The Volokh Conspiracy
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I've Won an Argument about Israel I Wish I Hadn't
Over my 20+ years of blogging at Volokh, commenters have often questioned why I focused my attention on what I saw as unfair attacks on Israel, rather than on Israeli policies I disagreed with that might be obstacles to a future peace deal. My response was consistent: debates over specific Israeli policies were a sideshow. Israel's harshest critics simply wanted Israel to cease to exist, and given that this goal could likely be achieved only via genocide, I chose to focus my attention on that. My commenters were also pretty consistent, arguing that I was being paranoid, that the vast majority of critics, even the harshest ones, wanted a two-state solution, not to eliminate Israel.
We have had something of a test of this debate since 10/7. Hamas is a terrorist theocracy with explicitly genocidal goals. It carried out a taste of those goals on 10/7, and its leaders promised to repeat those atrocities again and again until the "Zionists" were driven from Israel.
So whatever one thinks of Israeli policy, or Israel's eventual response to 10/7, one would think, based on my interlocutors' position, that critics of Israeli policy would nevertheless agree on one thing: Hamas must be deposed, one way or another. There is no plausible two-state solution with Hamas in power; the harsh critics are almost all self-styled progressives, and there is nothing progressive about Hamas's policies toward freedom of religion, LGBTQ rights, women, militarism, antisemitism, and so on, nor its constant theft of humanitarian aid. Hamas's rule in Gaza is essentially every Progressive's worst nightmare.
Yet, ever since at least 10/10, when it became clear that Israel's reaction to Hamas's atrocities was not going to be to capitulate, the harsh critics have been all but unanimous in calling for Israel to essentially surrender ("immediate ceasefire") with Hamas still in power, and have almost to a person not called on Hamas to surrender and abdicate. (And self-styled human rights organizations have felt free to make up human rights law, including contradicting their own past public positions in other conflicts.)
I have to admit that I underestimated the mendacity of these people. As much as I knew that they hated Israel much more than they were concerned with the well-being of Palestinians, I didn't imagine that they would be willing to run interference for, if not outright support, Hamas, certainly not after Hamas put its brutality and genocidal intentions on display for all the world to see. I would have expected something more like "immediate ceasefire, but the world has to work on replacing Hamas with something else."
Of course, there are those who take the latter position, or the Biden position, which is to support Israel but be critical of specific wartime policies and the lack of a long-term plan. But the remarkable thing is that I have yet to see even this position among the harder left: "I wish Hamas would surrender and release the hostages, because that would be good for all sides, but since I don't think it's possible to get Hamas to surrender, I think Israel needs to desist for humanitarian reasons."
Indeed, if you ask prominent folks on X, people who are complaining the loudest about civilian suffering in Gaza, "would you prefer the war go on, or that Hamas release the hostages and surrender," basically no one is willing to say publicly that he or she would prefer Hamas to surrender. Israel losing is more important than ending civilian suffering in Gaza, than any sort of peaceful resolution of the conflict (which obviously requires an end to Hamas rule), than innocent hostages being released, or anything else. If you are a progressive and you find yourself carrying water for a truly reactionary, genocidal organization like Hamas, maybe it's time to do some soul-searching.
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"Hamas must be deposed" /= "Hamas must be deposed at all cost"
It would be nice if a law professor cared about the rule of law at least occasionally.
I believe you missed the point he was trying to make
Disagreeing with aspects of the Israeli response - ie, believing it goes to far - does not equate to ignoring the barbarity of the Hamas attack or it's stated desire to repeat the rape, murder and kidnapping of October 7th.
Most people deplore the barbarity of the Hamas attack.
An increasing number of people -- especially educated, modern, reasoning, mainstream people in the United States and elsewhere -- have tired of Israel's barbarity, too.
Better Americans don't support Hamas.
They don's support the right-wing assholes of Israel, either.
That is a lesson Israel and its right-wing supporters seem destined to learn the hardest way.
Nobody gives a fuck about what a disgraced Defensive Coordinator at a Mid-Level Mediocre Foo-Bawl program thinks.
You’ll be begging the liberal-libertarian mainstream alliance to reconsider the decision to stop subsidizing Israel.
I hope the mainstream is resolute about terminating support for Israel’s right-wing jerks
Somin-Rev,
Your ‘mainstream’ America is about to wake up to the fact that it’s neck-deep in a cold war where the other side is fighting an intifada against the global systems imposed upon it BY your progressive-liberal mainstreamers.
It’s not just a cold war you’re likely to lose, but also one wherein the right AND the middle is waking up to what you’ve really been up to for several decades: a disastrous, anti-rule of law, unempirical—social re-engineering project for America and the world. This will undoubtedly lead to large-scale political violence in the United States, not just a complete collapse of enlistment in the American military.
You are so screwed it is unbelievable. It’s rather YOU who is in for a rude (understatement of the epoch) awakening, as your entire ideology collapses, and you are seen by your own countrymen, own neighbours, as totalitarian imperialist fuckwits who ruined their country.
Where do you plan on hiding your children?
The "harshest way"? WTF are you blathering on about?
The harshest way would be a ceasefire and Hamas not only going about their vicious ways but doubling down and carrying out these types of atrocities elsewhere.
Frankly, Israel hasn't gone quite far ENOUGH.
Release all hostages and we won't blow you to hell is the proper response.
Blow *who* to hell?
Every single Palestinian in Gaza
Ask the Germans who lived in Berlin during WWII about that.
Or that Japanese who lived in Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Are you saying 'Hamas must be deposed at minimum practicable cost' (which I would agree with) or 'there is a cost at which Hamas should not be deposed'?
If the latter, for context, what's the maximum cost you would have paid to depose the Nazis?
In WWII, the allies we quite careful not to attack civilians, even so far to refrain from attacking civilian that were used by the German military. We regularly had cease fires to allow the German military time to regroup and rearm. We facilitated shipments of supplies to Germany even knowing the German military would take a good chunk of those supplies for themselves. We even provided power and water to Germany.
Wait, no, we attacked them till they surrendered unconditionally.
"In WWII, the allies we quite careful not to attack civilians,..."
With the notable exception of the strategic carpet bombing of cities.
Try reading the whole comment next time.
The Israel Hamas fight is more like a civil war than a World War. The analogy doesn't hold up to the change in scope and context.
1. No it's nothing like a civil war.
2. Even if it were, civil wars are not typically contested with pillow fights, and marshmallow bombardments. My recollection is that the US military casualties in the Civil War were higher than in both World Wars put together, before we move on to the incomparably higher civilian casualties. Casualties during the Russian Civil War were at least double those in the First World War, and getting on for half those in the Second.
It would be fairer to say that the Israel-Hamas conflict is a very small scale conflict, with the weaker side "fighting" with no constraints at all, while the stronger has self-imposed very significant constraints on its actions. Which accounts for the high Israeli casualties in the initial Arab attack, and the low casualties* on the Arab side per unit of ordnance used by the Israelis in response.
*notwithstanding Hamas's laughably inept casualty figure inventions
[Israel] has self-imposed very significant constraints on its actions. Which accounts for... the low casualties* on the Arab side per unit of ordnance used by the Israelis
Hahahaha this might be the funniest thing I've ever read on the Conspiracy. So... Israel is constraining itself... not by using less ordinance against the Palestinians, which is what people are asking for, but by being less accurate? Inefficiency is its refuge? Oh my god that's hysterical.
It's been interesting (and a little sad) watching the credibility of the Zionists slowly wash away since October. That's how Hamas is winning. You are their greatest weapon. You and David and the ADL.
No, Randal, you're just obtuse. Either that or you're speaking without any knowledge of what you're talking about.
In urban warfare, particularly within the last 50 years, civilian deaths have typically been more than double the number of fighter deaths and often a lot more (as much as 9 times). Even using Hamas's numbers, if there were 30,000 deaths in Gaza, and (at least according to Israel) there have been 12,000 fighters killed, that means Israel has reduced the typical ratio to around 1.5:1 -- and that is in an environment unlike any other in history, where most civilian infrastructure has been militarized and the enemy is in fortified tunnels. My sources for this are from the urban warfare expert at West Point. Articles here - https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613
https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891
If you had even an inkling what you were talking about you wouldn't let loose with the sort of drivel you just did.
