The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Can We Talk About Anti-Semitism and Israel Without "Both-Sidesism"?
In the immediate aftermath of the atrocities of October 7--even before any Israeli counter-attacks began--a common refrain from progressives was "Both-Sidesism." In the same breath, elites would mourn the tragedies in Israel and immediately turn to the plight of Palestinians. Often this pivot happened in the same sentence. Jews didn't even get a period. Maybe a comma. These statements have become more common over the past few weeks. At this point, both-sidesism is performance art--virtue signaling at its worst. How can you indicate a normal human reaction to the rape, decapitation, burning, kidnapping, and torture of innocent civilians, and at the same time, how can you subtly draw a false parallel between medieval barbarism with a modern military taking steps to minimize civilian casualties in difficult urban warfare?
Lawyers, in particular, are taught to view like things alike, and different things differently. But when it comes to Israel, basic logic goes out the window. (Sort of like the revised LSAT.) Dean Erwin Chemerinsky, to his credit, took a stand. He called out anti-semitism in no uncertain terms. Those calling to free Palestine from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea are advocating for an actual genocide of the Jewish people. (See David Bernstein's post from earlier today.) Protestors didn't shut down the Brooklyn Bridge to mourn the beheading of infants. They shut down the Brooklyn Bridge to call for the elimination of the Jewish state.
Why are so many students drawn to that worldview? For starters, I would wager that they are never taught about anti-semitism and Israel in the abstract. At most, they learn that Nazis were bad (the Holocaust), Catholics were bad (the Inquisition), Catholics were bad (the Crusades), and so on. Any instruction on Anti-Semitism focuses on how disfavored groups engaged in bad policies. The Jewish people are discussed, if at all, only through the lens of their oppressors. Generally CRT advocates argue that oppressed people can define their own narratives. Not us! Students are never taught about the timeless link between the Jewish people and the land of Israel. That link predates all other major world religions. The Jewish people were expelled from the Holy Land many times over the millennia. Next time you celebrate Indigenous Persons day, think of the Jews! In any objective pyramid of intersectionality that considers the full sweep of history, the Jewish people should be at the apex of Giza. But again, this history is not taught. Instead, students learn about a specific strand of Marxist ideology and colonialism that conveniently begins in 1948 or so.
Back to Dean Chemerinsky. Should he be so surprised, David Harsanyi and Glenn Reynolds ask? After all, last year student organizations at Berkeley banned "Zionist" (that is, Jewish) speakers. The writing has been on the wall for some time. In the past few weeks, I have talked to so many left-of-center colleagues who are shocked. I'm not. But more importantly, what comes next? Will this experience change anything? In other words, will the past three weeks affect approaches to hiring, curriculum development, DEI programming, and so on? Is the Manischewitz worth the squeeze? Or, will colleges continue with business as usual, and pretend that both sides really are equal here. Color me skeptical.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
I wonder whether the calculus of some left-wing groups is that while they disapprove of genocide, they approve of raising the minimum wage and reducing inequality, and if that means they have to make common cause with people who approve of genocide, they're willing to make that intellectual sacrifice.
Against genocide for some but not all.
The only people I’ve seen arguably advocating genocide are the ones suggesting that every man, woman and child in Gaza should be killed. (I think that technically wouldn’t constitute genocide, but it’s certainly arguable that it would.)
So the only people advocating genocide are advocating something that technically wouldn't constitute genocide??
Are you Vice President Common-Law Harris??
And sorry, when a bunch of Terrorists slaughter innocent women/children we murder the bastards, sorry if that offends you.
Frank "Hitler was a cute baby too"
What do you think "from the river to the sea" means?
When used in support of Palestine, it certainly means eradicating Israel. It doesn't necessarily mean killing all the Jews in the process. As nauseating as it is, I still feel like we should give people the benefit of the doubt that they're not advocating for genocide if they're not advocating for genocide.
There are some people on this very page who are advocating for genocide, I mean, we could talk about that.
You cannot be serious.
You cannot be serious.
Who cares what lip flappers mean ?
The question is what has occurred over the last number of decades ?
I checked since I can't stand the subject which was constant for endless years - the middle esat, the israel the wars, the endless jibber jabber as if it was the center of the universe forever ...
Well, I find out the murder death kill rates are 20 to 1, in israel's favor, over the last 5 decades.
So of course the biggest murdering war mongers scream endlessly when they are caught with their trousers around their ankles, and pretend there is no reason why a population went insane on them, and the idiot rubes agree, bark like walruses and scream civilization and contributions, pointing to genocide of lesser humans as the final solution. Only this time it's jews doing it to others.
Okay, go murder them all, but don't think for a second I buy your premise when you've been murdering them all for decades already,
When you mistreat 2.3 million people for decades, they will take it out on you, and you deserved it. It's not an excuse to keep murdering relentlessly, it is human nature the right and the big chest thumpers always demand we never ignore, except when it is convenient for them to scream terrorists.
20 to 1 kill ratio. So we'll take 20 of you and your family and friends, One can suffer a terroristic death, or all 20 of you can die in a US JDAM bombing shipped to the wonderful purveyors of love and peace and harmony with their fellow man. Which do you choose ?
WE ALL KNOW WHICH ONE IS WORSE. 20 WIPED OUT IS WAY WORSE, NO MATTER THE METHOD.
Please identify those you claim are "suggesting that every mean, woman and child in Gaza suggesting that every man, woman and child in Gaza should be killed." Can you do that or you are not to be taken seriously? And do focus on people of consequence rather than random a-holes, since they are fairly commonplace just about everywhere at one time or another.
Dr. Ed, in this very thread:
It’s Dr. Ed, admittedly, but since he’s apparently (and regrettably) chosen to align himself with our side…
They don't have to suggest it, it is the current decades of war history.
20 to 1 murder death kill ratio, in favor of the giant monsterous beast called zion.
TWENTY TO ONE.
I've never heard so much BS justification and whining except on wall street or the crazy GF's cellphone recordings.
Israel is committing genocide, while the israeli side, yours, screams and whines the other side wants to do it.
ROFLMAO YOU ARE LAUGHABLE IN YOUR TOTAL HYPOCRISY.
20 to 1 , that's the murder ratio for decades in that never ending war, in israel's favor. STOP WHINING.
The never ending war has ended half a dozen times. It's just that when the Israelis end it, the Palestinians pause for breath and start it up again.
You're welcome to argue, if you wish, that the Palestinians are justified in continually restarting the war, and will be so justified until the Jews are entirely driven from "Arab land" from the river to the sea - but even so the never ending war is on the Palestinians.
The reason why the Palestinians keep on restarting the war is that Israel is much too civilised to impose a Carthaginian peace each time they win. The Poles, meanwhile, have sucked up the loss of the eastern half of their country in a war they didn't start, and which cost them a quarter of their population. They knew perfectly well that if they attempted to resist the Soviets they'd have lost the other three quarters.
As to kill-ratios, no they don't determine who the bad guys are. As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, in WW2 the Germans killed about 40,000 British civilians in air raids, while the US and British killed about 400,000 German civilians in their air raids. That doesn't make the Germans the unfortunate persecuted aggressed against victims, and the Western Allies the wicked murdering aggressors. It is in fact the other way round.
In the 1990 Gulf War the kill ratio was about 100-1 in favor of the Coalition forces against Iraq. But it was Iraq that was the bad guy - it started it all by invading Kuwait.
Sometimes the aggressor comes off worse.
'The reason why the Palestinians keep on restarting the war is that Israel is much too civilised to impose a Carthaginian peace each time they win.'
That's not the reason, but 'tis a pity they're not more genocidal' is a helluva take.
'That doesn’t make the Germans the unfortunate persecuted aggressed against victims, and the Western Allies the wicked murdering aggressors.'
Oh I think when you're indiscriminately murdering tens of thousands of civilians in a single bombing raid you've complicated that picture quite a bit. You have this wish where if the bad guys are bad enough you have license to do what you want and still be seen as the good guys. *Shakespeare* was writing plays about how that's a trap.
NO
Can we talk about racism without talking about black crime?
