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Exclusion of Drag Show from Public Park Violates First Amendment
From Southern Utah Drag Stars v. City of St. George, decided Friday by Judge David Nuffer (D. Utah.); seems generally correct to me:
Public spaces are public spaces. Public spaces are not private spaces. Public spaces are not majority spaces. The First Amendment of the United States Constitution ensures that all citizens, popular or not, majority or minority, conventional or unconventional, have access to public spaces for public expression….
Plaintiffs Southern Utah Drag Stars, LLC ("Drag Stars") and Mitski Avalōx ("Avalōx") seek their opportunity to speak in the public square through a community drag show which they say conveys messages of diversity, inclusion, and support for individuals with non-traditional gender expression and identities. Drag Stars applied for a special event permit (the "Permit") to hold "Our Allies & Community Drag Show" ("Allies Drag Show") at a public park in St. George, Utah (the "City").
The City denied the Permit based on never-previously-enforced ordinances that prohibit special event advertising until a final event permit is issued. The record shows the use of this prohibition was a pretext for discrimination.
The City also enacted a moratorium barring all new special event permit applications for six months. At the same time the City's two-step blocked Drag Stars from holding the Allies Drag Show for at least six months, the City retroactively exempted the majority of other known violators of the advertising prohibition and exempted major swaths of events from the moratorium….
The court's opinion is long (60 pages) and detailed, so let me focus on the brief section on why the drag show is constitutionally protected speech, and then provide the court's summary of the other matters:
"Speech" [under the First Amendment] includes "expressive conduct" and live entertainment, such as musical and dramatic works …." {Schad v. Borough of Mount Ephraim (1981).} Avalōx and another Drag artist scheduled to be at the Allies Drag show explain that drag "is an art form, a source of entertainment, and a form of activism" and conveys a "valuable political message to convey that individuals with gender presentation and identities outside the majoritarian norm are welcome in public places." Given current political events and discussions, drag shows of a nature like the planned Allies Drag Show are indisputably protected speech and are a medium of expression, containing political and social messages regarding (among other messages) self-expression, gender stereotypes and roles, and LGBTQIA+ identity. Accordingly, Drag Stars' Allies Drag Show is protected speech under the First Amendment. ..
The City's related argument that it has a compelling interest in protecting children from obscene material is wholly unsupported on the record as to Plaintiffs' permit. To be clear: there is no question that governments have a legitimate interest in protecting children from genuine obscenity. But the City has not provided a shred of evidence that would implicate that legitimate interest. Moreover, that legitimate interest "does not include a free-floating power to restrict the ideas to which children may be exposed. Speech that is neither obscene as to youths nor subject to some other legitimate proscription cannot be suppressed solely to protect the young from ideas or images that a legislative body thinks unsuitable for them." Moreover, "speech that is not obscene—which may even be harmful to minors—is a different category from obscenity. Simply put, no majority of the Supreme Court has held that sexually explicit—but not obscene—speech receives less protection than political, artistic, or scientific speech." Critically, the City has presented no evidence that the Allies Drag Show was anticipated to be anywhere close to satisfying even one prong of the Miller standard establishing whether a work is legally obscene….
Note that some cases suggest that display of obscene-as-to-minors speech (sometimes labeled "harmful to minors") might be limited in places where minors can see it, even if the speech isn't obscene as to adults; but the judge's opinion seems to suggest that the speech isn't pornographic enough to be obscene as to minors.
The summary:
The Advertising Prohibition and Moratorium are overbroad. They have blanket effects, though for limited periods of time, with very little protection of vaguely articulated and unproven City interests and are thus impermissible. The policies underlying the Advertising Prohibition and Moratorium are inconsistent with the many exceptions the City has granted, which belies the City's stated interests.
The scope of the Advertising prohibition is vast due to the lack of definition of "advertise" and "promote,"
The Advertising Prohibition is unworkable in practice because of the need for event planners to communicate and solicit support to prepare to apply for a permit and hold an event. The lack of any enforcement history for the Advertising Prohibition before March 2023 demonstrates the slight value of the City's claimed interest. There are many alternative means of protecting genuine interests.
The blanket effect of the Moratorium on all City property and facilities is not supported by empirical evidence related to specific facilities and the variety of their level of use and maintenance. The argument that the Moratorium is less impactful because it only suspends all activities for three more months, six months in all, reflects a failure to properly respect the value of expression.
The Advertising Prohibition employed to deny Plaintiffs' event application is unenforceably vague in many ways. It does not define the prohibited activities in certain terms. "City-sponsored" is also an undefined term. The haphazard exceptions granted and the lack of guidelines for permit decisions and issuance demonstrate the unworkability of the Advertising Prohibition.
The Advertising Prohibition and Moratorium are impermissible prior restraints on speech. To bar all communication about an event until a permit is approved is not just overbroad but an impermissible prior restraint on the exchange of idea. Similarly, to bar all public location events for a six month period is an invalid prior restraint, even though not based on content. Government does not have the right to halt or suppress general speech.
By applying to all speech regarding public events, the Advertising Prohibition exceeds permissible limits. The Advertising Prohibition is remarkably free of guidelines for granting exceptions, timelines for granting permits, and denial for permits for its violation. It is grounded in slimly defined government interests based on speculation, not on experience. Those interests never required its enforcement until Plaintiffs' permit application. There are much more narrowly tailored options for formulation of an ordinance to protect even the speculative interests.
By imposing a blanket bar on all new public events until mid-September 2023, the Moratorium, as applied to expressive events, is also a prior restraint on speech. The City has legitimate interests at stake but the absolute bar for a six month period failed to distinguish between constitutionally protected events and others, to offer alternative venues, or to distinguish between overused and other facilities. There are alternative methods of protecting the City's interests.
The City's Unprecedented Enforcement of the Advertising Prohibition and the Moratorium Barring was Unconstitutional Discrimination. The Drag Stars planned show is protected speech, applicable to traditional public forums. The City has failed to show that the Advertising Prohibition, with its exception for City-sponsored events, facially passes strict or intermediate scrutiny. It is neither narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest nor narrowly tailored to serve a significant government interest and leaving open ample alternative channels of communication. The City's asserted interests in the Advertising Prohibition are speculative. The City has betrayed those interests by granting a wide swath of exceptions. The undefined meaning of "advertise" and "promote" is so inclusive to defy tracing to specific City interests or applicant activities.
And even more compelling, its application against Plaintiffs is demonstrated by the record to be discriminatory based on content and viewpoint. The event timeline could hardly demonstrate discrimination more clearly. Failing to understand the vital nature of the First Amendment right of expression, the City has effectuated the will of vocal objectors at the expense of an unpopular group, with unpopular content and viewpoint. The Advertising Prohibition emerged from years of neglect to become a weapon against Plaintiffs.
The application of the Moratorium to Plaintiffs' permit does not survive intermediate scrutiny. The outright prohibition of new special event permits for all public facilities for a 6- month period substantially restricts speech more than necessary to further the City's stated interests in the Moratorium. Other less restrictive means could meet the City's needs, and specifically and proportionately apply to the facilities needing protection. Because the exemptions and failures to take effective action to prevent overuse have resulted this year on a greater burden on City facilities than last year, the Moratorium is a demonstrated failure….
Plaintiffs are represented by eleven lawyers, with or connected with the ACLU; the lead lawyer appears to be Jeremy Creelan (Jenner & Block).
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By this reasoning, couldn't someone equally well have strippers performing in the park? Of course, there's some reason why the strippers would be described as a political statement. And I don't think that stripping is inherently considered unprotected obscenity, so they couldn't bar the strippers from the park on that basis. Perhaps people think that children shouldn't be able to see the strippers, but what if it was described as a "family friendly stripper performance"? After all, it's not as if the court is using any *standards* to decide whether something is family-friendly or not.
Aren’t there laws against public nudity?
Exactly. If the drag show were to include nudity, the city could have just threatened to enforce its ordinance against the show; but it sounds like that wouldn't have worked, because the show didn't contain nudity.
Haven't drag shows included nudity? I see nothing in the OP that spells out the content of the show.
Have they? Do any of the absolute melts here with such staggeringly powerful opinions on drag shows actually know what they consist of?
