The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Trump Indictment Hangover
The high may feel good, but the hangover will be terrible.
In politics, as in nature, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. When congressional Democrats impeached President Trump, twice, it was inevitable that Republicans would seek to use impeachment against democrat politicians. And now that the Democratic presidential administration has indicted President Trump, it will inevitably come to pass that Republicans will seek to indict Democratic politicians. Two recent pieces in the New York Times reflect these Newtonian reactions.
First, Carl Hulse writes that impeachments and censures, once rare, have become the new normal in Congress. There are currently investigations to impeach the Secretary of Homeland Security, the Attorney General, and even President Biden himself.
Proposals to censure lawmakers and impeach members of the Biden administration are piling up quickly in the House in an illustration of how once-solemn acts are becoming almost routine as the two parties seize on these procedures as part of their political combat. And the trend is only likely to intensify given the enmity between Republicans and Democrats over a new federal indictment brought against Mr. Trump for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election, and the G.O.P.'s desire to even the score.
The proliferation of censures and cries for impeachment is troubling to some who see it as a threat to the standing of the institution as well as diminishing the weight such punishments are supposed to carry. Censure is the congressional penalty just below expulsion.
These reactions were entirely foreseeable:
But it is a truism of the contemporary Congress that once one party does something the other sees as a breach, the aggrieved party will return fire once it gets the chance — and perhaps even take things up a notch. Tit for tat is the coin of the congressional realm. . . .
"I said two years ago, when we had not one but two impeachments, that once we go down this path it incentivizes the other side to do the same thing," said Senator Mitch McConnell, Republican of Kentucky and the minority leader.
"Impeachment ought to be rare," he said, adding, "This is not good for the country."
In December 2019, I warned in the Atlantic that Trump's first impeachment could set a dangerous precedent:
Without question, Congress can convict a president for conduct that is not criminal. This process is not bound by the strictures of the United States Code. Moreover, Congress can begin impeachment proceedings for conduct that is inconsistent with the president's duty to faithfully execute the laws. This inquiry, though subjective, is a necessary feature of the American constitutional order. But the predicates of the Trump articles will set a dangerous precedent, as impeachment might become—regrettably—a common, quadrennial feature of our polity.
Just because Trump could have been impeached does not mean he should have been impeached. The same goes for indictment.
There is a second piece in the Times that speaks to our downward spiral. Jack Goldsmith writes that the D.C. indictment of Trump "may have terrible consequences."
There is no getting around the fact that the indictment comes from the Biden administration when Mr. Trump holds a formidable lead in the polls to secure the Republican Party nomination and is running neck and neck with Mr. Biden, the Democratic Party's probable nominee.
This deeply unfortunate timing looks political and has potent political implications even if it is not driven by partisan motivations. And it is the Biden administration's responsibility, as its Justice Department reportedly delayed the investigation of Mr. Trump for a year and then rushed to indict him well into G.O.P. primary season. The unseemliness of the prosecution will most likely grow if the Biden campaign or its proxies use it as a weapon against Mr. Trump if he is nominated.
Goldsmith adds that Republicans already hold a dismal view of DOJ in light of the Russia-Russia-Russia saga, in tandem with Hunter Biden's apparent sweetheart deal. Goldsmith explains that Republicans, when in power, will seek to exact payback:
The prosecution may well have terrible consequences beyond the department for our politics and the rule of law. It will probably inspire ever more aggressive tit-for-tat investigations of presidential actions in office by future Congresses and by administrations of the opposing party, to the detriment of sound government.
And such charges won't be difficult. Smith's prosecution, at bottom, accuses Trump of lying to aggrandize his power. Virtually every person who achieved high office engaged in related conduct.
It may also exacerbate the criminalization of politics. The indictment alleges that Mr. Trump lied and manipulated people and institutions in trying to shape law and politics in his favor. Exaggeration and truth shading in the facilitation of self-serving legal arguments or attacks on political opponents have always been commonplace in Washington. These practices will probably be disputed in the language of, and amid demands for, special counsels, indictments and grand juries.
Back in August 2022, I explored the dilemma facing Merrick Garland. Ultimately, he chose to indict--that decision was his, and not that of Jack Smith. In some regards, this decision was Newtonian as well. In an alternate reality, Justice Garland would be on the Supreme Court, Roe v. Wade would still be on the books, President Hillary Clinton would be halfway through her second term in office, and Donald Trump, well, he would probably still be under indictment in New York. But that timeline did not happen. We do not know where Trump's indictment will lead. But I agree with Goldsmith that it will likely be terrible.
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Valid reasons to impeach garland & biden
Garland for the Biden protection racket he is running through the DOJ
Biden for actual corruption and bribery
As opposed to impeaching Trump for TDS - though trump's behavior is dispectible.
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators.
Ouch.
Very ouch.
So you think someone disparaging Trump reflects poorly on Volokh's blogging? You're even bad at trolling.
Oh condemning Trump offhandedly while claiming at length that Biden is worse is a funny game some people like to play. They believe it comes across as evenhanded and thoughtful, somehow. Eesh.
Nige - If you got out of your left wing bubble you would be aware that Trump wasnt involved in $m of bribery that the biden family has been involved in.
It's outrageous. Biden's corruption is dispectible.
I think we ought to impeach Hunter Biden immediately! And bar him from future office, too!
Tom if you werent trying to push evidence-free lies then you wouldn't be pushing evidence-free lies.
Nige 2 hours ago
Tom if you werent trying to push evidence-free lies then you wouldn’t be pushing evidence-free lies.
Nige - are you seriously that ill informed? or are you simply parroting woke talking points
Just not a liar like yourself.
Nige-bot bubble busted, shrivels up like Dracula when exposed to truth
Tom, it's "despicable," and you remind me of a postcard a now-retired member of Congress once showed me that he had gotten from one of his constituents. It said that she was "very much opposed to the queers since they don't reproduce in the natural way."
Try to write in such a way that you don't expose yourself as incapable of basic logic. Your arguments will be taken more seriously if you do.
"incapable of basic logic"
Spelling errors are not evidence of this.
Krycheck - okay - its despicable that the biden family has been involved in $m of bribery and it is despicable that you and Nige would deny the bribery.
It's despicable that you don't have any evidence.
Tom, the Bible says that "the simple believe every word," and you sure do.
Today, the House Committee on Oversight and Accountability issued a memorandum revealing new evidence resulting from the investigation into the Biden family’s influence peddling and business schemes. Subpoenaed financial records show that from 2015 to 2017, Biden family members – Hunter Biden, James Biden, Hallie Biden, and an unknown “Biden” – and their companies collectively received $1.3 million in payments from accounts related to Rob Walker, a Biden family associate.
Notably, on March 1, 2017, less than two months after Vice President Joe Biden left public office, State Energy HK Limited, a Chinese company, wired $3 million to Rob Walker’s company. The next day, the company wired $1,065,000 to a company associated with James Gilliar, another Biden family associate. Afterwards, the Biden family received approximately $1,065,000 in payments over a three-month period in different bank accounts. From the bank records, it appears that the Biden family received approximately one-third of the money obtained from the China wire.
Gosh, it almost seems like the "Biden crime family" made an investment!
Tom, assume every word that you just said is true. There's nothing in it that says Joe Biden benefitted -- it's all Hunter, James, Hallie and an unknown Biden. And I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you can't impeach someone for what their family members do.
Get back to us when there's credible evidence that Joe Biden benefitted from bribery. Until then, he is not responsible for the deeds of his family.
"you can’t impeach someone for what their family members do."
You can impeach someone for any reason.
Its funny you think large payments to Bidens are meaningless but large payments to Kushners or [non-Donald] Trumps are evidence of bribes.
I'm unaware of Donald Trump being impeached, or even investigated, for Jared Kushner's or Eric, Don Jr. or Ivanka's business dealings.
Bob, I don't recall having said that large payments to the Kushners are evidence of bribes, but I would apply the same principle to the Trumps that I do to the Bidens: You can't impeach someone for what other people do, even if those other people are close relatives.
