The Volokh Conspiracy
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Florida Law Aimed at Drag Shows Struck Down
From yesterday's decision by Judge Gregory Presnell (M.D. Fla.) in HM Florida-ORL, LLC v. Griffin:
This case addresses the constitutionality of Florida Statute § 827.11. The state claims that this statute seeks to protect children generally from obscene live performances. However, … Florida already has statutes that provide such protection. Rather, this statute is specifically designed to suppress the speech of drag queen performers. In the words of the bill's sponsor in the House, State Representative Randy Fine: "…HB 1423…will protect our children by ending the gateway propaganda to this evil — 'Drag Queen Story Time.'" …
The statute defines [a prohibited] "adult live performance" as:
[A]ny show, exhibition, or other presentation in front of a live audience which, in whole or in part, depicts or simulates nudity, sexual conduct, sexual excitement, or specific sexual activities as those terms are defined in s. 827.001, lewd conduct, or the lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts when it:
[1.] Predominantly appeals to a prurient, shameful, or morbid interest;
[2.] Is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community of this state as a whole with respect to what is suitable material or conduct for the age of the child present; and
[3.] Taken as a whole, is without serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for the age of the child present….
Plaintiff HM Florida-ORL, LLC … is a Florida for-profit business operating Hamburger Mary's Restaurant and Bar in Orlando. Plaintiff frequently presents drag show performances, comedy sketches, and dancing, including "family friendly" drag performances on Sundays where children are invited to attend….
Defendants argue that the Act's language and restrictions track those upheld in Ginsberg v. New York (1968) [which did ban the distribution of "obscene-as-to-minors" material, such as books and magazines, to minors -EV]. There are several significant distinctions, however, between the narrowly tailored statute in Ginsberg and Fla. Stat. § 827.11. First, the Supreme Court in Ginsberg "relied not only on the State's independent interest in the well-being of its youth, but also on the consistent recognition of the principle that 'the parents' claim to authority in their own household to direct the rearing of their children is basic in the structure of our society.'" The prohibition against the sale to minors of material considered obscene for their age in the statute at issue in Ginsberg "d[id] not bar parents who so desire[d] from purchasing magazines for their children." The Act does not allow for the exercise of parental discretion, stating plainly that "[a] person may not knowingly admit a child to an adult live performance," explicitly foreclosing any defense based on a "bona fide belief of a child's consent." {The Court assumes this language refers to parental consent, as it is unclear how, for instance, a sixteen-year-old could "legally" consent to viewing a show they are criminally prohibited from seeing until the age of eighteen.}
Second, the statute in Ginsberg only applied to commercial transactions, as opposed to the apparent universal application of § 827.11 to anyone, anywhere— the statute does not define a "live performance," which could conceivably range from a sold-out burlesque show to a skit at a backyard family barbecue.
Third, and arguably most importantly, the Act here does not define several important terms: "live performance;" "child;" "lewd conduct;" and "lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts." {The Court consulted Fla. Stat. § 800.04—which covers "lewd or lascivious offenses"—to obtain guidance on the meaning of "lewd conduct." Alas, such offenses are defined only by their own terms. See, e.g., § 800.04(6) ("A person who…[i]ntentionally touches a person 16 years of age in a lewd or lascivious manner; or…[s]olicits a person under 16 years of age to commit a lewd or lascivious act …commits lewd or lascivious conduct."). The Florida Supreme Court's jury instructions offer an inkling into covered conduct, but likewise leave the reader with more questions than answers. According to these Instructions, "[t]he words 'lewd' and 'lascivious' mean the same thing: a wicked, lustful, unchaste, licentious, or sensual intent on the part of the person doing an act."} These ambiguities, especially those pertaining to "lewd" conduct and exposure of prosthetics, represent a material departure from the established obscenity outline ….
{In Ginsberg, the statute at issue defined a minor as a person under seventeen, whereas here the Act presumably applies to all persons under eighteen. Reno, 521 U.S. at 865-66. Defendant argues that the flexibility inherent in § 827.11's reference to "suitable material or conduct for the age of the child present" allays concerns voiced by the Third Circuit in ACLU v. Ashcroft (3d Cir. 2003). On the contrary, this merely introduces an even more impossible standard for businesses and individuals to comprehend.}
Similarly indicative of the Florida Legislature's failure to narrowly tailor § 827.11 is its inevitable clash with the Florida "Parents' Bill of Rights" and other laws. In pertinent part, Fla. Stat. § 1014 states that: "All parental rights are reserved to the parent of a minor child in this state…including…[t]he right to direct the upbringing and the moral or religious training of his or her minor child." Id. § 1014.04(1)(b). This comports with other laws in Florida, such as § 847.013, which governs the exposure of minors to "harmful motion pictures, exhibitions, shows, presentations, or representations." That law prohibits the kind of obscene material described in Miller [v. California] and, indeed, the Act here, with the exception that it does not incorporate ambiguities like "lewd conduct" or "lewd exposure of prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts." Importantly, however, that law does include a limiting provision which allows for a minor accompanied by his or her parents to attend any such exhibitions, regardless of the minor's age….
Unlike comparable statutes which target commercial activity and are more narrowly tailored in their scope to allow for parental discretion, specific age thresholds, and clearly defined terms, § 827.11 proscribes conduct universally and threatens to permit "a standardless sweep [which would] allow[] policemen, prosecutors, and juries to pursue their personal predilections." Including an exception for parental consent, as it did in § 847.013, is at least one less restrictive means through which the Legislature could have sought to further the state's compelling interest in protecting minors from obscene performances. Following the logic of Ginsberg and Reno v. ACLU, where such a fundamental consideration is found lacking, § 827.11 is not sufficiently narrowly tailored ….
A fully clothed drag queen with cleavage-displaying prosthetic breasts reading an age-appropriate story to children may be adjudged "wicked"—and thus "lewd"—by some, but such a scenario would not constitute the kind of obscene conduct prohibited by the statutes in cases like Miller. Moreover, the Act's focus on "prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts" raises a host of other concerns not simply answered—what are the implications for cancer survivors with prosthetic genitals or breasts? It is this vague language—dangerously susceptible to standardless, overbroad enforcement which could sweep up substantial protected speech—which distinguishes § 827.11 and renders Plaintiff's claim likely to succeed on the merits.
I'm inclined to be skeptical of some of the court's analysis; for instance, if a cancer survivor has prosthetic genitals, I would think that they could be just as forbidden to display them to children in a sexually themed performance as the rest of us are as to our genitals. Nor is it clear to me that the statute's coverage of noncommercial performances makes a First Amendment difference. First Amendment protection for books, newspapers, movies, performances, and other speech generally doesn't turn on whether they are provided for money or for free; a freely distributed leaflet is no more and no less protected than the New York Times. And I'm not sure that the Florida statute that provides for parental rights affects the constitutionality of this statute; a new statute may permissibly carve out exceptions from an old one.
But on balance I do think that, if the statute indeed excludes parental consent, that's likely inconsistent with Ginsberg, which upheld a ban on distributing obscene-as-to-minors material to children in party because it supported the choices of parents:
The legislature could properly conclude that parents and others, teachers for example, who have this primary responsibility for children's well-being are entitled to the support of laws designed to aid discharge of that responsibility. Indeed, [the New York statute] expressly recognizes the parental role in assessing sex-related material harmful to minors according "to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable material for minors." Moreover, the prohibition against sales to minors does not bar parents who so desire from purchasing the magazines for their children.
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I’m glad these divisive Republican stunts are being swatted down.
'divisive stunt' = the assertion that Americans have the right not to have their hard earned money confiscated to fund tranny child grooming.
Weird this isn't a bill about spending, then.
Almost as though your slurs and accusations of pedophilia are full of shit, but anger covers the continuity errors.
Weird that you'd call taxes "confiscation" while supporting the additional taxes necessary to enforce laws against dressing in a way you'd dislike, but are against the zero-cost, no-new-taxws status quo. Wait, did I say weird? I meant stupid and weird.
No new taxes would be required. What a stupid and weird comment.
