The Volokh Conspiracy
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A Short Response to Roger Parloff and Others
The Ineligibility or Sinecure Clause (Article I, Section 6, Clause 2) states:
No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time . . . . (emphasis added).
Here and elsewhere, the Constitution of 1788 distinguishes "appoint" from "elect." Whether or not contemporaneous popular usage did that too is an entirely different question—just as legal usage sometimes differs from popular usage.
For a different point of view, see Roger Parloff, 'What Justice Scalia Thought About Whether Presidents Are "Officers of the United States",' Lawfare (Jan. 24, 2024, 9:01 AM), <https://lawfaremedia.org/article/what-justice-scalia-thought-about-whether-presidents-are-officers-of-the-united-states>. If Parloff and others are correct, if appoint and elect are basically synonyms across constitutional provisions, then a strategic Congress could raise the President's (or Vice President's) salary, and if Congress did so, then a Senator with 2 or 4 years remaining on his/her term would be barred from being elected/appointed to the presidency and vice presidency. In other words, an incumbent President seeking re-election, working in tandem with a cooperative Congress, could bar all senators (with 2 or 4 years remaining on their term) from the minority party, by raising the President's salary $1! And they say the Blackman/Tillman position has odd, unexpected, undesirable consequences? Moreover, this point is not new. It has been in the literature since circa 2009. See Seth Barrett Tillman, Why Our Next President May Keep His or Her Senate Seat: A Conjecture on the Constitution's Incompatibility Clause, 4 Duke J. Const. L. & Pub. Pol'y 107, 134–36 (2009).
Parloff might try to argue that the Sinecure Clause does not apply to the presidency, because the presidency is not a "Civil Office under Authority of the United States." That would be odd. As we understand it, Parloff's position is that the President is an "Officer of the United States" and the presidency is an "Office under the United States." Why wouldn't the presidency also be a "Civil Office under Authority of the United States"? And we have addressed at length why the President is not a military official. It would seem to follow that under Parloff's position, the presidency would be considered an appointed position under the Sinecure Clause. As a result, all of these negative consequences inhere to his position.
In a recent Volokh Conspiracy post, we wrote:
We have little doubt there will be more rushed and flawed entries in the debate. Critics with little or no expertise in the field will find something, anything, to prove that we are wrong. No doubt these critics will be unfamiliar with our full body of scholarship, which well exceeds a thousand pages. Critics will attack positions we never took, and ignore the positions we have actually taken. Critics will be unfamiliar with the proper context of sources from the 18th and 19th centuries. And critics will approach their conclusion with absolute certitude that they are right and Tillman/Blackman are wrong. Trust us, we've seen it all before. We could make a list of people who have said we were wrong, and then later had to retract or more. The list keeps growing.
Over the next two months or so, the United States Supreme Court is likely to provide some resolution to one or more of these contentious issues. And, we expect that more than a few will try to leave a mark on this debate in the near term and prior to judicial resolution. They will post new "research" at the last minute knowing full well that those who are in a position to confirm the accuracy of newly reported "research" will have little or no time to do so before the Supreme Court decides this case. And, for a few, that is not a bug, it is the chief feature.
If and how we respond will be a function of what time and other constraints we face in this final, pivotal period. Our candid message to you—the reader—is to approach such new, late-breaking entries in the debate with some caution.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
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Wait for it.
If you know what this is supposed to prove, feel free to explain it to the rest of us. Because as far as I can see there is no reason to go from "some officers of the United States are appointed" to "elected officials are by definition not officers of the United States". That's a complete non sequitur.
My comment was not a position on the OP but rather the arguing that would follow, as John F. Carr comments below.
What would you know? Have you spent the better part of the last 5 years studying this exact issue like Josh???? Beware of people trying to opine on the meaning of simple words ...
I think we can file that one under, "argument from authority".
.
It seems unlikely Prof. Blackman has spent the better part of five years studying this exact issue.
People tend to ascribe expertise to law professors on a general rather than specific basis. (I experienced this as a sports writer, not only when I was assigned to cover an NHL game a couple of hours before the game started -- it was the second hockey game I had attended, and the first since junior high school -- but more often when people would approach me in a bar and ask me to settle a bet or an argument concerning a team, sport, or player I had never covered, figuring that my ruling must be just and accurate because I was a professional sports writer.)
Some law professors do a bit of research on a subject -- likely similar to the volume of work a practicing lawyer would devote to an issue in a case or a transaction -- and, instead of writing a brief or advancing a position at oral argument, publish their opinions for general consumption. Some audiences figure those law professors' opinions must be worthwhile or even authoritative because they are professors' opinions, without considering whether the law professor is speaking as a generalist or as a specialist. This is dangerous in a context in which legal opinions tend to be offered without much criticism, especially when others who could offer criticism are ideologically aligned (for example, at an insurance defense firm, a public advocacy group, or a polemically partisan blog).
