The Volokh Conspiracy
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Disagreeing with Eugene about the Anti-Hillel Incidents at Northwestern University Last Week
April 15, 2024, was admitted students day at Northwestern University. Student protestors took advantage of that day to, well, protest.
As the Daily Northwestern reported, "Demonstrators outside Sargent and Allison handed out flyers that welcomed admitted students to what they called the 'real Northwestern' around noon." The leaflet handed out by protesters accused Northwestern of "funneling Jewish students into Hillel, the Zionist 'foundation for Jewish life.'"
Later in the day, students held a protest rally, which included a student inveighing again NU Hillel as the "Zionist home of Jewish life on campus" in a speech during the rally. "Hillel is one of the many ways in which this university is complicit in infusing Jewishness with Zionism," the organizer said.
For the uninitiated, Hillel is the mainstream, international Jewish student organization that has hundreds of chapters in the US. Hillel provides religious and cultural programming to any Jewish (or non-Jewish, if they are interested) students who seek it. The only limitation Hillel has, ideologically speaking, is that it won't sponsor or partner with groups that call for Israel to cease to exist, nor who support boycotting Israel-related entities. That said, "anti-Zionist" students are welcome to participate in Hillel activities, and it does not impose any ideological litmus tests on participants. Wanting Israel to continue to exist is a position shared by well over ninety percent of American Jews.
The obvious reason that NU activists were attacking Hillel on admitted students day was to discourage students who either support Israel's existence, or are sufficiently indifferent to Israel to use the Hillel's services regardless, in other words, the vast, vast majority of Jewish students even at left-wing elite university, to attend, knowing they will face hostility from organized student groups and their members.
Now, imagine that similar vitriol has been aimed, on admitted students day, at the campus black students organization, the campus LGBTQ+ group, or the campus Muslim group, for any reason. Then imagine that the Dean of Students, who is also vice-president of student wellbeing (!), had been in attendance.
Everyone knows that if any of these other minority group organizations had faced similar organized vitriol, on admitted students day, no less, the university administration would have had a collective conniption fit. The Dean, Mona Dugo, if she had been in attendance, would have been "standing in solidarity" with the group whose organization was attacked. The university would have issues press releases denouncing the protests and emphasizing that it welcomes (black, LGBTQ, Muslim) students.
None of that happened. Instead, Dean Mona Dugo was quoted in the Daily as stating she was there to protect the students' right to protest, which, I should note, doesn't seem to have been in any jeopardy. She later told Eugene, in response to his inquiry, that she frequently attends protests to ensure everyone's rights are protected. She added the University, strongly supports Hillel, which is vital to the Northwestern community, and that the University is investigating whether the statements about Hillel that were in the flyer distributed Monday violate our Code of Conduct or Northwestern's discrimination and harassment policies. As Eugene reports, on Sunday the university put out a statement clarifying Dean Dugo's role at the protest, which seems to match what she emailed him.
The Daily then elaborated on her original statement to them at the rally. "I'm not really here to stand with or in opposition to the students. My role as the dean of students is to make sure that students have a right to protest."
Eugene concluded: "It thus seems that she indeed told the reporters that she was there as a neutral, in order both to protesting students' rights and to make sure that they do not 'do[] anything that disrupts or damages our community.' Again, that sounds like her doing her job as an administrator."
I disagree. Now, there were other issues raised at the rally that didn't have the same sensitivities. But the student protestors, via their leaflet, had already shown that Hillel was one of their targets. And again, I find it hard to believe that a university official would profess neutrality between (a) students, on admitted students day, decrying the existence of a black, LGBTQ, or Muslim student group, and (b) the targeted organizations and their members.
Consistently applied, such institutional neutrality would be generally good policy, so long as it does not clash with civil rights laws. But we all know that there is no such institutional neutrality at elite universities when it comes to speech perceived as racist, homophobic, etc. Its especially not believable that a university official would profess neutrality in circumstances where protesting students are intentionally jeopardizing the university's ability to recruit members of minority groups. Indeed, in 2019 NU itself issued no less than four separate condemnatory statements over several weeks in response to "two stickers and one handwritten note, all with the slogan, 'It's Okay to Be White,'" being found on campus.
But maybe we should praise Northwestern for its institutional neutrality (marred I suppose by its eventual expression of support for Hillel) in this instance, as model for it to follow in other circumstances? I don't think so. Jewish students are entitled to the same protection for a hostile environment as other students, and as a matter of nondiscrimination, as required by Title VI, if a university wouldn't tolerate hostile behavior toward group A, it should not tolerate hostile behavior toward group B. Institutional neutrality toward group B but not A is not institutional neutrality, but in the immortal words of Animal Farm, evidence that some animals are more equal than others. I suspect that Eugene disagrees with me, and would prefer selective institutional neutrality to none at all.
I also disagree with Eugene's headline portraying the events at issue as an "anti-Israel" protest. The students were protesting NU's ties to Israel, but there were also specifically protesting Hillel, and doing so on admitted students day with the obvious intent of discouraging most Jewish students from attending. That makes the protests both anti-Hillel and antisemitic, no matter how much the protestors may profess to have nothing against Jewish people, per se. Indeed, the student who attacked Hillel at the rally declined to identify "themselves," likely recognizing that many people would find the attack on Hillel to be antisemitic. People, including NU students, have a general right be antisemitic, but we don't have to pretend they aren't.