GK,
You think it would cost zero dollars to police this new law, to prosecute possible offenders, to incarcerate the convicted? I (and everyone else but you) assume that it's tax dollars that will cover these expenses. Now, tax dollars are supposed to be used, in part, to cover law enforcement, of course. But it's an odd take to flat-out deny the cost side of the analysis . . . even for people who think this particular issue is bad enough and/or important enough to justify spending those tax dollars, they'd simply say, "Yes, it will cost money to enforce this law, but it's--on balance--a good use of state funds."
There is nothing that compels parents to take kids to such shows.
As long as the obviously lewd simulation of sex is absent, what is the problem?
What you are going to see next, captcrisis, is Hamburger Mary's burning to the ground. Lynch's law when the regular law ceases to function.
If it does, I'll personally make sure investigators are made aware of this comment.
Like flag burning in decades past, drag shows are causing a loud fight over an issue that doesn't really matter.
A whole lotta free speech absolutists gonna be mad, for reasons.
Free speech doesn't mean you get to steal taxpayer money and space at taxpayer funded institutions to support your grooming sessions. If you want to have them go do it at your own place on your own dime.
repost
Free speech absolutism means targeting a particular thing you don't like, whether funded privately or publicly, apparently. You have to lie about it obviously, but THAT'S protected speech. Meanwhile, they'll defend Nazis' free speech! The worse that can happen with a drag show is a boy decides to wear a dress. But if a boy becomes a Nazi?
Or is a boy growing up to wear dresses worse than a boy growing up to be a Nazi?
Why is a drag show a "grooming session?"
But then if your mind is in the gutter, it is not surprising that you see dirt.
I think Florida should focus on shows like the DQH which essentially hijack public tax money for ideological purposes without public input or review. Drag shows as long as they occur privately are not quite as objectionable after despite the obvious hypocrisy that an individual doing some of the same things they sometimes do with children outside the context of being a brave LGDKFLDFJDFLJLFJSLOFJLDJLDFDF LDFL person fighting for their rights would be quickly arrested without any outrage.
Congrats on agreeing with the opinion while raging against what you think the case was about.
Another Clinton appointed geriatric who should have been forced to resign years ago.
These transgenders are poisoning our society. They should be put in concentration camps.
Its funny how this is the most important cause in the universe now. Save the whales? Save the starving african children? Nope, save the child grooming drag shows.
PS before you progs turn on the projection lamp about the right making a big deal about this, the rights discourse is tiny compared to the juggernaut of corporate and institutional power pushing down on the pro child grooming side. Not to mention the tsunami of leftwing caterwauling on social media.
It isn't about the children -- its about the corporate and institutional power fearing a populist uprising.
'Its funny how this is the most important cause in the universe now.'
It's funny how lazy and hollow your rhetoric is.
'Its funny how this is the most important cause in the universe now. Save the whales? Save the starving african children? Nope, save the child grooming drag shows'.
Maybe people should instead be asking WHY your media and government are making it the most important cause -- to be talked about -- right now.
Is it, at least in part, because it serves as a distraction, ie, from what's happening globally, and because focusing on THAT instead would make most Americans (and indeed, the whole globe) shit their pants?
Yeah, climate change, for one.
Eugene, you are going to continue to fail to fully grasp how the First Amendment applies to drag performances if you do not spend more time thinking about their expressive content.
To understand what drag is, you can start with where it essentially started - female (or male) impersonation, and celebrity impersonation. Drag starts with the idea of creating an illusion, which requires playing with audience expectations about what a woman (or man) should look like, how they or a celebrity should move, perform, behave, etc. This essential core of drag relates to its core message, which is about demonstrating and embodying the superficiality of gender and celebrity performance.
Given these roots, drag is a medium that is supremely suited for critiquing so much of our superficial pop culture. It's a medium for critiquing beliefs about femininity, masculinity, beauty, sex. RuPaul's own "Glamazon" persona started as a kind of critique of the narcissistic, image-obsessed pop star, for instance; and now that she has become a cultural titan in her own right, there is cultural space for a drag critique of that too, that sell-out and mainstreaming process. It's a fascinating art form with tremendous, naturally-burgeoning potential.
That being the case, breast plates and padded asses are not, for the drag performer, analogous to prosthetic genitals; pantomiming sexual activity on stage is not essentially "lewd" or aimed in any way at a "prurient interest." These kinds of props and acts are essential to the expressive message of the drag performer. If you are outraged by Jimbo's enormous breast plates being jiggled in front of children, then you need to spend more time paying attention to the point of using those kinds of breast plates. It's not because she thinks that bazongas are beautiful (or, at least, it's not just because of that); rather, it's about pointing to and exploiting your discomfort with these enormous, obviously fake accessories, what they mean to you.
So, Eugene - you continue to miss the mark on this subject. You are trying to provide guidance to legislators on how they could write a constitutional drag ban, but as long as you fail to apprehend the essence of drag, you will continue to overstep.
I sense Prof. Volokh is hitting his intended mark with precision and regularity. His incessant transgender-Muslim-lesbian-drag queen-gay content is no more happenstance than are the steady stream of vile racial slurs or the strikingly white, remarkably male roster at the Volokh Conspiracy.
You really should try Kindler/Gentler, does wonder's for a man's Prostatism.
Bigotry is neither kind nor gentle.
It also is a loser at the modern American marketplace of ideas, and will drag down most or all of the political preferences of those who hitch their political wagon to those of our vestigial bigots. Ask young people -- especially the educated, reasoning, skilled Americans who will shape our national progress and future -- what they think of Republican racists, conservative misogynists, superstitious gay-bashers, right-wing Islamophobes, obsolete antisemites, and backwater immigrant-haters.
Getting older hasn't made you any wiser, "Coach"
Fuck, if you're not gonna be kind and gentle, I'm not gonna, hopefully Eugene's got better thangs to do (get it?) than po-lease the "Conspiracy" on a Saturday Afternoon...
"Ask Young People"?? isn't that what got you in your current "Sitch-yew-Asian" "Coach"??
They're as stupid and naive as they've always been, worse actually, as "Back in the day" (Nobody under 50 should be allowed to say "Back in the day") they'd actually had experiences, working at Magic Mountain, Bagging Groceries, Delivering Papers, and your current Pubic College Grad is stupider than a HS Grad circa 1972,
Seriously, If I'd had to pay for Med School myself, I'd probably have gone the Naval Flight Officer Route (didn't have the 20/20 for Pilot, dammit!) $5,000/year in Tuition(real money in 1984) no way that would pay off!! Idiots today borrow 6 figures for some bullshit degree won't get you flipping waffles at Waffle House, and pissed that if their debt gets "Written Off" it counts as income,
Frank "Back to Kindler/Gentler" "Coach" I hope you live a long, long, long, life at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
OK, Truth isn't always Gentle or Kind
'Bigotry is neither kind nor gentle'.
You should know...
Marketplace of ideas!?!?!??! Are you for real, you Orwellian fuck? Who in the rest of the world is supposed to believe that about your country???
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
Once again, you have used 'white' and 'male' as terms of disparagement. The irony of this bigotry is of course lost on you, AIDS.
Carry on, AIDS. Till your grandchildren get Breiviked by your American betters and everything you love and care about America crashes and burns.
Or maybe that's all just bullshit.
Even assuming arguendo it is, lots of art is pretentious BS and is still protected by the First Amendment.
Much like organized religion.
Make that precisely like organized religion.
Carry on, clingers.
Islamophobe! Anti-Semite!
Have you ever said that to a religious Muslim person's face?
Pretentious lewd BS in front of kids is not protected, so I agree with Simon that whether all drag performances are lewd is key to whether this law is overbroad. I also agree with him that many are not.
Pretentious lewd BS in front of kids is not protected,...
The word you are looking for is "obscenity," and again, it is a mistake to think that drag performances are "lewd" in the constitutionally-relevant way. They are sometimes sexual, sometimes rather explicitly so. But they are almost never about appealing to a "prurient interest" in sexual activity, in the same way that pornography itself does. No one watching a drag show (or most drag shows, at any rate) is really titillated by the experience. A drag queen pretending to fellate a mike or moaning like they're experiencing an orgasm isn't turning anyone on.
