The Volokh Conspiracy
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What Exactly Is "Manslaughter" in the Alec Baldwin Case?
Though "involuntary manslaughter" is defined by New Mexico statute to includes death caused by lack of "due caution," New Mexico precedent limits it to situations where the defendant had "subjective knowledge 'of the danger or risk to others posed by his or her actions.'"
Alec Baldwin is expected to be charged for involuntary manslaughter for the death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins:
Baldwin has long maintained his innocence, saying in televised interviews that gun safety wasn't his responsibility and that he did not pull the trigger.
Reports prepared by FBI analysts in Virginia, however, cast doubt on that claim, saying a replica of a vintage Pietta Colt .45, "functioned normally when tested in the laboratory."
The FBI report also noted that, in order for the revolver to fire, the trigger would have been pulled.
What's all this manslaughter business, you might ask? Let's start with the New Mexico manslaughter statute (though, as we'll see, we won't end with that):
Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice.
A. Voluntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion.
Whoever commits voluntary manslaughter is guilty of a third degree felony resulting in the death of a human being.
So voluntary manslaughter is (to oversimplify slightly) when you mean to kill someone, and you don't have a defense such as self-defense, but the law treats the killing as a lesser crime than murder because there was some "sufficient provocation":
"All that is required (to make of the killing manslaughter) is sufficient provocation to excite in the mind of the defendant such emotions as either anger, rage, sudden resentment, or terror as may be sufficient to obscure the reason of an ordinary man, and to prevent deliberation and premeditation, and to exclude malice, and to render the defendant incapable of cool reflection."
This might include, among other things, killing someone who had just attacked you but in circumstances that don't amount to self-defense (e.g., if the attack is over and the person is leaving), or killing someone who you just learned had earlier raped a family member.
B. Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.
Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony.
Involuntary manslaughter is thus very different from the voluntary; the similarities are just that it's a homicide but not murder. One branch of it ("manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony") is the so-called "manslaughter-misdemeanor" rule, an analog to the "felony-murder" rule. The second branch involves, basically, causing death through negligence.
But not just any old negligence, of the sort that we're familiar with from civil cases. Rather, it has to be "criminal negligence," which is defined in New Mexico as "willful disregard of the rights or safety of others"—what some other states might call "recklessness":
In New Mexico, "the State must show at least criminal negligence to convict a criminal defendant of involuntary manslaughter." Because involuntary manslaughter is an unintentional killing, we only attach felony liability where the actor has behaved with the requisite mens rea. This Court has made clear that the criminal negligence standard applies to all three categories of involuntary manslaughter. Criminal negligence exists where the defendant "act[s] with willful disregard of the rights or safety of others and in a manner which endanger[s] any person or property." We also require that the defendant must possess subjective knowledge "of the danger or risk to others posed by his or her actions." [Emphasis added.]
Say, then, that the prosecution can show that Baldwin pointed the gun at Hutchins and pulled the trigger, but carelessly believed (without checking this for himself) that it was unloaded.
It wouldn't be enough to show that Baldwin was careless, negligent, or lacked due caution in the ordinary sense of the word. The prosecution would have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he was subjectively aware of the danger: that he actually thought about the possibility that the gun might be loaded, and proceeded to point it and pull the trigger despite that. That's much harder than just to show carelessness, or even gross carelessness, though of course much depends on what evidence the prosecution has gathered.
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Sadly, there is no such thing as "Felony Stupid".
That concept would get the entire legislature arrested every time they got together.
I wish.
1Ls or students entering law school in the fall: pay attention to this case, a big chunk of your crim law professors will use this fact pattern and statute (or modified versions of them) as an exam hypo!
This is excellent advice!
If a sportsman true you’d be Listen carefully to me…
Never, never let your gun
Pointed be at anyone.
That it may unloaded be
Matters not the least to me.
When a hedge or fence you cross
Though of time it cause a loss
From your gun the cartridge take
For the greater safety’s sake.
Stops and beaters oft unseen
Lurk behind some leafy screen.
Calm and steady always be
Never shoot where you can’t see.
You may kill or you may miss
But at all times remember this:
All the pheasants ever bred
Won’t repay for one man dead.
–Mark Hanbury Beaufoy
With how California is I’d be surprised if he sees much jailtime and being a prominent actor nearing the end of his career with the resources and connections to do what he wants anyway the job angle isn’t much of a concern. So the only thing being punished in his case is his ego.
New Mexico is charging.
The site where they were filming and the shooting happened is in New Mexico, not California. New Mexico has jurisdiction for the criminal case.
