FIRE's "Taking a Knee" Ad (Which Aired During USC v. Notre Dame Game)

For more background, see here.

Comments

[SRG2]

Very clever! And funny because it's true

[Dan Schiavetta]

Funny because it's true.

Waiting to hear from our resident right-wingers to see if they agree. Or are they afraid to laugh at themselves?

[Dr. Ed 2]

Notwithstanding my respect for FIRE -- and my respect for them doing an incredible job demonstrating the diversity of free speech, my attitude is that ALL of the speech was inappropriate in this venue.

This is a limited public forum -- he's wearing a uniform after all.
Standing for the national anthem is like high school players shaking hands at the end of the game -- it's an element of civility in an otherwise violent game, the sort of a civility that is to remind people to follow the rules.

And if one *doesn't* consider this a limited public forum, absolutely everyone would have the right to run out onto the field and say whatever they wanted to say. Say end to a football game being played that day....

And the solution to bad speech is more speech -- so what about all of the people who would want to dispute everything that man said? (Starting with RAK wanting to dispute the existence of God...)

Time, place, and manner.

Biden was in Boston yesterday. While I have every right to carry a sign saying "Biden Sucks", I do not have the right to stand in the middle of the street blocking his motorcade with that sign. No more than I do with a "I love Biden" sign....

[Brett Bellmore]

Pretty much. They should both just play the stupid game, but if you're allowed to use the opportunity for a private gesture, it's fair game for everybody.

Thought the problem with the whole business all along was that they tried to have it both ways: Only one side got to make the gesture.

[Sarcastr0]

Needs moar machine guns.

[Brett Bellmore]

What's the point of something going without saying, if you say it anyway?

[jdgalt1]

Spot on. Depending on the contractual relationships involved, either the league, the team, the venue, or the network has a perfect right to banish political speech on any topic from the game presentation, and it would be wise if they did so. Let the discontented throw tantrums on their own time.

[SRG2]

Standing for the national anthem is as much political speech as kneeling, of course.

[bernard11]

There is that.

[VinniUSMC]

Roller coaster from start to finish. FIRE is on fire.

[Ed Grinberg]

compare:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3296057/SEBASTIAN-SHAKESPEARE-Benedict-s-four-letter-rant-stuns-playgoers.html

There's a time and a place.
As I see it, the kneeling athletes (and Mr. Cumberbatch) are showing disrespect for their audience. The audience came to see them play (or act), not to hear their views on (fill in the blank).
I think it would've been perfectly justifiable for Colin Kaepernick to be kicked off his NFL team for kneeling during the national anthem. (And, of course, the same goes for any other player, regardless of his reason for pulling such a stunt.)
No, Colin, no one is attacking your freedom of speech; you just have to fulfill your obligations to your team and your fans, refraining from personal political displays on the field.

[DaveM]

I loved the part where the microphone slides in slowly from the side so his voice can be broadcast to the world. Oh yes, the media is very much involved in making sure we’re all either shocked or soothed. They make sure their bread gets buttered, you can count on it.

[Nige]

So you are attacking his freedom of speech.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Huh? Since when do people have the right to speak on other people's TV programs?

[Nige]

I thought it was a sports fixture.

[TwelveInchPianist]

It's both.

[Michael Ejercito]

did the NFL advertise its football field as a place where football players can express their thoughts and opinions freely?

Did they advertise their football fields as the free speech wing of the free speech party?

[TwelveInchPianist]

Yeah, maybe they should have run an ad saying "Warning! The NFL does not promise its players free speech during football games."

[Nige]

Who cares? You're attacking his freedom of speech. This is just you trying to find the right wording.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Nobody’s attacking his freedom of speech. People are just saying that if someone wants to express their own viewpoint, they have to do it on their own time, in their own forum or a public forum.

[shawn_dude]

Where does it say that one is obligated to refrain from expressing their opinion? I think you invented that. It sounds a lot like “knowing your place” where “place” in your "time and place" is a role rather than a location.