They're clowns. Sometimes perverse, explicitly sexual clowns. But clowns nonetheless. There's less going on in a typical drag show than a lot of music videos and TV shows kids have full access to.
One of the salient features of this 'debate' is the astonishing ignorance of almost everybody about what drag actually is. At least one yahoo here thought my decsription of a drag RACE was supposed to be a sympathetic description of a drag event.
Good chat. Go fuck yourself.
I love the people who support suppression of political speech supporting drag queens showing their crotches to kindergartners.
Go all in. Mandate porn starting in kindergarten. The “Teach Them About Dicks Before They Turn Six” Act. In for a dime, in for a dollar.
Can anybody actually ascribe a point to shit like this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H-3ttcVpAMo
Or are we just sexualizing children to piss off the other side?
There is no inconsistency. You're the one who is advocating against private liberty:
Twitter is a private company making associative choices (badly, these days but so it goes).
This law regulating drag is attempting to regulate private expressive conduct.
You, and the right are the one coming in requesting government regulate both.
Have you bothered to notice that drag shows have been around for a couple of centuries and nobody gave a shit about them until they started waving their privates at 2nd graders? That’s the root of all of this garbage. Education authorities could stop doing this to kids, but as is the usual case they are putting their own personal politics ahead of the best interest of children.
And you proudly support the government’s war on political speech, so save me the piety over free speech. If the speech is messing up children, you’re all for it. If it’s criticizing the policies of your king, shut it down. Hypocrite.
The right’s ‘think of the children’ is nonsense, based on amplifying a few anecdotes, in service of their pushing overbroad laws.
Sure has worked on you.
Think of the children has been used to justify populist anti-speech regulation for ages.
There is no government war on political speech. Twitter is not the government, nor are they acting as agents for the government. The twitter files found nothing but twitter treating government requests for takedown the same as any other entity, denying some and allowing some.
Sarcastr0, in a thread about a judge striking down a law that prevents children from seeing sexually explicit drag shows: "The right’s ‘think of the children’ is nonsense".
You can’t comprehend how I think because I avoid politics. You keep saying right wing this and right wing that, but right wing has nothing to do with my opinion on this. I’m perfectly capable of watching that video I linked to and judging it to be borderline child abuse without having some MAGA fool telling me. You can’t seem to comprehend drawing a conclusion without some political idiot telling you what to think.
And sure, the government had nothing to do with suppression of speech by Twitter. All you have to do to conclude that is the thousands of communications from the FBI and the DHS and people like Schiff. Doing so is laughable but that’s the company line on the left and you hew to it like a good boy. But everyone out here in reality sees it for what it is.
Have you bothered to read the actual evidence? Twitter has (well, had; who knows if there's anyone left there now but a few rodents in the walls) a mechanism where one can report a post to them that one thinks violates Twitter rules. The FBI can do that, Kim Kardashian can do that, you can do that. Twitter retains 100% discretion to decide whether and how to act on such a report.
The "Twitter Files" actually showed — as Twitter itself said in court — that Twitter routinely rejected such reports when it didn't think they were problematic, even when those reports came from the FBI. You can legitimately argue if you want that it's inappropriate for the FBI even to make such reports — though you should first make yourself aware that the vast majority of these reports were along the lines of "these look like Russian bots" — but you cannot truthfully argue that the FBI censored anyone.
Ain’t it funny that all of the thousands of instances of suppression requests were targeted at speech of a particular type? If Saddam were still with us he’d be talking about The Mother of All Coincidences.
If the FBI/DHS/White House has so many employees to spare that they can generate so damn many suppression requests then they really need to reduce headcount. I mean, accepting your opinion on this means that all of those people spent years accomplishing absolutely nothing. A terrible waste of tax money, no? If we’re so hungry for cash that we’re going to scrutinize $600 transactions then maybe we could quit pissing money away fruitlessly.
I’m sure you and Sarcastro and the Queen would be every bit as sanguine if the request to deplatform a reporter cane from MTG rather than from Schiff.
And finally, exactly what do you think Biden’s Ministry of Truth led by Secretary Fruitcake was intended to do before it was ridiculed out of existence? Best case, based on your interpretation, it was intended to piss away even more tax dollars accomplishing nothing.
No, because it isn't true. Just because conservative grifters are the only ones who whined does not mean that they were the only ones who had tweets moderated or accounts deleted.
I presume this is a reference to the Disinformation Governance Board. It wasn't intended to do anything. It had no substantive authority. It was just a method for interagency coordination.
Hey guess what, David. I’m not a conservative grifter. Or a liberal one. And guys like Taibbi and Shellenberger are liberals anyway. Old style liberals.
You are correct that the type of speech was consistently suppressed was not a function of team red or team blue. You made an incorrect assumption based on politics, which is always the instinct of the political.
The type of speech that was consistently suppressed is actually a lot more dangerous for liberty than if it had been a simple red or blue thing. As you point out, each team pushed for suppression when they were in power. So what type of speech do you think was consistently suppressed?
Christ, man, you come in hot and then won’t say what you are arguing except Twitter means government is suppressing speech.
It was and is not. Quit being cagey.
Ok, asshole. What was being suppressed was speech that was critical of the government and those in power.
The powerful, especially those in the government, have figured out that they can lean on Twitter and Facebook and Google and the rest to suppress speech that is unfavorable to them. You know, redress of grievances.
And the pathetic thing is that you and your side support it not because of some character flaw, but simply because it became widely known about while your team was in power. You’d give up our most important civil right to avoid legitimate criticism of your side.
You and David made this a red/blue thing, not me.
There, is that direct enough?
Matt "Low Rent Glenn Greenwald" Taibbi is not a liberal. "Old style" — whatever that means — or new. Like Greenwald, he's describes himself as being on the left, but spends 150% of time punching liberals. (Shellenberger appears to be similar, but I know less about him. I know he was an environmentalist who broke from the rest of liberal environmentalists and — like Taibbi — now spends all his time criticizing them.)
In any case, the point is that the Twitter files do not show what these people claimed. Not even a little bit.
Greenwood, Taibbi, and Shellenberger were all solidly liberal as recently as five years ago. Then the leftist party in the US shifts crazy progressive and they stay the same. Now they’re fascists? Ok.
The liberals these guys are punching is substantially made up of the media, because as actual journalists the behavior of the broad media diminishes their profession.
Greenwood, Taibbi, and Shellenberger were all solidly liberal as recently as five years ago.
Bullshit. they were on the Putinist, Susan Sarandon, Jill Stein left tip of the horseshoe, reserving almost all their fire for mainstream liberals. My only departure from David’s otherwise bang on characterization is that I wouldn’t call Taibbi a low rent Glenn Greenwald. I’d call him Glenn Greenwald without the personality disorder. (I also share David’s disclaimer for Shellenberger, about whom I know bupkis.)
You're now arguing not content of the twitter files, or any other evidence, but based on personalities, as you see them.
That's subjective, and not a very good thing to based broad-based condemnations like 'I love the people who support suppression of political speech supporting drag queens showing their crotches to kindergartners.'
Similarly, you keep protesting it's not about right v. left and yet...that's your entire argument, that people you believe are on the left are punching left.
‘Then the leftist party in the US shifts crazy progressive and they stay the same.’
They were never liberal, they just said things that aligned with what liberals were thinking at a particular time, they did stay the same while the world moved on, (except Shellenberger, an actual turncoat and thoroughgoing corporate sell-out) and that was, it turns out, not liberal, and my God you act as if disagreeing with them is some horrible affront.
This is exactly why you Americans need to give up on the intentionally vague (and regularly abused) terms of 'liberal' and 'progressive' and switch instead, when they're more appropriate, to 'social democrat', 'socialist', etc. The former two terms have been used to hoodwink Americans for decades...
Greenwald was always anti-liberal left. He told us all as much.