Perhaps Mr. Baldwin should have spent more time taking training from NRA certified instructors instead of spending that time spouting off about how horrible the NRA is.
If convicted of this felony I assume when shooting (no pun intended) a scene in the future he couldn't have a functional firearm (as this one was - even if unloaded) in his hand or otherwise under his control.
Would such a firearm, even if unloaded, being within his arms' reach during a scene cross over the line?
This probably is not a big constraint though. The film could probably use a stand in, reframe the shot (again, no pun intended), or use a fake firearm and employ CGI to add the flash and bang.
If the director is insistent on being "period and situation correct" it could require making a custom fake gun but that probably wouldn't break the budget of any film that Baldwin would be in. Of course if the desired firearm isn't in short supply and/or horribly expensive, a bit of work in a machine shop on a real version should render it inoperable and acceptable for Baldwin to use.
A real gun can be loaded with dummy cartridges. These have real bullets and cartridge cases, but no primer or powder. They look real if pointed at the camera and a quick peek through the loading gate and cylinder spin can confirm inert ammo.
Failure to employ dummy cartridges was negligent. Likewise, failure to check the status of the pistol in your hand is negligent as well.
Ineligible actors is a pretty common issue on sets; actor Mark Wahlberg is occasionally mentioned in this connection.
If someone hands you a firearm and you don't know how to operate it, refuse it.
If someone hands you a firearm and says it's "safe," check yourself.
If you don't know how to check for yourself, don't accept the firearm in the first place and demand instead that they prove it's unchambered and unloaded.
I don't care how many people have said the gun was clear or not. If you pull the trigger and someone is hurt, YOU are responsible.
Baldwin claims he was 'blindsided' by the charges; I cannot envision why. He violated at least two of the three fundamental rules of gun safety.
I do feel bad for him that allegedly, he was following industry standards in accepting the word of the AD and armorer that it was safe, but at the end of the day, he took possession of a firearm and it killed someone without the cause being a malfunction.
If this practice is in fact the "industry standard," then they need to update their standards, and I would hope his punishment is less than that of the armorer.
The safety rules are different for a movie set.
Not all prop guns are real guns, and some of the not real guns can be dangerous if not handled properly.
One type of prop gun that gets used is one that used to be a real gun but has been modified so it can't fire live or blank rounds but will produce a muzzle flash using propane gas.
If an actor is handed one of those and thinking it's a real gun attempts to check if it is loaded himself, he can make it more dangerous.
Also, there are non-blank dummy rounds that have a bullet, but no gun powder. These would be used for example in a revolver where the camera will be seeing the front of the cylinder so it looks loaded.
An actor wouldn't necessarily be able to tell the difference between one of those and a genuinely live round, and certainly wouldn't be able to do so without completely unloading the weapon.
There are legitimate reasons why the official armorer(s) should be the only ones loading/unloading the guns on a movie set.
Brandon Lee was killed by the bullet from a dummy round used earlier that had lodged in the gun and was propelled by the blank fired at him from a distance.
Acquittals also in cases resulting from the deaths of Vic Morrow and two children. That seems more direct negligence to me. (But it took place in California.)
"If you don’t know how to check for yourself, don’t accept the firearm in the first place and demand instead that they prove it’s unchambered and unloaded."
That statement pretty well covers anything and everything you said.
Firing an "unchambered and unloaded" gun wouldn't be very convincing on screen, would it?
Did you enjoy John Wick?
Yeah. Not exactly the 'gotcha' question you thought you had.
'One type of prop gun that gets used is one that used to be a real gun but has been modified so it can’t fire live or blank rounds but will produce a muzzle flash using propane gas.
If an actor is handed one of those and thinking it’s a real gun attempts to check if it is loaded himself, he can make it more dangerous.'
The propane gun, risible, isn't applicable. The idea that checking a prop vs a replica would somehow render it more dangerous, equally ludicrous. I've pointed out to you before, you don't know anything about firearms. Reading about them doesn't count. Given your ignorance, I suggest not offering 'expert opinions.'
There was no chain of custody to the armorer. Because the producers and directors demanded that COVID protocols be followed which means at their direction she left a gun cabinet outside the set. As such I can't see how she is liable.
The defining evidence would be that there was a live round in the chamber. It was a lawful act that was done "without due caution and circumspection". He should have been in the habit of checking that the barrel was clear as the final safety check in the chain of custody. NO, he wasn't required to, but not doing it was a dangerous practice.
"not doing it was a dangerous practice."
And negligent.
All guns are loaded. I don't care who tells you it isn't, all guns are loaded. I don't care if you check for yourself, all guns are loaded. NEVER point one at someone else. ALL GUNS ARE LOADED.