Most of the Volokh Conspirators offer opinions on a full platter of subjects. They also teach a variety of subjects, not always closely related to the opinions and assertions they publish at this blog.
Ever drive past a one- or two-person law office whose sign indicates 10 or 12 areas of practice? Everything from criminal defense and corporate law to estates and real estate, likely with a few others -- admiralty and divorce, or personal injury and tax, or employment law and medical malpractice -- rounding out the roster. Many people see that sign and figure 'wow, those guys are good -- just look at all the things they are good at.' But that's not a firm with 10 areas of expertise or strong proficiency; it's a firm with none.
Wow, an actually-non-trolly comment from Kirkland. Not sure why he can't apply this understanding when he's whining that a particular news item hasn't been covered here to the extent he wants it covered.
I remember, probably twenty years ago now, my firm received a postcard from some random lawyer we didn't know announcing that she was setting out on her own and opening her own firm. (Nothing wrong with that, though postcards now seem pretty quaint!) And she proceeded to list her areas of practice on the back. The list was in normal size font, and covered the back of the postcard, so there must've been 25 or more items on the list. Among pretty bog standard stuff like the ones you describe — real estate and employment law and commercial litigation and such — was "equestrian law." Now, I suppose it's possible that this was a personal interest of hers that she had dove deeply into previously in her career, but this just struck us as remarkably silly even given the fact that she was already claiming so many areas of practice. It's now our go-to joke when we encounter a lawyer who obviously is out of his/her depth in a given case. (Or when some non-lawyer tries to sell marketing services — often SEO — to our firm without understanding the industry at all.)
I wish we could just flip a coin rather than endure all this arguing about angels and pinheads. Heads, Trump is appointed President with a mandate to destroy all who opposed him. Tails, Trump is cast into the deepest dungeon or deported to a shack in a shithole country.
No actual election in your wish? If the electorate is perfectly evenly divided, then the election would be equivalent to a coin flip, but even then we would gain some approximate information as to the division of the electorate. (And neither outcome would be possible, as a closely divided electorate would not give a mandate for anything, nor imprison the losing candidate.)
Republicans are losing interest in democracy as they come to recognize that their stale, ugly thinking is increasingly unpopular in modern America.
That conservatives ever expected old-timey superstition, vestigial bigotry, and backwardness to regain popularity at the modern American marketplace of ideas seems inexplicable.
That conservatives ever expected old-timey superstition, vestigial bigotry, and backwardness to regain popularity at the modern American marketplace of ideas seems inexplicable.
Why? It worked for them for decades. The Christian right steadily won more power from the late 60s/early 70s until 10-15 years ago. Even Democrats had to kiss the ring and sit in church to be elected. Do you remember how much trouble Obama got into for going to the wrong church?
They're dying out. It's actually pretty interesting and it was totally foreseeable that as their democratic power slipped away they'd look for other, more corrupt ways to stay in power.
Was Biden's possession of classified documents illegal?
Asking for a friend.
Not pursuant to any of the statutes that are forming the basis of the criminal case against Trump in Florida.
Yep, good idea to shift the focus on the Florida case.
He Washington case is on hold, with no motions allowed, on appeal for months, if not years, while the Atlanta case is in chaos, likely to lead to a whole new prosecutorial team.
I was not "shifting" attention to anything. Bubbles was asking about classified documents. I referred him to the relevant comparison.
Keep wishcasting on the rest of it. Don't you have an amicus brief to be working on?
Turns out Ted Cruz made the Section 5 Argument much better than I did in his brief.
I hate it when that happens.
Why let that stop you? I'm sure the Court doesn't get the opportunity to laugh at amicus briefs submitted by lunatics, written in crayon, very often.
You have friends?
No, but assume for sake of argument that it was. What the hell does that have to do with the subject of this thread?
Oh wait. You're one of the ones that thinks "but what about (insert name of some Democrat or other)" exonerates Trump.
Just finished reading a very interesting book, The Great Dechurching by Jim Davis. It's written by an evangelical and it's about how and why church numbers are steeply declining and what's to be done about it. And the evangelical church's embrace of Trumpism is high on the list of reasons for it, although it had started before.
I thought Robert Putnam nailed declining church participation a long time ago (see Bowling Alone).
"Do you remember how much trouble Obama got into for going to the wrong church?"
Sure, but that wasn't a theological thing, as such. It just about his pastor being a vicious radical, and Obama being comfortable with that until it became public.
Brett, *everything* is theological as such. If you believe that the Gospel includes wealth redistribution (and there are Christians who do), and you therefore support single payer health care and higher taxes on the rich because you think that's what Jesus wants, then it's theological *as such*. Which was the case with Obama's former pastor.
And it's really no different from conservative Christians who oppose abortion, gay marriage, and government social programs because they think *that's* what Jesus wants. Just that the shoe is on the other foot.
