The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Dangers of Giving Trump Impunity are Far Worse than those of Prosecuting Him
Giving presidents impunity for using force and fraud to try to nullify election results is far worse than any potential risk of prosecuting Trump.

Some criticisms of the indictment of Donald Trump for his efforts to overturn the outcome of the 2020 election turn on specific legal arguments to the effect that Trump may not actually be guilty of the crimes charged. I address some of those issues here and here. But there are also consequentialist concerns to the effect that prosecuting Trump might weaken confidence in the criminal justice system or trigger a slippery slope where other former presidents and high officials get prosecuted. In my view, such concerns are overblown. More importantly, they downplay or ignore the potentially awful consequences of not prosecuting Trump.
Harvard law Prof. Jack Goldsmith expresses slippery slope concerns about the prosecuting Trump in a recent New York Times op ed. He worries that the prosecution will deepen Republicans' already negative view of the Justice Department and "inspire ever more aggressive tit-for-tat investigations of presidential actions in office by future Congresses and by administrations of the opposing party, to the detriment of sound government." Josh Blackman agrees, and predicts future GOP administrations will try to prosecute Democratic politicians. He warns the consequences "will likely be terrible."
Maybe. But letting Trump off the hook is likely to be far worse. If Trump - or any president - is granted impunity for using force and fraud to try to stay in power after losing an election, future presidents could well repeat Trump's experiment. Lots of ambitious politicians would love to stay in power indefinitely. And if there are no penalties for trying, why not have at it? Some of those future leaders might even contrive to put together a more effective scheme of election nullification than the ramshackle scheme pursued by Trump.
If one of the reasons for not prosecuting Trump is that he has millions of followers who would be angry or lose confidence in the justice system as a result, that would incentivize future losing presidents to repeat Trump's Big Lie tactics. The more you rile up your supporters, the greater the chance of getting impunity for any crimes you might commit in office! That, in turn, would lead to more delegitimation of political and legal institutions, not less.
It is sometimes argued that Trump's misdeeds should be subject to political accountability, not criminal sanctions. This argument has a number of general flaws, including its neglect of the need for retribution for heinous crimes (merely losing office is not punishment enough), and the problems of polarization and widespread voter ignorance (which may prevent the electorate from assessing the situation correctly and acting on that knowledge). Partisan bias and polarization often lead voters to be excessively tolerant of the misdeeds of their own party's leaders, especially if punishing them means handing a victory to the opposing party.
Exclusive reliance on political accountability is particularly inappropriate in the case of Trump's election-related wrongdoing. The whole point of Trump's crime was in fact to undermine electoral accountability - the very process that is supposed to keep him in check. The threat of losing an election is not much of a deterrent for schemes to overturn elections.
Compared to this danger, the concerns raised by Goldsmith and Blackman are minor. We already have plenty of investigations of the executive by Congress, when the latter is controlled by the opposing party. Some are meritorious, others not. Increasing their number strikes me as not much of a problem. It might even have some good effects if it uncovers more executive wrongdoing.
Politically motivated prosecution is a more serious concern. But if the charges lack merit, powerful politicians have the resources and connections to secure topnotch lawyers who can help them beat the (unjustified) rap. If, on the other hand, they are justified, punishing more politicians may not be a bad thing. There is too much impunity in high places.
I do recognize the danger created by a situation where we have far too many laws on the books, and as a result almost anyone can potentially be charged with something. Democratic and Republican politicians could potentially endlessly prosecute each other for various petty offenses. I suspect, however, mutual deterrence will limit this problem, because members of the political class don't want to end up with mutually assured destruction. Moreover, truly petty prosecutions (e.g. - prosecuting a president for minor tax violations or for using marijuana in violation of federal law) are likely to backfire politically.
In addition, high-ranking politicians can reduce their exposure by being especially careful to avoid illegality. If political leaders start having to lead squeaky-clean lives, I will not shed many tears for them. Alternatively, fear of petty prosecution might even lead political leaders to repeal some of the many dubious criminal laws on the books. If so, that would be a great outcome - and a win for the rule of law.
Finally, the concern that prosecuting Trump will lead his supporters to take a more negative view of the Justice Department and the justice system generally is outweighed by the likely impact on public confidence of giving Trump impunity for his crimes. If the holder of the most powerful office in the land isn't punished for trying to nullify election results through fraud, that cannot but damage public confidence in the legal system among the large majority of Americans who recognize Trump did in fact lose the 2020 election. And if Trump gets off even as relatively low-level January 6 rioters get punished, that is likely to create (justified) perceptions that there is a double standard under which the powerful get more lenient treatment than ordinary citizens.
Perhaps, as Goldsmith and conservative commentator Ramesh Ponnuru argue, it would have been better if Trump had been convicted at his second impeachment trial. I myself advocated conviction, and agree with Ponnuru that the Senate committed a grave error in acquitting Trump.
But the failure of the impeachment process makes it all the more necessary to pursue criminal charges. Indeed, GOP Senate leader Mitch McConnell held out the possibility of criminal prosecution as one justification for his vote to acquit Trump in the impeachment process:
Impeachment, conviction, and removal are a specific intra-governmental safety valve. It is not the criminal justice system, where individual accountability is the paramount goal.
Indeed, Justice Story specifically reminded that while former officials were not eligible for impeachment or conviction, they were "still liable to be tried and punished in the ordinary tribunals of justice."
We have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation. And former Presidents are not immune from being held accountable by either one.
Time for some "individual accountability" for Trump through the criminal justice system!
In sum, the risks of not prosecuting Trump are far more severe than those of holding him accountable for his election-related crimes.
These considerations may not matter much if you think Trump is legally innocent of the charges against him. But if not, it would be a terrible mistake to grant him impunity from prosecution out of dubious consequentialist concerns. The risks of letting him off the hook are far worse.
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Yada, yada yada.
We can't let Drumpf get away with charges so serious there was nothing specific available so we had to indict him under vague 'conspiracy' bs.
If Congress is going to allow presidents to attempt to steal elections by not impeaching and removing (with disqualification for office), we may need to pass laws that more specifically address stealing elections.
