustrate members of our community who have strong opinions on both sides of this issue. I made this decision after careful and lengthy consultation with our police department, the university administration and local authorities. I believe this path offered us the safest way forward for all involved with the least continuing disruption to our students, faculty and staff as they prepare for their final week of the semester.

Thanks to Joe Lehman for the pointer; see also this article from WCIA (Bradley Zimmerman & Heather Robinson).

Comments

[DaveM]

Well, better than nothing I suppose. Personally, I never understood this desire to “negotiate” with people who are flagrantly breaking the rules. I’ve seen this with young parents sometimes when dealing with misbehaving children, and it always seemed to just exacerbate the suffering of everyone involved. A firm hand doesn’t need to be despotic, it just needs to be fair — and then absolutely insisted upon.

A clear statement of consequences is vital. That seems to be missing here. You have to keep your promises when it comes to passing sentence. Otherwise it's not fair, and they won't listen to you.

[Jonathan Affleck]

Exactly, the Zionist baby-killer state is perpetrating a textbook genocide before the eyes of the world!

If a state perpetrates genocide, it belongs to the same category to which a cannibal state belongs. The international community has an obligation to obliterate the IDF and to abolish the Zionist baby-killer state.

No Zionist can be allowed to roam freely on the planet. A movement for genocide and a movement for anti-genocide cannot coexist. The University of Illinois must immediately expel all Zionist students and fire all Zionist staff and faculty.

If the University of Illinois fails to purge itself of Zionism, top management at the University of Illinois must be arrested to be tried for RICO violations.

Perpetrating genocide, conspiring in genocide, attempting genocide, inciting genocide, and material support to genocide are are US federal crimes.

Biden must be arrested to be tried, almost certainly convicted, and sentenced to the gallows for perpetration of the US federal capital crime of genocide.

A special presidential gallows should be erected for a presidential necktie party in front of the Washington Monument. Stretching of the presidential neck should be broadcast worldwide.

[Jonathan Affleck]

A Hamas fighter is a hero. A Zionist like a Nazi is an enemy of the human race.

The US federal judiciary, the ICJ, and the ICC have jurisdiction over the crime of genocide.

When the ICJ heard SA’s genocide argument, the president of the ICJ was an American that worked for the State Department for many years. She and the ICJ as a whole found SA’s accusation of genocide plausible.

At this point, US AG should dispatch the FBI to arrest every US Zionist to be tried, almost certainly convicted, sentenced, and sent to prison or to the gallows.

On Dec 11, 1946, the international community banned genocide and made this ban jus cogens. No compromise is permissible with a state violator of jus cogens. The international community must obliterate the IDF and abolish the State of Israel.

International law is pellucid on the criminality of Zionism, of every Zionist, and of the Zionist baby-killer nation.

Nazi Germanization is no less a crime and no less genocide when Zionism renames Germanization to Judaization.

Because Palestinians are darker non-Europeans, from Dec 1947 onward the white states gave the Zionist colonial settlers a pass to commit genocide with impunity approximately one year after the international community banned genocide. The mere existence of the Zionist state negates the international anti-genocide legal regime and undermines international law because no one can take international law seriously if international law is not enforced uniformly and equally. Since its founding 75 years ago, the Zionist state has been a suppurating festering cancerous tumor in international law and on the surface of the planet.

In resolution 260 A (III) of December 9, 1948, the UNGA approved the International Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and proposed the Convention for signature and ratification or accession by means of General Assembly resolution 260 A (III) of December 9, 1948. The Convention entered into force January 1951, in accordance with its article XIII.

Apartheid and persecution of Palestinians under Zionist domination are byproducts of the ongoing genocide. In addition, apartheid and persecution are directed to “deliberately inflicting on the [Palestinian] group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.” The Zionist colonial settlers hoped that Palestinians would be pressured into leaving their stolen homeland. Instead, when Netanyahu started his latest term in Dec 2022, the native Palestinian population under Zionist domination had become larger than the Zionist colonial settler population, and the Palestinian population was much younger than the Zionist colonial settler population is.

The Zionist colonial settlers have become crazed and frantic. Since Dec 2022, the attacks of Zionist colonial settlers on Palestinians, on Palestinian property, and on Palestinian communities have been steeply increasing. Zionist colonial settlers have kidnapped and imprisoned thousands of Palestinians. Zionist colonial settlers have been terrorizing Palestinian children and schools. Zionist colonial settlers have besieged Palestinian religious sites. Zionist colonial settlers have stepped up efforts of Judaization of Jerusalem and of Hebron.

Hamas is a native resistance movement within stolen Palestine and hardly differs from a native resistance movement in Nazi-occupied Europe. Just as the Nazis called the native resistance terrorist, the Zionists and their supporters call Hamas terrorist even though Hamas like the French or Polish resistance to the Nazis is heroic. On Oct 7, 2023, Hamas reacted to the unspeakable barbarism of the Zionist regime and had no other way to force the State of Israel to negotiate except by taking colonial settler prisoners.

The kibbutzim of the Gaza Envelope are military bases
1. that are intended to make irreversible the ongoing genocide, which started in Dec 1947 and
2. that have been been camouflaged with civilians that have the role of human shields.

A native resistance movement like Hamas is fully justified in attacking such military bases. The civilian residents of such military bases are not protected noncombatants because they serve a military purpose, and only a moron parties with the depraved unprotected noncombatant residents of the Gaza Envelope.

