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Walter Olson on "The Right's Bogus Claims about Noncitizen Voting Fraud"
Olson explains why the idea of widespread noncitizen voting is a myth.

In a recent article at the UnPopulist website, my Cato Institute colleague Walter Olson (who is an election law expert) explains why right-wing claims that noncitizens are voting illegally in large numbers are a myth:
If you believe Elon Musk, "Democrats" are permitting large numbers of immigrants into the country on purpose in order to win elections. By "ushering in vast numbers of illegals," he wrote on X March 5, "they are importing voters." Even if Democrats do deport many unlawfully present persons, they can't be wholehearted in that effort because "every deportation is a lost vote." Musk's co-thinker on this topic, former president Donald Trump, said in January in Iowa: "That's why they are allowing these people to come in—people that don't speak our language—they are signing them up to vote." And a television ad from Ohio Republican Sen. J. D. Vance claims that current border policies mean "more Democrat voters pouring into this country." "Treason indeed!" exclaims Musk.
All these men know—although they often fail to concede in their commentaries—that it's already entirely illegal for anyone who isn't a citizen to vote in a federal election. (A few municipalities let non-citizens vote in local races like those for city council and school board.) I suppose their unstated premise could be that some future blanket amnesty would combine with a decree of mass naturalization to eventually enable these millions to vote lawfully. That would require an act of Congress that would go vastly beyond Reagan's amnesty or any other step in memory and would assuredly not be thinkable in current politics.
In reality, they are promoting the claim, a longstanding one with Trump, that noncitizens already do vote in massive numbers….
For four years, the Department of Justice reported to Donald Trump, who had inveighed against voter fraud. So far as I have been able to tell from news reports, its biggest resulting prosecution of noncitizen voting came in 2020 in North Carolina, where a federal grand jury, following a DHS investigation, indicted 19 persons of varying nationalities for voting in the state's federal election. That's 19 persons too many to have voted, assuming the charges panned out, but it's unlikely that it changed any outcomes given that more than 3.6 million persons cast their ballot in North Carolina's 2018 election….
One might also pause to note that the Trump administration created a commission on voter fraud, which, like every other player that has investigated the issue, was unable to document large-scale lawbreaking. (The Heritage Foundation's much-cited database of voting irregularities, when recently checked, included about 85 cases involving noncitizens since 2002.)
State-level prosecutions in this area are equally rare. Are states, too, somehow in on the plot? It seems hard to believe all of them could be. To begin with, many states with large noncitizen populations like Texas and Florida have been run by Republicans for decades, as have their attorney generals' offices.
Walter goes on to point out several additional reasons why claims of widespread illegal voting by noncitizens are implausible.
I would add just a couple points to his analysis. First, recruiting thousands of noncitizens to engage in illegal voting would requires a large operation that would be extremely difficult to keep secret and otherwise bring off successfully. Everyone involved would be risking severe criminal liability, which would incentivize any participants who got caught to testify against the others involved, in order to get lighter sentences.
Secrecy would be even more difficult to maintain in light of the fact that the Republican Party (like the Democrats) employs a veritable army of election lawyers and monitors whose tasks include trying to ferret out any skullduggery by the opposition. If the Democrats (or anyone else) were engaged in a vast conspiracy to engage in voter fraud, these GOP operatives should have been able to find evidence of it. They pretty obviously haven't.
Second, any longterm Democratic plan to turn noncitizens into voters would have to reckon with the fact that even legal immigrants must (in most cases) wait at least five years to become citizens eligible to vote, and even then they must take a civics test that most native-born Americans would fail if they had to take it without studying. Congress could potentially pass a statute easing or eliminating these requirements. But that would be an heavier political lift than conventional legalization of status.
There are genuine problems that ail American democracy. Walter and I go over potential solutions to some of them in the Team Libertarian Report for the National Constitution Center "Guardrails of Democracy" project (we coauthored the report with another Cato colleague, Clark Neily). But widespread illegal voting by noncitizens is not a real problem. It's just another bogus conspiracy theory, in an era that has all too many of them.
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I stay here (and make my daily Supreme Court posts)
because though white and male and affluent and
in a sheltered universe the Conspirators remain mostly tethered to reality and are willing to call out b.s. for what it is.
It is BS. I believe everyone has their (fair) day in court, and I see a case where the judge says, "Ok, I'll bite. Show me what you got! Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and the only truth, so help you god?"
"We do!"
"Ok, what happened, fraud-wise?"
"Well, not much..."
Hence it was all hot air for mass media consumption.
He was the president of the United States. Assuming the Deep State, he could sit down and tell his loyal people who care about integrity in the DOJ, or, hell, have a sitdown broadcast to the nation, “Here’s the evidence, X, Y, and Z. Something insidious is happening!”
None of that ever happened. It never left the range of taking pot shots as both sides do after an election they lose, as preperatory for background noise for the next election, or lawsuits that fade to nothingness for the same use case.
Greater in magnitude, but not in hot air, than this!
This one? That one.
Exactly.
Bernstein realized that, while one can make false accusations, one can't actually lie if a lie can be easily found out.
He should get credit for being the only one who, at least symbolically, correctly guessed the identity of Rosebud -- "it was something that he (Kane) lost".
And no one cheats on their income taxes, either...
Or ever runs a red light, or drives 5-10 MPH over the speed limit.
What does one person gain by committing voter fraud? Even if the chance of getting caught was the same as getting caught cheating on their taxes, why would they bother?
For decades Republicans have been harping about voter fraud, and every election cycle, there are a handful of people prosecuted for voter fraud. The numbers of those prosecuted multiplied by 100 would still be well short of what would switch the winner of the closest races. (Assuming that all the fraud was in the same direction, as well)
You are all insisting that we should believe that fraud cost Trump the election when you can’t even show that 1/100th of the fraud necessary for that to have occurred actually happened. (More like 1/1000, really)
>What does one person gain by committing voter fraud?
They gain the same thing you or I get from voting.
>You are all insisting that we should believe that fraud cost Trump the election when you can’t even show that 1/100th of the fraud necessary for that to have occurred actually happened. (More like 1/1000, really)
Two questions:
1.) What happens to people or organizations who look into fraud?
True the Vote? Get raided repeatedly by Federal agencies.
Trump? Charged with crimes.
O'Keefe? Hassled by Federal agencies.
2.) In your opinion, was there anything about the 2020 election that might cause a reasonable person to suspect the results?
They gain the same thing you or I get from voting.
Okay, but which of those comes with the potential for a felony conviction and years in prison? Which one is a fundamental right and responsibility of citizenship and which one is a crime?
What happens to people or organizations who look into fraud?
Was True the Vote "raided"? I hadn't heard that. I did hear how they had filed a complaint, then backed off when investigators insisted that they show them the evidence they said that they had and who gave it to them. They most recently said, in response to court orders, that they didn't have any of the information requested. In other words, they couldn't or wouldn't back up their claims of fraud.
https://apnews.com/article/georgia-elections-true-vote-ballot-stuffing-199113b47bc2df79c63fdf007cd23115
Trump? Charged with crimes.
Only one of the crimes Trump is charged with is related to claims of fraud. And those crimes aren't having made those claims, but using them to try and prevent the certified results showing Biden's victory from being carried out.
O’Keefe? Hassled by Federal agencies.
O'Keefe is clearly an unethical tool, but you'll need to be specific about how he has been "hassled" in ways I assume you think are unjust or illegal.
2.) In your opinion, was there anything about the 2020 election that might cause a reasonable person to suspect the results?
Nothing more than in previous elections, no. Everything that was actually brought into a courtroom was the usual disputes over whether the established laws and rules were followed. If judges ruled in ways that favored one party over the other, it was only because Trump and his MAGA followers in the GOP had spent months telling Republican voters not to use mail ballots. If the patterns of absentee/mail ballots that had existed for decades prior to that had held, neither party would have had a significant advantage in the expanded use of them due to pandemic concerns. Many of the ways in which mail ballots had expanded in the previous 20 years to that election were just as well supported by Republicans as Democrats.
Making it more convenient to vote was in everyone's interest, if they genuinely wanted to persuade more voters to their side. Restricting voting methods only makes sense to the extent that it is necessary for security. Having restrictions as a 'just in case' contingency for something very unlikely to occur (like voter ID) isn't reasonable if it is going to result in hundreds of times more eligible voters not casting a ballot than it would prevent in fraud. Think about it this way: how many hoops are you willing to jump through to prove to your bank that it is you trying to withdraw your money before the security precautions start looking like the bank trying to make it so hard to get your money that you might give up and let them keep it?
Another fraud analogy: An insurance company receives a claim for a home destroyed by a fire. The company sees things in the fire marshal's report that it finds suspicious. How much proof should the insurance company have that the fire was arson and that the owner had something to do with it before it could refuse to pay the claim? Whatever the standard of proof, the burden would be on the insurance company, I would think. Also, the evidence would have to be convincing to people other than those that work for or own the insurance company, right?
Would you accept a Republican win being overturned if only Democrats believed that voter suppression or fraud enabled the Republican to win? I don't think so.
True the Vote did not in fact get raided by anyone, but they did get sued by their own supporters for fraud.
No.
True the Vote got audited by the IRS, investigated by the FBI, OSHA, the EPA, and was raided by the ATF.
You people didn't know these things, so of course you know nothing about all the suspect and curious activities that happened in 2020.
Man, if only there was some prominent public figure invested in proving suspect and curious activities in the 2020 election who could highlight any actual real and actionable evidence of these things happening!
True the Vote did not get audited by the IRS, investigated by the FBI, OSHA, or the EPA, or raided by the ATF. It did, however, get sued by one of its own donors for fraud.
I'd say that getting six mail in ballots, with different permutations of my first name and middle initial caused me to be suspicious. None of those permutations were the same as my listing in the voter register.
Sounds like someone was "swatting" you. Do you have any enemies?
"What does one person gain by committing voter fraud"
Peer approval, welfare benefits, etc.
...a trip to the Willie Wonka Experience...
I personally know more than one person who (even brags about) voting multiple times in different states where they are enrolled. Their explanation is that anything is moral in order to stop the Republicans.
The states involved are RI, MA, and CT, where these people maintain multiple registrations (after they moved away to a different state in that group), and they go to visit each state and vote fraudulently in all federal elections. They have been doing this for decades.