PS I apologize to those who thought this post was going to be about pro-Shammai goings-on at NU. If you don't get this joke, don't worry about it.
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Now, imagine that similar vitriol has been aimed, on admitted students day, at the campus black students organization...
Counterfactual hypotheticals to the rescue!
None of that happened.
David, when your grievances are based on terrible things that didn’t happen, you should consider the possibility that you’re a gaslighting grievance-peddler.
for any reason
And here’s the real juice. This is your rhetorical out from having to even address Israel’s war. Let me know when LGBTistan is undertaking a scorched-earth bombing campaign killing tens of thousands of civilians and then we can discuss your hypothetical.
That pink type is really annoying
I myself have often wondered why Reason chose
pink
. It's not the choice I would've made. But, you take what you can get.It doesn't show up for anybody else.
Yeah, that is weird. Something about the way he's quoting. I'll try:
It doesn’t show up for anybody else.
I'll try some.
abbr
address
cite
(All "quotes" listed by https://www.w3schools.com/html/html_quotation_elements.asp.)
Ah, the source says he's using code tags.
code
Is that true?
Yep.
Randal
is using code tags instead of blockquotes.The CSS for the code tags needs adjusting. It's not easy to read due to poor contrast.
But you did pick it because it shows up as a different color.
Bold or italics works too but it isn't as annoying.
But even more annoying is not knowing the difference between a hypothetical and a counterfactual.
It's the
code
tag. An intentional choice. Randal is either very misinformed or a jerk.I didn't make the code tag pink. I'd have chosen something different... periwinkle maybe.
"very misinformed or a jerk."
Why not both?
Randal is either very misinformed or a jerk.
"or"?
Well if you like…
A statement can be both. Hypotheticals are usually framed as future possibilities. Those aren’t counterfactual. But if the hypothetical is framed as something that didn't actually happen, as David did here, then it’s a counterfactual hypothetical.
A main reason the difference matters is that future hypotheticals are only as strong as they are perceived to be likely, so there’s pressure on the speaker to specify how such a hypothetical might come about. Why would protesters be targeting other affinity groups, for example.
Counterfactual hypotheticals, on the other hand, are really just imaginary whataboutism.
Counter Factual - adjective
1. Running contrary to the facts.
2. Contrary to fact; -- of assertions, ideas, assumptions.
3.Contrary to the facts; untrue.
Where as a Hypothetical is "Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption."
A counterfactual hypothetical is an oxymoron.
So I suppose your response to Schrodinger's famous hypothetical would be "That's a counterfactual until you actually put a cat in a box with a radioactive isotope".
You seem confused between hypotheticals and thought experiments. What's hypothetical about Shrödinger's Cat? What's the "assumption" that's "taken to be true?" Physics? You have to be quite the skeptic to think that physics is hypothetical. Did you think the eclipse was hypothetical before it happened?
A counterfactual hypothetical is an oxymoron.
I couldn't agree more, which is why I'm surprised by their popularity on the right.
LGBTstan is relentlessly assaulting America's most vulnerable, her children.
So, harassing Jewish students (just because they're Jewish!) is justifiable (in light of "Israel's war").
My son just turned 8. Is anything & everything "anti-Zionist activists" do to him also justifiable (in light of "Israel's war")?
Yeah, if he's pro-Israel, like Hillel is.
In general I think protesting against 8 year olds is a boneheaded move, but it's one of the right's favorite pasttimes so I'm surprised you're so sensitive about it.
Since we’re painting with a wide brush, consider that the United States is pro-Israel and that you, Randal, deserve to be sanctioned accordingly for that. (This assumes you are a U.S. resident.)
I fully expect that if I were an American abroad, I would be protested at about US policy towards Israel. It would even be appropriate in my case because I happen to support that policy. I don’t know where this whole “you shouldn’t be held to account for your beliefs and associations” business comes from. General modern snowflakery I guess
If you agree with the protesters, say so and they’ll stop protesting at you. If you don’t agree, well then, you’re an appropriate target for them to try to persuade.
“Counterfactual hypotheticals to the rescue!”
I think you misunderstand what the purpose of a hypothetical is. The law doesn’t just apply to people here and now, but it will apply to people’s actions in the future as well.
“David, when your grievances are based on terrible things that didn’t happen, you should consider the possibility that you’re a gaslighting grievance-peddler”
It has happened on other contexts. What was the national response to Charlottesville where white supremacists said “Jews will not replace us”? There certainly seems to be a very different reaction from Universities and the media when the perpetrators are on the far left vs far right.
You guys keep trying to ignore the fact that Israel is engaged in a longstanding war that has reignited, resulting in Israel being plausibly accused of ongoing war crimes in the ICJ.
In other words, get back to me when Israel has killed tens of thousands of American civilians in a scorched-earth campaign. I think their chants of “Jews will not replace us” might have a different ring to it in that context.
Just change the name from "Northwestern" to "University of Terror-Ann at Evanston". And yes, "Reverend" I'm still pissed about the 2021 Citrus Bowl, but I'm not about to fly a 767 into the Sears Tower, that's how we're different from the Terrorists, we'll kill them in an organized, efficient, military manner.