I mean, that's great hunting safety or gun range (or walk down the street) advice, but "never point a gun at someone else" doesn't really work in the context of a movie where the script actually calls for pointing a gun at someone else.
Never heard of camera angles?
Or CGI. In over 40 years of filmmaking, no one ever got killed in a tragic lightsaber accident on set.
David, there is no difference between 'hunting safety' or 'gun range' talk. The evidence of failure to follow simple safety rules when handling dangerous equipment are quite clear. Baldwin didn't pay the price, his crew did.
Yeah, based on the videos of people demonstrating the gun, it seems pretty clear to me that Baldwin is wrong about not pulling the trigger. I don’t think he’s lying, I think his brain blocked it out due to the tragedy of the situation.
I think the charging decision is chickenshit. I won’t go so far as to say Baldwin had no responsibility, but the most clearly responsible parties were the movie’s arms person and whomever loaded the gun. Liability, criminal or otherwise, should follow the most responsible parties.
Absolutely wrong
The holder of the gun has SOLE responsibilty to ensure the safety of the gun and the opertion of the gun.
Even if the the assistant has checked and crossed check, the responsibility to ensure the safety of the gun remains with the person holding the gun.
I wonder why, if you're actually right, both Baldwin and Reed are being charged.
Have you considered that you are ignorant of Hollywood firearm safety procedures, and that you are the one who is wrong?
Jason Cavanaugh 14 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Jason comment - "Have you considered that you are ignorant of Hollywood firearm safety procedures, and that you are the one who is wrong?"
Jason - I hope you are not arguing the "hollywood firearm safety procedures " are less strict than they should be.
It’s pretty hilarious to read these comments, ’cause we’re seeing people having their fantasy wet dream. Not only are they able to trash on Alec Baldwin, but also get to piously speak Gun Talk too (a religious experience for them). But what happens when Baldwin’s defense presents evidence he followed the same weapons protocol used on movie sets around the world? What happens when the prosecution’s own witnesses have to admit the same thing as well? I’ve seen people trying to get around that inconvenient fact by claiming Baldwin is being charged as a producer. That doesn’t stand a second’s review either, because movies typically have producers in abundance, and none of this film’s are in the dock except Baldwin.
The charges are a very very bad joke, and the only question is why? There you have the cynical answer & ultra-cynical answer. The first is the prosecutors are afraid they’ll look deferential to fame and money if they don’t waste everyone’s time with this. The second answer is fame and money is the point; they want a trophy. Either way, the charges don’t hold up the the slightest scrutiny.
(you can all go back to your pious sermons on Guns now. I particularly like comments about “never pointing a gun at someone” – which is kinda awkward when that’s what the script demands…)
"But what happens when Baldwin’s defense presents evidence he followed the same weapons protocol used on movie sets around the world?"
Not what you think, because Baldwin wasn't just an actor on the set, he was the producer.
That means he was responsible for hiring the armorer and verifying her qualifications and job performance. So if the Armorer was negligent, Baldwin shares in her negligence.
So you would point a gun at some and pull the trigger without checking it?
TwelveInchPianist : "So you would point a gun at some and pull the trigger without checking it?"
1. That is done on hundreds of movie sets around the world each day.
2. Gun piety doesn't alter that fact, which will be easily produced as evidence.
3. The charges are a really bad joke.
“1. That is done on hundreds of movie sets around the world each day.”
Then how come Alec Baldwin told ABC News that he would point a gun at someone and pull the trigger? (Link below)
*never point a gun
1. My comment is factual.
2. Your point is irrelevant.
That said, Baldwin hasn’t covered himself in glory after this tragedy. I don’t know whether he’s actually convinced himself he didn’t pull the trigger or not, but who cares? Although the woman’s death wasn’t his fault, it’s to be expected it weighs down on him. Hell, a little desperate weaseling is easily understood, whatever unseemly form it takes. Better that than the woman’s death is no burden to him at all.
" I don’t know whether he’s actually convinced himself he didn’t pull the trigger or not, but who cares?"
So to be clear, you acknowledge that it's likely that Baldwin pointed the gun and pulled the trigger, and Baldwin admits that he was trained not to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, but you don't see how those two facts are relevant?
It’s kinda sweet – your cloyingly smugness over this so-called “proof”. But let’s watch it fall apart: This mess goes to trial and Baldwin is on the stand. Asked about your statement, he says this:
“Look, after the accident I was upset and said a lot of nonsense. Obviously, I did pull the trigger. And no one told me never to point a gun at another actor – that would be unheard of in the movie business. I’ve handled prop guns in many movies like (insert reference here), and have never been told that. I just wanted to convince people it was impossible I pulled the trigger. I just couldn’t stand being the instrument of Hannah’s death…”
Five points :
1. That has the advantage of probably being one-hundred percent true.
2. If Baldwin had been instructed never to point a gun at another actor, you can damn well be assured we’d heard it by now, particularly if it occurred on the set of Rust. You might wanna consider why that hasn’t happened, TIP.