Good Idea, what sentence would Parkinsonian Joe get for stealing the one in 0-20"?
Well, since that's not what Trump did, do you have a claim relevant to the current situation?
That there aren’t laws clearly addressing Trump’s crimes is an indictment of the legal system and a reflection of the unprecedented nature of his crimes. We’ve had no experience with coups until Trump. A failed coup, left unpunished, is practice.
‘Unprecedented’ ‘coup’ = talking to Pence about his election fraud theory. Napolean, Brutus, Hitler; none of these pussies had the balls but Trump. This is a man who takes that extra decisive step!
The defense of Trump is really solidifying around the fact that he's completely shit. Also, vote for Trump!
If there are no laws against what he did doesn't that mean they aren't crimes? Or do we punish people for what should be crimes?
He didn't say that there were no laws. He said that there were no laws "clearly addressing" Trump's crimes. That is, there are broad laws against fraud (e.g., what he's charged with), but there's nothing that says, explicitly, "A multi-faceted scheme involving threats, bribery, and fraud, to get oneself crowned as president without actually getting voted into office is a felony."
So a law that is so vague that it's enforcement can be arbitrary? Doesn't sound valid to me.
There are "no laws clearly addressing Trump's crimes" because nothing he did was criminal, or even remotely wrong.
At least, if anything Trump did was wrong, pretty much every single Democrat politician in the country needs to be put in jail for their worse crimes.
Starting with supporting the BLM riots
You watched a four year coup - in fact it went longer than that, where they tried to remove Trump, before he took office, and after he had finished his term. Starting with HiLIARy making the false claim that the election was stolen from her, because of Russian collusion, aided by the DOJ, including the FIB, and the CIA, filing false applications for warrants to spy on his campaign, including him.
With a two year "investigation" of something that the highest levels of government KNEW was completely fabricated.
Now THAT was a coup, and the perpetrators got away with it all.
It's circular reasoning -- and rather dangerous.
Anyone remember when the Dems eliminated the filibuster for Federal Judge appointments -- and the warning of the precedent it would set? Well then the GOP used this precedent to get its SCOTUS nominees through. Anyone remember how many of the recent SCOTUS nominees got 60 votes?
Ilia should read the portion of Profiles in Courage (which JFK did NOT write) about the Senator who voted against the Johnson impeachment, and why.
If this garbage isn't stopped quickly, the next time the GOP comes into power, there will be a true witchhunt. Hillary will go to jail for filling out some airline reservation paperwork wrong. That's where this is going and it needs to be STOPPED!!!
Would it really be that bad to hold politicians to a higher standard?
bla bla bla
Oggy oggy oggy
Ilya yet again showing his support for political prosecutions and Soviet show trials. If it wasn't for double standards he'd have none at all.
So you're for impunity.
Most of us are not trump fans and believe if he did something illegal he should be prosecuted.
What we dont like is the extreme double standard displayed by progressives and the dismissals of Biden family corruption, dismissals of the DOJ corruption, etc.
Your automatic certainty that any prosecution of Trump means that there is a double standard or something improper pretty much contradicts your first sentence.
I'm sorry demanding evidence, not grandstanding, threats and lying, is a double standard to you.
The 'I don't like Trump but I howl persecution every time he gets a hangnail' is a constituency manifestly without the perspective to do comparisons. Dems are bad comes first.
Which also makes me skeptical they actually don't like Trump, since Dems are bad is his jam.
Hey, you’re the expert experienced mind reader. Tell him what he’s really thinking.
I am a mind reader. He believes Biden is guilty and does not care about the evidence. I suspect he also believes Trump did nothing wrong and also does not care about the evidence. Certainly there are partisans on the other side who think Biden did nothing wrong and Trump is guilty, and don’t care about the evidence. I’m only interested in those who judge each case separately on the merits based on the evidence.
My take: 1) the evidence overwhelmingly establishes Trump tried to steal the election (be it knowingly or delusionally) and 2) Hunter Biden used his father’s name to gain access but the evidence does not establish that Joe did anything illegal or improper (besides not recusing himself in Ukraine policy and any other place where Hunter was doing business).
Your "takes" are completely bass-ackwards.
What would you call inventing the Russia collusion scandal? All involved knew it was a hoax, yet pushed it anyway as true.
Was that election interference?
Put HRC, Obama, and Biden on trial, and then maybe you'll have some moral authority.
Trump tried to collude. He thought he was colluding.
When he announced, a few days before what his people thought would be a meeting (at the Trump Tower!) with Russian government officials with dirt on Hillary Clinton: “In a few days you will hear some very interesting things about Hilary Clinton!” — what do you think he was talking about?
Spinach Chin : What would you call inventing the Russia collusion scandal? All involved knew it was a hoax, yet pushed it anyway as true
I’ve asked this before and have yet to receive a coherent answer back, but let’s try again: What is the “Russia collusion hoax” anyway?
1. The Justice Department Inspector General found the initial investigation of ties between Russia and the Trump campaign was warranted. So that’s not the R.C.H.
2. Mueller’s appointment as Special Counsel came after Trump bragged about firing Comey to Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.” After that, a special counsel was inevitable; no R.C.H. can be found there either.
3. Mueller was actually one of the best special counsels in the whole sordid history of the species. He was quick, didn’t leak to the media, and proved excessively conservative in his findings. No R.C.H. can be found in his conduct.
4. And his investigation uncovered so much unsettling detail. You had Don Jr. saying (in writing) he’d welcome secret help from the Russian government for Daddy’s campaign, you had Trump’s campaign head giving secret briefings to a listed Russian spy, you had Trump’s fixer Cohen secretly negotiating a massive business deal with Kremlin officials during the campaign, you had Trump associates discussing a bribe to Putin to sweeten that deal, you had Trump lying when asked about his Russian business dealings during the campaign, you had Trump’s son-in-law asking if he could use Russia’s secure communication lines to talk to Moscow – just so his own government couldn’t hear.
On and on and on. The complete list is much longer. There was never any lack of things discovered, which makes Mueller’s brisk investigation even more remarkable. No R.C.H. to be seen.