What has any of that got to do with Lee’s amazing “casualties per unit ordinance” metric?
If anything, those articles' lauding of precision munitions would imply that the "casualties per unit ordinance" inflicted by Israel should be unusually high compared to, for example, carpet-bombing.
Randy, gay (i.e., evolutionary dud, unequal) Americans like yourself won't be laughing too much longer as your efforts to impose your sex and gender ideologies upon the world all come to fail during this new cold war (one which you'll lose, of course). This is what the Global South actually thinks of your BS, and it is NOT going to change by claiming that they're just 'bigoted' or 'ignorant' because they're not:
https://misbar.com/en/factcheck/2022/06/16/this-anti-lgbtq-billboard-is-from-bahrain-not-qatar
The Zionists are losing because the Empire is desperate to have the Islamic world and Gulf on its side, and not the Chinese's. Otherwise, there'd be more open talk about Islam as such, its incongruence with Western values and Western democracy, let alone about international law... Regardless, again, the Empire is losing and shall lose this new cold war---including on the European Continent, where people across the political spectrum can see they live in puppet regimes.
Oh, and if it'd been anyone else fighting there now, there'd be hundreds of thousands of dead Palis since October, not a few thousand. That is the point. An AMERICAN, who knows, or should know, what its own country did in Serbia, in Iraq, etc, ought to know something about comparative civilian casualty rates.
OK doomer.
If you think
comparative civilian casualty rates
are measured incasualties... per unit of ordinance
then you’re just as stump-dumb as your mates Chesterton and Lee here.Never said that it was.
But nice try, though.
Then your post is a 100% non-sequitur. Either way it's 50%. Sex and gender ideologies? Not every issue revolves around sex and gender (for us normal people).
You’re not normal. Why pretend to be? Not that normal's so great...
Didn't say everything revolved around them either. (How are you making these inferences?) They nevertheless play a large role in your global project, which is facing global backlash.
Hamas is winning?
Now THAT is comedy gold right there.
They're begging for a ceasefire - meaning ISRAEL should cease firing, and crybabying about "genocide" while giving no shelter to civilians.
This "women and children first" thing has obviously not caught on there.
Hamas is accomplishing all of their original goals, so you could call that winning, yes.
LOL.
That's pretty stupid.
LOL
General Sherman would like a word.
"more like a civil war"
Think again. It is a clash of cultures.
"Never again" means "never again."
It is a clash of cultures.
That’s exactly what makes it like a civil war.
World Wars are clashes of power. You sort of have to go all out in order to prove who’s the more powerful.
Clashes of culture have a very different dynamic, such as self-constraint playing a greater role. You have to choose between annihilating the opposing culture, or merely defeating it. The latter option comes with the prospect of having to figure out how the two opposing cultures can live together afterward.
To that extent, I don't disagree with you.
A clash of civilizations does not necessarily a civil war make.
It can, though. Perhaps America's next civil war will be characterised along those lines.
“Never again” means “never again.”
Apparently it means kills thousands and thousands of children.
So long as you can get away with it, anyway.
Better Americans will put Israel on a leash. If Israel is lucky. And still around.
Isn't putting "People"(People, right) on leashes why you're (Safely) ensconced at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
Ironically (dontcha think?) you would have had (emphasis on "had") a better chance of a Commutation with a Senator Oz, Medical Professionals are more likely to buy the Bullshit about Sexual Offenders having a "Disease".
With S-S-S-S-S-t-t-t-t-uttering John Fetterman? not so likely,
he might be a Stuttering Tattooed Imbecile, but he knows a loser ish-yew when one of his aides explains it to him with cartoons.
Frank
When right-wing Israel falls, I will celebrate with a fine beer. If Saudi Arabia falls simultaneously, it will be time for burnt ends, too.
'Bloodbath', AIDS.
Are you beginning to see why it doesn't even matter who wins in November?
Might as well vote for Biden, then.
As long as you are STUPID enough to believe Hamas figures.
Yes. They probably undercount.
They undercoat their military deaths and attribute most of them to "the children".
That seems unlikely. But why balk at high numbers of slaughtered children when you clearly support the policy of slaughtering children?
Good point - Hamas's incessant use of child soldiers is another reason they cannot be tolerated. They've condemned thousands of children to die for an evil cause. Israel is in a similar position there as we were when Germany used child soldiers in WWII.
'Never again' means killing thousands of children and claiming it's okay, they were soldiers.
They were. How many Jap Children were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Answer: "Enough"
and why the fuck did it take 2 A-bombs for the Yellow Peril to Surrender? if they'd known we didn't have anymore they never would have quit.
I do believe the Japanese had had it with WWII. They were ready to surrender, but didn't want UNCONDITIONAL surrender.
General MacArthur handled it quite well.
US occupation only. No British, no French, and certainly no Joe Stalin.
“Never again” means “never again.”
It means if you try to do it ever again, you, your families, your friends, your supporters, ALL deserve to be killed.
That's what "never again" means.
If you don't like the cost, don't try to do that for which "never agin" was promised"
'It means if you try to do it ever again, you, your families, your friends, your supporters, ALL deserve to be killed.'
Yes, for some people it's become less about preventing another genocide and more about laying the foundations for future massacres, up to genocide.
How many dead Ukrainian kids in your needless proxy war to expand the Empire, Ingsoc?
Dud Ukraine invade Russia? What have we missed?
Wait, no, we attacked them till they surrendered unconditionally.
Yes, and then we all - Israel included - agreed that that should be unlawful going forward.
All? Hamas included? Oh wait, no.
The State of Palestine ratified the Rome Statute, so yes.
Show your work.
No the world didn't. Not even by a long shot.
Do you even know what this new cold war is ACTUALLY about. 🙂
No, we didn't.
When was that going on?
I take it you never read Slaughterhouse Five?
“Containment” has long been a foreign policy strategy when the cost of overthrowing a rogue state would be enormous. North Korea is a vicious totalitarian regime that threatens the safety of all of its neighbors and beyond. But invading it to overthrow it is not a solution that is good for any of those neighbors or the oppressed North Koreans. It would result it far too much suffering. (Millions of people in Seoul are within range of NK artillery, if nothing else.) We saw how well it worked out when we felt that ‘regime change’ in Afghanistan and Iraq was warranted.
The premise that “Hamas must be destroyed in order for Israel to exist” is just that – a premise. It is a premise that is not true, in my opinion. That Hamas wants to destroy Israel is incontrovertible, but it is not true that it is actually capable of doing so. It clearly can inflict a large amount of pain on the people of Israel, what with over a thousand murdered and tortured in one day, but perhaps preventing suffering on that scale does not require destroying Hamas.
If the latter, for context, what’s the maximum cost you would have paid to depose the Nazis?
The Nazis were a threat to millions of people throughout Europe and in many other parts of the world. They murdered over 6 million Jews in addition to however many more enemy soldiers and civilians. The threat they posed was orders of magnitude greater than the threat Hamas poses to Israel. This question is not the one Israel faces.
Can you flesh out the details of how your policy of containment would prevent another 10/7?
I suppose one could fortify the border like the Berlin Wall on steroids to prevent land crossings, but what about the rocket attacks? North Korea talks a lot, but it hasn't actually shelled Seoul since 1953 (1952? 1951?).
"Hamas must be destroyed for Israel to exist" is not a premise, it's a self-evident truth based on the atrocities committed on October 7 and Hamas' documented aims to destroy not just Israel but all Jews. Hamas is an existential threat to Jews everywhere and Israel is fully justified in destroying the organization.
"“Hamas must be destroyed for Israel to exist” is not a premise, it’s a self-evident truth based on the atrocities committed on October 7 and Hamas’ documented aims to destroy not just Israel but all Jews."
Is it self-evident? Correct me if I'm wrong there, Sparky, but Israel seems to continue to be existing despite the 10/7 terrorist attack.
Israel's desire to destroy Hamas is fine. Committing war crimes and seizing territory for themselves is not.
Israel only continues to exist because they don't follow stupid advice.