Thought it was a joke at first, but it was a Black Hockey player who killed the White Hockey player in England (and not with a gun, with his "Assault Ice Skates")
Apparently not, since there's something unique about black crime that is different from white crime, but that thing has yet to be identified, except as, you know.
What a bizarre rant. Was there a point in there? I'd like to rebut something but I can't rebut silly string.
Ok I found something, how about this:
In the same breath, elites would mourn the tragedies in Israel and immediately turn to the plight of Palestinians.
This isn’t both-sidesism. It’s not trying to justify one with the other, or use one to distract from the other. It’s pointing out that both the major participants in this war are at fault.
You’re sad that “elites” haven’t spent enough time criticizing Hamas, but at least they have done so. Josh, will you ever get around to criticizing Israel’s role?
Says Randal, as he uses one side to justify the other.
Fuck off Nazi scum.
Point out where I used one side to justify the other.
It's you and Josh who are using one side to justify the other. When every criticism of Israel is met with "But Hamas! They're so evil!" -- that's both-sidesism. Constantly deflecting.
"It’s pointing out that both the major participants in this war are at fault."
Both sides are at fault for the rape and murder and kidnapping of women at the music festival? For be beheading and torture of babies?
You're disgusting.
Uh huh. Make up a quote and then call me disgusting, that works well.
Make up a quote? You’re lying. And you’re still disgusting.
Heh you're right. Ok how about:
No.
I guess it’s not surprising that a rabid antisemite like yourself wouldn’t be literate enough to understand what is a quote and what isn’t.
And you said “ It’s pointing out that both the major participants in this war are at fault” for “ the tragedies in Israel” that occurred on October 7th. If you’re going to spew antisemitic garbage you should own it.
"the tragedies in Israel" was a quote from Josh's OP. (Sorry, the blockquotes fell off in editing.)
So, no, changing my words through creative editing won't work.
In other words, here's you: "I guess it’s not surprising that" "Israel" is "at fault for the rape and murder and kidnapping of women."
means exactly what it says. It's a complete sentence. What are the major participants in this war at fault for? The war.
I’m aware that you were quoting the OP. But the topic was the atrocities on Oct 7, not the war in general.
That's just another both-sides deflection. We can never get past October 7th.
Someone like me: Today, Israel killed...
Someone like you: Ahem, what about the atrocities of Oct 7! Babies, women, music, rape! Condemn it again for the 100th time or you're a disgusting antisemite.
Wow. Talk about projection. You're literally defending the same deflection with respect to the "tragedies in Israel".
Nope. I've condemned the Oct 7 tragedies in Israel over and over. I'll do it again: condemn you, Hamas!
You, Josh, David, DMN, and many many others have yet to even acknowledge that Israel may have any responsibility for anything.
Wow, I can’t believe anyone might harbor any doubts about how sincerely you believe this.
And that was from three weeks ago. Yet here you still are.
" . . . both the major participants in this war are at fault."
Only one was created by the UN, representing the entire world.
The other is something that never existed. In 1948 the Arab nations surrounding Israel were obligated to take in the Arabs, not to create a thing called "Palestine".
Now you’re just making stuff up.
"Those calling to free Palestine from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea are advocating for an actual genocide of the Jewish people."
This is a lie, of course. Plenty of people calling for a single state between the river and the sea advocate for a multi-ethnic democracy with Jews and Arabs living together and sharing power. I personally have doubts that this would be workable, and would prefer that Israelis and Palestinians both have their own sovereign states. But to suggest that chanting "river to the sea" means advocating for mass murder or genocide of Jews is just bad-faith bullshit (though par for the course for the likes of Blackman).
Meanwhile, in the real world, there is one entity that has moved beyond chanting, and is actually formulating plans to conduct ethnic cleansing between the river and the sea. That entity is the government of Israel.
"Expel all Palestinians from Gaza, recommends Israeli gov’t ministry"
https://www.972mag.com/intelligence-ministry-gaza-population-transfer/
This is a lie, of course. Plenty of people calling for a single state between the river and the sea advocate for a multi-ethnic democracy with Jews and Arabs living together and sharing power
This is ludicrous. October 7th shows you what the Arab vision of a one-state solution would look like-- the violence would continue except there wouldn't even be a border to defend. Advocating for a single state is advocating for the extermination of every Israeli Jew. If you're pro-Holocaust, that's your right, but at least say it opently.
Absolutely despicable to suggest that the mainstream of Palestinian thought is in favor of extermination of all Israelis. Nothing but baseless justification for Israel's campaign of genocide.
Read Fatah's statement after the October 7 massacre and tell me they don't support it:
https://www.jns.org/fatah-calls-on-the-palestinian-public-to-attack-israel/
Recall that Hamas members literally murdered members of Fatah in Gaza in 2007 when it seized control and now they can nary say a mean word about Hamas.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/#:~:text=Hamas%20critique%20removed%20from%20Palestinians'%20Abbas%20comments%20on%20Israel%20attack,-Reuters&text=Oct%2015%20(Reuters)%20%2D%20The,group%20without%20providing%20an%20explanation
Days later, when foreign leaders demanded Abbas condemn the attack, he said Hamas shouldn't attack civilians and then immediately scrubbed all references to Hamas in his official statements.
The opinions of government do not always represent the opinions of some or even most of their citizens. The citizens of repressive governments are not responsible for that governments actions.
Too bad the mainstream of Palestinian thought is Despicable.
For those less in the know, this is a standard left wing trope: accuse anyone who points out the openly eliminationist philosophy of the Palestinians of racism to deflect from the fact that there's no disputing it.
Absolutely despicable to suggest that there is any such "campaign of genocide."
This is a lie, of course
Only a lie if you refuse to accept a consequence as inevitable. Suppose there were a Palestinian state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean. What in your opinion would happen to Jewish residents?
I think it's fair to say that the people calling for a one-state solution refuse to accept that consequence as inevitable.
It's not inevitable, but it's extremely likely.
Why is it fair to say that? Why is it not possible that some of the people regard that consequence as inevitable and desirable?
Because in general, the fair thing to do is not assume people are evil when there are other explanations available. I know this has gotten very very hard for all Americans to comprehend, but for the most part, your political enemies are not evil.
Hamas is literal evil. Unless you're Nazi scum, then Hamas is just a "political enemy". Fuck off Nazi scum.
Hamas is evil. College kids calling themselves "the resistance" are not.
Eh they can be evil too. Depending on how far they get into apologetics. But they’re also more redeemable.
You're basically going with "There are some very fine people on both sides" here.
Puh leaze. I never said anything like “very fine.” I said “not genocidal.” I also said “nauseating” (and worse on other threads).
I don’t like calling everyone racists, I don’t like calling everyone antisemites, I don’t like calling everyone censors, and I don’t like calling everyone genocidal. Or evil. Save those labels for when they’re essential.
Oh, I have no doubt that you dislike it when people get called antisemites.
This is the Volokh Conspiracy. Most of the people here embrace right-wing bigotry, including the proprietors.
I agree with "for the most part", but we're not merely differing on political issues here. If you support genocide, you're evil. Your evil may be of a soft and malleable kind, or ineffectual, but that is a mititigation, not a defence.
I agree with that. So Dr. Ed, XY, and Gozer are evil, no doubt about it.
It's like saying that somebody proposing to throw you off of a skyscraper refuses to accept as inevitable that you'll die when you hit the pavement. Sure, maybe they're clinically insane, but more realistically, they just don't want to admit they want you dead.
It depends on the context. If we were standing together on the edge of the skyscraper, I'd agree with you.
If the person threatening me was in prison, and I was standing atop a skyscraper wearing a parachute, you could say that the person threatening to throw me off the skyscraper was both a) blustering hyperbolically and b) not in fact threatening to kill me.
No, they'd still be threatening to kill you, they'd just not be in a position to carry out the threat.
As I said above, I prefer two separate states. But if there was a single state from river to sea, I would hope that Jewish and Arab residents would form some sort of power sharing agreement, integrate the military and security forces, and adopt a federalist system where the rights, and full access to the religious sites, of each group are protected. I think its plausible that a coalition party of moderate Jews and Arabs that promised to turn down the temperature on sectarianism and focus on economic well-being could actually do very well. But it's also possible that the time for reconciliation has passed - which is why, again, I think two states if probably the best route.