Please feel free to enlighten us.
Two beautiful curvey smoking hot models decked out in glorious colours and finery stand side by side and purr and growl at each other then to tumultuous applause and cheers and whistles flash out in competitive performance towards a finish line.
Nige finds guys pretending to be women “beautiful curvey(sic) smoking hot”. Eye of the beholder, of course, but hat tells us something about Nige, probably more than we want to know.
“… purr and growl at each other then to tumultuous applause and cheers and whistles flash out in competitive performance towards a finish line” isn’t, however, as “enlightening” a description of what “drag shows actually …consist of” as he pretends.
Given that it’s legally acknowledged that painting “Black Lives Matter” on a public street is now permissible “government free speech” it seems to me that the solution to a government’s inability to prevent recruitment to perversion in public forums is to convert these “public forums” to government ones. If a government says, “Yes, we only allow messages here that we approve of” and, e.g., post signs to that effect, the excluding drag shows ought to be permissible.
Lol.
Meanwhile, here's Gandy's idea of wholesome family entertainment:
https://assets.change.org/photos/0/fa/cf/rVFACfEnifSsmQQ-400x225-noPad.jpg?1556582709
If those were little boys you'd be cheering up and down and stuffing $1's in their g-strings like at Pride Parades and Drag shows.
@Randal: Unlike the clear evidence that you are a piece of shit, your basis for that claim is nonexistent.
Here's your chance! Call for banning beauty pageants! Otherwise you're a lying sack.
Is that image one you keep on your computer?
The only time I've seen its like is in connection with the JonBenét Ramsey murder. Her mom was and her ilk are loons, of course. Is the drag equivalent your real fantasy, sicko?
There is no drag equivalent.
In the Black Lives Matter case, the public street was still a public forum. What made the painting government speech was the permanence of the message. People still had the right to walk or drive on the streets displaying whatever temporary message they like.
Similarly in this case, the government can refuse to allow permanent or semipermanent displays in support of drag. But, they cannot prevent temporary performances unless they close the park to the public. That’s not happening,
You are missing the point I am making about the BLM signs. They were legal not because or in spite of the ability of the public to demonstrate in the street. That is completely irrelevant. Message painting on the street was only available to express government-approved opinion (even when, as in the "Defund the Police" example, painted by others).
There is in fact no requirement that government provided facilities (stages, sound systems, etc.) in parks be public forums. Blocking other than government speech using those facilities does NOT require closing parks to the public. Marching in the park is not government speech, but the government can ensure that what goes on stage is.
Yes, but only because the painting was semipermanent. Public streets are public forums and the government cannot say otherwise. Ditto for a public park’s stages (Perry Educ. Ass’n v. Perry Local Eductors’ Ass’n said public fora are “places which by long tradition or by government fiat have been devoted to assembly and debate”).
Again, no one is suggesting that open public areas or streets in public parks be transformed into areas where only government speech is allowed.
And how permanent or semi-permanent stages are claimed to resemble the internal school email system referenced in the Perry case is lost on me.
In the BLM/Defund the Police painted slogan case the city was able to create a new message space and reserve it for its own messages, including when supplied by others after its approval. I can’t see why a city can’t do the same with a stage located on its property.
The city did not (and could not, per Perry) create a new message space in the BLM case. As Eugene explained, it was the permanence factor of the painting, derived from Pleasant Grove City v. Summum, that allowed the city to claim it was government speech.
And what was lacking was evidence that there was nudity.
Because "drag" (see, e.g., Bugs Bunny, Tootsie, Mrs. Doubtfire) =/= "nudity".
Really not a hard concept.
Cross-dressing (e.g.Bugs, Some Like it Hot, Benny Hill) is/are not drag shows.
Yes, drag shows are sexually oriented and suggestive, whether or not they avoid nudity.
I tried to search for one, but the results are now all about politics.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=APwXEdfN1MlE-G4avSSmyz_mOi9EeCHMlA:1687133901170&q=%22drag+show%22+-race+-driver+-stockton+-roseville+-brunfels&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjaoPjGh87_AhUaD0QIHYXlDKoQ0pQJegQIBRAB&biw=1600&bih=1057&dpr=1
So male performers who want to dress and perform as women - (perhaps by reading a Dr. Suess book to a group of children for example), or women who want to dress and perform as men (possibly even reading the same book to the same audience), just have to re-brand themselves as "cross dressers" and the right wing agitprop will stop?
Huhn. I didn't realize it would be that easy to diffuse this culture war.
You're trying to change the subject, but will not be permitted to.
Certainly a woman could dress as Santa Claus to read Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer to kids in a library.
If her "Santa Claus" costume for doing that is risque and sans padding except to push out her tits something else is going on.
Where in Nige's post above is there any indication that the "beautiful curvey smoking hot models" (his description) are "guys pretending to be women" (your words)?
That's all in your head.
It's a drag show. It's a bunch of ugly homo's wearing woman-face. That's the definition of a drag show.
That came after Nige's "Do any of the absolute melts here with such staggeringly powerful opinions on drag shows actually know what they consist of?"
I don't imagine he was thinking of you, Zarniwoop, but the determined ignorance fits.
It's a form of drag, yes. Lol.
I'm sure some drag shows have, just like some cishet shows for the last ... I dunno, 10,000 years or more? have also "included nudity".
^^^^ Whoosh.
Let me remind you that he question here is what is to be allowed on stage in public parks.
Nige's pro-drag show description of drag shows: ““… purr and growl at each other then to tumultuous applause and cheers and whistles flash out in competitive performance towards a finish line”
I asmit to being left to wonder what what “flash out” and “finish line” mean in this context.
'Whoosh.'
Oh dearie me. Oh dearie dearie me.
You want to emphasize just how pathetic you are, why?
You are the gift that keeps on giving.
"cishet"
English please.
Google is your friend. What are you, 90 years old?
If you're going to use made up slurs, the least you can do is define them when asked.
It's not a slur. And nah, I don't feel obligated to respond to a troll who pantomimes ignorance about a reasonbly common phrase and derides it as not-English.
Come to think of it, maybe you should google it too.
"Cis" means that you're not deranged enough to imagine that your gender was "assigned", but instead accept that it just is what it is.
I would absolutely say that a brunette who “identifies” as a blonde despite her dark roots is deranged if she believes that her blondness is anything other than out of a bottle. Something similarl is going on if you believe your siblings aren’t adopted when you know perfectly well that they are. Your attempt at conflating irrational belief in falsehoods with intentional blurring of distinctions is… well, we’ve been over this before. At this point it’s merely tedious and dishonest. Why am I not surprised?
And no one with a clue imagines that dictionaries are dispositive of anything much. If done well they can be descriptive and accurate, but political pollution is common and space to point out what is going on is anyway limited.
You're also misconstruing who has the burden of proof here. Start by rereading this part of the opinion cited by the OP:
Simply put, if the City claims it want to ban nudity, it can do so. But it can't say "we have an utterly unsupported belief that there might be nudity" as a fig leaf (see what I did there?) to ban speech that is clearly protected by the 1st Amd.
There is in fact the evidence that what was advertised was a "drag show". Again, consult Nige’s pro-drag show description of drag shows: ““… purr and growl at each other then to tumultuous applause and cheers and whistles flash out in competitive performance towards a finish line”
Yeah, if I take a stroll in the park, with or without kids, having this booming forth from the speakers next to the stage doesn't strike me as likely to be an improvement in the atmosphere. Yeah, I'm not sure that "Shakespeare in the Park" will be, either, but not everything is the same.
'Again, consult Nige’s pro-drag show description of drag shows'
Oh my.
You're stuck on "pathetic".
This is going to run and run.
But you appear to think a “cross dressing show” would be fine, correct? Because per your comment above, Bugs Bunny, Tootsie, Mrs. Doubtfire are “cross dressing” but they are not “drag”, right?
And thus you would also have no problem with a “cross-dressing story hour”, correct? Even though "drag queen story hour" is eeeEEEeeevil!!1! because it uses the word "drag"?
It’s just a matter of using the right magic word to describe “a public performance in the opposite gender’s traditional clothing and makeup”, and that ends the culture war conflict on the spot, amirite?