Hamas broke out of Gaza to seize Zionist colonial settlers so that they could be traded for kidnapped Palestinians and for a cessation of attacks on Palestinian religious sites. The US federal code defines such hostage taking for exchange to be a legitimate non-criminal act during a war that has no international character. See 18 U.S. Code § 2441 – War crimes. The occupation exists because the state of war has never ended.

When Zionist forces understood the actions of Hamas fighters, the Zionist military perpetrated unspeakably heinous and random slaughter in accord with the Hannibal Directive. Zionist military seems to have caused practically all civilian casualties and deaths during Oct 7.

The incompetent but depraved, murderous, and genocidal Golani Brigade collapsed.

In response, the Zionist regime has revenged itself on the Palestinian population by destroying Gaza just as Nazi forces destroyed Warsaw. Even though genocide is not a legal or legitimate response to any act, the Zionist regime has achieved the grand slam of crimes of genocide:
• mass murder genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IIa),
• physical and psychological maiming genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IIb),
• hostile conditions genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IIc),
• birth prevention genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IId), and
• child-kidnapping genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IIe, mostly in the West Bank).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2441

[Please, Daivd, Seek Help]

Hey man you keep posting this stuff but you just sound like a crazy person. Like I have no objection to your position as being anti-Israel or describing their actions in arbitrarily strident terms but you talk like a crazy person. Everyone who sees your posts thinks "this is a guy who's off his meds".

You sound like a sovereign citizen when you talk about the law as a magical puzzle box that you've solved. You make it clear you're not arguing for a new interpretation of the law or a novel strategy for political actors trying to hold their enemies to account, but rather that the teleological cosmic force of the law _is_ what you say it is, but no one thinks it's this. It's very weird.

You sound creepy. If you talk like this in real life, even people who agree with you are going to worry you're about to be a school shooter.

You sound like someone who needs immediate and serious clinical intervention. I think you should find someone who shares your point of view, who you should respect, and really try to read into the way they conduct themselves in public and try to ask yourself why they don't sound like a crazy person. You sound like the people that send university departments bulk conspiracy theory emails about free energy. It's very offputting. There are lots of people here who I think are wrong, or rude, or don't conduct themselves very well online but there are only a few people here who seem to be going through something clinical.

[Jonathan Affleck]

I am the opposite of a Sovereign Citizen advocate. I support US law. The US government should enforce its anti-genocide law. The Zionist baby-killer nation is perpetrating an obvious mass murder genocide before the eyes of the world.

It is likely that senior officials of the Zionist baby-killer nation are about to be charged by the ICC. Such charges have direct implications for the USA because US anti-genocide law, while much harsher than international anti-genocide law, is anchored in international anti-genocide law.

US organizations and individuals violate material support law if they collaborate with the government of the Zionist baby-killer state. Many US Zionist individuals should be arrested, tried, almost certainly convicted, sentenced, and sent to prison or to the gallows for the US federal capital crime of genocide.

The enforcement of US anti-genocide law against the US Zionist movement will cure US society, academia, and government of many problems with which the USA is afflicted.

A depraved Zionist propagandist like PLEASE, DAIVD, SEEK HELP invariably makes an accusation of mental defect when he is confronted with the facts or truth.

US Zionists are in fear of the breakdown Zionist cultural hegemony as an increasing number of Americans realize that the State of Israel is perpetrating genocide and has been committing genocide since it came into existence. From the standpoint of international law, the Zionist baby-killer state belongs in the same category to which a cannibal state belongs. The IDF must be obliterated, and the Zionist state must be abolished.

[Noscitur a sociis]

Hey man you keep posting this stuff but you just sound like a crazy person.

Gee, I wonder why!

[Jonathan Affleck]

The vast majority of the human race agrees with me, and the proportion of the US population, which considers the Zionist baby-killer to commit genocide is steadily increasing.

[jdgalt1]

Agree. Calling for the execution of the fake president is beyond the pale, which is why I flagged Affleck's post doing so.

[Jonathan Affleck]

It's an interesting question and should be discussed.

Can the president commit genocide in his official capacity?

Is Biden above the law? If he has with specific intent committed the US federal capital crime of genocide, should he be tried, almost certainly convicted, and sentenced to the gallows?

Why do you think that the administration is so insistent that the State of Israel has not committed genocide? An international finding of genocide has direct ramifications in US law.

Biden was the lead Senate sponsor of 18 U.S. Code § 1091 - Genocide. Biden is a lawyer. The US legal definition of genocide is not complex. Biden knows that he is perpetrating genocide. He doesn't care. Biden is the worst, most depraved, and most evil president in history. Trump's possible criminal actions are penny ante by comparison. For the integrity of the US political and legal system, Biden must be subject to the operation of law.

[DaveM]

You know as well as I do that if Hamas were to release its hostages and lay down its arms, this conflict would end instantly.

Hamas has refused every cease fire. It wants the war to continue.

And, apparently, so do you.

[Scooter]

For some people, the world will never be as "Judenfrei" as they wish.

[Jonathan Affleck]

I am Jewish, and because I am Jewish, I want the world to be Nazi-frei and Zionist-frei. A Zionist is a Nazi either in peyos or in a sheitel.

[David Nieporent]

I am Jewish,

False.

[Jonathan Affleck]

Depraved Zionist invaders have been murdering Palestinians since Ottoman times.

In the Dec 1947, the depraved Zionist invaders put into operation the genocide, which they planned since 1881. This genocide will not have ended until Palestinians return to their homes, property, villages, and country.