Appeasing the settlers, the indolent religious assholes, and the right-wing bigots was bad advice. Israel will pay for that dearly. I don't know why they made these decisions, but I support their right to do as they wish.*
It's their funeral, after all.
* Without American support. I hope we cut loose the Saudis simultaneously.
A Pediofile Sex Offender AND an Anti-Semite, who'd a Thunk it?
The dispositive factor is right-wing assholery. I dislike violent conservative bigots regardless of any preferred flavor of silly, childish superstition,,
Carry on, clingers till [insert AIDS' regular sort of threat here]...
Bloodbath, AIDS. Bloodbath.
AIDS, you need to read more widely...
Why do you presume that ALL of this wasn't coordinated in advance with the US military and intelligence agencies, along with much of the Gulf? Do you even have the foggiest idea of what's coming next?
You think America's going to cut off the Saudis/the Gulf and allow that oil and natural gas to go to China? You really understand nothing about America or the world.
Your ideology is dying, AIDS. Perhaps once it does you'll finally be able to see global politics more clearly.
Naziism is less of a danger than radical Islam?? Which has killed more people or invaded more countries??? Israel was Christian until it was invaded by Muslim Arabs, as was Constantinople and Turkey.
If the Palestinians want to have their own state, Hamas, Fatah, and other terrorist groups must be purged first.
Palestinians already have their own state, in Michigan.
"not true that it is actually capable of doing so. "
I guess you want to give them time to beef up their capabilities.
Hamas has inflicted suffering on the Gazans since 2006. What were you saying all that time?
More interesting and important, what were Netanyahu, Likud, and Israel's other right-wing assholes saying . . . and doing . . . with respect to Hamas in recent years?
Israel faces annihilation if Hamas is left in power. That's more than what the world faced if Hitler was left in power.
Hamas and most other terrorist organizations are religious fanatics.
'Israel faces annihilation if Hamas is left in power.'
No, they don't. Oct 7th was their worst attack, and it didn't come anywhere close to annihilating Israel. Israel was perfectly happy to have Hamas in power precisely because they posed a relatively low-level threat that justified extremist policies. But low level threats sometimes get 'lucky.'
So? Sinwar has promised to repeat those attacks again and again. Sure, he overplayed his hand, but why give him another chance?
If Gaza will release all the hostages and lay down their arms, THEN we can talk about cease-fire and the way forward.
'Then we'll talk about not starving thousands of children to death. That'll show them who the good guys are!"
Thousands of Palestinian children are not starving to death, come off it.
Containment has effectively been the policy for 70 years, and it's clearly failed.
The Nazis? The guys in charge of an industrialised nation with a huge mechanised army? Why would the costs of either be in any way related?
Israel is following the law of war, which may be the ultimate oxymoron, btw.
Is it?
Is that a question?
What rule of law do you refer to ?
Apartheid and persecution of Palestinians under Zionist domination are byproducts of the ongoing genocide that started in Dec 1947 and has never ended.. In addition, apartheid and persecution are directed to “deliberately inflicting on the [Palestinian] group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.”[4] The Zionist colonial settlers hoped that Palestinians would be pressured into leaving their stolen homeland. Instead, when Netanyahu started his latest term in Dec 2022, the native Palestinian population under Zionist domination had become larger than the Zionist colonial settler population, and the Palestinian population was much younger than the Zionist colonial settler population is.
The Zionist colonial settlers have become crazed and frantic. Since Dec 2022, the attacks of Zionist colonial settlers on Palestinians, on Palestinian property, and on Palestinian communities have been steeply increasing. Zionist colonial settlers have kidnapped and imprisoned thousands of Palestinians. Zionist colonial settlers have been terrorizing Palestinian children and schools. Zionist colonial settlers have besieged Palestinian religious sites. Zionist colonial settlers have stepped up efforts of Judaization of Jerusalem and of Hebron.
Hamas is a native resistance movement within stolen Palestine and hardly differs from a native resistance movement in Nazi-occupied Europe. Just as the Nazis called the native resistance terrorist, the Zionists and their supporters call Hamas terrorist even though Hamas like the French or Polish resistance to the Nazis is heroic. On Oct 7, 2023, Hamas reacted to the unspeakable barbarism of the Zionist regime and had no other way to force the State of Israel to negotiate except by taking colonial settler prisoners.
The kibbutzim of the Gaza Envelope are military bases
1. that are intended to make irreversible the ongoing genocide, which started in Dec 1947 and
2. that have been been camouflaged with civilians that have the role of human shields.
A native resistance movement like Hamas is fully justified in attacking such military bases. The civilian residents of such military bases are not protected noncombatants.
Hamas broke out of Gaza to seize Zionist colonial settlers so that they could be traded for kidnapped Palestinians and for a cessation of attacks on Palestinian religious sites.[5] The US federal code defines such hostage taking for exchange to be a legitimate non-criminal act during a war that is not of international character. See 18 U.S. Code § 2441 - War crimes. The occupation exists because the state of war has never ended.
When Zionist forces understood the actions of Hamas fighters, the Zionist military perpetrated unspeakably heinous and random slaughter in accord with the Hannibal Directive. Zionist military seems to have caused practically all civilian casualties and deaths during Oct 7. In order to legitimize genocide against Palestinians, the Zionist leadership concocted against Hamas false allegations of mass slaughter, rape, and baby beheading.
The incompetent but depraved, murderous, and genocidal Golani Brigade collapsed.
In response, the Zionist regime has revenged itself on the Palestinian population by destroying Gaza just as Nazi forces destroyed Warsaw. Even though genocide is not a legal or legitimate response to any act, the Zionist regime has achieved the grand slam of crimes of genocide:
• mass murder genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IIa),
• physical and psychological maiming genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IIb),
• hostile conditions genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IIc),
• birth prevention genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IId), and
• child-kidnapping genocide (Gen. Con. Art. IIe, mostly in the West Bank).
And you should see what those awful Jews were doing to Germany before justice started getting restored and the final solution was put in place.
Nobody likes living under occupation or in a combat zone. There have been Jewish vigilantes. But if Israel had had a policy of mass extermination as you repeatedly and baselessly claim, why has the Arab population, both within and outside the ‘48 borders, consistently increased, and at a slower pace than surrounding countries only because developed countries generally have increased population at a slower pace thaan undeveloped ones (and consistent with developed country population increase)? Why is the Arab standard of living, while less than the Jewish standard, greater than in any surrounding country?
Will "Affleck" acknowledge that sharia is apartheid, and that Islam started with imperialist conquests and theft? It was halted in its global ambitions for a global Ummah, but those ambitions have never gone away.
Will "Affleck" have the intellectual honesty and courage to admit that Mohammad (PBUH) was a warmongering illiterate, slaver pedo"? Does he understand that the attempted normalization of Islam in the West will fail now?
The Arabization of Palestine is well documented. Academics well know the names of the tribes that came out of Arabia. They know about the subsequent migrations to Palestine. They know about the Kurdish immigrants (the El-Kurdis). They know about the Ottomans moving Egyptians (including the Al-Masris), Bosnians, Circassians, and others into Palestine. They KNOW that the Islamic rules imposed apartheid upon the dhimmis and infidels the entire time.
Real scholars also know that all of Turkey (and Cyprus) was stolen from the Kurds and Byzantines by colonizing, genocidal imperialist Turks who have never been held accountable.
Now, given the abundant evidence that Hamas did commit those atrocities, against the Israelis on October 7th, one needs to ask again: is "Affleck" Hasbarah? Are you trying to make Palestinians look bad by writing your low quality propaganda here?
Apartheid and persecution of Palestinians under Zionist domination are byproducts of the ongoing genocide that started in Dec 1947 and has never ended.
You are such a lying sack of sh!t.
~20% of Israel is Arab. They vote in election just like everyone else, they are treated just like everyone else.
Keeping the Palestinians out of Israel is no more "apartheid" than the US refusing to let every Mexican move into the US.
And to claim "genocide" against a population that's growing at a rate of 3% a year is to show that you are as stupid as you are dishonest
Which is truly quite the accomplishment
Yada yada yada
Martinned2 babbled stupidly:
“Hamas must be deposed” /= “Hamas must be deposed at all cost”
1: Yes, it does. That's what "must" means.