But if there was a single state from river to sea, I would hope that Jewish and Arab residents would form some sort of power sharing agreement, integrate the military and security forces, and adopt a federalist system where the rights, and full access to the religious sites, of each group are protected.
This is wonderful, we totally agree. Welcome to Israel.
Currently, that's Israel minus Gaza and the West Bank. But again, if that becomes Israel including Gaza and the West Bank, Jews will not comprise a majority.
Would either side accept a resolution that did not involve calling the shots based on a preferred flavor of religion?
Ostensible adults fighting over fairy tales -- superstition, nonsense -- is always silly, but it seems to be deeply ingrained throughout the relevant region. Who, if anyone, in that context has demonstrated an ability or inclination to refrain from a superstition-based government?
As commenter xy says, that's Israel. Your best bet of that happening is for Israel to take over the Gaza strip and West bank completely, and work hard at eventually integrating them into a pluralistic Israel.
Personally, I hope to win a billion dollars in the lottery. I'm being more realistic than you.
Israeli settlers have been driving Palestinians off their farms and lands on the West Bank for years now is that the sort of 'taking over' you propose?
"take over the Gaza strip and West bank completely, and work hard at eventually integrating them into a pluralistic Israel."
Fine with me. Call it Israel or Palestine, or something else completely. Couldn't care less about the name. Just end the apartheid, occupation, settler violence, and arbitrary mass imprisonment of Palestinians.
And repeal the Israeli "nations-state" law from 2018 which gave special status and rights to people of Jewish faith over all others.
Why?
I think a one-state solution is in fact the inevitable end result of the Israeli settlements policy. But I think it will take a very long time indeed before this materialises.
Same thing that happened to the Jewish residents in Ear-Ron
"there is one entity that has moved beyond chanting, and is actually formulating plans to conduct ethnic cleansing between the river and the sea. That entity is the government of Israel."
h, yes, Hamas chanted innocent people to death, including infants, and chanted some unwilling women, perfectly innocent stuff. And obviously it was pure random chance that they all did so together, not as a coordinated effort aimed at genocide. Just a big ol' love fest, plus some murder and rape. I mean chanting and chanting.
Somehow I don't think you read past the headline:
The existence of the document does not necessarily indicate that its recommendations are being considered by Israel’s defense establishment.
You seem to suffer from logic errors.
The Israeli Ministry of Intelligence is part of the government of Israel, so Aunty is correct.
The government of Israel is not part of Israel's defense establishment, so you are logically fallacious.
Not sure the value of the link you provided. So brutally biased that I do not buy anything they write.
"But more importantly, what comes next? "
As always, democrats will do what’s fashionable. If antisemitism wins and becomes fashionable, Dems will embrace it. If Israel is fashionable, Dems will side with Israel.
It seems like neither is winning the fashion contest right now, so Dems don’t know what to do.
A few people who have been fashion contestants in the past are opting out this time because they’re personally affected by the contest outcome. They’ll jump back in when they see their opportunity to be on top again and the victims are people who are not like them.
You obviously don't understand the Democrats. College radicals are not a major constituency, notwithstanding the fever dreams of the right.
The Democrats are unwaveringly pro-Israel.
But you know who is wavering? MAGA. The hard right. Obviously. What role for Israel is there in Making America Great Again? They're just reusing all the anti-Ukraine rhetoric against Israel now (as was totally predictable):
https://www.newsweek.com/mike-johnson-israel-support-maga-mad-1839043
America is America's problem and Israel is Israel's problem is not anti-Israel.
Sure it is. It's a backing away from our alliance and commitment to Israel.
If we already weren't a friend of Israel, you're right, ignoring Israel would just be the status quo. But to start ignoring Israel for the first time in decades, that's quite an anti-Israel shift.
So... where are all the accusations of latent antisemitism driving MAGAs turn against Israel?
No it isn’t.
It can be, though, depending on actual motivation.
You obviously don't understand Liberal Socialism. Far Left Democrats don't have to be in the majority. Their "fellow travelers" in the media will make it look that way. Then when those on the "Far Left" are called out, they will hide behind saying that they are not the majority.
Hamas uses the same "fellow travelers" in the media to mislead people to sway public opinion. They will have their people, wearing civilian clothes, open fire on Israeli troops. The Israelis will return file, killing or wounding Hamas "fighters". The media will be allowed to see dead people in civilian clothing or people in civilian clothing on a stretcher or being carried to a "hospital". Then they will report on the Israelis murdering civilians. Hamas learned their lessons from the PLO, who were originally trained and financed by the Soviets.
The Democrats are unwaveringly pro-Israel.
You should be involuntarily committed if you are so batshit crazy as to believe this, in the face of all evidence to the contrary.
All the Democrats, including the entirety of the House Progressive Caucus, are unwaveringly pro-Israel?
Gee, who knew? The Squad and a number of their fellow D travelers seem not to have gotten the memo.
There's a lot of crossover between MAGA and Evangelical Christians, who see Israel's future as a key piece of their Armageddon and second coming prophesies.
Evangelicals are quite aware that the return of Jesus is on His schedule, not humanity's, and humanity is unable to speed up that process whatsoever.
Ben,stick a sock in it. Democrats ended Jim Crow even though doing so was extremely unpopular in Dixie and lost them the South. Democrats support gun control even though they lose elections over it. States that used to be purple or even light blue are now bright red because Democrats tried giving them health care. Disagree with those policies if you like but the idea that Democrats are just weather vanes who turn whichever way the wind is blowing is stupid even for you.
+1
+2
-3, 91 DemoKKKrats voted against the Civil Rights act of 1964, only 35 Repubiclowns did. Peddle that bullshit somewhere else
Frank, what percent of Democrats voted for it? (Hint: a more than comfortable majority). What was the party of the president that got Congress to pass it in the first place?
And here’s a better question: given a chance, which Party today would be most like to repeal it?
Your DemoKKKrat schtick is just flat out dishonest, as are you.
California politicians --- you know, largely Democrats, tried to repeal California's civil rights act.
Democrats have tried to circumvent civil rights law for a wide array of issues, not least of which is affirmative action.
Tried to repeal -- someone proposed it but it didn't have any real support in the Democratic party or it would have passed. Try again.
Republicans have tried to repeal similar legislation...when?
And where?
'As always, democrats will do what’s fashionable.'
Just look at that, as right-wingers try once again to ride a wave of outrage and horror into more war, killing and destuction and anyone who disagrees is an anti-semite. (Used to be anti-American.)
Ben_ : "As always, democrats will do what’s fashionable"
It's always funny seeing a Right-winger pretend he has principles. After all, today's Right is completely about entertainment. They have carney-barker hucksters as politicians, such as Trump, DeSantis, Greene and Gaetz. Their issues are either non-existent (CRT in the public schools anyone?) or hysterically overwrought (like their frenzied jihad against the tiny little number of trans folk).
It's all entertainment product, marketed by their performer politicians to an eager consumer base - who grew up on talk radio and Fox News and long ago abandoned policy in favor of WWE-style cartoon thrills.
Which brings us to the war between Israel and Hamas. A quick count today at the National Review website showed Culture-War Own-the-Libs stories about this college student protester or that obscure politician outnumbered actual accounts of the fighting by well over 2X. Of course the same is true here.
Even with this horrible bloody conflict, the Right's insatiable need to be spoon-fed entertainment holds sway.....
I think a lot of it is the instinctive "America bad" mentality that's common among the left. America is bad, America is Israel's closest ally, therefore Israel is bad, therefore dead Israelis is good. In some cases it might start with Jews bad-- Jews are bad, Israel is a Jewish state, America is Israel's closest ally, therefore America is bad and also therefore dead Israelis are good. They then work backwards to make common cause with Hamas.
They also come up with ludicrous "only for Israel" rules. A month ago, I never would have seriously thought anybody would propose that, in war, a belligerent must generate electricity and donate it to the enemy. And yet that's what's being demanded of Israel. This is a real masks off moment.
Gaza remains an occupied territory. Israel says otherwise, but no one buys it, not even themselves, which is why they still provide the absolute minimum for the population of Gaza over whom they're responsible.