If Hamas laid down its arms and returned the hostages, which by international and US law are not protected noncombatants and were legitimately taken prisoner for hostage exchange, the IDF would immediately resume the ongoing genocide to its bloody murderous conclusion.

The murderous genocidal Zionist mentality and goal has not changed since 1881. There is no place on the planet for a Zionist.

[Krayt]

Dude, Arab countries have been murdering Palestinians since ancient times. I know a Palestinian Jordanian, who moved to the US decades ago, who can tell you all about the government there plowing his and other villages back into the desert. There is zero solidarity with them except in recent years, a false solidarity, so they can be used to attack the Israeli Jews on the international stage.

It's literally the oldest dictator trick in the book, focus your people's hatred on a small internal, or larger external threat, so they don't get mad at you for being a shitty dictator.

[Jonathan Affleck]

A depraved supporter of the Zionist baby-killer nation invariably discloses his Nazi mentality. The Nazis tried to normalize genocide of Jews by pointing out that no country wanted the Jews that the Nazis drove out of Nazi-controlled territories.

[VinniUSMC]

Oh look, Misek's best friend "Affleck" spouting off bullshit Nazi propaganda again. You're a special kind of evil, calling Hamas heroes. The people who want to eradicate all Jews. Fuck you, you're a worthless shit-eating Nazi. Fly yourself to Gaza and STFU.

[Jonathan Affleck]

My relatives fought the Nazis in Poland and in Ukraine during WW2. We know bloothirsty genocidal monsters when we see them.

A Zionist defecates on the memory of my father's murdered family when the Zionist tries to use the memory of the victims of the mass murder genocide, which is called the Nazi Holocaust of Jews, to legitimize, to normalize, and to justify the mass murder genocide, which is the Zionist Holocaust of Gaza Palestinians.

The Nazis were defeated in 1945, but Zionists, who are Nazis either with peyos or in sheitels, accepted the the baton of genocide from the Nazis and have been continuously perpetrating genocide against Palestinians since Dec 1947.

The Zionist baby-killer nation has for 77 years been a suppurating festering cancerous tumor in international law and on the surface of the planet.

Genocide Joe Biden is the first US president to have abused the presidency to perpetrate a US federal capital crime. Biden must be removed from office so that he can be arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced to the gallows.

In order to reestablish the integrity of the US government, Biden's neck should publicly and by operation of law be stretched on the lawn in front of the Washington monument.

[Krayt]

You sound like that guy who used to be around here who managed to get himself kicked, claiming formal logic dictates violent response.

[Jonathan Affleck]

American supporters of the Zionist baby-killer state are ethically-clueless racists.

A group subjected to genocide at the hands of a first set of genocide-perpetrators (e.g., Nazis) can later themselves form a second set of genocide-perpetrators (e.g., post-Judaism Zionists) just as evil as the first set of genocide-perpetrators.

[Dr. Ed 2]

At this point the admin should simply admit that they are at the mercy of the thugs.

Or shoot them.

It's the only thing that will work because the Soros DAs won't prosecute. So shoot them.

[jimc5499]

You're missing the point. The people in charge of the University agree with the protesters, but, don't have the balls to admit it. That's why they keep on saying that they are "negotiating" instead of suspending, expelling or having the protesters arrested for trespassing.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Agreed. We have long known which side they are on...

[Nige]

Whether they agree with them politically or not, they have a duty of care to the students and some responsibility for their welfare, and self-interest in not stripping the campus of students and signalling an extreme hostility to forms of youthful political activism. Only fucking idiots want to see them hurt and/or excessively punished for engaging in a protest. Any university that succumbs to demands for either, or who actually think either would be appropriate, is a disgrace.

[damikesc]

It's cute that after the rather obvious massive problem of plagiarism in academic institutional leadership that you still believe any of them are really that intelligent.

[Nige]

Massive? What, two or three black women officials targeted with extremely dodgy claims of plagiarism? Fronted by a right-wing billionaire whose wife was immediately revealed to be an actual plagiarist? The issue isn't intelligence, it's moral cowardice in trying to appease a bunch of cynical right-wing reactionaries who want to destroy universities.

[Krayt]

They don't have the balls. They don't necessarily agree, and just seek to not stand for anything that might garner criticism, or, gah, potentially risk congressional termination of money to the school in violation of the Dear Colleagues letter's fifth generaion mutated philosophocal great great great grand children.

[jdgalt1]

Sending in armored riot police should get the job done. No need to kill anybody.

[Nige]

Look, you guys are Trump voters. Pretending you give a shit about rules and enforcing laws and ensuring consequences for actions is pure hypocrisy. Zero tolerance and harsh punisments for the mild transgressions of people who disagree with you seems about your level, though. You don’t mind cops shooting people for nothing because you’re ideologically opposed to the avoidance of force and de-escalation.

[Michael Ejercito]

Whoch cops shot people for nothing?

[Nige]

Look into it. You might be unpleasantly surprised.

[jdgalt1]

Lieutenant Michael Byrd.

[CountmontyC]

As a never Trumper you support the lawfare against Trump by proudly declaring that "nobody isn't above the law" but here you argue that these protesters despite their obvious violations of the law should not be punished or even face charges of any sort. Here is the difference, those of us who support Trump make the claim that he has not violated any law but is being subject to political persecution through lawfare. We make the argument that the charges against Trump involve interpretations of the law never before used and are only being brought because he is the top challenger to Biden for the presidency. On the other hand the e protesters violations of the law are clear and regularly brought against people. Trespassing is one of the most commonly brought charges in the USA. Perhaps you can explain why clear violations of the law should not be punished if "nobody is above the law."