2: Do you consistently call for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages? No?
Then your position is "Hamas must NEVER be deposed." Because you're a fan of genocidal mass murder.
It would be nice if a law professor cared about the rule of law at least occasionally.
As Hamas is the only side violating the laws of war here, that's just another pathetic non-sequitur to excuse your lust for the murder of Jews.
I am likewise mystified that people never demand that Hamas de-militarize. Whatever the history of Israel and Palestine, even if we grant that Israel has not exactly covered itself in glory in the past, this latest escalation was perpetrated by Hamas. They are the aggressors, not Israel.
At the very least they must lay down their arms and release the hostages. And where the heck is the US in this? Isn’t Hamas holding our own people as hostages?
Absent these obvious steps, the only reasonable stance for Israel is to demand unconditional surrender.
I am infuriated that Biden is going to make a fucking port for Hamas WHILE THEY STILL HAVE AMERICAN HOSTAGES.
When. The. Fuck. Will. Americans. Come. First. To. Him?
You will take any excuse to rage though.
Feel free to defend Biden (almost said "us", but Biden is not my pResident) giving Hamas gits while they hold our citizens hostage.
Johnny Mathis answered that one -
"The Twelfth of Never"
That seems very wrong to me as well.
Biden is going to get Trump re-elected behind this shit.
Since I'm not sure who exactly you mean by the "harder left," it's hard to argue with your characterization that the majority of them are carrying water for Hamas. Perhaps they can defined as people who are now carrying water for Hamas? All somewhat ironic, coming from someone who has done excellent scholarship on vague and ill-defined classifications of people.
Are even Sen Schumer and Biden turning around to oppose Israel?
Is Biden not trying to overthrow Bibi?
The Left is becoming infatuated with a raping group of raging animals.
Um, no.
Again, making your side look retarded is only helping Hamas.
Literally every word written was true.
Fortunately, you do not make your side LOOK retarded.
Yes, they're desperately trying to normalize Islam and Arabization in the West.
That's why obnoxious liberal morons pretend that they're competent to tell the rest ofthe world what the 'true' Islam is, the 'progressive' Islam. It's why they systematically ignore discussion of Bint amm marriages and consanguinity rates in the media. It's why they don't talk about Mohammed being a pedo. It's why they don't talk about dhimmitude and the fact that sharia has never afforded real political or legal equality in any manifestation since the creation of the faith.
It's also why they want to frame Israel-Palestine in terms of colonization and indigenous/settler UNDER their own imperialist terms--this, whilst wholly ignoring the fact that this new global cold war is an intifada AGAINST those very terms. The irony of this is lost on Americans, of course.
You make it sound as if liberals aren't quite used to dealing with the repressive, misogynistic, homophobic sides of religions. I.e. all of them.
Oh please. Do you know how many Christian pedos we've got here in America? And we're trying to do something about it -- everybody else in the world just sort of accepts it as part of going to church.
Catholics don't have equality for women. And these people are undoubtedly Christian:
https://gossiponthis.com/2018/03/23/kentucky-siblings-incest-derrick-lee-clarke-dnea-g-stephens-leitchfield-brother-sister-sex/
Muslims don't have any kind of monopoly on weird religious sex stuff. The Islamic practices you're talking about are what MAGA culture warriors are fighting for, not against.
Randy: the answer is nowhere near as many as in the Islamic world, since that latter world’s paragon was one. This is an empirical claim. A sociological one, for which there’s abundant evidence.
Catholics don’t have political-legal apartheid in Catholic countries, either. They do have a lot of pedos in their Church, though, especially as it has protected them for centuries and given them access to little boys. Do you think that helps or harms your case, libtard?
Ingsoc: you haven’t realised you’re in a cult yourself, yeah? A non-breeding one. You aren’t the future of anything as, demographically and geopolitically, you don’t have one.
Ladies, your rationalisations won’t help you, especially as you’re the cheerleaders for trans, for the gays, for non-breeding, etc, not the MAGA. Choose reason. Choose science. Don’t keep cheerleading for an evolutionarily inferior meme that has alienated the entire globe and half of your own country.
AMERICA can include! America can subsume them! America can succeed where Rome failed! All cultures and religions can work and live in harmony within the American system! Too bad your beliefs (including about your capacity to secularize and subvert Islam in America) are entirely a priori.
You're trying to convince us to be anti-Muslim. Are you also trying to convince us to be anti-Catholic?
If not, then you're simply a bigot. (Which, I mean, we already know, but it's always fun to point out.)
If so, then yes it helps my case. It suggests you're anti-religion. Being anti-religion and hard-right puts you into a lonely fringe of sociopathic nationalists that nobody has cared about since WWII.
The biggest group of sociopathic nationalists are Islamic fundamentalist groups, such as Hamas.
When was the last time Catholic clergy got together and burned alive children and beheaded babies?
Wait till you find out what Catholic clergy were, in fact, actually doing to children and babies.
Cool story, Guy Fawkes. Is that a reason to be more or LESS ‘inclusive’? Isn’t it yet another reason to think your ideology is superficial, hypocritical BS?
You know the Vatican funds migrations of illegals into America, yeah? It needs to replenish the flock after quite a few of the diocese alienated the faithful over the last couple of decades.
Oh really? What HAVE they been doing that compares to tying a 5 year old and a 6 year old together and throwing them into a burning house?
You have evidence? Or do you just like to wring your hands?
What??? When did I come out as pro-Papist??? Where, moreover, are you getting this nonsense logic from (if you reject toleration of A, then you MUST reject toleration of B)? There couldn’t be a host of factors or considerations to take into account, yeah?
See how the reverse holds for you, Randy? You either accept a group or you don’t. You're either accepting or bigoted (and that bigotry is wholly based on ignorance). It couldn’t be, on a balance of considerations, that a given belief system, a given culture, is adjudged to be harmful, inferior, bad, etc.
Further, your lot’s standard bandying about of the words ‘bigotry’ and ‘phobic’ means they are losing their potency (just as ‘terrorism’ has of late). It’s not merely that deeming a given culture to be inferior or incongruent needn’t be predicated upon ignorance all, it’s also the case that it’s now widely understood that spewers of those labels don’t actually believe in the equality of belief systems or cultures either! You’re fake. The point here is NOT to note that you’re hypocritical; it’s that you’re FAKE! You don’t believe these group’s value systems are equal either. You just have an ulterior agenda to use people and subvert their beliefs to make some Brave New World (just like the commies, especially as your lot has no empirical skills or knowledge to do so).
Lonely fringe???? Do you know anything about the world, Randy, or do you just cloak yourself in American ideologies and pretend that you do? How would you describe the Chinese political ethos? East Asian ones more generally? Not religious. Opposed to American multiculting. How about almost all of South America? How about most of Africa?
Your entire ideology is dying, Randy. The right in your country is abandoning it. So too is everyone in Europe. The working class and lower-middle class can see how the Empire aims to throw their children under the bus now. They too are abandoning it. It has nothing to do with some ‘hard-right’. Westerners want a democracy for the people, not ANY people at the existing people’s complete expense and detriment. (It will take a few more years, but the class conflict will finally split the New Left apart too.)
Wake up. Your time is over.
‘Catholics don’t have political-legal apartheid in Catholic countries, either.’
Any more.
‘You aren’t the future of anything as, demographically and geopolitically, you don’t have one.’
Keep the dream alive.
‘Don’t keep cheerleading for an evolutionarily inferior meme that has alienated the entire globe and half of your own country.’
Textbook fascism: these weak and inferior people are also the greatest threat to civilisation! With extra eugenics!
Fascism talks about nations, not memes.
Good for you for showing that you don't understand that, though.
And what good is your posturing, given that you're openly in favour of totalitarian social engineering, Ingsoc? YOU'RE the one who wants to transform the culture and the demography in the name of a greater, global reich.
Who did Prof. Bernstein "win" this argument against? I don't see anyone named or any of their arguments quoted.