'a vicious radical'
Compared to the shit spouted by evangelicals? Feck off.
" No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme."
Rev. Wright.
Point to an evangelical who said something similar.
Most evangelicals lie, so none of them said anything similar to this. It's odd that you still think this is somehow bad and radical after voting for a guy whose entire campaign was built around the assertion that America sucks. But you could always go see what they say about gay people. That's always good for a sick hollow laugh.
The obvious rejoinder is Westboro Baptist Church.
And Rev. Wright's comments sound a lot like many comments various Old Testament prophets made about Israel. The Bible does in fact curse countries that practice injustice.
https://youtu.be/ZNwMPNxwHmQ
Mike Huckabee: "We should cut some slack to the people who grew up being called names."
I assume he was talking about the unborn? Maybe the guy has a point.
"Gaining power" was more a matter of just becoming political. It's like witch burning going up as the Catholic Church declined.
I doubt it has worked for them.
America's racists have been on the defensive for more than a half-century and have lost plenty of ground. They went from having the upper hand to being largely unable to express their racist thinking openly.
America's conservative gay-bashers have been routed. They went from dominance to being cowering bitches, desperately trying to carve out a few safe spaces for a portion of their bigotry.
America's misogynists have gotten their asses kicked for many decades. Most of what white, male misogynists have left is whining on the internet at sites that cater to incels and all-talk tough guys.
America has progressed with respect to consumer protections; unearned (white, male) privilege; abusive policing; environmental protections; voting rights; civil rights; health care; reproductive freedom; and more against the wishes and efforts of conservatives for so long as most people reading this have been alive.
The continuing trajectory of that progress seems predictable because the American culture war is not over but has been settled. America becomes less rural, less religious, less bigoted, less backward, and more diverse (less white) every day.
Conservatives have been able to delay progress in many respects (largely because of a remarkable run of good fortune with respect to the Supreme Court) but they may pay for that mistake when they seek magnanimity from the culture war's victors. Gun nuts, anti-abortion absolutions, Israel's right-wing jackasses, religious zealots, and others who aligned with the wrong side of history (conservatives) and the losing end of the culture war (Republicans) seem destined to pay dearly for their short-sighted approach.
Conservatives will continue to lord over some desolate rural and southern stretches for a while but at the national level they not only have lost but also are likely to pay a substantial price for the manner in which they have conducted themselves.
The liberal-libertarian mainstream operates our strongest research and teaching institutions; inhabits and controls our educated, successful, economically vibrant communities; provides most of the better entertainments (movies, televisions, music, comedy, etc.); and conducts our strongest newsgathering operations.
Conservatives are dying off and conservatism is dying. That constitutes defeat, not success.
Unfortunately, only a few on this site will acknowledge the truth of what you wrote. And those who disagree with you will not have the courage or the intellectual integrity to debate rationally with you. If they respond at all it will be with their usual thoughtless, incomprehensible, ad hominem attacks.
Are you suggesting the Rev. said something which could be characterized as rational debate? That is so not his style, I almost unmuted him to find out.
Almost.
Better Americans don't need the culture war's losers to acknowledge anything. All they need from our vestigial bigots and stale conservatives is compliance, and only until the clingers die off.
as oppose to democrats actually practice fascism.
Magister -- this stuff has nothing to do with if the people want him elected or not -- either way.
And do you not recognize sarcasm?
Personally, I'd like to end all this bullshyte and just get to the election. If you don't want to vote for Trump because he bites the heads off kittens (which he hasn't been accused of -- yet) then don't vote for him.... That's how the system is supposed to work.
The concern was that Confederate states would vote for Confederate Senators -- Massachusetts sure as hell wasn't going to, and that's why this was never intended to apply to national offices.
[Citation needed.]
Trump supporters are generally hostile to fair elections, and Dr. Ed 2 as much as anyone; the same eagerness to stop while Trump has an advantage, as he attempted when claiming victory before all the votes were counted in 2020, and to use threats of violence to alter the outcome.
The process has and will proceed through a whole bunch of votes: would Republican senators vote to convict Trump in his second impeachment? will the Supreme Court vote for absolute immunity for Trump? will enough jurors vote to let Trump get away with his crimes? will a Republican candidate with enough backbone to criticize Trump get anywhere in the Republican primaries? Each outcome will influence the result of the general election.
If there was no concern about national elections, why extend disqualification to presidential electors?
Terrified he'd turn the investigative power of government against his opponents?
1. You should be. There's a reason a good chunk of constitutional design is to hamper this as much as possible. Kings did all this stuff all the time.
2. You should recognize this in the other side's behavior the past 7 years. One initiative after the other using government investigations to hurt an opponent. I haven't heard a crie de coeur this sincere since I forget who won, but the bleat was what if Bush W. starts to do to us what we were doing to him? Oh!