[Stephen Lathrop]

Well, it could be that what the demonstrators are doing is a 1A protected peaceable assembly. That could be true as a matter of law, or not. It could also be true that university administrators have a power to make that determination at their discretion. So maybe there are some questions which deserve attention before the skull busting begins.

[CountmontyC]

Yet and you and other never Trumpers want to call Trump an insurrectionist for giving a speech. Seems like Trump was practicing his 1st Amendment rights. So why is his use of the 1st Amendment a crime but these protesters clear violations of the law protected by the 1st Amendment?

[Nige]

No, he gets called an insurrectionist for trying to overturn an election; tangentially, a bunch of his supporters tried to stage an insurrection on his behalf, his complicity in the latter is murky, but close enough to wreck the career and reputation of any other politician that tried it.

[damikesc]

"Well, it could be that what the demonstrators are doing is a 1A protected peaceable assembly. "

They are preventing people from going to class, from using the commons, hell preventing residents from sleeping.

No, this is not free speech.

[Nige]

'but here you argue that these protesters despite their obvious violations of the law should not be punished or even face charges of any sort'

Which is it 'laws' or 'rules?' I would argue that the right to and tradition of protest often contravenes rules and involves minor breakage of the law, but so long as they remain peaceful, there's no particular reason for draconian responses unless you actually want to suppress protests.

You arguments about Trump will be tested in court. Unlike these kids, he has the Supreme Court covering for him. Two things he definitely did - tried to hang on to documents that did not belong to him, and tried to overturn an election. These kids put up some tents.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

I wonder what would happen to a university which responded to this sort of illegal behavior with an announcement like this:

"[University] will have some vacancies in the student body, and invites applications for prospective new students for admission on an expedited basis. If you demonstrate your academic qualifications and pledge to obey the laws and campus rules (which the students whose places you will be filling failed to do), then we hope we can meet you as students very soon."

[Please, Daivd, Seek Help]

Since at least Fisher I, a lot of people on the political right have made the argument that universities have zero legitimate basis for making cultural goals a part of admissions, which should be entirely based on academic merit as decided through testing and grade, and that cultural goals are in inevitable tension with meritocracy.

It would be really unusual to abruptly pivot away from this position towards "actually cultural fit should have primacy among the admitted even at the expense of testing meritocracy."

It makes it sound like the complaint was never about meritocracy, but actually just opposition to the particular cultural goals universities were pursuing. That's fine I just wish there'd be a bit of honesty about it.

[PhilMack]

Discriminating on skin culture or self identified cultural group: Bad, usually illegal.

Enforcing content neutral rules about usage of common spaces and expelling students who refuse to comply: Completely fine.

You can only make these two completely dissimilar things sound the same by calling them both "cultural goals."

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

It's difficult to imagine the level of stupidity required to get “actually cultural fit should have primacy among the admitted even at the expense of testing meritocracy” from what you're responding to, so I'm going to assume that you're just being deliberately (and ineptly) disingenuous.

And...who the hell is "Daivd"?

[Dr. Ed 2]

Thuggery always works...

[Noscitur a sociis]

Dr. Ed would know!

[Longtobefree]

"Our officers made the decision to deescalate the situation and stepped back to reduce the risk of injury to themselves or the demonstrators."

Alternative history.
At that point, those violating policy and law were surrounded, arrested, and booked at the local jail. They were expelled, and their belongings shipped home.

Free speech is standing with your silly signs supporting terrorism, not physically impeding anyone or anything, and not yelling threats.

[Longtobefree]

[UPDATE]
I still feel the same about it.

[Dr. Ed 2]

Alternative history: We've hired Blackwater to deal with policy enforcement on campus.

[Jonathansingletary]

It seems most right to me to say that it is not good for society for a group to disrupt daily life for others or commandeer public space just because they have a passionate political cause -and- that is not good for society for the state to use violent means against its own people. Both are the makings for a police state, and neither are desirable.

[mydisplayname]

Agreed: "it is not good for society for a group to disrupt daily life for others or commandeer public space just because they have a passionate political cause ... is not good for society for the state to use violent means against its own people."

Do we apply that logic to Israel or just to those who highlight the fact that Israel has disrupted daily life and commandeered space just because it truly, super-duper believes YaWeeWee has spat authorizing joy jelly onto its collective denuded glans? Was the Manson Family given a raw deal?

[Jonathansingletary]

I appreciate you really raising the bar for discourse about this.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Actually, the former will at least in some instances apply to a 1A protected peaceable assembly. Despite all the mumbling about freedom of expression, consideration of that other right seems to be getting short shrift.

[MatthewSlyfield]

"1A protected peaceable assembly. "
Occupying a public space in a way that interferes with other people going about their business in/through that space is arguably not peaceable.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Slyfield, most of the time, that is not a winning argument. Folks are all accustomed to other people getting in the way from time to time. They almost never conclude that is violence. They think of it as inconvenience.

[Lee Moore]

Obstruction is always inconvenient. If it’s accidental people will usually meh their way past it. Though there may be some muttering if the obstructor is a doofus standing in a doorway or other space, when he could easily step to the side and be a doofus there.

But deliberate obstruction is always a use of force and people have no difficulty in spotting the difference from accidental doofusness.

And deliberate obstruction can often be violence as well as force, if the instructors resist removal.

[Nige]

'But deliberate obstruction is always a use of force'

Maybe of they were blocking the way while holding sub-machine guns, THEN it would be a peaceful protest.

[damikesc]

Oh, so you can be menacing people --- AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT HAVE A GUN.