I don't know how widespread this is, but I personally know that it really does happen.
They are opposed to efforts to clean the voter rolls, for obvious reasons.
No, you don't. You don't know any such people who did this, although I suppose it's possible they're trollingly telling you this stuff just to see how gullible you are.
Actually YOU don't know that he doesn't.
He should go to Republican-controlled states that dropped out of ERIC. Much less risk of being caught.
Please cite one 2020 election fraud case decided on the merits and not procedure or standing.
Here is a partial list:
https://campaignlegal.org/results-lawsuits-regarding-2020-elections
Trump v. Biden (Wis. Dec. 14, 2020)
[Trump appointee] Judge Ludwig wrote in his decision, that “[t]his Court has allowed plaintiff the chance to make his case and he has lost on the merits” because the procedures used “do not
remotely rise to the level” of breaking Wisconsin’s election rules.
The Republicans are accusing Democrats of wholesale violations of the law.
“Democrats can’t be doing that because that would be illegal” hardly seems a serious or credible counter to such accusations.
How about:
It would be impossible to keep secret.
Participants would gain very little, at enormous risk.
There is no evidence outside the fevered minds of MAGAT's.
There are armies of lawyers looking for any sign that this is going on, and they haven't found any.
The people making the claims, Vance, Trump, Musk, are noted liars.
It would be impossible to keep secret.
Like a "fake" moon landing, you'd need thousands of conspiratists, not a damned one who cracked on their deathbed, or even had a fit of loyalty to their nation, to tell the truth.
Just not statistically possible long term, much less short term.
"It would be impossible to keep secret."
Like a widespread plot to overrule the 2020 election?
Exactly. Trump's plot was exposed very quickly.
“Democrats can’t be doing that because that would be illegal” hardly seems a serious or credible counter to such accusations.
How about, "Produce some evidence." Is that "a serious or credible counter?" Who do you think bears the burden of proof here? What do you think of those who make evidence-free accusations?
How about:
The democrats have been doing it for decades.
"The runoff vote count, handled by the Democratic State Central Committee, took a week. Johnson was announced the winner by 87 votes out of 988,295, an extremely narrow margin of victory. However, Johnson's victory was based on 200 "patently fraudulent" ballots reported six days after the election from Box 13 in Jim Wells County, in an area dominated by political boss George Parr. The added names were in alphabetical order and written with the same pen and handwriting, following at the end of the list of voters."
So your evidence that there is a plot to have illegals vote is that in a Democratic primary election in Texas in 1948, it appears that some fake ballots were added to the ballot box. Forgive me if I am not convinced.
Assume complete fraud by Johnson. And that has what to do with an election almost 60 years later?
"decades."
Try centuries. Dems have been cheating since the Albany Regency.
The apologists here would have you believe they just stopped.
Try Millennia. They've been cheating since the Paleozoic.
That is, Professor Somin’s argument is essentially circular. The law is relevant to what Democrats do only if they follow it. Professor Somin makes no atgument that it’s in any way physically impossible for Democrats to e.g. mass produce and issue certificates of citizenship etc. on the spot. He only asserts that if one assumes that they follow the law, it follows that they would not do so. That’s hardly an answer to accusations of wholesale violation of the law!
Indeed, the very circularity of the argument tends to make the accusation more probable. A neutral observer could reasonably presume that if Democrats WEREN’T doing this, Professor Somin would be able to come up with a better argument that they aren’t.
What does an argument that A is not doing X look like, especially in the absence of evidence that A is in fact doing X?
If I say "ReaderY is robbing banks," what is your response?
Professor Somin makes no argument that it’s in any way physically impossible for Democrats to e.g. mass produce and issue certificates of citizenship etc. on the spot.
ReaderY, seek professional help. Urgently.
Believing accusations without evidence makes you an idiot, particularly if the accusation comes from a habitual liar and criminal.
Believing accusations without evidence makes you an idiot,
Even asking the accused to refute the accusations makes you an idiot.
Professor Somin’s argument is essentially circular
I feel like you didn't read the same OP I did.
ReaderY is one of the more tragically stupid commenters here. Tragic because it doesn't seem to have to have been that way.
Periodically, I point out logical fallacies in arguments, based on the now old-fashioned view that logic is a system that deserves attending to independently of what is being advocated. When a poster makes an argument that’s just a bad argument, I periodically point that out, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the position being advocated.
Just how old-fashioned that idea now is can be seen from the reply comments above. The concept of the validity of arguments being a subject of its own, separate from whether one agrees with the position advocated seems truly dead. Today, just as George Orwell desscribed the situation of his day more than three quarters of a century ago, logic just doesn’t matter. If one advocates the right cause, any old argument will do. Any argument made on behalf of the right cause must be right.
And if one disagrees with or points out a flaw in any argument made by an advocate of the right cause, one must be an enemy. And if one is an enemy, then ones argument, whatever it is, must be wrong, mustn’t it? Anything said on behalf of the other side can never possibly be right, can it?
Thus, argument stops being an intellectual process intended to establish a proposition. It becomes the mere gain-saying of anything the other person says.
I’d like my pound back, please. Where is Complaints? I’ll take being hit over the head lessons rather than this stuff.
Here is the thing - the OP is not a single argument - as is often the case for Prof. Somin he Marshall’s quite a few reasons why his thesis is true.
You seem to have issues with one of them and then ignored the rest. And you complain when people take issue with your shallow engagent.
Is it "logical" to expect someone to prove a negative to your reasonable satisfaction? I'm curious where you learned that.
Periodically, I point out logical fallacies in arguments, based on the now old-fashioned view that logic is a system that deserves attending to independently of what is being advocated.
Periodically, you make up logical fallacies in other people's arguments. The only question is if you're doing it because your reading comprehension is so poor you misinterpreted what was written, or whether your integrity is so lacking that you're happy to blatantly and obviously misrepresent the argument you're responding to.
Sir, you’re in the wrong room. This is Room 12A. Abuse is room 12 next door.
No, myself is right. You haven’t identified a
logical fallacy
in Somin’s argument. You just don’t like the political implications so you’re trying your best to undermine it with some bullshit dressed up to sound vaguely like a logical argument.Let’s take a closer look!
He only asserts that if one assumes that they follow the law, it follows that they would not do so.
Somin makes no such assertion. Point it out if you disagree. Not only that but he makes no such assumption. Both of Somin’s points actually assume arguendo that the Democrats are breaking the law. You’re retarded.
The same is true of Olson’s arguments. Olson is who Somin is referencing in the OP, in case you didn’t read it… which honestly, is the best-case scenario for you here.
Olson makes one additional point, which is to highlight that Trump is making the exact logical fallacy that you’re trying to to pin on Somin, namely an unsupported assumption that Democrats follow the law. In the case of Trump it’s even worse, since it contradicts his own premise that Democrats aren’t following the law!
You dumb.
"What do you think of those who make evidence-free accusations?"
Quite a bit of that going on nowadays...
That was supposed to be in reply to bernard11
I don't think fraud is widespread, but it seems like some people insist on making it so it would be undetectable if it were happening. No ID, unsanctioned drop boxes, hackable voting machines...
No residency verification, no signature verification, no chains of custody, secret vote counting, etc.
I mean, none of that is actually true, but you do you.
Only someone who is absolutely clueless about election procedures could claim that there is no chain of custody. There is reams of paperwork documenting chain of custody of everything, down to every spoiled ballot and discarded bits of tamper proof tape and numbered security seals. County boards of election count and document everything, and I mean EVERYTHING.
You posit no problem, but say it seems like maybe there's a conspiracy. But the acts you cite are not done by a single party or group.
1, Anything at scale would be detectable.
2. 'people insist on making it so it would be undetectable if it were happening' implies a change. ID requirements haven't loosened, they've tightened. Mostly in red states.
3. Unsanctioned drop boxes are at least a bipartisan thing. The California GOP are the vanguard here.
4. Hackable voting machines is not a Democratic thing either.
In general, one party wants to make voting easier, and one cites a nonexistent problem as an excuse to make it harder.
I wasn't trying to imply a conspiracy and wasn't trying to say it was all one party, and also said I didn't think there was widespread fraud. Feels like you're responding to everyone else except me, here.
Yes there were changes. Illegal drop boxes were in fact used in 2020 that were not used in 2016. ID requirements in my state are new-ish, but people have sued to get rid of them, and getting rid of them would now be a change. And some people still seem to want those fancy electronic machines.
Once you get no ID, unsactioned boxes, and hackable machines, how exactly do you detect anything even if it's at scale? You can't trust the ballots and you can't trust the counts of those ballots.
Man was never supposed to fly, dammit!
I keep saying that myself: You can't work hard to make detecting vote fraud more difficult, and then expect people to think it means something that vote fraud isn't detected. You can't blindfold people and then have them accept your argument that, because they don't see something, it can't be there. That you blindfolded them is itself evidence!
If Democrats want people to believe elections are honest, they HAVE to permit election security, real vote audits, all the procedures that would DETECT cheating. But they won't, so the logical conclusion is that they are cheating.
You're doing telepathy again. There are other reasons to not like voter ID, you just ingnore them.
You also ignore all the expensive GOP commissions and studies and whatnot.
And then you demand the Dems mollify the voter fraud crowd or else their delusions are the Dem's fault.
The right doesn't arrive at their lack of faith in the system from a factual place, Brett. Dems trying to please that crowd is a fool's errand.
You think Dems are using illegals as a time bomb to take over supreme power. Also Dems are planning to put conservatives in camps. I don't think what you claim will make you feel secure will do that; it'll just allow you to choose new goalposts.
I think you should step back because Brett's point isn't as bad as you think it is.
The Democrats have had an algorithm for 40 years that more diffident, less conscientious voters skew Democrat. (When I first learned about politics this was literally called the "Sloppy Dem Thesis" by political pros.) And while I'm not denying that Democrats had some legitimate public policy reasons for opposing voter ID (and I am also not denying that Republicans push very partisan versions of voter ID such as "your concealed carry license works as a voter ID but your student ID does not"), the fact remains that the Sloppy Dem Thesis was part of the reason Democrats historically gravitated towards it.
