The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
David Lat on Hogan Lovells' Firing of Semi-Retired Equity Partner for Comments on Abortion and Race
"[T]here is increasingly no place for social conservatives in many large law firms."
An excellent column, as usual ("Biglaw's Latest Cancel-Culture Controversy"), which starts with Robin Keller's Tuesday Wall Street Journal op-ed on the incident, but adds a good deal more.
On Tuesday, Robin Keller, until recently a retired equity partner at Hogan Lovells who was still serving clients, wrote a Wall Street Journal op-ed about how the firm fired her…. After the Court issued its Dobbs opinion in June, Hogan Lovells organized a Zoom call in early July for female employees. Keller joined the call, which mostly involved women expressing anger over Dobbs, and offered a dissenting view:
I noted that many jurists and commentators believed Roe had been wrongly decided. I said that the court was right to remand the issue to the states. I added that I thought abortion-rights advocates had brought much of the pushback against Roe on themselves by pushing for extreme policies. I referred to numerous reports of disproportionately high rates of abortion in the Black community, which some have called a form of genocide. I said I thought this was tragic.
To say these remarks did not go over well would be a massive understatement. The speaker after Keller condemned her as a racist and told her to leave the meeting, other participants said they "lost their ability to breathe" after her comments, and yet another attendee told Kathryn Rubino of Above the Law ("ATL") that she was "traumatized and hurt" by what Keller said…
After Keller's op-ed [about her having been fired based on this incident] was published, I heard from a Biglaw equity partner who's in the process of parting ways with her firm after she refused to embrace the post-Dobbs order. Because she's in the delicate process of negotiating her exit, she asked me not to name her firm or office (although they are known to me), and I did not contact the firm for comment. She does not want the firm to know she's speaking to the media, for obvious reasons (and the firm is suffering no reputational injury anyway, since I'm keeping it anonymous). [UPDATE (2:31 p.m.): As I mentioned to a Twitter skeptic, emails and other documents support this partner's account of events—although I'm obviously not going to post them here.]
Here's what happened, according to this partner. After she declined to take on pro-bono work of a pro-choice bent or to get involved in other reproductive-rights initiatives post-Dobbs—saying she was too busy, not mentioning any opposition to abortion or to Dobbs—her office managing partner asked her, "Am I correct in assuming you're pro-life?" After she didn't deny this (because she actually is pro-life), he called her racist (because of the disproportionate impact of Dobbs on minority communities), let her know she was not going to be working with his clients, and started undermining her in various ways, large and small.
It became increasingly difficult for this partner to build her practice without the support of leadership. Eventually she was told she was not a good fit for the firm, despite her large book of business. The firm initially offered a few flimsy pretexts for firing her, which it eventually abandoned after they were refuted by this partner and her counsel. Because both sides now acknowledge that she is not being terminated for cause under the partnership agreement, she is being paid a seven-figure sum to leave. Credit where credit is due: the firm is willing to put its money where its mouth is when it comes to its social-justice commitments, showing the door to a profitable partner because it sees her views as unacceptable.
Some might be skeptical of this account, but in the current day and age, I'm not surprised. In a poll yesterday, I asked: "Should telling co-workers that you support the #SCOTUS decision in Dobbs be a firing offense in Biglaw?" Most respondents said no, but 25 percent said yes. The office managing partner who fired my source because she refused to get with the post-Dobbs program simply falls into the 25 percent….
I don't know if I'm entirely there yet, but I think I'm coming around to the following view: Biglaw isn't a big tent, and it's naive, maybe even downright silly, to believe otherwise. It's fine to be economically or fiscally conservative—Biglaw defends Big Business, after all—but there is increasingly no place for social conservatives in many large law firms, as well as elite circles more generally….
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I had this silly idea that the need to perform and bill hours at biglaw would push out most of the people fragile enough to not be able to breath from hearing a wrong opinion or who just default to screaming "racist" in any disagreement, but apparently, I was very wrong.
I wonder if their clients know about the firm's views...and are now wondering if the firm will properly represent them in court?
I wouldn't worry about Hogan's clients. They're big corporations and are completely onboard the woke train.
So if I ever have a case against a Hogan Lovells attorney, all I need do is turn to her and say “Dobbs was correctly decided,” and I will win by default because she will either cease breathing or be traumatized into silence.
I like the way you think.
But, you might then get fired by your own firm...
On what libertarian or libertarian-ish theory is this a problem? And has anyone looked into the politics of dentists, car dealers, insurance companies, or fossil fuel company executives and cluthed their pearls at what they found?
Interesting selection; no woke examples come to mind?
You really do not understand what libertarianism is, do you?
Well, it was the Republican GM dealers who lost their dealerships in the Government Motors bankruptcy.
And Democratic ones didn't? Or weren't there many of them?
Michelle Bachmann made a very convincing argument at the time.
Things that are never true for $500, Alex.
As opposed to the Democratic union leaders, I think he means.
I don't think he means that at all.