Gaza is disputed territory, not occupied territory, to be precise. There is a legal difference, under international law. That will become more apparent after the war, and a topic of much discussion.
Disputed??? You just made that up entirely. Disputed by who? Is this some new hot-potato form of dispute unique to Gaza?
Egypt: No, Israel beat us fair and square. It's theirs!
Israel: Not ours, we left in 2005!
UN: You broke it you bought it Israel.
Palestinian Authority: Don't look at us.
Hamas: Simple! It's ours!
Everyone: You aren't a thing.
Commenter_XY: I guess it's "disputed territory."
Israel has absolutely no responsibility to Gaza, starting the day the occupation ended twenty years ago. As a means to an end, it provided a lot of charity to Gaza, because their own government refuses to take care of them. The reward for that charity was a massacre. Obviously the charity spigot is off and a new status quo can be determined after Gaza unconditionally surrenders. The military action is a good start, but it's the secondary effects that are going to help win this war. We are probably a few weeks away from General Cholera making significant inroads on the enemy. Failing that, General Summer is going to help out quite a bit if this goes on long enough. Really hope Hamas enjoys fighting in June with no power and no water.
You've learned your Israeli propaganda well.
They wanted Independence, be Independent. And maybe not try to murder the big bully living next door to you
They actually have been providing several times what was required by their agreement with Hamas, and continued to long after the agreement expired. If Hamas held up their end instead of embezzling all their aid, they'd have more than enough fresh, clean water. But they instead assumed the world would force Israel to support their people until they finally got the chance to kill all the Jews, after which presumably God would provide the water.
They have more than sufficient supplies.
They are just using it to attack Israel and not to, you know, support their people.
It's not just AmeriKKKa bad, but they are pissed that we won the Cold War. They wanted the Soviets to win it....
Israel was an ally during the cold war and we owe Israel for that -- Stalin thought that Israel would go with him, Israel is largely socialist, but it went with us and we owe them for that.
Conversely, while they were neither an effective ally to either Hitler or Stalin, the Palestinians were on the other side of that war, and like the American Indians after the War of 1812, they picked the wrong side and it sucks to be them.
The American left likes modern America, and where America is headed.
The American right pines for obsolete (roundly bigoted, unearned privilege) America, and for "good old days" that never existed.
And arguing that a state should be beholden to any single religion is un-American. Get better.
"Where Amurica is Headed"?
A congress full of Mullah Omar, Priapism Slap-a-jap-a-pals, Akeem the Bad Dream Jefferson??
We're not all pussies like Chucky Schumer, Little Jamie Raskin-Van-Zant. We'll see what happens after the next Terrorist attack in the US, they don't want to turn us into Mini-Iran, they want the whole ball game.
Frank
Prof. Volokh censored (removed) the term "p_ssies" when it was used to describe conservatives at this blog.
Let's see whether he applies that standard in a nonpartisan manner.
Spoiler: Don't hold your breath.
And arguing that a state should be beholden to any single religion is un-American. Get better.
You mean as it is in so many predominantly Muslim states, but not in Israel?
Not in Israel?
When did Israel begin to recognize secular marriage, or stop subsidizing those indolent religious kooks who all subscribe to the same flavor of superstition?
Why are some people so incapable of believing that it is possible to care about all humans? It's horrible what Hamas did...but its also horrible to see Gazans suffer and die. Even if you think its "necessary" for this number of casualties to be inflicted to defeat Hamas, you can still say: "this is bad and shouldn't be happening as a normative matter. I am against kids dying!" But people still can't say this. Some things are bad no matter how righteous the cause is, and it is okay to acknowledge this. The failure to acknowledge or worse, the scoffing at it as here, leads to a dark but pretty apparent inference: some people actually want mass death in Gaza and are happy about it.
As always: "To an asshole, all virtue looks like virtue signaling."
What if you didn’t put on any performances at all?
See that's the thing: for a lot of people virtue isn't performance...it's virtue. The people who scoff at that notion or think it is performative because they believe no one is genuinely or sincere in their moral beliefs tend to be assholes.
Being quiet and not making everything about yourself is impossible for some to understand.
This is really quite something coming from you.
I want mass death to Gaza if that's what it takes.
They need to understand that killing Israelis is not acceptable and if it takes killing every last one of them, so be it.
Children dig tunnels -- they are not combatants?
There is a real need to KILL THEM ALL....
^ Median Israeli voter.
He's actually on the liberal end, I'm in the "Moderate" section
Basically true, actually. The main divide in Israeli society on the Palestinian question seems to be between those who see them as cockroaches to be quickly exterminated (i.e. identitarian fascists like Netanyahu) and those who see them as snakes, to be handled with care before killing (i.e. militarists like Gantz). Your choices are George Wallace or Curtis LeMay. No significant faction sees Palestinians as human beings. Truly a sick society.
How did your Ancestors view the Confederates?
But either way, no one is going to do anything different depending on your input.
America is going to stop supporting Israel's right-wing belligerence, in part because of my input, unless Israel changes course severely and rapidly.
This seems to bother clingers.
Tough.
The dumbasses who can't see this one coming are the losers who still can't believe America decided to stop treating gays, Blacks, Muslims, women, immigrants, Jews, Hispanics, Asians, and transgender people like shit.
The true dumbass hasn't learned from history and doesn't understand that America in the past stopped treating gays, Blacks, Muslims, women, immigrants, Jews, Hispanics, Asians, and transgender people like shit -- and THEN STARTED TREATING THEM EVEN WORSE THAN BEFORE.
History repeats itself. Get ready....
What?
Google "boston marriage."
Google "Sodomy laws"
Hm so that's three by my count. And zero on the other side.
Objectively, the Palestinians are at much more risk of genocide than the Israelis are. Not because of Ed here, but because Israel has the inclination and capability.
If Israel has the capability, then by definition it doesn't have the inclination, or it would've happened.
False. It also has constraints.
Similarly, children (of all ages) believe fairy tales are true.
But maybe not all children. Perhaps just the gullible children.
This is just deranged.
If WHAT is what it takes? Peace in our time? A cease fire? Adequate subjective "justice"? The ends can justify a lot of things when they are permanently out of reach.
Let's try that in American language.
Children play on Native American burial grounds. Are they not combatants? No? Gosh, how can you possibly tell the difference?
Josh's insists that speakers' condemnations of antisemitism or the Hamas atrocities are undercut if they also recognize the humanity or suffering of Palestinians. This position is is odd given Josh's praise for the Chemerinsky piece. Chemerinsky demonstrates the nuance of which Josh is incapable.
Chemerinsky does, correctly, speak up in support of Jewish students – stating, “There has been enough silence and enough tolerance of antisemitism on college campuses. I call on my fellow university administrators to speak out and denounce the celebrations of Hamas and the blatant antisemitism that is being voiced.”
However, Chemerinsky also says, “To be clear, I — and I hope all of us — mourn the loss of life in Israel and in Gaza. There is surely room in our hearts to feel compassion for all who are in danger and all who have lost loved ones. But it is simply wrong to confuse condemning antisemitism with ignoring the plight of the Palestinians.”
"some people actually want mass death in Gaza"
Are you going to apologize for believing Hamas propaganda about the "bomb" "destroying" the hospital and killing "500" a couple of weeks back?
Yes. I jumped the gun. I apologize. And indeed, I am grateful people are alive. (Can you say the same?)
Now you? When are you going to apologize for your horribleness or answer pointed questions?
I'm not "horrible".
Never.
Bob, you can’t even acknowledge that you feel bad about dead Gazan kids. That’s horrible. I remember a time where I described the injuries to a child caused by a cop in a qualified immunity case. You said: “need a tissue.” That’s horrible. When reminded about this you laugh it off and think it’s funny. You are proud of it. Oh and let’s not forget your apologetics for human rights abuses in Latin America because “communism” or your lack of belief in fair trials. You also disdain for legal ethics, and just generally shitty personality.