5. And that includes this : Trump asked Michael Cohen to suppress a sex tape circulating around Moscow. He used Russian businessman Giorgi Rtskhiladze as a go-between, who reported back : ‘Stopped flow of tapes from Russia but not sure if there’s anything else. Just so you know … .’ Both men testified before the grand jury. For the record, everyone thinks the tape was faked by Russian criminals, but still, no R.C.H.
So you have a legitimate investigation conducted by legitimate appointees in a legitimate manner who uncovered scads of legitimate grounds to investigate after getting underway.
Where is the “Russia collusion hoax” in all this ?!?
The DOJ says the DOJ did nothing wrong, so nothing to see here. Got it. Very convincing!
Meanwhile, back in reality, can you imagine if Don Jr actually took millions of dollars from Russia? Just put yourself back in those days of breathless hype and innuendo, the witch hunt. Trump would have been impeached and actually removed from office with help from Republicans. There might have actually been some kind of "there there" to the politically calculated hoax, which, any sane person could see at the time was an extremely outlandish conspiracy theory concocted for political reasons.
Also, the whole affair was one big leaky sieve from beginning to end. I found it really amusing how media outlets would trot out this bold-faced lie of "no leaks!" periodically, in between or right in conjunction with endless reporting about developments in the saga according to "people familiar with the matter." Grb still riding that one is just sad really. It's probably time to let that one go, maybe you can suggest it to your ShareBlue manager. 🙂
M L : The DOJ says the DOJ did nothing wrong, so nothing to see here.
1. Durham agreed with the DOJ Inspector General. His only caveat was the Trump-Russia investigation should have been “partial” not “full”. Given all the Trump-Russia connections discovered in the investigation (which you pointedly ignore), I think Durham comes out on the short end of that argument.
2. Meanwhile, back in reality, Jared Kushner got a two billion dollar payout from the Saudis after leaving the White House. Of course, just before he stepped into that building he went on a worldwide begging tour for cash to offset a failed investment that threatened the survival of his business (666 Madison Ave, if you want to look it up). He pleaded for money from the government of Qatar, the former foreign minister of the United Arab Emirates and businesses directly linked to the rulers in Beijing. Timing-wise, Kushner was leading the Trump transition at the exact same moment he was begging around the globe. When Trump sided with the Saudis over our ally Qatar soon after, the government of the latter was convinced it was because they didn’t pony up to Jared.
All of which leads to this advice, ML : A Trump bootlicker like yourself should never whatabout on corruption. The inevitable blowback will be just too humiliating.
1. So again - the DOJ says the DOJ did nothing wrong. Got it. Very convincing!
2. I'm all for an investigation into the matter of Kushner and his Saudi money. 100 percent! I won't dismiss you for blatant whatabouting, bringing up a totally different topic, as you are doing here.
Meanwhile, back in reality, Eric Trump actually said "We don't rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia." So? Other than possibly explaining the Russians' thought process in selectin Trump as their horse to back, it's irrelevant. The legally relevant question was: did Trump's campaign illegally conspire with Russian government interests to interfere in the 2016 election? Mueller didn't find any evidence to charge anyone in the Trump campaign with anything like that, though he (and many others) did find a coordinated effort by Russian intelligence to interfere in the 2016 election to help Trump win, and further that the Trump campaign welcomed that help.
No "hoax" about it.
My my. Did Eric actually say that? I believe what you meant to say was that some author selling a book CLAIMED that Eric said that, a claim which Eric denied. And even if he had said some bluffing bullshit in a sales presentation or to some guy drinking beer on the golf course, so what? The most intense and thorough investigation in all of human history didn't find any evidence of any loans out of Russia. (No, There Isn’t Evidence That Trump Owes Money to Russia, New York Times, Oct. 13, 2020).
I thought Mueller found that some Russian internet trolls posted Bernie memes and sought to play both sides, generally, to foster political division in the United States? PIC: https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2017-11/1/16/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane-02/sub-buzz-23527-1509569553-6.png A pretty weak effort on the Russians' part, compared to the dazzling success toward that same goal that was achieved by the bumbling FBI "investigating" those Facebook memes and the rest of the malicious apparatchiks propagating the outlandish Trump-Russia conspiracy theory for political purposes.
Oh, and then Mueller also said that Russians "appear" (really neat qualifier he used) to have hacked the DNC emails, of course any competent hacker would leave no trace and only leave false bread crumbs, but anyway.
Really?
The long awaited Durham report showed that HiLIARy came up with the idea that the Russians™ colluded with Trump, to steal the election, as a way to distract from her bathroom server efforts to avoid FOIA, exposing classified documents, and destroying 33,000 emails under subpoena.
0bama and Biden knew about the scheme from the beginning.
The fact that Mueller, a dep state functionary, and fifteen Trump-hating lawyers couldn't come up with any evidence that there was collusion, is proof that it was a bogus claim. A hoax.
It. Wasn't. A. Hoax.
No. Whether it was a hoax or not, it was not "election interference."
It wasn't a hoax, it was just make believe. Go ahead, die on that hill.
David N proves my point
In spite of overwhelming evidence of a russian gate being a hoax - he is unable to come to grips with the factual evidence
Same with Nige, Sacastro, Queen, Randal
Unable to view the evidence objectively due to bias
There is, of course, no evidence of Russiagate being a hoax. The exact opposite is the case, as the non-partisan Mueller investigation and the bipartisan (but led by the GOP) Senate Select Committee on Intelligence found.
A few specific individual claims were disproven; others, no evidence was found to support them. Obviously random things people said on Twitter might not have been true. But the basic outline — that Russia wanted Trump to win, that Russia worked to help Trump win, that specific people in Trump's orbit had extensive contacts with Russia, and that Trump was aware of and welcomed Russia's help — was confirmed. (Nobody could find an explicit quid pro quo — Trump saying "You help me and I'll help you" — but why would one expect to find such a thing, even if it happened?)
The extreme claim that Trump only won because of Russia is in no way confirmed, but that hardly makes the fact of Russia's involvement a hoax.