Your chances of being "rite" are about the same as of pigs flying in flocks.
No, Monty Python and Benny Hill did not put on "cross-dressing shows." They portrayed female characters in drag because the featured actors were all male. Bugs Bunny did it to ridicule Elmer Fudd for his obtuseness. Gaslighting us and claiming that "drag shows" are merely instances of cross-dressing isn't going to fly, and you clown yourself by attempting to get away with that conflation.
Hey Now!
Which is exactly the point I've been making for a few weeks now.
If those crafting and enforcing there ordinances would envision what they needed to do to legally ban strip shows, which are also not wholesome public entertainment, then they'd get the drag shows too.
Get it right or go home.
I was in St George coincidentally about a month and a half ago,went on a road trip through Page, AZ hoping to see the Wave at Marble Canyon, which would probably trigger a flashback, but well worth seeing. But you they only allow 20 visitors a day by lottery that is 48 hours in advance and they use geofencing to make sure you are in the vicinity before you can enter. But in any case Glen Canyon Dam and Horseshoe Bend are worth seeing, and then we proceeded to Zion National park which is about an hour from St. George.
We didn't have time for Bryce Canyon too, but that'll be next time. You could make a month out of Page, Zion, Bryce, North Rim of the Grand canyon, CanyonLands NP, Arches NP, Grand Staircase Escalate, Moab, and wish you had more time. If you had 2 months add in Mesa Verde, South Rim of the Grand Canyon, and if you must Las Vegas.
"By this reasoning, couldn’t someone equally well have strippers performing in the park?"
No. Public nudity isn't legal in most places.
Not obscenity, nudity. Obscenity, while it has a lot of precedent behind it, is problematic, in my mind, because it rests on a subjective standard (What is obscene? Who defines obscenity? Does it lock us into definitions decades or even a century old?).
"what if it was described as a “family friendly stripper performance"
That's as transparently dishonest as claiming all drag shows are obscene or sexual. Apparently even a drag queen reading a children's book to children is obscene, according to some.
"After all, it’s not as if the court is using any *standards* to decide whether something is family-friendly or not."
They are, they just aren't using *your* standard. Probably because "family-friendly" is even more subjective than "obscene". Good judges don't like to rest their rulings on the most extreme interpretation of a vague phrase.
Drag queens are offensive and obnoxious but not necessarily obscene, and no one with a clue would say otherwise. But that is sufficient to justify banning them from performing on stages in public parks and from reading to kids or anyone else in libraries.
And, no, strip shows do not necessarily involve full nudity, or even nipple exposure, but that doesn’t make them suitable for stages in public parks either. Or public libraries.
That this isn’t obvious is a clear sign of the degeneracy this society has fallen into.
Let me rephrase. Obviously the strippers would violate public nudity laws. What's the difference between a no public nudity law (providing the nudity is not obscene) and a no public drag show law? For instance, wouldn't they both count as content-based restrictions? And couldn't the court equally declare that something is "family friendly nudity" just like they declare a "family friendly drag show"?
It must be the case that either nudity is obscene or is non-expressive conduct.
Wrong and wrong.
Dunno. What’s the difference between a no public nudity law (providing the nudity is not obscene) and a no public rock-n-roll show law? (but jazz, classical, gospel, & sea shanties are all fine) For instance, wouldn’t they both count as content-based restrictions?
Maybe you’re arguing that the real problem is that blanket anti-nudity laws are overinclusive?
WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN???
This is what some on the left think of children:
https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1670455025485721602
I'll take "Mr. Bumble is a fan of Jordan Peterson" for my "least surprising fact of the day", thank you.
Didn't follow the link? See the story in the tweet.
Jordan Peterson quote-tweeting an account called "End Wokeness" tweeting an unsourced newspaper account has to be the very definition of an unreliable social media source. The only way this whole mess would be even more unreliable is if it was Trump retweeting Peterson. It's like stacking liars on top of liars. Turtles all the way down.
That said, I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to share this article. It's not like it's wrong. What point are you trying to make?
Not a "fan" of and know very little about Jordan Peterson.
Link was from Instapundit and I too am bothered by the lack of the source. Do you think it is made up?
"That said, I’m not entirely sure why you felt the need to share this article. It’s not like it’s wrong. What point are you trying to make?" Not sure what you mean. "It's not like it's wrong" What's wrong; your comment or the article?
Was your comment that there should be concern for the children or sarc? I thought the article, by its nature,pointed to the lack of
concern for children by many on the left.
Who's not concerned about children? Not the ones pointing out you shouldn't be burning their future, that's for sure.
What does the prima facie plausible observation that having fewer children is a good way to reduce climate change have to do with anything we were discussing before? I utterly fail to see how it "point[s] to [a] lack of concern for children".
" I utterly fail to see how it “point[s] to [a] lack of concern for children”."
Tat's because your favorite pose is being dumb as a box of rocks. Thinking that one ought prevent the nasty little things from being born in order to (allegedly) do good for the planet does indeed embody a lack of concern for said nasty little things.
What are you talking about? It's quite easy to be concerned for children while thinking that a lower population is better for the planet. I think it's a bizarre, extreme belief, but it doesn't mean that person doesn't want good things for the children that already exist.
A willingness to cull children as a sacrifice to Gaia is not a sign of "concern" for children. Don't gaslight us about who you are.
You think this hostility to children will be expressed without high rates of abortion?
The study is from 2017 – this is from the intro:
“We recommend four widely applicable high-impact (i.e. low emissions) actions with the potential to contribute to systemic change and substantially reduce annual personal emissions: having one fewer child (an average for developed countries of 58.6 tonnes CO2-equivalent (tCO2e) emission reductions per year), living car-free (2.4 tCO2e saved per year), avoiding airplane travel (1.6 tCO2e saved per roundtrip transatlantic flight) and eating a plant-based diet (0.8 tCO2e saved per year).”
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541
Sounds plausible to me.
That's a logical conclusion from the data. That doesn't mean it's a good idea or isn't a bizarre or extreme solution. The people who believe that are lunatics, in my opinion.
“unsourced newspaper account”
Not very hard to run down, from the image, if you're not being determinedly stupid. Start here: https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/does-the-value-of-children-depend-on-their-usefulness/
Utilitarianism has always been a disturbing and dark way to approach the world.
The dishonesty of the “unsourced newspaper account” line was so striking that I merely duckduckgo'd the plainly-showed author and article title and listed the first hit.
Here's another: "In a recent poll we conducted, nearly a third (31 per cent) of 18 to 24-year-olds said they wanted to have fewer or no children because of concerns about their future environmental impact. “
https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/sustainable-living/climate-crisis-children-family-planning-b1889373.html
Well, yay for them. These are not people I want to reproduce more like themselves.
Wait, you think that a newspaper article is "sourced" just because I could have searched for it on Google? I wish you good luck with that one when you submit briefs in court.
That's one way to protect them from drag shows.
Note to self: Abortion is the Nige-approved way to protect kids.
Note to self - Gandy is genuinely hilarious.
Not to self — Nige is learning that if he attempts to say anything beyond snark he just embarrasses his side. Maybe he has an IQ that approaches room temperature after all? Is that possible?
Gandy. I'd say never change, but you're incapable of it anyway.
This is what some on the right think of children:
https://assets.change.org/photos/0/fa/cf/rVFACfEnifSsmQQ-400x225-noPad.jpg?1556582709
Second time Randal has posted this. He must have uit bookmarked. Hmmm...
I suspect the purveyors of this "show" think about children quite a lot.
I was tempted to say the same thing, but it's more like trolling than grooming.
Both.
And yet,
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/03/17/kristen-prata-browde-tiktok-drag-queens-child-sex-abuse/
A lawyer is using her TikTok to expose the pedophiles arrested in US each week and, surprise surprise, despite what some right-wing pundits and politicians would have you believe, none of them are drag queens.
Perhaps what drag queens go for is hyper-feminine males, and children by definition don't fit the bill.
I suspect the reasoning from some right-wingers goes:
Drag queens are perverts
Pedophiles are perverts
Therefore drag queens are pedophiles
The illogic is obvious.