And further, it's worth noting that all the left wing European social democracies that I admire and most American Lefties admire have voter ID. The rest of the world actually thinks we're crazy to let people vote without identifying. NOT because there's widespread fraud, but actually for the reasons Brett is trying, imperfectly, to articulate: that checking people's ID's is a public confidence measure.
So I don't think there's some great principle here, and I think it would behoove the Democrats to cave on voter ID, at least as long as it isn't implemented in a completely pro-Republican fashion. Because at the end of the day, Brett has a point-- demanding that people be able to vote without presenting proof that they are who they say they are DOES sap public confidence in elections, and it doesn't it for what is basically a fairly unimportant reason.
1. That take hasn't held true for at least 2 election cycles now.
2. You have not established that Dems immigration policy is motivated by electoral demographic reasons; you acknowledge these other reasons and then say, unsupported that 'the fact remains.' No, the fact does not remain.
I'm willing to posit that trying to nail down a motive for a political party is a fool's errand. But the side doing that ain't mine.
3. I don't think Europe is solid in it's voter ID policies, but I also don't care. There is well established proof it discourages voters; until a benefit is factually proven, or that cost satisfactorily mitigated, I'm going to remain skeptical of such a requirement.
4. Our public confidence in elections is not driven by our voter ID policies - it's driven by MAGA. If things calm down, I'm open to a policy discussion weighing both the costs and the benefits. Until they do, this is kowtowing to a people who will not be mollified.
I didn't say anything about immigration policy. Only about voter ID.
I realize the Sloppy Dem Thesis is going away. But that gives us our chance to concede on a policy that is justified by basically lightweight reasons (really, if getting an ID is so onerous you need to tell that to the dozens of democracies that require it).
The benefit is public confidence in elections. The public doesn't want ineligible voters to vote. They are right about that. I realize this isn't going to swing elections and has nothing to do with immigration conspiracy theories, but ineligible voters should not vote. Not ever. That's what the public wants, and it is a reasonable demand because once you allow that it does make elections seem more screwy (and there's a big cost to elections seeming screwy, as we have seen in recent years).
Finally, there's no reason todelay this until MAGA subsides. Why would we do that? That's just you engaging in intellectual hostage taking.
There's literally no reason to think a rule that numerous democratic countries recognize is some sort of grave imposition on the franchise. It isn't. Indeed, it protects the franchise by upholding public confidence in elections. We should cave.
I still don't think you've supported that liking a broad franchise must be motivated primarily for instrumentalist reasons.
We will perhaps soon find out, as demographics do seem to be shifting.
We did not have much of an issue with public confidence in elections, even with a similar legal setup, until Trump started up this particular line of bullshit. Legal reforms will not address this issue.
If your motive for voter ID laws is public confidence in elections, you need to wait until MAGA subsides if you want a prayer of those laws moving the needle.
There’s literally no reason to think a rule that numerous democratic countries recognize is some sort of grave imposition on the franchise
There's plenty of studies and examples in enough jurisdictions it sure looks generalizable.
"I still don’t think you’ve supported that liking a broad franchise"
This isn't about how broad the franchise is.
This is about the balance between election security and convenience. And you're trying to pretend that anything short of the degree of convenience you demand at any given instant is unconstitutional vote suppression. The moral and legal equivalent of Jim Crow.
And you look stupid doing it.
It's interesting you brought up Jim Crow, since I did not.
Among your many issues, Brett, you can't understand how things operate for people less comfortable than yourself.
You draw a bright line where there is no bright lint to draw. And your line of convenience, IIRC, includes risking Covid.
It is about the franchise, you want fewer people voting.
The benefit is public confidence in elections.
Implement MAGA-run voter ID schemes and it will increase my confidence that this nation took a step back toward Jim Crow exclusions of blacks, and especially black males. Which, by the way, has always been the point. To bar the door against black males becoming pro-D swing voters in places like Georgia, North Carolina, and even potentially Florida.
Anyone so obtuse as to need an explanation? Only consider how likely it is that a black male with legal peccadillos like unpaid parking tickets, missed child support, or unanswered warrants will show up at a place where cops work, to formally identify himself.
"male with legal peccadillos like unpaid parking tickets, missed child support, or unanswered warrants"
Regardless of race, that's the kind of voter we need more input from!
Regardless of race, that’s the kind of voter we need more input from!
We don't need input from anyone in particular, actually.
Democracy as instrument of good policy is has been disproven over and over. And as you demonstrate it can be used to rationalize all sorts of voting restrictions (up to only homeowners or taxpayers)
Democracy as a moral axiom that government by, of, and for the people is an inherent good.
Cutting people off for unpaid parking tickets is immoral.
I think it's really racist to assume Blacks don't know how to get an ID.
No, there isn't, for many reasons, including the fact that pretty much everyone in the U.S. has ID.
Remember, when the Democrats took the issue to the Supreme Court, they couldn't actually find plaintiffs who couldn't get ID.
I posted that Wisconsin study elsewhere in this thread. There are others. All localized, but at least enough to say it’s a thing.
Yes, a study isn’t the same as a specific person testifying in a court of law, but it cannot be discounted as evidence.
I don’t think that means don’t do voter ID, I think it means you need to think hard about the costs and benefits and not just slam it in for partisan affinity.
And at the moment, MAGA are the loud ones on the issue and they are not going to be mollified so the benefit of public trust in our lessons seems attenuated to me.
Of course I can't read anyone's mind, but the fact that Republicans across the nation demand and work diligently for voter ID laws makes me suspect that it plays to their partisan benefit somehow. Since there is absolutely no evidence that there is widespread voter impersonation, I have to believe that they have data that leads them to believe that it supresses some small fraction of voters who skew Democratic. I'm actually curious if you have a different theory as to why Republicans so universally support voter ID laws.
How about Voter ID in exchange for universal mail-in voting and/or aggressive government efforts to proactively register people to vote.
I have no problem with including ID in a package that makes ID's easy to get and which makes voter registration easy.
Not sure about universal mail-in voting though-- if you want to talk about an area where there actually is some fraud, it's absentee ballots. Personally I prefer EITHER online voting OR physically going to the polls to mail-in.
I recently moved to Oregon which has had universal mail-in voting for over 25 years.. Everyone here loves it.
Online voting appears to be a really great way to finally kill of ballot secrecy, and make fraud cheaply scalable.
Now *that* I agree with.
How are online ballots any less secret than absentee ballots?
"How are online ballots any less secret than absentee ballots?"
I'll take a stab: if an evil government wants to check my mail-in ballot to see how I voted, they have to mark it in some way. Secret yellow dots like laser printers, microtaggants, subtly different layout, DNA, or something. With the exception of DNA testing, those have to be detectable on close inspection, so there is a risk the populace will find out their ballots aren't actually secret. DNA checking could be problematic; there will be lots of cross contamination, I could use rubber gloves, etc.
With online voting, you have to identify yourself to the government computer somehow, to verify who is voting. Then you hand it your vote. A non-evil government will be very careful to keep 'who voted' and 'who they voted for' carefully segregated, but it's trivial for an evil government to connect - or rather not disconnect - them, and it would be impossible for the voter to know at his end. You can put a paper absentee ballot under a microscope, but you can't examine the software at the other end of your internet connection.
While Brett does like him some conspiracy, lots of pretty computer savvy folks get the willies from online voting.
Republicans push very partisan versions of voter ID such as “your concealed carry license works as a voter ID but your student ID does not”
Your state-issued ID for which you had to not only identify yourself thoroughly, pass a background check, and be fingerprinted — is valid, but your privately-issued non-verifiable ID isn’t as good.
Those unreasonable Republicans are partisan monsters! And Democrats never have concealed carry permits because "OMG GUNS!", I guess?
>There are other reasons to not like voter ID, you just ingnore them.
Any reasons that don't assume blacks are id-less morons?
You know, I never mentioned blacks, you racist ass.
I sure hate to sound like I'm supporting "White Pride" up there, but you realize anyone can look up to your comment from eight hours earlier?
". . . To bar the door against black males becoming pro-D swing voters in places like Georgia, North Carolina, and even potentially Florida.
"Anyone so obtuse as to need an explanation? Only consider how likely it is that a black male with legal peccadillos like unpaid parking tickets, missed child support, or unanswered warrants will show up at a place where cops work, to formally identify himself."
Do you think that an easily, instantly verifiable lie makes you more, or less, credible in your arguments?
The theory of ID is to stop one voter from impersonating another. If you impersonate at scale then you need to be sure the impersonated person doesn't vote or the scheme is exposed (dead/fake registrations doesn't really help since people will eventually clean them up and notice that the dead person voted). So one can be pretty sure there's no widespread fraud based on voter impersonation.
Same thing with drop boxes for mail in ballots, in theory someone could do something to the ballots in the boxes, but it's really hard to do that undetected and no one has detected anything.
As for "hackable machines" the one actual plausible stolen election theory was about the Diebold Voting Machines with poor security, zero paper trail, and a partisan CEO.
And after Bush beat Kerry, with some mildly surprising states using the Diebold machines, there were people claiming they were used to steal the vote. I never saw any real evidence other than the horrifically bad security, but due to the nature of the machines I can't actually discount that one.
That's the ironic/frustrating thing about stuff like this.
The US has had one recent election with legitimate concerns about the integrity of the vote, and it was a GOP company with voting machine that were inexplicably susceptible to undetectable hacking.
The US also had one recent election where the "proper" winner lost, that was Bush v Gore. Gore actually had more legal voters try to cast a ballot for him in Florida. Yet somehow the whining from the GOP in 2020 is so much louder.
And yet the Dems have no problem calling for more IRS agents.
Penalty on cheating on taxes is worse than voter fraud so no one would ever do it.
Penalty on cheating on taxes is worse than voter fraud
This is an incoherent bumper sticker without more specifics.
But here's what I thought of:
https://apnews.com/article/texas-voter-fraud-conviction-overturned-f6265c98b5a134388c229d3886e39410
A Texas appeals court has overturned a Fort Worth woman’s voter fraud conviction and five-year prison term for casting an illegal provisional ballot.
...
Appearing near tears at times, Mason said during a Friday news conference that it has been a long seven years since the voting charge. “I’ve been out for six years on an appeal bond, one foot in one foot out, not knowing if I was going back to prison,” Mason said.