Standing and placing your hand on your chest for the National Anthem is also not an obligation for most. (I think it might be for the NFL employees but likely not the performers.)

This “obligation” seems to be an invention designed to make anti-free speech activists look reasonable.

[David Nieporent]

"Football games are no place for politics. Now listen to the national anthem."

[CJColucci]

When people yell that they want to keep the politics out of sports, remember that, to them, it's politics only when they disagree with it. When they agree, it's just normal.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

Isn't there a whole ancient book about how politics can be good?

[CJColucci]

The people who yell about getting [someone else's] politics out of sports probably haven't read it.

[The Margrave of Azilia]

Well, I haven’t read it either. But it’s sad how the 97% of politicians who are crooked have given politics a bad name and spoiled things for the remaining 3%.

It's *highly* political to make an extravaganza out of competitions among teams of the best American athletes, in a context of patriotic hoopla. It sounds like good politics to me - well, except maybe football if the stuff about head injuries is true.

[DaveM]

This is hilarious! Well done, FIRE. Very well done.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Funny add, but I'm not sure how this is a free speech issue or an individual rights issue.

[shawn_dude]

Because the ping-pong opinions on whether he ought to be able to do that were based on the content of his speech? Seems obvious.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Sure, but there's no state action. The NFL has its own free speech rights about what to air on their broadcasts, the ping-pongers are entitled to choose what they want to listen to, etc.

[Sarcastr0]

FIRE dings private schools for their speech policies as well.

VC has discussed free speech culture as being more than the formalistic contours of judicial precedent.

It's telling how many on the right cry about free speech and cancel culture and that evil twitter and then go all out for NFL restricting speech or laws banning books in schools and libraries. Or laws telling teachers and doctors what they must or must not say.

Fair weather free speech advocates aren't.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"FIRE dings private schools for their speech policies as well."
Only if they promise free speech. The NFL doesn't promise any such think. Nobody expects a football game to be a discussion forum.

"It’s telling how many on the right cry about free speech and cancel culture and that evil twitter and then go all out for NFL restricting speech..."

Why yes it is. As I point out above, the people suggesting that the NFL needs to allow players to express themselves during broadcasts are making a worse version of the argument that the right makes about social media. Social media is, in fact a discussion forum, and free speech culture is much more applicable.

[David Nieporent]

It's not a first amendment issue; that doesn't mean it isn't a free speech issue. Our free speech values are broader than our first amendment rights.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Sure, but that would have been more appropriate for a situation like where people were trying to shut down Tim Tebow's purportedly pro-life superbowl ad.

Here, people are just saying, look, I just want to watch a patriotic ceremony and a game without people kneeling during the national anthem. Go express your opinion somewhere else.

Free speech doesn't mean the right to an audience, and the reason the players are choosing to kneel during the national anthem instead of, say, writing a letter to the editor is that they have a more or less captive audience.

[Michael Ejercito]

Our legal and ethical traditions have long tolerated employers regulating employee speech.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

This blog's fans seem to have changed their views concerning that case involving the Bremerton football coach (the ostentatiously pious quitter) . . . for a few minutes, anyway.

Carry on, clingers.

[Brett Bellmore]

" is that they have a more or less captive audience."

Rather "less", on the evidence.

[Sarcastr0]

Free speech means TiP doesn't get offended by your lack of patriotism.

"Go express your opinion somewhere else" he says unironically.

[TwelveInchPianist]

“Go express your opinion somewhere else” he says unironically.”

Huh? What’s wrong with that, in a private stadium? It’s the same thing you tell people about twitter deleting their posts, right?

I mean, what you're complaining about is literally the equivalent of people saying that a blog moderator should delete off-topic posts. There's no "free speech culture" problem there at all.

[Sarcastr0]

What's wrong with that is just because it's legal doesn't mean it's cool.

You want a world that works hard not to offend you. You and the SJWs can have a good time in your safe spaces I guess.

[TwelveInchPianist]

“ What’s wrong with that is just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s cool.”