It's made up in his head. The ambiguity allows him to tar anyone who thinks Israel's conduct has been unwise and morally questionable with this implied antisemitism (and underlying desire that Israel cease to exist) rather than point to actual extremists who most reject and then have to take seriously those who oppose Netanyahu and his government's policies (including funding Hamas for years from to 10/7) but also think Hamas is evil and would be happy if they surrendered and released the hostages.
It's a bad faith argument. It's below even David Bernstein to make this sort of argument in order to "win."
For the record, I would love for Hamas to surrender and release all the hostages.
I would also love to see Israel with a realistic plan for peace which, seems to me, necessarily a plan that kills more terrorists than it creates and which gains more allies than enemies. Netanyahu and his type read the room and though now they could do anything to Palestinians and the world would back them. They misread the room.
David did too, but not in the way he self-congratulatorily thinks.
You sure seem to know a lot of "these people," David, without being able to name or link to a single one. I know a lot of progressives who want a ceasefire, many of them Jewish, but not a single one of "these people."
I j'accuse you of nutpicking! You found a couple self-described "hard-leftists" on X, and even they didn't actually say that Israel should lose but merely refused to play your reindeer games.
This is one of your lamer, most desperate posts, David, in all your years. Nothing at all evidentiary, just 100% anecdotal paranoia.
Well here's some anecdotal paranoia for you: https://newrepublic.com/article/179430/zionism-lost-argument-american-jews-israel
In what way does your own position differ from the one Prof. Bernstein ascribes to his interlocutors?
My personal position? Not that it's relevant to anything but since you asked...
Israel has been working against peace for at least 50 years, maybe longer. So have the Palestinians, on the whole, but they have less agency in this situation. The ball is in Israel's court.
It would be great if Hamas surrendered and returned the hostages, and they should. Hamas has no redeeming qualities. David seems to forget that. His complaints are like complaining that it's unfair that no one's demanding for mosquitos to unconditionally stop biting people as the solution to malaria. It's just, you know, why would that even cross anyone's mind, let alone be worth talking about?
So the focus is inevitably on Israel. What are their intentions? Do they even have an interest in peace? Or is their end game really one of ethnic cleansing? Their actions -- both now and over the last 50 years e.g. settlements -- make it seem like ethnic cleansing is the long-term solution they have in mind.
Which, you know, I wouldn't even necessarily be against. Fundamentally I'm pro-Israel. If the best solution is to simply conquer Palestine and move the Palestinians out, I'd rather them do it in a quick and safe way than over decades. Stop toying with them and either commit to peace or finish the job.
At this point I'm more pro-Israel than my median Jewish friend or acquaintance. That's because my opinion of Israel and Zionism is more disinterested and of my own mind. It hasn't changed that much since October -- this all seems pretty par for the course to me. But as in the article I linked above, my Jewish friends were seeped in pro-Israel propaganda their whole lives. This situation has given them a reason to turn a skeptical eye towards all of that and reevaluate Zionism for themselves. Not every Jew I know has gone through a crisis of confidence in Israel, but many have, to varying degrees.
Fundamentally I’m pro-Israel. If the best solution is to simply conquer Palestine and move the Palestinians out, I’d rather them do it in a quick and safe way than over decades. Stop toying with them and either commit to peace or finish the job.
This was an interesting comment. What did you have in mind?
You mean if Israel chooses ethnic cleansing? Some sort of resettlement program. A lot of Palestinians end up in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Yemen, Iran maybe, then also lots come to the US I'm sure, and other places willing to participate.
I'm very grateful to Chuck Schumer for saying what should have been obvious: you can hate and fear Hamas and also agree that Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu and stop kow-towing to the odious Haradim, who are well on the way to ruining the country.
Seems ironic that people who were convinced that Russia tried to interfere in our election are actively interfering in an ALLY'S election.
Fuck the lot of them.
Open wider, asshole. Your betters have more progress to shove down your worthless, disaffected, right-wing throat.
The "Reverend" Sandusky, Ladies and Germs, when he tells you to "Open Wider, Asshole", "Run, Faster"
Frank
The "Reverend" Sandusky, Ladies and Germs, when he tells you to "Open Wider, Asshole", "Run, Faster"
Frank
If you think that Israel's prosecution of this war against Hamas would be any different if Netanyahu were replaced, you misunderstand Israel. That doesn't mean it might not be a good idea for other reasons, but there's not going to be a ceasefire any sooner if Netanyahu steps down.
This. I can't stand Bibi but basically any conceivable Israeli PM would be pursuing total war against Hamas right now, especially as long as they continue to hold hostages.
Churchill was thrown out of office right after WW2, Net N' Yahoo's too nice, just wait till Itamar's in charge.
That's a great example of the point though. Yes, the British public was absolutely able to discern Churchill's many shortcomings and throw his party (and him) out of power and put Atlee in.
But Atlee's overall war policy was exactly the same as Churchill's. It's not as though Britain's positions at the Potsdam Conference changed when Atlee arrived. No British PM of any ideology was going to be any different on the settlement of the war.
Yes, the British public was absolutely able to discern Churchill’s many shortcomings and throw his party (and him) out of power and put Atlee in.
Before, six years later, discerning Atlee's many shortcomings and throwing him and his party out and putting Churchill back in 🙂
It is btw true to say that during the war, Atlee's policy was not significantly different from Churchill's. Prior to the war however, Atlee was very much against rearmament (even against Chamberlain's inadequate rearmament) until at least 1937.
"British public was absolutely able to discern Churchill’s many shortcomings"
He was personally very popular, and some people at the time mistakenly thought he could be PM with a Labor majority, after all there had been a coalition during the war. The Tories campaigned on the Beveridge report too, the people just thought Labor could implement it better.
Of course 6 years later he was elected PM again, even though he was quite old. So the people either stopped seeing the "many shortcomings" or they are just things you think about him, not truly shortcomings.
No, Churchill was an evil man who got one big thing right. And TBC, it was a big thing (although his ideas of how to deal with it would have not turned out so well).
The Labor Party had its own problems in the era, of course, so they did bring the Tories back when Churchill was old and could do little.
.any conceivable Israeli PM would be pursuing total war against Hamas right now, especially as long as they continue to hold hostages
In that case, Israel either has a death wish or is inhabited mostly by low-life dumbasses (and I'm not referring just to the Haredi).
The cost of Israel continuing its current course will include loss of America's support. No more military, political, or economic skirts to hide behind. No more big brother hanging around to prevent the natural and deserved consequences of acting like a jerk.
Is there a betting site that accepts action shorting Israel?
Israel is a wealthy country with a ton of tech. They don't need the US at all. They'd be fine without us.
there’s not going to be a ceasefire any sooner if Netanyahu steps down.
I dunno… Netanyahu knows that he’s doomed as soon as the hostages are returned (or killed) and the crisis enters its next, less urgent phase. So he has some personal reasons to avoid a ceasefire that a new PM wouldn’t have.
Odd given that it is Hamas who turns down all of the offers...
I know, it's the fault of evil Jooos that the Jordanians residing in Gaza are a collection of morons.
Oh, I don't think that! I have been wishing for years that Israel would get rid of Netanyahu.
My point is, we don't have to say "Yes, Netanyahu is offensive, but right now Israel needs unconditional support, and Netanyahu is Israel's leader, for better or for worse, so let's all hold our noses and support him!" any more. We can say "Fuck Hamas" without having to lower the volume with which we say "Fuck Netanyahu". We can do this even though (as you say) removing Netanyahu likely won't change the war-policy, at least not in the short-term. And I'm grateful to Senator Schumer for the demonstration.
UPDATE: Also, it's nice to be able to point out that saying, both Hamas and the right-wing Haradim are bad for peace, is not the same as saying that Hamas and the Haradim are somehow equivalent or equally guilty. Hamas is much more guilty than the Haradim. But fuck the Haradim anyway! Just not quite so hard as you fuck Hamas.
My recollection is that Israel voted Netanyahu back into government, with a comfortable majority, less than 18 months ago. Why would Israel be wanting another election now ?
Well, the main reason is because Netanyahu's primary message over the last 15 years or so has been, "I'm the one who understands how to deal with the Palestinians to keep the country safe," and 10/7 pretty well discredited him in that regard.