Pink News headline: Title at link: “TikTok lawyer lists people arrested for child sex abuse to make important point about drag queens”
“The series of videos are an effort by the New York lawyer, who is outspoken in her support of LGBTQ+ people, to prove that drag queens are not a threat to children.
So far, her videos have summarised charges against 30 religious figures, one school official and three politicians. But not a single drag queen.
Her most recent clip was posted on Monday (13 March) and outlines nine youth pastors, one Catholic Church official and one school librarian.” [Is the 17 number below typical or atypical for a week?]
Must have been a right-wing librarian, I’m sure.
“What she found was that, across the week starting on the 21 February, there had been 17 total arrests that had made the news – none of which were drag queens.”
Wow, that really proves the point. Drag queens are much more common than 1in 17, so if none show up it must mean that they have a lower than usual propensity, amIrite?
It gets better:
““There are lots of cases that fly below the radar, but you can bet that if a trans person or drag queen – or a policeman or pastor – is involved, that’s an elevated thing. / I spent decades in the news business and I know what gets reported and what doesn’t. So a case about us would be reported.”
“Us”? Which of those is she/they?
“After once again proving that no drag queens have been responsible for child sexual abuse charges over the past week, Browde emphasised[sic] that it had been almost a month of making videos and no drag queens have harmed children, despite accusations by right-wing pundits. / She said that, because the data is incredibly valuable in proving that drag queens are not a threat to children, she is planning to go for as long as she can.”
No drag queens identified in FOUR WHOLE WEEKS?? This research is ready for peer review! Proof!
““I’m not naive – there are people in our community and in every community who commit these kinds of crimes.” So, “she” is definitely a drag queen? The article doesn’t really explain the “our community” bit beyond this apparent implication.
“Browde noted a specific bill proposed in Florida which, if enacted, could allow parents “kidnap” a child from across state lines if there is a belief that the child is getting gender-affirming care. / “I can’t imagine that states are going to permit their children to be kidnapped by vigilantes who want to take them to Florida.”
Yeah, kids are so much more the “their kids” of states then they are the “their kids” of parents. Why would parental objections to “gender affirming care” count for anything? Nothing like cutting off a kid’s balls to turn him into a complaisant little Pink News reader.
Kindler/Gentler Frank here,
I think there are alot of people thinking of "the Children"
maybe not in the way...oops, trying to be Kindler/Gentler
In the summer of 1972, when I turned 10, and my Dad was bombing "Commies for Mommie" in Veet' Nam, My mom took me and my sister to see "Buffalo Bob and Howdy Doody" at a mall in Omaha Nebraska.
I'd never heard of Bob or Doody,
Show was creepy as (redacted) I think I would have been less damaged seeing some kind of "Drag Queen Story Hour"
Mom also took us to see a production of the "Wizard of Oz" by some Junior College Drama Club, someone should have warned me the "Wicked Witch of the West" would make her entrance from directly behind me, preceded by her creepy scream (still have nightmares)
Like I said, Kindler/Gentler Frank,
I was glad when Dad came home, just so I wouldn't have to go to creepy Puppet Shows/Plays
Frank
Trying to keep drag out of elementary schools is arguably reasonable.
Trying to keep it out of a public space like a park is busybody bullshit. If you don’t like it, don’t look.
That would depend a lot on the meaning of "it."
Ooooh Ooooh Ooooh Mis-tuh Kot-air!!!!
Kindler Gentler Frank here,
"That would depend on what the meaning of "it" izzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (HT W.J Clinton)"
Frank
I just relooked and noticed it was a drag show pushing DEI. DEI is the snake oil of the new millennium. The people selling it don’t actually believe in it or use it themselves, but they’ll profit if they can get you to do so.
But still, they’ve got the right to do it, assuming they don’t violate any nudity laws or whatever. Government can’t be allowed to shut them up.
We don't always agree, but I appreciate your eminently reasonable perspective here.
Thanks I think. Unless you’re talking about my DEI snark.
I always say that our commitment to civil rights is only real if we support those rights for those we dislike or disagree with, and I try real hard to stick with that attitude.
Besides, I really got nothin’ against drag performers. Sometimes they’re entertaining and funny. I just don’t like the trend lately toward sexualizing small kids, which goes way beyond the drag stuff.
'I just don’t like the trend lately toward sexualizing small kids,'
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with drag stuff.
Nope, honest compliment that acknowledges your personal dislike while saying "But still, they’ve got the right to do it".
I just don’t like the trend lately toward sexualizing small kids,
I don't like it either, but it's hardly recent.
Child beauty pageants, which actually do sexualize kids, have been going on for decades. Remember JonBenet Ramsey? Don't hear a lot of complaints from the people yelping about drag queens.
“Remember JonBenet Ramsey?”
I remember it because it got a lot of media coverage, much of it about the creepiness of child beauty pageants.
I don’t recall whether there was much media defense of these pageants, so I could have missed the National Review article “In Defense of Child Beauty Pageants.”
(I don’t know who did the murder, but Wikipedia says, “U.S. District Court Judge Julie Carnes later concluded that “abundant evidence” in the murder case pointed to an intruder having committed the crime.”)
Well, yeah, I don’t like that beauty pageant stuff either.
We raised four daughters and none of them did that stuff. We encountered them to play (not watch) sports and learn to make music. A couple of them did dance, but it was ballet and modern. Now they’re all well adjusted results.
But the JonBenet stuff was done by the parents, not by the school. Big difference.
Yep, no sexual content at kids drag events at all.
https://www.thepublica.com/police-remove-journalist-from-drag-show-after-recording-drag-performers-spreading-legs-in-front-of-children/
Basically agree with you, so long as they publicize it. Parents considering taking their children to that park on that day should be forewarned, not show up and be surprised. Our local parks advertise events (flower shows, art shows, flea markets), so not asking to much to do that.
Are you suggesting that all scheduled events be required to publicize them, regardless of content? Or just the ones you think are icky?
You're a lawyer ... which one of those might be constitutional, and which one is clearly not?
All should be publicized, so the public using the park knows what to expect. Or the park can simply not allow events at all, and just allow the park to be used as a park.
Or the local government could take responsibility for any "speech" on its park stages and get the same "government free speech" exemption as it gets for paining "Black Lives Matter" or George Floyd murals on its streets and walls.
'is arguably reasonable.'
Why concede even that much to people so hostile to free speech and so driven by bigotry?
Why is this the only kind of "speech" you and your ilk are willing to stand up for?
It isn't.
Why do you lot only stand up for Nazis?
Review Nige's description of drag shows.
I presume the growling and other vocal effects will go out the speaker system, so "don't look" will hardly avoid the intrusion.
REVIEW MY DESCRIPTION OF DRAG SHOWS BEVIS THE GROWLING
Here: "Two beautiful curvey*(sic) smoking hot models decked out in glorious colours and finery stand side by side and purr and growl at each other then to tumultuous applause and cheers and whistles flash out in competitive performance towards a finish line."
Thank you, Gandy, for being you.
You are not making sense. If it's reasonable to keep "drag" out of elementary schools, why isn't it reasonable to keep it out of public spaces regularly frequented by children, such as parks?
He answered your question in his post.
You're not required to take your kids to the park.
(Personally, though, I agree with you. It isn't reasonable to ban drag from schools.)
Or, if you want to be free to take your kids to the park without having to experience all those bearded "women" purring and growling at each other and otherwise "flashing out" maybe it's time to bring out the pitchforks.
Yes, people, don't take your kids to drag-related events.
What is with the prog compulsion to parade people in drag in front of children? Even if you are personally okay with it its such a weird random thing to fixate on.
Even for something nonsexual like wood whittling or stamp collecting, (which drag shows are not) it would kind of be weird and creepy if it becomes an all consuming obsession to do it in front of children to the degree that drag shows for children have become for progs.
Kindler, Gentler Frank here,
totals agreements, like my Idol WC Fields, never really liked babies or children (I like small dogs though, watta I gonna do? my wife loves Pomeranians) When they're really young they look like miniature old people (smell like them too, the crap/urine, the talc)
Then they get to that annoying Dennis the Menace/Urkel stage, if my daughters had been born at age 8 or 9 wouldn't have been bad.
Frank
Oh put down the crack pipe Amos. Drag shows have been around for decades. “Progs” spend zero thought on them. The right has become obsessed with drag all the sudden. Basically because DeSantis told you to.
