The Volokh Conspiracy
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FIRE Sues West Texas A&M Over Its Blocking of Student Group's Drag Show
From the brief in support of motion for TRO in Spectrum WT v. Wendler (N.D. Tex.), filed Friday (see the brief for more factual details, and some further analysis); the argument seems correct to me:
Introduction
West Texas A&M University's President, Defendant Walter Wendler, has declared that he will not obey "the law of the land." Instead, he insists on banning a recognized student group's event from campus simply because he dislikes the event's entirely lawful message. By moving for a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction, Plaintiffs ask this Court to put a swift end to Wendler's disdain for the First Amendment and prevent further irreparable harm to Plaintiffs' constitutional freedoms.
On March 20, 2023, President Wendler announced to the campus community that he is forbidding Plaintiff Spectrum WT from holding its scheduled PG-13 charity drag show because he disagrees with the show's viewpoint. Making matters worse, President Wendler has all but confessed that he is knowingly violating the Constitution: "A harmless drag show? Not possible. I will not appear to condone the diminishment of any group at the expense of impertinent gestures toward another group for any reason, even when the law of the land appears to require it." (Dkt. 1, Verified Compl., Ex. A.) That is textbook viewpoint discrimination. And it violates the First Amendment.
The Supreme Court has concluded that even controversial live theater is protected First Amendment expression. Se. Promotions, Ltd. v. Conrad, 420 U.S. 546, 557–58 (1975). If officials in Tennessee could not exclude a group from presenting the provocative play Hair in a public theatre because they disagreed with Hair's message, then surely President Wendler and the other Defendants cannot exclude students wanting to put on a PG-13 charity drag show in a campus space open to student groups for expressive activities, simply because the show does not match Wendler's worldview. Id.
Indeed, the Constitution's bar against viewpoint discrimination is vital to preserving freedom of speech at public colleges and universities. "[N]o matter how offensive to good taste" some may find it, expression "on a state university campus may not be shut off in the name alone of 'conventions of decency.'" Papish v. Bd. of Curators of the Univ. of Mo., 410 U.S. 667, 670 (1973). So, whether students gather on campus to support a political candidate, talk about the Bible, or put on a drag show, public college administrators cannot censor student expression just because they find it disagreeable or offensive.
Yet that is exactly what President Wendler is doing by refusing to let the show go on. The result is ongoing irreparable harm to Spectrum WT and its student officers, Plaintiffs Barrett Bright and Lauren Stovall. Above all, the eleventh-hour cancelation of their March 31 charity drag show—and President Wendler's moratorium on campus drag shows altogether—are depriving Spectrum WT's members of their First Amendment rights, which is always an irreparable injury. Elrod v. Burns, 427 U.S. 347, 373 (1976). What's more, Spectrum WT carefully followed West Texas A&M's process for getting event approval—with the full backing of campus staff—only for Wendler to pull the rug out at the last minute. If Spectrum WT cannot hold its March 31 event on campus, or similar events it plans to hold in the future, it will suffer significant injury to its mission of advocating for the LGBTQ+ community at West Texas A&M….
[I.] Plaintiffs Are Substantially Likely to Succeed on the Merits Against the University's Brazen Censorship of Protected Expression.
"The First Amendment is not an art critic," and drag shows, like other forms of theatrical performance, are expressive conduct that the First Amendment prohibits President Wendler from censoring. Norma Kristie, Inc. v. City of Okla. City, 572 F. Supp. 88, 91 (W.D. Okla. 1983) (holding drag shows are protected First Amendment expression).
The freedom of expression enshrined in the First Amendment "does not end at the spoken or written word." Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397, 404 (1989). Whatever the mode of expression, the First Amendment protects conduct "inten[ded] to convey a particularized message," (id. at 404, 406), and it prohibits public university officials from suppressing student expression simply because they disagree with its viewpoint or find the message offensive. Papish, 410 U.S. at 670. If anything, whether speech is protected by the First Amendment is a legal, not moral, analysis. Dodds v. Childers, 933 F.2d 271, 273 (5th Cir. 1991). President Wendler imposing his morals at the expense of free expression violates the First Amendment.
The First Amendment also bars public university officials from denying student groups access to campus public forums because of the content or viewpoint of a group's message. Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263, 267–70 (1981); Rosenberger v. Rector & Visitors of Univ. of Va., 515 U.S. 819, 828–29 (1995). And messaging within a broader genre—such as art, theater, and dancing—is also protected even if it does not convey a "narrow, succinctly articulable message." Hurley v. Irish-Am. Gay, Lesbian & Bisexual Grp., 515 U.S. 557, 569 (1995). Indeed, "[e]ven crude street skits come within the First Amendment's reach." Iota Xi Chapter of Sigma Chi Fraternity v. George Mason Univ., 993 F.2d 386, 390 (4th Cir. 1993) (fraternity "ugly woman contest" is protected expression). See also Berger v. Battaglia, 779 F.2d 992, 999 (4th Cir. 1985) (holding a blackface performance is protected First Amendment expression, even when it is "sheer entertainment" without a political message).
Under core First Amendment principles, Defendants' ongoing suppression of a peaceful charity drag show constitutes unlawful viewpoint and content discrimination. The Court should stop the ongoing injury to Plaintiffs' First Amendment freedoms and restore constitutional order on West Texas A&M's campus by issuing a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction.
[A.] President Wendler's Censorship of a Drag Show Based on Personal Disagreements with the Expression's Message Is Textbook Viewpoint Discrimination.
President Wendler's abuse of his powers to quash a PG-13 charity drag show because he disagrees with the show's message—real or perceived—violates the First Amendment. It is "axiomatic that the government may not regulate speech based on its substantive content or the message it conveys." Rosenberger, 515 U.S. at 828. "Viewpoint discrimination is censorship in its purest form," and government action "that discriminates among viewpoints threatens the continued vitality of free speech." Bible Believers v. Wayne Cnty., Mich., 805 F.3d 228, 248 (6th Cir. 2015) (en banc) (cleaned up). Indeed, government officials like college administrators are "inherently" incapable of making "principled distinctions" between offensive and inoffensive speech, and the state has "no right to cleanse" public expression such that it is "palatable to the most squeamish among us." Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15, 25 (1971).
