The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
U Chicago Arrests Student Protesters Engaging in Pro-Palestinian "Sit-in" in Admissions Office (+ Two Faculty Members)
From the Chicago Maroon (Nikhil Jaiswal, Finn Hartnett, Solana Adedokun & Michael McClure):
At 6:15 p.m. University of Chicago Police Department (UCPD) officers began to arrest demonstrators engaged in a sit-in inside Rosenwald Hall. In addition to student demonstrators, two faculty members were also arrested. The arrested individuals were processed inside adjacent Walker Museum as protesters surrounded all exits. They were charged with "criminal trespass to real property," a Class B misdemeanor under Illinois state law.
Protesters from UChicago United for Palestine (UCUP) have been engaged in a sit-in in the building since 11:30 a.m…..
At 6:05 p.m., a protester warned that those inside Rosenwald were given five minutes to leave the building before they would be issued a citation….
Seems quite right to me (though I think the university should have removed the protesters more quickly), and would have been so even at a public university governed by the First Amendment.
Of course, the same rules can and should be applied to any hypothetical pro-Israel sit-in, anti-abortion sit-in, anti-police-brutality sit-in, and so on. Indeed, one might ask, "What should happen to anti-abortion students who decided to engage in a sit-in in the medical school admissions office?," and apply the same answer—they should be arrested as trespassers, I think—to any other group of trespassers, regardless of viewpoint. There is no First Amendment right to occupy university offices, and I don't think broader free speech or academic freedom principles include such rights, either. Free speech principles secure broad rights to demonstrate in public spaces, generally including public spaces at universities. But they don't secure a right to demonstrate inside university offices.
Government offices, and space inside government buildings more broadly, are "nonpublic forums," where the government can restrict speech so long as the restriction is viewpoint-neutral and reasonable in light of the purposes for which the place is being operated. Requiring that admission offices be just for office employees and students invited for admission-related purposes is eminently reasonable. To the extent that a private university voluntarily accepts restraints such as those that the First Amendment imposes on public universities, it also retains the power to make sure that its offices are used for their intended purposes, not for speech by whatever group wants to use them.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
I hate Illinois Nazis!
Good use of a great quote. No notes.
I'm laughing out loud at a Drackman post. There is hope after all for our country.
I also hate Massachusetts Nazis.
https://twitter.com/RetsefL/status/1722852140245254559
I guess you didn't follow the link in this discussion 5 months ago. I miss the movie reviews, even if this was before they started.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/06/14/today-in-supreme-court-history-june-14-1810-4/?comments=true#comment-10108495
It should be the same for blocking roads or streets. Either that or let them take their chances.
One Problem here Professor. Right now the Democrats are trying to hide their true views on Israel, that's why the protesters were removed. The other things that you mention are actively supported by them, that's why they will be allowed to continue.
Early 2017 I was taking my 8 year old Great Niece's Basketball Team to see a Women's College game. We were invited by the coach of the team. This was during the "pussy hat" protests. When we got to the Fieldhouse there was a protest going on. Some rumor had started that the game was going to be on ESPN, it wasn't. We were turned away by Campus Police because they were afraid that me and two of the girl's Fathers were not going to put up with any crap (they were right). One of the Police told me that they were there to PROTECT the protesters. That's right the Administration gave them orders to protect the protesters. The protesters were not even STUDENTS, the College was on Winter Break.
The moral of the story is that you have poor impulse control?
Yeah, that's a real case of, "I'm going to tell a story, and it's going to say a lot. But I'm not going to understand what it's actually saying."
When you say that do you use that annoying increase in voice pitch on the last syllable? Probably with a "Vocal Fry"? But since you asked, I'll answer.
He had great impulse control, I'd have been inconspicuous and sucker punched one of the protesters (Biologic Males only) when nobody was looking. Or "accidently" stomped on one of their insteps (my old Navy Flight boots are great for that, the Crocs/Birkenstocks lose every time)
Frank
“Me and two of the girl’s Fathers were not going to put up with any crap (they were right)”
Oh? Say more! What was your plan exactly?
He could tell you but then he'd have to kill you.