Frank
I suspect most of the parties you're inclined to name will *not* be conferring naming rights upon you any time soon. (just sayin')
The most egregious kind of hypocrisy rears it's ugly head again: the completely hypothetical kind.
The most egregious kind of hypocrisy rears it’s ugly head again: the completely hypothetical kind.
Just because it’s hypothetical doesn’t make it false, or not even a substantive argument. You’re just engaging in hand-waving as a way of not addressing that argument. Or are you asserting that…
“if any of these other minority group organizations had faced similar organized vitriol, on admitted students day, no less, the university administration would have had a collective conniption fit”
…is likely not true given the current sociopolitical climate on most U.S. college campuses and the leanings of most of their administrations (including the campus in question), especially given the very real example already cited (https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2019/04/university-condemns-acts-of-hate/), which was something far more benign in nature?
In a similar situation, where a different student affinity group was explicitly aligned with a nation plausibly accused of ongoing war crimes… yeah, I think it would play out similarly.
The really funny thing is that y’all would be on the other side! Imagine all the trans people decide they’re in need of self-determination, so they claim Transylvania as the ancestral homeland for trans people. They go and conquer Romania, with support from the U.S. government, including nukes. The displaced Romanians are kept under occupation in the remainder of Romania, which decays into refugee ghetto status. They’re obviously pissed, as is Europe and the rest of the world.
The NU LGBT+ group is explicitly pro-Transylvania, so it gets targeted by pro-Romanian protesters. David Bernstein is trans in this hypothetical, and he calls the protesters “obviously transphobic” even though they claim to just be on the side of the Romanians in the war, with nothing against trans people per se.
An NU administrator shows up to the protest claiming to be a neutral observer and David basically accuses her of transphobia by saying
We all know that if protesters were targeting, say, Hillel, for any reason, the NU administration would be having a conniption!
Would you still be defending David in that case?
Just because it’s hypothetical doesn’t make it false
A hypothetical is definitionally false.
or not even a substantive argument
It isn't an argument, it's an appeal to incredulity.
No; it's unfalsifiable, which means by definition it can't be false. (Until the contingency occurs, at which time it can be falsifiable but is no longer a hypothetical!)
That is a facet I hadn't really considered - a hypothetical isn't a proposition but an argument, therefore T/F aren't really correct values.
Never took a formal logic course.
"Never took a formal logic course"
That is abundantly clear.
What did this add to anything, other than the evidence that you're an agro asshole?
I think they are pretty useful, a typical Supreme Court oral argument has 2 or 3 hypotheticals.
Might be more effective at explaining why the hypothetical isn't apt to the situation.
Hypotheticals to elucidate what the law is operate like 'what how would the law apply if X were the case?' In answering, the law's operation is elucidated.
David is deploying hypotheticals to elucidate human behavior. Which, unlike the operation of law, is not predictable. And he's not asking a question, but assuming an answer: 'I know there is a double standard here because in us X were the case it people would behave like Y.'
The second elucidates nothing except how the people in David's head work.
This (and what NS states as well).
Hypotheticals can be useful in examining how a rule might work in different circumstances.
But it's terrible when you are just using it to get angry by conjuring up events that DID NOT HAPPEN in order to get angry.
You had it right the first time which is exactly what Bernstein did:
"Hypotheticals can be useful in examining how a rule might work in different circumstances."
There is no rule under examination in DMN's counterfactual hypo.
I haven't seen anyone argue that they believe that, yes, if a large group of protestors targeted, say, the black student organization on admitted students day, there would be a very different tone and content to the reaction. That's because we can all draw inferences from present knowledge of past behavior. Universities have consistently had much stronger reactions to satirical affirmative action bake sales, for example, which, unlike the NU stuff, are not intended to drive away cetain groups of students.
An appeal to present knowledge of past behavior remains subjective and weak sauce.
If it were so clear you wouldn’t need to speculate.
I get the temptation, but using your worldview to author a story that validates your worldview does nothing.
I learned that coming in too hot too many times around here.
A bake sale is weak sauce?
I haven’t seen anyone argue that they believe that, yes, if a large group of protestors targeted, say, the black student organization on admitted students day, there would [not*] be a very different tone and content to the reaction.
I have been arguing that, and I know you've seen my arguments since you replied to one.
* I assume you got your polarities confused, otherwise I don't understand your comment.
Thinking about hypotheticals can be very useful!
Getting angry at the people in your hypotheticals is not so useful.
Several denunciations against the anonymous authors of some flyers saying it's OK to be white? Versus neutrality (at least initially) toward flyers denouncing Hillel and warning students away from it because they don't want Israel destroyed?
If Bernstein is correct, the university took both those positions.
The only hypothetical element would be if the "it's OK to be white" people had added to their flyers, "therefore boycott the NAACP."
Whiteness and being pro-Israel are two very different attributes.
But also, this is Northwestern - do we have anything specific to analogize, or we just gonna throw out random stuff that's happened around America to manufacture a double standard?
The "ok to be white" incident was at Northwestern, like the protesters who denounced Hillel.
Thought that was at GWU.