Tell me, how come you weren’t frothing about drag shows 10, 5, 1 year ago? Because it’s a made-up right-wing culture war grievance.
Sure drag shows have been around for awhile but drag shows for kids are a lot more common now. Unless you can give me some links showing that Drag Queen story hours and similar were as big in the 90s as they are now.
Why don't you submit evidence that they're more common now? You're the one with the obsessive grievance. You ought to find out if it's even true. I'm the one who doesn't care, remember?
Actually no, you’re the one who brought up the argument and made an affirmative agrument that trans propaganda is no more common today and than it was several decades ago and leftist spend 'zero' time thinking about it so its up you to show it. But you can’t because its not even up for debate and you know it. You’re just gaslighting.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=transgender&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3
No, you made the assertion that the frequency has changed. Let's review:
Amos: "What is with the prog compulsion to parade people in drag in front of children?"
Randal: "Drag shows have been around for decades"
Amos: "but drag shows for kids are a lot more common now"
Randal: "Why don’t you submit evidence that they’re more common now?"
Amos, you're the one asserting something has changed from Bugs Bunny and Tootsie and Mrs. Doubtfire. (Other than you being whipped into a predictably stupid frenzy because you're an easy mark for right-wing politicians using culture war memes to get out the vote.)
Your claim, Amos. Put up or shut up.
Nope, by bringing up that 'drag shows have been around for decades' implying that nothings changed, he's the one who's bringing up the temporal angle. He also argues that leftists spend 'zero thought' on it and 'don't care' despite the irony of you two spending your time arguing with me. Sorry your reading comprehension is so poor. In addition I've already provided evidence to support my claim, alot more than he has which is zero.
I do care about stupid made-up right-wing grievances that are damaging the country for no reason other than to get far-right authoritarian assholes into positions of power. So I point out how stupid they are. I’m sure that you’re far too stupid / brainwashed to actually wake up from your cult, but maybe other people reading this will think wow, Amos sure is retarded, I better try not to be like that guy.
Yep the billions of dollars and institutional and corporate support and initiatives and blood sweat and tears you guys spend on your camp which absolutely dwarfs the handful of pols, youtubers and 4chan memers on our side is a complete mirage it doesn't exist!
At least for flatearthers, they aren't disproven on a constant basis right in front of their eyes. lol
Sure, have a grievance about that! I would too if I were as slow and afraid as you are. But why take it out on drag shows? They're not part of the billions of dollars and institutional and corporate support and initiatives and blood sweat and tears that we spend on improving the country for everyone.
New Bing: "The first Drag Queen Story Hour (DQSH) was started in 2015 by author and activist Michelle Tea in San Francisco with the goals of promoting reading and diversity."
So, yes, first move was by the Progs.
Nobody wants to look as dumbass as you, Randal, unless it's Nige.
'The first move.' The entire tradition of pantomime, and everyone else on the planet, laughs at you.
Ok I love how you've had to become anti "reading and diversity" in order to stay angry about this.
But that moment of levity aside...
That's like saying "David M. Overton, the company's founder, opened the first Cheesecake Factory restaurant in Beverly Hills, California, in 1978." means that cheesecake didn't exist before 1978. Are you really that stupid? I mean yes, you've demonstrated it again and again.
Yeah, drag queen story hour is just like cheesecake and pantomime.
Being anti-propagandizing kids for the normalization of degeneracy and mental illness is not "anti-reading."
Anlso, I didn't have to BECOME anti-"diversity".
In which Gandy reveals that he doesn't get how analogies work.
Don't make me laugh. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=transvestite&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 Words change.
Anyway, I've already proven my point. You've got this terrible grievance that you admittedly don't even know (or care?) is true. So if it's not based on evidence, what's it based on? Your grievance handlers in the media and politics, who are obsessed with drag.
You're literally supporting my point showing a recent switchover in terminology and even at its peak usage. transvestite which carries a markedly different implication and outlook than transgender was no where near as popular. Thanks for finally realizing who is right.
Well for one thing ‘transvestite’ and 'transgender’ are not the same thing.
Yes they’re not the same thing. You bring up a very good point. Transvestite implies a change of cloths while transgender implies something more along the lines of modern LDFLDKFLDFLKDLKFKDJFL talking points. Its clearly a politically motivated switchover. They’re really big on manipulating and steering language in an orwellian fashion to serve their needs. Thank you for bringing this up and showing it clearly to everybody.
No, they've never been the same thing. They're two different things. They still mean the same things they've always meant. You can't do a switchover between words that mean different things.
That's all true. But what has it got to do with drag shows?
Are you shifting your position? Maybe you agree that drag isn't the thing that's changed, it's the politics around gender which have changed, and the right has decided to take out their fear and anger on drag shows?
No, they’ve never been the same thing. They’re two different things. They still mean the same things they’ve always meant. You can’t do a switchover between words that mean different things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They don't mean the same thing but one replaced the other in that someone you used to call a transvestite before would probably be referred to as transgender today. Thats the point. Crikey man, is something so simple really this hard for you?
If transvestite has fallen out of usage it's precisely because of the pointless confusion you are labouring under.
I'm sure you simply misspoke, as naturally, it's you who are proving my point. Any increase in the use of trans-related terms has been driven by the right's culture war. How you think books with "transgender" in them is evidence for drag queen story hours is beyond me.
But while true, that's not even the point that matters, which, you've given me the opportunity to repeat, is that you've got a grievance and you acknowledge you don't know whether it's based in reality or not. And that doesn't seem to even bother you. It's classic brainwashing.
Again, New Bing: “The first Drag Queen Story Hour (DQSH) was started in 2015 by author and activist Michelle Tea in San Francisco with the goals of promoting reading and diversity.”
Feel free to look for a tradition of drag shows in public parks instead, if you want.
No, the "right" isn't making things up. It's you.
Again, that's retarded, because Drag Queen Story Hour doesn't have a monopoly on kids' drag any more than Dairy Queen has a monopoly on milk.
Feel free to come up with an earlier date for this shit if you can.
Link?
No, the “right” isn’t making shit up. It’s you
I’m sure you simply misspoke, as naturally, it’s you who are proving my point. Any increase in the use of trans-related terms has been driven by the right’s culture war.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And your evidence of this would be? Okay lets just say that the right 'struck the first blow' even though its really impossible to trace the actual specific event which incited everything. By spending billions each year, tons and tons more resources than their rivals and holding events like drag queen story hours for kids events in a way designed to garner attention, and having corporate/government advertisements scream about LFDKLDFLKDLKIFKLDLFKFJL from all angles at all times the proLFDKFLDKFJIDFJLKDJMFLKDFLDF side certainly has been pouring their share of gas on the fire regardless of whether or not it was in response to a prank by some 4channer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How you think books with “transgender” in them is evidence for drag queen story hours is beyond me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Its a strong sign of the increasing prominence of the concept in society. Also you'll find far more drag queen story hour results in recent years than in a past era like say the 90s or early 2000s.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
s that you’ve got a grievance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't have any grievance for people to live their own life the way that they see fit but obviously thats not enough for the LKLKFDKDLJKFLKDSIKJLFDLKFLKLALS side.
This made me laugh real hard:
By spending billions each year... holding events like drag queen story hours for kids
But I get your point. You feel persecuted. My point is that you should take a deep breath and ask yourself, do you really care about drag queens reading books to kids with their parents' permission? Or is this feeling of persecution more about the drumbeat of the right-wing culture warriors piquing your emotions?
Did it not occur to you to do this?
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=transgender&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3
Oh Gandyprancer, try to keep up. That was Amos's original link from like, over an hour ago.
No it isn’t, moron. It's a reply to him.
Uh... one of us is missing something here. That sure looks like the same link to me. You didn't even change the smoothing.
Yes you are, Mr. Obtuse. Read it better. Or just follow the links and put them side by side.
Sheesh.
Yep, they're exactly the same. Transgender. What's wrong with you? You've got problems I think.
Well, Bugs Bunny dressed up in drag and tried to seduce Elmer Fudd, so there’s that.