Everybody got a plan till they get punched in the face.
A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Bill Clinton!
Frank "I love it when a plan comes together"
And how many fathers does this girl have?
"my 8 year old Great Niece’s Basketball Team"; It's pretty typical for a girls' basketball team to have multiple fathers.
You can ding him for improper apostrophe placement, anyway.
I hate Grammar Nazis
How about grammandos?
As long as I can ding him for the improper use of the object pronoun "me" as a subject pronoun.
Are you Cookie Monster?
Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit around here.
What was the crap that you and the dads were “not going to put up with” anyways?
Protesting? Pussy hats? ESPN’s programming decisions? The cops protecting people from you and the dads?
If it’s the last— there is of course one person who comes to mind immediately who approves of that sort of thing, at least in some cases:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/congresswoman-says-trump-administration-botched-capitol-riot-preparations-2021-05-12/
To what do you ascribe your illiteracy?
Regardless of the merits, or lack thereof, of the issue that the protesters might have, it is perfectly acceptable for citations to be issued when you decide that the form of your protest is to stage a "sit-in" on private property.
Civil disobedience has its place as a form of protest, but part of that is that the people employing it have the courage of their convictions. That they might face a citation or a night in jail is part of it (and, arguably, raises the profile of the protest).
Anyway, IMO, it was good that the University waited a while, and then issued a warning. But the protesters chose not to abide by that, and there is (as EV points out) no general FA right to demonstrate on private property (and this would hold in similar non-public forums on state campuses as well).
Really, the question is so trivial, one wonders why Eugene felt the need to address it. Could it be that his purpose is less, "Here is an interesting First Amendment angle on recent events," than, "Here is another example of leftist college students being obnoxious (and properly punished) that my worst readers are likely to be amused by"?
Why would only his worst readers be amused by obnoxious people being properly punished?
If you are "amused" by the punishment of people you deem "obnoxious," you do not have good moral character.
Well, if I deem innocent people "obnoxious", sure. But these are fairly objectively obnoxious people, in as much as they're engaged in obnoxious conduct, but worse, in support of a terrorist organization. (UCUP is affilated with the national Students for Justice in Palestine. They are NOT nice folks.)
Nothing wrong with positive feelings about wrongdoers encountering mild negative consequences.
A person of good moral character also does not try to dodge responsibility for their flaws in judgment by making bad-faith, specious arguments premised upon an unsupported, tenuous allegation.
Sure, but what's that got to do with people being amused at criminal terrorist sympathizers being arrested?
“ bad-faith, specious arguments premised upon an unsupported, tenuous allegation.”
That’s actually a pretty good description of your OP.
Eugene routinely posts FA-related or -adjacent current events where he agrees with the outcome, and events where he disagrees with the outcome. As a long time (14+ years) reader of the V.C. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with this post.
I have been following the VC for about as long.
You might note that my comment was not, "This post seems unusual for Eugene." Rather, it was, "This post includes commentary that is trivially obvious, suggesting that Eugene had purposes in making this post other than to inform readers on how the First Amendment applies (or doesn't)."
I read your comment. The fact that you commented at all implied you felt something distinguished this post from the rest of Eugene's contributions. After all, if it's just "more of the same" there isn't much of a reason to single it out.
So, yeah, just so I understand:
Are you arguing that I actually did mean to imply something by commenting on Eugene's post, despite my explicitly saying that I did not mean to imply it, and nothing about the implication follows from what I actually said?
Or are you arguing that I shouldn't have commented in the first place, because Eugene's pattern of past posting protects him from any criticism, like we're past some kind of rhetorical statute of limitations?
Again - if you want to make the point that Eugene often says stupidly trivial things about First-Amendment adjacent current events, as a way of subtly implying where he leans on the issue, then sure - I recognize that is something that he often does. Not that that was actually in dispute. In any event, I do think Eugene's posting has shifted over recent years, away from subjects where there are actually interesting questions to consider, towards "red meat" topics that are more likely to drive some kind of engagement.
I'm a long-time reader and poster as well. I'm not sure either way. What do you think, loki?