Yeah, the court explained all the reasons you’d have to be extremely gullible to accept Mason’s story. And then in the last few words of the decision, proceeded to be that gullible, as they’d been ordered to be by the higher court.
This was awful. Of course you're into it.
'you’d have to be extremely gullible to accept Mason’s story'
This suggests there was absolutely no evidence to disprove it. It's always fun to see where you read malice into something and where you don't, where evidence matters to you and where it doesn't.
There basically was oodles of evidence to disprove Mason's story, starting with testimony from the guy who literally watched her read the text she claimed she was ignorant of.
I'll once again remind people: The felony she was convicted on was tax fraud: She was filing fraudulent affidavits, and advising her clients that, in the event the government noticed they were fraudulent, they could get off Scot free by claiming ignorance, that they'd just signed them without reading them.
The original court noticed that this was exactly what she was doing here, and didn't buy it. On appeal the court was ordered to buy it. But if you read the decision, it consists 99% of the court recounting exactly why she was guilty, before proceeding in the last few words to be painfully gullible and buy her story, as ordered.
Among the details the court had to ignore was that Mason testified under oath not having interacted with the poll worker, Dietrich, who testified watching her read the document. And another poll watcher confirmed that it was Dietrich.
The decision goes on and on, piling on evidence of her guilt, then finishing up by being as gullible as ordered to be. I think Birdwell really, really didn't want anyone mistaking him for an idiot, he wanted it Crystal clear that he was being forced to acquit her.
Obvious crap. Nobody testified that they watched her read specific text, which is fortunate because that would be physically impossible. He testified that he told her to read it and handed it to her. I assume you read every document that you are told to, including the terms of service for any licensed product, but most people do not.
And yes, trial courts aren't allowed to convict someone of a new crime using the facts of past convictions as evidence. Shocking, I know, since this is apparently the first time you've thought about criminal process, but I assure you it's true even if they do it in cartoons.
Nor can they decide guilt based on credibility alone. The court found her testimony incredible but didn’t establish the facts necessary to convict. The contrary testimony did not establish that she read and understood the affidavit.
Don't get me wrong, she is guilty! But the state failed to meet the high burden of reasonable doubt necessary to convict.
The reward for individual voter fraud is all but non-existent and barely accrues to the fraudster; "my candidate won by 10001 votes instead of 10000!" and it's offset if anyone commits voter fraud the other way. And the penalties are substantial.
The reward for cheating on taxes is substantial and personal; "I saved thousands of dollars on my taxes by conveniently forgetting some otherwise unreported income!" and the penalty may be little more than the benefit plus interest.
>1, Anything at scale would be detectable.
Why do you assert this?
From the OP: “recruiting thousands of noncitizens to engage in illegal voting would requires a large operation that would be extremely difficult to keep secret and otherwise bring off successfully. Everyone involved would be risking severe criminal liability, which would incentivize any participants who got caught to testify against the others involved, in order to get lighter sentences.
Secrecy would be even more difficult to maintain in light of the fact that the Republican Party (like the Democrats) employs a veritable army of election lawyers and monitors whose tasks include trying to ferret out any skullduggery by the opposition.”
Why would you need to recruit thousands of noncitizens?
Because of the described method (having many noncitizens vote) and because of the qualifier "at scale"? Because recruiting only hundreds of noncitizens would rarely swing partisan elections?
That's the numbers needed to swing elections.
"Why would you need to recruit thousands of noncitizens?"
You do not. You just have to recruit a few local election officials and poll workers.
Dems have controlled big cities forever. Everyone involved at the election office is a Dem. Everyone at the local DA is a Dem. No one is going to rat.
You just have to recruit a few local election officials and poll workers.
If you're going to strap on that flavor of tin foil, then I don't know why in the world you care about voter ID.
"why in the world you care about voter ID."
Because your side puts such energy into stopping it.
Because your side puts such energy into stopping it.
By that logic, all of the effort to oppose universal background checks for guns must be due to all of the gun rights supporters that want to buy and sell guns illegally.
Well, duh. Yeah, remember, we don't think buying and selling guns "illegally" is a constitutionally legitimate concept. It's like buying and selling books illegally, or speaking illegally, or worshipping illegally.
Imagine if you accused somebody opposed to censorship of wanting to buy and sell illegal books?
You do civil disobedience, Brett, you have to be willing to go to jail.
You try and get away with it, you’re just doing crimes and rationalizing.
You try and change the laws you don't like not to repeal them but just so people can get away with breaking them, you're a coward who would rather damage our country than deal with political consequences.
Yeah, screw that. That would be SO convenient for you, wouldn't it? Since getting caught violating these laws makes you a felon, forever prohibited from gun ownership, we'd just be volunteering to have our rights permanently removed.
This isn't like eating at a lunch counter and maybe getting a misdemeanor rap.
You fight to change laws you just "don't like", but you don't have to cooperate with efforts to destroy a civil liberty.
Putting the cart, as they say, before the horse, because the real motivations and actions don't stand up to scrutiny.
'No one is going to rat.'
Absence of evidence is, apparently, evidence.
Although one might not be able to catch a specific person, it's not hard to detect fraud itself on a widespread scale.
There is only evidence of one or two cockroachs. That all I ever see.
That cannot be called an infestation
Most of the cockroaches we do see are Republicans.
I can think of a couple of reasons why your attempted analogy between voting fraud incidents and vermin is faulty.
Hey guys, you don't have to worry about voting registration only requiring a SS number, which every illegal can get, because this super smart election law expert tells us that we know illegals don't vote because it's against the law for them to do so! His proof is that the DOJ doesn't prosecute any cases!
See? That's how we know it's not happening because the DOJ doesn't prosecute it! Just like those 2,4M illegal FISA searches. They didn't happen either, we know this because the DOJ didn't prosecute anyone AND it's against the law!
Please document your claim that there is a state where voter registration only requires a social security number. How would that even work, since the voter registration process at a minimum always requires proof of residency?
The anti-voting crowd are making arguments that could be used to take away my guns (*some* guns, after all, are used in terrible and/or illegal ways. A tiny fraction of all gun use, but if 'some' is enough...). Or, to take away alcohol (a small percentage of drinking is done and leads to harmful results. A larger percentage than for gun use/handling, but still.
The fact that a tiny tiny fraction of votes are cast illegally is such a non-issue. Of course we want the number of such votes to be zero in every election. But to take away voting from tens of thousands in a state, to avoid a dozen illegal votes is . . . well, suspect. (This is magnified by the fact that all evidence suggests that, for the small number of illegal votes, they actually reasonably-equally distributed. So, if a state with a million votes case, and 500 illegal votes case, it's probably the case that 275 voted for Candidate X, and 225 voted for Candidate Z. In other words, just a 50 vote gap. (Again, 50 fraudulent votes is 50 more than ideal. Duh. But it's not a big deal is almost every single election, and is [IMO] not worth the cost of imposing draconian voting regulations that result in poor people facing real obstacles to vote.
Here, if conservatives were saying, "We want new regulations, but we also want to throw a ton of money at the problem.", then I'd have a lot more sympathy. But I NEVER hear these conservatives say, "We should have much more in-person voting and much less mail-in voting. And to that end, we're spending $5 million in November, to ensure that ALL voting sites have so many voting areas and so many workers that there will be no wait of longer than 10-15 minutes, that ID cards will be available at no charge, at locations within 5 miles of everyone who lives in this state, for at least 6 months preceding the election, etc etc. If it's raining, the state will be paying for coverings for all lines of voters who are outside. If it's above xx degrees F, and yy humidity, then shade will be provided for each person waiting, and water will be freely available." Etc etc.
Because everyone knows the best way to get something done is to have the Federal Government spend billions doing it!
Just like that trillion-dollar inflation reduction act! We reduced inflation guys! Because we through trillions at the problem through efficient and necessary government spending!
Never is a strong word. "But I NEVER hear these conservatives say, “We should have much more in-person voting and much less mail-in voting." Here is one.
I believe it is the government's job to make the eligibility to vote as easy and secure as possible. I believe it is the government's job to keep the voting roll's as clean as possible. I believe it is the government's job to make the voting day experience as easy and secure as possible.
I also believe that the vote counting should be auditable from the vote origination to the counting and tabulation. Mail-in voting and drop box voting are not auditable from the time of vote origination to the counting and tabulation.
In Wisconsin the voter ID law included free IDs for anyone who declared they couldn't afford one (the government didn't require proof you were poor.) And yet one side not only opposed it, they tried to declare it unconstitutional.
You think that what you propose could be done for $5 million? Hah. You're off by several orders of magnitude. Run the numbers for what it would really cost just to staff ID locations within 5 miles of every house in your state. Bear in mind that primary elections are a thing (so you're 6 months from an election much of the time.) And remember that, whatever you decide to pay your workers, you're paying more than that; you need to pay federal payroll taxes, health insurance premiums, you need to have coverage if they call in sick or take a vacation... Once you get your total, divide that by the population of your state to get the per capita cost. Then decide that maybe your citizens have better things to spend that amount of money on.
I don't know much about the WI voter ID law, but I recall a study that the lack of transportation or documentation acted as a deterrent to a nontrivial number of voters in WI.
https://elections.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/483/2018/02/Voter-ID-Study-Release.pdf
2016. with error, thinks about 11.2% were deterred.
77% of those prevented from voting, cast ballots in the 2012 election before the ID law came into effect.
So here we have *evidence* that voter ID laws deter voters. Meanwhile side pushing for voter ID has supposition and paranoia.
“Most of the people who said they did not vote because they lacked ID actually possessed a qualifying form of ID”.
Then the PI goes on to conclude
” An eligible voter who cannot vote because of the ID law is disenfranchised, and that in itself is a serious harm to the integrity to the electoral process”
The ID law did not cause an eligible voter to not vote. Is there any other domain, other than voting, where confusion or ignorance of the law invalidates the law?
So, you don't have "*evidence*", you have specious conjecture and bias confirmation.
Well, sure, laws do get occasionally declared void for vagueness. But that's supposed to be when they're genuinely vague to the point where it's impossible to be sure what they actually mean, not just because some fraction of the population are idiots.
I don't think ID laws actually disenfranchise ANYBODY. Any more than having the polling places in specific locations does. Choosing not to comply with election laws is not the same as being unable to.