3. If ANY actor on ANY movie set at ANY time had ever been told never to point a gun at another actor, we’d have heard it by now. You might wanna consider why that hasn’t happened, TIP.
4. Baldwin’s statement he didn’t pull the trigger is nonsense. Baldwin’s statement he couldn’t have because of special training that’s never existed before is nonsense. It’s hard to convict over obvious nonsense talk given every single fact makes a guilty verdict impossible. As previously noted, that’s the case here
5. One last problem for you, TIP : If there was a safety protocol that no actor point a gun at another, you can damn well be assured there’d be a paper trail on this policy that preceded the accident. Hell, if this “training” was found in ANY movie at ANY time, the same would be true. But it isn’t, is it?
Huh. Whatdaya know. It looks like Alec Baldwin is a member of the Actors Equity Association, and their saftey tips for the use of firearms says "Never point a firearm at anyone including yourself. "
Baldwin would face a pretty tough cross if he took your advice.
Also from Baldwin's union:
"Check the firearm every time you take possession of it. Before each use, make sure the gun has been test-fired off stage and then ask to test fire it yourself. Watch the prop master check the cylinders and barrel to be sure no foreign object or dummy bullet has become lodged inside."
Equity's "safety tips" are kind of mushy.
First, I'm not sure "safety tips" should be interpreted as binding rules. I mean, I'd say it's a "safety tip" to promptly do whatever a police officer says, but obviously that's not a rule. It's a "safety tip" to
Second, the "never point" tip rule is self-eviscerating: "Never point a firearm at anyone including yourself. Always cheat the shot by aiming to the right or left of the target character. If asked to point and shoot directly at a living target, consult with the property master or armorer for the prescribed safety procedures." So I think this is saying that if the actor is controlling the scene, the actor should "cheat the shot." Like that should be the actor's preference. But if the director says to point directly at the target, the actor doesn't refuse but instead talks to the armorer. So then what if the armorer says, "Relax, it's safe, you're good, it's loaded with blanks"?
Well, that's not Baldwin's claim. Baldwin's claim is that he was trained never to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, and that he didn't do so. Grb claims that Baldwin can easily back out of that claim because he can show that rules like that are unheard of in the acting industry. But as I've shown, rules against pointing guns at others are the norm. As are rules allowing actors to check the weapons themselves.
Quick question for you, GRB:
Who was shot? Do you even know?
"This mess goes to trial and Baldwin is on the stand. Asked about your statement, he says this:
“Look, after the accident I was upset and said a lot of nonsense."
Lol. Yeah, that always works.
"And no one told me never to point a gun at another actor – that would be unheard of in the movie business."
I dunno. I suspect a few people have heard of the CSATF's Firearm Saftey Bulletin, which says "Refrain from pointing a firearm at anyone, including yourself."
It also says, "No one shall be issued a firearm until he or she is trained in safe handling, safe use, the safety lock, and proper firing procedures." which means that Baldwin should have been able to check the firearm himself.
And according to this expert, "Every single person on set – cast or crew – has the right to inspect a prop gun."
So it seems your info about what is supposed to happen on movie sets is a little off.
Never point a gun at someone unless you have checked it yourself. This bloviating is applicable on movie sets and everywhere else.
Aaaaaaand grb vanishes in a puff of smoke.
He'll be back when ShareBlue replenishes the retainer.
'That is done on hundreds of movie sets around the world each day.'
No, it is not. Produce the evidence.
Some types of prop guns would be made more dangerous, not less by an actor trying to check it themselves.
I’m happy to agree with you for a change. I imagine the standard gun protocol on movie sets relies on the weapon be checked and prepared by the film’s armorer expert as the absolute last step, as opposed to some witless movie star mucking-up the expert’s prep with his/her last minute “safety check”. I imagine that preference isn’t a close call in film productions. I’m sure plenty of people will testify to just that fact.
If you really want a hardcore weapons protocol, try the firing range in Basic Training. I remember us being mechanically led thru step after step, both entering and leaving the range.
Unfortunately for Baldwin, he told news outlets the opposite, that he was trained not to pull the trigger, and he claims that he didn't pull the trigger.