I went to a drag queen story hour just to see what the fuss was about. A man wearing enough makeup to bury Jimmy Hoffa read a Dr. Seuss book. The kids screamed with laughter and giggles the whole time. Absolutely no one there would have thought anyone was being groomed. It was just campy fun.
Progs: Doing something where the appearance alone makes the statement is no big deal! Get over it sissies!
Also Progs: Flips out over tshirts saying or having a symbol that represents what they don't want to hear.
Since I’m probably a “prog” I should probably know what you’re talking about but I don’t.
He's saying that even if there's nothing remotely obscene about a Drag Queen Story Hour, it still has the effect of normalizing drag.
The goal of the right, of course, being to maintain a stigma around groups of people they don't approve of. Which apparently now includes drag performers.
"Which apparently now includes drag performers."
Which has ALWAYS included degenerate perverts.
Huh. Well, at least you admit to the charge.
It's not a "charge". Who the fuck do you think you are and why should I care?
I'm nobody and I have no idea why you care so much.
I wouldn’t use the word obscene since that is vaguely defined even though I'd agree with that assessment informally, but drag shows are ultimately connected to sexual concepts and so are sexual in nature a lot more so than stamp collecting or other hobbies. and even more so today where drag is more proudly linked to transgenderism.
it still has the effect of normalizing drag.
Which is sort of like saying a clown act where one hits the other in the face with a cream pie normalizes hitting people in the face with a cream pie.
The whole point of the clown costume is to distance clowns from normality.
But the degenerates are proclaiming that cross-dressing IS normal.
Things which are different are not the same.
Really? You think drag preformers are trying to project normalcy? You are a crazy idiot lol!
There was an article here, less than a week ago, about a federal court ruling that a public school could ban a T-shirt saying there were two genders.
That remains to be seen. Nutty opinion by Woke judge can be appealed.
There is no such compulsion, there is a massive reactionary homophobic backlash driving people like you to make a big deal out of a negligible amount of drag-realted entertainments intended for children. It’s another gay panic outbreak.
Okay show me any evidence that the Pride month brainwashing, and school LGBDFDJKFKLLFDJIDLKJFJLKJLF curriculum and corporate queer virtue signaling was as everpresent in 2005 as it is today.
Huh. I feel like it was even more present in 2005. There were more things to be fighting for back then.
^^^^ Asked for evidence for his gaslighting Randal tells us about his "feels".
I’ve decided today’s the day to make fun of you, I guess because you’re being even more brainless than usual.
1. I’m not even part of this branch of the thread, so no, no one asked for evidence of my gaslighting. Maybe you’re thinking of Nige’s gaslighting?
2. I do enjoy the fact that you experience these conversations as “gaslighting.” It confirms my suspicion that none of your opinions are truly your own. It’s just borrowed talking points. I, for example, have enough confidence in my position that I experience you as a troll, not as someone who has the potential to mess with my worldview. (If, although it’s difficult to fathom, you actually told me something I didn’t already know, and it changed my thinking on some point, I would thank you, not accuse you of “gaslighting” me.)
3. This whole thread is about feels. Amos feels like pride activism has ramped up lately. He admits he has no evidence other than the extent of his own anger. I feel like pride month has been on the decline for a while. You feel the need to expose your mindlessness incessantly. There’s precious little in the way of actual facts here.
“This whole thread is about feels. Amos feels like pride activism has ramped up lately. He admits he has no evidence other than the extent of his own anger.”
He has done no such thing. And the case this thread is about is itself evidence for the proposition.
I will rephrase: When Amos demands evidence from Nige for his gaslighting claim that drag queens and trannys and other perverts aren’t swarming us more then ever before Randal offers his feels that there’s been a decrease instead.
You two are peas in a pod, gaslighting in harmony.
Pride month originated in 1969 following the Stonewall riots, and spread rapidly.
"In June 1999, U.S. President Bill Clinton declared "the anniversary of [the] Stonewall [riots] every June in America as Gay and Lesbian Pride Month".[10]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_Month
So yeah, you're freaking out now because right-wing culture warriors like DeSantis abruptly decided to make it a target in order to boost their credentials with the MAGA voting base, not because anything changed much in the last 5 years.
Uh...no just because something is founded on a certain date doesn't mean it instantly goes to the peak of its popularity. LGBDFKDLLFKF nonsense in its current incarnation as essentially a trans focused movement has only really became as ubiquitous as it is now within recent years. Searching google trends clearly shows it taking off somewhere around the 2012-2013 period. Of course you already know this you're just gaslighting.
Yeah, when you lot started a hate campaign against trans people and passed laws targeting them, people objected. People aren't blind to the homophobia creeping in around the edges, either.
hate/targeted by laws: not being allowed to brainwash children into your cult at school. Or to receive taxpayer money for your rituals, or browbeat people into your belief system. Generally all the things leftists would object being given to rival cults.
You're just expressing some of the pretexts for the hate and oppression.
Taxpayer money for rituals. Huh?
Yup, tons of public money has gone into proLDIKFKDLFJDLKFJLD nonsense on the government level including for felons and children and they’re always trying to get more. Any other stereotypical greedy telechurch would be salivating to get their mitts on the public cash the flows into LDFKLDFMJLDLFJMDLKJFJLDKFJML{“:KIKJFLMDLKMFNIJK;ikj ewi[‘;dlo jfdiop[ qji8o90ep[w32fj iop[d2jowdlo;iscfjldksszlcdsa activist/cause coffers which would make the richest megapastor look like oliver twist
What rituals?
Celebrations of Pride Month, for a start. E.g.,
https://mediaproxy.snopes.com/width/600/https://media.snopes.com/2023/06/flag_atop_white_house.png
So ... you're confused by the difference between 1969 and 1999 and 2012?
We you frothing at the mouth in "2012-2013", or is this just a recent phenomena because you're blindly following manipulative & divisive propaganda?
Your blissful ignorance of events occurring over the last 50 years doesn't mean they didn't happen.
Going solely on my memory, I think there has been more attention to trans rights in the past 10 years, mostly in a good, dare I say progressive way. More recently, there has been a backlash from the Right taking advantage of 1) the likely fact the majority hasn't come around yet to accepting being transgender as normal, and 2) some sub-issues such as sports where there are good reasons not to support trans rights. The former reminds me of how people felt about gays 30 years ago (and that changed). The latter reminds me of how the Right uses late-term abortions as a wedge to undermine abortion rights more generally (that did not work).
“…I think there has been more attention to trans rights in the past 10 years…”
IOW, the gaslighting by Nige and Randal isn’t convincing even you to ignore the evidence of your lying eyes.
Gas-guzzling drag.
Confused much, Gandy? Josh is talking about trans rights, not drag. I agree that trans rights have become a hot topic lately. Amos and I talked about it in the other thread that I guess you didn’t understand. But trans rights aren’t the same as drag. They don’t have all that much to do with each other, really. The right just picked drag to take their anger out on, they don’t really care about it or even about sexualizing kids. (If they did, they’d be going after Catholics and rednecks, not just drag queens.)
Again, "New Bing: “The first Drag Queen Story Hour (DQSH) was started in 2015 by author and activist Michelle Tea in San Francisco with the goals of promoting reading and diversity.”"
2015 was not during the Clinton administration.
You got a problem with Pride month or corporate support of LGBT people?
Yep. And as Tranheiser Bush and Target have found out, I am not alone.
Why is it a problem for you?
I like the truth, and being a pervert is nothing to be proud of.
Corporate "support" for Woke lies (which includes coercion) is also offensive, including the effects of the overclass whoring after DEI scores and the like. And it's not JUST corporate shit.
The collection of right-wing bigots that Prof. Eugene Volokh of UCLA and a few other conservative law professors have carefully cultivated at this faux libertarian blog are especially bigoted today.
Did the Federalist Society issue an action bulletin to right-wing bigots?
They're not even present now.
1. Some of them want to rape the children.
2. Some of them want to be professional activists. You need opposition for that or donors won’t donate. Thinly veiled sexual content aimed at children is an effective way to stir up opposition.