From the campus statement: "While we value freedom of expression, we also must stand together to protect our values of diversity and inclusion. Posting a symbol of hate and intolerance on our campus violates our values and the core commitments of the University. Any act of hate, whether intentional or careless, will not be tolerated. Northwestern is committed to creating a safe, secure and welcoming environment for all of our students, faculty and staff."
You want the university to put out a political statement about anti-Israel protests being allowed but bad? That's what you're torqued off about?
Did you even read the post you're commenting on?
"Indeed, in 2019 NU itself issued no less than four separate condemnatory statements over several weeks in response to "two stickers and one handwritten note, all with the slogan, 'It's Okay to Be White,'" being found on campus."
"You want the university to put out a political statement about anti-Israel protests being allowed but bad? That’s what you’re torqued off about?"
I would have preferred that the University not have to wait for media pressure to defend its own Jewish organization. Calling Hillel a transmission belt for Zionism is at least as offensive as saying it's OK to be white - the university denounced the latter as an echo of National Socialism.
Are you so dense light can't penetrate?
You are complaining about the school’s speech being of the wrong viewpoint.
This is off topic - remember this whole thing is about whether the Dean of Students' presence means support for antisemitism. Nothing about political statements.
It also misses a point the VC has made pretty adroitly about how schools making political statements at all will piss some group off and is kind of a dumb idea.
Hillel... won't sponsor or partner with groups that call for Israel to cease to exist, nor who support boycotting Israel-related entities.
So Hillel is pro-Israel. Got it.
I also disagree with Eugene's headline portraying the events at issue as an "anti-Israel" protest. The students were protesting NU's ties to Israel, but there were also specifically protesting Hillel...
Wait, really? You just said Hillel was pro-Israel. Seems perfectly logical to include Hillel in a protest against NU’s ties to Israel. It’d be weird not to.
Indeed, the student who attacked Hillel at the rally declined to identify "themselves," likely recognizing that many people would find the attack on Hillel to be antisemitic.
And once again, you’ve proven the protesters right.
So here’s a little hypothetical for you. Hillel renounces its support of Israel. It doesn’t condemn Israel, but it switches to neutral, at least opening the door to e.g. sponsoring a panel with both pro- and anti-BDS speakers. Do you think the protesters…
a) Welcome the change and stop protesting Hillel now that it has severed its ties to Israel, or
b) Continue protesting Hillel anyway?
(a), collect another scalp and proclaim victory.
I 100% agree, the Hillel protest is in fact about Israel, not Jews.
Got it. So an organization that protests Indian’s claims to have any right to possess American land on grounds that they are “settler-colonialists” and shod return to India where they came from ASAPis not an anti-Indian organization.
Such an organization of course is in no way opposed to Indians. It merely opposes their absurd, ling, settler-colonialist claims to be “Native Americans.”
The proof is obvious. They repeatedly allied with European powers during the 18th century which promised to respect their land claims. This absolutely proves they are settler-colonialist tools of these European powers whose claims to possess American land are only the fact that these European powers donated the land to them.
After all, the land is called America and its native language is American English. These racist settler-colonialist Indians have had a long history of disrupting peaceful Americans and taking their land.
That’s basically the argument Randal and others have repeatedly been making about Jews and Israel.
To claim to support any Jewish organization that isn’t Zionist is exactly like claiming to support any Indian organization that doesn’t claim Indians are native to America and is willing to support their departure to India.
Jews, after all, are the people of Judea, the name of the land before settler-colonist Romans, the first of many settler-colonialists, drove most (but far from all of them) out and named their land “Palestine” in the hopes of erasing their attachment to it. The very name “Palestine” is as much a fundamentay non-native, fundamentally settler-colonialist name for Judea as “America” is for this part of the world.
You win incoherent post of the day. Put down the snifter and get some beddy-bye.
Or alternatively, pick up the bong and then do Transsexual Transvestites from Transylvania.
All I did was parrot the arguments about Jews supposedly being not native to Israel you’ve regularly spouted. Each statement I’ve made exactly matches an argument you’ve made multiple times.
Congratulations on acknowledging your arguments are incoherent. It’s a big step forward.
Being OK with a Jewish organization as long is it’s non-Zionist is like being OK with an Indian organization as long as they don’t claim to be native Americans.
And what has that got to do with European powers during the 18th century or India?
Nevermind, it doesn't matter. But yeah, if you're someone who thinks that Indian reservations are responsible for ongoing war crimes, then you would be ok with Indian organizations that don't support Indian reservations but not ones that do.
Is that surprising to you?
Universities need to get out of the law enforcement/judiciary business.
If a student breaks a law (a real law, passed by real legislators) then call the police, try them in local courts. Rioting, sexual assault, overdue library books, whatever.
There is nothing in our body of law that allows schools to usurp the role of government.
I get what you're laying down, but is choosing not to call the police usurping the role of government?
Is having a separate body to adjudicate administrative sanctions like suspension and expulsion usurping the role of government?
You do seem to be liking you some police power early and often!
I don't think anyone should be suspended or expelled except for "academic crimes", such as plagiarism and cheating at exams.
Is physically impeding other students from attending class an academic crime?
I think the line should be drawn is whether the conduct both breaks rules and the law, and disrupts the operations of the university.
Demonstrations that are disruptive enough to cancel classes or make a student reasonably fear for their physical safety to attend are disruptive enough to warrant arrest and suspension.