Bob, the reason Kushner's and the MiniTrumps' potential bribe-taking is more interesting than Hunter's isn't because of the reflection of either on daddy, but because they had senior roles in the administration at the time.
"senior roles in the administration at the time."
Staff positions. Hunter lives part time in the White House and often goes with daddy on government business trips.
No functional difference.
Look, if you're going to admit they're doing it for payback and any weak pretext will suffice, do that, it isn't as if it isn't blatantly obvious anyway.
This by the way is why you should never 'assume every word you said is true.' No meangingful distinction between true and false is being made, so the exercise is pointless. They will assert false things as true and contrive false implications for things that are true. They still claim to believe the election was stolen.
Bob says: "No functional difference."
Jared Kushner had a top secret (and later downgraded to secret) security clearance. He was a "senior advisor" and was sent to abroad to negotiate a Middle East peace plan with Mohammed bin Salman.
Seems pretty functional to me.
Note how nothing about this is ever about Joe Biden. It's always about the "Biden family." And when the numbers don't look impressive enough they start talking about "the Biden family and associates."
And note how they never have any actual evidence of wrongdoing — just receiving money — as if doing business itself it somehow damning.
I wonder how that woman felt about nuns.
Or some priests.
What are you talking about? Who are you directing that to?
It has nothing to do with my response to the "Rev" attempting to criticize Volokh.
Just like I think it's stupid for people like Blackman to keep political score of Supreme Court outcomes, it's equally dumb to judge whether/how people here criticize Trump and/or Biden. If something is wrong or illegal, it should matter who did it.
But people like the "Rev" like to disparage anyone from a red state, or right of center political beliefs, as toothless hillbillies. Whatever.
Superstitious, bigoted, and disaffected is no way to go through life.
'"
That this blog attracts such a striking concentration of disaffected, uninformed, delusional, illiterate, roundly bigoted fans reflects poorly on the Volokh Conspiracy, on each of its operators, and on the institutions that hired the Conspirators.
Dispectible!
One of the funny things about the politicization of justice that you are so worried about, is that there is evidence that Trump was soliciting bribes for presidential pardons, only Biden's DOJ has declined to prosecute.
If this was all political theater as people are implying, they have more than enough to go after him on generic corruption and bribery charges from his time in office. The democrats are actually holding back. But, you look in the mirror and think about what you would have done and just assume the worst.
Let me guess, this evidence came from the computer in Russia ir delivered directly from the hooker he pissed on. You leftists are a sick joke.
Has Trump hired Blackman?
"Members of the jury, my client did it, but they all do it, so you must acquit"
It would be unjust not to indict Trump if the facts are as alleged.
Josh seems to be doing the same thing that a lot of MAGA is doing, which is going even more insane as the facts become more and more irrefutably stacked against them. Before, they would complain about "mainstream media" and "politicization of the DOJ," etc. Now they just lie.
Projection. It's a thing.
There is some truth in the fact that I (and many other Americans) have been essentially traumatized by the constant drumbeat of malfeasance and corruption of the Trump years, and the loss of Roe along with multiple state-level efforts to limit democratic accountability and freedom - all while overseen by an unaccountably corrupt Supreme Court and indifferent national parties - has increased the sense of urgency with which we must fight the fascistic creep coming from the right wing.
But I am not lying about anything, or engaged in the tricky doublespeak that MAGA does, where you all profess to believe things none of you privately believe to be true. Trump did withhold military aid in order to try to convince Ukraine to announce an investigation into Hunger Biden. Trump did seek to remain in office via a broad, multi-state effort to contest electoral slates that would ultimately result in having the presidential election being decided by the House. Eastman did defend this attempt at a quasi-legal coup by invoking the Declaration of Independence and insinuating that a not-even-inaugurated Biden presidency posed such an existential threat that his actions were justifiable. Trump did have classified documents at Mar-a-Lago; he did drag his feet and mislead the FBI when the government tried to get those documents back. And on and on.
None of that is subject to any kind of reasonable dispute. One might dispute whether some of these actions were more or less permitted. But MAGA has moved beyond that discussion entirely. They deny that the classified documents existed. They ignore the facts about the electoral slate scheme and pretend that Trump was just complaining about the process. They amplify claims made about the "Biden crime family" but have never offered any kind of evidence whatsoever, apart from what - a note to file from the Trump-era FBI, dictated by a "whistleblower"-spy?
Like Bernie Madoff merely had an accounting dispute with his investors...
“Traumatized by the “Loss of Roe”??? 500,000 dead Black Babies a year isn’t enough?? How many would it take for you to not be “Traumatized” 600,000? 700,000? a Million??
Frank "Against killing any babies, and I don't even like babies"
Why? The facts as currently stated are not a violation of any federal statute. That’s exactly the problem with them, criminalizing political acts. I know you people have assumed from Jan 6 that Trump committed crimes by denying he lost and waging a ridiculous legal effort which you call a coup and/or attempt at stealing an election.
There may still be evidence that comes out (especially in the state of Georgia) that Trump did commit a crime. In fact, I’m rather confident there will be a legitimate charge out of Georgia (not the SecState call). Because Trump is a moron who doesn’t care about legality and ignores legal counsel advice.
None of that makes him guilty of anything Smith alleges, because there is no crime demonstrated. Pretty much every politician commits a fraud against the United States.
criminalizing political acts.
Rather, MAGAs are engaged in politicising criminal acts and then arguing that as they're political, they're somehow not illegal.
It's not too different from the complaints about "process crimes" as though process crimes aren't "really" illegal.
they aren't, oh they're "Ill-legal" in the sense that spitting on the sidewalk is "Ill-legal" or "Mopery with intent to creep", or failing to call 9-11 when you've just flipped your car at Chappaquick,
and I don't doubt that Parkinsonian Joe got more "Votes" than "45" in Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, or Arizona.
Whether they were legal votes from actual living peoples, yes, I do doubt that, so what "Crime" did I just commit??
Frank
Oh yes, Trump was committing Medicare billing fraud, AKA fraud against the United States.
But I know there are some on the left equally eager to somehow make climate change denying criminal. That's what I mean when I say criminalizing politics.
I think Trump is a cancer on our political system. That doesn't mean I want to lock him up by making his lies somehow criminal, ex post facto, because the mob is cheering for that.
Like I said, I wait patiently for Georgia, because it seems like he was involved in an actually statutory identifiable offense. The particulars of the Florida document indictment also seems justifiable--because they didn't attempt to charge him for what he took with him.
"But I know there are some on the left equally eager to somehow make climate change denying criminal."
Really?! you actually know this or is this just sarcasm that's morphed into fact?
Unfortunately I'm starting to come to the conclusion I'm going to have to vote for Trump in 2024, to save the Republic from endless back in forth indictments.
The only way to stop it is to make sure it fails spectacularly.
On the other hand Biden is making that strategy difficult. Comer has announced that they've traced 20m in foreign funds to the Biden family. Next of course will be the Biden family back records to see what happened to the money after that.
We already know about the Burisma bribe allegation 5m for Joe, and 5m for Hunter, and "son of a bitch" we know Hunter got his 5m, landing the job just 3 months after he was kicked out of the Navy for cocaine use.
The sad thing is that the Dems will ignore any evidence of money transfers to benefit Pres. Biden.
Darth Buckeye 40 mins ago Flag Comment Mute User The sad thing is that the Dems will ignore any evidence of money transfers to benefit Pres. Biden.”
True – Dems continue to prove the same with Hillary.
I am not stating that trump isnt a problem – just pointing out willful denial on part of the dems
Darth, the sadder thing is we will likely never find out about your sad thing, because Comer's promises to produce a smoking gun "any day now" won't turn out to be any more real than Powell and Giuliani's.
No evidence of money transfers, no evidence of policymaking as a quid pro quo.
There are 150 suspicious transfer reports.
The House has not yet opened an impeachment investigation, once they do they will have full subpoena power for all of the Bidens bank records, as well as all their business associates.