Think about it: someone who can’t even be shamed into typing the words “I feel bad” about a dead kid while anonymous generally must be a horrible person. It’s either 1) because they’re scared to drop the internet tough guy act and show empathy, or 2) they actually believe their darkest thoughts and just aren’t ready to type out for some reason. Both are horrible and more than a little bit pathetic.
you didn't realize it was a Ham-Ass Rocket??
what a fucking dumb shit, I'd be embarrassed to show my face after thinking something that fucking stupid.
Why apologize? There's been plenty of "mass death" attributable to Israel since, including in the last couple of days.
Even if you think its “necessary” for this number of casualties to be inflicted to defeat Hamas, you can still say: “this is bad and shouldn’t be happening as a normative matter. I am against kids dying!” But people still can’t say this.
Because it's mere masturbation. Obviously "kids dying" is a bad thing - in the same sense the cost of electricity is a bad thing - it would be nicer if electric power was free. But it isn't.
“this is bad and shouldn’t be happening as a normative matter.
There's simply no logical connection between the first three words and the rest of the sentence.
The question is whether the costs (or bads) of electricity, or kids deaths, justify the benefits (or goods) - electric power, or the incapacitation of Hamas. "This shouldn't be happening" is only approriate if you conclude that the benefits of incapacitating Hamas are less than the costs - including dead and wounded civilians.
The atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed something like 200,000 people, most of them civilians. That was bad. But it was entirely justified. It brought the war to a rapid conclusion, instead of having it drag out - with appalling casualties not just in Japan but even more in China and other Japanese-occupied territory, So "this shouldn't have happened" would be a masturbatory response. It absolutely should have happened.
For this reason I disagree with Blackman's post. Both-sideism in this context raises the morally necessary question of the costs and benefits of a course of action. The extent of the Israeli action would be outrageously immoral if Palestinians did no more than throw rocks across the border. You have to look at both sides to come to a morally responsible view on the actions taken by each side.
Which does not, of course, simply amount to a body count on each side. In WW2, the Allies killed roughly ten times as many German civilians in air raids as the Germans killed British civilians with their air raids. That does not, ipso facto, make the Allied air raids morally indefensible.
“Because it’s mere masturbation.”
Maybe if you’re an asshole.
Not a very useful or even thoughtful response.
Okay, nice words might not have sounded as harsh: "operationally irrelevant."
Yeah, well answer me this - why are they all invoking the second world war to justify their bloodlust? Why not Gulf Wars One and Two? Why not Afghanistan? Fuck it why not Syria and Lybia and Bosnia? At least some of those wars they were loud and rabid cheerleaders for and anyone who opposed was a traitor and terrorist-lover. What examples have these people learned from those more comparable more modern conflicts that they have to go back to a mid-century mechanised war between industrialised nations that killed millions?
1) Why are you angry as a response?
2) Why should I talk about WWII? I never said anything about it.
3) What in the world are you talking about when you say "mid-century mechanised war "?
4) Why do you call the urging to eradicate Hamas bloodlust?
5) Why don't you characterize Hamas as bloated with bloodlust?
1) Sometimes the inane sarcasm isn't enough.
2) Not what I asked.
3) You're not that dumb.
4) Because they don't care how many people they kill to do it, that it probably won't work and that it will create the conditions for even worse than Hamas, and they're the same people who did it all before. They don't care about any of that, they just seem to like the bombs killing the people.
5) Why, is it in dispute here?
I was not being sarcastic.
Don't ask me or expect me to answer for your arguments with other people, especially when you do so to deflect me comment about your posts.
Well, of course you have no answers.
What examples have these people learned from those more comparable more modern conflicts
Trouble is, you know squat about military technology and tactics. There's a vast difference between fighting a war in a desert and fighting a war in a built up area. The technology for fighting the former has moved on a lot. The latter not so much. We will see whether the Israeli innovations of using robots to deal with tunnels works. But even if it does it'll reduce Israeli casualties not Palestinian casualties.
that they have to go back to a mid-century mechanised war between industrialised nations that killed millions?
Because that's the last time a war was conducted in built up areas. And the lesson is - there's no way to do it without civilian casualties, unless the civilians leave.
In short you're being morally unserious. Which is forgiveable in a teenager.
PS while you're poo-pooing WW2 comparisons, note that Hamas killed more Israelis on October 7 than the Allies killed Germans on D Day. And the Germans were combatants.
'Trouble is, you know squat about military technology and tactics.'
No, that's not the trouble. The trouble is these wars are stupid, deadly, bloody, and only ever make everything worse.
'Because that’s the last time a war was conducted in built up areas.'
News to Iraq, twice, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Ukraine, Bosnia, Syria, Lybia - all countries without built-up areas, how weird.
'note that Hamas killed more Israelis on October 7 than the Allies killed Germans on D Day.'
German casualties on D-Day are estimated between 4,000 and 9,000. Which makes the comparison both arbitrary and wrong.
Nige doesn’t know the difference between “killed” and “casualties”. Which should surprise no one since, as I mentioned, he knows nothing about military affairs generally.
Either way, the death toll of Gazans is way beyond either now. Or are such things distasteful to military 'experts?'
Your numbers are based on what? The same Gaza Health Ministry that has overstated those numbers for years on end?
More Japanese died in World War II than Americans. Does not make the USA wrong or cruel in how they executed the war.
Where's your proof they're overstated?
'Does not make the USA wrong or cruel in how they executed the war.'
Doesn't NOT make them wrong or cruel either.
I can't speak for others, but I generally invoke WW2 because it's the last example of a war where it's essentially undisputed (especially left-of-center) who were the bad guys, and that it wasn't a war of choice for the U.S. If I brought up our actions in any of the other ones you cite, there would be those left-of-center who'd be saying that these wars were actually the U.S.'s fault and therefore our actions weren't justified. By using a war in which everyone left of Pat Buchanan agrees that U.S. involvement was justified and that defeating the Nazis was crucial, we get to skip all of that preliminary stuff and focus on the question of whether such actions are ever justified.
I bet if they introduced a congressional resolution condemning the Nazis, Thomas Massie would vote against it. JFC...
https://www.businessinsider.com/which-lawmakers-voted-against-israel-resolution-hamas-attacks-progressives-2023-10
'where it’s essentially undisputed (especially left-of-center) who were the bad guys,'
So, a kind of nostalgia for an illusion of a more simple time, even though it was the worst war the world has ever known, avoiding the grim reality of how messy and catastrophic more apposite modern wars have been because you want to believe that killing thousands of innocent people is justified and that everything will be sorted out by more and more bombs.
'Obviously “kids dying” is a bad thing – in the same sense the cost of electricity is a bad thing –'
For fuuuuuuuck's sake.
.
I wish you could write off this sort of genocide apologia as merely the ramblings of a sick individual, but sadly this is basically in line with the public statements from everyone in the highest levels of the Israeli government. Utterly demonic stuff that, in a just world, would put them inside a cell at the Hague. But we know that will never happen.
You're starting to recognize why so many us recoil from hearing "Obviously 'Israeli kids being murdered' is a bad thing – in the same sense Netanyahu's settlement policy is a bad thing –"
The atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed something like 200,000 people, most of them civilians. That was bad. But it was entirely justified.
This is the kind of argument that Israeli politicians are making, but it only really shows the monstrous depravity of the people making it. Hamas calls for the destruction of the Israeli state. Some Israelis are calling for a Hiroshima-level event in Gaza. If that belief were patent to all Americans – and not hidden away from western media consumers – the support for Israel would evaporate.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not legitimate military targets. The fact that bombing them helped to conclude the war with Japan does not “justify” them. That is the whole point of calling something a “war crime.” War crimes often are effective. That is why warring nations engage in them. If you will “justify” any action in war based solely on whether it leads to victory, or prevent greater casualties, then any war crime whatsoever can find its “justification.” Applying this kind of CBA, considered solely in terms of the benefit to the “just winner” of a war, just dismisses the law of war altogether.
SimonP : "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not legitimate military targets"
At the start of WWII, light indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets was discussed as a war crime. Over sixty million dead later, governments designed single bombing attacks to incinerate sixteen square miles of a city's center and kill 100,000 of its civilians. This was before the decision to use atomic weapons.