Trigger warning, I'm going hypothetical here: It's like a restaurant allowing PETA demonstrators to throw sand on non-vegan dishes at a restaurant and not calling police or even offering refunds.
No food is getting spoiled here.
I think the bright line you're trying to draw isn't so easy; as we know from abortion protests, obstruction is tricky to adjudicate. So is harassment.
A rule against both is fine, and in fact probably already on the books.
As they say, if you want to kill a law, start by enforcing it to it's fullest extent possible.
Right, no food is being spoiled, and we can all afford to miss a meal now and again.
Educations are being spoiled here, and that is much more serious and expensive than mere food.
I'm not actually proposing to enforce it to it's fullest extent possible, like say a laws against "parading". Where it's deminimus or victimless let it go, where it's severe enough to cause people to miss classes, and especially when warnings are ignored, then it should be fully enforced.
"where it’s severe enough to cause people to miss classes"
Indeed. People who want to go to their calculus class, oddly enough, have rights too.
I repeat what I said above – the issue is not that there is no ability to regulate physically impeding other students from attending class, but the ide that that’s an easy line to draw.
From what I read in the OP's linked article, This fracas was fliers being handed out near a cafeteria.
If I remember correctly, Martinned doesn’t believe physically assaulting other students is an academic crime.
Especially when Campus Police are used to support the protests that the Administration agrees with and to put down the groups that they don't.
I agree. Turn law enforcement over to police. A university's challenges with criminal justice are no different from that of the state.
Enough with schools permitting students to harass and impede other students (or anybody), like those are protected activities? These are supposed to be institutions of learning, not a Lord of the Flies play.
I suspect those unlawful behaviors are only being tolerated because they target a disfavored subgroup in the university community. But that doesn't matter; it is enough that the behaviors are illegal *and* disruptive to the lives of other university students.
It's very wrong that so many schools shield those illegal behaviors, to the detriment of students who deserve reasonable protections of the law.
Sorry, there are many laws governing these matters. For example, many universities have their own police force with territorial jurisdiction granted by act of state law.
Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean you can claim no law authorizes without doing any legal research.
You may want thelaw to be changed. But that’s a totally different argument from just saying it’s lawless.
Flight-ER-Doc referred to violations of existing laws. You answer as if he didn't, like another sympathizer who doesn't want laws enforced and pretends this isn't politically motivated lawlessness.
You lean on counterfactual hypocricy *twice*, because that's really your only argument against the DoS showing up to a bad protest while allowing it to go on.
You also appeal to 'obviously' twice. That kind of intensifier is a flag you are relying on your own worldview too much and need to show your work more for your argument to play to an audience.
It is news to me that protesting Israel must not be done near Jewish organizations on campus or else you're actually anti-Semitic "no matter how much the protestors may profess to have nothing against Jewish people, per se."
"It is news to me that protesting Israel must not be done near Jewish organizations "
Is this just protesting "near [a] Jewish organization"?
"a student inveighing again NU Hillel as the "Zionist home of Jewish life on campus" in a speech during the rally. "Hillel is one of the many ways in which this university is complicit in infusing Jewishness with Zionism," the organizer said."
It is targeting a Jewish organization. You ok with that?
Clicking through, that speaker is "A student organizer from JVP"
JVP is "Jewish Voice for Peace."
"Jewish Voice for Peace"
So? Its still targeting even if its by a Kill Me Last Jew.
Are you ok with targeting a Jewish organization as part of a protest about Israel?
Kill Me Last Jew.
Well, then.
Are you ok with targeting a Jewish organization as part of a protest about Israel?
Yes. I hate it, but that's kind of the point of protesting.
There is an Israeli Consulate in Chicago. Seems like that would be a better protest target than a bunch of US Jews.
"but that’s kind of the point of protesting"
As usual, only the words after the "but" matter. I will mark you down as ok with targeting Jews.
They're protesting for the school to divest.
I will mark you down as ok with targeting Jews. You really are a fucking asshole.
"school to divest"
Does Hillel control that decision? Or have anything to do with it? I know, Jews, tentacles in everything.
Your Last Reasonable Man facade is just so, so annoying. This is not a both sides issue. One side is good and one bad.
Oh look, an argument with defending Jews on one side of it. Sarcastr0 is on the other side... Surprise!
Then you think Prof. Volokh is a Jew-hater?
Are you ok with targeting a Jewish organization as part of a protest about Israel?
If the Jewish organization weren't pro-Israel, I think that's a tough call that would depend on more details than your hypothetical has to offer (such as, why are the protesters targeting the organization)?
But as David made clear, Hillel is explicitly pro-Israel. It seems obviously fine to me for an anti-Israel protest to target any pro-Israel organization. The US government being a great example. If the NU Chess Club were pro-Israel for some reason, I assume they'd be targeted too.
I applaud criticism and protest with respect to those support the Netanyahu government, those who support Israeli conduct in Gaza and the West Bank, those who support Israel's right-wing belligerents, etc. If an organization supports Israel's right-wing government and indefensible conduct, it deserve criticism and no one should get a pass.