We’re at the pre Grand Jury stage, so to speak, not the beyond reasonable doubt stage.
Just remember from the Russiagate and the impeachments how much evidence is needed before opening a full investigation with almost unlimited subpoena power.
They have all they need to start down that path.
The race is on, who goes down first Biden or Trump?
Hopefully it’s a tie and we have two real choices in ‘24.
The chances of the Republicans over-reaching and tripping over their own feet are reasonably high, I'd say.
As DMN patiently pointed out to you a suspicious transfer report is not by itself a sign anything untoward is going on.
We’re at the pre Grand Jury stage, so to speak, not the beyond reasonable doubt stage.
Which doesn't mean you won't be mocked for breathlessly reporting each new bombshell that never delivers.
Just remember from the Russiagate and the impeachments how much evidence is needed before opening a full investigation with almost unlimited subpoena power.
There was plenty of evidence there. But lets pretend you have the right of it. REVENGE is not a great argument. It's telling as to why your critical thinking skills are in the 'off' position lately, though.
Comer and Jordan have already proved willing to lie about all things Hunter. How can you take anything they say seriously, terrorist-boy?
Look. The way to deal with the indictments is to wait and see how they play out. It's entirely possible that none of the charges stick. The NY ones because they're weak, the J6 ones because they're too subtle to understand, the documents ones because Judge Cannon, and the Georgia ones -- if they come to pass -- because who knows, jury nullification or something.
If they do stick, and survive appeal, there's still every chance his sentence will be commuted, even by Biden. Or he'll get pardoned by himself or someone else before it ever comes to that.
The point is... indictments (and impeachments) aren't all that consequential in and of themselves. I doubt we're entering an era of endless, frivolous impeachments and indictments that go nowhere -- it'll just get boring.
Actually, we don't know any of those things.
What we do know is that Comer is a great big liar, which means sensible people ignore everything he says.
So you're either endorsing all of Trump's various threats against witnesses and judges and prosecuters and everyone else, or giving in to them.
Kaz, you think you know tons of stuff from whistleblowers that were promised, but never actually happened.
You should wait till there's any actual evidence before you go all in. Thusfar, long on promises, zilch on deliverables.
"The only way to stop it is to make sure it fails spectacularly."
By "it" I presume you mean democracy?
I have wondered if he’s on Fed Soc or some MAGA PAC payroll for this garbage. His nonsense is just partisan and outcome-oriented.
There’s money in this gig?
Sign me up.
What, you didn’t know Fed Soc bankrolled friendly commentary or that Russia used internet trolls to support Trump?
Billions. Just ask Murdoch. Rile up the crowd, feed them conspiracy and lies, and watch the dollars roll in. (Just be sure to have dual citizenship so you can deftly dodge the aftermath of your greed.)
Welp. Josh fully clowning now.
Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine in order to extract assistance in his campaign for re-election, and then - when he lost anyway - oversaw a multi-state, multi-faceted campaign to subvert the will of voters and retain the presidency. If that's not the sort of thing a president should be impeached over, what is?
If taking classified documents home with you and then obstructing the government's efforts to get the documents back shouldn't land you in jail, why not? If lining up slates of fake electors to throw the electoral count in chaos, with the ultimate purpose of giving the House the authority to select you as President, despite losing the election fair and square, shouldn't land you in jail, why not?
We've seen this play out before, Josh. We know what happens when nations fail to punish leaders who act like Trump did. They don't stay democracies for very long.
As I said on another one of your screeds, you ought to be taking a different lesson away from the fact that Eastman, et al., are now finding them caught up in criminal investigations for their cynical and deceitful attempts to derail the peaceful transfer of power. Here, you're not even pretending to be a reasonable person. So we see which path you're heading down.
By your reasoning Parkinsonian Joe should be in Federal Prison (I think the Parkinson's Prisoners go to Springfield MO (talk about Cruel and Unusual) since he "took classified documents home" and that's not even considering the Saudi bribes.
Did Joe resist attempts to return them and get his lawyer to write a letter denying he had them, and then order staff to move them?
Doesn't matter, possession, no matter how slight, is sufficient to complete the act.
That is a profoundly stupid assertion . . . and precisely the level of legal analysis reasonable observers expect to find at a white, male, right-wing blog with a vanishingly scant legal and academic veneer.
Read 18 U.S.C. § 1924 - UNAUTHORIZED REMOVAL AND RETENTION OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS OR MATERIAL
"Coach"
I know it's a challenge to do so with out moving your lips, and there aren't any pictures to color in or mazes to trace.
Frank
"Whoever, ... becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years..."
Now all you have to do is figure out what "knowingly" and "with the intent to retain such documents" mean. Maybe it would help if you moved your lips or looked at some pictures.
Good Point, not sure Parkinsonian Joe does anything "Knowingly"
If I hand you a satchel which contains -- among a group of household bill receipts -- classified, improperly trafficked government documents, and ask you to deliver it to someone, and the authorities take that satchel from your hands and find the classified documents, you will be properly determined to have been in possession (not "slight" possession, but possession) of the documents.
I sense you would not have completed, or committed, or commenced, a criminal act.
An illiterate, antisocial bigot such as Drackman constitutes the core of the Volokh Conspiracy's target audience.
How much longer should legitimate, mainstream law schools be expected to have their names associated with this flaming, stinking clustermuck of bigotry and belligerent, partisan ignorance?
Not Kind or Gentle, and I’m quite “Literate” even if I can’t always hear the Falconer. You might have a point on the “Antisocial”, but “Bigot”?? C’mon Man!!!!! No racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless. Frank
“Doesn’t matter, possession, no matter how slight, is sufficient to complete the act.”
Uh, no. The essential elements of 18 U.S.C. § 1924 include: (1) status as an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, (2) possession by virtue of such status, (3) knowing, (4) removal of documents or materials, (5) containing classified information, (6) without authority, (7) combined with the intent to retain such documents or materials, (8) at an unauthorized location. The statute does not create a strict liability offense. Mere possession, by itself, doesn’t feed the bulldog.
The prosecution would further have to show (if the matter is raised in defense) that prosecution has been timely instituted according to 18 U.S.C. § 3282(a). Assuming arguendo that Joe Biden himself removed the subject documents (or caused others to do so under 18 U.S.C. § 2), that removal would in all likelihood have occurred before his term as vice-president ended in January 2017 or before his Senate tenure ended in January 2009.
You know what really gets on my nerves? There was a time that conservative trolls spouting the latest talking points could at least do so in a compelling way. Here, it looks like you ran MTG's memo through a garbage disposal and dredged it back up to comment.
All the discussion about Biden's mental acuity is really ironic, coming as it so often seems to from people whose brains are leaking out their ears.
Attack the messenger(s) I guess, including MTG) much? well 2 can play at the game, Jerky, it looks like you ran Pencil Neck Schitt's Creek or Mullah Ilhan Omar's talking points memo through a shredder and tried to piece it back together.
Hey, I'm sorry the Amurican People elected a demented 80 year old man, and sorrier his VPOTUS is even worse if that's posible.
Frank
That's nice, Frank. Time for your meds, maybe a diaper change.
Seems that you need to up your meds and Biden who needs a diaper change.
I would invite you to read and engage with my original comment in this thread, where I engage with Josh's post and try to make an actual point, if you find my exchange with Frank too puerile.
Otherwise, go choke on a dick.
Didn't take much for you to show your true colors.
As Frank would say: Not kind and gentle.
Always funny when Mr Bumble turns into Mr Manners.
My "true color" is that I don't feel the need to engage in a level of civility that not a single goddamn one of you feel the need to observe, in your own commentary. If you have nothing of value to add to the conversation but petty insults and namecalling, then you get from me exactly what you contribute.
Since you're not responding to any of my comments but the not-nice ones, I know exactly what you're after, and exactly what you deserve. Cocksucker.
"Cocksucker."
I thought you were a homosexual?
I'm a fag, Bob. Get it straight.
Seems odd that you use a sex act you perform as an insult.