Good to know. Having sheer numbers of people preventing you from doing anything with the overwhelming threat of violence is OK in Nige's world.

These rules are going to be a bitch when used against things you support.

[Nige]

I thought the argument was that people with guns can’t possibly be menacing people? But if you’re just standing around unarmed, it’s OVERWHELMING VIOLENCE!

‘These rules are going to be a bitch when used against things you support.’

Are you under the impression you lot ever act any other way, or that anyone is shocked when you do?

[Lee Moore]

Actually one of the two main points of having a state is for it to use forceful and where necessary violent means against its own people – those of its people that are breaking the law, and thereby harming other people in the state.

The theory is, I believe, that if those who the lawbreakers are harming eschew bringing the harm to an end by using force themselves, and leave it to the state authorities, aka the police, the total quantity of violence in the society will be reduced.

The other main point of the state is to mete out violence to foreigners when they start troubling the people of the state.

Violence is kinda the point of the state. The trick is in custoding those who custode satisfactorily.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Violence is kinda the point of the state.

I have cheering news for you. Power, including violent power, is the province of sovereignty, not of the state.

The state, at least under American constitutionalism, is constrained, and purposed toward happier objectives. Those are explicitly described in founding documents, presented for your convenience.

[Lee Moore]

The police and the army are employed by the state and paid out from taxes extracted by force.

Whatever happy purposes you imagine for the state, it requires force or the threat of it to achieve them.

Meanwhile the state is real - see the burly men in uniform with pistols - whereas your sovereignty obsession is just a theoretical notion.

[Nige]

I love the idea that you weirdos go round seething with terror and resentment, under the constant threat of government force which is the only thing keeping you from murdering and raping and burning everything in sight. But if some black people complain about being shot a lot for no good reason, it's like GOD BLESS THE BOYS IN BLUE.

[Lee Moore]

It’s by no means unusual to love the contents of one’s own imagination.

[Nige]

If I invented you lot I'd be accused of heavy-handed satire.

[Stephen Lathrop]

Lee Moore, it takes notable disaffection to perceive the normal operations of government in the United States as an exercise of armed brutality. A person sitting in the bottom of a depression suffers a circumscribed range of vision. Perhaps you should stand up, get out of that hole, and look to a broader horizon.

[Lee Moore]

An appropriate quantity of force in appropriate circumstances is not brutality. And it is certainly preferable to live in a state that deploys force as the United States, and its constituent states do, than as - say - a state like the Soviet Union used to do. Which is not really about the founding documents per se - the Soviet Union had some very high minded sounding documents - but whether, in practice, the state in its operations defers to the documents.

But all states deploy force. An institution which has positions on matters of social and public policy, but does not deploy force, is called a debating society.

[John F. Carr]

"We reached this compromise to avoid a physical confrontation that would endanger demonstrators and our police officers alike."

We see the difference between high status and low status lawbreakers. When a poor kid is involved police can escalate at will because there is minimal consequence for use of deadly force. When middle class or better people are involved you worry about Neil Young singing "four dead in Urbana".

[Sarcastr0]

I agree -sounds like the problem is police overuse of force in poor communities.

Unless you want police to kill more protesting students.

[Mr. Bumble]

He's back and remains a douche.

[Brett Bellmore]

“We reached this compromise to avoid a physical confrontation that would endanger demonstrators and our police officers alike.”

Based on the account, the physical confrontation already took place, and the demonstrators won.

[Sam Bankman-Fried]

We’re here
We’re queer
And we support Hamas!!

Maybe if we show Hamas who supports them in America they will give up their fight?? We can send Hamas the DEI officers that got fired in America and then Hamas will spend all of their money on diversity training and they won’t be able to commit more atrocities! 😉

[Dr. Ed 2]

Exactly.

Young people are being taught that violence works.

[Longtobefree]

To quote Lou Grant, "Mary, violence; pure unadulterated violence, settles all professional football games, most boxing matches, and two marriages that I know of.".

[Noscitur a sociis]

Why pretty soon they’ll be calling for running people over with snowplows, machinegunning immigrants, nuking civilians, and raping prostitutes!

[Sarcastr0]

Every university is going to be handling this with a bit of a different mix of risk re: use of force and appropriate administrative punishment and speech rights and concerns about harassment/saftety and donor pressure and this being part of the teaching a college does and the specific facts as happened in that campus.

If you have one single way forward you are going to insist on, no matter if it's a crackdown or leaving students alone, you're reducing things to something simplistic.
It will keep you righeousness fires burning, though, so there is that.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

Supposing a Students for MAGA chapter decides to illegally obstruct campus operations with its protest and attack police. Could they demand, under the First Amendment, the same leniency as Students for a f____d up Palestine or whatever it calls itself?

The university of Illinois is a public land-grant institution. Amendment 14 (section 1, since nowadays we have to specify the section) would seem to require viewpoint neutrality at that institution.

So, if one group gets kid-glove treatment, you can’t deny the same treatment to a group the administration hates.

I seem to recall a MAGA demonstration where there was zero tolerance for illegal conduct. And rightly so!*

But would this university now be able to follow that example?

*Though I still have problems with holding defendants without bail prior to trial, based on an asinine ruling by the Supreme Court which ignored the 9th Amendment.

[Mr. Bumble]

How about when someone on bail resumes the conduct that brought the arrest in the first place?