See, here’s your problem: Baldwin is factually not at fault. That is indisputable. It isn’t even a close call. There was a safety protocol on the set and Baldwin made zero mistakes in that protocol’s failure. Actors are not asked to make “last minute safety checks”, despite all the inane bloviating we see in comments above and below.
And actors do point guns at people. They do pull the trigger. Netflix has thousands of movies to aid your research, if research is needed on this point. Trust me, it’s not all CGI.
So what’s the point of your Baldwin quote? It won’t change the facts at the trial. And the facts make this charge a farce.
"See, here’s your problem: Baldwin is factually not at fault. That is indisputable. It isn’t even a close call. There was a safety protocol on the set and Baldwin made zero mistakes in that protocol’s failure."
Sigh. Here's your problem: Baldwin admitted that part of the safety protocol was not to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, and the evidence shows that Baldwin likely did exactly that.
Furthermore, as producer Baldwin was the authority for establishing the safety protocol on the set. He was either negligent in establishing the safety protocol or following the protocol or both.
It's hilarious that you believe you have anything useful to say on the matter.
"But what happens when Baldwin’s defense presents evidence he followed the same weapons protocol used on movie sets around the world?"
This question is why you should have kept your mouth closed. "I followed the rules of my employer" is not a valid defense to a crime.
You are an idiot, and a partisan one at that.
Not a fantasy wet dream or a religious experience. Just simple facts. If Hollywood does it different all the time then they need to change the way they do it. As someone who values safety above all else when handling guns the person holding the gun is responsible for safety, IMO.
Maybe as some have stated it is unsafe for the actor to check for themselves with certain prop guns. Fine. The person on the set in charge of guns and safety should check for themselves and then demonstrate each time they hand the gun to anyone else that it is safe.
I'm not a lawyer so I really don't know if Baldwin is criminally liable. The trial will determine that. It his his responsibility though. And it is also the responsibility of whoever loaded the gun and whoever was supposed to make sure it was safe.
Baldwin can't present that defense, because at his direction as a producer COVID protocols he approved were followed on set, which demanded that the armorer leave the gun in a cabinet outside the set. Industry standard protocol is for the armorer to have possession of the weapons until they are handed to the actor.
I think you're missing the fact that Baldwin was both the shooter and the producer of the movie. So if gun safety procedures were not being followed on set, that ultimately falls on him as the guy in charge, independently of whether he relied on the armorer's representations to him.
Please be specific. I’m not a lawyer (shoutout to architects everywhere), but recognize the CEO of a corporation with thousands of employees is theoretically liable for someone’s careless action on the factory floor. I did not miss that fact. (After all, lawyers have to make a living too) However, here’s other facts I didn’t miss too – some of which you may find helpful.
1. Actors often get producer credits, but usually with minimal or no involvement in production details. The odds are very, very very high that’s the case here.
2. That means there was a dogsbody producer who did hire the film technicians, run the daily working of the set, and manage the film’s safety protocols. Strangely enuff, that person hasn’t been charged. Besides Baldwin, there was Kc Brandenstein (producer), Matt DelPiano (producer), Tyler Gould (producer), Matthew Helderman (executive producer), Nathan Klingher (producer), Anjul Nigam (producer), Gabrielle Pickle (line producer). Ryan Donnell Smith (producer), Luke Tyler (executive producer), and Ryan Winterstein (producer).
Given your impeccable reasoning (how could I have missed that!), we can only wonder why none of these others were charged.
Because this statement of yours was bullshit:
"The odds are very, very very high that’s the case here."
It follows then, that your second "point" was even dumber, since it was based on your imaginary math skills.
No it wasn’t. You’re a fool if you believe movie stars getting producer credit are interviewing armorers and running set details. You’re a fool if you think that was the case here. I’m not the one spouting bullshit, you are.
Not to pick on Ms. Pickle, but here's the definition of a "Line Producer" :
A line producer is a type of film producer who is the head of the production office management personnel during daily operations of a feature film. A line producer is responsible for human resources and handling any problems that come up during production.
Whatya wanna bet Ms. Pickle had much, much, much more to do with hiring the films armorer than movie star Alec Baldwin?
Care to make any other brainless statements, Jason?
It is unlikely that Baldwin didn't sign off on the COVID protocols the set was using, which means he knew or should have known that the chain of custody to the armorer was broken.
Who was that stretchy-guy in the Marvel comic books? Don't take this wrong, but that's who you remind me of reaching for that point. That said, your ingenious reasoning also applies to every other producer on the list above, as well as a myriad of other people associated with the film.
As I said somewhere else in this lengthening thread, there are only two reasons why such ludicrous charges were filled against the actor : Either the prosecutor wanted to show she didn't defer to celebrity and wealth, or else she wants a trophy of celebrity and wealth. Pointing out factors that apply to dozens of other people just makes that plainer.