Simon,
Are you just generally butt hurt or did your partner forget to lube up?
Bob, I'm just using language your lot would understand. Would you prefer that I advise you to choke on a rancid queef?
Mr. Bumble, I'm a top, so sufficient lubrication is always in my interest. Given your impotent micropenis, I'm sure you probably don't understand the mechanics of sex, but I'm happy to draw a diagram if it seems a bit mysterious to you - I don't get off by putting peanut butter on my nub and getting my golden lab to lick it off, like you do.
Bob from Ohio is in a bad mood today. Turns out there aren't as many Ohioans who are as bigoted, backward, superstitious, and antisocial as had been feared. Not nearly.
'Are you just generally butt hurt or did your partner forget to lube up?'
Now, now, Mr Manners.
"If taking classified documents home with you and then obstructing the government’s efforts to get the documents back shouldn’t land you in jail, why not?"
I think you might be missing a big part of that sentence.
Look, regardless of the circumstances of Trump taking the documents, I think we can all agree that if he had just turned them over once he was asked to, there would never have been an issue.
I will leave it up as an exercise for you as to why he chose to lie about it, and continue to try and hold on to them ... including by destroying evidence and lying to his attorneys. Because, honestly, I can't possibly explain it. Other than, you know, that's Trump.
Anyway, it's saying something that this is a relatively minor thing (you know, lying and obstructing justice in order to hold on to documents he should not have so he could, um, brag about them or something) compared to, well, the other things.
Sorry, no. That was the snap-pivot AFTER Biden was found to have tranche after tranche of classified documents of his own.
Before that, the mob was perfectly content to proceed to the gallows on possession alone.
'Sorry, no.'
It's not any sort of snap or pivot. It's what happened.
Put the "mob" and "loudest media narrative that I currently recall" aside.
There is nothing factually incorrect in what Loki is saying. Classified document retention after leaving government happens a lot, due to the volume of classified documents and the likely stressful and somewhat chaotic process of leaving office. Hell, I still have work documents from a couple of jobs ago, that I just haven't gotten around to shredding. Usually, the way the government deals with that mishandling is just to get the documents back. When people cooperate, then the view has been that there is no reason to launch a criminal investigation and prosecution. Both Biden and Pence have gotten the benefit of that treatment.
Trump did not because, when the government did try to get documents back, he simply refused. Those documents were "his," in his view. And so he shuffled the documents around, defied subpoenas, misled investigators, etc. It took months before they felt the need to raid Mar-a-Lago. Trump had every opportunity that Biden and Pence had - to say nothing of everyone else who's found themselves holding onto classified documents - to turn over what he had. But he knew what he had and sought to keep it.
That's the difference.
Whether the "mob" got ahead of itself and started marching to the gallows - and I'll note that the above SOP I've outlined was consistently reported in the media that you no doubt never consumed and so cannot recall - is beside the point. We're not accountable for the most idiotic takes made once upon a time.
You're just polishing the memory hole. The initial DOJ referral from NARA that started this whole debacle -- the first of its kind in history to my knowledge -- was based solely on the presence of classified documents in the initial 15 boxes of documents Trump voluntarily returned.
So? Sounds like the sort of thing we would want NARA to do, right?
Well, that didn't take long.
After one post of heartfelt handwaving that was completely orthogonal to Loki's original argument, you're now officially jumping to the next lily pad: from "come on, if he'd just returned the docs on request, nothing would have happened" to "well, once he returned the docs on request, wouldn't we WANT DOJ to get involved?!??"
Classic.
Do you have a law degree, Life of Brian?
College degree?
Maybe a degree from backwater, conservative religious school?
High school diploma?
GED?
Not Kind or Gentle
And then Artie desperately heaves in a dose and a half of ad hom to somehow try to distract from the rake Simon just enthusiastically stomped on.
Just keeps getting better.
Before you ask for someones CV, how about providing your own?
LoB, Trump isn't being prosecuted for the documents he returned to NARA, or his foot-dragging with NARA. He is being prosecuted for documents he retained after his voluntary compliance, lying in response to subpoenas, and destroying or attempting to destroy evidence subpoenaed by the FBI.
Your argument amounts to, "The FBI figured out he was hiding documents and obstructing their return to the government only because NARA tipped them off that he might be." But it turns out that they were right to have done so.
And that's the bottom line -- you have to engage in time travel so you can use hindsight to justify the probe. As I said at the start, such an over-the-top response -- based solely on the presence of some classified docs in boxes voluntarily returned -- has never happened before Trump. Then when Biden's docs bubbled up they had to do something to try to present some sort of facial parity, but as I mentioned below in my response to Randal it just amounted to a carefully choreographed show that avoided putting him at any actual risk.
They went out of their way to try to find Trump doing something wrong, and went out of their way to squeeze their eyes shut so they wouldn't have a chance to find Biden doing something wrong. That's the inescapable contrast between the two that no amount of hindsight bias and shrill insults can erase.
'you have to engage in time travel so you can use hindsight to justify the probe'
This is an odd way to describe Trump taking the documents, ignoring requests to return them and then a supoena. Which is not what happened with Pence and Biden. Who are both being investigated for having documents anyway, just not threatening civil war over it.
And that’s the bottom line — you have to engage in time travel so you can use hindsight to justify the probe.
No. I said that NARA was justified, based on the facts before it, in referring the matter to the DOJ. You asserted, without any basis in fact, that this choice was wholly unprecedented. The fact that the referral turned up criminal activity just helps to demonstrate why the rule should be for NARA to turn over evidence it might uncover about the mishandling of classified documents to the DOJ. But there was nothing all that odd about the initial referral, considered on its own terms.
You also have no evidence that anyone is "squeezing their eyes shut" when it comes to Biden. The House is actively investigating. The FBI, under Trump, did investigate. It might be hard for you to keep track, because the outrage media is actively invested in keeping you confused, but every allegation has fallen apart upon close examination. Just like the Trump legal challenges to his election loss - the evidence just isn't there.
I'll repeat my invitation: show me a precedent. That's actually what has to happen when one person says something has never happened -- it's that pesky can't prove a negative deal.
Oh, LOL -- let me know when Justice picks up and runs with any of that.
Life of Brian is just pretty retarded is all.
The DoJ "getting involved" is not the same as an indictment. The DoJ "got involved" with Biden and Pence too.
Just stupidly false. It was based on the fact that after NARA asked for all the classified documents, Trump only gave back some of the classified documents. See how that works? It wasn't the giving back of documents that triggered the referral, it was the keeping. Like, so duh.
And the table-thumping vitriol continues -- the true mark of someone who is on the wrong side of the merits and knows it full well.
Uh huh -- instead of retaining moles to try to generate a pretext for a raid, they tipped off Team Biden exactly where they were planning to search. I guess that fits some uber-loose definition of "involvement" if that's all you're trying to accomplish.
Negative, duckie. I can do no better than NARA's own admission in response to the following go-get-'im question:
Table thumping! I'm laughing at you, sorry that didn't come across!
So... did you think I wouldn't click through the link? NARA also says there that they asked for the documents before they got them -- it's not like Trump just dropped them off one day out of the blue -- and that they weren't complete -- they were aware of additional missing documents.
So what point are you trying to make exactly? That NARA shouldn't have waited for proof and notified the DoJ even earlier?
I'm not even going to try to address whatever delusion you've got going on about moles or pretexts. They obviously didn't need a "pretext."
Oh dear. I note you didn't quote any of the actual language, which just says: "NARA has asked the representatives of former President Trump to continue to search for any additional Presidential records that have not been transferred to NARA, as required by the Presidential Records Act." That's garden-variety post-administration cleanup, and has Never. Ever. been cause for getting DOJ involved.
Again, you're trying to justify the NARA/DOJ alley-oop based on hindsight, when the entire issue under discussion in this thread is whether it would have reached that point in the first place had the headhunters not been looking for a pretext to dig in and try to find something untoward.