To that end, "state colleges and universities are not enclaves immune from the sweep of the First Amendment." Healy v. James, 408 U.S. 169, 180 (1972). And that includes the First Amendment prohibition on viewpoint discrimination. Rosenberger, 515 U.S. at 835–36 (invalidating college's denial of funding to Christian student newspaper). True, courts often employ "forum analysis" to determine when public university administrators "in regulating property in [their] charge, may place limitations on speech." Christian Legal Soc'y Chapter of the Univ. of Cali, Hastings Coll. of Law v. Martinez, 561 U.S. 661, 679 (2010). But regardless of the forum's classification, "any access barrier … must be viewpoint neutral." Id. (citing Rosenberger, 515 U.S. at 829).
By picking and choosing which performances fit his moral tastes, President Wendler is engaging in viewpoint discrimination. Indeed, "the essence of viewpoint discrimination" is "the Government's disapproval of … messages it finds offensive." Iancu v. Brunetti, 139 S. Ct. 2294, 2299 (2019) (quoting Matal v. Tam, 582 U.S. 218, 248–49 (2017) (Kennedy, J., concurring)). And as President Wendler proclaims, he personally finds that "drag shows are derisive, divisive and demoralizing misogyny, no matter the stated intent." (Verif. Compl., Ex. A.)
President Wendler's stance mirrors that of the censorial officials in Southeastern Promotions. 420 U.S. 546. There, a group petitioned to use a city- operated municipal auditorium to present the rock musical "Hair." Id. at 547. The auditorium directors denied the application, reasoning that allowing the play "was not in the best interest of the community" and the board would only "allow those productions which are clean and healthful and culturally uplifting, or words to that effect." Id. at 549. The Supreme Court struck down the directors' censorship as an unconstitutional prior restraint. To the same end, this Court should put a stop to Defendants' ongoing viewpoint-based censorship of Plaintiffs' PG-13 charity drag show.
The Fourth Circuit's decision in Iota Xi also shows why the Court should enjoin Defendants' censorship. 993 F.2d 386. There, George Mason University imposed sanctions on a fraternity for hosting an "ugly woman contest" riddled with "racist and sexist" overtones, including contestants "dressed as caricatures of different types of women[]" (i.e., in drag). Id. at 387–88. George Mason's administrators cited many of the same concerns President Wendler relies on—that the event was degrading, amounted to harassment, and conflicted with the institution's mission. Id. at 388; Verif. Compl., Ex. A.
The Fourth Circuit had no trouble brushing aside the administrators' excuses. As the court explained, "First Amendment principles governing live entertainment are relatively clear: short of obscenity, it is generally protected." Iota Xi, 993 F.2d at
389 (collecting cases). The court likewise held the fraternity's drag skit was constitutionally protected, since it intended to convey a message, both through the mode of dress and use of a theatrical medium. Id. at 392. The court held GMU engaged in unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination by sanctioning the fraternity as the sanction arose from the fact that "the 'ugly woman contest' … ran counter to the views the University sought to communicate to its students and the community." Id. at 393.
Even if President Wendler's opinion were shared by all but the students here, he cannot justify stifling Plaintiffs' expression on moral grounds. That argument lost in Southeastern Promotions. It lost in Iota Xi. And it must lose here. See also Gay Student Servs. v. Tex. A & M Univ., 737 F.2d 1317, 1322–27 (5th Cir. 1984) (holding Texas A&M violated the First Amendment by refusing to recognize a gay student organization when the official responsible for the denial justified the decision "based on his perception that the organization would attempt to convey ideas" he found morally repugnant).
This Court should refuse Wendler's viewpoint-driven reasons for violating the First Amendment, grant Plaintiffs' motion, and put a stop to Wendler and the other Defendants' ongoing censorship of Plaintiffs' protected expression.
- Excluding Plaintiffs' Drag Show from Campus Public Forums Violates the First Amendment.
President Wendler's denial of use of a campus public forum to Plaintiffs also violates the First Amendment, to their ongoing injury. Legacy Hall is a designated public forum for First Amendment purposes. West Texas A&M opens its facilities, like Legacy Hall, to West Texas A&M students and student organizations for exactly these expressive purposes: theatrical performances before a willing audience, music, dancing, and banter. (Verif. Compl. ¶¶ 31–32, 41–42.) Thus, because "the University has created a forum generally open for use by student groups," "the University must therefore satisfy the standard of review appropriate to content-based exclusions." Widmar, 454 U.S. at 270. See also Pro-Life Cougars v. Univ. of Houston, 259 F. Supp. 2d 575, 582 (S.D. Tex. 2003) ("When as here a University by policy and practice opens up an area for indiscriminate use … by some segment of the public, such as student organizations, such area may be deemed to be a designated public forum").
Under the First Amendment, "a government … has no power to restrict expression because of its message, its ideas, its subject matter, or its content" unless it satisfies strict scrutiny. Reed v. Town of Gilbert, Ariz., 576 U.S. 155, 163 (2015) (cleaned up). To meet that high bar here, Defendants "must show that [their] regulation is necessary to serve a compelling state interest and that it is narrowly drawn to achieve that end." Widmar, 454 U.S. at 270. They cannot meet that burden. See United States v. Playboy Ent. Grp., Inc., 529 U.S. 803, 816 (2000) ("When the Government restricts speech, the Government bears the burden of proving the constitutionality of its actions").
For starters, a ban on drag shows is content-based (if not outright viewpoint- based, as shown above). It singles out a particular type of expression—drag—for differential treatment. That is textbook content discrimination. Reed, 576 U.S. at 169 (content discrimination exists when the government "singles out a specific subject matter for differential treatment").
Defendants' content-based ban of campus drag shows—including canceling Plaintiffs' March 31 show—fails strict scrutiny. And Widmar shows why. In Widmar, the University of Missouri at Kansas City denied an evangelical Christian student group the use of university facilities otherwise "generally available for … registered student groups." Id. at 264–65. The Supreme Court explained that such restrictions, which single out a particular subject for differential treatment, are subject to "the most exacting scrutiny." Id. at 276. The Court held that the university unlawfully "discriminated against student groups and speakers based on their desire to use a generally open forum to engage in" protected expression and that the university's stated goal, "achieving greater separation of church and State," was not sufficiently "'compelling' to justify content-based discrimination against respondents' religious speech." Id. at 269, 278.