Why are you focusing on who hired the armorer rather than who supervised her?
Are you claiming Baldwin exclusively supervised the armorer out of all that long list of producers ?!? If you are, please say so because that would be quite the spectacle. If you're not, we're back where we started, with you created a spurious reason for Baldwin to face charges. This is particularly true given it's 99.9999% likely that Alec Baldwin was not the person in charge of supervising the technical staff on the set.
Of course there's still one out open to you, if you wanna go there: You can say that (obviously) Baldwin pulled the trigger of a gun handed to him by the set expert and supposedly checked & safe, so charges aren't warranted there. And (obviously) Baldwin was one of a small herd of producers - and the one most pro-forma to boot - so charges aren't warranted there. But you combine those two facts together and they're like the inert compounds of a binary bomb. KAPOW! Legal culpability ensues. That argument is still open, tho it would be quite the spectacle too.
As an outsider, I find legal reasoning fascinating....
I am not in the movie business, but I don't think the odds are high that that’s the case here. This isn't like stroking Tom Cruise's ego by calling him a producer on Top Gun: Maverick, when it was actually a Bruckheimer production with a several hundred million dollar production budget that Cruise couldn't possibly have been overseeing. This is a small film that Baldwin co-wrote and that was his baby from the beginning.
Your argument is full of question-begging. "Given that he didn't have an important role as producer, why was he charged when these other producers weren't?" Maybe, um, because your premise is wrong and he had a more important role than they did?
Also, I mean, none of them shot the victim.
1. Even a small film has a technical staff of dozens of people and the odds that Alec Baldwin was in charge of supervising them is microscopic. You’re just blowing smoke when you claim otherwise.
2. You say Baldwin should be charged because he’s a producer. You claim the other nine producers shouldn’t be charged because ………....... (voice trailing off). And I’m begging the question ????
3. Of course Cruise was a producer of TGM. But that “several hundred million dollar” movie only had sixteen producers while your “small film” Rust had ten. Surely Baldwin wasn’t the only one working?
4. I addressed your jokey “none of them shot the victim” point above.
I really dislike Alec Baldwin but this seems harsh to me.
Unless maybe there’s some part of their safety protocol that flagrantly violated.
Bevis
see my comment above - the holder of the gun has sole and absolute responsibility for the safe operation of the gun. Mutliple rules of basic gun safety were violated.
"Unless maybe there’s some part of their safety protocol that flagrantly violated."
Yes there was. There shouldn't have been any live rounds anywhere near the set. Having live rounds on the set (even if not loaded in a prop gun) would be a violation of safety protocol.
Baldwin's claim that "gun safety wasn't his responsibility" is as absurd as his claim that he didn't pull the trigger.
While he might not have been directly responsible for gun safety, as the producer, he was responsible for hiring the armorer (the person who was directly responsible for gun safety), for verifying her credentials and qualifications, and for supervising her and making sure she was doing her job properly.
MatthewSlyfield : “While he might not have been directly responsible for gun safety, as the producer, he was responsible for hiring the armorer..”
Assumes facts not in evidence. Assumes facts almost certain to be proven no fact at all. Movies have several grades of producer. The movie-star-kind are not involved in “hiring the armorer” or “verifying her credentials”. Did you really think overwise? Please also note whatever work-a-day producer did run this set (and did hire the armorer) has not been charged. Of course what would be the headlines in that? Where would be the glory?
" whatever work-a-day producer "
So you can identify who this work-a-day producer is/was for Rust?
Also, if someone else was responsible for hiring the armorer, why hasn't Baldwin already thrown that person under the bus? He was more than willing to throw the armorer under the bus.
MatthewSlyfield : “So you can identify who this work-a-day producer is/was for Rust?”
Probably with an effort, sure…. But given the odds that Baldwin was the one hiring set technicians is .000001%, shouldn’t you be the one trying to prove your case?
MatthewSlyfield : “why hasn’t Baldwin already thrown that person under the bus? He was more than willing to throw the armorer under the bus”
Why should he? I doubt 1 person out of 10,000 is clueless enough to believe Alec Baldwin was the person hiring set technicians. Every major star wants producer credits on every other movie. Do you honestly believe they’re all reviewing the resume applications for key grip?!?
Of course you hate on Alec Baldwin, which brings up a personal story: I used to do a long beach weekend with old buddies who are all zombie-undead dittohead Rightists. One day we were watching a flick and these guys were on and on (and on) in full flaming hate-mode about one of the actors, who was a well-known lefty. I watched bemused a long while, then finally asked why….