I mean, if you have a single example of this sort of over-the-top response during the transition of any prior administration, it's easy enough to post, right? But we all know you don't have anything -- this has been hashed over ad nauseam over the past couple of years -- which is why you're launching into attack mode instead. Hey, whatever gets your rocks off.
Uh huh. Much safer to sit here and hurl more insults rather than, say, type "Mar-a-Lago mole" into the search engine of your choice and note the vast array of alt-right sources like MSN, CNN, and Newsweek that were salivating over it at the time. It was also widely discussed at the time, including here, that protecting the leaker's identity was one of the reasons the search warrant affidavit has remained so broadly redacted.
'That’s garden-variety post-administration cleanup, and has Never. Ever. been cause for getting DOJ involved'
Never, ever has a president done what Trump did, so no wonder.
Don't confuse me with Simon! I'm saying that "getting the DoJ involved" is a strange thing to fixate on compared to "getting indicted". But even entertaining your complex about it, "getting the DoJ involved" seems totally appropriate based on what NARA knew at the time. Not really much different from when the DoJ "got involved" with Biden and Pence.
Ah, the lovely anti-logic of a right-winger. Yes, when you take your conclusion as a premise, you can conclude anything! It's a wonderful trick.
And believe me, there's nothing unusual about CNN and MSN "salivating" over right-wing delusions. It's one of their favorite things to salivate over in fact.
An informant is not a mole. A Secret Service agent is only a mole if you add a dash of conspiracy theory. None of the above is a "leaker"... really, you'd this is one where you'd be better off with "whistleblower" lol. But in any case, evidence of a crime is not a "pretext".
You wrote something true! So there's yet hope. Still odd that you'd be willing to die on this hill of lies for the hundred-and-umpteenth time.
Of course there's a country mile between those two points, generally taking one of two paths: 1) Gotta Get Bad Man NOW; and 2) Aw, everyone makes mistakes -- can't we just all be friends? As I acknowledged, DOJ has engaged in some play-pretty choreography prior to reaching 2 for Biden. That just intensifies my point about the stark discrepancy.
Huh? That's a really clumsy way to try to distract from the fact that NARA has Never. Ever. gone crying to the DOJ while sorting out presidential records from a departing administration. That's not a premise -- that's a fact. An inconvenient one for you, which is why you try so mightily to mischaracterize it.
I mean, keep at it, bro. If you can pedantically redefine every single word I use, my point will instantly compress into a singularity and disappear, and you can just ignore it. But it has to be EVERY SINGLE ONE. Enough slacking!
I don't need to correct every single word. I've already corrected enough of them to indict you as a peddler of lies. I'm sure you've got a bottomless pit of lies to peddle. Have fun with that!
I'm not trying to mischaracterize it. It's totally true! But it's only inconvenient to me if you live in the cult of Trump where you take as your premise that Trump's behavior is normal and NARA's is "over the top." In the real world, it's inconvenient to you. No prior administration behaved the way Trump did.
It seems you've conceded the point about the propriety of "getting the DoJ involved" and have moved on to how mean they were to Trump and nice to Biden. That's obviously just as retarded as your other attempted points. ("Gotta Get Bad Man NOW?" Trump had 6, 7, 8 months of "Aw, everyone makes mistakes" before their patience wore out.)
'if he’d just returned the docs on request'
Well, at least we've established as fact that he didn't return the documents when he should have, and that Pence and Biden did.
Not solely because they found classified documents; it was also that the documents were unfoldered and intermingled with a variety of other documents, and that NARA was still attempting to recover more documents, which ultimately required subpoenas and an FBI search to recover.
But not the last.
Last Nov 4 the National Archives Inspector-General referred Joe Biden to Justice after classified documents were found in an office he had used. That triggered an initial investigation, just like it did for Trump.
The FBI also searched Biden's office, though without a search warrant because Biden consented to the search. Trump didn't do that last part.
If you've not yet read my multiple responses to the stark disparities in "investigations" between the two, take a minute to catch up.
I mean, if I knew I didn't have any documents in a certain area, I'd be overjoyed to allow the FBI to come in and confirm that while whatever docs I do have stay safely ensconced wherever they may actually be. What's magical about the office?
The fact that Biden is being investigated is proof that Biden isn't being investogated!
Life, it was the office where the documents were found by Biden's lawyers, who passed them on to NARA, who made the referral because some of the documents had classification markings.
The FBI searched that office a couple of weeks later, with Biden's consent
Two months later the FBI also searched Biden's home in Wilmington, and found 6 more documents with classified markings. He consented to this search too, in spite of your certainty that he would only consent if he knew they wouldn't find anything.
Two weeks after that the FBI performed a third consensual search, this time of Biden's home in Rehoboth Beach, but found no classified documents there.
In contrast, Trump didn't volunteer anything but eventually supplied 15 boxes of documents 8 months after NARA asked for them. Some of the documents were marked classified so NARA referred the matter to Justice, the same as they would later do with Biden. Trump though didn't cooperate with the investigation. He objected to Justice even viewing the returned documents.
After 3 months of delays they served him with a subpoena. When the FBI went to Mar-a-Lago to receive responsive documents Trump's lawyers showed them storage boxes that contained other documents Trump had taken, but denied their request to search the boxes. Instead they were offered a letter certifying that a diligent search had been performed and there were no more documents to be found.
Two months later that certification was revealed to be false when the FBI executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago and found more than 100 additional documents marked classified.
The two investigations did both start off with a referral from NARA, but went in different directions when one target cooperated quickly and fully, and the other obstructed and dissembled for half a year.
I look forward to your next attempt at rationalization.
Since there's no such thing as "the documents" -- rather, there were several stashes in several different places -- I'm really not seeing what importance you're thinking we should attach to this particular one.
Again, "look, over HERE!" is a pretty damn grade-school tactic that I cannot believe you would actually think DOJ would be foolish enough to fall for. But then, so is tipping off the target of a search of when and where they're about to search. As I said: clumsy choreography so uncritical thinkers can have something to cling to.
Particular one? I talked about three Biden searches.
If asking for consent to search is what you consider “tipping off the target” then Trump was also tipped off. You are in a minority of Trump supporters if you are now arguing that DoJ should have requested and executed his search warrant without asking for permission first.
Huh? I asked you why the office mattered; you answered; I replied directly to that (even quoted it). Still don't see why it has any special relevance.
Suggesting Trump got advance notice of the Mar-a-Lago raid is baloney. And again -- he invited both DOJ and FBI to come in and look, which they did. That was enough for Biden; not enough for Trump.
Not only that but using that logic Obama needs to be in jail along with every other living ex President.
That was the snap-pivot
No, Trump lying to NARA was a thing off the break. It was what the missing documents to requiring a raid.
You're either misremembering, or lying.
You can't be that stupid.
SimonP : “Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine in order to extract assistance in his campaign for re-election”
In addition to that, remember Trump’s campaign to trade U.S. government favor for personal gain went well beyond the Zelensky call shakedown. The first impeachment was based on almost two years of conduct. Just a month before the call, Trump had the Ukrainian presidents top aides at the White House and told them Zelensky could have a presidential summit IF he agreed to announce an investigation against Biden. An actual inquiry didn’t matter – probably even Trump knew there was no there there – but it had to be a public announcement and Zelensky had to commit to that in writing.
That was the meeting when Bolton stormed out saying, “I’m not going to be part of any drug deal”. But the “drug deals” had been ongoing for over a year at that point, with Trump outsourcing U.S. foreign policy to private agents like Giuliani and his low-grade hoodlums, Lev Parnas and Igor Furman. Along the way, the CIA warned Trump that Rudy was dealing with Russian spies during his trips to Ukraine to buy Hunter dirt. Of course Trump didn’t care.
When the entire foreign policy of the United States is repurposed as a private scam, those kinda things happen…
"democrat politicians"
Get an education. Start with standard English.
Don't start at any school that teaches nonsense to flatter dogma or whose name starts with South Texas.
Or has a Football Coach named Jerry Sandusky.
You know, "Dr." Drackman, the Sandusky business is really tiresome and pointless, and contributes zip to the site.