'Old style' liberals like the Manchestrian ones? Like the centre-right liberal parties, which subsist today in Europe? You mean American 'old style' liberals like JFK and Obama? (See why this is unhelpful labeling...?)
Horseshoe theory.
Diminishes their profession? Glenn Greenwald threw a tantrum and quit his job because his editor said, "Hey, don't you think this column would be stronger if you stuck to actual facts?"
No, that's not what they do or why they do it. Greenwald, for instance, spent yesterday and today echoing MAGA lies about how liberals were anointing Prigozhin as a hero.
In any case, the so-called Twitter files speak for themselves, if you look at the actual documents rather than the Taibbi et al. claims about them.
Just curious if you think anyone outside the USA believes your bullshit?
As David Nieporent points out, the Twitter files speak for themselves. Are you suggesting that people outside the US can't read?
I commend you for your well-meaning efforts to rebut benighted cultural warriors like bevis the lumberjack here, but I think you are wasting time and energy with it. Do you think you can accomplish anything in the least bit useful engaging with the likes of him, of whom there seem to be more and more over the course of time? If you do, what do you think it might be?
"I think you are wasting time and energy with it."
I am afraid that you are correct.
Have you bothered to notice that drag shows have been around for a couple of centuries and nobody gave a shit about them until they started waving their privates at 2nd graders?
To be clear – you seem to be referring to a drag performer, dressed as a granny, briefly flashing her granny-panties/adult diaper, adorned by some kind of protrusion that seems to be an obviously-fake erect penis, within the diaper?
I might tend to agree it’s a poor choice for a drag queen brunch performance. But “sexualizing children,” it isn’t. It’s a gag that you’re intentionally not getting.
Do you have kids? Who gives a rat's behind how "obviously fake" the erect penis is? The first thing out of just about any kid's mouth is going to be "what's THAT?" At that point, both lying and telling the truth are poor choices, and it's a completely unnecessary corner for parents to suddenly find themselves painted into by someone who unilaterally decides to pull a stunt like that in front of young children.
"Just a joke" doesn't change the dynamic at all. The term "adult humor" exists for a reason. All the euphemistic handwaving in the world will not turn this sort of junk into child-appropriate material.
Funny how if you hurt their feelings with an actual joke the censorious leftists move to get you removed from society but their serious attempts to sexualize children or get off in front of children are labeled a joke regardless of the harm.
The. Word. Sexualize. Does. Not. Mean. What. You. Think. It. Means.
What do you call wiggling a fake dick in front of a room full of 2nd graders?
If that happened, I would call it offensive and inappropriate. But the only person being sexualized in that hypothetical is the person doing the wiggling.
It happened in the video I posted. An exaggerated dick underneath underwear.
So no harm to the children? Hell, why mess around then? Let’s show them porn.
You should try reading what I actually write.
Obviously, you're technically correct. (The best kind of correct.) But fixating on that just bypasses the substance of Bevis' contention, which (otherwise) remains sound.
Three lawyer gold stars for you.
What does "move to get you removed from society" mean?
Whatever the fuck it means... do that! Don't pass fascist laws.
When you are such a good parent you want to use the government to tell other parents how to do it.
Your argument proves too much.
What if the parent is a “homophobe” or “transphobe” who doesn’t want to affirm their child’s “identity”? Surely such parents should be kept in check!
And if parents have the right to decide whether or not to expose their children to LGBTQ stuff, what would happen to public school curricula where it is essential to teach LGBTQ stuff to kids without parental approval?
And in general, what if the parent is a clinger, a piece of “depleted human residue” who is superstitious and ignorant? Should children be subject to the whims of such a parent?
We *need* government intervention by which the superior parents “tell other parents how to do it.”
'What if the parent is a “homophobe” or “transphobe” who doesn’t want to affirm their child’s “identity”?'
This makes them a potential threat to the child's safety.
See, Sarcastro? Your parental-authority argument won't fly, it contradicts the Party line.
You make something about 'protecting kids' by stripping kids of protections because your hate for a particular group is more important than kids' safety.
See what I mean, Sarcastro? This was never about parental authority - the Niges of the world don't want parents to have the *option* of showing this stuff to their kids; Nige, et. al. want to tell the parents how to raise their kids.
You're willing to play these dumb games with kids' safety - well, please yourself. I made my point clearly enough, you feel obliged to keep adding to it to give yourself something to pontificate against like a two-bit street hustler in a morality con.
I’m willing to use your rants to rebut Sarcastro’s claim that this is simply about parents *choosing* how to raise their kids. You don’t believe in this - you want parents to be *forced* to teach your new religion to their children - but I doubt Sarcastro will push back against you, no matter how much you contradict his talking points.
‘I’m willing to use your rants’
Yeah, you’d prefer to ignore what I actually said, since it is a bit of an elephant in the room next to the shit you have to make up.
‘you want parents to be *forced* to teach your new religion to their children’
This is utterly nonsensical. Maybe you should try pushing for the ‘both-sides’ argument they tried in schools with creationism – LGTBQ people exist and are normal and have the same rights to live in soceiety as everyone else but have experienced long years of oppression, hatred and prejudice on the one hand, and LGTBQ people want to rape you on the other. At least make your fascist propagandising explicit.
I thought the fascists were the ones who *denied* parents the right to direct the upbringing of their own children.
The fascists are the ones who tell parents some hated minority group is coming for their children.
‘LGTBQ people exist and are normal and have the same rights to live in soceiety as everyone else but have experienced long years of oppression, hatred and prejudice on the one hand, and LGTBQ people want to rape you on the other’.
No they aren’t. They’re evolutionary duds who wish to pretend that they’re equal. They also aim to subvert all hegemonic cultural norms, not just vis-a-vis treatment of themselves, but across the board (whilst utterly failing to appreciate what it entails for their own ideas of equality and inclusivity).
Calling it a ‘gay mafia’ at this stage is obviously inadequate; it’s instead a totalitarian cabal that, in asserting its members into positions of power in media, academia, and government, have utilised established authoritarian techniques (including the panopticon over social discourses) to try to police speech and thought. A case in point is the Orwellian doublespeak regarding transgenderism. (Though I do note that this MAY lead to a schism within the cabal over the question of choice viz. identity selection and whether that’s even possible.)
Regardless, transpose your same claim to Islam: a racist, imperialist, apartheid religio-legal order, based upon the musings of a warmongering, illiterate, slave-owning, pedophile. Sharia has almost always and everywhere denied people legal and political equality (those notions are wholly alien to it), and imposed not just hierarchical legal status and rules but humiliating legal norms of subordination upon religious and racial minorities.
So keep insisting that holding this particular faith and its adherents in disesteem is ‘Islamophobic’ (or a move by ‘fascists’ who tell ‘parents that some hated minority is coming for their children’). That is, UNLESS, you’re criticizing Islam’s treatment of females or homosexuals, or if you’re otherwise a self-identified ‘progressive’ who feels content to state publicly that all religion is superstitious nonsense. (BUT only mention Christianity when doing so, lest you yourself get labelled a bigot, an Islamophobe, Anti-Semitic, etc, for saying Islam or Judaism is superstitious nonsense. And don’t worry if you’re a hypocritical moron for even worrying about that.)
Of course, all of this sort of Baizuo nonsense will fade from the world once America and the West lose this new cold war. Gay rights and power rests entirely upon there being an economically and militarily dominant America and a strong West, not weak and decadent ones. This is a fatal flaw in the Gay Cabal’s, and the Left's, overall strategy — especially as white heteros will increasingly no longer volunteer to serve in the US military (amongst other things).
‘They’re evolutionary duds who wish to pretend that they’re equal.’
Evolution is multi-generational process that usually takes hundreds of years it has nothing to do with what societies consider normal or equal. The last time they tried to turn evolution into a social philosophy we ended up with World War 1.
‘They also aim to subvert all hegemonic cultural norms’
In a free and open society people are free to push against cultural norms, that’s usually how societies end up freeer and opener.
‘it’s instead a totalitarian cabal that,’
Oh look it’s The Protocols Of The Friends Of Dorothy.