3. Some of them hate Americans and know this makes life worse for Americans.
4. Some of them hate religious people and know this makes life worse for religious people.
5. Some of them hate families and procreation and know this makes life worse for families.
6. Some of them don’t care and are paid provocateurs by one of the above.
It’s working out fairly bad for them, BTW. Polls show a strong shift toward family values nationally. A significant fraction of minority voters are turning away from the Dems, and millions of families are leaving government schools, which will thin union ranks and cut union financial power.
Keep it up, you need the distraction from all the Christian pastors and youthworkers and Republican officials and anti-drag/trans/book/woke campaigners getting jailed for child abuse or possessing child pornography.
The churches are the worst. There’s even a Commie Pope. So, no.
Your premise is anyway wrong.
Bing: “The most recent case I could find is of Paul Clark, a former LABOUR MP who represented Gillingham in Kent for 13 years. He was caught with more than 1,400 images on five electronic devices and was sentenced to two years and four months in prison”
Well, there you go then, you hate Christianity and The Family too, apparently.
Again, not a drag artiste.
I thought we were talking about trans folks, not catholic and evangelical church leaders.
^ found #4
'Also because you’ll defend (or turn a blind eye to) anything.'
Bing: "...Hannah Tubbs, a 26-year-old transgender woman[sic] from California who pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl in 2014.... was sentenced to two years in a juvenile facility."
Which is weird, since "she" is now 26. (The rape took place when "she" was 2 weeks short of 18.)
The right does something shitty. Ben springs into action furiously making up motives for those objecting to the shiftiness.
Shockingly, all the motives involve persecuting Ben.
He asked, I answered. No one else answered.
And my description of your answer remains accurate: made up based on the huge chip on your shoulder.
Shockingly, Gaslight0 is lying.
Nothing Ben said involved persecution of Ben, other than in hios capacity as a member of the broad groups: Families, Americans or religious people..
“1. Some of them want to rape the children.
2. Some of them want to be professional activists. You need opposition for that or donors won’t donate. Thinly veiled sexual content aimed at children is an effective way to stir up opposition.
3. Some of them hate Americans and know this makes life worse for Americans.
4. Some of them hate religious people and know this makes life worse for religious people.
5. Some of them hate families and procreation and know this makes life worse for families.
6. Some of them don’t care and are paid provocateurs by one of the above.”
I defend drag because without principles of free speech who knows what the right wing culture warriors will go after next?
Also because you’ll defend (or turn a blind eye to) anything.
That’s a tellingly ridiculous take. I oppose some things, sometimes even things I defend.
My life not change much if drag gets banned. But you lot are not shy that it won’t end there.
Damn right it won't.
And the "end" goal of sexual content targeting children is not "drag shows".
You puritans see sex in everything. And Marx.
This for the children nonsense doesn’t get a first amendment exception, because you would ban Democrats if you could.
The 1A was never about letting perverts put on offensive performances in public, so no "exception" is necessary.
Glad you admit it has nothing to do with drag shows.
No, he will only turn a blind eye to Marxist agitprop. He will vocally denounce any failing by a conservative person.
None of this has anything to do with Marxism.
It's the adults that are offended, not the children. As I child I knew that Milton Berle and Tom Hanks were men. I just thought they were acting silly. There is nothing sexual about it to children.
It was only a few years ago that I stopped dead in my tracks and thought, "You know what? Doctor Smith from Lost in Space was the gayest motherf**ker on the planet."....and i had no idea!
Kindler Gentler Frank, even in 1970 I knew who the Gay teachers were (it was Nebraska, they got arrested and years in prison) OK, I sort of realized something was off with “Dr. Smith” but you know who fooled me (besides Liberace)??? Cesar Romero!!!!!! The Original (OK, not best Joker, H. Ledger, J Phoenix better) and “Duke Santos” in the Original "Oceans 11" (and best "Oceans" , no Special Effects can top Frankie S/Sammy D/Dino, Peter Lawford, Joey Bishop, a little slice of Angie Dickinson, (OK you can keep the Norman Fell)
Frank “Cesar Romero Gay? boy thats a kick to the head”
Oh, and Paul Lynde,
I was known for my dead on Paul Lynde impression,
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=paul+lynde&&mid=5544A98FCCB11A2F22D55544A98FCCB11A2F22D5&&FORM=VRDGAR
OK, the joke about how it's "OK to alternate between loving one woman or one man" should have been a hint
Frank "Center Square for the Win!!!!!!"
This is great. The kinder/gentler Frank has left the Queen speechless.
"There is nothing sexual about it to children."
Berle and Hanks, no.
Drag shows in 2023 with men dressed like whores doing gyrations is not remotely similar.
Don’t forget the massive knockers.
Hey Now!!!!!
Bob, the point being that all of us have had a steady parade of men in drag cast before us our entire lives. And except for Frank, none of us turned out...odd
Actually, there's quite a few of us "Odd Fellows"
we're flying your Airliners, Passing your Gas, Fixing your Cataract (Rand(y) Paul?? natch), and I'm not certain but I think I may have run into "45" in a Convention bathroom...
https://odd-fellows.org/
Frank
This is like saying having female entertainers interact with children is sexual because of strip shows. Or having male entertainers interact with children is sexual because of male strip shows.
You are a loon. Being a drag performer or a stripper is not remotely the same as merely being male or female.
It is going by that logic. Vroom vroom Gandy.
You follow a lot of modern drag, Bob?
It's hard to miss it. The only time this year I watched broadcast TV, it was while waiting for an oil change: a morning talk show on one of the major networks plugging a drag queen as groundbreaking, brave, bold, etc. They didn't mention that the 6'3", heavily built dude was clearly not actually a woman.
It's true that "I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK" was more groundbreaking when Monty Python did it in the late 1960s.
It’s not like all the other lumberjacks in the lumberjack chorus who edged away from him and disappeared were the object of the joke. THAT was clearly the normal and justified reaction of a normal person. Nowadays they'd have to be condemned for having the normal reaction of a normal person to having some previously undetected tranny launch into song celebrating his trannyness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Npi6PccBk (you can jump to around 0:52)
That’s the “Official Lyric Video”, which rather conceals the disgust.
Compare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FshU58nI0Ts
I seem amazing at avoiding it in the media I watch then.
Closest would be The Little Mermaid.
You really don’t want to know this about an actor who plays non-fags, but so far I don’t know this about Hanks (2 wives, four children).. He PLAYED a fag once in a movie I've never seen, of course.
The Volokh Conspiracy encourages use of bigoted slurs. This white, male, conservative blog’s fans eagerly accept the invitation.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit, though, and not a step beyond.
Yeah, it's not like woodworking organizations have youth classes, or like the American Philatelic Society has a youth division, or anything like that.
Drag shows can include sexual/adult content, or not.
I never said stamp collecting and wood working didn’t have any youth outreach whatsoever. You might try actually reading the post.
Drag shows are inherently sexual or at least a lot more so than the aforementioned hobbies as the whole point of them is ‘transgressing’ ‘gender’/sex. That goes whether or not they literally whip out their genitalia which I'm sorry to say happens more than rarely.
No, they're not, no more than comedy shows are inherently full of dirty jokes, therefore you cant have comedy shows for kids. Otherwise you could never let a kid watch Some Like It Hot.
Nige morons out some more.
Drag shows are not remotely the same vibe as, say, guys playing women in, say a Monty Python skit. Yeah, the Brits are a bit weird that way (and boys' boarding school homo activity may play into it though, as on Shakespeare's stage, an unavailability of females may play its part, too) but homosexuality and drag shows are completely intertwined.
All forms of entertainment and homosexuality are intertwined. Sorry, Gandy.
"… the whole point of them is ‘transgressing’ ‘gender’/sex."
You’re supposed to be kind and understanding and tolerant of people who decided to make a lifestyle out of "transgressing". Sarcastr0 will name call you if you’re 1% as disrespectful to the special people as the special people are to everyone.
Madison would never have written the First Amendment if he knew how it would be abused by judges.
Oh, no! We're doing something that a slave owner who's been dead for 200 years would have disapproved of??? Someone bring me my smelling salts!
Just keep screwing up the Netherlands and not here.
Sorry, Martinned, but after you pissing on the Bible the other day, this isn't terribly shocking. Try harder.
How dies interpreting a civil right broadly amount to abusing it?
If anybody abused the 1A this week it was the judge that shot down the gender shirt.