I think he means that Democratic dealers were left alone, but who knows?
The guy thinks Michelle Bachmann made a convincing argument. Enough said.
I've actually met her -- have you?
And if you can get 241 members of Congress to agree with you, that says something, even if you are AOC.
See: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/rep-michele-bachmann-politics-is-in-charge-now-at-gm-chrysler
The guy thinks Michelle Bachmann made a convincing argument, even after meeting her. Enough said.
You think you've just made a convincing argument for something.
Enough said.
>On what libertarian or libertarian-ish theory is this a problem?
The firm specifically promised a "safe place" i.e., a forum in which you could express your opinions w/o fear of repercussions. This makes it a very libertarian-ish breach of contract problem.
Well, fine. If they actually promised that and didn't deliver, a breach of contract lawsuit should be filed shortly. Pass the popcorn.
It's also an extremely bad faith and ill-conceived way of running any business. So basically, management openly lies to workers and partners to entice them to say something that can be used against them. IIRC, Maoist China did something similar.
To repeat, just because libertarians believe you should be free to act stupidly does not mean you should act stupidly.
"So basically, management openly lies to workers and partners to entice them to say something that can be used against them. IIRC, Maoist China did something similar."
Similar tactics, similar people.
Or they assumed that there were zero pro-life femal employees rather than one, and didn't anticipate anyone expressing a positive reaction to the decision in the first place.
“Though liberals [he meant leftists] do a great deal of talking about hearing other points of view, it sometimes shocks them to learn that there are other points of view.”
These days, of course, they don’t do quite so much of that kind of talking…
Still true enough.
Google did something very similar to James Damore.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/fired-google-engineer-james-damore-dropped-his-lawsuit-against-company
What it cost Google in the settlement is not known to me.
But my default search engine is now duckduckgo.
“Safe space to express views” in this context obviously meant “safe space to express how horrified you are by the Dobbs decision.”
The attorney knew exactly what the forum was and that her forceful expression of an opposing view would cause a ruckus. Not that I fault her for doing it - I’d see her actions as a form of civil disobedience (albeit against a private actor), illustrating the firm’s bias and hypocrisy.
"The attorney knew exactly what the forum was and that her forceful expression of an opposing view would cause a ruckus. . . ."
I didn't read in the piece that hers was a forceful expression. She noticed that the opinions were going against Dobbs (how is a law firm so naive as to not know that many believed Roe was decided poorly) and wished to state her opinion.
Both David Lat and Prof. Volokh primarily write about lawyers, not dentists. Is that a problem?
They write primarily about LAW, which applies to both lawyers and dentists.
Yeah, there is no libertarian theory wherein you can argue that this action is sanctionable. The Magic of the Market should solve it. But then libertarians ain't that libertarian these days.
It is also definitely legal. Even if the state forcing everyone to associate with conservatives is the new right-wing push now that religious exceptions to civil rights laws has fallen by the wayside - quite a turn on a dime there!!
I think there is some conflating what is right, and what is good.
Libertarian theory is a theory about what is right. In stronger formulations, what is legitimate. Some on here try to pretend that it is a theory of what is good. That is wrong, and this examples shows why - the knots these so-called libertarians are tying themselves in to make a libertarian argument that this is wrong is quite amusing!
FWIW, I think this is wrong as Lat formulates it - i.e. based on the substance of the viewpoint.
But it is correct as a matter of corporate culture. Substance-independent, this partner failed or chose not to read the room, and lost the trust of the organization. Same would be true if she went into an all-hands and started trying to sell everyone on a Marxist revolution or something.
Does it need to be about a *libertarian* argument because its on Volokh? You can both believe in libertarian principles and, separately, think these actions were in poor taste.
I mean, I'll defend people's right to say a lot of things I disagree with, but I'll also feel free to tell them I disagree with them. Libertarianism means believing its okay for people to say and do things you find distasteful, so long as no rights are violated, not that you personally have to be on board with their beliefs or actions.
(And at least in the latter, unnamed, example, clearly a breach of contract since they're paying her seven figures).
(It's pretty muddled whether anyone is arguing that there's a "libertarian problem" here, but if they are, they're as dumb as the partnerships in question).
No - someone upthread asked for libertarian arguments, and a bunch of people picked up that challenge and fell flat on their face. Because they don't quite understand the distinction between good and right that is required when reading any political philosophy.
Libertarianism means believing its okay for people to say and do things you find distasteful, so long as no rights are violated, not that you personally have to be on board with their beliefs or actions.
No, that's tolerance. Libertarianism is about government.
Normally I'd be happy to join you in dunking on Sarcastr0 for failing to recognize that libertarians can judge and criticize a private actor without thinking their conduct should be illegal.
Unfortunately, he was savvy enough to wait until the usual soi-disant libertarians suspects lived anddown to expectations and tried to argue that this conduct was illegal.
Firing her for dissenting from the groupthink ought to be legal to the extent that it was not in breach of contract. I think that’s the libertarian view.