Here, advancing President Wendler's belief that drag shows promote "misogyny" is not a compelling state interest. (Verif. Compl. Ex. A.) As a threshold matter, banning drag shows does not prevent tangible harm to women. Any women (or men) who might take offense from a drag show can simply opt to not attend. Likewise, those who agree with President Wendler's estimation of the value of the students' expression can exercise a time-honored means of "effectively avoid[ing] further bombardment of their sensibilities simply by averting their eyes." Cohen, 403
U.S. at 21.
Rather, President Wendler, like the administrators in Iota Xi, seeks to suppress Plaintiffs' speech "because it r[uns] counter to the views the University s[eeks] to communicate to its students and the community." 993 F.2d at 393. That is not redressing a harm. It is big-brother government insisting it "knows what's best" for women and that it can silence dissenting expression. But "[t]he state may not ordain preferred viewpoints [about women and femininity] in this way. The Constitution forbids the state to declare one perspective right and silence opponents." Am. Booksellers Ass'n v. Hudnut, 771 F.2d 323, 325 (7th Cir. 1985).
Nor is Defendants' ban on drag shows narrowly tailored or the least restrictive means of furthering their goals. See Playboy Ent. Grp., 529 U.S. at 813 (content regulation permissible only if the government "chooses the least restrictive means to further the articulated interest") (cleaned up). Neither President Wendler nor the other Defendants have banned any other type of expression from campus which might tend to disparage or demean women. And a content-based law is not narrowly tailored if it leaves untouched a significant amount of expression causing the same problem. Reed, 576 U.S. at 172. Plus, the government's objection to a speaker's message is not even a legitimate government interest, let alone a compelling one.
America's college campuses are no stranger to censorship, which is often visited upon students and faculty who find themselves among the minority viewpoint—including, in many cases, conservative and religious groups. See, e.g., Widmar, 454 U.S. at 265; Rosenberger, 515 U.S. at 830. From Central Washington University threatening to defund the College Republicans for protected speech, to Iowa State University threatening to punish the College Republicans for protected speech, to pro-life groups having to fight for recognition at the University of Arizona, censorship of expression on public campuses continues to fester. But students' expressive rights should not, and do not, turn on the whims of college administrators. The First Amendment does not play favorites.
President Wendler's censorship singles out one type of artistic expression out of many—drag shows—for differential treatment and censorship simply because he dislikes the message he perceives. It is unconstitutional viewpoint discrimination for the reasons explained. And putting aside President Wendler's confessed motives, the ban is unlawful content discrimination. A temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction are necessary to secure Plaintiffs' First Amendment rights….
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You'd never find a liberal group representing both sides anymore.
Good for FIRE for being principled. I mean, it's bad for the kids to be exposed to such Democrat Degeneracy.
While I find the drag queen ( and similar behavior, etc) to be highly distasteful, these is college age audience. Thus, they are at an age that the viewers / attendees can make their own choice .
On the flip side, display to elementary age and junior age kids is highly inappropriate and should be banned / censored.
My thoughts exactly. College kids are treated like adults for everything else. They should be punished when they misbehave. They also should be given the freedom to decide what to watch or not watch. At least at a public institution, which Texas A&M is.
concur with the college age kids
Just want to emphasize the despicable nature of believing it is appropriate for elementary school age children and junior high school age children along with both the promotion and defense of such
I agree with that part too.
My point is, that there was a lot of talk around here about the Stanford event (which was at a law school, where the kids are a bit older, but still) and how they should be punished. I agree that they should be treated like adults. But that cuts both ways. Adults are permitted to do a lot of things that are inappropriate for children.
In general, a drag show is probably no more appropriate in an elementary school classroom than is any flavor of Christian evangelism.
That is certainly true in the defiant world which you reside
oops - should read deviant world
Reverend Jerry Sandusky, always alert for young recruits!!
You mean it was despicable for my parents to let me watch Milton Berle on TV when I was a kid?
I don't think so. It was just some funny sketches.
There is a third aspect to this -- he may believe (or been told) that Title IX *requires* him to ban the event. The local newspaper is quoting him citing "EEOC regulations" and that may be coming from upset female employees -- both faculty and staff. This *is* Texas and I can see female employees being upset about this, including feminists in their late 50s who fought against the sexism of their youth.
His public rationale appears to be that drag shows "degrade women and are “derisive, divisive and demoralizing misogyny.”" That sounds like something that his Title IX Coordinator would tell him.
And then there is this: “Forward-thinking women and men have worked together for nearly two centuries to eliminate sexism,” Wendler wrote. “Women have fought valiantly, seeking equality in the voting booth, marketplace and court of public opinion. No one should claim a right to contribute to women’s suffering via a slapstick sideshow that erodes the worth of women.”
The whole article is worth reading: https://www.texastribune.org/2023/03/21/west-texas-am-drag-show/
And if that is what the issue is here, it could get *very* interesting...
"No one should claim a right to contribute to women’s suffering via a slapstick sideshow that erodes the worth of women."
Oh dear someone either hasn't heard of intersectionality or is keen on driving a wedge between natural allies. Drag has been at the forefront of the fight for lgtbq rights, and generally goes hand in hand with feminism.
sure it does.
Well obviously not the feminazis and drag-groomers that exist only in yout head. In the real world. Out here. Hello? *waves*
No, it can't.
Ed, have you noticed that 100% of the things you believe could get interesting *never get interesting?*
It's a pretty impressive track record, if you think about it.
It is interesting.
According to the plaintiffs nobody under 18 will be admitted without a parent or guardian.
They went further than that — they are going to even ban music with dirty words in it. Kinda like they know they are on thin ice.
I’d love to know what the real issue is here — and I wouldn’t be surprised if it is upset feminist employees.
Although this is also the Bible Belt and there may be some aspect of that as well in this.
'and I wouldn’t be surprised if it is upset feminist employees.'
Yeah, all the feminists on here in contortions of disgust at the idea of drag.
So sounds like it's pretty serious
There's nothing fundamentally inappropriate about elementary or junior high aged children viewing performers in drag.
What may be inappropriate is the actual performances given by those performers.
But it's entirely possible to have an age appropriate drag performance just like it's possible to have an age inappropriate book reading.
Yeah, like a comedian can have an all-ages set and an adult-only set, they don't even have to change their clothes.