Do you think, (I asked them) that I give a rat’s ass about the politics of conservative actors? Why (I asked them) would I bother? I brought up the example of Charlton Heston - who made a damn fine Mexican in Touch of Evil…..
“Probably with an effort, sure…. But given the odds that Baldwin was the one hiring set technicians is .000001%”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_(upcoming_film)
Rust was being produced on a $6–7 million budget and has been described as a “passion project” for Baldwin.
Seems likely that Baldwin was funding the project out of his own pocket and your calculation of the odds that he was doing the hiring are way off.
That you honestly think that helps your case is even more funnier still!
To reiterate what I said above: I have no idea why you're focusing on hiring the armorer. Nobody is claiming that hiring her rises to the level of criminal negligence. The issue is whether the gun safety policies on the set were reckless, and/or whether the armorer was properly applying those policies.
Rather than focus on gun safety and whether one likes Alec Baldwin or not, I prefer to look at this case through the lens of mens rea.
My opinion: I do not think negligence or criminal negligence is a sufficient justification for making someone guilty of a crime. I have probably said it before on these pages but I would abolish all criminal laws which only require negligence as the mens rea. I believe instead all such matters should be left to civil adjudication.
Criminal negligence — as Prof. Volokh mentions above — is not mere negligence; it's more akin to recklessness.
To say that recklessness should never be the basis of criminal punishment sounds like someone who should study Chesterton's Fence.
There is a definite distinction between reckless and negligent mens rea. These ideas cannot be conflated any more than knowing and intentional can be confused with reckless or negligent.
I agree with you that reckless would provide sufficient mens rea for criminal charges to attach. However, the charge of involuntary manslaughter in NM does not specify if it is the reckless or negligent killing of another. Some states make the distinction in the law.
I would concur that baldwin did not intent to kill and the would enhance the mens rae concept - however, since ever safety rule in the book was violated, and the holder of the gun has sole responsibility to ensure the safety of the firearm, it was gross negligence on baldwin's part to not properly check the gun even after the "amrory supposedly checked the gun.
Further, it was known by several others on the production set, that the gun was being fired with live rounds approximately 1-2 hours prior to the killing. That should have heighted the level of safety cross checks.
I have heard of an armorer who shut down filming, with all the economic impact, when live ammunition showed up on a set. Costs racked up until the entire area had been searched for more live ammo.
I wish the category of "criminal negligence" could be abolished. Its mere existence makes people think we actually mean (civil) negligence. If the requisite mens rea is recklessness then let's actually call it that and stop pretending.
If nothing else, this would save a lot of time when things like this happen and people start talking about "negligent homicide."
--It's a crime to kill someone negligently!
--Is that really fair? I mean I guess in some cases . . . .
--Yeah, it's totally fair because you should be more careful and not kill somebody.
--Wait a minute guys, that's not really negligence, it's criminal negligence which is a higher standard.
--So is it a crime to kill somebody by accident or not?
Etc.
"It wouldn't be enough to show that Baldwin was careless, negligent, or lacked due caution in the ordinary sense of the word. The prosecution would have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he was subjectively aware of the danger: that he actually thought about the possibility that the gun might be loaded, and proceeded to point it and pull the trigger despite that."
"I would never point a gun at someone and pull the trigger on them, never."
--Alec Baldwin
Anyone notice that the caselaw definition is sloppy. It says that the person must have wilfully disregarded the risk and also must have subjectively been aware of the risk. How can someone not be subjectively aware of a risk if they are wilfully direregarding it?
Not really, it works the same way as negligence, in that one of the elements (breach) is dependent on the existence of another one (duty). You can't breach a duty you don't have, but you still have to prove both of those elements (and two more, causation and damages).
This story – the unintentional shooting with a gun which was the shooter thought was only a stage-prop loaded with blanks – was the plot of two Perry Mason episodes: “The Case of the Final Fade-Out” and “The Case of the Shooting Star”. “The Case of the Final Fade-Out” featured Erle Stanley Gardner himself in the role of a judge presiding over a trial. And it included an hilarious exchange between Perry Mason and an aging diva accused of murderously putting real ammo into the gun: the actress, with a theatrical gesture, says “It’s hopeless – hopeless! They’ll send me to the chair!” and Perry Mason gravely replies: “That’s a line from a period-play, Miss Glover. In California we have the gas-chamber now.”