People who hate Jews for being Jews are no better than racists, transphobes, white supremacists, misogynists, gay-bashers, Islamophobes, white nationalists, xenophobes, Christian nationalists, and other bigots. Those protesting Israel's revolting conduct and right-wing government should, for several reasons, should strenuously avoid association with antisemites.
"Those protesting Israel’s revolting conduct and right-wing government should, for several reasons, should [sic] strenuously avoid association with antisemites."
In your view, have they done so already, or do they still have some work to do?
Does supporting the existence of the country count as supporting the current government?
That might depend on the nature of the current government and how long it has been supported or arranged by the citizenry.
No. Israel's current government is doing some pretty evil things and we’d all be better off if they held an election and got a new one.
If Hillel supports the Netanyahu government; the superstitious right-wing bigots in the Netanyahu government; Israel's longstanding conduct in the West Bank; and/or Israel's recent conduct in Gaza, Hillel is a natural and deserving target of protest.
If not, the protests are poorly aimed.
(If the American government announces a boycott of that war-criming Israeli battalion whose members are right-wing religious kooks, will Hillel pull out of the United States?)
They weren't protesting Hillel, they were just protesting near Hillel!
That's Sarcastr0s "mostly peaceful" moment.
Yes, I hadn’t clicked through to see when I wrote the above. I've since read the article.
1) Hillel was NOT the sole target of the protests, just of one leaflet that David is foregrounding for…reasons.
2) The protests were outside of some student cafeterias, not out near Hillel at all.
So I actually overstated things with protesting near Hillel.
Of course, one could argue that it is targeting an explicitly Zionist organization. Are you arguing that it is unacceptable to target a Zionist organization that is explicitly Jewish, but OK to target one that is explicitly not Jewish?
He does mention, 'Indeed, in 2019 NU itself issued no less than four separate condemnatory statements over several weeks in response to "two stickers and one handwritten note, all with the slogan, 'It's Okay to Be White,'" being found on campus.' I'd say this is an analogous situation, not exactly equivalent, but enough to draw upon. I'd also say it backs him up that different minority groups are being treated differently.
I’d say this is an analogous situation...
Is it? As David conceded, the protesters in this case claim to be protesting Israel’s war atrocities, not Jews.
What do the “It’s Okay to be White” people claim to be protesting?
If you think protesting Israel is antisemitic, or if you think these protesters are lying about their message as David does, then yeah, the situation is comparable. That’s kindof the whole point (and David’s typical modus). If your premise is that the protesters are antisemitic… then they’re antisemitic! Wow that’s some amazing logic you guys. Really convincing stuff.
How much American-enabled war-criming, with thousands of children killed, was involved in the "It's OK to be White" context?
I conceded no such thing. Their specific beef with Hill were l was “Zionism,” ie believing that Israel should continue to exist. Hillel has no position on the war of Israel’s conduct iof it.
The students were protesting NU's ties to Israel, but there were also specifically protesting Hillel...
You think their protest of NU's ties to Israel is independent of Israel's conduct of the war?
Curiouser and curiouser.
Of course it is. SJP and JVP oppose Israel’s existence and support murdering Israeli civilians.
Could you list specific statements from JVP where they support murdering Israeli civilians? (Which most would understand to include the killing of children.) That's a pretty bold claim.
Just like I said. “They’re antisemites, therefore they’re antisemites.” Brilliant, unimpeachable logic.
The protesters are protesting Israwl’s existence and the fact that it is defending itself.
As was the case with Klan propaganda in the 19th and early 20th centuries, any act of self-defense gets branded an act of savagery.
They are wrll-versed in the rhetoric.
Still drunk it appears, fat-fingers.
If you want to compare the Middle East to the Jim Crow South, Israel better fits the role of the Klan, and its whinging about self-defense rings as hollow.
I see what you're saying but Prof. Bernstein is coming in way too hot for "enough to draw upon."
Used to be, when DemoKKKrat Governors kept certain minorities from enrolling in College, DemoKKKrat and Repubiclown POTUS's would send the Army/National Guard to protect them (the minorities). Not gonna happen with this DemoKKKrat POTUS of course, and that's a good thang, because as the "Reverend"'s pointed out (ad Nauseum) the people that join the Military aren't our "Bettors" (would they be "Worsers"??) and would likely dish out some 5.56mm Lobotomies.
Frank
The current protests should be seen as an opportunity to strike back at some of the most pernicious notions in education and elsewhere today: that speech is violence, and that people are entitled to "welcoming environments", in which they're in no danger of being exposed to ideas with which they disagree. We should be arguing along the lines of "Yes, pro-Israel students are offended by these expressions. But freedom of speech requires us to tolerate them, and that same freedom of speech requires us to tolerate similar expressions when directed toward blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, persons of transgender, etc., etc."
Unfortunately, that's not what most sympathizers with Israel are doing in the present situation. Instead, they're implicitly accepting that false and harmful equation of speech with violence. Rather than trying to loosen the restrictions that the DEI apparatus has imposed on freedom of expression, they're trying to impose new ones. The upshot is less freedom for everyone, and more power for administrators to regulate people's lives.
Israel and its supporters are responding to objections to disgusting Israeli conduct (and a deplorable Israeli government) by overstating and exaggerating their case in essentially every direction while ignoring Israel's egregious misconduct.
This seems about as stupid -- and dangerous -- as making support for Israel's right-wing belligerence a left-right divider in American politics (and aligning with the losing side of the American culture war).