Remember, we want more civil rights, not less. And “we” is me and you and everyone else.
1A is for political speech, not freak shows
Bob going full fash.
Nige throwing around words too complicated for his tiny little brain.
Something proved too complicated for someone in this thread all right. Vroom vroom.
“Congress shall make no law…..abridging the freedom of speech….”
Please show us where it limits it to political speech.
Of course you can’t, because you’re just pulling stuff out of your ass.
It rather obviously also doesn't say that cross-dressing is speech.
It doesn’t say that what Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis did in some like it hot is speech either.
Or that on a message board Is speech. Look at you, abusing the privilege granted you by the 1A.
A message board is press.
A Tucker Twitter video is speech.
I don't know. I don't think I really want to have a "civil right" to have the government bake me a cake. (Or, even better, to have my fellow citizen bake me one.)
Nope, I'd rather stick with the ones listed in the Constitution, as they were understood at the time of ratification.
The correct move is for the City of St. George to declare that, due to the scarcity of public spaces, any private person or organization getting a permit to hold an event in a public space must, as a condition of that permit, set aside a substantial part of the event time for a response from those who disagree with the message of the event. The persons making the response will, of course, be allowed to use, for free, any sound system or other facilities paid for by the persons getting the permit.
This sort of condition is, of course, necessary to uphold the intent of the First Amendment in the face of scarcity, as the Supreme Court held unanimously in Red Lion Broadcasting Co. v. Federal Communications Commission (1969).
Sounds like a man and his soapbox doesn't have much chance in your world
Are parks in your world too small to fit a second person on a soapbox?
It's the world created by an 8-0 Warren Court, I just live in its stare decisis.
St. George and the Drag on public property.
"Government does not have the right to halt or suppress general speech."
Well, damn. I wish we had known that during the Communist Chinese Virus Crisis.
You kooks had all the chance in the world to spout your nonsense just like everyone else. In fact you guys did most of the talking. You still mad because Facebook slapped a label on your ivermectin/bleach discourse?
Yeah, that Right Wing Crazy John Stewart...
“Oh my god, there’s a novel respiratory coronavirus overtaking China. What do we do? Oh, you know who we could ask? The Wuhan novel respiratory coronavirus lab. The DISEASE is the SAME NAME as the LAB! That’s just a little too weird, don’t you think?”
Ivermectin?? Works pretty well for River Blindness, Jimmuh Cartuh's been handing it out in the 3rd World for years. Does it work for Covid?? Don't know, maybe some RCT's (I'd tell you what that is, but then I'd have to (OK, Kindler/Gentler Frank) explain to you like a small child why you're wrong.
"Bleach" is just another name for Sodium Hypochlorite, if you'd taken Chemistry in High School you'd have learned that, and it's less irritating given Intravenously than most of the Chemotherapy drugs used to treat Cancer. "45" was just suggesting maybe we should have an open mind about alternative treatments at a time when the (Wuhan) Virus was killing as many Amuricans in a week than killed in the entire (DemoKKKratic) Vietnam war...
OK, a little of the Meaner/Stricter Frank got out there,
Ohmmmmmmmm, Ohmmmmmmmmmm, Ohmmmmmmmmmm
Frank "God Bless"
Now, Frank, I know it goes against your politics, but as a medical person you know that ivermectin is only a macrobiocidal agent: multicelular organisms. Because its method of action is on the chloride channel of nervous systems. Bacteria and viruses don't have nervous systems. Don't work on them.
You'll have to give fourth grade Frankie a chance to google some of those terms before he can compose the appropriate invective accusing you of being stupid/gay/black/communist/all of the above.
Because I'm Gentler/Kinder Frank I'll refrain from Bee-Otch Slapping you for your purely Add-Homo Attack
I gather it's the holy grail of pharmaceuticals: A compound with only one effect, and otherwise inert!
Not saying the stuff actually worked against Covid, that was an empirical question, not to be decided by ideology or proven either way by Trump mentioning it. But you did know that the lungs have chloride channels, right? And that you can alter the prognosis for a lung disease by drugs that affect the lungs, too, not just ones that affect the pathogen?
So it wasn't as medically ignorant as you desperately want to believe, to think Ivermectin might be useful against Covid.
'Not saying the stuff actually worked against Covid'
Of course not that would be indefensible, even for you.
'But you did know'
Oops here comes the defence.
Judges declined to protect any freedoms during Covid. Judges either gave the government a green light to do more-or-less anything based on some "expert" claiming it might accomplish something, or stalled for time to let government actions against people continue until government was done.
People should have put huge fake boobs on, rights might have been respected then.
Wasn't that one of Trump's suggested covid treatments?
Fake Boobs?? maybe you're confusing that where with Sleepy claimed to play backfield at Navy with Roger Strauback
edgebot groping. As it were.
What is with the redneck compulsion to parade kids in whore makeup in front of horny adults?
I mean if you want to be angry about grooming…
https://assets.change.org/photos/0/fa/cf/rVFACfEnifSsmQQ-400×225-noPad.jpg?1556582709
Why do right-wing bigots insist on indoctrinating children with silly fairy tales these delusional, gullible conservative rubes peddle as true?
Childhood indoctrination is a central element of modern American superstition. Why do ostensible adults persist in teaching absolute fucking nonsense to innocent children? Some of them even mutilate the genitals of children!
Carry on, clingers.
Third time (that I've noticed) for this link. Randal has an obsession. Hmmm...
Actual examples of the sexualisation of children provoke none of the fury the non-existent sexualisation of children via drag shows does.
"The First Amendment of the United States Constitution ensures that all citizens, popular or not, majority or minority, conventional or unconventional, have access to public spaces for public expression…."
Is this really part of the original meaning of the Free Speech Clause in the First Amendment of the Constitution or is this relying on living Constitutionalist jurisprudence that has been transposed onto the First Amendment?
Public expression of your desire to make a degenerate spectacle of yourself? I don’t see any evidence that that’s what the Founders had in mind, actually. Or that those who passed tghe14A intended to block the States from continuing to keep degeneracy under control.
They really seem to be determined to make the case for not having public spaces.
Wow Brett, that's pretty sad that you hate free speech so much you'd rather not let anybody talk than have to endure the speech you disagree with. I suggest Riyadh, it'll suit you better.
If you actually thought Benny Hill was putting on a drag show or "cross-dressing show" in that clip you'd be self-identifying as dumber than a rock. Hill was cross-dressing for humorous effect in a way not remotely akin to Nige's description, a "curvey(sic) smoking hot model[] decked out in glorious colours and finery... purr[ing] and growl[ing] [and] then to tumultuous applause and cheers and whistles flash[ing] out..."
Since it’s not just me but everyone except the degenerates and destructive loons we absolutely should and must cabin such things into the private corners in which they belong. And if they won’t stay there then whippings and imprisonments are called for as a measure of social self-defense.
Because Josh's ipse dixit is baseless.
But Lefty legislatures were all over it, right?
"...Democratic Lancaster County Council Chairman Alston DeVenny..."
Now the Mayor. So, no, sorry, this baby beauty pageant is probably not a GOP-sponsored event.
Yeah, that’s exactly the same. And then there’s those nasty gymnasts, also exactly the same only maybe younger.
No bulges in the crotch, though. So I guess that and the facial beard and the lying on the back could count as differences.
There is another possibility: nudity is expressive conduct that the state may prohibit under the O’Brien test.
Are they? Net-net?
No, I don't. But if he's learned better, good. A defensive beat-down is necessary, and division from the pro-disease faction is a necessary first step.
Philadelphis (1993) was his first Oscar, Hollywood being the sucker for Oscar-bait that it is, but he'd "made his bones" at the box office long before that.
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls067560129/
...you pervert ignoramus cretin.
Feel free to pick a statement to disagree with. Your clowning yourself isn't all that entertaining, but it's more illustrative when you say something both moronic and SPECIFIC.
The only murder on Jan 6 was by an affirmative action Capitol cop. And there's no statute of limitations on murder.
Are you relying on no one bothering to follow the link?
“have this reminder of all the sick things the Bible endorses” is undeniably not merely quoting the Bible.
And some people still wear masks. Twinks of both sexes.