On this standard it's hard to see how someone who takes the 5th could be aquitted. Even if they've explicitly expressed concern about the degree of gun safety on set presumably the point at which the risk is unacceptably large for the whole production of a shooting is far far far smaller than the point at which you have subjective knowledge this one gun has an unduly high risk of being loaded
I mean, if I pull a gun at random from a pile of million guns only knew if which is loaded and point it at someone and pull the trigger (assume there is a reason for doing it) I've exposed them to less risk of death than if I drove them a few miles to the store. Yet if I had a million ppl each do that the risk gets pretty close to 1.
I see lots of comments
Sorry it should say only ONE of which is loaded.
Also, for all the ppl saying that you should always check a gun, never leave it unattended and assume it hasn't been modified etc.. Those are all good best practices. However, the law doesn't impose special duties regarding risks from guns than say risks from cars.
I don't see how the fact that a gun was involved should make this any different than if the production had involved some modified cars without breaks (or w/ inferior brakes for some stunt) and Baldwin had accidentally run someone over because the cars got switched. Risk is risk.
It's a good rule to treat guns with the kind of special safety checks that good gun owners follow because the costs are low compared to the benefits in usual situations but that doesn't seem like it should be legally relevant.
Industry protocol is for the gun never to be unattended and the armorer to have control of any weapons at all times until handed to the actor. COVID protocols on set broke the industry gun protocols, and guns were left in a wheeled cabinet next to the set, which at some undetermined time later were wheeled onto the set and then used during the currently filmed scenes
If the killing happened in a scene where an actor was pointing it at another actor and pulled the trigger, reasonably believing it was not loaded, I wouldn't expect charges.
What the hell was Baldwin doing pointing a gun at a crew member? These charges are appropriate.
Supposedly, he was in the process of filming a scene which required drawing the weapon and pointing it toward the camera. The trigger pull is super sus though.
"What the hell was Baldwin doing pointing a gun at a crew member? These charges are appropriate."
If you don't know the basic facts of the situation, you have no business forming a conclusion on whether the charges are appropriate.
Did Baldwin violate a standard protocol? If yes, he's responsible; if not, then the protocol was flawed, so whoever designed it is responsible.
According to a pseudonymous guy online claiming to be in the business of movie fights, who I found credible, actors are never supposed to point a real gun at anybody. The camera angle can make it look like the gun is pointed at somebody, or the gun can be a fake. I have seen no claims about how much of this Baldwin knew at the time.
In my state juries will convict in cases where I think culpability is comparable to the Rust set. Owner of a construction company supervised workers in a trench that violated OSHA rules. Workers were trapped and drowned when the trench caved in. Guilty of manslaughter. Building manager rented out an apartment that he knew violated fire safety regulations by having only one exit. Renter died in a fire. Guilty of manslaugher.
>carelessly believed (without checking this for himself) that it was unloaded.
Suppose he argues that Hollywood gun handling rules, in wild departure from the rules elsewhere, forbid the talent to do anything with the gun except to carry out the script and require him to take the armorer's word that it's unloaded.
Isn't there a remaining argument for negligence? Who hired that armorer, for example? Who continued filming after the crew walked out over safety issues? Do those issues rise to, or fall short of, New Mexico's standard?
Recalling the Russian Roulette scenes in "The Deer Hunter," I'm wondering if Christopher Walken checked the pistols before pressing them to his head and pulling the trigger.
Rest assured...yes.
There are some interesting facts about Hollywood safety rules in a paywalled article at https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/20/arts/alec-baldwin-gun-safety-film.html.
Interesting takeaways:
1. Procedures vary.
2. There is increasing advocacy of banning real guns from sets and using special effects for shootouts. It doesn't mention how to simulate recoil.
3. The one that I thought made a lot of sense: there are productions where, instead of handing the talent a gun and saying "cold", the armorer opens the action in front of the actors and shows them the weapon's condition. This wouldn't help if a production needed dummy rounds.
4. Alec Baldwin has an argument for why he pointed the gun at the cinematographer.
5, Actors are generally missing basic gun handling skills.
"It doesn’t mention how to simulate recoil."
There are non-firing guns that use 'green gas' to cycle a weight to make the gun recoil. Fist example from a search
"This wouldn’t help if a production needed dummy rounds."
When I make dummy rounds (to use for gunsmithing, to check function) I either mill a 3/16 or so hole transversely through the case, and/or fill the primer hole with bright colored RTV (which also makes them work as snap caps). I'd think one of the other of those would result in a cartridge that was both easy for the actor to inspect, and also not obvious with the right camera angle. And if not, I wonder a bit about a script that absolutely requires some process that can't be made safe - why not tweak the script?
(I should confess my bias - I wish Hollywood would have a lot less gunfights in movies. I think that, say, 'High Noon' offers a healthier attitude towards violence than e.g. the John Wick movies.)