There were "rules of war" before and after WWII, however much they were bent, broken or ignored. The oceans of blood in that conflict washed them all away, letting total madness held sway. No one should look to World War II as guide to what is or isn't a war crime.
the morally necessary question of the costs and benefits of a course of action.
Ethics isn't a utility-maximizing exercise.
It is for utilitarians!
Mostly those folks show up as motivated comic book supervillains these days.
In any moral system, you have to weigh costs and benefits if your absolute moral rules do not provide a clear answer.
Is it always and necessarily morally wrong to risk causing civilian casualties ? If so, then fine. Die with a clear conscience. But if not, you need to break the tie.
In any moral system, you have to weigh costs and benefits if your absolute moral rules do not provide a clear answer.
This is not true. There are lots of ways to make a decision than quantifying it.
You also don’t have a strong understanding how human rights can play. Rights need not be absolute and sacrosanct diodes of ‘on’ and ‘off’ They were in the original formulation a question of government policy being legitimate and illegitimate. But as you can see in our own jurisprudence their contours are hardly so bright a line, nor is their effect so ‘yes’ or ‘no.’
If you have the time, I found this really eye-opening and interesting:
https://oyc.yale.edu/political-science/plsc-118/lecture-1
Human rights, government policy, legitimate and illegitimate belong to the world of law. We are not talking about how to arrive at a legal conclusion, but at a moral conclusion. Law and morals have, or at least should have, a reasonably friendly relationship, but they are not the same thing.
This touches on our earlier discussion on "the totality of the circumstances." This totality is wholly inappropriate for a judge dispensing legal judgements, directing the power of the state. It gives the judge way too much discretion.
But as far as morality is concerned, we are our own judge and we bind ourselves. There is no objection to our weighing moral pros and cons because we are individuals forming our own moral judgements, not judges applying the law. Certainly we may try to persuade others to follow our precepts, and we may criticise thir precepts, but we have no power to insist.
LTG,
I agree with you; people should care about all human suffering. But eliminating all suffering is beyond human capabilities.
In this case, we know that some people who have no complicity whatsoever with Hamas have died and will die today and tomorrow.
And then what? That is the difficulty with the calls for an indefinite ceasefire: and then what? We "know" that any rationale for Israel to resume the eradication of Hamas will never satisfy those calling for a ceasefire.
And then what? Israel would have to accept living along side murders, rapist, terrorist and those who would drive very Israeli into the sea.
Consequently the answer to the calls is "This is the time for war."
'Consequently the answer to the calls is “This is the time for war.”'
Which is amazing since your argument for this consists of a complete failure to contemplate an alternative.
Friend, the failure is yours.
No, the failure was Netanyahu's. And yet like George W Bush, the man whose utter failure allowed a catastriphic atrocity to occur to the people under his protection is allowed to continue as if he has anyone's best interest at heart beyond covering up that failure with patriotic bluster and strongman militarism.
Hamas has already said they’ll do 10/7-style attacks again.
There is not an alternative.
If it's another attack like that you're worried about, I'd concentrate on how the first attack managed to succeed and where Israeli security failed, you could even go back further and look at what exactly created the conditions for such an attack to occur, but Netanyahu would rather not and you prefer your proxy holy war.
How would you ensure that Hamas was never again capable of inflicting barbarities if they are not now completely vanquished once and for all? Or are you OK with letting them go ahead in pursuit of its founding goal of wiping out the Jewish state of Irael?
Good question! Start with firing anyone who can't come up with a way of doing it without killing thousands of innocent civilians, and hiring people who can.
We have heard not a single suggestion from you that is not the de facto equivalent of Israel letting Hamas live on to kill Jews once again.
Your self-righteous attitude fools no one.
You have decided that a buncha civilian casualties is needed to white out Hamas.
I’m not sure that’s true, or indeed will get you to that goal at all.
I’m no counter insurgency expert but neither are you.
However the Israelis are counter insurgency experts and if they had thought of a way of getting rid of Hamas without causing any civilian casualties, they'd have done it long ago.
There is no such way.
I like Israel, but I'm sure their current government can be trusted to seek that goal.
Israeli’s counter-insurgency tactics for the past ten years have consisted of causing more destuction and killing more Palestinians than Hamas do with their strikes, and just generally killing way more Palestinians than Hamas kill Israelis. Now everyone’s puzzled as to how such amazingly good counter-insurgency tactics let Hamas get bold enough and strong enough to launch the Oct 7th atrocity.
Another gross exaggeration S_0.
I did not decide that.
The IDF and government of Israel did. And they know a lot about the topic and their citizens are the targets of the genocidal attacks (since you seemed to make an appeal to authority).
Since Gazans are the ones being slaughtered at the moment and only a complete idiot would think that will make Israelis safer I'm not hearing anything from you, either.
Here’s the thing: there is no solution. Period, full stop. There is a certain number of Arabs who won’t accept a Middle East that has any Jews, and there are a certain number of Jews who won’t tolerate legal equality for Arabs. Reasonable people could settle this in about five minutes but that’s not whose calling the shots over there.
Public moralizing solves everything. All anyone needs to do is win the argument on who is worse and then the good guys will automatically win because they are on the right side of history. Obama taught us this.
Oh surely we learned all we need to know about using a terrorist atrocity to support terrible foreign policy decisions by shutting down criticism with accusations of disloyalty and supporting terorists, well before Obama.
Was it a terrible policy decision for us to go to war with Japan in the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor or to go to war with Germany after Hitler embarked on his goal of world conquest?
Weird how more recent examples somehow fail to attain object permanence in the besotted brains of people who were mighty loud about them at the time, though I recall the Pearl Harbor example was passionately invoked then, too.
Once again you fail to answer the question because you aren't smart enough or are not honest enough. Now, man up and answer neurodocs direct question.
Why? Its a stupid fucking question, a dishonest dodge of a question, a nostalgia trip of a question that has nothing to do with modern conflict in the ME. And they parroted the exact same question before Afghanistan and Iraq. They claimed those were clear-cut wars of good vs evil too! Bollocks.
There is a certain number of Arabs who won’t accept a Middle East that has any Jews, and there are a certain number of Jews who won’t tolerate legal equality for Arabs
Which one of those vastly outnumbers the other, and is far worse than the other?
"Legal equality" versus "kill the Jews". Hmmm. One of those things wouldn't be so hard to come by if the other wasn't such a widely held belief.
Mostly it has been "kill the Jews" vs. "kill the Arabs." Legal equality and other high-minded sentiments have not been a genuine part of the discussion for a long time.
Not only that but denying legal equality is an out and out lie as applied to Israel. So both horrible states only apply to the Palestinian people and arabs.
You seem misinformed.
I sense it's more lying than ignorance.
There are enough people in Israel who tolerate legal equality for Arabs to have enacted legal equality for Arabs under Israeli law. It's Palestinians they don't give a shit about, not Israeli Arabs.
The solution is for Palestinian leaders to agree to an unfair land swap deal. The deal will have to be unfair because the Palestinians have little to no negotiating power. The alternative is continued and gradual Israeli expansion.
Two points :
1. There is no “legal equality” for Arab citizens of Israel. You can point to guarantees under Israel’s declaration of independence, but that equality is not explicitly enshrined in Israel’s Basic Laws, the closest thing it has to a constitution. Besides, United States history shows how hollow written protections can be in the face of endemic nationwide persecution. You only need to look at the maze of laws controlling how Arab Israelis are blocked from buying land, living wherever they want, or building on land they own to see systematic and purposed discrimination. There isn’t a single aspect of Israeli life where state power isn’t weighted towards its Jewish over Arab citizens. No one believes the Israeli government offers its Arab citizens the same police protection, economic opportunity, or state investment as it does its favored citizens. We’re all used to analyzing & debating the nuances of discriminations in this country. In Israel, discrimination is obvious, blatant, and pervasive.
2. If the alternative is “continued and gradual Israeli expansion”, then the question is expansion to where? Right now, Israel controls large Palestinian populations that have no national rights. The West Bank is run by Israel despite the toothless faux-government PA. Israeli settlements have chewed-up its territory, Israel controls its economy, infrastructure, borders, and the security of 80% of its territory. And Gaza has been a sealed-off prison for years.