At the very least I am going to categorize Eugene's future 1A posts as 1) trivial or not, and 2) calling out the right or left. I may even do likewise going back in time.
Well, I think three things that can all be true at the same time-
1. It’s his platform, and he can post whatever he wants. And that includes whatever he finds interesting.
2. That said, I do think that SimonP has a point in that EV will sometimes post on certain topics that serve to get some people here “good and riled up” if you know what I mean.
3. On the other hand, I can certainly understand why EV is interested in anti-Semitism in general, and especially on college campuses. So I can understand why he’d post on the topic, and the intersection with the FA.
*shrug*
Or it could be the instances of Universities arresting and/or citing students for violating rules and laws is incredibly rare, and in many cases has gotten them what they want instead.
So here is an instance that bucks the trend, from a highly ranked university, and one that is among the best in the nation regarding free speech rights for students and factulty, that shows how to properly handle the situation within 1st amendment bounds
Translation: my fellow leftists are embarrassing even me and I want people to stop pointing it out.
Since the NYT/CNN/WAPOO hivemind probably think MAGA is ridiculous why are they covering them at all? I mean isn’t it so obvious that people should automatically be able to draw the ‘right’ conclusions? All these MSM should drop all this obvious red meat for their ideologue viewers and stick to real news.
loki13, I agree with you on this: ...it was good that the University waited a while, and then issued a warning. But the protesters chose not to abide by that, and there is (as EV points out) no general FA right to demonstrate on private property (and this would hold in similar non-public forums on state campuses as well)
Are mugshots publicly available in IL? I would really love to make sure I never hire or interact with any of the Judeocidal pro-Hamas terror supporters ever in my life. Hopefully they are publicly available and Canary Mission posts that publicly available data (and their social media history) on their website.
I am all for the little darlings screaming their twisted beliefs loudly and proudly in the public square. By all means, they can hang themselves with the rope they're given.
So, if any Jewish people calling for a ceasefire apply to or interact with you, you're going to call them anti-semitic?
In addition to student demonstrators, two faculty members were also arrested.
Surely those faculty members don't have jobs any more. Even assuming they have tenure, committing a crime against the university has to count as cause to fire, right?
As much as people are on the war-path for retribution (which is always true when emotions are running hot), the answer is no. A misdemeanor such as this would not be grounds for revoking tenure.
Really? So every day a university professor can steal an amount that's a dollar below the threshold for grand theft and keep their job? Coupled with prosecutors who all but ignore misdemeanors, this could be an impressive augmentation to their salary with nothing in the way of consequences. The academy is truly an astonishing place.
Did you miss the phrase "such as this" in Loki's statement?
I took it as being a clarification that the trespass is a misdemeanor. But you are syaign not all misdemeanors are create equatal with regards to revoking tenure? What's the difference between them, then?
I'll leave the legal issues to the lawyers, but from a policy position, I wouldn't fire them.
Not all crimes are created equal. I would absolutely fire a professor who was, say, embezzling or some other crime of moral turpitude.
But I don't view civil disobedience as a crime of moral turpitude. While a crime, it may even be praiseworthy (HT to Ambrose Bierce). Of course, it also may not be, depending on the details.
I think that some of the 60's sit-ins that lasted for weeks should have been stopped sooner, by arresting the participants, as in this case. But I wouldn't fire every professor or expel every student who gets arrested at a sit in. An apathetic public isn't good for democracy. I think a fair amount of tolerance for non-violent protest is a good thing.
Once windows get broken and cars torched ... that's different.
"crime of moral turpitude"
They are backing Hamas, I'd say that is plenty of moral turpitude.
I don't see anything in the OP about Hamas.
"Protesters from UChicago United for Palestine"
Don't be dense.
Your conflation is has some very bad implications.
As Brett pointed out, UC United for Palestine is affiliated with Students for Justice in Palestine. SJP is a Hamas affiliate.
Again, don't be dense.
That was not in the OP. Don’t pretend you knew that in your initial scalp hunting.
I would need to look into the connection itself. 2 degrees is already pretty dodgy, as is Brett’s suppositions.