'Regardless, transpose your same claim to Islam:'
My only claim was that homophobic and transphobic parents might be a risk to lgtbq kids. Your struggle to transpose this to Islam was obviously a tough challenge, but you failed to riise to it. (Wait till you find out how Christianity treated other Christian sects, let alone other religions under its jurisdictions. Protestants, but the way, considered Catholicism superstitious nonsense. Maybe they still do.)
‘Gay rights and power rests entirely upon there being an economically and militarily dominant America and a strong West… white heteros will increasingly no longer volunteer to serve in the US military (amongst other things).’
Framed like that a LOT of things depend on an economically and militarily dominant America, white heteros are really shooting themselves in both feet because of their homophobia, according to you.
Evolution is a basis for adjudging something to be equal or unequal. Vestigial religious norms of a god who ‘created’ all men equal just aren’t going to cut it any more.
Policing speech and thought, in all areas of social discourses, requiring one interest group’s ‘preferred’; stipulations and conceptualizations under penalty (cancelling, legal penalties, etc) and the silencing of genuine dialogue about these matters, does NOT make for a more free and open society. It instead makes for one of the variety that Orwell explicitly warned us against.
There was also no struggle whatsoever transposing what you said to the Islamic context. It was easy, in fact; your say so otherwise means nothing. Indeed, the pervasive usage of the very term ‘Islamophobia’ is proof enough — including when that term gets bandied about by those who otherwise state that all religions are just superstitious nonsense.
So too with ‘homophobia’: holding gays to be in disesteem and unequal MUST be due to fear and hatred, which is in turn based on ignorance, right? It CAN’T be because you adjudge them to just be evolutionary duds who don’t warrant equal rights. In turn, it CAN’T be the case that gays’ claims to equality are simply reliant upon an archaic, religious notion of equality, one that will die as society increasingly secularizes. (Nietzsche thought it’d take at least a hundred years after the death of god for the idea of equality to die too.) No, no. Their claims of being ‘normal’ and ‘equal’ MUST be do based on a truly rational, and true, morality, one grounded in pure reason…
Why would the white heteros be shooting themselves in the foot by not enlisting, when they can see clearly now that their own government’s ulterior agenda is to thoroughly delegitimize and destroy them? Why would they sign up to go on foolish misadventures internationally and fight, not just for gay rights, women’s rights, trans rights, illegals’ rights, etc, but also for a narrative of systemic racism and white privilege in America — especially when most of those whites are (and have always been) dirt poor and powerless? Let the middle class feminists and gays, the illegals, and the multicultists do the dying for America’s global imperialist agenda instead.
'Evolution is a basis for adjudging something to be equal or unequal.'
Evolution is a random, involuntary process of genetic change over time, it has nothing whatsoever to do with equality.
'Policing speech and thought, in all areas of social discourses, requiring one interest group’s ‘preferred’;'
The fear of pronouns is one of the dumbest things in this dumb age.
'There was also no struggle whatsoever transposing what you said to the Islamic context.'
Only if you wanted it to make some sort of sense, otherwise it was obviously a doddle.
'holding gays to be in disesteem and unequal MUST be due to fear and hatred,'
Yes. Well said. Everything that follows in that paragraph goes to prove this.
'when they can see clearly now that their own government’s ulterior agenda is to thoroughly delegitimize and destroy them?'
Shooting themselves in the feet because of homophobia, racism AND misogyny. Just going by what *you're* saying, here, this is *your* premise.
‘Evolution is a random, involuntary process of genetic change over time, it has nothing whatsoever to do with equality’.
Thanks. I know what evolution is. I also know that equality is a socially constructed idea and norm. And I know that there are different bases by which people apply the norm (or various conceptions of the norm). Cheers.
‘The fear of pronouns is one of the dumbest things in this dumb age’.
The attempt to CONTROL pronouns is one of the dumbest things in this Orwellian age. Fixed it for you. (Although you can read about efforts to control ‘I’ and ‘we’ usage in Koestler’s Darkness at Noon regarding the USSR. Not at all a surprise that American ‘progressives’ are going down the same path.)
‘Only if you wanted it to make some sort of sense, otherwise it was obviously a doddle’.
Again, your say-so means nothing. Nice try, though… Islamophobe. ????
‘Yes. Well said. Everything that follows in that paragraph goes to prove this’.
Jesus... it’s called exposing circular reasoning…
‘Shooting themselves in the feet because of homophobia, racism AND misogyny. Just going by what *you’re* saying, here, this is *your* premise’.
No, the clear premise is that your government is engaged in a racist, classist agenda to destroy and delegitimize that segment of the American population, in an effort to socially re-engineer the entire USA — in a more extreme fashion than either the Jacobins in France or the Soviets in Russia ever tried to do. You can LIE about that all you want, but that’s what I said. You can also ACCUSE people of those things all you want (and HOPE that they give a flying fuck about those labels), but that’s not going to detract from what my premise actually is.
Sorry, but it’s like shooting fish in a barrel with you, so I won’t waste any more time responding. You’re obviously not very smart or interesting. Maybe go learn some basic logic and basic facts about the world outside of your narrow, parochial American lens?
'I know what evolution is.'
Then you know it has nothing to do with equality. It doesn't even have anything to do with societies.
'The attempt to CONTROL pronouns'
Individual rights mean the rights to control their own pronouns.
'Again, your say-so means nothing'
Like your attampted 'transposition to Islam' then.
'it’s called exposing circular reasoning…'
It was a good example of a self-refuting argument.
'No, the clear premise is that your government is engaged in a racist, classist agenda to destroy and delegitimize that segment of the American population'
Since the only reason to believe this is racism, sexism and homophobia, I rest my case.
'but that’s not going to detract from what my premise actually is.'
Which is more self-refutation.
Ah, here comes today's Sarc strawman special. The only thing I said about other parents is that they can get unfairly painted into a corner by "someone who unilaterally decides to pull a stunt like that in front of young children."
I mean, I could maybe begin to see why you might think you had a point had the announcement for the event said something like "WARNING: SUDDEN UNEXPECTED EXPOSURE OF GENITAL REGIONS, INCLUDING FAKE (WE WERE ASSURED, ANYWAY) ERECT PENISES" rather than the actual rather understated "constant entertainment, jokes and photo moments" -- you know, so parents could make an informed decision about the degree of smut they would be exposing their children to if they went.
As it stands, you're just flailing for a distraction.
'Do you have kids?' You said.
You've moved on now to assuming facts not in evidence that there is no parental consent.
That's not how this law is tailored. Speak to the law at hand, not some made up more defensible law.
Right -- not having kids is about the only way not to understand the dynamic I then mentioned -- their natural ruthless curiosity that makes it nigh unto impossible to unring the bell in a situation like this. Quite straightforward unless you're trying to make it otherwise.
You know, I've had quite enough of your old tired game of going off on a tangent and then, if I respond to it, accusing me of changing my position. Feel free to address my original point, or move your troll show on down the road.
Having kids does change one’s perspective. But parents seem to be bringing their kids to drag shows so seems like you are wrong about the only way to explain is not having kids. Failure of imagination I guess.
You go off on a new thesis regularly - that and irrelevant pedantry are your thing. I’ve been around here too long to be pulled into such a tactic. Must be frustrating for you.
So there was parental consent in that vide
Holy fuck shut up about the video. We don't know, do we?
Plus, it's anecdotal, covered by existing law, and of unclear context.
I think it's telling how many of the more libertarian on here are mistaking you for a right-wing culture warrior. Your utter implacability in the fact of multiple arguments about scope, existing law, actual context, and more does not speak to someone in the grip of reason.
But I mean, what did you think "photo moments" meant?
Nige, did you mean W II?
No. The idea of social darwinism drove the thinking behind the expansion of the colonial powers, their antagonistic power-games leading to the network of alliances and treaties that cascaded when Archduke Ferdinand was assasinated, and the arms race. A lot of people thought a nice little war would be a fine adventure to temper the steel of young European men and weed out the weak. Mind you, in the sense that WW2 was a result of WW1 and in some senses the same war, as some argue, perhaps?