I have been reliably informed by others that this is tantamount to victim-blaming.
My recollection is that Israel voted Netanyahu back into government, with a comfortable majority, less than 18 months ago.
Likud won 32 seats out of 120 in the Knesset in 2022. Netanyahu's coalition has something like 64 seats. So that is not a "comfortable majority" and polls since Oct 7 have seen large numbers of Israelis calling for him to resign or for new elections as soon as the war is over.
Someone reported this morning that the number of Israeli's who support Netanyahu's continued leadership of government approximates the number of Israelis who believe Elvis is still alive.
But he is, he is!
Perhaps because Netanyahu’s increasingly-obvious reputation for heavy-handed politics favoring the crude-theocratic-right-wing-supremacist branch of Israeli politics is hurting Israel’s standing in the world? Israel should dump this guy while she still has some friends left.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/concern-troll/
You remind me of all the "helpfully-concerned" folks (who'd never vote for any Republican) telling Republicans to "get rid of Trump."
It is kind of weird. But I'm not convinced that this is unique to the Israel-Hamas dynamic. It may be that the majority of the West has simply forgotten how to call for ANYONE to engage in total surrender.
I'm not even certain if anyone ever technically invited Iraq or the Taliban to 'surrender'. We just sort of assumed that they would fall apart for most practical purposes once we finished invading them.
When was the last time any Western Military accepted a formal national surrender from... anyone? Japan in WWII?
All surrenders offered have, of course, been accepted. The problem is the lack of offers, due to American political and military incompetence since 1945. Leftists, who only want to destroy and who build nothing, have had their way. To tragic results.
When was the last time we extended an invitation, or even a strongly implied expectation, that we were looking for the enemy to surrender? WWII was the last time we accepted one, but I don’t think we’ve even EXPECTED that a war would win by the enemy formally surrendering since… early Korea? And that one did NOT end with a surrender, although we might have had hopes at the beginning.
That's my point. We forgot that wars are to make the enemy surrender. Johnson and Nixon could have demanded that N. Vietnam surrender and then invaded the north.
I'm coming at it from the other direction... I'm not worried about American or Western Leadership failing to seek an enemy's surrender. I'm worried about the Western Public as a whole forgetting that surrender is even a thing which sometimes exists.
RE: "I don’t think we’ve even EXPECTED that a war would win by the enemy formally surrendering since… early Korea?"
Isn't that because we haven't formally declared war against anyone since around that time? To expect a formal surrender from someone against whom we're not formally at war, would be silly, wouldn't it?
'It may be that the majority of the West has simply forgotten how to call for ANYONE to engage in total surrender'
I guess it's the long drawn-out brutal insurgencies that seem to follow total victories by superior armies that have made anyone with half a brain skeptical of their effectiveness. There's been a lot of blood under the bridge since 1944.
"Release the hostages and surrender" is like the Popes' ritual calls for peace in a long series of wars. Like asking Trump to withdraw from the presidential race and plead guilty to all counts. A waste of breath. One might as well ask Netanyahu to subjugate his government to Abbas as the rightful ruler of all of Palestine.
Of course Israel should accept unconditional surrender if offered. It will not be offered. Death in a holy war is virtuous. The dead are called martyrs (shahid, şehit, شهيد) in the regional press.
I hope this means that American Jews will stop screaming anti-semitism just because someone remarks on Jewish influence in Hollywood.
Jews have influence in Holly-weird? Adam Sandler should do a song about that.
One silver lining in the Hamas Oct. 7 massacres and its aftermath, is that it has exposed one truth: for the Arab world, and much of the left that purports to sympathize with it, the goal is ending Israel, period, not ending the "occupation" which purportedly began in 1967. The internet is replete with arguments and statements to the effect that Israel has no right to exist and must be destroyed.
Recently, King Hussein of Jordan visited the White House and met with the president. What did His Mjesty say? That the world must end "over 7 decades of occupation." Do the math -- over 7 decades takes you back to 1948. To him, Israel itself is "occupation" he wants to end. And, Jordan is a country that has had a peace treaty with Israel since 1994.
Another "Silver Lining" if you can find a Silver Lining in a Massacre, it got Jews like me to go back to Israel (only for a few weeks, you Homos. Hadn't been there since 2007 (you see one wailing wall, you've seen them all) to help with all the shit that needs doing when you call up 300,000 reservists (that'd be 9 million in the US) JAPS from SUNY giving blood (that unfortunately, like with our 9-11, wasn't needed) EMT's from Long Island EMT-ing, Nurses Nursing,
And Chuck Schumer should remember,
Jewish man don't need him around, anyhow,
Frank
"Jewish man don’t need him around, anyhow, "
LOL Good line.
You may still be laughing when America pulls the plug on Israel, because I sense you don't give a shit about Israel beyond its usefulness as a wingnut talking point.
Israelis won't be laughing, though. They'll be dead or elsewhere.
Me? I'll be glad neither my money nor my government is propping up a bunch of superstition-addled, bigoted, violent, right-wing assholes like the Netanyahu government and its fans.
"Pulls the Plug on Israel"?
trying to remember last time Israel asked for US Troops to pull their Nuts out of the fire, 1940? Nope, that was England/France/Roosh-a,
and you really need to get out more (I understand that your current abode of https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
does restrict you a bit)
Net N' Yahoo's only "Rightwing" if you consider defending your country against Moose-lum Terrorists "Rightwing"
In Amurica politics he'd be to the left of Galvin New-Scum,
Frank
How long will Israel last without America’s military, political, and economic skirts to hide behind? Days? Weeks? Months? A year or two?
Let’s find out!
(Unless Israelis stop electing wingnut governments and start acting like civilized people.j
An interesting application of Lynyrd Skynyrd.
Great and profound ending line. It's a welcome start to the never ending, endless, and infinite struggle over the oldest continual battle ground for a place and of minds.
Struggle is the mind not wanting to surrender, compromise, forgive, or forget. From the mind there's Hope too, if it can work its way forward, onward, upward, and out to find others willing to join ....
For an example of an "at all cost" position, see here:
https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1767220115072786482
This is what the left supports nowadays.
Oh, JFC. That's obviously not real. (I don't mean it's photoshopped; I mean it was not done by Palestinian supporters. Just like the other one publicized at about the same time: "Rape is resistance.")
Really, what's your proof of that? Sounds like wishful thinking.
And it certainly is Hamas' position. Why wouldn't some of its fellow travelers echo that position?
David, that is an accurate reflection of what Hamas supporters believe: any means necessary. Are you saying the progressive Left isn't saying that? Really? C'mon.
'Are you saying the progressive Left isn’t saying that?'
In the sense that people like you say things like that, put them in quotes and atrribute them to the progressive left, while you yourself are quite happy to support the ongoing mass killing of babies.
I never thought I would live long enough to see the acceptance of blatant Anti-Semitism as a 'respectable' poltical position.
Yet, here we are.
Well said Mr Bernstein!
Best hope for Gaza's future? Israeli Settlements
Best hope for Israel's future? Ceasing settlement activity immediately and turning away from right-wing belligerence. Otherwise, Israel likely will not have much of a future.
Ever been there? Of course not, at least since you've been (Safely) Ensconced at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
Haven't been any massacres of Israelis by Israelis flying in from Gaza.
Frank
Not all Palestinians are in Gaza. It is my theory that the true purpose of the October 7 attacks was to provoke retaliation by Israel. (What else could be expected after October 7?)
Hamas has up to 2.5 million Palestinians in Gaza who could become sacrificial martyrs. The real goal is to turn world opinion against Israel because of Israel's overreaction and sympathy for the dead martyrs.
It's working! Israel is playing right into their hand and working to help Hamas realize their ambitions.
Why is that theory not discussed in the media?
Because it's stupid as fuck. But you're right, there's too many Palestinians elsewhere, they're in fucking San Antonio, San Antonio? You'd think they'd go somewhere with a less well-armed populace like San Fran Sissy-Co or Martha's Vineyard.
Frank
I don't know what media you're reading, but the media I read explained that that was the only plausible motive for Hamas's attack as early as October. The entire Arab world was busy throwing the Palestinians under the bus in return for closer relationships with Israel, and this war has set back Arab/Israeli relations by at least a decade.