Yes, Kirkland can get tiresome too.
It's kind of funny that people who claim to care about young people being trafficked and abused think it's cool that this edgebot turns sexual abuse into a schtick with which to attack someone else. Oh, wait.
Your "contributions" are even more tiresome and pointless but I'm usually too kind and gentle to point it out.
Frank
Frank, I find both you and Arthur tiresome, and I will be greatly surprised if anyone other than you thinks your Sandusky schtick is funny. Can you please find a new schtick? This one has definitely run its course.
OK, OK, I can try some new material...
"Take Jerry Sandusky, Please!"
I find the incessant bigotry at this right-wing blog tiresome. Does it bother you?
Arthur, yes, it bothers me, but that’s not the point. Suppose someone’s mother is a whore, and suppose I bring it up in conversation at every opportunity even if I have to change the subject to do it. You don’t have to be a fan of whores to understand that everyone else would soon find me tiresome and stop talking to me.
"Yes, Kirkland can get tiresome too."
Ok, Mr. Vast Understatement.
Now you clingers know how mainstream America feels about the Volokh Conspirators, the Federalist Societeers, and the other tiresome, disaffected voices of the clingerverse.
Not only doesn't he know the difference between a noun and an adjective, he doesn't you are supposed to capitalize the names of organizations, like political parties.
If the first impeachment had stuck we wouldn't be suffering indictment and impeachment overload.
the first impeachment was because Trump was highlighting the corruption of the Biden family.
demanding an investigation into a "political opponent" was the pretext for the impeachment - though the reality is that the impeachment was for trying to get an investigation of the Biden family corruption
There have been any number of comments and link to other sources explaining the Shokin business.
Apparently you are too stupid or too gullible to accept the facts.
You mean the comments and links to other sources that simply regurgitate the same old tired pretext Biden was able to hide behind to do something personally advantageous?
Talk about gullible.
No need to rely on "same old tired pretext" since Devon Archer just give us some new intel on the Shokin situation:
"Shokin was under control and that whoever the next person that was brought in was -- you know, the fact that he was -- this is the total, this is the narrative spun to me, that Shokin being fired was a -- was not good, because he was like under control as relates to Mykola."
Ah, the wonder of crop quotes. Did your eyes just happen to skip over the very next sentences?
Oh suddenly your concerned about whether some evidence can be verfied or not. How novel.
It was pretty funny to watch right-wingers promote Devon Archer as the last piece to prove Biden "corruption" only to see their star witness refute their every claim. It got so bad Comer had to go on Fox and tell black-is-white lies about Archer's testimony - lies that lasted only until the transcript was release.
You have to be shit-for-brains stupid to buy the Right's Shokin story, willing to ignore a mountain of evidence to believe crude obvious lies. Yet the Right's sheeple still show up here, determined to prove how gullible they are.
You mean the comments and links to other sources that simply regurgitate the same old...
Yeah. It seems the facts don't change, so they do constantly get "regurgitated."
You, OTOH, have it easy. Just make up whatever lies you like and ignore the facts.
"Freeze Peach!"
Tom - remind me - how was Trump hoping to elicit this investigation you're speaking of?
Freeze a peach !
Are you claiming that the Biden family has not been involved in $m of corruption and/or $m of bribery.
Is that the woke bubble talking point you have been schooled on?
I'm not claiming anything. I'm asking you to recall what leverage Trump was hoping to use, in order to convince the Ukrainians to announce an "investigation" into Hunter Biden.
Once you've recalled, you can then proceed to explain why that was an appropriate exercise of presidential power.
Once again, no. In fact, Barr stated that Trump never asked for an investigation of Biden. And we know Trump told Zelensky that he only wanted an announcement of an investigation.
When congressional democrats impeached President Trump, twice, it was inevitable that republicans would seek to use impeachment against democrat politicians.
Was it, though? Are we supposed to just accept that truth plays no role in the republic party anymore?
If Secretary Alexandro Major-Dorkas had any honor he'd resign, but he doesn't, he's even more incompetent than Petey Booty-Judge,
Yes, that is the point that Josh is tacitly accepting.
No, truth no longer plays a role if it ever did. The entire process is driven by political will. The most insidious carriers of this problem are those that say things like this:
"Impeachment ought to be rare," he said, adding, "This is not good for the country."
Impeachment ought to be as frequent or rare as criminal behavior in the office of the presidency.
Hey, Diogenes. Have you tried shining your lamp on the Democrat party?
HEY! You said we’re not allowed to use whataboutism!!!
Not me. More likely, GaslightO.
Truth left the room with the Democrats' first impeachment, did you expect the Republicans to drag it back in again after the Democrats banished it?
Nobody expects the Republicans to have even the most passing relationship with the truth.
No. Republicans could have chosen to concur these were high crimes against the nation without regard to politics. But, they were cowards in the face of potential primary challenges.
Saying that "[t]he indictment alleges that Mr. Trump lied and manipulated people and institutions in trying to shape law and politics in his favor" is like saying that a bank robber manipulated people in trying to shape economic outcomes in his favor. Trump wasn't trying to "shape law and politics": he was - allegedly! - violating established law in order to overturn the results of a completed election.
If you want to argue that what Trump did wasn't illegal, then make that argument; there are other Volokh Conspirators who've been engaged in very productive discussions on exactly that point. Otherwise, you're just saying that Trump should be above the law because Republicans don't like it if he's subject to the law.
There are things worse than the cycle of impeachments and indictments. I full expect to read next summer of Hunter Biden's "suicide," complete with a note absolving his father of all wrongdoing: such a turn of events would generate sympathy and hatred, perhaps enough to shift the election.
So far, and luckily, we haven't seen outright murders by Democrats -- only timely "suicides" by those possessing evidence against Democrats. I use the term "Clintonian Suicide" to describe such behavior. The SEIU Purple Shirts (complete with automatic weapons) at Philadelphia polling places are a different matter: this sort of threatening behavior has been happening for years.
Sigh. Right-wingers are such freaks.....
But there have been political murders by Democrats though they have been street level but they do go up to the Scalise shooting.
'When congressional democrats impeached President Trump, twice, it was inevitable that republicans would seek to use impeachment against democrat politicians'
Yeah, the refrain from the modern right is 'look what you made us do' or 'look what you're going to make us do if you don't stop doing that thing we don't like.' This includes threats of civil war, by the way. If you completely ignore the substantve issues and the way the right is cleaving cult-like to a reality of their own construction - a tribal embrace of propaganda and spin that would have anyone who pointed out the evils of propaganda in the lead up to and during WW1 wondering if people were paying even the slightest bit of attention - then all's fair in love and war and those Democrats brought it on themselves!
'In December 2019, I warned in the Atlantic that Trump's first impeachment could set a dangerous precedent:'
Funny that you didn't warn that Trump's acts were setting dangerous precedents or examined whether they needed a response.
'You can't hold Trump accountable for his bad actions because he and the people who support his bad actions will do more bad things in retaliation' is not in itself a special insight anyone has failed to have already; analysis of the actual reasons why things are like this and the nature of the instigators, on the other hand, must be studioulsy avoided. Just saying 'Russia Russia Russia' and 'Hunter Biden' as shorthand for what is driving Republicans, or for what they are driving, is lazy and even duplicitous.
Nige-bots get irrational when the walls "Start closing in"
"Smith's prosecution, at bottom, accuses Trump of lying to aggrandize his power. Virtually every person who achieved high office engaged in related conduct."
Not only does Blackman get the law wrong routinely, and talk out of his ass without principles: he's also willing to blatantly mislead people about what someone is being prosecuted for.
What a wonderful blog you've curated here, Eugene. Blackman really brings a level of credibility you could've obtained with a handful of stolen lab monkeys and some typewriters.
"...with a handful of stolen lab monkeys and some typewriters."
You seem to be holding your own. Has the lab come to reclaim you yet?
Which reminds me... what alternative, less Josh-infested blogs do you recommend?