" ‘I don’t like Trump but I howl persecution every time he gets a hangnail’"
What part of political appointees charging the leader of the opposition party with dozens of felonies is the equivalent of getting a hang nail to you?
This more than anything else. “Something must stick, eventually.”
It doesn’t matter if it was actually illegal or not, indeed, the prohibition on open ended investigations presumes The King might very well find something to tag an opponent with, which is the goal!
You may have found something legitimate, finally. Ummm, hooray? You got your political opponent!
Your umpteenth effort using the government’s power of investigation against a political opponent may finally bear fruit!
Nobody sees this?
Something must stick! Keep at it, lads!
It doesn’t matter if some of it is legitimate when you dig deep enough. You’re not supposed to be digging! And yes, the irony of it on Donald “Lock her up!” Trump is not lost. Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.
He won’t go down in history well. You all will go down worse. Yes, you read that right, though it may take decades for the evil principles to die off.
Read the indictment. It includes real crimes, and real facts that fit the real criminal laws it cites.
A couple of non-Trump supporters, in the legal profession - Johnathon Turley and Alan Dershowitz - say the charges are stretching those statutes beyond the limits of believability.
It is a safe bet that all these charges will be rejected when they get to an honest appeals court.
But, by then the damage intended will have been inflicted, which is all they want, anyway.
Even those of us who are Biden fans think if he did something illegal he should be prosecuted.
It's only a double standard if we don't require evidence for both prior to indictment and prosecution. When/if there is evidence of "Biden family corruption" let us know.
The whole "DOJ Corruption" thing, so far, looks like a conspiracy theory ginned up as cover for Trump's indictment so that the MAGA crowd can pretend it isn't real. One "big lie" to support another.
What evidence would you deem sufficient?
What evidence does Shawn consider sufficient -
obviously not - bank records, emails, witness testimony, etc
I can't read everything. So could you provide some specific examples of the documents available that demonstrate that President Biden did what you say? Thanks.
What bank records show that Joe Biden received a penny from any illicit source? What emails show that Joe Biden received a penny from any illicit source? What witness testimony shows that Joe Biden received a penny from any illicit source? What bank records, emails, or witness testimony reveal that Joe Biden took any actions as a quid pro quo for any payments?
Who you mean "Most of Us" Pale Face???
Most of us are not trump fans and believe if he did something illegal he should be prosecuted.
Bullshit. You are a dedicated Trump fan who doesn't want to see your god prosecuted.
Yes, there should be impunity, because he did nothing wrong.
Punishment is for illegal acts. Trump committed none.
Your co-Conspirators and their disaffected right-wing fans seem to disagree with you, Prof. Somin.
You should find or start a libertarian (or libertarianish) blog and disassociate yourself from right-wing authoritarianism, backwardness, viewpoint-driven, censorship, and the clingerverse.
Man, "Reverend" I'll stop calling you Jerry Sandusky if you'd just, umm, pull a "Lane Price"
No, don't auto-erotic-asphyxiate yourself (not drowned, there's a difference)
What if "45"'s right and all the Marxist Stream Media is wrong?? (HT that Poindexter D. Brooks, that's a first)
If there was some "Malfeasance"(HT M. Gunderson) in Fulton/Bucks/Maricopa/Clark/Wayne Counties (wouldn't be the first time) maybe "45" would have maintained his near 1/2 million vote erection night leads in those States?
I'm content to have an 0-20 "re-do" without the "Vid" (Although They're already talking about this year's new shot) maybe Parkinsonian Joe can dig up Bo, and wear his bloody shirt, (did I tell You Bo died in Iraq?? or was it Afghanistan (neither, try Bethesda Maryland)
Frank
What Somin said...
And McConnell's opposition to impeachment now turns out to be a stopped clock that is finally telling the correct time.
Has McConnell actually come out and said that indictment is the right way to go since the indictments actually came out?
I wouldn't have put it past McChelonian to say during impeachment that he was in favour of criminal charges and now saying that as Trump was acquitted in the Senate, nothing further should have been done.
OK, more a clock that's wrong by 6 hours, or mostly a clock that always shows the time that's most advantageous to Mitch McConnell. Currently that seems to be saying as little as possible, which Trump is of course unhappy about.
...and don't forget to tune in at 3 AM EDT for Open Thread Thursday as we continue our trip down Speculation Street and the Hypothetical Highway.
What are the odds on the Volokh Conspiracy publishing a vile racial slur during tomorrow's open mike session? One in three? One in four? Or, because it's been roughly a week since this blog most recently published a racial slur (unless I missed one or two) . . . closer to 50-50?
No official should have immunity. But... that first indictment, 34 counts of falsifying business records in relation to Stormy Daniels, sure smacks of "we need to find something to prosecute him for, and we don't care what." And that sets the tone for the other indictments.
Sleazy sleazebag turns out to be sleazy. Sure, he'd pay a porn star hush money, but surely he'd draw the line at anything crooked!
Putting aside the question for the moment of whether Trump's offenses were "crimes" at all (a question the current Supreme Court would answer in the negative should it get there, I suspect), they are "heinous" only in that they offend the delicate sensibilities of our effete ruling class. No, that's not quite right. The acts themselves don't offend them; Trump does. Had these identical acts been done by a Democrat, there would be no prosecution; nor would anyone be demanding one (least of all, Somin.)
These latest indictments are reminiscent against the ludicrous indictment of Gov. Rick Perry in Texas. Essentially, they try to make political arm-twisting a crime. And if unorthodox constitutional interpretations were criminal, Somin would have been jailed long ago.
What Somin cannot admit, perhaps even to himself, is that he personally detests Trump so much, no price is too high for his destruction. Even if that price is the dissolution of the nation. Somin is obviously not a religious man (he seems to have no philosophical mooring at all), but he really should give another (a first?) listen to Thomas More's "devil speech" about stopping at nothing to bring down the devil (Trump, in the mind of Somin and his ilk). The patron saint of lawyers is still teaching us today.
St. Thomas More, pray for us.
Never more in need than in this season.