[Nige]

Very little of this right-wing respect for rules and deploring of illegal conduct was present when that right-wing trucker convoy blocked roads and choked up an entire city. I would expect A MAGA student demo to be both tiny and coddled and praised as brave souls exercising their freedoms and anyne who didn't like it a poor snowflake in need of a safe space.

[Michael Ejercito]

And where was this trucker convoy?

[Nige]

Straight down the memory hole, I see!

[damikesc]

Why would American right wingers care about how Canadian truckers handle protests?

Their rights are different than ours.

We did get to see fascism that you like used against them, so there was that.

[Nige]

A good question, but they LOVED it. I’m pretty sure it’s against the rules to choke a city with trucks for a few weeks, even in Canada. If I recall correctly, the fascism you’re talking about was eventually they had a look at their funding. If THAT was fascist, what's sending in the cops to beat the shit out of a bunch of kids?

[MatthewSlyfield]

Canada.

[Currentsitguy]

As a student you have one job; that is to attend class, complete your assigned work, and to take your tests. Your parents aren't paying for you to march, protest, live in a tent, harass others, etc.

If this were my kid the message would be I have withdrawn you from class. Come home. You'll need to take a job at McDonalds to pay the rent I will be charging you.

[Sarcastr0]

Your narrow view of what college is for may not be shared by all parents.

Your first steps into adulthood will probably include lessons other than those in class.

[Lee Moore]

Your first steps into adulthood have to be taken whether you go to college or not.

Those who do not go to college learn soon enough at the University of Life that food does not land on the table by magic - as it did when you were a child. And that you will not keep your job if you can’t get up in the morning. Or if you stage a sit in in your boss’s office.

It’s not obvious to me why we should expect the non college transitioners from childhood to adulthood to adapt quicker than the college kids. Though I suppose that this would support my notion which we discussed before, that for many college kids their higher education subtracts rather than adds understanding.

Anyway one of the lessons from which we are usually and happily mostly protected from in childhood is that actions have consequences.

I should have thought being suspended for a semester was a cheaper way to learn this than learning it later when you lose your job.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Students are just the privileged youth who are able to prolong childhood for a few more (expensive) years.

[Nige]

Oh, how we value education.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Well, it's certainly true in my experience (and I managed to do it for about 10 years).

[Nige]

You gotta teach the kids that there's ways and means of keeping them in line, crushing their spirits and poisoning their dreams.

[damikesc]

Consequences for actions is one of the big lessons.

Leftists on campus, oddly, never seem to have to learn that lesson.

[Nige]

Dammit, you haven't crushed their spirits and shut them up yet!

[Jonathansingletary]

That’s three jobs.

[Nige]

Yoiu need to crush the spirits of young people as cruelly and as quickly as possible.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

[comment relocated]

[Internet sloth]

The largest danger is probably kids getting run over by buses, because of reduced visibility on the streets.

[kramartini]

"Illinois Nazis."

[edbeau99]

Attacking police officers with pieces of lumber would have got them 5 to 10 years in prison if they were demonstrating for Trump.

[Dr. Ed 2]

If not shot. Which is why I say SHOOT THEM!!!!

[Vryedni]

Is there anybody not in MAGA gear you don't want to shoot?

[Stephen Lathrop]

These comments really have morphed into demands by right-wingers for police beatings and harsh punishments for folks the right wingers don't like. Anyone old enough to remember the 60s and early 70s will experience deja vu.

If the pattern plays out the same this time as before, then the right-wingers will not like what happens for years afterward, but mutual resentments will continue life-long.

[Michael P]

The White House Correspondents Dinner really has notified into demands by left-wingers for police beatings and harsh punishments for folks the left-wingers don't like.

The difference is that the left-wingers are getting their way.

[Sarcastr0]

You didn't watch any of it; you saw some clips in some right-wing rag and are doing a confirmation bias.

[Dr. Ed 2]

No, the initial approach in the 60s was police beatings.

Here it has been appeasement.

If they'd shot 40 the day after Kent State, the whole thing would have been over. Or maybe shoot 400 the next day and THEN it would have been over...

You'll notice that we aren't having alcohol riots on campi anymore.
Force worked with that group and it will with this as well..

[VinniUSMC]

Left-wingers told us it's ok to punch Nazis. Too bad for them, they turned out to be Nazis. Time for them to get punched.

[Sarcastr0]

The lust for others to commit violence from a certain kind of frustrated, cowardly asshole on here is really at it's middle.

[damikesc]

So it is NOT OK to punch Nazis now?

When did that change?

[Nige]

Oh yeah, if some guy on the internet tells you it's ok to punch someone, you can totally tell the cops and they'll let you off.

[MeanGene]

Where were you hiding when the Feds murdered Vicki Weaver?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The Weavers punched their own tickets, top to bottom.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[MeanGene]

So, you're saying that people with wacky political/religious/racial opinions can expect to have government violate their rights, then that government will lie about it, and the great defenders of civil rights and civil liberties will lay low? That what you sayin', Artie? That people with non-mainstream opinions deserve to have their rights violated?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The Weavers (or their friends) shot at federal agents, as I recall, and refused to surrender with respect to lawful warrants. (Before that, at least one of the Weavers was believed to have engaged in violation of gun laws. I think there may have been a warrant involved, too, but I never fixated on the case because I am not a backwater malcontent.) Sure, the Weavers and their friends may have been antisocial misfits and disaffected anti-government cranks, but that's not what brought the government to their door or what led to the deaths at Ruby Ridge. There might have been some government wrongdoing involved, and if so the wrongdoers deserve(d) punishment, but the Weavers did not seem to be innocent victims.

How much of the Weavers' conduct do you endorse, MeanGene?