But libertarianism doesn’t require unilateral disarmament, so there’s that.
Also, libertarians aren’t obliged to not disfavor the firm as a result of its stinking obnoxiousness.
Your saying it WAS legal is a different claim.
And it looks like James Damore got a settlement.
Pretty sure that the libertarian position is that HL's conduct should be considered perfectly legal; and it is. But a civilized person's position is that HL's conduct should be regarded as embarrassingly disgraceful; and it is.
Nah, it may in fact not be legal. On similar facts James Damore apparently got paid off.
Nothing in libertarianism requires me to not despise and ostracize anyone who engages in despicable behavior. They get freedom of association and I get to make it as much of as "problem" for them as I can.
The pendulum always swings both ways, and everyone pushing it one way assumes it can never swing back.
Anti-papists began the anti-abortion push in the 1800s to defeat Irish and Italian and other Catholic immigration. They reached peak power with Comstock and post office censorship and jailing birth control advocates.
The pendulum began reversing as the eugenics movement gained power. It reached its peak with the near-total allowance of abortion up to birth.
The pendulum has swung back again with Dobbs, and already the anti-abortion crowd is pushing extremes which will fuel the next reversal. The only bright spot is that it is so far up to individual states, but if the Democrats or Republicans push through national legislation, they will speed up the reversal, although national legislation is easier to reverse than misbegotten Supreme Court decisions.
But it is the Catholic Church which held the line -- for the longest time -- on both birth control and abortion. They still officially oppose both, at least technically.
The Protestants merely didn't want to discuss sex at all -- Comstock was about the "preservation of virtue" and "suppression of vice" -- which was something different from the pro-life argument of today. Remember these were people who put petticoats on table legs for purposes of decency.
"Anti-papists began the anti-abortion push in the 1800s to defeat Irish and Italian and other Catholic immigration"
No, they sought to limit immigration to do this.
The only group that I am aware of using high birth rates to sustain demographic numbers are the French Canadians in Quebec -- which intentionally used a high birth rate to maintain their numbers against English immigration.
Abortion was winked at before the quickening until the anti-papists began outlawing it so the white Anglo-Saxon Protestants would not be outbred by papists.
The pendulum began reversing as the eugenics movement gained power. It reached its peak with the near-total allowance of abortion up to birth.
This is on par with calling Democrats groomers. The right to choose is an individualized choice; eugenics was about social planning. Absent distant history or conspiracy theories, they are not related.
It's incredible to me how withered the arguments on the pro-life side have become since 2016.
Sarcastro, look up who Margaret Sanger was.
Just sayin....
I'm sorry Sarcastr0, you were saying wrt to conspiracy theories and eugenics...
Every single case of inherited defect, every malformed child, every congenitally tainted human being brought into this world is of infinite importance to that poor individual; but it is of scarcely less importance to the rest of us and to all of our children who must pay in one way or another for these biological and racial mistakes. — Margaret Sanger
Eugenics is the most adequate and thorough avenue to the solution of racial, political and social problems. — Margaret Sanger
Give dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization. — Margaret Sanger
Birth control itself, often denounced as a violation of natural law, is nothing more or less than the facilitation of the process of weeding out the unfit, of preventing the birth of defectives or of those who will become defectives. — Margaret Sanger
Nah, we won't mention that Margaret Sanger founded Planned Parenthood. No conspiracy to weed out undesirables there, amirite Sarcastr0? No way.
Go ahead, ally yourself with her. A match made in...wherever.
Yeah, that's a shitty talking point you uncorked just now. I even anticipated it:
"Absent distant history or conspiracy theories, they are not related"
As nonsensical as talking about how Democrats nowadays love slavery and the KKK.
Sanger's words, and actions, speak for themselves Sarcastr0. Sanger's legacy, if you want to call it that, is Planned Parenthood. That is just historical fact. PP advocates for unrestricted abortion today. That ain't distant history, Sarcastr0. Sorry.
I accurately cited Sanger, and the quotes encapsulate her attitudes and beliefs wrt eugenics. Look, if you want to align yourself with Sanger's values (you evidently have) and be an ideological ally, feel free.
Explain how Sanger is relevant to why people are pro choice today.
Dunk, dunk, dunk.
You show that you have no answer.
Sarcastr0 also recently claimed that four years ago was distant history. He has a very short time horizon for when history is relevant for his side. And a very long one for when things are relevant to everyone else.
"The right to
choosekill is an individualized choice..."FIFY
Actually, the anti-abortion movement began in the second half of the 19th Century as a effort to protect women from abortionists, whose techniques at the time were more likely to terminate the mother than the pregnancy.
" It's fine to be economically or fiscally conservative—Biglaw defends Big Business, after all—but there is increasingly no place for social conservatives in many large law firms, as well as elite circles more generally….
That sentence explains Donald Trump and the schism in the GOP.
In what conceivable way?
The GOP establishment is similar to the Big Law folk.