You all suck. Step away from the Constitution, facetious-meisters!
And my usual disclaimer: Trump needs to lose because we don't need him cheering and waving a checkered flag for Putin's tanks somewhere west of Poland.
I don't know if you're mentally ill but assuming you aren't, step away from whoever you get your biased news from. Trump's getting charged and investigated for his behavior because his behavior was illegal.
Trump’s getting charged and investigated for his behavior because Democrats are doing the investigating and charging.
Since when is Jack Smith a Democrat?
He's just the hired gun. Garland is a Democrat, no?
Everyone I Don't Like Is A Democrat, by Bob.
Garland is not a Democrat?
I don't know what party Smith belongs to. His work history has Democratic appointments in 1999, 2010, 2015 and 2022 and a stint at the ICC. Not very GOPish but whatever.
Some, Coincidentally, Actually Are Democrats, A Sequel, by Bob.
How does anyone claim to know whether Merrick Garland is a Democrat? (I don't know.) He has never held a partisan political office, and I don't know that he has ever disclosed a party affiliation. Wikipedia identifies him as an Independent.
fine. point taken. he is a ruling class nazi.
I don't think Trump would concede Poland. You know, dealmaker that he is, he'd probably sit down with Putin and agree that, as long as Putin just takes Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania - you know, those Baltics he's probably never thought about or heard of - and then a good chunk of Finland, Trump won't saber-rattle or anything. And Putin will say, sounds good to me, I wasn't planning on pushing past Kaliningrad or Moldova right away anyway, and you'll be dead before I'm ready to bother Poland.
Funny how Russia took Crimea during Obama's presidency, did nothing during Trump's presidency and launched a full invasion of Ukraine soon after Biden became president. Just sayin'.
Kissing dictator tuches makes you look good domestically in the short term, but makes you look weak internationally. Si vis pacem, para bellum.
So Biden's continuation of Obama's ass kissing of Iran is working out well?
There wasn't much to continue after four years of Trump throwing everyone's toys out of the pram.
WTF are you talking about. The ass kissing is still ongoing as Iran directs its proxies to attack US and Western interests where ever possible.
We've gone from 'no more forever wars' to 'why the fuck aren't we at war with Iran?'
THis is BS.
WTF do you think Trump would have done if Putin had invaded Ukraine while he was President? Nothing, except may be talk about how "strong" Putin was.
This crap about how Putin didn't do it out of fear of Trump is cultish idiocy.
"This crap about how Putin didn’t do it out of fear of Trump is cultish idiocy."
Not something I said.
Fact is for four years Putin did not make further incursions into Ukraine.
Missed his chance, didn't he?
Oh come on, Bumble.
That's the idea underlying the whole nonsensical big deal you guys are making about Putin and Ukraine.
Some have even expressed it explicitly. You know, Trump is "tough."
Fucking load of crap.
"That’s the idea underlying the whole nonsensical big deal you guys are making about Putin and Ukraine."
Again, not something I said.
The point is, bernard11, the Russians did nothing like a UKR invasion while POTUS Trump was in office. That is just objective fact. Nothing to argue about.
Now, as to why that was the case. Deep down, I don't think the Russians were quite sure whether The Donald would freak out on them and do something massive in response. I don't think they could be sure, and it stayed their hands.
That is my theory.
Another theory is that Russia could get everything they wanted (like the destruction of NATO) just by letting Trump be Trump. Just a continuation of their 2016 support for Trump.
Yes, that is a theory too. NATO is still around, though, so I think that theory might need a little development.
Trump failed to destroy NATO and failed to win in 2020, which must have been disappointing to Putin, who undoubtedly knows "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
Of course, Trump failed at a lot of things; more failures than the Spanish Inquisition has weapons. But the Republican party did become more friendly to Russia because of Trump.
That's my theory also.
My pointy, XY, is this. People like Bumble and Brett seem to be making this some sort of issue to attack Biden with, which is nonsense.
Biden has done a lot to support Ukraine, and would be doing more if the GOP assholes in Congress would let him.
It's the Republicans, the Trump cultists, who are backing down, rather than being "tough."
bernard11, the fact is, it happened on POTUS Biden’s watch. There is no getting around that. It is objective reality.
I personally have real misgivings about UKR, and it’s strategic importance to the US. I did not think UKR was (or is) our fight. And remember, most Ukrainians gleefully supported the Nazis in WW2, and Ukrainians are almost as corrupt as the fucking Russians (which is saying a lot). So, I am not exactly excited about helping UKR – who is not a NATO ally.
That being said, once it became clear early on (by mid-March 2022), that Russia was now in a meat-grinder, fighting the Russians down to the last Ukranian and removing Russia’s capacity to invade a NATO country did become a strategic US objective. I don’t have a problem with destroying Russian military capacity.