No they're not (or at least you can't tell from the OP). It is possible to simultaneously believe that what Hamas did on October 7 was abhorrent AND ALSO believe that killing thousands of innocent Palestinians is also abhorrent. Those two views are not mutually exclusive.
Truthfully, if I were prime minister of Israel I have no idea what I'd do. Netanyahu is right that he can't just ignore terrorism, there has to be a response. On the other hand, systematically destroying Gaza and its inhabitants is not it. Israel, like the US after 9/11, has pretty much squandered much of the sympathy and good will it had following the terrorist attacks, and its actions are doing nothing to get it back. It needs to learn from our mistakes.
You'd have to do a little research or be familiar with the group, but UC United for Palestine is affiliated with Students for Justice in Palestine. Which absolutely IS an organization of Hamas sympathizers, and may just be a Hamas front.
You know, the folks who published that "toolkit" we were discussing last week?
Does "may just" signify an accusation with no supporting evidence? And what exactly is implied by "Hamas sympathizers?" Something illegal, or just expressing an opinion, as protecting by 1A?
"possible to simultaneously believe"
Perhaps, but these guys don't. As Brett pointed out, UC United for Palestine is affiliated with Students for Justice in Palestine. SJP members certainly don't care about dead Jews.
I hate to break it to you, but Israel is not taking these actions in order to get your sympathy and good will. It doesn't give a rat's ass about it. When we said 'Never agin' - we meant it.
That’s irrelevant to my primary point that it’s abhorrent to kill thousands of innocent civilians. I get that Israel doesn’t care. The question then is at what point does Israel become no better than Hamas.
There were over half a million German civilians killed in WWII from air raids alone- do you think the Allies became as abhorrent as the Nazis at some point? What’s the magic number?
I think the magic number is 'more than necessary'. In WWII bombing was wildly inaccurate. With today's more accurate weapons hopefully that number would be smaller.
What does this mean for the current war in Gaza? It's hard to say. I don't think any of us have enough info to be sure one way or the other.
Given that at least some civilian casualties are inevitable, I tend to blame whoever started the war. E.g. if an errant Ukrainian cruise missile hits an apartment building of civilians in Crimea, I assign some to most of the blame the Russians.
Oh come now. You are seriously arguing that ethics hasn't advanced any since 1945, a time when we had Jim Crow, a time when parents beat their kids with no legal consequences, a time when women and minorities were excluded from much of the economy, a time when people really were prosecuted for their political views? *That* is the era from which you are seeking moral guidance?
The carpet bombing of Dresden would absolutely be a war crime if it happened today, and should be. To the greatest extent possible, civilians should be spared. It is unfortunately impossible to have a war without some civilian casualties, which is why war should be a last resort. But the wholesale slaughter we're seeing? Nope, that crosses the line.
So let me ask you a "magic line" question. Suppose the only way to maintain Israeli security were to exterminate every Palestinian man, woman and child -- just like Joshua did with the Canaanites. In your opinion, would that cross a line?
What do women's rights have to do with the morality of killing Germans civilians ? Or corporal punishment? So you do think the Allies were as abhorrent as Nazis afer Dresden?
What's the magic number, sonny?
What they have to do with it is that they show that the standards of that era are not standards we follow today. If we don’t accept their morality where Jim Crow is concerned, why would we accept their morality on the bombing of Dresden?
As for a magic number - one more than was necessary to accomplish a legitimate goal.
Many things have changed since WWII, but not the ethics or morality of killing civilians. The Hague Convention of 1907 was in effect during that war, and fit orbade bombing of civilians and undefended cities. Third time: were the Allies as abbhorent as the Nazis?
The legitimate goal is stopping attacks on Israel and returning the hostages. As long as that's not happened, we clearly haven't killed more than needed.
Given that the Nazis marched 6 million people into death camps, of course they were more abhorrent than the Allies, but that doesn't excuse the mass murder of German civilians. By the standards of 2023 that was a war crime.
And lest you think your reductio ad absurdum argument works, I'll play along - if the only way to maintain Israeli security were to exterminate every Palestinian man, woman and child - meaning every Palestinian man, woman and child was actively launching rockets at Israeli citizens, shooting Israeli citizens, beheading their babies and rapign their women - then no, killing every one of those shooters, rapists and behaders would not cross any moral lines.