Well said.
Democratic politicians have been indicted, tried, convicted and jailed. The ones who aren't? It's usually because there's no evidence. (Not always; but then Trump skated on the obstruction of justice reported by Mueller.) Conversely, every Republican president elected in my lifetime has had important members of his administration who needed pardons; all they learned from Nixon was plausible deniability. (Trump appears not to have quite learned that lesson, nor even the idea of a Nixonian retreat from politics.)
Wake me up when Democrats organize an insurrection to overturn a presidential election. Don't bother me with the details of your spontaneously appearing stigmata or the weeping from your statue of St. Trump.
They literally invented a Russia collision hoax, and staged a bogus impeachment for something they knew was a hoax. All for the purpose of forcing Trump out of power.
It's only ok because it was done by democrats.
Spinach 'whatabout' Chin. Can you make any argument without referencing some other incident?
He gave an example of Democrat wrong-doing that wasn't punished in answer to Magister's bogus claim. It wasn't a whataboutism. Try to keep up.
No, he didn't.
"Just because it's make believe, doesn't mean it was a hoax"
David N - like most of the other progressives posting here is unable to evaluate the evidence objectively.
In spite of overwhelming evidence - they are unable to grasp that the russiangate hoax was initiated by the hillary campaign.
1) It was not a hoax.
2) It was not initiated by the Hillary campaign.
3) And, of course, even if you were right about those things, lying about one's opponent is not "wrongdoing" in a legal sense. 100% of politicians do that.
Also, that you think I'm a "progressive" just shows how really truly deeply stupid you are.
Eating lead paint as a child is how you end up as a disgraced ex-Marine like Vinni.
Republican controlled Senate Intelligence Committee said it was not a hoax. Mueller, a Republican, listed ten cases of possible obstructions of justice by Trump. Multiple people from Trump's campaign and administration were convicted for crimes related to the Russia scandal. It was not a hoax, no matter how long you've marinated yourself in right-wing conspiracy theories.
Magister - like all the other progressives.
In spite of overwhelming evidence - they are unable to grasp that the russiangate hoax was initiated by the hillary campaign.
5 years after the fact, you still deny the facts
You've used a variation of the same response five or six times at this point - nothing substantive, just the same thing over and over.
Attempting to steal an election, no matter who does it, ought to do a lot more than offend the sensibilities of the elite. It ought to outrage everyone.
After the 2016 election, when Democrats launched an ad campaign to convince electors to switch their votes, were they trying "to steal an election"? Should they have been prosecuted? I don't think so.
Were the Democrats in Congress who challenged the electoral counts after the 2000, 2004, and 2016 elections, as explicitly allowed under the Electoral Account Act of 1887, trying to steal an election. No, they were just using the process as outlined. Can the Vice President disqualify electoral votes under the Constitution? I don't think so, but some lawyers disagree. So, I hardly think it should be a crime to ask the Vice President to do so.
Maybe it's that I'm just not prone to hysteria. Perhaps if I were, I would see things differently. I wouldn't have done what Trump did. For one, it was pointless and had zero chance of success. Regardless, just because something "outrages" someone, doesn't make it a crime. If you are outraged and disgusted at Trump, you can vote against him. But that's just not enough for some who literally want to criminalize opposition.
My statement has nothing to do with whether a crime should be charged. All of this could have been avoided had Trump been impeached, convicted and barred from holding office for attempting to steal the election.
That being said, I would put trying to convince electors to be faithless on no grounds at all to be an attempt to steal an election, but not objections from the House floor given they are codified in law. Sorry, the VP disqualifying votes is akin to faithless electors and the pressure on state officials, fake electors and the pressure on the DOJ are too (and much worse when taken collectively).
All of this could have been avoided had Trump been impeached, convicted and barred from holding office
A rare moment of honesty slips out. Thank you for admitting it.
Some high crimes are so bad, the perpetrator should be barred from office. Attempting to steal an election is one such crime.
HiLIARy's backers tried to get electors to be faithless, on no grounds at all.
The 2020 election had so many grounds, it would crash the system to try to list them all.
There's no point to having electors vote if they can never vote their conscience, and there have been faithless electors many times. The movement in 2016 was unlikely to do anything, but Trump lost 2 electoral votes, which was unprecedented, and calling on electors to reject Trump was perhaps justified in that Trump lost the popular vote and was (as subsequent events have shown so well) completely unsuited to the responsibilities of president (also clear at the time; e.g., the Access Hollywood tape). Has anybody previously ever suggested that mere speech encouraging faithless electors is a crime (but some states punish faithless electors)?
A comment I made a week ago:
Republicans were all set to protest losing the election but winning the popular vote in 2000, except when it turned out the other way and they suddenly liked the electoral college a whole lot, like a Brooks Brothers riot amount.
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/21/it-isnt-just-donald-trump-the-bush-campaign-plotted-to-reject-election-results-in-2000/
The electoral-college math should be automatic.
Better: Help us, Obi Wan. You're our only hope!
No, essentially, they try to make an attempted coup a crime.
Throw away all the legal theories and jargon, and the bottom line is this: Trump tried to have himself installed, by hook or by crook, as president even though he badly lost the election and knew he had badly lost the election.
There is no greater crime in a democracy, short of actually starting a war because one is unhappy about the election result (as in the 1860s). If there were actually no statutes that covered Trump's behavior in that regard, that would be an indictment of the penal code, not an exoneration of Trump.
Look, can we at least get the terminology right? A "coup", derived from the Latin word for "blow", is "a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group"
What Trump actually did was NOT a "coup" either real or attempted. It is better characterized as "lawfare": Attempting to achieve political ends by illegitimate legal maneuvers.
IF he had actually ordered the break in at the Capitol, with the objective of forcing Congress to certify his election, that would indeed have been a "coup". But nobody has produced even a scrap of evidence that break in was his doing. What you're doing here is no different from Somin's "force and fraud": Attempting to imply Trump is guilty of something he hasn't been charged with, and hasn't been charged with because they don't have even the slightest evidence he's actually guilty of it.