Israel's conduct seems inexplicable, but electing right-wing assholes, hitch their political wagon to America's conservative losers, and engaging in indefensible conduct in the West Bank and Gaza is Israeli's call to make.
It's their funeral.
And the Tulsa Massacre was just a response to disgusting savage Negro conduct. Plus the fact that since savages don’t get rich by hard work and intelligence because everybody knows they are lazy and stupid, they had to have stolen those nice houses and businesses they had.
It was a basic ploy of Klan propaganda to turn every ordinary act of Black self-defense into an atrocity tale.
I'm not sure you're clear on who is dropping bombs on peoples' homes and killing tens of thousands of people.
The proper position is two argue: (a) what you argued; and (b) but in the meantime, you have to treat Jewish students that same as other groups, both for legal reasons and because you are otherwise discriminating against them. In my view, requiring (b) will be more likely to result in (a), because the whole point of current speech restrictions is to favor certain groups, if they had to be neutral, they wouldn't exist.
That said, the other David Bernstein has been doing a series of podcasts where he ask prominent individuals who are interested in free speech about this, and he gets some good answers. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-contrarian-with-david-bernstein/id1735523999
I’m a little surprised at Hillel’s pro-Israel policies. I was in Hillel at a small college in the mid-80’s (Dickinson College), and had no idea such policies existed, although I wouldn’t have had a problem with them if they were policies then. But those policies clearly make Hillel not just an organization for Jewish students at the University, but a pro-Israel group and thus a legitimate target for anti-Israel protests.
There has also been clear antisemitism on the part of some of these protestors, which sucks.
Hillel's written pro-Israel policies seem weak.
Hillel indicates it wants nothing to do with anyone who imposes sanctions on Israel, for example. The United States seems to be ready to impose sanctions on Israel. Does that mean Hillel will oppose the United States government.
Does Hillel stand with the war-criming Israeli battalion?
Does Hillel support the right-wing bigots in the Netanyahu government. Will it oppose those who sanction Israel for the disgusting conduct of those superstition-addled, violent, immoral, right-wing bigots?
I hope Hillel is a good organization that will revise its "my mother, drunk or sober" approach to Israel, especially because Israel has become an objectionable entity in many respects.
a pro-Israel group and thus a legitimate target for anti-Israel protests
Hillel’s stated policy position wrt Israel is simply:
“Hillel is steadfastly committed to the support of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure and recognized borders as a member of the family of nations.”
In that context, absent any stated policies about translating that abstract support into actual material support or other substantive action “support” simply means “in favor of the continued existence of Israel as a nation”. With that meaning, being pro-{whatever} does not make you {whatever}, nor an agent thereof. So it would seem that Hillel might be a legitimate target for anti-people-who-are-pro-Israel protests, but not anti-Israel protests.
So it would seem that Hillel might be a legitimate target for anti-people-who-are-pro-Israel protests, but not anti-Israel protests.
That’s the critical distinction you’re running with?
Now that you mention it, it's exactly the m.o. of the right’s current bigotry, so I see how you got there. You can hide your racism behind being anti-people-who-are-pro-Black, your homophobia behind anti-people-who-are-pro-trans, etc.
And you're going with "it's not about Jews."
How many wars and deaths, between countries and peoples, went by university students, *quietly*, for decades? When did students become people who can't tolerate the terrible victimization of war?
When the Jews went to war in the age of the woke...that's when it became too much for the good people to tolerate.
Admit it. It's the Jews.
There’s one going on in Africa right now.
Certain wars in certain places, they get more coverage and thus more interest from activist types.
Is what it is.
There used to be much campus interest in the wars in Sudan. Not so much now - I presume that means there's peace in Sudan (North and South).
It is a thing to think about.
I don't think it's evidence of antisemitism. (And yes, I do think the recent spate of protests do contain antisemites; just not exclusively)
So you’re saying there are good people on both sides?
I’m not saying it’s not about Jews. I’m criticizing David for making a terrible case that it’s about Jews.
There are a handful of actually antisemitic incidents that have been reported. Talk about those. Real antisemitism is much better evidence of antisemitism than David’s imagined antisemitism.
They support the continued existence of Israel as a JEWISH nation. You intentionally left that part out.
I think these protestors are both anti-Israel and anti-people-who-are-pro-Israel, so I suppose I agree with you, as far as that goes. I'm not sure what that proves. I'm just surprised that Hillel has any stated position about Israel at all. My experience with it was an organization where Jews on campus could meet with fellow Jews and socialize. It wasn't even all that religious, in my memory. Maybe it has changed, I have no idea.
You must be part of the conspiracy, because one of the protesters, who was definitely being accurate (/sarc) said:
"Hillel is one of the many ways in which this university is complicit in infusing Jewishness with Zionism."
So why are you covering up Hillel's insidious Zionist propaganda? (/sarc)
They support the continued existence of Israel as a JEWISH nation. You intentionally left that part out.
And by "intentionally left that part out" you mean "explicitly quoted that part verbatim". Or are you just that illiterate?
I’m still waiting for you to explain why you lied about me “intentionally leaving that part out” (the “Jewish” state part of their policy statement) when I in fact included that part in my quote thereof:
“Hillel is steadfastly committed to the support of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure and recognized borders as a member of the family of nations.”