Thanks. I just finished Massie's Dreadnought, which, being mostly focused on the industry of war, makes no mention of those factors.
I think I agreed that it probably isn't the right venue for that kind of humor. But I also don't think that parents finding themselves having conversations with their kids that they're not yet comfortable having is more about the parents than the precipitating event.
Look, you may not want your kid to understand that adult sexuality exists, but most kids figure that out on their own anyway, and they're not harmed by that knowledge. This isn't really about the kids, at all.
You ask if I have kids, but I wonder if you've even met them. Kids are gross! They love toilet humor. They're fascinated by what they understand about human sexuality. They don't get it, exactly, yet; but these kids are 100% talking about dicks, vaginas, butts, tits, and all the rest. A flashing granny in a diaper is going to elicit an (inappropriate) chuckle from them, much of the time. The kids are fine. You're the problem.
Drag has featured in childrens' entertainment for as long as drag has existed.
Private companies deciding to censor harrassment and tweets of the political opponents of politicians who said, "Censor that or section 230 might get broken" are not operating of their own free will.
Never happened; you made this up based in your dumbass gut feels; you love the story you tell yourself so much you can’t top posting it.
You are amazingly casual about claiming that things that publicly happened are just fiction. It's gotten to the point where it's just pro forma now, isn't it? It's not a matter of persuading anybody at this point, just of never, ever conceding that you're wrong.
No. It’s that you have a habit of taking things as evidence for stuff you have actually speculated yourself into.
Case and point your link does not support the government forced twitter thesis.
And *twitter turned them down all e time* which rather shows you are quite wrong.
Did you even watch your own video?
Looks to me like a show where someone decided to bring their kid among a crowd of adults.
I have a very simple solution to your whining: Don't bring your child.
400 years ago, Quakers were hung on Boston Common -- legally hung on Boston Common.
That was how children were protected back then.
Wow. I didn't realize Quakers were such a threat to children!
Wait til you heard about that stuff Wilford Brimley was pushing on kids!
Diabeetus?
It had nothing to do with children. They had been banished from the colony for heresy, with a threat of execution should they return. They returned. They were executed. Children lived in the colony, but that's the only connection.
Just over 300 years ago French aristocrats were legally executed by guillotine in Paris.
That's how children were protected back then.
and should be today.
Always liked the Guillotine, no dangerous Cyanide fumes, Thousands of Volts of Current, Guys shooting rifles, just cut the cord and "Whammo" it's over.
OK, you probably have 15-20 seconds of consciousness left after Decapitation, so what? it'd be like watching one of those films of a Saturn Booster Tumbling....
Frank
Subjecting them to the tedium of your efforts would be the worst of all, edgebot
Perhaps concerned parents in Florida should train their children not to become pecker checkers.
Perhaps you should go fuck yourself,
Ooops! not kind or gentle.
So we're agreed - parental rights are paramount! Let's get to work reversing the other laws and policies which restrict parental rights.
First should be to remove women's divorce rights and family courts that prioritize them. Put fathers back in charge of households, and take all rights away from women other than the rights their fathers or husbands let them have.
So you went from parents having rights over their children to husbands having rights over their wives. Blackman might give you a "Oh Hale Yes!".
We should remove mens' rights. They're always starting wars and murdering and shit.
And flying your airliners, doing your surgery, the anesthesia for the surgery, suing the doctors for malpractice for the surgery/anesthesia,
and when's the last time a "Man" missed work for having a baby.
Ooops "Trick" question, as you probably would say "Pete Booty-Judge" but he's not a "Man"
Frank
Is there an avid fan of this blog’s right-wing polemics who is not an old-timey, authoritarian bigot?
I suspect there is, but the exception is not readily apparent.
I think you will find most of the wars and casualties came from the times after the women got the vote.
Well since the only major "Wahs" prior to Bee-otches getting the Vote (Voted for "45" in 2016, who'd a thunk it?) were the Spanish-Amurican, Civil, Mexican, War of 1812, and the Revolutionary Wah,
Yes, Most of the "wars and casualties came from the times after the women got the vote."
What next "More homeruns have been hit since Women got the Vote??" "More Cars have been sold since Women got the Vote??"
Seriously, that's so fucking stupid, you should voluntarily resign from the "Conspiracy" (Don't tell anybody)
You should have said what you did on a day I'm "Kinder/Gentler"
Frank
Most of the witch burnings in Europe occurred after the Church started to lose its grip after the Reformation. Easier to enter the Dark Ages than to exit, and it's the people losing control to blame, not the people gaining freedom.
"most of the wars and casualties came from the times"
fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.
BTW, most casualties, yes. Most wars, no.
Which is worse, the obsolete, deplorable bigots who constitute this blog's target audience or the disaffected, bigot-hugging, conservative law professors who attract that audience?
Carry on, clingers. Just so far as your betters permit, though . . . that's the American way!
Saturday Non-Kinder/Gentler Frankie here (on Saturdays I'm "Frankie") "Coach" Jerry Sandusky ladies and germs, reliving his "(Tossing the) Salad" Days!!!!!
Oooh!! what a burn! always loved insulting the Dumb Jocks (You look up "Dumb Jock" in the Dictionary you see "Coach" Sandusky's Picture)
"Coach" is the only "Conspirator" ashamed to say where he got his PE degree (OK, maybe "Criminal Justice" I could see "Coach" as a "Truant Officer" (He'd make me stay in School)
and for the Gazillioninth time, "Coach" it's "K-lingers" with a "K", you're just showing you've been in stir for the last decade(+)
Frank "We now return you to Kinder/Gentler Frank, after he tells you to go (Redacted) yourself
Periods of tolerance followed by authoritarian murderous crackdowns? Is that what you're again insinuating?
AIDS, these people are going to kill your loved ones. There's going to be massive social unrest in your country, especially as it loses global status and power. It doesn't matter if you tell yourself fairy tales about winning a domestic culture war. Even if they do 'lose', the cost they will impose in terms of lives, wealth, etc whilst doing so is something America will never recover from.
Keep goading them on though, AIDS. Make them angrier, melancholic, and more fearful of the future, Help to immanentize your doom.
How on Earth are the biased Family Courts going to reconcile the tranny issue?
What happens when a tranny comes in and demands all the preferential favoritism of an actual woman? What's the judge going to do?
Most of these Homos? probably get a blow job from the "Plaintiff" and rule accordingly. Peoples think "Sexual Her-ass-meant" was bad before, wait until the Turd/Burglars/Rug/Munchers get in charge.
Well, obviously point out that there is no "preferential favoritism of an actual woman," and that this is just another bad faith argument by far right loon BCD.
Well, once Western 'liberals' and 'progressives' are outbred in their own countries by people with evolutionarily superior memes, coupled with the West's loss of this now cold war, that's not impossible, n'est pas?
Well? Beck?
Kindler/Gentler Frank here, If it's OK to Sexualize children, why not do it right?
Get some Strippers from "Scores" (is that the name? "Scores"?? I haven't been to a Strip Club since "Sammy's Gentlemans Club" in Pensacola 1995 (which just closed after 45 years, Damn You Governor Sanctimonious!!!!!!!!!)
Maybe some Hooter's Girls (I know they don't Strip, but the Pantyhose?? Hey Now!!!)
They could read some Dr. Zeus, or sing The Wheels on the Bus, bet any normal 8 year old boy wouldn't care....
Frank
Looks like it would be pretty easy to fix the vagueness via some simple drafting changes.
Lets see who wants to defend drag shows which are not age appropriate for young children.
Have you seen some of these Tooty Fruities?? they wouldn't be "Age Appropriate" for Larry Flynt.
That's exactly the point. If they narrowly tailored it, it wouldn't have the effect they want, which is to shut down drag shows generally. A narrowly-tailored law wouldn't even do anything, because sexually-explicit children's entertainment is already illegal.
Except that the statute doesn't even forbid showing real genitals to kids. It's specifically about fake ones. It makes it worse to show a kid a fake breast than a real one!
If your answer is that real genitals are already covered in other laws, then why not just amend those laws to cover fake ones too? Because, obviously, the over-breadth is the point.