Trying an actual "coup" in the US would be unimaginably stupid. We don't have the sort of centralized power system here that enables that; Even if you captured Congress at gun point and forced them to certify Trump President, nobody else would treat that as legitimate. All that would happen is that he'd become a hunted man. He was actually in a worse position to pull off a coup than any other President in history, because he could barely get the executive branch to do his bidding when he issued obviously legal explicit commands. Anything that you could put up even a silly argument wasn't legal basically got ignored.
As we've seen, at least 75% of Republicans would.
Hell, two different conspirators in Trump's orbit argued that Trump should just put down by force any opposition. Jeffrey Clark said, "That's what the Insurrection Act is for," and John Eastman said that the military's job would be to put down any opposition because otherwise we'd have mob rule.
How could we "have seen" something that didn't happen?
I’ve said this before – the weird thing about the speech you’re referring to is you’re willing to burn down all the laws to *protect* Trump. And he’s not even anything cool like the devil, he’s a mediocrity with multiple failed businesses, a reputation for stiffing everyone he can and whose own supporters defend him by pointing out how shit he was and is in government, whose father was in the KKK and whose mentor was a pedophile. Of the three he’s not even the most evil!
Back when Comey let Hillary Clinton off the hook, I was one of few right-leaning folks who agreed that “no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case” (even though she seemed to violate the statute).
I was concerned that regular people had been severely prosecuted for the very same thing (and even less…), but the solution to that double-standard is LESS prosecution across the board, not more.
If we’re going to have justice-by-prosecutorial-discretion, then we need to be meticulous in scrutinizing the consistency of such discretion. Especially with politically controversial figures, where there will always be the inclination to rationalize that people we really dislike are SO much worse than people that we like, etc.
So now with Trump, the key needs to be whether we’re truly being consistent. In the New York case, nobody seriously argues that – so that’s out the window. In the Florida case, it comes down to whether the *differences* between Trump’s conduct vs. Clinton’s/Biden’s/etc. is really enough to justify the severity of difference in treatment. And for the DC case, it comes down to whether people are viewing his improper behavior more harshly than that of other election-deniers…
I think what you are missing is that Hillary Clinton would not have been convicted and that is why no prosecutor would pursue the case. Hillary Clinton is a sharp lawyer who knows what she can and cannot get away with in the system.
There is no real equivalency between the Clinton case and the Trump case. People will try to relate them as an academic exercise but that is all it is an academic exercise.
Prosecutors have indicted Trump because they have a strong cases to put forward and much of the evidence has been provided by the plaintiff in his own statements.
Trump's actions stand alone in being far, far worse than other election deniers. He tried to steal the election. I can't think of any other candidate that came close.
We are at this point because all along the way people, mostly Republicans, did little to rein in Trump. Had Republican laid down the law earlier Trump might have learned to moderate his behavior. He was their President but even Presidents have to be told no occasionally. When he lost the election in 2020 they wanted to give him time to come to terms with the defeat. He never did and their sheepishness has cost them the Senate in both 2020 and 2022.
Republicans need to take the lead here. For the country they profess to care about. They need to have Trump take a plea deal. Trump pleads guilty, accepts internal exile in Mara Logo and the prosecutor accept there will be no jail time. The longer Republican wait to do this the worse it will be for the country.
Do you work for the Justice Department? Has there been a plea offer? The deal you describe will never be offered because Jack Smith &c. want Trump to die in federal prison. And if some Republicans were to come to Smith suggesting such a deal, Smith would probably indict them for obstruction or some such BS.
F.D. The home site is called Reason, but it is in very short supply here at the VC.
Trump should die in a prison, but I believe that he could readily arrange a plea bargain if he would accept responsibility, acknowledge guilt, exhibit some remorse, and stop being a thoroughgoing jackass performing a freak show for a fan base of belligerent ignorant, bigoted, worthless jackasses.
Possibly many Republicans took the short-sighted view that the threat posed by a Biden presidency justified the extreme action of Trump's trying to steal the election.
So all the opposition candidate ( Trump) has to do to avoid being sent to prison by the state is agree to not run for office? How fascist.
The facts suggest that the former Presidents main interest in running again is to avoid prosecution and little else. A plea deal would be a compromise. The former President get what he wants, and the American people get what they want. If you think a trial is less facist then we can have the trial. However, you accept the outcome.
Really? Because ever since 2021 Trump has been basically campaigning, raising money and doing the other things s candidate does to get elected. Such things as endorsing and campaigning for candidates of lower office. In fact I believe that the opposite is true, that if Trump had announced that he was retiring from politics that there would be no attempt to charge him and that this is more an attempt to destroy him politically.
Don't go talking logic, and throwing timelines at these TDS sufferers.
If there's anything that is characteristic of leftists, and these Marxists, it is that time is a flexible commodity, when events happen, changes and they even disappear, at their whim.
"Back when Comey let Hillary Clinton off the hook, I was one of few right-leaning folks who agreed that “no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case” (even though she seemed to violate the statute). "
I work in DoD. I'd be in Leavenworth if I did what she did. I've had coworkers told by security officers after that they would be in Leavenworth if they did end she did. The only reason she wasn't charged is because she was so high ranking. Us peons? Behind bars.
And if you did what Trump did?
It would be helpful if you could cite people who were actually prosecuted for what she did.
BillyG : “I work in DoD. I’d be in Leavenworth if I did what she did”
How sweet. You can lie. Your coworkers enjoy lying with you. The facts:
1. Clinton couldn’t be charged with using private email because it wasn’t even illegal. Not for her, or Colin Powell (using AOL) or for Condoleezza Rice. No one has ever been charged for that – before, during, or since.
2. Clinton received messages sent by people using normal State Department ,gov email not rated for classified traffic. Both the senders and Clinton thought the messages were unclassified. A later review upgraded some messages to classified. So let’s list your problems :
(a) No one has EVER been charged for mistaking the classified status of a message.
(b) If the Feds did start charging people for that they’d have to build tons more prisons.