[MeanGene]

Do you endorse federal agents making false statements in court, Artie? That's what the jury that acquitted Randy Weaver thought they were doing. And since the government settled out of court on Weaver's wrongful death claim, the suspicion is that someone in the government thought Weaver might win the case. That highly trained FBI sniper claimed he was aiming at the Weavers' friend when he shot the unarmed Vicky Weaver through the head. Was he lying, or just a piss-poor shot? The government claimed that "mistakes" were made. If so, why did the Democrat leadership in Congress(including Schumer, Pelosi, and a guy named Joe Biden) fight tooth and nail to prevent a Congressional investigation of the ATF and FBI's manifest incompetence? Got any answers for that Artie?

[Brett Bellmore]

What really acquitted Weaver was when his lawyer was able to prove using press photos taken before the crime scene photos that the feds had altered things to match their version of events before taking their photos. Thus proving beyond all doubt that he was being railroaded.

[CountmontyC]

The shootings began when a federal marshal shot the family dog because the dog spotted the federal marshal hiding in some bushes. The marshal was wearing camo that did not identify him as any sort of law enforcement nor did he identify himself as law enforcement.The Weaver's son seeing a heavily armed stranger shoot and kill his dog shot at the marshal and turned to flee whereupon he was shot in the back. Vicki Weaver was shot by a FBI sniper by the name of Lon Horiuchi as she held her baby in her arms.
And the law Randy Weaver was charged with was selling a sawed off shotgun that was a fraction of an inch too short. What is interesting is that the "buyer" was a confidential informant of the FBI who had been told to find something on Randy Weaver so that Weaver could be made an informant of white supremacist groups even though he didn't really belong to any of those groups. It was the CI who sought out Weaver and told Weaver where to saw off the shotgun. Btw they also gave Randy Weaver the wrong court date of his hearing.

[Brett Bellmore]

And Bush the Elder was to blame! Reagan had reined in the BATF, Bush took off the choke collar and told them to 'sic 'em!'. Then he promoted the guy responsible for Ruby Ridge, which got Waco planned before Clinton even took office. (Not that Reno didn't make things worse, of course.)

[Nige]

ACAB amirite?

[WuzYoungOnceToo]

and harsh punishments for folks the right wingers don’t like

Maybe they're taking a cue from left-wingers' actions over the past few years.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Because having your own sense of right and wrong is too "limiting"...

[John F. Carr]

A bunch of demonstrators outside Emerson College in Boston were arrested last week. They had been camped out on city property. I heard on the radio that the head of the school is asking that arrested demonstrators not face charges. Any that do face charges will be offered free housing over summer break to go to court appearances.

I think it's up to the Suffolk County DA. The progressive prosecutor voters wanted resigned while under investigation for felonies. I do not know the reputation of the current office holder.

[Dr. Ed 2]

I think Emerson needs a new President — and a wholesale purge of the faculty, who are behind this.

And the progressive was Rachel Rollins who became USA and then resigned after 2 damning federal reports.

[loki13]

Brief thoughts-

I think that the administrators and police did the right thing, and de-escalated the situation. The protesters did move.

The was a full and fair announcement of the policies going forward.

Some protesters are choosing to abide by the agreement.

Other protesters are choosing not to. For those who are not, they are making the choice of civil disobedience because they believe it is worth it (or they just don't understand the consequences), and the University should grant them the desires of their conscience.

Again, I tend to think that college students have idealism unleavened by experience, and bless their cotton socks for that. But if I was paying attention, I would be far more concerned about the underlying issue (which is to say, why so many young people feel this way) than about the current expression.

As I have written before, it is possible to criticize Israel without getting into anti-Semitism. But it's also true and the two issues get conflated, either accidentally or by people who are exploiting it (to normalize anti-Semitism).

Anyway, I hope that one day there will be peace in the Middle East. But I've hoped for that for a long time, and it hasn't happened yet. I'm pretty sure that it won't happen in my lifetime. Cheers!

[Flight-ER-Doc]

Why 'interim' suspension? They are committing crimes (trespassing). Expel them.

[Sarcastr0]

Moar scalps!

[Don Nico]

Again, what would you do?

[JSinAZ]

To them, nothing,

To a political group the message of which he despises? The imagination of the executioner would run wild!

[Sarcastr0]

My rampage of hypothetical hypocricy continues.

[Sarcastr0]

Yet again *I can criticize without offering a solution* I really hope you stay far away from any peer review if you have this utterly stupid attitude.

But also, I pointed to other schools having success. You just didn't like my answer

[Don Nico]

I do peer reviews on a daily basis and have for more than 30 years. I'd hate to see your grant proposal reviews.

You don't have an answer. You repeatedly refuse to provide one.

[CountmontyC]

Nor will he ever offer a solution here because his "solution" is to let them continue to break the law because he supports their cause.

[Nige]

Apparently the protests going on a bit longer is the most terrifying and appalling threat civilisation has ever faced, or something.

[CountmontyC]

You mean like a three hour protest that the left has literally called worse than Pearl Harbor andj 9/11? A protest where the only people killed were protesters?
And how long should we allow protests that call for the extermination of Jews? Especially when they are violating rules and laws.

[Nige]

Well, are they like that? Are you defending the proposition? Or trying to excuse your own hyperbole? Which of the protests has the extermination of the Jews as one of their aims? Or is that more of the hyperbole you need in order to call for the supression of protests?