But a lot of people on the left today have Civil Rights Marcher envy. They really want to be part of some big fight against evil. And that requires there to BE an evil to fight.
So they can't admit the fight actually got won...
Here in North Carolina, every county board of elections will issue a picture ID for free. However, the voter must go to the board of elections office in person, and have the required documentation. If requiring ID does suppress the voting of some slice of the population, I'm not sure that procedure addresses the problem.
Any degree of inconvenience is going to suppress voting on the margins. But, notice, they never apply this reasoning to civil rights they don't like, such as gun ownership?
I'll care about their 'vote suppression' when it gets as bad as gun ownership suppression. Not before. They're perfectly happy to suppress civil liberties they dislike, there's no principle on display here.
As I said above, it is apparent that Republican operatives believe it suppresses some fraction of the voters, and that the fraction skews to the Democrats. I'm not sure if they are correct about that, but I assume they know their stuff.
As for gun ownership, I'm not sure who exactly you mean by "they," I'm betting a sigificant number of "they" don't agree with the current Supreme Court that there is an individual constitutional right to own a gun. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on gun ownership, but as a principle I think vote suppression is much worse for our country than gun ownership suppression. I could be wrong.
Two different interpretations.
1. Democrats are importing illegal voters.
2. Democrats are importing eventual socialist voters.
#1 lacks evidence.
#2 is an opinion. A genuine concern.
No, it's not a genuine concern. It'd be a very very stupid plan.
1. Check Latino voting patterns
2. What kind of ideological immovability are you assuming here??
3. No one is importing anyone - despite the entries GOP from radical to moderate being utterly convinced the border is open, the actual stats of border encounters say otherwise.
Democrats are importing illegal immigrants.
That's a fact.
As to why, that's an opinion.
If your opinion is "eventual socialist voters" you're retarded to the max.
USCIS are not Democrats and they aren’t importing anyone and just saying that’s a fact doesn’t change the tale the actual tracked numbers tell, nor the fact that no single party is Importing people, our agencies don’t work like that.
And the party preventing border policy from changing is the GOP.
Why would they, idiots like you are all in on their bullshit why rock the boat?
lol, good ol' Gaslightr0
lmao, yeah dude, it's the GOP suing every state trying to stem the Democrat invasion.
Sarcastr0, you are in denial. The border is literally open. And the Biden administration is literally importing illegal aliens, via an app sponsored by the government, and direct flights from Mexico and other places to places in the U.S. Haven't you heard about this???
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/02/15/migrant-encounters-at-the-us-mexico-border-hit-a-record-high-at-the-end-of-2023/
Look a the stat for expulsions.
Charitably, you seem to be going off the assumption that every illegal picked up asks for asylum, and then does not return for their hearing.
This is not the case.
Haven’t you heard about this???
I've heard lies about it, sure.
So as far as you understand it, Biden flying "refugees" in is a lie and it's not true?
No new goalposts, fucko.
What do they have to do with anything, though?
Most immigrants are hard workers, not slackers like the locals. Which party, on balance, do you figure such people would support?
Probbaly not the one that regards them as invading vermin. But that's not Democrats' fault, is it?
"good" immigrants feel, and are, more threatened by bad immigrants than natives are threatened by bad immigrants.
Instead of this bill, the Republicans should offer a bill eliminating vote by mail and requiring paper ballots and mandating audits. More uni-party posturing. Defeat theater.
Wait so you think the Dems and GOP are colluding?
Then why bother messing with voting at all? Mail in or no the fix is in. And post election it doesn’t matter who wins either.
When your conspiracy eats itself maybe you’ve tog some issues…
The GOP has been colluding with the Dems on illegals for decades.
Remember the “Gang of Eight” and their amnesty?
The GOP’s clients love the depressed wages. The Dem’s love perpetually campaigning on solving (“low wages”) problems they cause (“student loan crisis”, “healthcare crisis”, “homelessness crisis”, “mental health crisis”, “obesity crisis”, etc…).
The more problems there are, the more power and control the State gets, the richer the politicians families get and the richer the bureaucrats get.
Ghost, after you've eliminated vote by mail, please explain to me how active duty military personnel vote?
I don’t think there’s a problem of people with foreign allegiances voting in U. S. elections.
Whichever party was trying to pull such a thing would get noticed. But they weren’t noticed, presumably because there was nothing to notice.
On the other hand, welcoming immigrants, providing them a “path to citizenship,” then *after naturalization,* hoping they vote for a particular party…that sounds more plausible.
“any longterm Democratic plan to turn noncitizens into voters would have to reckon with the fact that even legal immigrants must (in most cases) wait at least five years to become citizens eligible to vote, and even then they must take a civics test that most native-born Americans would fail if they had to take it without studying. Congress could potentially pass a statute easing or eliminating these requirements. But that would be an heavier political lift than conventional legalization of status.”
True, it’s hard to make politicians think long-term, even in terms of five years. But if anything could make politicians willing to think five years in advance, it’s the possibility of gaining millions of votes. Award broad amnesty, then wait five years, encourage the amnestied people to get naturalized, teach them the material on the citizenship test, then hope for their votes once they’re naturalized – it’s all perfectly legal.
Would it work, in the sense of would the amnestied people vote they way they’re expected to? I don’t know. But don’t tell me there aren’t politicians thinking in those terms.
It’s not going to be five years for the vast majority.
What do you mean?
From legal immigrant to permanent resident to citizen does not generally take five years these days.
Minimum is not average. Looking at the average time to get a greencard and then from greencard to citizen it’s ten years, more if you are from Mexico, China, India, or the Philippines.
I was thinking of a "path to citizenship" which would allow amnesty to illegals ("dreamers," "undocumented") followed by the 5-year wait.
So rank speculation.
Rank actually proposed to Congress by the current administration, you mean?
The timeline is made up based in a made up policy, Brett.
Time to get Green card: 11 months Time to go from Green card to citizen: 15 months. Total: TWO years, two months. But, let me ask you:
How long did it take Indians to be naturalized in 1924? 101 days, starting from when the bill was introduced, until the President signed it.
That's the real worry: That having tens of millions of aliens living in the US is a ticking electoral time bomb, that can explode any time the Democrats have a more than razor thin majority in Congress, and the Presidency.
In the mean time, of course, those illegal immigrants are absolutely warping apportionment, thanks to being counted by the Census. And that amounts to having a vote, even if somebody else actually casts it.
“ In general, you may not file your Form I-485 until a visa is available in your category. ”
And there is is a backlog of available green cards.
And I don’t know what your other janky site was but here is the actual governmental stats I pulled from: https://www.uscis.gov/n-400
Your other speculation is as usual just thinking we live in a political thriller. We don’t. There will be no mass citizenshipification of illegals or immigrants or residents.
And it’s not warping of it is the law working as the Constitution lays it out. Quit amending it in your head.
If Sacastr0 says this, then we know it's a fact!
Right, it happened before, and Biden actually proposed doing it in '21, but it's categorically impossible for it to happen again.
You and WhitePride have fun with your Great Replacement conspiracy,
Here in the real world we deal with actual laws and proposed bills.
Yeah, Sarcastr0, the High Minded, only deals with THE FACTS!
And by "THE FACTS", he means only the narrow set of inventions approved by the narrative engineers at CIA, CISA, State, and other IC agencies.
1) Anyone coming in during the Biden administration will not affect apportionment until the 2032 elections.
2) Weird how the GOP keeps shipping illegal immigrants from their states to blue states, if apportionment is so important. It's almost like being self-sabotagingly performative.
There aren't politicians thinking in those terms. There are immensely easier ways of getting votes than by hoping for an amnesty and then waiting five years. Are you fucking serious? It'd be more effective to hope for Covid II and then encourage Republican voters not to vaccinate. Faster and more likely.
Democrats already have millions more voters than Republicans.
"So far as I have been able to tell from news reports, its biggest resulting prosecution of noncitizen voting came in 2020 in North Carolina, where a federal grand jury, following a DHS investigation, indicted 19 persons of varying nationalities for voting in the state's federal election. That's 19 persons too many to have voted..."
Similarly, there were like no prosecutions for sodomy for like 20 years prior to Lawrence v. Texas, so everybody but them is doing it missionary...
The rest of the OP details the manic GOP attempts to find anything and how they found nothing.
It also points out the impossibility of the vast conspiracy you seem to believe.
So what? That doesn’t make the reasoning I called out above legit. And who says what I believe? I just pointed out a piece of faulty reasoning, you partisan hack.
I think you should read the OP as a whole argument, not take a random paragraph and assume it must stand on it's own.
The OP's reasoning was the Trump administration aggressively looked for voter fraud, but could only come up very little. In contrast in your analogy, had someone aggressively looked for sodomy, they would have found it rampant.
Would they have though?
If the cops come to your house saying "Sodomy is illegal, have you committed it?"...who is going to be dumb enough to say yes? Beyond maybe 1-2 test cases?
Yes, they would have. Ask the neighbors. Ask the condom salesman. Ask the bar patrons.
"Ask the neighbors. Ask the condom salesman. Ask the bar patrons."
I mean, this is the same type of stuff that you're simultaneously saying isn't evidence for any evidence of voter fraud.
"Ask the neighbors, ask the bar patrons"...
If you do the same thing, you'll find lots of people who "know" there are some illegals voting.
"Ask the condom salesmen"
-Besides the point that those don't really exist, it's like tracking down the information through 2-3 different tracks...like trying to use the voter registration flaws to prove voter fraud. Same bits work.
“Ask the neighbors, ask the bar patrons”…
If you do the same thing, you’ll find lots of people who “know” there are some illegals voting.
Reputation evidence is not what Josh R seems to be talking about - neighbors, bar patrons, and condom salesmen would have actual incidents and observations that would be particularized evidence, if not proof by themselves.
You changed the subject.
.
Not in anywhere near a zillion miles from a distant galaxy to the numbers of gay people who engage in sodomy. If that were the case, then Trump's commission would have found these large numbers of people.
'I just pointed out a piece of faulty reasoning'
No, you treated a data point as a piece of reasoning.
It would help if that "election law expert" could tell better. Just months after those 19 were indicted, another two dozen were indicted as part of the same investigation.