(c) The persons who sent the message on unsecure normal email are equally guilty per BillyG’s bullshit – much more so in fact. I guess everyone who received the messages on their unsecure email also shares in this “obvious” guilt. Scores upon scores of people should have “been in Leavenworth” (except for the fact no one has ever been charged for a similar offense).
(d) Of course that includes Rice and Powell, both who had messages on their private email they thought unclassified whose security status was later upgraded.
Maybe BillyG is luck not to be in Leavenworth. Maybe they have a cellblock wing for the dishonest, ill-informed, and down-right imbecilic….
What an imagination, you have.
You should go work for the groomers, at Disney.
So we need to prosecute politicians in politically motivated prosecutions since the political process won't take them out of power for us when they do politics and say things we don't like and other people (not them) get angry enough to do some stupid violent shit. Sounds like we'll need to indict BLM-supporting pols.
If we can't find a crime they committed, we'll just stretch the code to make it fit. It's probably there in the penumbras and emanations, if you squint long enough. Anyway, if his high priced lawyers can defeat our rigged jury, then he has nothing to fear.
I hope President Trump sues you into oblivion for falsely stating that he ever used force. That is a darn lie.
In the fevered mind, 340 million Americans would have looked at that result and said, welp, I guess we’re a dictatorship now because a few idiots took over some rooms, strung up some politicians, and said we saved the country with these other slates they weren’t gonna recognize. Generals would support it. Secret service would support it.
Wow! God DAMN it did we just dodge a bullet. I've changed my mind. Thank you, all!
More interesting to look at the fevered minds who saw all that and think, yup, let's try that again.
The laws of attempt, conspiracy, and fraud, do not require a well considered strategy.
He was actually very careful to not state it, just imply it. But I'm sure that if Trump gets convicted of anything, anything at all, he'll be 100% behind the judge using ordering the January 6th 'insurrection' as an uncharged basis for sentencing.
That is indeed how sentencing works. It includes making determinations not in the initial trial. It has for a long time.
Trump folks discovering American criminal law and hating it over and over again.
Yes, it is indeed how sentencing works, and how sentencing works in the US is an obscenity.
So in a thoughtful exercise of prosecutorial restraint, they charge Trump with a crime from the post civil war period that comes with a possible death sentence. Smart move. Threaten to jail and even execute the person 80 million well-armed Americans supported.
74 million, not all of whom are willing to use force and a fair proportion probably only voted for him because they didn't want Biden, just as many people voted for Biden because they disliked Trump.
BTW the Constitution is somewhat older than the Civil War, obviously - and 14A is a post Civil War amendment. Does that mean we should ignore them?
'and even execute'
This is a thing, is it?
So the response here is pretend the indictment is other than it is, or whattabiutism.
Sad state of affairs in The Trump camp.
"Giving presidents impunity for using force and fraud"
"Force"? Trying to import outrage from a charge they didn't bring on account of lacking evidence, are we?
Look, the deniability is plausible! PLAUSIBLE I'M TELLING YOU!
Search "Somin Trump" on this site, and you will find Somin's been writing hysterical anti-Trump posts since 2015, more than a year before Trump was ever elected President. When your hysteria meter starts at maximum and stays there for 8 years, your credibility on a topic is not very high.
A reminder that the Washington Post story "The Campaign to Impeach President Trump Has Begun" was posted on January 20, 2017, at 12:19 PM, at which point Trump had been President of the United States for nineteen minutes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/01/20/the-campaign-to-impeach-president-trump-has-begun/
They sure took their time about it.
Ah, you're now plagiarizing Brett Bellmore, which is… ill advised. Here's what Democrats did to impeach Donald Trump on 1/20/17: nothing. Here's what Democrats did to impeach Donald Trump at any other time in 2017: nothing. Here's what Democrats did to impeach Donald Trump at any time in 2018: nothing. Here's what Democrats did to impeach Donald Trump for the first 7 months of 2019: nothing.
Some campaign!
Anyway, I don't think we're facing a choice between Trump enjoying impunity, and Trump not enjoying impunity. It's basically a matrix with four choices:
1 Everybody gets impunity.
2 Everybody BUT Trump gets impunity
3 Only Trump gets impunity
4 Nobody gets impunity.
Somin wants us to believe that we were in box 4, and are moving to box 3. But that's absurd: Based on just public information, you could have justified prosecuting every President from Nixon on, except maybe Carter. They ALL did things that an aggressive prosecutor could have found sufficient to bring charges. And yet, no charges were brought. A Beria could put half of Washington behind bars, and not even break into a sweat.
We were, unambiguously, in box 1.
We face no shortage of public figures you could, for DJT values of 'justified', justify prosecuting. A dozen or more members of Congress in thick with Antifa and BLM rioters who attacked government buildings and committed billions of dollars in property damage. Biden's bribery scandals. Half the politicians in DC with access to classified documents taking them home. And only Trump prosecuted.
We ARE, unambiguously, in box 2.
Box 3 is not on offer, outside of some people's fevered imaginations.
Box 4 would be great, I mean that sincerely. It ain't happening short of a revolution.
Somin, I suppose, might imagine that Box 2 is a step in the direction of Box 4. If only. It's more a way of making sure we can't get to box 4, by assuring that nobody outside the system ever ends up in a position to drive that change.
Do I like box 1? No. Do I think box 2 is an improvement on box 1? Not remotely.
Now you're just straight up arguing in favour impunity for Trump using ipse dixits and false equivalences. Which is an acknowledgement of actual wrongdoing, at least.
1: Please state Trump's actual wrongdoing. What are the actual things he did ("he tried to host a coup" is just another way to say "he's a bad man". Give actual specifics). Oh, wait, there's nothing he did that qualifies
2: Hunter Biden's laptop clearly demonstrates not only Vice President Joe Biden's complete and utter corruption, but the method by which so many members of Congress become rich in office.
They're not in jail because "everyone gets impunity"
That you pathetic losers are all pretending that's not a matter of public record demonstrates your total worthlessness as human beings
Unambiguously!
Yeah. Notice all the charges that are being brought against other politicians? I mean, other politicians who aren't enemies of the regime, anyway; Trump allies are fair game, along with him.