...and of course an age appropriate presentation on firearms safety and appropriate use.
Goverment mandated and regulated with certification and licensing.
No objections from here.
Elementary children should be taught to stay far away from firearms.
I agree, but try it and see what happens.
Would it be "fundamentally inappropriate" for "elementary or junior high aged children viewing performers in drag."
to yell "Fag!!"
because thats what happened when I was an "elementary or junior high aged children viewing performers in drag."
and they were often not obviously "Performers in Drag" just gave off a Homo Vibe
Frank
Ah yes, the ‘degenerates,’ who need to be isolated, demonised and destroyed. Anyone looking for a definition of fascism?
If kids had been involved (that is, the controversy had taken place at a K-12 school) then I would hope the opposite outcome would occur. Exposing juveniles to drag shows is not about expression; it's about encouraging the kids to sterilize themselves irreversibly for life by receiving "gender affirming care." That encouragement should be a crime.
"If Spectrum WT cannot hold its March 31 event on campus, or similar events it plans to hold in the future, it will suffer significant injury to its mission of advocating for the LGBTQ+ community at West Texas A&M…."
Just curious as to how a "drag" performance "advocates" for alphabet soup?
Were Milton Berle and Barry Humphries among many others advocating for LGBTQ+++++++++++?
If drag wasn't closely associated with LGTBQ Republicans wouldn't be working so heard to suppress it.
Right. I don't recall protests when "Tootsie" and "Mrs. Doubtfire" were playing in theaters.
Drag shows then and now were two very different things, Mr. Bumble. Then, drag performers did not consider themselves to be women; they were making fun of women, in the same way that a white guy wearing blackface is making fun of black people. But call one of today's trannies a man and you get a Nashville attack. That (not the name calling but the sensitivity to it) is dangerous cult behavior we don't need in our country.
Adult students should be free to hold such events for other adults (with no children present) without interference.
University officials seem to be prone to a condition where they become unable to avoid meddling in things that are none of their business.
If you can be sent to war at 18 you should have access to ALL freedoms/responsibilities.
...but that is not the case in many areas of the law.
Only the ones Democrats currently approve -- subject to ever-shifting political winds.
" I will not appear to condone the diminishment of any group at the expense of impertinent gestures toward another group for any reason, even when the law of the land appears to require it."
Has it occurred to anyone that he might want to be sued (and lose) because of the precedent it would establish when a different group (e.g. white supremacists) wanted to have an event that would "diminish" other groups (e.g. minorities) and have "impertinent gestures toward another group"...........
If FIRE wins this suit, the precedent would preclude him stopping a Klan Crossburning on campus -- it's the ultimate "sue & settle" with the LBGTQ activists serving as useful idiots.
Another possibility, of course, is that he wants an excuse -- and he could say "blame the damn judge" to donors and legislators who are upset about the event, but knowing that this is a West Texas Ag school, I'm thinking more the former.
" Spectrum WT carefully followed West Texas A&M's process for getting event approval—with the full backing of campus staff—only for Wendler to pull the rug out at the last minute."
There's potentially more here too -- over the past 30 years, the Student Affairs profession has purged anyone to the right of Vladimir Lenin (I speak as one of those purged) and I would not be surprised to learn that said "campus staff" is *way* more supportive of this event than they would be of, say, a Trump rally or Chabaud festival dance.
So be sued & settle -- and then tell said campus staff to shut up and obey the order when groups they don't like want to have events they detest.
I keep coming back to him openly writing "even when the law of the land appears to require it" -- yes, administrators say stupid things with some degree of frequency, but I think this was intentional.
‘Has it occurred to anyone that he might want to be sued (and lose) because of the precedent it would establish when a different group (e.g. white supremacists) wanted to have an event that would “diminish” other groups (e.g. minorities) and have “impertinent gestures toward another group”
Ah yes, drag and white supremacy, famously equivalent. ‘We had to have drag so we have to have Nazis’ is never going to be a winning argument, even in your head.
Never mind
The Klan is a student group?
Assigned to judge Kacsmaryk. It's legitimately in his division based on the location of the university. The lawsuit was filed a week before the cancelled event was scheduled. Not the plaintiffs' fault, but time is tight. If judge Kacsmaryk is not stirred to action he can put the case on a slow path and the plaintiffs can get their drag show in 2025.
"Plaintiffs ask this Court to put a swift end to Wendler's disdain for the First Amendment and prevent further irreparable harm to Plaintiffs' constitutional freedoms."
What is the "irreparable" harm?
It's visibility -- all student groups want to be visible, it's why religious communities build ornate churches with steeples when a flat roof would probably do.
My guess is that the student leaders planning this event are already thinking of jobs after graduation -- jobs in which this event will be a major portion of their resume. Lobbying positions in Austin or Washington, maybe even paid positions with the group they are raising funds for.
No. You're stupid. Nobody with more than a single digit IQ thinks that.
Most constitutional harms like this are irreparable. Like, giving them money later wouldn't make up for the loss of their right to free speech. This is as opposed to something like suing someone for breech of contract where you can just get the money (perhaps with interest) later and supposedly be made whole.
Seems to me that irreparable with regard to certain speech would be if it were continuously banned.
That would be the village idiot take on the matter, yes.
As usual, you are wrong.
What is the irreparable harm?
Well, “The loss of First Amendment freedoms, for even minimal periods of time, unquestionably constitutes irreparable injury.” Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo, 592 U.S. ___, 141 S. Ct. 63, 67 (2020), quoting Elrod v. Burns, 427 U.S. 347, 373 (1976) (plurality opinion).
Who can spot the former president in this drag show?
(Hint: He’s the guy opening the curtain for this drag show.)
Enjoy, clingers!
(Especially you, Lt. Gov. Randy McNally -- I don't know your screen name at the Volokh Conspiracy, and you apparently don't mind use of your real name in similar circumstances.)
The difference here is that the video you posted was a comedy show of sorts and what is going on nowadays is more of a "steely eyed serious" type thing. Not really the same.
But you knew that, since you just troll around all day on this website.
Now let's talk about a college allowing a minstrel show with blackface.
Womanface is no different.
Bob from Ohio and Walter Wendler would be in the front row.
If they cuddled, Lt. Gov. Randy "Rainbows And Sunshine" McNally would be ready to respond to their Instagrams with plenty of heart emojis.