So your theory is that Trump was successful because social conservatives decided to vent their frustrations with the elite by supporting Donald Trump, a New York billionaire who was one of the least socially-conservative major Republican candidates in a generation?
If true, not sure that says anything great about social conservatives!
Look at what Trump did -- not just said.
1: Appointed the Dobbs Court.
2: Put our embassy in Jerusalem.
3: Took on China over trade.
4: Made us energy self sufficient.
5: Tried to build a wall.
6: Rebuilt the military.
7: Didn't start any wars.
The supposed anti-war Democrats forgot to care about that. Turns out they were only against wars in order to harm America. No opportunity to side against America, no interest in the subject from Dems.
Your first one is the only even arguable example of social conservatism, and it’s one that unquestionably would have been replicated by any other plausible Republican candidate.
Except all the times that "would have" happened but somehow didn't. Whoops.
I think Dr. Ed's point is pretty clear:
If Trump had stuck to economic / fiscal conservatism, the establishment (including the Republican establishment) wouldn't've had such a shrieking, spitting fit.
Two Eds are better than one!
That's sort of a weird argument, since he didn't come anywhere near economic / fiscal conservatism in the first place.
Grinberg's comment has to be interpreted in the light of the fact that the establishment GOP's "economic / fiscal conservatism" doesn't come anywhere near real economic / fiscal conservatism in any case.
No more illusions about what type of people leftists are.
And no need to even consider treating them any better than they treat others. Or to listen to them when they advocate for any sort of civil behavior, because it’s always exclusive, never for people in general.
Well someone is giving them permission to do some violence.
Leftists do indeed pre-justify violence. For example, by saying speakers on campus cause some individuals to be "unsafe". Violence was thereby justified and invited, and then leftists accepted the invitation and committed acts of violence against speakers on campus and in other venues.
And if you are saying treating you the way you treat others is a justification of violence, then that acknowledges you use violence.
No. I mean you are giving yourself permission to engage in violence. Like it couldn't be more clear that you're consistently talking yourself into something
When you say that treating you the way you treat others is a justification of violence, that tells people what they need to know about you.
I've literally never said anything of the sort and you won't be able to find anything. You on the other hand are reaching Jimmy levels of permission giving as you work through justifications for you to engage in violence at a later point.
Anyone can look at the context right here.
I meant themselves in the original post. But let me be extremely clear. Your entire posting history is a catalogue of you making broad-based pronouncements of the evils of the left and how you lack any agency whatsoever and are driven by them to abandon norms of conduct. You are only a few steps removed from turning into elnurmamedrafiev and openly advocating for mass extermination.
Keep making up stories about what the bogeyman will do.
Lol Brett is literally doing that below and you endorsed it based on zero evidence.
And you too.
There's no "evidence" of something happening in the future.
There’s no “evidence” of something happening in the future.
Um, most (but not all!) of science is about finding evidence of something happening in the future.
That's not what "evidence" means.
You guys say "evidence" to mean speculation that you agree with and "no evidence" to mean speculation you disagree with.
You guys say “evidence” to mean speculation that you agree with and “no evidence” to mean speculation you disagree with.
Seems like you're the one here arguing for all sorts of speculation about liberals.
That's bad and dumb.
If you find someone speculating baselessly about conservatives, you get to call that bad and dumb.
But right now, this is about you. Being bad. And dumb. And, as LTG pointed out, a bit scary in a dehumanizing way.
So no argument about "evidence" then. Good. Let's all agree that stories about the future are not "evidence".
What am I arguing *for* that I need evidence? I'm arguing that you need evidence, Ben!
You can absolutely make predictions about the future based on evidence. Maybe try it sometime.
Which is not something that happened.
Indeed Ben, you made a prediction based on no evidence, and endorsed another of the same. And then tried to argue anyone pointing out your utter lack of evidence was the real villain here, because predictions based on evidence aren't a thing.
Maybe go back to calling Prof. Somin someone driven by a need for social acceptance by the in crowd. Less shameful than where you ended up here.
S_0,
"most (but not all!) of science is about finding evidence of something happening in the future"
There is and cannot be any such evidence of events that have not happened. There are highly probable predictions. But equations are not evidence.
Keep in mind that, as bad as it is now, this is only the leading edge of the indoctrinated moving into decision making positions. Ten years from now it's going to be exponentially worse.
I honestly think death camps will be on the table in another decade or two.
That tells us a lot.
That Brett sees leftists for who and what they are.
"I honestly think death camps will be on the table in another decade or two."
You do realize that there are actually people doing mass killings right now, and/or encouraging state violence, and its not leftists, right?
You do also realize that the people opposed to current government detention policies are not leftists, right?
You realize that there are Republicans who are as we speak ready to use state force to deny medical care to populations they don't like, right?
This is pure delusion at worst, and projection at best. You think there will be death camps because you place so little value on human life you think its an acceptable political solution. Fortunately for you, this is inconsistent with liberal values!
Are you insane?!?
"You realize that there are Republicans who are as we speak ready to use state force to deny medical care to populations they don’t like, right?"