You really think you couldn't work up valid charges against anybody else, without even being imaginative? Seriously? Insider trading, for instance, is rampant in DC. Plenty of members of Congress have more connection to Antifa rioters than Trump had to the January 6th rioters. Classified documents being mishandled all over the place. And, of course, all the financial crap that's come out on Biden and relentlessly NOT been pursued by the DOJ.
It wouldn't even take Beria to put half of DC behind bars. It would just take... lifting their traditional impunity.
No members of Congress have any connection to Antifa rioters. Trump has a direct connection to the J6 rioters, as they themselves have testified.
No "financial crap" has come out on Biden.
You remind me a bit of that old Python skit, the argument clinic.
"Man: An argument isn't just contradiction.
Mr. Vibrating: It can be.
Man: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
Mr. Vibrating: No it isn't.
Man: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
Mr. Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Man: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
Mr. Vibrating: Yes it is!"
You think lots of things are very clear because you believe them fervently.
Other people must be lying when they tell you different.
You admit your worldview is radical, and yet you also think your takes on the facts are universal.
'Insider trading, for instance, is rampant in DC.'
Ironically the only politicians I ever see trying to do something about this are Democrats.
This entire line of reasoning depends on the assumption that the prosecution of Trump is not politically motivated, but is a pure exercise of the “rule of law”.
Well.
That’s the problem, isn’t it? No one believes this is non-partisan. Not even those bringing the charges. And if you take away the presumption of non-partisanship, what are you left with? That corrupting the Courts with politics is a colossal mistake a thousand times over.
This isn’t that hard. If you want to represent yourself as being pure and non-partisan, you not only have to walk the talk, you have to avoid even the appearance of showing favoritism.
The unintended consequences of forcing those aspiring to higher office to lead even squeakier-clean lives will be that only out-of-touch weirdos will want to go for those jobs.
When the former President's own AG says the case is legitimate - and indicates he's willing to testify against his former boss - the issue becomes a bit more complicated than "this is a partisan attack."
you have no idea how DC works. Bar is on the inside. He is more interested in protecting the DoJ than exposing the rot.
There are team uniforms, you havent learned how to see the teams, let alone identifying them.
And none of them, not even one, are True Scotsmen.
Interesting analysis.
Here are the former President's words about his AG when nominating him:
“I want to confirm that Bill Barr, one of the most respected jurists in the country, highly respected lawyer, former attorney general under the Bush administration, a terrific man, a terrific person, a brilliant man. I did not know him until recently when I went through the process of looking at people and he was my first choice from day one, respected by Republicans and respected by Democrats. He will be nominated for the United States attorney general and hopefully that process will go very quickly.”
And remember, 45 only hired the very best people.
Hmmmm...
Ilya, I agree completely.
Ilya is not a big fan our representative Republic.
It is designed so one person could not possible harm our nation. Congress is fully functioning, It can stop or correct any harm.
Although we have a current President that is up to $20 million in payola, and Democrats are running hard to block any investigation, and sees no possible crime....Still, he will be gone in 2 years.
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
But there are also consequentialist concerns… that prosecuting Trump might ….. trigger a slippery slope where other former presidents and high officials get prosecuted.
And this is a bad thing why? They all have it coming.
” Josh Blackman agrees, and predicts future GOP administrations will try to prosecute Democratic politicians
Still waiting for the bad part.
Democratic and Republican politicians could potentially endlessly prosecute each other for various petty offenses
So, no downsides. Got it.
Jerry Pournelle often claimed that the Roman Republic ended when people started prosecuting the person who previously held the office. Because this meant no one could ever afford to leave office
So if you want a bloody civil war, by all means keep on supporting the Democrats as they corruptly use the "Justice" Department to make up garbage charges in an attempt to steal elections.
If you don't, then stop supporting Democrats attempts to give Trump a speeding ticket while driving in the Indy 5000
Here we go again.
Just another leftist professor with what he thinks is a unique take on the Trump mess that Biden has created. There are as many professors saying the opposite. Believe what you want, it doesn't matter.
Look, hate Trump all you want. I'm not happy with him either. But the fact remains that Biden is on record stating to his AG that he wanted DOJ to get Trump, and so they are trying. Brilliant: go after your predecessor and chief antagonist. No one will notice that!
Meanwhile, Trump's popularity grows with each indictment. How is it that no one saw that coming?
Then there are the allegations against the Family Biden. The receipts are there. DOJ can only come up with so many new charges to keep the incriminating evidence against the Bidens off the front page. At what point do the people pulling the strings throw up their hands and yank Old Joe off the stage? What do they need - his name on the checks from Russian oligarchs? He's doing himself no favors by changing his story as told through that vapid twit of a press secretary every time Comer releases yet another tidbit implicating him in selling his old office.
As if that's not enough, the number of mistakes and outright misconduct by this special-ed counsel are growing. Who over there thought it would be a good idea to try to intimidate Nauta's lawyer into turning on Team Trump? Did they forget that the good guys follow the law and the bad guys use strong-arm tactics? And then they double-down by trying to get that lawyer booted off the case. I realize they don't care how any of this looks, but it's all striking a chord with people across the country.
The bottom line is that no matter what these "professors" say, no matter what the special counsel comes up with next, the only thing this jihad against Trump is doing is making him look like a martyr in the eyes of millions. Going after Trump on the thinnest of charges looks petty and vindictive... and that is an impression that's not going away anytime soon, if at all.
Giving presidents impunity for using force and fraud to try to nullify election results
I note that Trump's "crimes" are so horrible that Illya can't find a single actual one to name.
"Force"? When did Trump use force? When did Trump tell anyone else to use force?
Do let us know exactly what he said, and when he said it. Because every single Democrat politician who has said somethign like that before the Left riots clearly needs to go to jail for their "use of force".
"Fraud"? Exactly what fraud was that? Did he tell us if we liked our doctors we could keep our doctors? Did he tell us Hunter Biden's laptop was Russian disinformation?
No? Those election related frauds were perfectly fine?
Does it ever bother you, being a complete and utter lunatic?