In total, more than 70 charges were filed from that one narrowly focused investigation -- but hey, it's okay if they did not detect "a systematic program of registering noncitizens to vote in North Carolina", right?
Of those 40 people charged, only 21 appear to have been charged with voting while not being a citizen. (Note that this does not necessarily mean they're illegal immigrants.) None were charged with being part of any sort of vote fraud conspiracy. This is just 21 out of 4.7 million people who voted, or 0.00044%.
Absence of Evidence of Sodomy is not Evidence of Absence of Sodomy
A further weakness in the claim that large numbers of non-citizens have been voting is the failure to describe a mechanism by which this could take place. An immigrant, legal or illegal, cannot simply turn up and vote. He or she has to register, which requires evidence of citizenship. And registration is carried out by the states, many of which are controlled by Republicans. In the absence of a demonstration of serious flaws in the voter registration systems of multiple states, the idea that large numbers of non-citizens are voted is implausible.
The only evidence typically required to register to vote is a completed "motor voter" form, which you can see on the top half of page 3 of https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/eac_assets/1/6/Federal_Voter_Registration_ENG.pdf . States are prohibited from requiring any proof of citizenship beyond the voter's attestation on that form (Arizona v. Inter Tribal Council of Arizona, Inc., 570 U.S. 1 (2013)).
"He or she has to register, which requires evidence of citizenship."
Nope. It actually doesn't. In fact, in half of the states it's automatic when you interact with government, say get a driver's license, unless you opt out. The evidence of citizenship? Not checking a box.
So, say you're an illegal alien, also guilty of using fake ID, and you need a driver's license. Are you going to out yourself, or end up registered?
I mean, sure, you're committing a crime by not opting out. But, you're also committing that same crime in using fake ID to get the driver's license in the first place. Why draw attention to yourself?
No evidence of citizenship is required, beyond checking a box affirming one is a citizen. In fact, the Supreme Court has forbidden states from requiring evidence of citizenship to register to vote. Arizona v. Inter Tribal Council of Arizona, Inc., 570 U.S. 1 (2013) (Federal preemption prohibits states from imposing additional requirements to those provided for by federal law.)
Here is the language in the official federal voter registration form (available in 21 languages!):
[The word "identification" is actually misspelled both times on the online form, but close enough for government work, I guess.]
Putting aside the states that give driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, why on earth would an adult citizen not have a social security number?
https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/files/eac_assets/1/6/Federal_Voter_Registration_ENG.pdf
This article is nonsense because the issue described is false, meaning the notion of illegal aliens voting is false. This is a chaff article.
The true extent of Joe Biden getting 81 million votes is from other sources of fraud. Joe Biden himself stated "We have assembled the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of the United States" which is a true statement of fact for how Joe Biden 'became' a president.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4156387
addresses the false issues of "American democracy faces multiple serious challenges." Because it ignores the fundamental lack of proper representation by having only 435 members in the House.
The paper address, in part 3, "... ordinary citizens can be empowered to exercise greater “voice” ..." However, that is not a voice worthy enough. Any lack of 'voice' is from miniscule representation in Congress. Even raising the number to 1 for 30,000 will fail the People because of the national character of the current one-size-fits-all. It simply does not work on such a scale.
A better answer in addressing any "voice" of the People would be nine regional Congresses, each with 435 members, to give a better 'voice.' Bring Congress closer to the People by having more of them.
Yep. At first there was "there are almost no illegal votes". Then it was "there are not enough illegal votes to change elections". Then it was "there are not widespread illegal votes". Now the goalpost has been set at "there are not widespread illegal votes by noncitizens". And all this against the backdrop of it being extremely burdensome for states to check assertions by registrants as to their citizenship status -- and each of the earlier claims of integrity being proven false.
All those things are true, though.
I love when people just flat out fabricate arguments. At first, second, third, and fourth, it's that there are almost no illegal votes. Period.
You have been told numerous times why your Biden quote is false.
I suppose it is possible you've never seen any of those responses.
In any case, anyone with a few functioning brain cells could probably figure it out without being told.
'is from other sources of fraud.*'
*footage not found
While it's difficult to determine how many illegal aliens are voting, (Given the obstacles routinely thrown in the way of investigating anything vote fraud related.) and I suppose the absolute numbers are not huge, this is beside the point.
Somin: A perfectly serious question:
Do illegal aliens count for purposes of apportionment?
Why, yes, they do. Which means that they already 'have the vote' in a perfectly meaningful sense, it's just that somebody else casts their votes.
Neat new goalposts. Not anything that the OP was talking about,
Oh and what are the politics of the border states? Seem pretty evenly divided, if not pro GOP to me.
If you want more nativism amend our constitution to get it.
Did somebody put you in charge of planting goal posts around this conversation? You're awfully fond of hammering those things into the ground, to mark off what you're willing to discuss, and exclude anything you want left unmentioned.
The OP is denying that Democrats are importing illegal aliens for electoral gain. I thought it perfectly relevant that there actually ARE electoral consequences as a result of illegal aliens being in the country.
I'll grant you that the consequences are mixed, but they absolutely exist.
He's here to tut tut, tsk tsk, finger wag, and convince you what you see with your own eyes isn't real.
You appear to be objecting to the the OP using arguments against stuff not in the OP.
You also posit what if the Dems do this radical thing to gain permanent power.
They haven’t when given the opportunity and they won’t.
If the Dems were plotting what you posit, then why bother with immigration? Just exile conservatives. Or of course those camps you think are coming.
The required awfulness you posit is so extreme immigration policy wouldn’t be a road block to the tide of Dem illiberlaism.
The Dems have entrenched, institutional power in the federal agencies.
They took that when given the opportunity.
Oh, sorry Serious Sarcastr0, I forgot you only deal with The Real World(tm) and The Facts(tm), which you assert as such and we're all supposed to just accept.
This post of yours is a great example of the increasing right-wing attempt to curate their own alternative facts, based on vibes.
'While it’s difficult to determine how many illegal aliens are voting,'
And God knows the Republicans keep trying.
Cui bono? Why would a non-citizen, especially one who has entered the country illegally, risk prosecution by registering and voting illegally? What is the incentive? Registration typically involves listing a physical address, which is information an undocumented immigrant would likely be reluctant to give to a government agency. Many states require photo identification for voting, which may be difficult to obtain. The risk of detection and apprehension is high.
Why would an illegal be afraid of giving a government agency their address? They don't want their refundable EITC? Or their $5,000 debt cards? Or any of the other benefits the government showers on them?
Isn't the whole purpose of "sanctuary cities" and "sanctuary states" to announce to the illegals to not be afraid of government agencies?
You got tricked by the moved goalposts, I see. The original rant focused on illegal votes by non-citizens, not on votes by non-citizens who are here illegally.
"Why would an illegal be afraid of giving a government agency their address? They don’t want their refundable EITC? Or their $5,000 debt cards? Or any of the other benefits the government showers on them?"
What does any of that have to do with registering to vote or voting?
Each of those "typically involves listing a physical address, which is information an undocumented immigrant would likely be reluctant to give to a government agency." At least according to you.
Please try to keep up.
This guy is knee-jerk reactionary partisan posing as some respectable thinker and expert.
I imagine the whole legal profession is filled with dipshits like not guilty, or the Reverend, or vile Didn't Earn It's like KJB, Fani, or Letitia.
It's not the whole legal profession. There is usually a small group of disaffected right-wing misfits, such as Profs. Volokh and Blackman, hanging out in the corner, awkwardly, with the bigots, incels, clingers, and a minder from the Federalist Society.
WhitePride complaining other people are knee-jerk reactionary partisans, then just going off about black women he's heard about.
::chef's kiss::
Uh, each off topic example which #FFFFFFPride gives involves a benefit to the recipient or the potential thereof. Unlawfully registering and/or voting confers no such benefit.
So in your mind, illegals are too afraid to register to vote because giving the government their address exposes them to risk.
But not too afraid to give the government their address to get benefits.
Therefore, even though the illegals have already given the government their address to get benefits, they won't do it again to register to vote.
You don't really think about what you say, do you? If you thought about what you said for just a second before typing it out, you'd realize what a fool you sound like.
Unclear on the proposition that a reward is necessary to offset a risk, are we?
As I asked upthread, cui bono?
What risk? There is no govt agency actively looking for non-citizen voter fraud. The few times it's been found is when they accidentally admitted it like in this case - and this person wasn't prosecuted:
https://www.chicagoreporter.com/illegal-voting-case-puts-familys-future-in-limbo/
There are plenty of government agencies actively looking for voter fraud, as well as private organizations.
OK, find me an example of any law enforcement agency actively looking for non-citizens voting. If there are "plenty" then it should be easy! Checking the voter rolls, setting up sting operations, etc. You may find one or two, but it’s scant few. There is more law enforcement still looking for marijuana than there is for voter fraud.
"We know that there's lots of illegal voting taking place, and so any argument or evidence that it isn't must be untrue, as we know that there's lots of illegal voting taking place" - seems to be the general response to the article.
When Trump filed his amicus brief in the Supreme Court in the Texas v Pennsylvania case, there was no allegation of fraud or illegal voting, only the claim that the change of procedures made fraud more difficult to detect.
And in general the "you can't prove a negative" gang here have reversed the evidentiary burden, If you claim that there is lots of illegal voting, it's incumbent on you to prove it. No-one has yet managed to do so.
How many non-citizens are registered to vote? We know there are non-citizens registered. I ask how many? Can we find that out?
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/19-aliens-charged-voter-fraud-north-carolina-following-ice-investigation
https://apnews.com/article/immigration-elections-voting-north-carolina-voter-registration-f31d10982b99a203eaa378f1a1d4bffc
Here's a list of what info is (and isn't) public about the voter rolls in my home state of Wisconsinland:
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/misc/lc/issue_briefs/2022/elections/voter_information_kbo_2022_04_07
Go look at the voter rolls. If there are lots and lots of illegal voters - be they non-citizens, felons, whatevs - they're listed in a public record. Motivated people, including private entities, not just law enforcement, should be able to find out and expose them.
There are obviously motivated people. Maybe they should get a few Koch dollars and expose all the rampant illegal voting.
The last time I heard of somebody trying something like that, they got accused of 'voter intimidation' and the courts shut them down.