Working together, POTUS Biden and Congress has provided over 100B (billion, with a B) in aid. Our strategic objective has been obtained; Russia is hobbled and cannot take on NATO. It is appropriate to take a brief respite and re-evaluate, which is what appears to be happening.
UKR is a corrupt cesspool. You have to wonder how much of our aid was stolen. What do you think?
the fact is, it happened on POTUS Biden’s watch. There is no getting around that. It is objective reality.
No one is denying that. But so what? Lots of things happen on every President's watch. Are they responsible for it all? Crimes? Hurricanes?
The constant references to this by MAGAT's suggest that they think Biden should somehow be held responsible for the Russian invasion. Yet when someone calls them (or you) on it they retreat into innocuous denials that that's what they meant at all. And they do it for good reason - they have no evidence, no logic, no facts, to support it. They are slinging shit and backing off when challenged.
And remember, most Ukrainians gleefully supported the Nazis in WW2,
So you wouldn't want to come to Germany's aid if they were attacked by Russia?
Ukrainians are almost as corrupt as the fucking Russians (which is saying a lot).
Some are corrupt. Is Zelensky corrupt? Putin sure is? Are there lots of Ukrainian oligarchs? I doubt you have any kind of clear idea as to how Ukrainian corruption compares with the Russian version.
UKR is a corrupt cesspool. You have to wonder how much of our aid was stolen. What do you think?
How do you know this, and why do I have to wonder?
And if it's that bad, why do Trump and friends continue to criticize Biden for trying, when VP, to get the country to crack down?
Maybe the Democratic Presidents are just unlucky?
Just because several major wars started on their watch doesn't mean they are warmongers (unlike those darn Republicans)!
WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
WWIII (Axis of Resistance Russia/Iran/China)?
"I personally have real misgivings about UKR, and it’s strategic importance to the US. I did not think UKR was (or is) our fight."
That's because you're an ignorant fool.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/high-price-losing-ukraine
Here's the second part, not that I expect you to so much as click on either link before coming back with some idiotic response that has nothing to do with Ukraine or your ignorance of the strategic consequences.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/high-price-losing-ukraine-part-2-%E2%80%94-military-threat-and-beyond
Do you think Putin wasn't planning his invasion of Ukraine during Trump's term, with the expectation that Trump would win re-election and hobble NATO from organizing an effective response?
Trump has promised he could end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours. How do you think he'd do that?
Curious. Just what has been NATO's response?
Don't play dumb. Answer my questions. Do you think that Putin threw together his invasion of Ukraine only after Biden won? How do you think Trump would resolve the current war?
Do you understand the difference between having a plan, and deciding that it's now safe to execute it?
Yes he does understand. It is inconvenient to acknowledge that, tho.
The more you talk about Ukraine, the more delicious it will be when America stops paying the staggering, varied prices of subsidizing the right-wing jerks in Israel.
And then being proved completely wrong.
There you go, Bumble. Here's Brett going for the "Trump is tough" theory. Cultishness.
And Brett, what do you think Trump would have done? Not a goddamn thing, and you know it.
bernard11, we already know what POTUS Trump did. He sold Javelin anti-tank missiles to UKR. Those are the same missiles his predecessor, POTUS Obama, refused to sell to UKR. FTR, those very same Javelins that POTUS Trump arranged to be sold to UKR have now taken out a rather substantial number of Russian tanks.
It was smart, not tough.
"We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps, specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes," Zelenskiy told Trump,
"I would like you to do us a favor though," Trump responded.
Smart, not tough, indeed!
The objective fact remains: POTUS Trump did arrange for the sale and delivery of Javelins to UKR. It is also an objective fact that Russia did not invade during his term of office.
The sale and delivery of Javelins was decisive in terms of the military engagement during late Feb and early Mar 2022.
Trump initially opposed the sale of the Javelin missiles, and they were sold on condition of being kept in western Ukraine, away from the fighting.
Republicans also believe that everything done in Ukraine in Obama's second term was to enrich Joe Biden, so any missiles sent then would have just ended up in Hunter Biden's possession, and nobody wants that.
Trump didn't "sell Javelin anti-tank missiles to UKR".
Congress did that. And then Trump tried to extort "a favor" from Ukraine solely to assist his 2020 re-election campaign by blocking the sale. And you want to give him credit for the initial sale, too?
It is also an objective fact that Russia did not invade during his term of office.
Why do you keep repeating this? What do you think is its significance, and why?
No; Congress did. In fact, Trump opposed that, and then tried to use them to extort Ukraine into making up stuff about the Bidens.
Magister 7 hours ago
"Trump initially opposed the sale of the Javelin missiles, and they were sold on condition of being kept in western Ukraine, away from the fighting."
It's a good thing, too; If they were in eastern Ukraine, Russia would have captured them!
They would have been safer still if they weren't in Ukraine at all. Presumably the Ukrainians would use them; that Zelensky wanted to buy more suggests that they would have been used.