You've got it backwards. Each time a new major revelation in the Biden Crime Family investigation occurs, another indictment is issued against Trump the very next day, often for the same charges just made against the Bidens, in order to hide the Bidens' crimes from the news cycle by distraction. Every charge ever made against Trump has been a confession through projection.
Hunter Biden could shoot someone with an ill-legal gun on 5th Avenue and not get (convicted?? not even charged) Would it be out of line to charge Secretary Major-Dork-Ass with 853 charges of First Degree Murder for the migrants killed crossing the border in 2022??
Like I said, if the Secretary had any honor he'd give himself a 38 caliber lobotomy.
Frank
Hunter Biden could walk down 5th Avenue and take a selfie and that photo would be considered sufficient evidence by many on the right that he'd shot someone.
Blackman and Tillman have that white paper ready to go.
That just sounds as if the Republicnas are desperately trying to distract from or match the indictments. And failing hilariously.
There have been no major revelations about Biden. Not so far. Rewarmed Rush Limbaugh Clinton bloviating or no.
The idea that these indictments are getting coordinated somehow is dumb as hell, jgalt. How would that work, exactly? Is Soros involved?
Sarcastr0 1 hour ago
Flag Comment Mute User
There have been no major revelations about Biden. Not so far. Rewarmed Rush Limbaugh Clinton bloviating or no."
Sacastro - you are either living on another planet - locked up in a left wing echo chamber or flat out lying on your knowledge of the level of biden family corruption
What is it about being woke that you have to live in a complete fantasy land
Significant amounts of evidence of biden family corruption. - yet you pretend it doesnt exists
This "Biden Crime Family" crap is developed and promoted by the gape-jaws who brought us
QAnon;
Pizzagate;
"stolen election" nonsense (bamboo ballots; Italygate; truckloads of preprinted ballots; cemetery precincts; etc.);
Seth Rich;
Operation Jade Helm;
the Clinton body count;
former Pres. Obama's Muslim socialist Kenyan communist birth certificate;
Benghazi;
death panels;
the Plandemic;
wind turbine-caused cancers;
the Joe Scarborough murder case;
anti-vaccination kookery;
Wayfairgate;
evolution, the demonic hoax;
COVID-related microchip installations;
and
Jewish space lasers.
But it's a big hit at the Volokh Conspiracy!
What did the signers of the US Constitution intent for the impeachment provision. The language of the Constitution, high crime and misdemeanors, suggest it was a political tool and was meant as a form of a no confidence vote. They may well have been intended to be used more often that it really has been used.
Democrats had no illusions that Trump would be removed in the first impeachment, but it did allow them to expose the corrupt individual he was. I think an impeachment of President Biden would be the opposite. It would placate the MAGA base but show the hollow nature of the Republican party.
“meant as a form of a no confidence vote.”
No evidence of this at all.
Blackman's laughably unprincipled devotion to Donald Trump, and his willingness to prostitute "the law" to defend Trump, demonstrate the absurdity of arguing that there is one true ascertainable meaning of the Constitution for all time. Not when there are "scholars" like Blackman around to make it say whatever they wish it to say.
Around the first impeachment*, one issue never satisfactorily resolved was the ouster of Amb. Yovanovitch. It's pretty clear why she was smeared and had to leave her post - but there seemed to have been no further inquiry into why she was told she had to leave immediately and why her security could not be assured thereafter. Where and whom did that threat come from?
* My fellow yidden may recall, "why with other presidents do we not impeach even once, yet with this president we impeach twice?"
"We do not know where Trump's indictment will lead. But I agree with Goldsmith that it will likely be terrible."
100% accurate.
Pretty sure it will lead to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Guess it depends on what your definition of "Turrible" (HT C. Barkley) is. I'm thinking avoiding WW3/Stopping the 1000's of deaths at the Border/More Anti-Baby-Killing Surpremes would be "Turrible" for those who want WW3/Dead Illegal Immigrants/Babies
Frank
The prosecution of violent right-wing bigot Robert Bowers was terrible, in several ways . . . but it was the right thing to do.
Clingers' views may vary.
What about the violent right-wing Jerry Sandusky?
A side question for people into betting and odds:
What's the book on Mark Meadows being Smith's Dean?
Convicted Felon and all-around (redacted) stain John Weasle-y Dean? Doubt it, more like HR Haldeman, as Meadows was Chief of Staff like Haldeman was, isn’t a Shyster like JWD, and didn’t double cross Milhouse (Only reason Dean’s alive today is Gordon Liddy wasn’t ordered to kill him) Dean does have some Cujones though, embezzling Mil-houses Cam-pain funds to pay for his honeymoon (I know, he left an “IOU”) Frank
From the Groove Yard of the Old Gray Lady this hit from Seymour Hersch (remember when the Marxist Stream Media got it right occasionally?) WASHINGTON, June 18, 1973—John W. Dean 3d has told Fed eral investigators that he kept $14,000 in 1972 Republican campaign funds and at one time “borrowed” $4,000 to finance his wedding and honeymoon, sources close to the Watergate case said today.
The sources said that Mr. Dean subsequently returned the $4,000—which he said he se cured with his personal i.o.u.—and placed all the cash in a special trust fund set up after his break with the White House. The trust fund “is not in John’s name,” one well‐informed official said. He added, how ever, that “the Feds [prosecu tors] know where the money is.”
Gosh, Frank, that’s even more irrelevant than your usual babble. No one is surprised that Dean was crooked. As with Trump’s administration, it’s the default assumption about anyone in that cesspool of a White House.
But will Meadows be Smith’s Dean? The one dramatic witness to testify to all the criminality he saw. That he saw it is a given. After all the posturing, excuses and pretense, even Trump's most abject bootlicker here knows he's a two-bit crook.
So will Meadows testify for Smith?
That “45” believed/believes Parkinsonian Joe wasn’t erected legitimately? That the Earth revolves around the Sun? Great, what crime is that?
Frank
The point is that Mark Meadows knows where all the bodies are buried. Meadows is not a neophyte politician, and he knows that Trump lost. What more he likely knows that Trump also knew this and so Trump cooked up a scheme to stay in power even after losing. Meadows is the most likely person to spike Trump's calm he believed he had won. This is important because Jack Smith is not just looking at the attempt to keep power but is also looking at wire fraud. Was Trump collection money for the suggested purpose of fighting election fraud and then pocketing the money.
Meadows is also a prime witness for the documents case. As CoS it would have been Meadows job to return all the Presidential documents. He would know if Trump was keeping documents he had no right to keep.
I don't really know that Meadows will testify for the prosecution. If he does, then he will be the equivalent of a John Dean.
How did that work out for H. R. Haldeman, Frank? IIRC he was sentenced to two and a half to eight years in prison, subsequently commuted to one to four years.
That Mark Meadows is not identified in the Trump indictment as a co-conspirator likely indicates that he has reached a cooperation agreement with DOJ.
If one thinks carefully, action and reaction are interchangeable parts, and what appears to be temporal ordering of events is, in fact, only a matter of psychological grounding.
Indeed. Unbelievable how much a scrambled egg sloshing around reassembling itself can make a fork move! And when the shell pieces levitate themselves out of the trash and head back toward the bowl, well....
I'm simply pointing out that newton's laws to not imply the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which was omitted from the post.
Are you saying the passage of time is all psychological?
Once mankind achieves immortality, it will be the death of time as we know it.
What an extremely poor way to make a valid point.
The problem with the Trump indictments is not that there is no basis to prosecute him, it's that it is being done on a background of partisanship and manipulation of both the justice system and the media.
The old saw that "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion" comes to mind.
Query: how many people here believe the authorities that the Secret Service, and whatever other security services are in the White House, are clueless about where that bag of cocaine came from?
This whole column is a glaring example of Murc’s Law, the commonly held fallacy that only Democrats have agency in American politics.