Kirkland, you clearly haven't spent any time around young people.
If this event is permitted to occur -- and isn't violently disrupted -- there *will be* a Blackface event performed. Partially in retaliation and mostly because the people doing it know that they will get people upset. (Kinda like pulling false fire alarms.)
There will be? Because there are so many racists just looking for their chance and believing their own bullshit?
That describes most (but not all) of the Volokh Conspiracy.
They are just trying to follow your standards. If people in blackface are racist, then drag performers are sexist. Simple as that.
Simple and easy and wrong.
Good lord do you have ANY non-shitty takes on anything?
Define “shitty takes”.
A take other than your own?
Shitty as in every take is un-nuanced reactionary drivel advocating authoritarian responses to things he doesn’t like often with tortured logic and analogy.
"Blackface is a form of theatrical makeup used predominantly by non-black people to portray a caricature of a black person." wikipedia
Men dressing as women but in giant hairdos, elaborate make up and extreme tight clothes usually built around extra large phony boobs.
Its a caricature of a woman so no different than singing in blackface.
“Its a caricature of a woman so no different than singing in blackface.”
Yes. If you remove the entire historical context behind minstrel shows and imperialist cultural appropriation of minority groups.
Different things are different.
Un-nuanced reactionary drivel using bad logic.
Tell that to the women it offends
Okay. That’ll be easier than your assignment. Women who “oppose” drag really just hate what they consider sexual deviancy, doesn’t really have anything to do with historical oppression like blackface does.
Mind reading?
AND "man-explaining!"
LTG knows more than any woman about what women think.
The principled liberals I know are all offended by your crudely exaggerated performance of stereotypes with the purpose of inflaming old prejudices and supporting historical oppression of people who defend liberty and individual rights.
“principled liberals”
Sometimes seen in the wild, but facing extinction.
“principled liberals I know”
These people do not exist, you do not know them: they are your fellow reactionaries lol.
"historical oppression"
No woman has been "historically oppressed". Obviously correct.
Do you even read what you write?
Not sure there are many living women who see drag shows as emblematic of their historical oppression. Or even related to it in any way.
"No woman has been 'historically oppressed'. Obviously correct."
No woman? Is that as true as everything else you have said, Bob?
Sure, they didn't get the vote until about 100 years ago. They weren't allowed to own land for much of American history. They were considered an extension of their husbands, so they didn't need to represent themselves because their husbands would do it for them.
But that doesn't count.
@Nelson: And giving women the vote led directly to a century of nanny-statism. So it was a bad idea.
Then all caricature is equivalent to blackface. But not drag, because it’s not caricature, though it *can* be, the way it can also be burlesque or cabaret.
"because it’s not caricature"
Says you. But we all see how the performers dress and act. They never dress like any regular woman you see on the street. Its all exaggerated which is the essence of "caricature".
It *can* be caricature like I said. But drag is entirely its own thing and has been for a long time. The exaggeration is an expression of the performers' own personas, as drag performers. The outrageousness is the performers being outrageous, not caricaturing women.
Look everyone, Bigot #2 defends bigot #1!
Good idea. Numbering the bigots at this blog might make it easier to keep track of them. We could reserve certain numbers for the racists, others for the gay-bashers, misogynists, immigrant-haters, etc., much as the NFL administers numbers.
The clingers would probably fight over 88, though.
Social Commentary from (the Rev) Jerry Sandusky!!!!!!!!
Unsurprisingly, people like Rev like the idea of numbering people they don't like or think are "lesser" humans. Sounds familiar.
You insult women and black people with the comparison, which is probably why you make it.
"Now let’s talk about a college allowing a minstrel show with blackface.
Womanface is no different."
Ha ha wow! Please tell us you aren't being serious.
Why is it different? Serious question.
Blackface is emblematic of historical oppression. Drag is not.
Minstrelsy has a long and racist history.
Drag does not have along and misogynist history.
Oh, so it’s the interpretation of the viewer rather than the intent of the performer. That makes no sense. The most prominent blackface performer was Al Jolson, who it turns out was way before his time as to rights for blacks. Your perception may not match reality.
I support FIRE doing this, and note that they probably really are not Defenders of Fascism like a lot on the left think. But it’s hard to argue that in early/mid American history that blacks were oppressed materially worse than women were.
No, the history is objective. Drag was not a broad social instrument of oppression; blackface was. This is fact.
And it is utterly irrelevant who was oppressed harder when – that is in fact an unanswerable question.
How is blackface oppressive? It’s insulting. It’s offensive. But how does it oppress?
And Al Jolson was an oppressor? He went out of his way to get opportunities for blacks in entertainment. He heard that a black couple that he didn’t know in Connecticut was denied entry to a restaurant so he drove up and took them to a dinner and dared the owner to throw him out. The Black Actors Guild sent a delegation to his funeral. But you know the impact of blackface better than they did.
And the question is at least partially answerable. In purely legal terms black men has the right to vote 50 years before women did. 50 years! And yes, obviously it wasn’t honored cleanly in some places but it was in others. Tens (hundreds?) of thousands of black men voted for five decades before any woman did.
Blackface is unacceptable because of it's oppressive history, not because it is oppressive now. The original thesis at the top of this thread is not about is it oppressive or not.
You sure did take out that strawman, though.
No, the question is not answerable. You chose an arbitrary metric and are taking it to the bank. That's not really proving anything.
Oppression is not some number each demographic carries on some one dimensional continuum between privilege and oppression; it's not a comparative attribute it is a qualitative one.
“I can’t say how blackface is oppressive but I say it is so it is. And on top of that here’s my usual strawman reference because somehow that’s persuasive or something”. Lol.
And somebody could have just shut down all that suffragette bullshit by simply pointing out they were just upset about an arbitrary metric. I guess voting is only an important right when you can make up bullshit about places like Georgia.
I’m done with this. Respond if you want, I won’t be back here to see it.
Other people will see this.
The question is not and never was about whether blackface is currently oppressive, it is whether it is currently acceptable. I'm keeping the conversation on topic.
I'm not sure where in my 'oppression is a qualitative not a comparative thing' you got 'women shouldn't vote.'
What are we to make of your claim that you "won't" be back here to see something, when you evidently don't understand verb conjugation and tense? Do you mean to say you will be back at some point, or that you already were back at some point? How can we trust what you write when simple conjugation seems to trip you up?