And therein lies the problem: Any Israeli “expansion” is into territory it already manages despite denying citizenship to all people living there. Any “expansion” just makes Israeli’s apartheid rule more blazingly clear. Israel doesn’t want to “expand” if that destroys the tiny fig leaf illusion of fake Palestine rule. The Palestinian Authority was supposed to be a limited interim measure toward establishing two states, but that was thirty years ago. Even as a pretense, it’s well beyond its self life. Israeli doesn’t want to “rule” the Palestinians (though it already does) because that just opens the taboo issue of Israeli citizenship. So how can it expand?
There’s no coherent answer to this. Israeli’s rulers are almost as blind-stupid as its toxic opponents. The current “thinking” is they can continue to destroy the last vestiges of a two-state solution and everyone will ignore the fact they control five million Palestinians with no citizenship rights. I don’t think that’s realistic. I don’t think there’s a long-term viable way forward for Israel that way.
Only so long as mainstream America is willing to provide the military, political, and economic skirts Israel has been operating behind.
When that ends, Israel will likely be contracting rather than expanding.
"Tensions Rise In Middle East As One Side Wants To Kill Jews And The Other Side Are Jews Who Don't Want To Die And Neither Will Compromise"
You should say that "people getting hurt is bad" so you don’t lose points though. Keep those point totals up.
We are who we pretend to be. If you can’t pretend to care when it doesn’t even directly affect you then imagine how horrible you must be when the stakes are more direct.
I think you’re going to have the most points.
Israel has a difficult problem to deal with. I don’t think they need my input.
The opposite side would also have a difficult problem to deal with if they were ever given credit for being people with agency rather than useful objects to invest emotions into.
You mean treated as human beings whose lives have value? Yeah, try that.
But they need America's political, economic, and military skirts to operated behind -- and they have been working overtime to lose that support for years.
Said like a disgraced mediocre College Foo-Bawl Coach and convicted Pedofile.
Israelis are welcome to continue to engage in right-wing belligerence and to align with the American right -- it's their choice (to align with the losers in the American culture war), and it's their funeral.
'there is no solution.'
So let's make it even worse!
I’m not actually sure that’s possible. I guess a nuclear war in the Middle East would make it worse.
Oh ye of little faith.
Thought experiment:
The UN and security council, noting a history of exodus, genocide, war crimes including rape and murder, and the current regime's consistent history of refusing to abide by written treaties, approve a surprise right of return resolution establishing the "State of Lenape" on exactly NYC including Manhattan island for cultural Lenape members and all dispossessed Native American tribespeople.
Within hours, the Tribes, aided significantly by Chinese military cells in the Eastern Seaboard, overwhelm the NYPD from Battery Park to Houston Street. They establish immediate curfew for former NYC citizens and set up council in the Municipal Building.
I know, it could "never happen" because the US military would win the battle/war, right? But in our thought experiment, the US military might is with the Lenape and the Chinese. The point of the hypothetical is that the combined arms of the boroughs *cannot* simply dislodge the Lenape. But maybe they spend some time trying (six days?)
Now explain to me how whatever comes next is something "reasonable people could settle in about five minutes." Tell me how Americans get comfortable losing the hallowed 9/11 memorial, Wall Street, Trinity Church, etc etc. Explain why the Lenape should agree to go *somewhere else in light of history. Sure it was 200+ years ago, but that shouldn't matter....
I'm not advocating for terrorism. I'm suggesting that "it was theirs once" is an unsatisfactory answer to the problem.
The fact that it was 200+ years ago is by far the most important point. The Lenape will never, ever, have that land again. They have to move on. Basing their society around a hopeless delusion of getting it back will only hurt them, if not lead to their destruction, in the long term.
How long had the Jews been dispossessed of the land that is now Israel? Was it more than 200 years....?
I agree with Jacob that enough time has passed that the Indians no longer have a plausible claim to the land. But suppose that in the 1800s, during the Trail of Tears and the forced relocation to reservations that the Indians had possessed Hamas’ capabilities to inflict terror in American cities. Would they have been morally justified in doing so?
No.
There’s another round of easy answers to simple questions.
When you say "enough time," you are making the Palestinians' point.
I find myself partly agreeing with this smirky little piece of shit, which I admit is uncomfortable.
That is a vivid indication you are doing this wrong.
Palestine; a fictional country populated by Arabs that no other Arab country wants.
Much of the conduct recounted in this article is abhorrent and unacceptable. (Burning a flag, for one example, is outside the relevant category.)
Antisemitism is no better (nor worse) than trans-bashing, racism, gay-bashing, immigrant-hating, misogyny, white supremacy, or other strains of bigotry. The antisemites should be held to account -- especially by institutions of reason and education -- and their targets should be safeguarded.
America's trajectory continues to be a good one, in part because it diminishes the bigotry and influence of bigots among us.
What the fuck is wrong with people like that (antisemite, gun nut)?
Josh, you could learn something from the VC’s resident polemicist, David Bernstein.
Here, you confuse your basic point by trying to layer in commentary with your description of basic facts. This is something that VC commenters also do, and it is also utterly confusing when they do it. You need to understand that your readers do not necessarily come to your writing with a preconceived understanding of what you’re really saying, when you use caricatures and equivocal language. When you write as though they do, you are basically shutting them out from understanding the actual point you want to convey.
For instance:
Here, you are trying to portray “both sides” commentary as engaged in a kind of pretzel-like twist to equate Hamas’s attacks with Israel’s response. Ironically, in so doing, you’ve twisted up your own prose. Because you refuse to refer simply to Hamas’s attacks – you have to editorialize on what they did. Similarly, you refuse to refer to Israel’s response directly, emphasizing instead some measures that Israel claims to have followed in order to reduce the risk of harm to innocent Palestinians (and omitting any reference to what military actions Israel has actually undertaken).
Anyone who doesn’t already buy into your priors is going to have a hard time parsing what you’re saying there – and so, in following the rest of your point. Which, ah – checking – I guess you don’t really bother to make in any other fashion. You move from this tortured strawman into bizarrely blaming CRT, a field you still don’t seem to have any grasp of, despite your repeated commentary on it.
But, no matter. Events on the ground are constantly evolving, and they are showing that the people calling for restraint in Israel’s response had every good reason to fear that Israel would engage in war crimes. The military strategy currently tracks internal strategy documents describing a way to push all Palestinians in Gaza into Egypt. Are you going to continue calling anyone who points this out “antisemitic,” right up to the point it becomes a fait accompli?
Far be it from me to stop a bit of harmless Blackman-bashing, but I’m not sure I follow your criticism. Hamas did rape, decapitate, burn, kidnap, and torture innocent civilians, and the IDF is a modern military taking steps to minimize civilian casualties in difficult urban warfare. That’s not “editorializ[ing]”—it’s a simple description what happened and what is happening. And someone who is going to be confused by characterizing the former conduct as “medieval barbarism” is probably beyond persuasion.
Did Israel bomb a refugee camp today?
If so, that will hearten clingers.
And put Israel a few steps closer to loss of American support.
Carry on, clingers. But only so far as your betters permit. Not a step beyond.
A "refugee camp" yes, full of Ham-Ass terrorists, so who gives a fuck?
"Loss of Amurican Support"?? if Parkinsonian Joe parking an Aircraft Carrier off the coast is "Amurican Support" who needs it? More like Amurica will need Israel's support if Joe's Caregivers plan on retaliating against Ear-Ron's attacks.
Carry on? Only Klinger I see is a disgraced Sex Criminal and mediocre Big 10 coach (are there any non-mediocre Big 10 coaches? When the best one's only known for punching a Clemson player in (another) embarrassing bowl loss.
Frank
Is there some place where Jews have been able to live better or as well among a predominantly Muslim population and governing authority as Muslims have living among a predominantly Jewish population and governing authority? If so, when and where? If not, why not?
This isn't about bothsidesim, this is about wanting a blank moral check.
Not a great ask, Josh!
Plenty of bad behavior you could point to, and you biffed it.
"Why are so many students drawn to that worldview? For starters, I would wager that they are never taught about anti-semitism and Israel in the abstract."