You'll need to choose a side of your mouth to speak out of, Brett, because the argument you seem to be making is that Putin would have expected Trump to respond more harshly and competently to Putin's invasion of Ukraine than Biden so far has.
OK, I'll answer your question. NO.
Now answer mine; What has been NATO's response?
So you agree that Putin was planning to invade Ukraine with Trump in office, which undermines your attempt to pin the blame for the invasion on Biden.
I'm not going to address your question on NATO because you and I both know it's a bad-faith pedantic point that leads nowhere but an attempt to derail the thread.
Without even doing an internet search: Condemnation of Russia, support for Ukraine, reinforcing military forces in member nations, getting new member nations.
In other words, virtue signaling. Other than some NATO members contributing arms and weapons systems a lot of talk.
Wait.
The EU has taken in millions of UKR refugees. This is not a small matter, Mr. Bumble. Additionally, the EU is hosting a vastly increased US contingent (lots of hidden cost there). The EU are 'holding the line' on the Russian Bear.
Our NATO partners do a lot vis a vis UKR, and sadly it is not reported on.
I don't discount the efforts of EU members (especially some of the Eastern European members) but the EU is not NATO and NATO is not the EU.
That is true Mr. Bumble...NATO =/= EU. Granted.
But there sure is a lot of overlap, no? 🙂
NATO doesn't really have the power to do anything except through its member nations; but the member nations have acted in accordance with the treaty, which should be credited as something that NATO has done.
Providing massive amounts of economic and/or military support for Ukraine is not "virtue signaling." Implementing comprehensive sanctions on Russia is not "virtue signaling."
Once again, not the actions of NATO.
If NATO does nothing, why would any nation want to join it? And yet they do.
"good chunk of Finland,"
LOL You might not recall the Winter War but Putin certainly can.
He's still looking for payback. He clearly doesn't give a shit about the cannonfodder.
Except that he's running out of it.
Russia's population has been declining since the late 90's, now its accelerating,
https://datacommons.org/place/country/RUS/?utm_medium=explore&mprop=count&popt=Person&hl=en
If Putin gave a shit about the demographic disaster he's overseeing he hasn't shown any sign of it yet.
On the contrary. Why do you suppose he had them kidnap so many young Ukrainian children, to adopt out to Russians? If you can't produce your own children, stealing the neighbor's is the next best thing.
Nothing to do with demographics, everything to do with ethnic cleansing. Y’know, like when all those children seperated from their families at the border under Trump were farmed out to Christian families for adoption. Or maybe that was demographics, too.
Trump is asking for absolute immunity, and you're pointing elsewhere and yelling about kings.
You also continue to believe Biden exercised some kind of sub rosa control over state and local prosecutors, as well as the DoJ. With zero evidence of coordination or anything like that. You just FEEL it, man.
This kind of deluded persecution complex is exactly where the right wants you to be. But it's awful for the country.
"exactly where the right wants you to be"
Thanks for your conspiracy theory of the day.
Now you don't know what 'conspiracy theory' means.
He is just throwing more shit on the wall, Don Nico. Sort of like a toddler would, digging through their diapers for material to use.
I have no idea who’s doing all this, aside from prosecutors and investigators. “Biden” has never crossed my lips. That is completely irrelevant. I didn't vote for Trump (2×). I didn't vote for Biden. I am sick of voting for the lesser of two evils. I don't care how loudly either side screams the other side is so god damned evil I need to vote against them. And then have the temerity to squeak that, by not doing so, I am partly responsible if the "evil-er" side wins. Screw you.
Your echo chamber informs you to think that way, and that you’re a goos person for doing so.
Your words are lies, as given by uncountable initiatives, one fails, move on to the next, to git ‘im!
You claim that isn’t the case, that it is purely disinterested concern for rule of law. This. Is. A. Lie.
See the many initiatives the past 7 years, embedded in a vast cotton ball of more reasonable standard political fighting to fight him to a draw in policies.
Slightly more accurately, it's a lie by power brokers who chuck things into the top of echo chambers for the hoi polloi to believe.
"Tell 'em...tell 'em it wasn't some rioting assholes. Tell 'em it was a real coup attempt. They'll eat it up and it will help in our attack against a political opponent."
Who are these power brokers?
I've seen two types of people talk like this - insane leftists talking about 'capital' like a person controlling everyone not as enlightened as them, and anti-Semites.
Even if you're some third type, the puppetmaster trope is not a well supported one.
'Your echo chamber informs you to think that way, and that you’re a goos person for doing so.'
I mean it's pretty clear your echo chamber is flattering the shit out of you.
If it's not Biden, then 'Kings did all this stuff all the time' refers to...what, the inchoate character of Big Government?
You're trying so hard to be nonpartisan, but what you are doing is saying that Trump's plan for revenge is cool and good. Yeah, nonpartisan?