"No, the history is objective. Drag was not a broad social instrument of oppression; blackface was. This is fact."
Saying blackface IS oppressive is a different statement than saying it WAS oppressive.
'How is blackface oppressive? It’s insulting. It’s offensive. But how does it oppress?'
Perhaps you should read up on the subject, if you're genuinely interested?
'I won’t be back here to see it.'
Not genuinely interested, I see.
'Oh, so it’s the interpretation of the viewer rather than the intent of the performer.'
No. Drag does not have a long misogynist history. Blackface has a long racist history.
'But it’s hard to argue that in early/mid American history that blacks were oppressed materially worse than women were.'
Well, it was effectively illegal to murder women, as opposed to just technically. But no-one associates that oppression with drag.
"Oh, so it’s the interpretation of the viewer rather than the intent of the performer."
Yep, it's a brave new world out there. Of course, this is a one way street. If the performer is on the right team, the rules are reversed.
"Why is it different? Serious question."
Whoa, that escalated quickly! I don't really have much to add to the above. I think the history of the two things are entirely different. I don't think drag queens are celebrating the subjugation and oppression of women in the way that blackface and minstrelsy was with regards to blacks. I could be wrong, but I really don't think the conservatives who are passing laws restricting drag shows are motivated by a belief that drag shows demean women. Do you?
It would be a case where law and ethics far from coincide.
Odd how actual women don’t seem to have a problem with drag, whereas Blacks seem to universally find blackface offensive. All of which is, of course, irrelevant to the First Amendment issue.
The petition calls this a “PG-13” drag show.
Now, a PG-13 rating for a film means “Parents Strongly Cautioned” “Parents are urged to be cautious. Some material may be inappropriate for *pre-teenagers*.” [emphasis added]
https://www.motionpictures.org/film-ratings/
But in the petition, it says the would-be sponsor of the show “is forbidding anyone under 18 from attending the event without a parent or guardian.”
So this applies to teenagers as well as pre-teenagers. That doesn't sound like PG-13 to me.
Also note that according to the petition, children accompanied by their parents will be permitted to watch this drag show, so you may want to reconsider the “they’re all adults” response.
I agree with one of the Reasons commenters that the way to test to see if this is really about free speech is this: Have some student group invite some “de-transitioners” to discuss the harm they endured by being classified as trans and getting “gender-affirming care.”
A talk about such a current sociopolitical issue would be much further into the territory of “core 1st Amendment speech” than a drag show. Let’s see if such a speech would be allowed to proceed undisrupted.
Classic 'only speech I approve of should be protected' there.
No, the trial judge should follow his hierarchical superiors in the court system on the question of what's protected speech and what's not.
The attempts to legally suppress drag performances and trans people are a current socio-political issue, it seems to me, in that context drag shows are core 1st Amendment speech.
The majority of these attempts are aimed at performances targets at children; not consenting adults.
In the case this post is about, I think the university is wrong.
No they aren't, otherwise they would already be covered by existing regulations concerning children and adult content.
But in the petition, it says the would-be sponsor of the show “is forbidding anyone under 18 from attending the event without a parent or guardian.”
So this applies to teenagers as well as pre-teenagers. That doesn’t sound like PG-13 to me.
If it was rated R you'd go on about how extreme and inappropriate it was.
If it was PG-13 and they allowed unaccompanied teenagers you'd complain that they were letting in unaccompanied kids.
In actuality it's a student group showing an excess of caution and still being illegally discriminated against.
I don't know if it has any kind of rating, I couldn't find any source in the brief explaining the purported PG-13 classification. Did I miss something?
I have no idea what the source of the rating is, I suspect (without evidence) that a lot of performances self-rate based on guidelines.
But my main objection was you claiming their decision to restrict the audience beyond pg-13 as evidence that they were being disingenuous with the pg-13 rating.
Whatever their motive, they used a "term of art" for something other than its approved meaning.
You're really grasping at straws to find something to criticize about them.
I can think of countless non-movie productions I've heard described as "PG-13".
Seems like a trademark violation to call something PG-13 if it hasn't been rated.
It’s possible to restrict one’s audience more than others will. Someone could have a policy that no minors would be admitted to the showing of a PG-13 movie.
But I suspect the people calling it PG-13 are overestimating the threshold for an R rating. Blazing Saddles is rated R.
(Meant as a response to The Margrave of Azilia.)
There’s quite a long a tradition of actors representing the opposite sex *with the understanding that it’s all make believe.*
Are we still at that point as a country - willing to acknowledge that no matter how over-the-top the acting is, the men remain men and the women remain women?
Drag is not synonymous with trans, but they overlap enough to make it a target for fundamentalist right wing reactionary gammon-heads.
From the brief:
“If Spectrum WT cannot hold its March 31 event on campus, or similar events it plans to hold in the future, it will suffer significant injury to its mission of advocating for the LGBTQ+ community at West Texas A&M.”
Notice the “T” there?
“As West Texas A&M’s website explains, “Spectrum is a student organization for West Texas A&M’s LGBTQIA+ students and allies.""
"Spectrum WT’s goals are to provide a space for “LGBT+ students and allies to come together,” to “raise awareness of the LGBT+ community,” and to “promote diversity, support, and acceptance on campus and in the surrounding community.""
“Putting on the drag show is important to convey Spectrum WT’s collective message and to support the LGBTQ+ community.”
Again, what do you think the “T” stands for?
I said not synonymous, but with overlap, how hard is that to understand? They're not banning drag because it's drag they're banning it beause theyre horrible fucking transphobic bigots threatened by anything that isn't gender-conforming.
The "B" assumes a binary ... rightfully
Good one.
The B isn't prescriptive for anyone, not even bisexuals.
"willing to acknowledge that no matter how over-the-top the acting is, the men remain men and the women remain women?"
They are way, way past that line of thinking.
A private conservative religious university could potentially exclude a show like this, as “indecent” or similar, based on a traditional morals code that participants had agreed to when entering.
But this is not a private university, let alone a religious one. The university administrator must check his sense of prudent decency and allow it to be affronted.