Martin,
I agree. Disrupting better ties between Israel and Arab countries was a strong motive for the Oct 7 pogrom.
'My response was consistent: debates over specific Israeli policies were a sideshow.'
Since some of those policies was supporting Hamas, sidelining the Palestinians and maintining the status quo of low-level conflict while allowing settlers along the West Bank, you were proved quite categorically wrong, I'd say.
'Israel losing is more important than ending civilian suffering in Gaza'
Or, to flip it over and reflect what is actually happening right now, Israel winning is more important than ending civilian suffering in Gaza.
'Hamas's rule in Gaza is essentially every Progressive's worst nightmare.'
Everything about Gaza is a nightmare, the idea that if they don't reflect progressive ideals it should be okay to kills tens of thousands of them is staggeringly gortesquely inane.
'in calling for Israel to essentially surrender'
'If I change the words to something else it sounds so bad.'
'"would you prefer the war go on, or that Hamas release the hostages and surrender," basically no one is willing to say publicly that he or she would prefer Hamas to surrender.'
Preditction: not one single person asked this question has been unwilling to say they would prefer Hamas to surrender.
'If you are a progressive and you find yourself carrying water for a truly reactionary, genocidal organization like Hamas, maybe it's time to do some soul-searching.'
I'd say the same thing about apologists for the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocents, especially when carried out by an obvious shit like Netanyahu.
"Preditction: not one single person asked this question has been unwilling to say they would prefer Hamas to surrender."
Prediction: You are incorrect.
Thoroughly so.
Ok. First of all we have to find someone who has actually been asked that particular question. Any examples?
David, you are a silly and deeply unserious man, and no friend of Israel. This post is almost a total waste of time, with every paragraph twisted up with logical fallacies and bad-faith assertions that must be disentangled before any constructive response can be offered.
Here is what distinguishes the vile polemicists from the thoughtful experts on geopolitics and international conflict:
Israel does not need to destroy or depose Hamas. They may be within their rights to do so, and may be justified in a lawful military campaign to achieve that outcome. But Israel's continued existence and security requires only that Hamas cease attacks against Israel.
It is true that there is some ground for skepticism that Hamas would abide by a long-term commitment to cease attacks against Israel, and this skepticism underlies the sense that the only option is to destroy it or secure its surrender. But if we have to choose from two objectives - one, the complete destruction of Hamas and any other militant organization with the ability to attack Israel, and two, the taming of Hamas to the point that they will abide by the terms of a ceasefire or truce and take steps to limit other groups, like IJ, from engaging in their own attacks - clearly the second one is more within reach, and can be achieved with less death, fewer attacks, less isolation of Israel on the world stage.
Anyone who truly wants Israel to continue to exist and thrive as a vibrant democracy should be able to see how a ceasefire serves their interests. Rejecting even confidence-building, short-term ceasefires as tantamount to surrender by Israel just means committing Israel to its current course - derailing the Abraham Accord process, isolating Israel from its western allies, increasing fascism within its own borders, and killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians.
You're no friend of Israel, David. You're a warmonger, a polemicist, and too addicted to Twitter.
You can’t “tame” Hamas, that’s wishful thinking. To this day, Hamas has rejected any ceasefire that requires them to disarm. They are a death cult. They want their own people, even their own children, to die fighting. That’s why they stockpile weapons in nurseries, schools, and hospitals.
Be realistic. These people must be disarmed forcibly.
Another deeply silly and unserious person. Yawn.
There's nothing unserious about cacheing rocket parts and ammunition in a child's nursery room and keeping hostages.
Stop acting like you don't think any of this matters. We know you know.
They want their own people, even their own children, to die fighting. That’s why they stockpile weapons in nurseries, schools, and hospitals.
Wrong. Sort of obviously wrong.
You need to take a page from Sun Tzu and try to know your enemy better. And yourself, while you're at it.
Simon's right. You're silly and unserious.
Dave, you're taking Israeli propaganda, half-digesting it, and then regurgitating it. This slop you're throwing at me is only loosely connected to anything factual or documented. And the whole point of employing these half-remembered talking points is to shift the debate from "is a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel achievable?" to "is Dave even accurately recounting the facts on which we have to base our opinions?"
It's the same goddamn shit you and all Bannon's goons in the MAGA camp employ - constantly, every day, in a state of high dudgeon, resulting in a polarization of a debate and disintegration of reasonable discourse. And it's all so cynically in bad faith, too.
So go fuck yourself.
Yup, it's the Right alone that makes debate impossible.
Yup.
Yup.
Typical MAGA reply when their tactics are called out for what they are.
Would you propose Israel to about accomplish that? It doesn’t seem remotely achievable to me, much less easier than destroying Hamas root and branch.
This is a strange assertion to make, when we've already seen one humanitarian pause, and a temporary ceasefire has been under negotiation for a while now.
Unfortunately, neither Hamas nor Israel really seems willing to drop their non-starting demands. But it shows that they can talk, and there is a framework for negotiating a ceasefire. These things are never easy. But, again - "destroying Hamas root and branch" - that is a fantasy, and Israel's military understands this.
It is honestly so tiresome to engage in these discussions with people who engage in unreflective, juvenile jingoism. Hamas is just one militant organization, with its leadership both within Gaza and outside of it, that has some degree of Iranian support. "Destroy them root and branch"? How? And then what? Are you proposing to flatten all of Gaza, in order to destroy the tunnel network? Are you proposing to detain every military-age Gazan man, on the presumption that if they are not Hamas militants, they could soon be, or later join up with separate organization that fills the vacuum left by Hamas? Are you proposing that Israel launch some of its nuclear weapons at Iran, to stop it once and for all from funding and training its regional proxies?
It's insane bloodlust. "Destroy Hamas root and branch." See if you can do it without completing the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and trigger a regional war. Fucking morons.
This is just a strawman argument. To destroy Hamas means to completely remove their capacity to inflict war. It means to find all their weapons, all their military infrastructure, all their supply depots and either remove or disable them.
Yes, this is absolutely doable. And no, it is not "jingoistic" to insist on the unconditional surrender of Hamas.
How do you know when you've found them "all?" This is a recipe for endless war.
This is just a strawman argument.
Is it? You go on to describe exactly what I did, as the military goal.
Maybe you missed the part where I asked: "See if you can do it without completing the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and trigger a regional war."
Fucking moron.
We did see one humanitarian pause. Hamas forces broke it almost immediately, but Israel let it continue.
Then Hamas took credit for gunmen attacking random civilians at a bus stop. During the truce. Hamas could have disclaimed responsibility and said they were acting alone, without orders.
There can be no containment, no negotiated peace, they must be eliminated, and if the closest Israel can get means destroying most of Gaza, so be it. Whatever arises next from the anarchy or vacuum comes afterwards will be less able to attack Israel, at the very least.
And there will be no regional war, don't be obtuse. No one has any appetite for it.
>But if we have to choose from two objectives – one, the complete destruction of Hamas and any other militant organization with the ability to attack Israel, and two, the taming of Hamas to the point that they will abide by the terms of a ceasefire or truce and take steps to limit other groups, like IJ, from engaging in their own attacks – clearly the second one is more within reach
I read a lot of completely delusional horseshit from unserious leftist cunts possessed of hilariously unearned self-regard. But this shit right hear takes the cake. Really? The second one is more within reach?
Show your fucking work, you absolute drooling moron.
If you are a conservative and you expect mainstream Americans (who dislike right-wing belligerence at home, especially when steeped in old-timey superstition) to support lethal, immoral, bigoted right-wing belligerence anywhere else, especially at enormous and varied cost (including complicity in the depraved humanitarian disaster Netanyahu is arranging in Gaza), it might be time to advise your friends in Israel to get out of Israel while they still can.
Noting good ever comes from bigotry.