Slicing off healthy body parts does not constitute "medical care" in my book. "Medical care" involves treating illnesses and injuries -- and I don't want this denied to anyone.
Well you're not a doctor.
Slicing off healthy body parts is a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
Oh no, he is a Doctor of Education (or so he claims).
So your statement is false but your conclusion is correct.
“You realize that there are Republicans who are as we speak ready to use state force to deny medical care to populations they don’t like, right?”
Apparently you're admitting that in this intentionally ambiguous sentence the "populations" in question include those who want doctor-assisted genital and breast amputation because of their mental disorders.
You don't have to be a doctor to recognize lunacy like yours for what it is.
'Slicing off healthy body parts'
This is the new blood libel. People choose to do this, it makes them better, you demonise them and launch campaigns of hate against them. Like the Nazis did.
They don't look very happy...
There's an entire political party dedicated to making their lives miserable and horrible, they have a lot on their plate.
No Jews mixed the blood of Christian babies into their Passover dough.
But, yes, healthy body parts ARE being sliced off.
So your "blood libel" analogy falls on its face at the first hurdle.
(This website is having problems)
A response I received from feedback:
"There was a backend update that did not work out. It has been reversed until more testing can be done."
There is an unconfirmed report that Trump has learned to code - - - - - - -
"You think there will be death camps because you place so little value on human life you think its an acceptable political solution. Fortunately for you, this is inconsistent with liberal values!"
Leftists aren't, in any way, liberal. They don't subscribe to liberal values. They pretend to sometimes, but only as a tactic, and exclusively for the benefit of specific individuals. They do whatever they can get away with to everyone else.
Yes, the “it depends on what the meaning of is, is” defense, remains popular.
???
Indeed, it was unclear if the sin being asserted was (1)denying post-birth abortions or (2) slicing off healthy breasts and penises, but further inquiry has established that the improperly denied "medical care" was the latter.
I honestly think death camps will be on the table in another decade or two.
Yeah, that says a lot more about you than reality.
I don't think the GOP is going to turn into the Nazi party either.
Their antidemocratic push is different, but also very bad.
They do tolerate and defend Nazis, which they should stop doing.
Because everyone can see it's not about free speech, because there is only certain speech that the right ends up defending like that. And Nazi support is part of that set.
On the contrary, everybody can see it IS about free speech.
And you're of the party of censorship.
Brett, you talk about purging Communists *all the time*.
Maybe sit this one out, lest you be seen as a preening hypocrite.
Odd. They're not the party taking books out of schools and libraries.
Oh yes they are.
Scott Adams has a 25% rule. In any survey, roughly 25% of the respondants will answer stupidly wrong. Once you see it....
Market will sort this out.
There are only so many times clients can lose in front of a conservative Supreme Court (or fail to lobby a conservative Congress critter) before clients realize they are getting bad woke advice and fire their lawyers.
Go woke, go broke. You just cant ignore half of America and hope to compete.
Noticing that Roe has resulted in "Conservatively" 50 million fewer Afro-Amuricans (Yes Nit-pickers, depends on what number you use for AA fertility rate, and if you consider that most of the females terminated would have had children) since 1973 is Race-ist? I thought that was the whole point, or as the computer nerds say, it's (fewer Afro-Amuricans) not a "Bug", its a "Feature"
Frank "for more babies of any race, color, or creed (OK, Creed sucks), just race/color)"
While I can understand why the unnamed partner wants to remain anonymous, surely her firm won’t have any trouble identifying her from the information provided?
I doubt it. The only really identifying information is that at some point, an office manager asked a lawyer if she is pro-life and at some point there was a dispute about her termination. Hard to rule out that this only happened at one firm.
Sure, biglaw firms are constantly negotiating seven-figure departure settlements with long semi-retired equity partners, necessitated by semi-retired partner’s very open expression of political views unacceptable to the firm and its client base.
Nothing unusual about that! Plus, the firm already knows who she is, because they are in formal negotiations.
According to the post, the partner did not make any sort of public expression of political views, other than answering in the affirmative when a superior asked if she was pro-life.
I think you're confusing the anecdote at the end with the main story.
...towards the beginning of the story:
This is very much partisan political expression, in a forum created to include a large proportion of members of the firm.
That's the statement made by Robin Keller, the fired Hogan Lovells partner who wrote the Wall Street Journal op ed. I'm talking about the second, anonymous partner at the putatively unidentified firm.
The opposite point of view is just as much a "partisan political expression, in a forum created to include a large proportion of members of the firm". What's your point?
Assuming the account is true, then it's been revealed that since the Dobbs decision (i.e. within the last 5 months)
1. A female partner stopped declined to take pro-choice and reproductive-rights pro bono work
2. The male managing partner asked if she was pro-life, she said she was, and he called her racist
3. The firm tried to fire her
4. She retained a lawyer and is finalizing an exit agreement saying she is not being terminated for cause, and paying her more than a million dollars.