This would be an easy problem to solve if it were actually the problem they were trying to solve. No one thinks kids should be exposed to sexually-explicit performances of any kind without their parent's permission (or even with, if it's actually obscene). Why don't they just pass that law? Because it's not really about the children at all for these fuckos. It's just anti-trans red meat. It's even better for these assholes if the laws get struck down... it's fuel for the right-wing rage machine and it keeps the issue alive. What good would actually solving the problem do anyone?
"No one thinks kids should be exposed to sexually-explicit performances of any kind without their parent’s permission (or even with, if it’s actually obscene)."
I routinely urge people to avoid categorical statements like this. Of course some people think that. They're not remotely a majority, but they're around. There are some amazing sicko's out there.
That's the whole point. Of course you can find a couple of sickos of you go hunting around for them. But when you find one, you want to pretend like the whole Democratic party is exposing itself to minors. Just look at Bevis and his dumb video. It's retarded.
The question isn't whether you can find the sickos. The question is, "What does the side the sickos are sorta aligned with do, when they're found?"
Do they say, "We don't stand with those loons, let's work out a way to stop them!"
Or do they gaslight the opposition about their existing, while enabling their abuses by fighting any efforts to stop them?
The left are pretty firmly in the latter camp, from what I can see.
“What does the side the sickos are sorta aligned with do, when they’re found?”
Drag show story hours have been protested by Nazis. Just so you know who's in your camp. Meanwhile children at most at risk of abuse from family members, Christian pastors and Republican operatives. Exposing kids to sexually explicit performances is already illegal, with or without parental permission. Anyone sincerely interested in the sexualisation of children wouldn't start within a hundred miles of drag shows.
"Drag show story hours have been protested by Nazis."
That would be more of a slam if you weren't in the habit of calling everyone who disagrees with you a "Nazi". And to the minor extent it's actually true, "We're such pervs even Nazis are offended!" isn't exactly bragging rights.
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/neo-nazis-disrupt-drag-story-hour-new-hampshire-rcna90259
Google for just a moment before you come in looking like a fool.
And I'm sure you know Nazis are not going against drag because they are offended; maybe don't pretend they are in good faith.
That WAS "the minor extent it's true", in case you really can't parse English.
"And I’m sure you know Nazis are not going against drag because they are offended;" Says the guy who continually complains of "mind reading".
God knows we wouldn't want to attribute bad motives to Nazis, but I expect your feeling about their targets being 'sickos' and 'loons' and their feelings about them aren't all that far apart.
I'm perfectly willing to attribute bad motives to Nazis when they're doing bad things. Not when they brush their teeth or object to exposing children to perverts.
'“We’re such pervs even Nazis are offended!” isn’t exactly bragging rights.'
There's no way to make 'the Nazis are on our side' look good no matter how hard you try. Because lgtbq were actually persecuted by the Nazis. And now you're doing the same.
Well, that’s some fallacious BS…
The Nazis believed in, and implemented, certain forms of sexual education (with the aim of, amongst other things, eradicating STDs); indeed, they created some of the first such programs in Western civilization, versions of which are found in most Western countries today.
Does it follow that, to the extent you yourself support such policies in the USA, you’re to be ashamed for being in the same camp as the Nazis?
If there were Nazis marching for sexual education to reduce the spread of STDs in the modern US or anywhere else, you might have something resembling a point. I would note the Allies did the same with their troops, for what that's worth.
Nope, the point was noting the well-known form of fallacy.
If you want to make the case that basic hygiene is discredited as an idea because the Nazis promoted basic hygiene, go ahead. If you want to argue that targeting the same minorities the Nazis targeted for persecution and liquidation is the same as basic hygiene (and perhaps you guys and Nazis would both see it that way) you are also free to do so. The Nazis agree with you on the latter, anyway.
Take a deep breath, go re-read what I wrote in my last post, and then think about what the REAL focus was (ie, calling out the fallacy).
I've shown why the fallacy you're trying to construct doesn't stand up to the lightest scrutiny.
Funny how it has its own name already, though, yeah? 🙂
Yeah. 'Red herring.'
The sickos have been stopped. All the sick stuff is already illegal. Of course you can still find examples because people do illegal things. If you know a solution to that, let me know!
Drag by itself, even for kids, is just a performance style, like clowns or magic shows or stand-up. The right is trying to ban a whole genre! Magic shows have sexy assistants, are they next?
This is much more accurate of the right"s attitude towards mass shooters than the left's attitude towards child abuse.
There's a huge difference. The left's "methods" for trying to stop mass shooters will interfere with the rights of millions of law-abiding people. Our methods for stopping your filthy performances to children, at worst, will interfere with your "rights" to put on those performances for adults.
See what I mean?
Yes. There's no fundamental right to have a drag performance. There is a fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
Why is it that you leftists are only concerned with rights relating to your cocks?
The right to bear arms is at the price of, for example, guns being the number one cause of child death in the US. Drag shows never killed anyone. Just in case anyone's taken in by the faux concern for children.
For one thing, anyone who wants to speak/perform for Elementary School Screw-dents is suspect from the Get-Go. Spoke at one my Daughters "Take your Daughter to Work Day" (so why did I have to pick her up at School) Trying to explain to a room of Slack-Jawed (HT "Rev" Sandusky/Kirkland) 4th graders what an Anesthesiologist does. (One tried to help me out, "When I got my Tonils out they gave me a Lollipop!!!!!!)
OK, yes, a "Fent-a-Nol"(for the four fucking hundredth time, it's "Fent-a-Nil" "Nil" like all the Homos say with their "Football" scores)
Lollipop, (Its a real thing see https://drugabuse.com/opioids/fentanyl/actiq-fentanyl-lollipop-abuse/)
Yes, a Fent-a-Nol infused lollipop you'd give to a Moppet before his Tonsillectomy, Ear Tubes, Sexual "Reassignment" Surgery, just enough to fuck them up so you could slip in the IV, (like "Coach" "Slips" in something else)
But it'd be a classroom of Adam Schitt's asking how I get paid for watching peoples sleep (I don't know, but they pay me)
Frank
Oh my god suddenly it's so clear. You've got drug problems! Too much of your own gas and lollies I suspect.
Like "the Reverend" I'm sure you're (too embarrassed) to even try to lie about where you got your Medical (Law for the "Reverend") Degree. Or any other degree, I'm sensing a "Sociology" or "General Business" (I love "General Business" Grads, they always have Penny wrappers!!
Drug Problems? I have to piss in a cup so often it's become a problem at Golden Corral!!! The Fent-a-Nol Lollipops never caught on, takes too long for the little bastards to lick them, if they even will (Yes, some weirdo with a mask gives you a lollipop, like you're going to lick it? most kids aren't that stupid)
The "Gas"?? which one do you mean? Isoflurane?, Desflurane?, Sevoflurane?, Nitrous Oxide?? Which is probably more than you've heard in your pathetically under-employed (NOT Under-ed-jew-ma-cated) life, not really easy to abuse, although I guess anything's possible.
Really difficult to abuse the Gases, although I've heard of Docs taking some puffs of Nitrous at the end of the day (not Controlled, so fuck you)
Sorry for Dope Slapping you like Moe Howard, but it's Saturday, catch me on a Kindler/Gentler Day
Frank
Don't worry, I can take it! Just don't compare me to Lathrop.
Which one's the best? You're wrong about "not really easy to abuse" by the way... it's super-easy! https://i.etsystatic.com/6370880/r/il/ccd958/4110564707/il_340x270.4110564707_b2h1.jpg
According to the Democrats, parents have a right to show their children LGBTQ obscenities by attending drag shows, but equally DO NOT have the right to forbid their children from being exposed to LGBTQ obscenities if it's at a government school.
Kinda neat how these cases always get gerrymandered around the preferred goals of the Democrats.
I guess that's what happens when your preferred goals are also the Constitution's preferred goals.
It’s extremely helpful that Democrats get to keep defending sexually explicit drag shows aimed at children for another election cycle.