My hypothetical was not all Palestinian combatants. It was all Palestinian civilians. Respond or don’t, but if you do, please respond to the hypo I actually posed.
'if the only way to maintain Israeli security'
Shouldn't you start with the government and officials responsible for the massive security failure on Oct 7th, rather than letting them escalate a conflict which they have done nothing to resolve and kill thousands purely in order to delay and prevent accountability?
This isn't WW II. Invoking WW II is not a license to kill innocent civilians.
It's sort of the addendum to WWII, Hamas being an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which were pals with Hitler.
Think of it as a late developing secondary tumor derived from Nazism, because we failed to get rid of all the cancer cells.
It's still not WWII and not a license for killng civilians.
Invoking WWII shows that comparing numbers of people killed is not, and never was, a valid way to determine who is right and who is wrong, or what is permissible
A handy argument when your body count is orders of magnitude greater than that of the original attack.
Yup, just like it was in WWII, in Vietnam or in Iraq, When you mess with a much stronger force, you can expect your casualties will be higher. But suffering higher casualties doesn't make you right or moral.
Nor does inflicting them. In fact, inflicting them correlates with being wrong and immoral.
actually, no it doesn't, as the WWII example should have clarified for you.
Outlier, at best. An exception that should be a cautionary tale, not a corrupted heroic myth used to justify killing civilians.
'When we said ‘Never agin’ – we meant it.'
If that were true you would
a) support peace, because Israelis will die in any conflict.
b) not support the man who supported Hamas.
c) have a moral aversion to the mass killing of innocent men women and children by the thousand.
The thing that will never again happen is slaughtering us without retribution. We meant it, and you can now sit back and watch it unfold, and blame those who tried it.
No, I’ll blame the people who are acting as if killing civilians is a justifiable reprisal.
You can blame whomever you like. We don't care - we said "Never Again" - and we meant it.
Stop pretending to speak for all Jews. You certainly don't speak for me, at least while spouting that amoral bullshit. As for Israel, they need to for once consider whether their actions increase or decrease their long-term security. 75 years on, and they are still surrounded by parties who hate and want to destroy them. Will killing loads of Palestinian civilians in Gaza improve the situation? It shouldn't be about retribution, it should be about Israel's long-term existence and security.
No, you didn't say 'never again.' You said 'can't wait til I get my chance.'
I don't speak for you, but I am relaying in a reliable way, what the majority of Israelis believe. Israel has survived for 75 years - surrounded by parties who hate and want to destroy them, and it's not thanks to the advice of people like you, safely ensconced (for now) thousands of miles away but who see fit to preach about morality.
'it’s not thanks to the advice of people like you,'
Well, it's the advice of people like you that got Israel where it is today - engaging in brutal reprisals after an horrific attack by an enemy supported by an Israeli government which is now willing to kill thousands to avoid accountability.
As I wrote below, Israel has tried quite a few different things regrading Gaza – it left Gaza 18 years ago – and this is what it yielded – a terrorist entity hell bent on its destruction and armed to the teeth.
It was a mistake to believe Hams could be contained and supported, it was a mistake to believe, as many Western governments did, that there's some separation between Hamas's "military wing" and its "political wing", and Israel paid dearly for that mistake. But as a result, that won’t be the situation going forward.
'Israel has tried quite a few different things regrading Gaza'
One of which was to support Hamas.
'Israel paid dearly for that mistake'
Israel has paid dearly for the mistakes of Israeli hard-line right-wing extremists. I'd get rid of those guys if I were them.
Yes, it is bad that Hamas did both of those things.
Oh bullshit and that's a stupid comment even from you. That's like the man who beats his wife and kids and then says "you made me do it." Um, no, they didn't.