I am admittedly not all that attuned to big law culture at the moment, but I can't believe that scenario is playing out in too many different places.
If nothing else, if I were the managing partner, I'd certainly have some pretty strong suspicions who they were talking about!
They might know who they are, but (to date), we don't.
That is almost certainly all they care about at this point.
Presumably the golden handshake isn't because they want to.
How does figuring out who she is change that?
There's a line to be drawn here but I'm not sure exactly where. Suppose at the meeting a partner had said that his only real objection to the Holocaust is that it didn't actually succeed in eradicating all the world's Jews. I suspect most here would have little heartburn if his firm decided to fire him. But he, too, was merely expressing an opinion that firm management vehemently disagrees with. How is this case different from that one?
I suppose part of it is nose counting -- there are more people who are anti-abortion than there are people who are pro-Holocaust. And some of those anti-abortion people consider abortion the moral equivalent of the Holocaust and would happily fire someone for being pro-choice.
So, is there a principled line to be drawn, with totally unacceptable views on one side and merely unpopular beliefs on the other? And if not, maybe we just let companies decide for themselves what kind of culture they want to have.
Well, we could start by saying that a view expressed by a majority of the current Supreme Court is per se acceptable. Likewise any view expressed by a majority of Congress or a state legislature.
Not that such views are necessarily correct, just acceptable.
Indeed, you'd think that a law firm that disagreed with the Court would want to keep such a partner around, if only to bounce arguments off of before trying them on the Court.
If they cared more about being effective, than avoiding any association with the tainted.
I think the line to be drawn is not on the views themselves, but the impact on the workplace (or on clients/customers in limited cases) in context of when the view is expressed.
It seems very disingenuous for an employer to say that an attorney disrupted the workplace and had to be terminated because she politely spoke about a subject that the employer specifically asked attorneys to talk about, even if the speech was horrible.
If would be different if the attorney said the same thing in weekly blast emails to the entire firm or in unsolicited emails to clients.
The problem with that standard is that it motivates the kind of performative fainting spells on display in the Above the Law article.
That's true, but ideally a court will be able to see through such things.
The David Lat post cites to an old EV article collecting statutes protecting political expression of employees. I remember looking into those and a lot of them still allowed for disciplinary action if the expression conflicted with a "bona-fide" employment requirement. I imagine the employer has to make a good-faith claim that a conflict exists and the performative displays of the attorneys at this firm would probably not be enough for the employer to honestly say the workplace was meaningfully disrupted. But that's just guessing on my part.
If you solicit opinions it's extraordinary to turn around and claim that a perfectly ordinary and common response gives cause for termination on the grounds of workplace disruption.
Nothing the fired lawyer said is remotely akin to declaring regret that Hitler didn't manage to kill all the Jews. The problem with a partner saying that isn't workplace disruption, it's that it is a dirty secret.
"his only real objection to the Holocaust is that it didn’t actually succeed in eradicating all the world’s Jews."
Well, I don't believe this, but I am a troublemaker and let me propose a hypothetical argument -- the problem with the Holocaust was that it didn't succeed in removing all the Jews from Europe.
And what was the stated goal of the Zionist movement circa 1930?
Didn't *they* want to remove the Jews from Europe?
That's the problem I have with knee-jerk statements -- things are never as simple as a social justice warrior might want them to be.
Buckle up, folks!
I find the whole column baffling.
I am not a lawyer, so maybe that is my problem. I THOUGHT lawyers represented clients. The fact that a lawyer represents a client does not mean the lawyer agrees with the client's view. At least, so I thought. Some lawyers make their careers defending people accused of crimes. Are these attorneys so naive that they believe that ALL of their clients are innocent? Or do they represent them because that is their job? Many lawyers represent the first client who came in the door on a case. If one bank is suing another, a lawyer would represent the bank that already had a relationship with the firm. Or the company that did not have a conflict with the firm. Or the one that would pay the higher fees? Does the lawyer agree with the client? Who knows? Who cares?
For lawyer #2, I would have thought the answer when asked whether they would refuse to work for pro-choice clients would have been "Of course not! I represent clients across the political spectrum. I will happily represent any pro bono clients you want. I will support the firm's political views. I just do not happen to have time to take on any pro bono work right now." At least, that would make sense. If asked whether they are pro-choice or anti abortion, I would have thought a good answer would be "I will represent anyone who fits with the goals of the firm. My political views have nothing to do with it." Or, having just learned, if she did not know before, that the firm was solidly pro-choice, she could simply declare her loyalty to the views of the firm, whatever they may be. If she could not tolerate working for a firm that had a set of institutional political views that differed from her own, then leaving would be a good decision.
Again, I am not a lawyer, but no matter what the leadership might say about a session, I would never discuss politics, religion or an issue that involved both, in a work setting. I do not know whether I would risk being fired for saying the wrong thing, but I am not interested in finding out.