Democrats spent Trump’s entire term proclaiming he is a white supremacist, a Russian plant, literally Hitler, etc. Then they say despite all that, they wouldn’t actually cheat to keep orange Hitler from being reelected. Quite frankly after all their melodramatics the onus is on them to prove they didn’t cheat. Note I am not alleging any specific scheme (such as the OP is arguing against), rather that leftists will do absolutely anything to keep Trump from staying or returning to power.
Would they attack the Capitol?
Would they forge and try to submit Electoral College elector documents?
Would they eagerly accept help from the Russians?
Poorly educated, gullible, un-American right-wing bigots are among my favorite culture war casualties -- and the core target audience of a white, male, bigot-hugging, faux libertarian blog with a vanishingly thin academic veneer.
Are you on your period? Shouldn't that have stopped at your age?
These are your people, Volokh Conspirators -- and the reason Leonard Leo may be sending his jet to ferry one of you out of academia and to a more fitting spot at a paid right-wing mouthpiece shop.
(Do you guys get to sit in Clarence Thomas' seat on that aircraft, or is that one reserved for people who contribute votes and money rather than just flackery?)
You're pretty dramatic yourself...maybe we should keep you from voting, lest you do a fraud!
And unlike your post, no nutpicking needed - you are a nutbag of one!
Note I am not alleging any specific scheme...rather that leftists will do absolutely anything to keep Trump from staying or returning to power.
Unfalsifiable paranoia.
How do you manage leave your house, with all these Dems seeking to stamp out Trump votes?
A government agency charged with protecting the nation believes the nation is under a threat. What does that agency do?
A government agency charged with protecting the nation believes the nation is under a threat from Trump and MAGA voters. What does that agency do?
Sacrastr0: "Nothing, you conspiracy nutter!!!!!"
Boy your telepathy sure finds some unprofessional liberals out there!
Well, IIRC you've answered a similar question similarly.
They literally say Trump would usher in a dictatorship and that MAGA voters are threats to national security. And federal agencies say similar things too.
And at the same time argue no bureaucrat or agency would do anything to protect the country from these threats and to suggest they would/do is just a conspiracy theory.
Our very freedom is threatened, but our agencies aren't going to do anything about it?
Actually, a disturbing number of elite Democrats are willing to cheat -- and accept cheating by their party -- to get the election results they want: https://ricochet.com/podcast/daily-signal/most-terrifying-poll-result-ive-ever-seen-scott-rasmussen-on-elite-1/ . 69% of the most politically active "elite 1%"ers.
Now watch, Sacrastr0 just earlier cited a survey as "*evidence*" that Voter ID laws disenfranchise voters.
Now, he will shit on your link and tut tut you for being such a conspiracy based nutter relying on anecdotes and russian disinfo.
Yes, Rasmussen is a nutjob whose polls have not been accurate in ages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasmussen_Reports#Evaluations_of_accuracy_and_performance
Can you find anything about the methodology here? I sure can't!
Woah, wikipedia? Now that’s an authoritative source for political and controversial information!
Thanks for the share, Sarcastr0, the High Minded! I slink away convinced by your amazing and strong arguments!
Good Day To You, Great Sir!
*tips fedora*
*bows deeply*
*curtsies*
*twirls and vanishes*
*toot toot*
Now, he will shit on your link and tut tut you
Stop hitting yourself!
'Democrats spent Trump’s entire term proclaiming he is a white supremacist, a Russian plant, literally Hitler, etc.'
Trump's most endearing schtick to his supporters is calling his opponents mean names. Big whoop.
'Quite frankly after all their melodramatics the onus is on them to prove they didn’t cheat.'
Oh yeah, it was the Democrats with the melodrama around and after the 2020 election.
'rather that leftists will do absolutely anything to keep Trump from staying or returning to power.'
All they ended up doing was voting. Look at how Trump and his supporters reacted to losing a vote in a democratic election and tell us again who's willing to do anything.
"I suppose their unstated premise could be that some future blanket amnesty would combine with a decree of mass naturalization to eventually enable these millions to vote lawfully. That would require an act of Congress that would go vastly beyond Reagan's amnesty or any other step in memory and would assuredly not be thinkable in current politics."
Well, that's the very point! There won't be widespread voter fraud, the Dems will turn these illegals they imported into legal voters, step by step. It's already happening at the local level in many places, "Yes, more than a dozen municipalities allow undocumented immigrants to vote in some or all local elections. " (see Verifythis.com) They will gradually be allowed to vote almost anywhere that matters, swing states, etc. And then, over time, they will either be granted amnesty, made citizens, or be allowed to vote in federal elections, or all three. The Dem/prog long game. And, they will vote Democratic, as the poor immigrant always votes for Santa Claus. Or should I say some nefarious Robin Hood, who steals from the taxpayer and gives to the illegal immigrant.
Authoritarian fuckheads been doing unsupported fan fiction they call the 'The long game' since at leas the Popish Plot.
You also have a fear of Latinos that does not understand who they are or that people change how they vote over time.
The "fan fiction" is written by the political left who are openly cheerleading the "browning of America".
https://democracyjournal.org/magazine/25/the-browning-of-america/
https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-great-replacement-theory-on-the-west-wing/
That's no proof of a worldwide 8 centuries long conspiracy!
Sincerely,
Sarcastr0
Eight centuries ago, some dude said, y'know what, let's have a big conspiracy to get all the white people out of America. First, let's get some white people.
John Rohan:
1. You're arguing a different thesis from ThePublius's Great Replacement Accelerated theory ("They will gradually be allowed to vote almost anywhere that matters, swing states, etc. And then, over time, they will either be granted amnesty, made citizens, or be allowed to vote in federal elections, or all three. The Dem/prog long game.")
2. Your sources do not support The Great Replacement theory.
-Your first is a 2012 op ed that is not really celebrating much, and misapprehending the Latino cohort as leftist pro-immigration. Which has not been borne out in the ensuing decade
-Your second...you are disproving an accusation of fan fiction by citing the West Wing. Did you think this through?
Bottom line, anyone citing a hidden political "long game" by any group, left right or Catholic, is a conspiracy theorist even above the Great Replacement white supremacist conspiracy theory.
I know right? Everyone knows there are no groups who have long term visions for the world and then try and implement them!
That's just crazy talk! No one wants do that!!!!! Totes conspiracy!
I guess you missed where I described this as "fan fiction". Yes, the "West Wing" is fiction - that's the whole point.
'the Dems will turn these illegals they imported into legal voters, step by step.'
Non-nationals get nationalised. Republicans appalled because they've been so racist those naturalised citizens might not vote for them.
'Or should I say some nefarious Robin Hood, who steals from the taxpayer and gives to the illegal immigrant.'
They pay taxes, too.
I personally know — am friends with, am the godfather to her children — a Venezuelan national who votes in every local election in an immigrant-heavy section of New Jersey. She does it because she’s allowed to. She doesn’t vote in national races, but only because she knows she’s not supposed to. There’s nothing stopping her from doing so. So let’s not pretend that this isn’t a problem. When we set up a system that’s designed not to even look for certain types of votes, we’re not going to find those votes — but they’ll be there.
"I know someone who does something legal and doesn't do something illegal. So obviously there's a problem with people doing this thing illegally."
She doesn’t vote in national races, but only because she knows she’s not supposed to. There’s nothing stopping her from doing so.
From my experience, I municipal elections do not mean you are just waived through for federal elections.
Anecdotes are not evidence.
You say in defense of Jdfreivald's anecdote.
When did you become such a great mindreader?
Your comment is the root of this thread. Why would you think I was defending their comment?
I keep trying to read your mind to find out myself, but all I keep picking up is circus music and a bunch of clowns pouring out of a teeny tiny car.
Sarcasto talks to a lot of people who coincidentally always support his position. His anecdotes are science.
Confirmation bias, Bob.
When I don't have an experience that's on point, I don't post about it.
Your bare accusations of lying remain nothing more than that.
Just coincidence when you do have "experience that’s on point" every person supports you.
What I don't get is why you do it, its transparently BS and hence useless as rhetoric. Oh well, carry on.
I do at times post a 'to be fair' followed by countervailing information.
But yeah, I have no doubt I don't remember anecdotes that go against my preferred narrative as well.
That's me being human and all.
because he's specifically quoting language from the post by Jdfreivald immediately above his own. It's a slight reply fail, true, but it's also obviously a reply to the immediately preceding anecdote ... at least to anyone with the reading comprehension skills of a 4th grader.
How many comments can you see at a time on your phone and why do you think everyone comes into these things and reads top to bottom?
It's poor craftsman that blames their tools.
The only tool I'm blaming is you.
Getting your information out of order may explain a lot of your problems.
The root of this discussion is Prof. Somin pointing out that right-wing election kooks are daft.
The other Conspirators surely dislike this bashing of their core audience -- gullible, bigoted, uneducated, worthless misfits -- but Prof. Somin (the lone libertarian at this white, male, right-wing blog) seems undeterred.
I know that you don’t believe anything that doesn’t align with your prejudices, but let me say explicitly that she has had the opportunity to vote for national office and has refused to do so. She has even had people ask her why she doesn’t vote in national elections, and found her answer unconvincing — I mean, you live here, why wouldn’t you? is the attitude.
You don’t want to believe this is a problem, Sarcastro, but there could be thousands of non-citizens voting for national offices in that municipality alone, and the system is 100% set up not to notice.
No large-scale conspiracy required, by the way. Pretty much all of the reasons you suggest for why it can’t happen are false. It’s no problem for non-citizens — now including illegals — to get a driver’s license anymore, and motor-voter registration makes it easy to register to vote, and getting people who don’t speak English to vote for the “right” candidate is trivial. Most of the fliers I saw in the poorer parts of town were just photocopies of the ballot with the “right” names circled.
Your BS story is BS. What makes you or your "friend" think that there's nothing stopping her from voting in a national election if she hasn't even tried? And even if she has tried, how does she know it's counted? You need a lot more evidence to have anything approaching a compelling argument.
Which is true of 100% of the MAGAs posting here. It all comes down to a sick combination of distrust and paranoia.
The best thing for the rest of us to do is to point out how insanely stupid you are as a warning to others, and then let the cult slowly die away as it burns itself out. It worked for QAnon, and all the dumbass cults that came before. It'll work for MAGA eventually.