Since you provided absolutely no evidence to support your 'wager,' I will appropriately call your comments what they are:
Ignorant partisan bullshit.
While some have made such disgraceful equivalencies, many who point out the plight of Palestinian civilians (in both the current war and treatment by Israel prior to the war) are not equating the two.
What happened to the Republicans’ “very fine people on both sides” position? You figure better American would or should forget Trump, Charlottesville, Shelby County, a barbed wired river, right-wing transphobia, conservative gay-bashing, and Republican and Volokh Conspiracy bigotry in general?
Kiss my ass, clingers. And it is looking more and more like you will take Israel down with you.
Yes, he made it clear that he's using the large war to deflect from the rape and the murder, although that's not what his initial comment said.
One of Japan's key strategic weaknesses is a lack of oil on their home islands. How much oil do you think the Allies donated to Imperial Japan? More to the point, Gaza obviously has plenty of energy-- those rockets take fuel and those underground tunnels are only livable with generators. Gaza is still firing rockets and using those tunnel complexes, so it's just choosing to use the fuel it has for military rather than civilian purposes. Any negative consequences that flow from that are on them. After Gaza's unconditional surrender and the extermination of Hamas, of course we can discuss how they can earn electricity and fuel. Until then, for any energy shortages, take it up with Hamas.
Hamas is more than capable of building their own power plants.
They opt not to.
Yep. It's pretty much someone waving their arms and yelling, "watch me be ignorant".
Carlo Rosselli didn't know wtf he was taking about?
OK, LBJ was a DemoKKKrat, even if he did secretly support Milhouse in 68'(even his own party hated that gutless ward healer Hubert Humpty Dumpty)
The Party of the Nominee who said he opposed it?
IIRC George Wallace was a DemoKKKrat.
Frank
Ok that’s the logical fallacy called affirming the consequent. That George Wallace was a Democrat does not mean Democrats agree with George Wallace any more than the fact that a dog has four legs means that everything with four les is a dog.
And Frank, once the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed, which party committed itself to Nixon's "Southern Strategy" to cause the formerly D South to go over en mass to the R side, where they have remained for the past 60 years?
Do I think that anyone who saw the events of October 7, decided to respond by chanting “from the river to the sea”, and knows what river and the sea they’re talking about could possibly think that goal is attainable without the mass murder of Jews? No, I do not.
It was recommended, but never created as the Arabs did not want it.
No, counting out how many kids it’s ok to die to have good electricity or whatever is pretty ghoulish.
A feeble misrepresentation.
Having said that, people like Nige or Randal etc., are, I think, simply saying “Israel should be urged to be careful to remember not all Gazans are Hamas and be careful as possible while achieving their objective especially when it comes to civilian and children casualties. The rules of war are a good thing. Israel should follow them. The US should follow them. ...
And, I think you're dense if you actually believe that. People like Nige and Randal seem to think that any action by Israel is too much, and no act of terror by Hamas is over the line. That's why they're Nazi scum.
Hilarious! Whenever a right-winger sprays spittle about “Liberal Socialism”, a wide sluggish river of bullshit inevitably follows. Of course the term inevitably means whatever crank nonsense the person last heard on talk radio or his QAnon podcast. And it’s such a pliable and elastic phase in the winger’s calcified mind, it can easily mean one thing today and something different tomorrow.
In short, it’s the very phenomena of meaningless buzz-word taking precedent over factual argument. No doubt the clown who uses it has a definition in “mind”, but given that’s nothing nothing more than “Everything I hate”, it’s not very helpful.
So along comes TwelveInchPianist to redeem this sordid spectacle. And how? By proving the term existed in 1930s Italian politician philosophy!!! Could there be any greater proof of the vacuous nature of this buzz-word than such a lame response?
Neither side wanted it, IIRC. As a result, Israel was created by Israel, not by the UN.
That's what he claims. But see the larger context:
The most natural reading is that both the participants in the war are responsible for the tragedies in Israel. He doesn't explain why he suddenly shifts the topic from the tragedies in Israel to fault for the larger war, if that's what he indeed is doing.
You need to brush up on history sonny, The Jewish Yishuv accepted the partition plan, and the established Israel on its basis.
The Dutch educational system must be worse than I thought.
I explained it above. The rest of us have moved on from Oct 7.
The Onion was first.
Hamas is in charge of generating electricity for Gaza, they just refuse to do so and rely on Israeli (and global) charity. The parallel here is the embargo on US oil supplies to Japan, in response to among other things their actions in China, was a critical prelude to Pearl Harbor. Just like Japan and it's oil, Gaza isn't seeing any more electricity until their unconditional surrender.
"You can even see how influential this work must have been from his own citation!"
Or you can crack a book once in a while.
Pathetic.
"So along comes TwelveInchPianist to redeem this sordid spectacle. And how? By proving the term existed in 1930s Italian politician philosophy!!!"
It did. You can do a little research and see where else it existed (and exists) if you want, or you can spout ignorant comments on the internet. I see you've made your choice.
Not exactly; as I mentioned the other day, while the UN did propose and endorse the partition plan, and while the yishuv accepted it, the Arabs did not and it was never implemented. Israel was created by self-help. It's true that the green line boundaries resulting from the ensuing war bear a strong resemblance to the partition plan, but that's the way the independence war worked out; it wasn’t because the newly-minted Israelis said, "We're only claiming the partition plan lands because that's what the UN said."
The clingers are bigoted all of the time. It's most of their thing. Sometimes the gay-bashing is most prominent, other times they can't conceal the racism, lately Prof. Volokh is fixated on transphobia and Muslims, white grievance and hatred of immigrants are never far from the surface, but the constant is old-timey conservative bigotry.
Great. My subsidization of Israel's right-wing shittiness will end sooner than expected.
The Israeli declaration of independence states the new-born country is established "ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.".
Had the Arabs accepted the plan the same way, both states would have come into existence, on the recommended partition line borders.
When one side refuses the deal and starts a war , all bets are off.
But if what you want to say is that the UN did not create Israel, I agree - the UN merely suggested a partition, and whether or not it was accepted, the state itself was self created (like any other state)
Democrats continued to control the South, winning state houses and Governships, extending in some states until the 21st century.
The "Southern Strategy" and "the parties switched sides" are myths the Democrats tell themselves to try to deny their history. Those things never happened.
That they have the energy and fuel to fire rockets incessantly is evidence that they have the fuel and energy to provide power if they so wished to do so.
Hamas feels no need to take care of the people they govern.
You can ask, if you don't understand, I'm not surprised, what's your race ever accomplished besides inventing Peanut Butter?
Most Israelis think the current actions by Israel are to much. Most non-Israeli Jews think the same. They're all Nazi scum too, presumably.
When the right fastens on to something like this, whether it's pedophiles or All Lives Mattering or anti-semitism, you can be damn sure that any chance of discussing or addressing the real problems behind their performative screaming go out the window.
You obviously haven’t been paying attention. My complaints about Israel are that they haven’t been doing enough. They’ve been complacent while Gazans suffer, and I think they have a responsibility for the occupied territories. They need to be working vigorously towards peace, not standing by and keeping Hamas barely alive for decades. I’m all for them eradicating Hamas — within the laws of war — as long as they follow through with getting Gaza (and the West Bank) on track to some sort of reasonable outcome. They should’ve done it 20 years ago. Really, they should've done something even before that, like, probably just living with the 1966 "three-state solution" would've been way better.
TwelveInchPianist : “It did. You can do a little research and see where else it existed (and exists) if you want”
Well, sure. Of course it existed (and exists). But 99 & 9/10 of the times it’s used in political discourse in this country the term is nothing but a meaningless buzz word. Do you honestly think jimc5499 has the slightest clue how to distinguish “Liberal Socialism” from all the other kinds of mixed economies ubiquitous in today's capitalist world?
Not the slightest chance. The man can’t string together two coherent thoughts without drifting off into empty invective or fantasy gibberish. But that’s the way the term is always used by the Right’s hive mind of ignorance.
Self-reflection is not one of your strengths, it seems.
What other topics should we be able to see the other side on?
How about "Trump did not cause a riot nor attempt an insurrection"?
I can spot a pattern when it repeats.