No, it's like the SWAT team that accidentally kills a hostage while trying to rescue them from kidnapper who murdered their parents. The end result is the same- a dead person, but only someone with absolutely no moral compass thinks the two actions are equivalent
Actually, in this case it's more like a SWAT team having a choice between destroying a single house versus destroying an entire city block, and killing people who had no connection whatsoever. If the SWAT team chooses the latter, it does not then get to say, "See what you made me do." In case you hadn't noticed, Hamas also uses the see what you made me do justification.
No its not. If Israel was trying to do more than necessary, Shifa hospital , sitting over the Hamas HQ, would not still be intact 5 weeks into the conflict
Israel has been largely doing the same thing for the last 75 years and it mostly hasn't worked, as evidenced by the events of October 7. So rather than say they'll keep doing it until it does work, maybe they should be asking if they've been using the wrong tactics all along.
The Carthaginian solution you seem comfortable with might work, if Israel were willing to be sufficiently bloody to execute it. And I will agree that the two sides are not morally equivalent; if Hamas had Israel's nuclear weapons, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem would have been leveled long ago. I do agree that Hamas has far bloodier hands than Israel does.
All that said, though, destroying the lives of thousands of innocents is deeply problematic morally.
Israel has actually tried quite a few different things - specifically around Gaza - it left Gaza 18 years ago - and this is what it yielded - a terrorist entity hell bent on its destruction and armed to the teeth. So no, that won't be the situation going forward.
Yes, people have been pointing out that Israeli policies have only been making the situation worse. When *they* say it, it's anti-semitism, though.
If a SWAT team kills a hostage that is regarged as a massive failure that puts the entire SWAT team under the microscope to ascertain culpability.
You are welcome to go to Gaza and investigate all the houses that were bombed.
And if I find something the IDF don't like, they'll call me Hamas and shoot me.
I doubt that. I didn't see anyone coming to kill Goldstone, or the heads of HRW.
I do encourage you to come to Gaza, though, and chat with your buddies at Hamas about their orgy of rape, mass murder and beheadings. Maybe you'll learn something,
Ok there’s your problem. His “buddies at Hamas”? As in, criticizing Israel’s tactics automatically makes one a friend to Hamas?
I disagree with the Israeli response on both moral and tactical grounds. I think killing civilians by the thousand is deeply immoral and I think in the long term it won’t work anyway. Doesn’t make either me or Nige a friend to Hamas.
'I didn’t see anyone coming to kill Goldstone, or the heads of HRW.'
What you see is anyone they do kill being labeled as, hmm, how to phrase it, oh yes, 'buddies with Hamas.'
No, that's not true either.
Israel quite readily admits that many of the civilians killed in the conflict are not members of Hamas. That is the unfortunate consequence of a terrorist entity embedding itself within a civilian population and waging war from behind their backs,
An unfortunate consequence of bombing civilians is dead civilians.
Several Israeli officials have said genocidal kill-'em-all shit, and they have, in fact, claimed that UN personnel they killed were in Hamas.
Right-wingers do not seem to subscribe to at least the second part.
I wouldn't fire them either. Some punishment may be appropriate. Make the two of them share a smaller office.
"Make the two of them share a smaller office."
8th amendment??
Teach more than one class a semester?
Bob made a funny.
Assign them to a new "Extension Campus" in Somalia
Well, they are not only trespassing personally but encouraging the students they are supposed to be teaching into illegal activity as well.
By comparison, I wouldn't fire or even sanction of professor for smoking pot on his/her personal time but most people would have a very different reaction to a teacher who pushed pot on his/her students (even if they were adult students). The corollary to the in loco parentis power that universities assert is that they and their employees have to actually behave like responsible parents.
Again, I find it fascinating that people find it so necessary to punish others without knowing any facts, but it unless you know of an article other than the one linked-to, or have facts other than the ones in the article, you're making things up.
That faculty members were there (or joined the protest) doesn't mean that they encouraged it. Faculty members can choose to protest for their own reasons, right or wrong. Unless they brought their class there, WHICH IS NOT A FACT, they were just doing their own individual dumb thing.
Which is not grounds for revoking tenure.
"Unless they brought their class there, ..."
I'm not sure I would fire them even then.
My algorithm for deciding speech cases is to pretend the speech at hand is speech I very much agree with (especially when, as in this case, it is speech I very much disagree with).