Yet another arguing against what they wish the law was not the actual law.
The Democrats in the Florida legislature should just introduce an actual law aimed at actually restricting kids' access to actual lewd and lascivious drag shows. That would be great! No one's defending that, and it would slash through all this Republican political theater.
Except that the groomers are an important part of the Democrat Party base
You mean the Republican base, of course.
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-31258231a862dc876bc366cf82d3d4db-lq
Authoritarians using state power to oppress minorities, cynically using ‘protect the kids’ pretexts while really vulnerable kids – like those in the foster care system – are completely ignored. It’s become so common it’s easy to forget how genuinely evil it is.
(Politically speaking - the right has NOTHING to offer but culture war, wasting everybody's time and destroying lives and hurting people on the way.)
Some minorities deserve to be oppressed. A sane society doesn't allow its undesirables to run amok.
"I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others."
Substitute "an oppressed minority" for "slaves".
And yet here you are.
"No one’s defending that"
Sure.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12230639/Were-coming-children-Topless-activists-drag-queens-spark-outrage-NYC-Pride.html
It would help the conversation if you people would admit what is actually going on.
Drag queens and LGBTQ activists marched through a Manhattan park on Friday as part of a weekend of Pride celebrations, with a chant of: ‘We’re here, we’re queer and we’re coming for your children.’
Yes, this is clearly meant as a sincere call for putting obscene materials in front of children.
You are a moron.
It's Daily Mail - automatic snifter of salt.
What does it mean Sarcastro? Why did they bring children up at all? Does it maybe indicate an attitude? Save us with your genius.
You don’t know your ads from third base about literally anything, and your patented argument is simply saying that something that is happening isn’t actually happening.
And speaking of morons, did you EVER identify the evil genius that was putting phony noises on Abrams sonograms? Being called a moron by someone like you is an honor.
'Does it maybe indicate an attitude?'
Since the right and credulous useful-idiot centrists like yourself are endlessly accusing them of being groomers, it suggests an attitude of defiance and mockery.
'It would really help if you would just admit that you're the degenerate child-grooming freaks the people who hate you claim you are!' Reasonable centrism strikes again.
Hahaha lol wow. You're so easily trolled by own-the-cons stuff. More proof of your right-wing creds. Also more proof of my point.
Are you incapable of understanding how this antagonizes the situation? And then you make fun of the people that are intentionally antagonized for being antagonized. That’s just fucking stupid.
And calling me right wing for pointing out that this shit ain’t helping shows that your intellectual limit is just throwing labels around. Helluva an intellectual argument you’ve got going.
But you didn’t point it out! You fell for it!
I happen to agree that own-the-cons is just as stupid and divisive (and antagonizing) as own-the-libs. The difference is, own-the-cons is pretty rare. So I suppose you can be excused for not spotting it right away. Whereas the Republican party’s only current policy idea is own-the-libs. Including this one, which, as demonstrated above, isn't about saving the children at all, but is just an anti-trans response to the left's actual policy idea of trans rights.
The fact that we still have actual ideas and goals is a major reason I’m a staunch lib. Look at you, trying to pretend to be above the fray when you’re clearly quite deep in the fray.
'And then you make fun of the people that are intentionally antagonized for being antagonized.'
People dumb enough to believe right wing lies and who feel antagonized by the existence and humour of gay people in the face of rising reactionary hatred deserve to be mocked.
One last comment and I’m out of this. Y’all are engaged in culture war bullshit because, well, I can’t understand why.
It’s like the political zealots and the education establishment has completely forgotten the reason for the existence of schools. It’s to educate children.
All of this drag and book crap does nothing to advance that. Absolutely nothing. You are spending so much effort trying to demean people that you believe to be your culture war enemies that the kids have become props. And when people who actually love the children -their parents- try to get involved they are ridiculed and labeled as terrorists.
This is shameful.
You have just perfectly described today's conservatives. Think on that.
‘All of this drag and book crap does nothing to advance that.’
Ah, bothsideism. The people launching all-out attacks on books and lgtbq people and the people defending books and lgtbq people from all-out attacks are equally bad, but actually the latter are worse because they're being atagonistic and won't admit that the people launching the attacks are right, even when the people launching the attacks are obvious and blatant liars. Do you have a column in the New York Times, by chance?
What have we learned today? Mainly that Brian is an awkward dad who has a hard time talking to his kids. Aww. Bevis is super overprotective and is going to raise weird kids that no one likes and remain virgins into their 30s. Sad. And Frank's kids have easy access to the hippie-crack. Woo!
There are plenty of child drag shows in public institutions. Maybe even the bulk of these events are essentially using taxpayer money. Those should go immediately but of course the corruptocrats will hold it up as long as they can. If you want to keep your grooming sessions at your own places, maybe thats legally allowed but its kind of funny how a man gyrating in front of kids would probably be arrested and publicly pilloried but if he does it as part of the LFGDFDFDFDFKFKDFKF movement it suddenly becomes worthy of praise.
Read the OP you weird rage-golem. Your complaint is not on point with the law at issue.
What — and I emphasize the next words — the fuck are you talking about?
EDIT: Oh, I realize now that you're a bad writer and you meant adult drag shows in front of children, not child drag shows.
This is the Volokh Conspiracy's target audience.
Does the Volokh Conspiracy generate bigotry, or merely attract it?
I'd settle for mental health hospitals.
Drag shows have been happening for forever and nobody gave a shit. Now they’re controversial. What changed?
That’s the root of what this case is about.
As I think I’ve made clear - to everyone except apparently Sarcastro - I don’t care about drag shows at all except for how all of this relates to children.
But it’s my opinion that none of this waste of time would have come up had it not been for certain educators insisting on sexualizing small kids.
Look at the video I posted below. Look at the list of books they found in Florida school libraries.
That’s what this is referring to.
No. I mean the one where a bunch of boys lived on a penis shaped island and did a circle jerk into the same mayo jar. That educational masterpiece.
Did you bother to watch the video? It’s a drag queen pulling up her skirt and wiggling her dick at a classroom full of maybe 7 year-olds. Then doing a bunch of squats like she was on top.
You always complain about documentation but when I post it you don’t bother.
Your answers are non responsive. The video is on a classroom full of children. That indicates it was a required event. And the Bible is a book written for adults that by law can’t be taught in schools.
We’re having two different conversations.
This is pointless.
How about the video I posted. You didn’t even look at it.
Do you have children?
It sounds obscene to me. It lacks all social, literary, artistic and political value.
Thousands of requests? Sure.
Law enforcement like Adam Schiff? Ok.
I’d tell you to get out of the hole but I think you’re actually comfortable there. You guys with this and the Biden family business are like Trumpsters and the documents and the J6 riot. If you ignore all the evidence then everything is fine.
Googlel Lynch's Law" and read up on the backstory.
Burn, baby, burn....
Of course, we all know that if this happened, Dr. Ed and his ilk would immediately label it a "false flag."
Oh c'mon man, that "Head Chopping Off Machine" in "Caligula"??? It's got some kind of value, if only being "That's really cool!!!!, Man"
Frank
It was so far from obscene, it's pathetic. Did you watch the clip?
Dr Ed 2 should clarify now whether he "expects" or "wants" this to happen; cheerleading with encouragement like "Burn, baby, burn" is pretty clearly the latter.
heh
The video you posted would already be covered by existing Florida laws on the subject of it indeed occurred in the context you suggest.
bevis,
I looked at the video. Pretty mild and in fact the performer was not even very good. If the event was private ticketed, etc. (which it was) I fail to see the problem. prepubescent kids see lot more explicitly sexual behavior at the beach.
And before you ask, we did let our kids see R rates films when they were less than 12 years old.
"Now they’re controversial. What changed?"
Some politicians figured out they could create and exploit a moral panic, that's what changed.
Well it attracts you, and your comment history indisputably demonstrates that you’re a mindless, hypocritical, bigoted moron. Your case therefore counts, at least prima facie, in favour of an ‘attraction’ view.
Also, why the either/or here? (Basic logic, AIDS. You know nothing about it.)