Would note that umder Bostock, this is also sex discrimination, a Civil Rights violation, as well as a First Amendment violation. Objecting to cisgender people behaving like transgender people because the administrator thinks it “mocks” them is no different from an administrator objecting to transgender people behaving like the opposite biological sex because the administrator thinks that “mocks” them. Or to a white supremacist objecting to black people behaving like white people - doing things like sitting in the front of the bus or wanting to author papers instead of cleaning toilets - because the white supremacist thinks doing that “mocks” white people. Under Bostock, it’s all the same sentiment.
Interesting.
Objecting to men wearing dresses while telling jokes looks a lot like sex discrimination if you don't also object to women wearing dresses while telling jokes.
Or for that matter, white people made up like black people while telling jokes is equivalent to black people telling jokes.
Which means not even private universities can ban shows where white people made up like black people perform for an audience.
For that matter, a private business wouldn't be able to stop its white employees from wearing makeup to look black.
That is, if you want to ride that slippery slope all the way to the bottom, as I do not.
The Bostock decision was very unfortunate.
Based on news reports, the Texas A&M President is saying that men dressing as women (in general) mocks women, indicating he’s coming from the conservative rather than the progressive end of things and simply dressing up his conservatism in a more modern argot. It’s still a Bostock violation either way.
What’s interesting about this case is that I couldn’t tell just from reading the bare description whether the Texas A&M President is a conservative concerned about traditional concepts of decency, or a progressive concerned about about offending trans people.
From the news reports, he seems to be in the first category. But our society and culture is such that I really couldn’t tell. There’s a certain convergence of disapproval. Both wings of the culture would have reason to feel offended by such an event.
Well, since a large part of the point of such events is to be offensive, that's to be expected.
In a sense, the resistance to these drag queen events is somewhat protective: Since the goal IS to offend, if they weren't resisted, the people pushing them would move on to something worse.
What’s the offence? Racy jokes? Bad Liza Minnelli imitations?
Nah, this is pretty clear. You just have poor reading comprehension.
Q: Is this censorship?
A: Sure.
Q: Texas A&M being a public school, does this censorship violate the Constitution?
A: I suppose so.
Q: If the idea of a drag-show at a public university bothers you (as it does me), what’s to be done?
A: The same thing that was “to be done” before anyone came up with this stupid (and offensive!) idea: Defund / shut down all public colleges / universities. Running (or subsidizing) such schools is not a proper function of government.
I was at one time a supporter of FIRE but you've put me off them for good.
Not just a drag show, but by students. Not on my hard-earned tuition payments. Watch, schools will start pulling it students by actually stating ahead of time that such monstrosities will not be tolerated --- and cash-strapped parents like me will cheer and send our children to actually learn something.
They're representing the NRA, they just wrote an Amicus brief.
Here's an NYT article about the ACLU's internal crisis, including about how they recently revised their guidelines to discourage taking on clients whose speech they disagree with.
No, but 7yo "trans kids" are.
Oh, and while MJ is being legalized they are working to outlaw cigarettes.
And don't forget the kiddie abortions!
So Uncle Miltie and Barry Dame Edna were advocating for trans people? As you’re so fond of saying about other commentators, “what a tool”.
Kiddie abortions? Yes democrats want to legalize the ability of children to get abortions.
Yes, young kids can be trans and if a child gets pregnant why the fuck would you NOT get them to an abortion clinic?
You do know that children as young as 14 (13?) can get pregnant?
Yes. As young as 10. And republicans have banned them from getting abortions in some states even though they can create severe risks to their life and longterm physical health. This in addition to the short-medium term physical trauma the psychological trauma.
Democrats don’t want to force children to give birth.
...force children to give birth
Uh, that is the natural end to most pregnancies.
What you want to do is kill the child.
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6322165753112
Yes. Medical and ethical expert Chris rock. Good cute.
And no the end result of pregnancy doesn’t have to be birth if it’s terminated. But if you make it illegal to terminate a pregnancy you force the mother to give birth. Even if she is ten.
Do you have any idea what carrying a pregnancy to term would do to a ten year old physically and emotionally? Do you even care?
What would you say to a ten year old rape victim? “Sorry you were raped but you still have to destroy your body and psyche and never get to have a normal life because of my ideology. Oh and btw I’m not going to be responsible for your kid either that’s on you, get a job.”
Would you say that to your daughter? Your niece? Your friend’s children? Could you look in the mirror and say those words out loud even to yourself?
Actually I dare you: go say that in front of a group of women and their daughters. Say that if they’re raped they should give birth. Go into excruciating anatomical detail about how that’s still okay. See how that goes for you.
Do you know what knowing that she murdered her child will do to her?
Do you even care?
I know damn well you don't care about the murder victim.
Your response to one violation is to commit another -- evil.
If she’s traumatised by any of it do you know who is responsible? Her fucking rapist, you fool. Forcing a child to carry her rapist's child and give birth IS evil.
A glib response from a glib person. You have nothing substantive to say to what I asked because you can’t face the reality. You obviously are not emotionally mature enough to have this conversation because you can’t engage with the physical details of the trauma you are okay with inflicting.
Telling the rape victim it would be murder to save her own life, health, and psyche by not terminating the pregnancy she didn’t ask for is frankly monstrous and sociopathic. It’s Emotional (and now legal) blackmail in service of abusing a child.
So so gross.
Why would the NRA need help from the ACLU, don't they have all that Russian money? Or was it all defrauded?
I think you mean they're not representing the NRA?
The ACLU historically has not, except for some local chapters, defended civil liberties that it disapproves of. (And I think I've heard that they finally brought the last of the local chapters willing to defend the 2nd amendment into line?) They do, historically, defend civil liberties they approve of, even where exercised by groups they dislike.
What changed is that, formerly, they didn't take into account whether they disliked the group at all. Now it's a thumb on the scale, and groups they dislike have to have much more important civil liberties cases to get help than groups they like need.
Mind, I expect that in time that thumb on the scale will stop being a tie breaker and become an absolute rule.
Before or after you found and executed the rapist?
LTG/Nige: Murder is not the appropriate response to trauma. Executing an innocent child is answering a crime with yet another crime.
That you cannot understand this just shows your inhumanity.
There is no such thing as trans anything. What we have is either a mental illness (gender dysphoria) or child abuse (we're seeing a lot of Munchausen by proxy) mentally ill women abusing children.