Let's say it's 12Sep2001 and President Ward Churchill of GrievanceU issues a statement that 'we at GU celebrate the deaths of all those little Eichmanns'. Hearing this, Professor Patriot says to his class 'let's go to Churchill's office and tell him what we think about his barbaric comments'. They do, they refuse to leave unless he listens to them, and he has them arrested as in this case.
I wouldn't fire Professor P for that, so I wouldn't fire a prof in the extant case for the same offense.
(n.b., if Prof. P makes a habit of this, to the detriment of teaching calculus or whatever, that might eventually justify firing)
I WOULD fire them — for being stupid.
They should be bright enough to realize that they will be seen as setting an example, even if they don’t, and were I the Faculty Senate, I wouldn't fight it because tenure is tenuous right now, and illegality is a cleaner line than some others that might be drawn.
And even though this is a private school, how much public money does it get? WHY should we subsidize these schmucks?
But it's worse than sexual harrassment. Would you rather your colleague proposition you or call for the genocide of your racial group? What's more threatening?
Cynically lying about people calling for genocide. That's worse.
Depends on the colleague.
It's also worse than sexual harassment because they were warned.
Imagine a professor who is warned not to do X and then still does it.
"Don't have jobs"??? in today's Academe they'll get promotions! I was going to make a Unabomber comment, but I'll pull out, with the USPS amazing any of his bombs made it to their targets (OK, Conspirators, did he use UPS? Fed Ex?)
Frank
There are two issues.
1. Sitting down and blocking stuff.
2. Protesting there at all.
The First Amendment would deal with the second, but not the first. Could they walk up and down the hall, or sit along the wall not blocking (maybe argue students do that all the time for studying or waiting or sleeping with no issues.)
The article above misses what happened next. The arrestees were taken to a nearby building, processed and released. They could have been back at it in an hour.
I'm speculating that the administration offices may have been closed after that. That also may be why they waited to boot them out - easier to show trespass after the building is closed to the public.
What should have been done with the arrestees, in your view?
I hate the Israeli-Palestinian issue for two reasons : First, both sides are oblivious to anything but the most blind short-term reasoning. You saw that before the war, with the empty kabuki-dance games the Israelis and Palestinians play to evade the fact that neither has a long-term tenable position. You see that in the war, with the useless brutal carnage of the Hamas attack and an Israeli response that lacks any real stategic plan.
But the main reason I hate the Israeli-Palestinian issue is my fellow Americans - Left and Right - who have adopted it as yet another Culture War playtoy. If the two combatants are always reliably blind-stupid, their American surrogates are blind-stupid-squared.
With that in mind, an observation : We've seen reporting and commentary on the Russia-Ukraine War now for a year & a half. Predictably, it follows events in the field, developments on the international front, and questions about U.S. support. You would expect the same on events in Gaza, but would be wrong. Ukraine isn't the Culture War playtoy for bored Americans that Israel-Palestine is. I've been doing an occasional survey over at the National Review, and posts about this student group or that obscure professor usually outnumber actual war reports by well over 2-1. You see the same thing here. Just more empty pointless games on an issue long dominated by them.
This.
While it isn’t the job of this blog to provide war reports, it is their job to discuss serious legal issues. I agree this blog discussing what every obscure student group or professor said or did about the war instead of anything resembling serious legal issues makes this blog just as bad as the news media.
Exactly.
It is indeed interesting that both sides lack a position which has long-term tenability. The relatively quieter and genuinely more sensible voices [for example, Ethiopia and, to a great degree, Saudi Arabia] are unheard due to the screaming of the zealots' even-more-zealous surrogates. The net result is backtracking: predictably (and as predicted), the overwhelming majority of the world is now offering Israel permission to maintain its 1967 borders.
It is also interesting that there has been a concerted effort to conceal events in the field. It is only today that we see verified (by two US newspapers, three US television networks, United Nations staff, International Red Cross staff, Doctors Without Borders, and two relatively neutral governments, among others) video footage of Israel brutally attacking unarmed schools and hospitals. I do not dispute that many have a vested interest in concealing such footage and do not dispute that even verified video footage doesn't show what took place before or after the time at which the footage was recorded -- but those constraints always apply. Again, the calmer voices [such as those in Australia, which questioned rather obviously (and poorly) concocted propaganda video released by Israel] seem to be asking the right questions.