Pelosi tried to avoid impeaching Trump but had no choice once Col. Vindman presented compelling evidence of soliciting a bribe in kind from Zelensky. But I suppose a lot of you will say that, “Pretend to investigate Biden or I’ll stop your aid.” is protected speech. If GOPs did tit for tat and waited for clear evidence of an actual crime or misdemeanor we wouldn’t have all this impeachment talk. During the second impeachment the GOP line became don’t impeach, you can prosecute once he’s out of office. Now you’re arguing he should have been impeached instead. Make up your minds. If a hypothetical prez shot a passerby on Fifth Avenue, just when could we prosecute him?
Garland and DoJ appear to have been anything but eager to indict Trump. But with the evidence that’s piled up, what choice do they really have? If y’all are so opposed to a prez being impeached, or an ex-prez indicted, maybe you shouldn’t have nominated a known career criminal.
You quote McConnell saying, “Impeachment ought to be rare, … This is not good for the country.” Have you any evidence McConnell has ever given a damn about the good of the country?
Except that the Inspector General had to revise its rules in order to accept the Vindeman's testimony. And the White House immediately released the transcript of the call and MOST people listening did not consider the call to be "compelling evidence" that the President was soliciting a bribe. Instead, the public heard the President trying to get the Ukrainian president to release evidence that Biden, as Vice-President, extorted the Ukrainian government into firing a prosecutor that was investigating Burisma.
That's what soliciting a bribe is.
I just re-read the transcript of Trump's call with Zelenskyy. He asks for Zelenskyy's cooperation in investigating allegations involving CrowdStrike and a server located in Ukraine. He also said the following:
"There's a lot oftalk about Biden's sonthat Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it ... it sounds horrible."
I know that Adam Schiff says that there was an implied threat. But I don't see it and I think most people reading it won't see it. So Trump wasn't attempting to bribe Zelenskyy and he wasn't extorting cooperation from Zelenskyy by threatening anything. The only crime referenced in the call was Trump's reference to Biden's bragging about how he extorted cooperation from the previous government.
Weird how you omit the part where there's a demand for a quid pro quo.
Not to mention the fact that Trump actually withheld the quid pending the quo.
If charging Pres. Trump is justifiable based on the evidence, he should be charged. If charging a different President is justifiable under the evidence, they should be charged. If there is not evidence to charge that other President, but they are going to be charged anyway, that is a problem. But it doesn't justifying ignoring the rule of law out of fear that the other side would otherwise ignore the rule of law.
That sounds nice in a vacuum. But justice also has to appear just. When the son of the current president gets a sweetheart deal that no one else gets or would get, and when cocaine is found in the White House, and that same son has a history of using cocaine, and then the security authorities for what is supposed to be the most secure building in the world claim they have no clue where the cocaine came from, and meanwhile the front-runner in the upcoming race against the current president is prosecuted, then that undermines confidence in the judicial system. Even if the front-runner is clearly guilty (as I believe he is).
'and when cocaine is found in the White House, and that same son has a history of using cocaine,'
This remains unhinged.
Let's see: Was cocaine found in the White house?
Yup.
Does the President's son have a history of using Cocaine?
Yup.
So, what's unhinged about it? I mean, it's not dead to rights, but there seems to be something like a circumstantial case there.
Oh, not dead to rights, ya think?
Sure, if nobody else in Washington DC, or nobody who visits Washington DC, ever used or uses cocaine, you might have a circumstantial case. Might.
This is a joke, a literal joke, you decided to pretend to take seriously, like some edgelord on 4chan making a joke about ordering children from a pizzeria. This one might not turn into a quasi-religious cult, but who knows?
So whose coke was it?
The premier investigative and protective agencies in the world can't determine whose it is and how it got into one of the most protected buildings in the world and we're supposed to believe that no one knows?
How should I know? I realise that your guiding light is that the absence of evidence is all the evidence you need, but it's dumb.
Except that very little of what you just said is actually true. In other words, the thing that's undermining confidence in the judicial system is right-wing media's lies. There's not a lot anyone can do about that, other than the right-wing media itself. I mean, I guess its consumers could smarten up, but I see little chance of that.
This isn't really new, a fourth to a third of Americans have always been and will always be retarded. I feel like there was a time when the network news at least made it seem as though there were a largely objective arbiter of truth, so that even the retards trusted it to some extent. But that was a brief exception to the general rule of lots of random misinformation flying around the country, much of it malicious, and the rest of us just having to navigate around the significant minority of Americans who retardedly lap it up.
Bored Lawyer, that's a full-on conspiracy theory. You're citing lack of evidence as evidence there is a coverup.
That'd be thrown out of court if offered as an argument.
You and I and everyone else here all know that if someone was identified as the WH cocaine culprit, and that person's name was not "Hunter Biden," the cries of "coverup" would be just as loud. He's a patsy; he's being framed to protect Hunter Biden. Hell, even if this other person confessed, he was threatened or bribed to do so by the administration, to protect Hunter Biden.
only among uninformed, worthless, gullible, disaffected people
Since my judgement is clouded by partisanship and tribalism, I take cues from non-Republicans and non-conservatives. I was shocked when I was listening to Matt Tiabbi and Walter Kern talking about the revelation of the $10 million payment to Hunter and Joe and Kern (I think) said that this may be the biggest political scandal in the US ever and that Joe should face impeachment.
Of course, because of partisanship and tribalism, the Dems will deny the evidence, refuse to admit wrongdoing, and count on the major media to shield the party and its leadership (and the Bidens) from the consequences. This will work for Dems; but it will not work for Republicans or Independents.
Since my judgement is clouded by partisanship and tribalism, I take cues from [pre-approved propagandists who don't identify as "conservative" but have for whatever reason made a pretty good living saying what conservatives like to hear].
FTFY.
Of course you will try to make up for the complete lack of evidence by claiming the evidence is being ignored and that the media is protecting Biden. See also all the evidence of the election being stolen.
'Matt Tiabbi and Walter Kern' are not really doing much for your biases, though.
Though utterly giving over your judgement to them also seems not like something you're actually doing. No one turns off their judgement claiming 'bias.'
You are either having a bit of fun, or trying to fool people.
There was no "revelation" of a $10 million payment to Hunter and Joe. There was a claim made by an anonymous person that someone told him that such payments had been made — but, conveniently, that person also supposedly told him that the payments had been so cleverly concealed that nobody would be able to find proof of them.
Even if this wholly anonymous person was 100% reliable and honest — something which we can't possibly know since he's anonymous — he doesn't know anything. He's just passing along a story he heard.
When congressional Democrats impeached President Trump, twice, it was inevitable that Republicans would seek to use impeachment against democrat politicians. And now that the Democratic presidential administration has indicted President Trump, it will inevitably come to pass that Republicans will seek to indict Democratic politicians.
Well, if you want to play "He started it," maybe start with Clinton's impeachment.
And before you assume the "the Democratic presidential administration has indicted President Trump," you might want to look for some evidence that it was all Biden's doing, rather than that Donald Trump, a man famous for his lack of integrity, actually committed crimes worth being indicted for.
Turnip would not be under indictment in your alternate reality because Big Baby was always going to be more trouble for prosecutors than he was worth. He’s only under indictment now because he became too large a problem to ignore.
“For want of a sense of humor, the kingdom of cheap-ass grifting was lost.”
Prof. Blackman’s reasoning.
(Republicans) The Democrats made me do it.
Professor Blackman claims that it is “inevitable’ Republicans will use their power to enforce the law to go after their political opponents regardless of evidence.
What next? Mr. Trump shoots a random veteran on the street on Fifth Avenue, and Mr. Blackman claims on this blog that since Biden’s policies in Ukraine led to American veterans volunteering there and dying in combat, it’s only inevitable that Republican actions would also lead to the death of veterans.
After all, fair is fair, like is like, and Biden started it, right? You can hardly blame Trump for the inevitable, right?
Right?
Another year, another year mired at South Texas College of Law Houston.
Josh, I'd be interested to hear your response to Ilya's view that, notwithstanding any long-term deleterious effects the indictments may have on our democracy, the effects of not indicting Trump would have been worse. The responsibility for our being placed in this no-win situation lies with Trump.