In your concluding paragraph:
“…“support” simply means “in favor of the continued existence of Israel as a nation”. ”
I think you were trying to make the argument that Hillel is not pro-Zionist, and so intentionally left out the “Jewish” part. At least that was my illiterate take on it.
Does saying that Israel should continue to exist really count as "pro-Israel" in any meaningful sense? If I say the US, Argentina, Japan, or China should continue to exist, and that's it, non would would say that makes me some sort of ideological pro-US, pro-Japan, pro-Argentina, or pro-China advocate. I mean, even Ilhan Omer claims to support a two-state solution, which means that Israel would still exist, and no one calls her pro-Israel.
Yeah, that's a good point. Your post does mention that Hillel also won't partner with a group that supports the boycott, so that's at least a small step toward a more overt pro-Israel stance.
Leftist activists are amazingly good at infiltrating mainstream liberal-leaning organizations, pretending that they are more or less on board, and when the moment is right taking them over and seizing their assets and goodwill for their own purposes. That's exactly what would have happened to many campus Hillels if national Hillel didn't draw a line in the sand on BDS and advocating destruction for Israel. And to my knowledge, it's worked, because not a single Hillel has been taken over, even on the most leftist campuses.
Ok, well, a side-effect of that is it makes Hillel overtly pro-Israel, for at least the reasons AWD mentioned (though I think there are additional ones too). “We’re pro-Israel as a defense against the leftists” might even be true, but it’s irrelevant.
Hillel seems to take the formal position that it opposes sanctions on Israel even when those sanctions are justified (for example, when an Israeli Defense Forces battalion populated by right-wing religious kooks is sanctioned for deplorable, unlawful conduct.
That's not an attractive or defensible position.
There is too much gray area there to enforce it.
For instance if I said, on campus, we shouldn’t support Ukraine and the Ukraine doesn’t have any right to exist as an independent entity, did I cross an anti-discrimination line?
Or Tibet, Is saying Tibet doesn’t have a right to exist political, or illegal anti-Tibetan Buddhist discrimination?
Or Taiwan.
None of that crosses any line in anti-discrimination law.
Nor should saying Israel has no right to exist.
After all Israel has only existed as a country since 1948, Ukraine since 1989, not a huge difference. Tibet was independent from 1912-1951. Taiwan was a defacto Japanese possession from 1900-1945, ROC since and has never been controlled by the PRC.
That’s why I say focus on violations of the law not the swamp of what is or isn’t protected speech.
A couple of points which are probably disagreeing with Bernstein: I don't have a problem with the Dean of Students attending demonstrations as an observer, as long as she doesn't give any indication of support to one side or another. In fact regularly observing demonstrations to makes sure neither side is being oppressed is probably a good practice for a dean of students.
Second trying to police speech is a fools errand, except actual calls for violence. Just police the demonstrators conduct, physically blocking access, assault, noxious substances, fireworks, even spraying water on people should result in suspensions and arrest.
I'm not calling on anyone to "police" speech, but only to take as seriously speech hostile to Jews (or in this case a Jewish organization) as they would speech hostile to other groups and their organizations. Like I said, overall institutional neutrality about all such speech would be my preferred option, but that's not the world we currently live in.
Prof. Bernstein is a prominent part of a white, male blog that has been devoted to preserving safe spaces for gay-bashing bigots, transphobic bigots, racists, misogynists, Islamophobes, antisemites, and other bigots for years.
His concern about speech (and conduct) hostile to disfavored groups seems highly selective and generally deficient.
Texas DPS disrupting the lawn encampment at UT Texas is one example:
https://www.newsweek.com/palestine-protest-students-state-police-austin-texas-greg-abbott-1893876
NY officials clearing a demonstration outside Chuck Schumer's residence is another example on focusing on law breaking not speech which which might well violate anti-discrimination laws but is not criminal.
https://youtu.be/Xrtx_AVkTJc?feature=shared
I'm trying to get a better handle on the Texas case. Despite the governor's rhetoric, the facts are that the students were told to disperse, refused, and were arrested for trespassing. What I can't tell from media reports is whether order to disperse was lawful to begin with. If it was, then they were arrested for trespassing.
As for Schumer, I don't know New York law, but there are laws in some jurisdictions banning demonstrations in front of people's homes, and they have been held to be constitutional.
Exactly my point, where the law is being violated then enforce it, criminal law that is.
Don’t worry about what they are saying, because even statements that violate anti-discrimination law are not enforceable by the police, blocking thoroughfares, sidewalks, trespassing, decibel limits, and certainly assaults are all enforceable.
And if current laws aren’t enough then amend the FACE act to protect access to schools, universities, Hospitals and airports as well as abortion clinics.
The problem with the administration's "neutrality" is that it is patently false. The best you get is they are neutral when they support the cause and they are advocates for one side when they don't. Any neutrality is just a reflection of their personal biases between the two so you usually get Oberlin "neutrality".
Texas Gov. Greg Abbott has declared that the students protesting Israel's revolting conduct with respect to Palestinians are evidence that Ivy League schools are dinosaurs whose time has passed.
Open wider, clingers.
So where's the JDL when you really need them?