For all your protestations, you favor a king, and you want a partisan war.
Saying everyone who disagrees with you is just in their echo chamber is fun and all, but doesn't work great on liberals who some to the VC.
Your words are lies
Zounds.
You claim that isn’t the case, that it is purely disinterested concern for rule of law
I am aware I have bias, but I call them as I see them. And what I see from you is a lot of speculation into conspiracies against Trump. And we're allll in on it.
Which doesn't seem a healthy thing to delude yourself into. Again, in my opinion.
See the many initiatives the past 7 years
I don't even know what this means.
Completely agree that “elected” and “appointed” are two different things. There is an election for Congress on the first Tuesday in November. But no election for President takes place then; that is the day that the presidential electors are appointed. The only election for President is the one that takes place in state capitols December, by the (appointed) members of the Electoral College.
But that doesn’t mean Professor Blackman is right on his main point. Both elected officers and appointed officers are officers of the United States.
One that Tuesday after the first Monday in November, who appoints the electors?
Could you try English, please?
Otto Cowrecked changed "On" to "One". I trust you can understand the rest.
You’re right. It’s the Tuesday after the first Monday in November, not the first Tuesday. My bad. Mistake noted. But this mistake doesn’t make the rest of what I said wrong.
Well, my main question was: You claimed "that is the day that the presidential electors are appointed". Who appoints them on that day?
There's no such thing as an "elected" officer in the government. Even in the private sector context, officers are appointed. You aren't going to prevail in this argument.
I mean, that's just plain wrong. Private sector membership organizations elect their officers.
Even for plain old corporations, although it’s become standard for the key formal corporate officers (President, VP, treasurer, secretary) to be appointed by the board, especially in smaller and/or older companies they can get elected by the shareholders (that was the older practice). In LLCs and non-profits, as David Nierporent notes they or their equivalents not only can be but commonly are elected by the members.
"LLCs ... not only can be but commonly are elected by the members."
Misleading.
1) Many LLCs have only one member
2) Another huge number only have two,
3) Most LLCs have no officers, the member(s) just run it.
Please explain the difference between "appointed" and "elected" in a closely held LLC context. Its meaningless.
What you're saying is that the words can often be used interchangeably?
And of course I had mentioned membership organizations. One I am intimately familiar with is my shul; we have an annual meeting and elect all of our officers. President/veeps/treasurer/etc. (Our clergy and office staff are employees.) Also true of other not-for-profits with which I am involved.
Mouat 1888:
"Unless a person in the service of the government, therefore, holds his place by virtue of an appointment by the president, or of one of the
courts of justice or heads of departments authorized by law to make such an appointment, he is not, strictly speaking, an officer of the
United States. We do not see any reason to review this well established definition of what it is that constitutes such an officer."
Smith 1888:
"An officer of the United States can only be
appointed by the president, by and with the advice and
consent of the senate, or by a court of law, or the head of
a department. A person in the service of the government
who does not derive his position from one of these sources is not an officer of the United States in the sense of the Constitution".
And more recently in Free Enterprise Fund v. Public Company Accounting Oversight Board, 561 U.S. 477, 2010.
If it wasn’t clear to academia before, hopefully this tripe will convince them to stop taking Josh seriously. He’s a bomb thrower whose only interest is being the “intellectual” on the side of the fascist mob. Stop treating him like a grown up.
But didn't you read? Everyone whoever disagreed with him has been proven wrong! 😉
It's interesting to note that the only "scholarly" things he's ever written on VC have been joint efforts with other law professors. When he's writing for himself, it's almost always some kind of nonsense about Supreme Court gossip.
"fascist "
I bet JB, unlike you, knows what a fascist actually is.
And he knows the importance of sucking up to them.
What's your over/under to cites to the Tillman/Blackman brief when the court rules in a couple of weeks on Trump v Anderson?
Mine is 2, but with a caveat, if its an unsigned per curiam then its zero.
Both by Thomas in dissent, or one by Thomas in dissent/lonely concurrence and the other by Alito in dissent/lonely concurrence?
They will post new "research" at the last minute knowing full well that those who are in a position to confirm the accuracy of newly reported "research" will have little or no time to do so before the Supreme Court decides this case. And, for a few, that is not a bug, it is the chief feature.
His critics are not only wrong, they are dishonest also.
Well, it IS an empirically falsifiable claim, and in the near future, yet.
The claim that things will be posted is an empirical claim.
The claim that it will be done with dishonest intent to deny time for a response is not. Not everyone is as obsessed with this "officer" business as Blackman.
As it gets more press of course people will pay more attention, and address it.
Well this isn't their first rodeo.
Its worth noting the kerfluffle during the emoluments case in 2017 Tillman and Blackman's Trump v. CREW brief in 2017.
Lathrop should take special note.