“ What makes you or your “friend” think that there’s nothing stopping her from voting in a national election if she hasn’t even tried?”
Election days where she’s had the opportunity to vote in national elections. But I see that most of your efforts are targeted toward tarring your adversaries as QAnon, so there’s no point in talking to you.
I have "opportunities" to vote illegally too. So do you. So does everybody, immigrant or not.
You're not saying anything meaningful. The fact that you can't see that makes me think you don't really care. You're just here to spew MAGA BS and run away when challenged.
As usual foreigners have decided a recent election and it went for Republicans. So Cubans had an outsized influence on our elections because they could get citizenship within one year of setting foot on our soil AND they happened to settle in the swing state Florida. So Republicans went nutz trying to keep a toddler away from his father just to appease Cuban Americans and Cubans about to get citizenship in 2000…totally nutz.
Just what is "your experience"?
Voting in federal and local elections in CA, and VA.
Local elections have like one woman checking names, from the locality. When it's a federal election, they're rolling in with at least 4 plus election observers.
Seems relying just on convictions to demonstrate non-citizen voting is a bit logically deficient. It's like relying on speeding tickets to see how many people on I-95 are exceeding the speed limit.
Perhaps different options should be looked at. I'd love to see an exit poll that has the following question put on it as well. "Please tell us, are you a Green Card Holder, US Citizen, or other?".
The results of that question would be enlightening.
Of course, they have done these surveys before. They've indicated that a small, but substantial % of non-citizens have voted.
https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Do-Non-Citizens-Vote-in-US-Elections-Richman-et-al.pdf
I remember this one, it's a case study for a certain kind of statistical error in big data-based studies:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0261379415001420
The advent of large sample surveys, such as the Cooperative Congressional Election Study (CCES), has opened the possibility of measuring very low frequency events, characteristics, and behaviors in the population. This paper documents how low-level measurement error for survey questions generally agreed to be highly reliable can lead to large prediction errors in large sample surveys, such as the CCES. The example for this analysis is Richman et al. (2014), which presents a biased estimate of the rate at which non-citizens voted in recent elections. The results, we show, are completely accounted for by very low frequency measurement error; further, the likely percent of non-citizen voters in recent US elections is 0.
Yeah, that's a really dumb paper.
They took the result of a couple large surveys (30k and 50k people) and identified a handful of respondents (1%) who claimed to be non-citizens who had voted.
Of course you expect people will make mistakes filling out surveys (check wrong box, or were non-citizens who later became citizens and voted, etc). If 1% of people in a survey claim to be 10ft tall are you going to believe that?
But it fits their narrative so they just take that tiny number at face value and extrapolate it to the entire population to come up with a laughable conclusion.
How many non-citizen votes were likely cast in 2008?
Taking the most conservative estimate e those who both
said they voted and cast a verified vote e yields a con-
fidence interval based on sampling error between 0.2%
and 2.8% for the portion of non-citizens participating in
elections. Taking the least conservative measure e at
least one indicator showed that the respondent voted e
yields an estimate that between 7.9% and 14.7% percent
of non-citizens voted in 2008. Since the adult non-
citizen population of the United States was roughly
19.4 million (CPS, 2011), the number of non-citizen
voters (including both uncertainty based on normally
distributed sampling error, and the various combinations
of verified and reported voting) could range from just
over 38,000 at the very minimum to nearly 2.8 million at
the maximum.
"They took the result of a couple large surveys (30k and 50k people) and identified a handful of respondents (1%) who claimed to be non-citizens who had voted"
But here's the thing..some of these cases were VERIFIED.
Is there a reason there was never a follow up to this type of study? Because..you can't find what you don't look for.
Yeah, why didn't they do another study with a small enough subsample that error dominates???
Proof of the conspiracy is the lack of proof of the conspiracy.
They supposedly verified that some people who claimed to be non-citizens who voted did actually vote. The number is surprisingly hard to dig out but it might be as low as 5.
More importantly, they DIDN'T verify their status as non-citizens. All they did is establish they were demographically similar to non-citizens. But that could easily mean citizens with language difficulties (making them more likely to make an error in a survey).
In a few years, we’re going to get bombarded with messages that the fact that migrants can’t vote is gross miscarriage of social justice. The media, academia, Hollywood will unite in this message. People who oppose this view will be publicly canceled for being bigot-racist. Social media will censor opposing views.
And what we’re told was impossible in 2024 will become mandatory and a thoughtcrime to oppose in a few years.
I hope that when Ilya writes his “I didn’t see that coming” post, he acknowledges we tried to warn him.
More paranoid fan fiction.
Since Ilya already believes the US govt doesn't have the constitutional authority to regulate immigration, I have a feeling he already supports non-citizens voting.
But *gasp* they would never do that, that's illegal!
Sincerely
Walter Olson, Law Expert Extraordinaire, PhD, Esquire, MBA, ND
"The media, academia, Hollywood will unite in this message. People who oppose this view will be publicly canceled for being bigot-racist. Social media will censor opposing views"
Are you agreeing with this?
I find it humorous to focus on the conspiratorial explanations for non-citizens to vote, illegally, and ignore the actual threat that Democrats pose in their efforts to legalize non-citizen voting. If they can’t do it in federal elections, they can try in state and local elections, and try, they do.
The New York City Council ALREADY PASSED a law legalizing non-citizen voting in NYC elections. (see the law here [NYC Int 1867-2020].) The law was only recently found unconstitutional in a NY State court. The court pointed out how the state constitution only provides for “citizens” to vote. The City Council interprets “citizens” means citizens and non-citizens. (This is the assertion of people who write our laws.)
(Remember: The definitions of all their words are fungible, and their concepts are boundless.)
A local law was struck down on state constitutional grounds.
This is surely a sign of a grand plot.
Here's a Ballotpedia article, Laws permitting noncitizens to vote in the United States. Just sharing a non-conspiratorial perspective on significant efforts, by Democratic lawmakers, to extend voting rights to non-citizens.
The District of Columbia and municipalities in three states allowed noncitizens to vote in local elections as of March 2024
Given these are the outcomes, I challenge your characterization of 'significant efforts.'
If it's not being done illegally and in secret, then what's the problem? You disagree with it, of course, but so did most everyone else, it turns out.
There always has to be *something* to the stupidest Republican conspiracies and claims, no matter how deep you have to dig, how small the thing is, how completely different from the actual claim and conspiracy. There has to be a Democrat ‘threat!’
2000 and 2004 were decided by foreigners—Cubans to be precise. The most insane thing we ever did was give Cubans fast track citizenship along with Florida being a swing state.
Here we go again. I have a lot of respect for Walter Olsen, but this is more of the same debunked talking points the Dems repeat constantly.
1. So a few prosecutions of non-citizen voting means it hardly ever happens? So if California Highway Patrol only hand out 10 speeding tickets in a day, that means only 10 people actually exceeded the speed limit on that day? Yeah right. It's kind of hard to find voter fraud if you aren't looking for it. Or even prosecuting it. Here's an example where some migrants ADMITTED to voting illegally, but they still weren't prosecuted for it.
https://www.chicagoreporter.com/illegal-voting-case-puts-familys-future-in-limbo/
2. Trump's voter fraud commission disbanded because dozens of states filed lawsuits to block them from accessing their voter data. If there was no voter fraud - why were they so damn worried?
3. In my own state (Virginia) in 2020 it was pretty damn easy for any ineligible person to vote if they wanted to. All they had to do was fill out a paper registration form, check the box that they are eligible to vote, and mail it in. Easy peasy. No one was out there checking, and no one verified squat.
In my own state (Virginia) in 2020 it was pretty damn easy for any ineligible person to vote if they wanted to.
The issue is not whether it's easy, but how often it occurs. The GOP talking point is to conflate the two.
(Given the gross asymmetry between reward and punishment for illegal voting, one would expect the number of illegal voters to be low.)
That's just as true as saying that given the reward and punishment for illegal entry to the United States, the number of illegal immigrants would be low. Same with murder. I don't think your view of potential lawbreakers is particularly compelling.
In some states, such as California, poll workers are not permitted to look at official ID, such as driver's licenses, to look up records, even when that ID is offered without a request. Seems like a system open for abuse. Had I been so inclined, I could have gone to any polling station, presented myself as any registered voter, and cast a ballot.
As you and others have pointed out, just because abuse is easy, it doesn't mean it happens. I have a cynical enough view of human nature to believe that when abuse is easy and nobody is trying to find it or control it, it happens a lot.
What punishment?
Being a Chicago native, you'll excuse me if I view this entire discussion of "The Myth of Election Meddling" as an exercise in humor. Instead I'll re-read a profile of "Bathhouse John Coughlin" and "Hinky Dink McKenna", 2 of Chicago's more "colorful" early political figures.
They also relied on paper ballots as the primary tool for their personal interpretation of "election security".
You want to live in pre-WW2, good luck with that.
The concern about illegal immigrants affecting politics is probably less about illegitimate immigrants voting and more about impact on state elector count and representative count (which considers ballooning total population). Though there are local elections where illegal aliens are allowed to vote.
“Difficult to keep it a secret” - I mean, assuming people care to keep anything a secret anymore.
Just like the "non-existent" voter fraud, you don't find it until you look for it, and then the left declares it minimal.
Well, minimal is too damned much
Until you have proof, quit whining and shut the fuck up, clingers.
Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it will not be done. A statement of citizen ship on a voter registration form is not much of a deterrent for illegal voting. Keeping a low profile is more probably more effective.
Are you trying to explain why it's not really "a thing"?
Most jury summons are done off the voter rolls. Wouldn't one be able to see if potential jurors are dismissed for not being citizens to determine if there are noncitizens in the voter rolls? Or are noncitizens allowed to serve on Juries?
Look. This entire argument is a non-sequitur. Because that's not what people are concerned about.
There is no boogeyman about a random guy casting a ballot. The argument has always been about organized ballot box stuffing, especially with mail-in ballots and biased ballot counters. You need only a handful of party loyalists to pull it off. They don't even need to be formally organized. You can get plenty of standalones, tell them to "definitely not do this" and give them motivation, and with the religious fervor against Trump, you can definitely find that.
Sorry, but this article has created a strawman while ignoring the express arguments of their opposition.