After post-World War II, little blue boxes (pushke) were used to collect change to help Ashkenazim wishing to migrate ("foot vote"?) from their native homes -- and most Americans were delighted to contribute: most Americans did not want Europe's trash to wind up on American soil. The little blue boxes helped Ashkenazim buy the weapons necessary to implement the horrors of the Nakba -- and most Americans turned a blind eye to the multitude of crimes committed by the Ashkenazim: most Americans did not want Europe's trash to wind up on American soil. And so America and Fiji still call Israel an ally -- and most Americans continue to tacitly approve of Israeli wrongdoing: if Israel becomes an Arab state, many Israelis will wish to flee... and most Americans do not want Europe's trash to wind up on American soil.
This is the original "YIYBY" (yes in YOUR backyard) behavior so favored by those who profess "YIMBY" (yes in MY backyard). In the original as well as the present instances, the underlying issue is sidestepped: most Americans do not want trash (be it Ashkenazim or South American drug dealers) in their backyards.
"Gaza is experiencing a humanitarian catastrophe — entire families wiped out, whole neighborhoods reduced to rubble, mass displacement, children suffering. We should not let the complexities of this conflict stop us from stating the plain truth: Palestinian civilians do not deserve to suffer for the sins of Hamas, and Israel has a moral obligation to do better. The United States has an obligation to do better." [Sen. C. Schumer]
"Europe's trash"
Does that include Einstein? H. H. Rabi? Isaac Stern? Chaim Weizmann? How about Gabor Somorjai?
It seems that you like to forget about the exodus of more than 800,000 middle eastern and north african Jews who were "displaced" from Arab countries circa 1948.
I would like Prof. Bernstein to “show his work” with the positions he attributes to unnamed people. Who said what and in what context?
He could well be right about some of the cease-fire people; I’d just like to see some examples before I join in the indignation.
My own view:
-Israel is better than Hamas.
-Unlike Israel, Hamas as an entity would do the world a favor by disarming and surrrendering.
-Since Hamas doesn’t do that, a war with their regime still has to conform to the law of nations and relevant treaties, which are designed to protect innocent civilians and POWs.
-*If* a war with Hamas can’t be done legally under the above principle, then yes, a cease-fire would be the way to go, kind of like we have a cease-fire in Korea without endorsing North Korea.
-It would be nice to see this legal blog outline the specifics of treaties and the law of nations governing Israel’s behavior, plus such facts as can be discerned through the fog of war about how Israel is or isn’t living up to these responsibilities.
-Israel should stop doing bad things in general, just for the sake of not doing bad things, not out of some unrealistic hope that her most intransigent enemies would reward her for behaving better. Seriously, as far as West Bank settlements, influence of the haredi, etc., doing the right thing is simply…doing the right thing. Virtue is its own reward. Just don’t tell them they’re going to get peace or security if they do these good things – all they’ll gain will be the solace of a clear conscience.
-Maybe America should reduce her footprint in the Middle East. As we turn to clean energy we'll have less need to go over there to fight over oil, right?
Also, were American hostages taken? If so, shouldn’t the U. S. declare war? The objective this time would not be to democratize or Americanize the area or whatever, but to get our hostages back and arrest the perps.
Maybe *as a condition of peace,* once we’ve gotten the hostages back and obtained additional security for the future, we could agree not to arrest the perps, but this would be a concession in exchange for major reciprocal concessions.
As a Great Power committed to humanitarianism, we could show how a proper humanitarian war against Hamas should be conducted.
"we could show how a proper humanitarian war against Hamas should be conducted."
Could you flesh out some specifics of what you would do differently in Gaza, were you in command of that war?
That was, to a great extent, sarcasm.
Ideally, the best outcome would be to threaten war…only to have Hama discover, to its surprise, that some of their hostages are American – and will be released with apologies for the misunderstanding.
I'd still be open to indictments of those who kidnapped Americans.
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/how-the-fbi-responds-to-international-kidnappings-050119
"That was, to a great extent, sarcasm"
Sorry, my bad!
I tried to mix sarcasm with seriousness in a way which (a) doesn’t work on the Internet, or, alternatively, (b) doesn’t work when I do it.
But in all seriousness, if a country (or quasi-country) kidnaps your citizens, declaring war should certainly be an option.
A fair number of those on the left recognize that Hamas is evil, and they are willing to confront others on the left who refuse to recognize this fact. Just as a fair number of conservatives recognize that Trump is evil, and are willing to confront others on the right.
But asking "Why not call for Hamas for surrender?" is like asking "Why not call for Trump to drop out?" Neither will ever happen.
So instead the debates revolve around the effectiveness of campaigns against Hamas - as well as those against Trump.
MOrality and reason call for the extermination of Hamas as it says they will NEVER give up trying to exterminate Israel. Why does our President LIE about this???
Sending aid in is prolonging the agony. In what sense is it humanitarian
This line of arguments ignore the real erstwhile possibility for a two state solution. For a long time the Hamas charter said they were willing to recognize Israel’s right to exist within the 1967 borders. I don’t think Hamas are good people {quite frankly I don’t think Benjamin Netanyahu is any better than Hamas) but when lives are being lost Every day on both sides, I don’t see why personal opinions of the policies and values espoused by the leaders of either country should be a barrier to considering reasonable solutions.
And a recognition of the state of Israel under their initial borders that were recognized by all Members countries of the UN, while simply not recognizing those disputed lands taken by Israel in a war of aggression seems like an eminently reasonable compromise.
Had Israel accepted that compromise it wouldn’t matter whether Israel likes what Hamas stands for. That’s only an issue as long as Israel claims dominion over Palestinians. This already mapped out two state solution allowed Israel to be Israel and Palestine to be Palestine. It doesn’t matter if you agree with the way Hamas might run their own country. It would be there's to run.
At no point did the Hamas charter ever say any such thing.
You are correct. But the question is how to handle that situation. Attempted eradication that ruins the lives of thousands of innocent women and children does not work; it creates more terrorists than it kills. Genocide is not an acceptable solution, nor is ethnic cleansing.
The fact that the Hamas leadership doesn't recognize Israel's right to exist doesn't mean that all Palestinians feel the same way. If people of good will on both sides had created a viable Palestinian state, eventually the old irreconcilables would have died out and would not have been replaced by new ones. Much of the IRA did not accept the Good Friday Agreement with Great Britain, but those people were never killed off; rather, they eventually became irrelevant. But Israel's current war of destruction has probably made such a solution impossible for another generation.
Hamas has repeatedly stated, post Simchat Torah pogrom, that they would repeat it over and over and over until Israel is no more.
This is no world where Hamas and Israel can co-exist, side-by-side.
That wasn't what Israel thought when they were supporting Hamas.
I think it’s particularly redicilous the way Americans seem to pretend that Hamas is some sort of small terrorist group rather than the actual government of Gaza with a full-blown military, as if Israel could somehow respond to Hamas’ attack on Israel and its hostage-taking without waging war on Gaza.
I agree 100% with Bernstein.
If you are a progressive and you find yourself carrying water for a truly reactionary, genocidal organization like Hamas, maybe it's time to do some soul-searching.
You're so funny.
Progressives don't have souls. If they did, they wouldn't be fans of Hamas in the first place
Your lack of a response is noted.
Nowhere in this post does Prof. Bernstein accuse his opponents of antisemitism.
Interesting that that’s the first place your mind went though…
What Nas said. QA's post is completely non-responsive, and makes no effort to address Bernstein's point.
'Interesting that that’s the first place your mind went though…'
We've been trained by you guys to expect any criticism of Israel as justifying accusations of anti-semitism, so it's not that interesting.
Please point to which of Prof. Bernstein's points your comment is responsive to.
Is that supposed to be evidence of anti-semitism? Looks more like something else.
Queeny till resents her Mammy left her Baby/Daddy after her Jewish Accountant made her see J-Hovah
Saying that it would be a good outcome if Hamas would surrender is extreme?
Hamas should surrender or fade. That would be a good outcome.
Israel should sideline its bigoted, superstition-addled right-wing assholes, who currently run its government. Israel should stop stealing land, stop occupying land, and stop basing government treatment of people on religion. That would be a good outcome, ,even if it were imposed on Israel from without.
I expect all of those outcomes to develop over time (not reaching the long term), one way or the other.
You know what they say about a hit dog…
They say you should call the SPCA.