Lawyer 1 could have just kept her mouth shut. Perhaps more difficult for lawyers than other people, but I thought this profession was known for discretion? If asked, she could have said something like "This session is really not about me. As a senior retired former equity partner, I am decades past facing an abortion decision myself. I am here to listen to my colleagues and show support. Let's focus on them." In other words, have sounds come out of her mouth while saying nothing.
Can a private employer refuse to hire, discriminate against and fire people who do not toe the political line of the firm? I thought so, but again, I am not a lawyer. I do keep my mouth shut on controversial topics at work.
“No longer need we prove causal link before taking legal action. Simple disparate impact analysis to discern racial disparities is sufficient to presume structural problems in society, justifying legal action!”
“What about abortion?”
“Shut up!” he explained.
Of course, the immediate reply: the racial impact drives differences in poverty, and poorer people tend to get more abortions.
Which is fine, if discussion hasn't been silenced already.
You do know that "pro bono" means "for free", right? So we're not discussing whether she'd do the job for pay, we're discussing whether she'd voluntarily donate her time to a cause she disagreed with.
Of course it means free. But it was apparently an expectation of employment at her firm. If she wanted to work there, she had to do some free work, apparently for leftists. So what? Some other firms might expect work for right wing causes. Or prefer to avoid political clients. Hard to imagine she could have worked there long without understanding this.
"If you want to keep working here, start doing pro bono for left wing causes"
"OK. Give some my contact info and we will set up appointments."
What is the big deal?
"Oh! Here's one. They want to force the school board to set up free marijuana dispensaries in all elementary schools so the kids do not have to go elsewhere to get their weed. Sounds like fun. Sign me up."
" If she wanted to work there, she had to do some free work, apparently for leftists."
Apparently until just recently, it didn't have to be for leftists.
I think I preferred when lawyers were ruthless capitalists.
"...it was apparently an expectation of employment at her firm [that] If she wanted to work there, she had to do some free work... for leftists."
Apparently not, or they wouldn't have had to pay her off.
"Can a private employer refuse to hire, discriminate against and fire people who do not toe the political line of the firm?"
Absent a contractual provision or state statute prohibiting that, yes.
.
Nor for theocratic authoritarians. But I, increasingly, repeat myself.
Liberals are evil, disgusting people who feign outrage to silence dissent. This is exactly why I say that we need to exterminate these people. It isn't enough to criticize. They need to be in graveyards.
As opposed to certain males who, instead of claiming they’re about collapse like an antebellum belle with a case of the vapors, rage around at the thought of a man inside another man’s “tuchus”, and use male rage to try to change the law, instead of female Scarlet O’Hara-like sympathy building.
You're the one who kvells about the concept of your son growing up to be a feygele and ramming the "nice Jewish" boy he brings home.
Love that mute button!
Replied to the wrong person.
We live in an age of Gulf of Tonkin incidents, yet forget that “Review of action makes many reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful. Freak weather effects on radar and overeager sonarmen may have accounted for many reports. …Suggest complete evaluation before any further action taken.”
Placing a swastika inside of a Star of David isn't something I would do, but it is also something that does not move me to violence, raise my hackles against one who draws or disseminates such images, or cause me to wish to suppress such imagery; in fact, I am moved to protect such expressions.
For the sake of argument, let us reasonably assume that the imagery remains inanimate and cannot itself cause harm; instead, it can only initiate discussion among humans. Some of those humans may indeed espouse the view that the two symbols and the views represented thereby must find a way to live harmoniously side-by-side. Why is that viewpoint so frightening? Why are leftists so afraid of competing views? Is it because the leftist viewpoint is weak and, as now documented by numerous pollsters in the wake of recent elections, is a viewpoint supported by an ever-dwindling, ever-shouting minority?
Finally, are folks like Ye forcing us to review our own willingness to enforce our own highest laws? Do we still have the courage of our commitment to freedom of speech... and to freedom of association?
Some of those humans may indeed espouse the view that the two symbols and the views represented thereby must find a way to live harmoniously side-by-side. Why is that viewpoint so frightening? Why are leftists so afraid of competing views?
Is this a serious post? People who sport the swastika want to eliminate Jews from society. They can't "live harmoniously" with each other. The view point of people who use swastikas is frightening because the last group who did that murdered six million Jews. The competing view is: Jews should not be allowed to live.
"Do we still have the courage of our commitment to freedom of speech… and to freedom of association?"
Yes. That's why no one with any morals (or at least with common sense), is using their speech to denounce Ye and using their freedom of association to exclude him from things. Because his viewpoint is that "Hitler was good, actually."
So, morals determine the extent to which a person is allowed to speak? Or are you saying that both (immoral) Ye and (purportedly moral) you have equal rights to speak as loudly and through whatever medium you choose?
Is a view that “Jews spread evil” a prohibited viewpoint here in America? Is the view that "Russian invaders must die" a prohibited viewpoint?
You and him are allowed to say whatever you want. But no one has to listen to you. No one has to engage with you. No one has to debate with you. No one has to do business with you. No one has to let you in their house or their business. No one has to let you on their social media platform.