Adam Liptak reported in the NY Times:
"The reaction was swift and brutal. Legal historians and a lawyer for members of Congress suing Mr. Trump said Mr. Tillman had misunderstood, misrepresented or suppressed crucial contrary evidence in a second document.
Jed Shugerman, a law professor at Fordham, wrote a blog post urging Mr. Tillman to issue a correction. “One might expect,” Professor Shugerman wrote, “that when a brief before a court contains significant factual errors or misleading interpretations of evidence, the authors of that brief will offer to correct their briefs or retract the sections if they are no longer supported by the evidence.”
In another blog post, Brianne J. Gorod, a lawyer with the Constitutional Accountability Center, which represents lawmakers suing Mr. Trump, said Mr. Tillman’s account was “not accurate, not even remotely so.”
But that wasn't all the Historians had to say on the subject, they had something more to say a few weeks later:
"Our correction and apology to Professor Tillman
Today our lawyers sent a letter (linked here) to Judge Daniels acknowledging an error in footnote 82 of our amicus brief in CREW et al., v. Trump. In addition to correcting this error, we would like to take this opportunity to apologize to Seth Barrett Tillman, to whom this footnote refers. Although we acted in good faith, we now recognize that we were wrong to cite blog posts criticizing Professor Tillman’s research without undertaking more extensive due diligence to determine whether those criticisms were justified."
Althouse has the quotes and links:
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/09/i-stand-entirely-behind-above-footnote.html
I really don't care, but doesn't one technically resign one office a millisecond before accepting the election to the other.
And I may be confusing this with Robert's Rules, but doesn't one have to ACCEPT an election to an office? Robert's lets you decline it (if present) which is why you want to be at town meeting...
Oh this is rich fun!
On the last episode of "Professor Blackman vs. the Constitution," he was arguing presidents are not officers "under" the United States and therefore not subject to disqualification as rebels under 14/3.
Today, he's arguing that if presidents are officers "under" the United States, then approving a pay increase of $1 would bar Senators and Representatives from being elected to the presidency if, counterfactually, "elect" and "appoint" mean the same thing, which Blackman (I think) disputes.
But he doesn't address the consequence in the next phrase (not even a new sentence) of Article 1, Section 6, which bars an officer "under" the United States from simultaneously being a member of Congress. Blackman's reading of the Constitutional prepositions would permit Trump to be the president AND a Senator AND the speaker of the House (AND attorney general, I guess) at the same time--a result A1/6 clearly intends to avoid.
But why address that when one can just "...." it away?
Why do you think A1/6 clearly intends to avoid that?
What it clearly intends to avoid is senators and Congressmen be appointed to executive positions by the President.
And the President could be his own AG without confirmation. And if he somehow was appointed or elected to a congressional seat, he could be expelled by that house. And we've already have the VP serving as President of the Senate.
Anybody else read this amicus brief in the 14th amendment case? https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-719/295994/20240118094034746_Trump%20v%20Anderson.pdf
Spends a good amount of time discussing the winter insurrection [by a cabinet member moving military hardware to the south ahead of the civil war so it could easily be commandeered by rebels as well as a plan to prevent the inauguration of President Lincoln] before the 'big insurrection' [i.e, civil war] and which, according to the authors, was fresh in the mind of all the authors of the 14th amendment sec 3?? The authors have zero issue concluding on an originalist basis [based on their historical research into this era] that the office of the Presidency was most certainly included as an office subject to its terms.
I found the historical analysis rather fascinating and I don't recall, in the various readings on this site from Prof Blackman, him bringing this up. **It may have been brought up in the 1,000plus pages of total writings he is always bragging about but I ain't got time for that shit**
We need to stop fighting the Civil War. End Reconstruction now.
The fighting is over. There American culture war isn't quite over -- a bit of residual jostling continues -- but it has been settled.
Isn't the common sense answer to accept that appoint and elect refer to different actions but that phrases like "time for which they were elected" means to include all ways of occupying the office?
Seems kind of strange to refute Blackman and Tillman's meticulous word parsing and counterintuitive reading of Officer of the United States, with meticulous word parsing and counterintuitive reading of Appointed.
For that reason I don't think Scotus will base its ruling on the Officers question. They'll base it on Griffin, the Enforcement Act of 1870, the Insurrection statute, and Section 5, which has the added benefit of throwing the ball back in Congress' court: if you don't like our ruling change the law, its your section 5, not ours.
Of course that does open up an interesting hypothetical, say Trump wins, Democrats retain the Senate, the House flips to the Democrats, then on Jan. 3rd Congress votes to disqualify Trump by simple majority based on the Jan. 6th Committee report, Biden signs the legislation, and then Trump is disqualified.
I think that would be kosher, and under section 3 of the 20th Amendment the VP Elect becomes Acting President on Jan 20th.
But, that would be politicalfare!
I've always wondered if Josh is doing this because he's MAGA, or is just a Constitution geek who longs to be influential?