Nige, your sickness screams like a billboard
With no reference whatsoever to when or whether the rapist was apprehended. The victim's physical health and well-being are not conditional on the outcome of any investigation of her rapist.
Forcing a child to give birth is not an appropriate response to trauma, telling a young rape victim who had an abortion that she's a murderer is inflicting trauma, an act of quite exceptional vicousness.
It's a medically recognised condition with a well-understood treatment that has an overwhelmingly high satisfaction rating.
Yes, and Nige consistently denies a fact you can find easily
IN all 50 states a coerced abortion is a felony
There is no such thing as "forcing" a female to give birth -- barring complications it is the natural result of pregnancy.
Most women know they are ending the life of a child, no matter what lies they tell themselves -- this is basic biology. Millions of women who regret their abortions or who feel at least conflicted and remorseful disagree with you.
Slaveowners surely had a "overwhelmingly high satisfaction rating" with the Peculiar Institution -- but then again they weren't the ones having their rights violated.
"overwhelmingly high satisfaction rating"
Not among the victims!
another piece of hate from Mr hypocrite.
CHOICES4LIFE.ORG <======= Pro-life children of rape, protesting the lack of help given by feminists
Nige, have you ever in your life --- even in a minimal way --- helped a woman who did NOT want the abortion. You will 'help" to take a life becauase that is how you are...all hate and self-righteousness and outrage
Of course there is. If the option of abortion is not available, births are forced.
Most women do not think that.
Slaveowners never shut up whining about the expense of keeping slaves and getting them to work. Slaveowning is not a medically recognised condition. The treatment for slaveowning was a non-medical intervention.
DWB - understanding actual biology - or any science for that matter, is difficult for most progressives.
I understand transitioning is a medically recognised procedure.
Ask Jazz how that is working out.
Murder is not a medical procedure
We all know the real victims are people who hate trans people so, yeah, their satisfaction rating is low unless laws are being passed to oppress trans people.
Sure, the context was that men aren't women.
Blazing Saddles is probably the best anti-racism film ever and it could never be made today.
And just what was the context of Berle and Humphries in drag?
Enlighten us.
You can deflect all you want.
Wonder Woman is only a comic book character.
You should read about her creator though. Dude had some issues.
The movie made extensive use of the anti-black racial expletive to hold up the racist whites of the (inbred?) townfolk to ridicule.
That in and of itself would cause a major meltdown.
Let me check...
"Sorry, there are no terms exactly matching pg-13 in the slang dictionary....There are no terms that are close matches to pg-13 in the slang dictionary."
http://onlineslangdictionary.com/search/?q=pg-13&sa=Search
No, I haven't but I do know the director is taking flack for his use of the same word and it's becoming difficult to put his vision on the screen.
I believe he's thinking of retiring?
In addition, what I've read about the film, I believe it really cannot be compared to the effect Brooks got with his comedy. Open ridicule of bigots is a handy weapon against stupid ideas -- part of the reason that the left all the sudden likes censoship.
Mel Brooks' response to the many people who tell him that the movie couldn't be made now: ""Are you kidding? We couldn't make it then!"
Sixty years of Bugs Bunny dressing as women couldn't be made today without triggering conservatives.
Ms. Doubtfire couldn't be made today without triggering conservatives.
A huge chunk of Monty Python's work couldn't be made today without triggering conservatives.
Traditional stage productions of Peter Pan couldn't be made today without triggering conservatives.
Do I need to continue?
These definitions aren't in quite the same context as used in the legal brief.
The second definition does have a family resemblance, however, I'll grant that much. Maybe the court is more hip and with-it than I am and will get the reference.
Good one.
Mel Brooks has always been known for his sensitivity and inoffensiveness, I can't believe he went against his usual pattern in Blazing Saddles.
/sarc
Considering the absolute GARBAGE dump that was HOOW II, I suspect he's being disingenuous.
I just know what I read, but considering the rewriting of so many classic books, I believe it.
The world was very different 4 years ago.
You get mad for silly reasons.
You make the mistake of thinking my calling out your racism and sexism makes me "mad" -- it's pure pleasure.
Do you still refuse to condemn all racism and sexism? I know I do -- how about you?
Calling something garbage means he's mad? Do you have issues interpreting emotions in real life, or just online?
Are you claiming that Berle and Dame Edna were groomers?
Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon in "Some Like it Hot?"
I myself consider Brooks to be the funniest man alive.
And Blazing Saddles is the funniest movie ever made.
"I'm paying you guys to lay track, not prance around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots."
"One false move and the nigger gets it."
"Somebody's gotta go back and get a whole shitload of dimes."
"It's twue, it's twue."
"They're the salt of the earth, the common clay of the new west. You know, morons."
etc.
Who knows how far down the rabbit hole they’ll go before they stop their foolishness?
I think Bostock also stands for the "but-for" standard: but-for being a biomarker man, Stephens would not have been fired for dressing like a woman. So perhaps it is sex discrimination to not permit a drag show while permitting biomarker women to put on a show in women's clothing.
On the other hand, I don't think the logic so easily extends to wearing blackface because blacks don't wear blackface.
"Bipartisan" at least suggests that there are only two parties which matter.
Ah, you've never looked in the black area of the cosmetics aisle, I take it. Women tend to wear makeup to match their underlying skin tone, so, yeah, black women wear some pretty dark makeup. Especially if they contract vitiligo, in which case it IS essentially blackface.
You're super pissed about History of the World Part 2.
Calm down; touch grass.
Sooooooo that's a no. ????
OK, racist.
Oh jeez oh man.
Oh jeez oh man.
I'm not sure I can go on after such a serious charge from such a serious poster.
Wearing some makeup isn't blackface.
Perhaps under the but-for standard, only in the very rare cases of whites with vitiligo is there discrimination when they aren't allowed to wear blackface. On the other hand, perhaps not since the makeup is designed to restore natural skin tone, not to make one black.
This has been explained multiple times: those were for comedy purposes, not grooming purposes. People still get a laugh from that sort of stuff, but now they get in trouble for laughing about it by lefty scolds.
Well, at least you apparently believe that blackface is bad. That's something.
Have you heard the stories of how Cleavon Little and Richard Pryor had to repeatedly reassure Slim Pickens that it was okay to say the horribly racist lines he was supposed to say? He was very unhappy and really didn't want to use the n word at all.