[CountmontyC]

Every one of the protests uses the Hamas slogan " from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free." That slogan as used by Hamas is a declaration of genocide.
At one protest a protester held a sign pointing to Jewish counter protesters saying "Hamas' next victims."
And of course "We are Hamas" has been a frequent refrain at these protests. Tell me, do you know what Hamas did October 7,2023?

[Nige]

So that's a no. Your interpretation of a slogan rather than theirs, a sign held by a counter-protester, and an alleged chant.

Tell me, do you know how many people the IDF has killed? Did it bring a single victim of Oct 7th back to life?

[CountmontyC]

The interpretation of the slogan "from the river to the sea" is the one Hamas uses.
Then there is this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAANY39ZoHk&list=RDNSzAANY39ZoHk&start_radio=1

[Don Nico]

Suspension past the end of tern pretty well screws the students out of 1 term of credit and is much easier for the university to defend in court.

[Dr. Ed 2]

I haven't seen courts make a distinction, and many places have redefined suspension to expulsion anyway.

[Dr. Ed 2]

"Interim suspension" means IMMEDIATE suspension, in the interim between now and your hearing.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Similarly, the penalty for Israel’s violation of international standards (and, indirectly, American law) should be immediate suspension of all assistance.

No more money.

No more UN cover.

No more help with projectiles.

No more weapons.

No more intelligence.

Nothing.

At least, not until Israel clears every belligerent, bigoted, murderous, right-wing jerk out of its government.

And a confession of wrongdoing.

And an apology.

Then, if Israel is still around, America could resume assistance. If the apology is persuasive.

[Voize]

To those who argue that laws should be ruthlessly enforced to deter others,
Do you feel the same way about those American tourists in Turks and Caicos who face 15 year sentences for having ammunition in their luggage?

[MatthewSlyfield]

1. I think there’s a big difference between carelessness and being deliberately disruptive/violent. What those American tourists did is not remotely equivalent to the pro Hamas protesters on US University campuses.

2 I don’t have a lot of sympathy for those American tourists in Turks and Caicos. That level of carelessness when traveling to another country is not readily excusable. Know the laws applicable to your destination and double check your luggage for anything that would be contraband before you pack.

3. The US State Department should try to cut a deal to get the American tourists returned to the US. Why? US Customs and/or the TSA failed to catch the ammo when they left the US.

[Sarcastr0]

There is a TON of land contained within ‘disruptive/violent’

I'm also a bit put out by how you don't much care about the consequences for tourists once you've decided that there should be consequences.
Proportionality is not something to be glossed over.

[Brett Bellmore]

"Know the laws applicable to your destination and double check your luggage for anything that would be contraband before you pack."

Can't say that often enough. You fly into the Philippines, and about 45 minutes out they distribute the customs declarations forms with "Death to all drug smugglers!" in bold letters on the top and bottom.

And for the next half hour there's a long line for the bathroom. Does nobody actually research the countries they visit?

[Lee Moore]

Yup.

My recollection though is that :

1. You check what you're packing
2. You check your bag in
3. Various government officials open your bag, out of your presence, and examine the contents, as they choose
4. It gets loaded onto the aircraft
5. You collect it at the far end

So you control the contents of your bag until you hand it over to the bag check agent. After that, it passes out of your control.

[damikesc]

#2 would be nice, but if you're a lesbian basketball player, we will move Heaven and Earth to get you out of your punishment.

[Nige]

If they were a lesbian basketball player, doing anything to help them would be *controversial.*

[edbeau99]

So long as university administrators send such strong messages that they are prepared to go to any lengths to avoid cracking down on these illegal and hateful protests, the pro-Hamas activists will be encouraged to break more and more laws and become more and more violent and abusive. The 48 hour deadline at Columbia? Passed days ago with ever more simpering requests from the university president to please talk some more. I recall a certain Ronald Reagan (you know, the guy who won the Cold War) and how he dealt with university protestors that broke the law.

[Nige]

He was the government, he was there to help.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

.

the pro-Hamas activists

Should those supporting Israel's despicable right-wing war criminals be treated differently?

[Flight-ER-Doc]

If President Trump's Jan 6 speech urging peaceful actions is 'insurrection' why are these Columbia U terrorists not being charged for calling for Columbia to burn?

[Nige]

Is it because Columbia hasn't burned?

[Stephen Lathrop]

You think a violent coup is being hatched at Columbia U?

[Don Nico]

Aren't the students giving aid and comfort to Hamas, and enemy of the United States? Isn't that treason in the Lathrop playbook?

[MatthewSlyfield]

Has the US congress declared war on Hamas?

If you look at the historical cases where treason charges were brought against someone, the general interpretation of "enemies of the United States" is countries with whom we are actively at war.

Historically, treason charges have only been brought in cases of insurrection/rebellion or for acts relative to a declared war. The last time the US filed treason charges was in the wake of WWII for acts committed during WWII.

[Stephen Lathrop]

It's hopeless, Slyfield.

Put Nico in a Skinner box, and a pigeon would beat him to the statistical solution of which button to push to maximize getting a treat. But Nico does peer reviews, daily. Probably for the journal, Twaddle. Whether that works hinges on a fraught question; do the authors of papers he reviews have any better notion than Nico how to answer the question, "How do I know that?"

Nico will say anything, with the extravagance of his claims inversely proportional to the state of his knowledge. So yeah, any authors Nico reviews should probably complain.

I have postponed muting Nico because I didn't want to do it in response to any of his unfounded attacks on me. That seemed unsporting. I wanted to wait and do it after he pissed me off about something else. This seems as good a time as any. Bye, Bye, Nico.