Sure, but what’s uncool about tailoring a public entertainment event to the preferences of the entity hosting the event, and to the preferences of the audience, and not to the personal preferences of the people being paid to provide the entertainment?

[TwelveInchPianist]

“ What’s wrong with that is just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s cool.”

Is it uncool for the NFL to prevent players from calling for the genocide of the Jews during the national anthem?

[BrotherMovesOn]

I would think players "calling for the genocide of the Jews during the national anthem" would merit more than a stiff fine.

[bernard11]

Here, people are just saying, look, I just want to watch a patriotic ceremony

Everyone is saying that? Nobody finds all the patriotic display, which sometimes goes beyond the anthem, a boring and unnecessary distraction? I bet some do.

At least kneeling during the anthem doesn't take any extra time.

[TwelveInchPianist]

“ Everyone is saying that? Nobody finds all the patriotic display, which sometimes goes beyond the anthem, a boring and unnecessary distraction?”

Wow. Some strawman. People are entitled to say both things, and the NFL is entitled to listen to them and express itself according to their preferences if it chooses.

[Absaroka]

“Everyone is saying that? Nobody finds all the patriotic display, which sometimes goes beyond the anthem, a boring and unnecessary distraction? I bet some do.”

Sure, but so? The opera, ballet, and symphony enforce their desired rules of decorum. Some of the audience probably wants to clap or sing along or form an impromptu mosh pit, but the organizers seem to think a majority of their customers like a snootier atmosphere. They get to have it. If the NFL wants to do the anthem, that’s OK. If they want to ask for a moment of silence to acknowledge that the land the stadium is on was stolen from the First Peoples and we should all reflect on our personal guilt for that, well that’s OK too.

Some customers might like, or dislike, either approach, and it might affect their attendance. That's that customer's business.

[Area Man]

That was brilliant, especially their reactions to the flat-Earth part.

[not guilty]

That is a relevant culture war issue. Where are the four corners of the earth? (Isaiah 11:12; Revelation 7:1 KJV)

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Is there any discussion that is not improved by more superstition?

[not guilty]

I have posed the four corners question multiple times on these comment threads. No advocate of Biblical inerrancy has seen fit to answer.

[VinniUSMC]

I don't know who "advocate[s] of Biblical inerrancy" are, but your question is dumber than the answers you likely expect.

I wouldn't put it past someone who believes in 6000 year old Earth to also think that "four corners" is literal, but I doubt that is a very commonly held belief. Making your calling-out of said advocates pathetic on top of stupid.

[DaveM]

What is your issue with the "four corners of the earth"? It's an idiom. It means "the fullest extent", as in "all four points of a compass". What, are you thinking the authors are referring to literally "corners" of something? No. Ditto with idioms such as "as far as the East is from the West". That one means "infinitely far".

[tkamenick]

Funny! Reminds me of some of the Reason videos ping ponging like that (Libertarian Star Wars just popped up on my Facebook memories again).

[M L]

Laughed at the flat earth part.

[Absaroka]

That was great, thanks EV

[The Margrave of Azilia]

That was great!

[The Margrave of Azilia]

There were more diverse viewpoints within that one player than among many groups.

[Dan Schiavetta]

My question “can right wingers laugh at themselves like left wingers do?” has been answered pretty conclusively here.

[Krayt]

I recall a band member in high school saying most of the football audience came to see the band halftime show.

[TwelveInchPianist]

"It’s sure fun to watch nerds argue with a straight face that the anthem ceremony is what fans think they’re paying for. That’s the heart of sportsball!"

That's what you're criticizing the fans for, right?

[TwelveInchPianist]

Sigh.
OK, how 'bout "Warning! The NFL does not promise its players free speech during anthems or football games.”

Better?

I mean, talk about a quibble.

[Nige]

One player kneeling prompts suggestions that the NFL BANS FREE SPEECH ENTIRELY. Man, such free speech absolutism.

[TwelveInchPianist]

Huh? How on earth can the NFL ban free speech entirely?

But they have their own free speech right to determine what expression takes place on their broadcasts and events.

Why do you hate free speech?