The good news is that the Culture War Proxy Playtoy Wars have an economic cost in addition to the now-largely-ignored human cost: at some point, there simply won't be enough ammunition to provide to the proxy combatants and there won't be enough money to purchase more. Even if Israel deploys its weapons of mass destruction -- which remains a possibility -- the long-term tenability of its position still relies upon conventional ammunition supplied by others (in particular, its proxies in the US).
Pretending the miitary command headquarters and weapons storage facilities Hamas strategically located in hospitals etc. are “unarmed” is on par with pretending the deliberate and carefully planned Hamas massacre of Israeli civilians never happened.
The game’s up. People can see behind the curtain. You’re not fooling anyone anymore.
You seem to have a substantial volume of detailed information concerning Israeli targeting and Hamas operations and locations.
Or, perhaps, you are just an uninformed partisan bullshitter.
'People can see behind the curtain.'
Yeah, if you don't accept unquestioningly that every hospital is a Hamas hideout you're anti-semitic.
Excellent points, grb.
Yawn.
I'll wait for an actual trial and conviction and jail time before celebrating.
I notice when the left wing 'gets arrested', we never, ever hear about a trial.
I mean… this is from today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/marilyn-mosby-baltimore-guilty-perjury.html
Always safe to go after Dems when there is zero chance that a GOPer will be the replacement. See Bob Martinez.
Or perhaps she pissed off someone in the regime. Eric Adams started criticizing Biden's immigration policy and. what do you know, the FBI just seized his phones a part of an investigation. A coincidence, I'm sure.
Of course it is a coincidence. What else could it be?
That the investigation was ordered as payback of course.
Bob’s got his yarn and cork board out. ITS ALL CONNECTED!
'the FBI just seized his phones a part of an investigation.'
In an investigation that started a year ago? The paranoid mind gone feral.
Even more significant - meanwhile pro-Palestine protesters held a sit-in, in NY Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand's office. Video here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/17sadep/watch_hamas_supporters_occupy_office_of_ny_sen/
Any chance they will be sentenced to FOUR YEARS in prison, like the man who put his feet on Nancy Pelosi's desk on Jan 6?
You seem sympathetic to un-American assholes.
Why?
Are you a disaffected, worthless, ready-for-replacement clinger?
You seem sympathetic to anti-semitic assholes.
Why?
Are you a jealous, incel neckbeard?
The only element of your right-wing bullshit to which I responded was your bitchy whining about accountability for insurrectionists, clinger.
All your comments on this site, without exception, are angry and insulting. You must live a really miserable life. I hope you find a more productive path someday.
I just want equal justice for "insurrectionists" on both sides of the political aisle. A concept that apparently is entirely alien to you.
I wonder how many pro-Japanese sit-ins there were in January of 1942.
Good.
Next time, faster, and harder
HIStORICAL NOTE: during the Vietnam war protests of the late '60s, clever UChicago radicals decided they would occupy the Administration Building and the President's office, as had been done at other institutions.
The difference was that where leadership at many universities negotiated with the little dears, at UChicago, President Edward Levi (later Gerald Ford's Attorney General) had 'em arrested and expelled them from school.
Somewhere, Ed Levi is smiling. (Or as my fellow alumnus said, "Ed Levi's bow tie is spinning!)
Oh, wait! I just did some more research. Even better! He didn't have 'em arrested. He just ignored them. Let them occupy his office, just went on with his work elsewhere. Waited them out without dignifying their efforts, or giving them the oppression they so keenly wanted. Then he expelled them.
Good for the University of Chicago. Not only has it supported free speech on campus, but it is also enforcing proper limits of free speech and demonstration. By failing to endorse freedom of speech where is it appropriate and discipline protesters where it is not, too many universities have consigned real freedom of speech to the dustbin. Hopefully other colleges will sit up and take notice.