In fact they have every right to denounce you, shame you, and exclude you from their lives. You are not entitled to an audience or a platform. You are not entitled to friends and advertisers. You can hang out with Ye and Fuentes on Gab or some other twitter knock-off and do your antisemitic circle-jerk there as long s they allow you to. But don't expect normal people to engage with it or support it in any way.
You're divorcing the concept of free speech from its underlying principles and purposes and reducing it to a narrow legal doctrine. With that outlook, you'll find it doesn't take much to end up at the same place as if the 1st Amendment didn't exist at all. Sure, you won't be imprisoned for unpopular speech, but you will be deprived of employment and ostracized from mainstream society. People will self-censor out of fear and join in the unofficial punishments of others.
Remember that the untold numbers of people who signed the denunciations during the Stalinist and Maoist regimes didn't all have guns to their heads.
Okay Three things.
1. There has never been a time in this country when people weren't subject to shame and social opprobrium because of their views. How many people were openly gay until recently, for instance.
2. People self censor all the time. You say things to your wife you don't say to your friends. You say things to your friends you don't say to your boss. Self-censorship is literally just being a human in a society.
3. Hilariously (but not surprisingly) you are doing what you are saying is bad in your own post! You are trying to shame and denounce me by comparing me to Mao and Stalin!
1. Yes. And that is bad to the extent that the shame and opprobrium extends to professional and employment relationships (with exceptions for things like political employment or advertising spokespeople, etc). It's a natural human instinct that should be combatted, much like racism or suspicion of others for being different.
2. Yes. I maintain relationships and acknowledge that there are certain boundaries governing interactions within that personal relationship. I do not have a personal relationship with my employer generally or with my bank or credit card company, for instance, because the connection that exists does not depend upon personal affection but an exchange of value.
Accordingly, I should not have to censor my expression about political candidates or social movements out of fear that my credit card company will cancel my account because it has nothing to do with the value I provide. Same thing with employers when the speech has nothing to do with my employment. Yet, when you treat the First Amendment as nothing more than a legal restriction against the government, it's easy to think that I SHOULD face consequences for no other reason than that I hold different views. And in the face of a few upset customers or employees, companies will almost always capitulate rather than stick up for one or two unpopular people.
And if you don't think people will either gleefully or resignedly go along with this, again, ask why millions of people signed denunciations of their neighbors?
3. Not at all, and you know this. I criticize your position because I believe you are mistaken, not because I want you to suffer.
"1. There has never been a time in this country when people weren’t subject to shame and social opprobrium because of their views."
There was, however, a time when people would have been reasonably confident of not being subject to shame and social opprobrium for mainstream views.
She's being kicked out for holding views shared by approximately half the population.
The problem here is the left have managed to position themselves so that they can punish people for holding COMMON views.
Americans don’t have, and have never had, any right to be free of shaming or shunning. The First Amendment protects our right to speak free of government interference. It does not protect us from other people saying mean things in response to our speech. The very notion is completely incoherent. Someone else shaming me is their free speech, and someone else shunning me is their free association, both protected by the First Amendment.
...
slapping a different label like “norms” on the assertion doesn’t cure the central problems it poses. The problems are these:
...
We don’t have a consensus on how we reconcile the interests of speakers and responders, and we’re not making a serious attempt to reach one.
We don’t have a consensus about what to do about it and we’re not trying to reach one.
...
https://popehat.substack.com/p/our-fundamental-right-to-shame-and
Lol popehat is a thin-skinned loser who can't take even the slightest criticism without blocking people.
Besides, this free-association right of employers and other entities is not unlimited, as demonstrated by union organizing laws, and is pretty weak generally, as demonstrated by the several state laws EV collected in the article mentioned in the Lat post. The free-association right of an employer to not employ non-public-facing people who express things on their own time that the employer doesn't like is negligible.
Ad hominem followed by an irrelevant legal point in a social/values discussion.
You seemed thoughtful above. I think you are thoughtful. Read the text (sorry, I know the italics can be annoying to some) and let me know what you think!
It's not an ad hominem to point out that the rant, typically lame for Popehat, is actually a defense of a knee-jerk reaction by the author.
So, morals determine the extent to which a person is allowed to speak?
Not enforced by the government (other than like Brandenberg incitement), but by private people? Yeah, social control is a thing that exists.
A radical commitment to free speech would not be workable. As twitter is re-learning.
All Twitter is learning right now is that the left won't PERMIT a radical commitment to free speech to be workable. They will do everything in their power to destroy any outlet that doesn't adopt their censorship.
Because, like any totalitarian movement, they view free speech as a dire threat.
I know you have a thing to always look left, but just this once check out what twitter just did to Kanye.
A lesson was learned there.
Yes: Thanks to free speech, the whole world can decide for itself that Yeezy is as unhinged as Twitter thinks he is.
Twitter suspended Kanye. That's free speech?
Tweeting is not a civil right unless the State interferes with it.
Yes, that applied to Trump, too.
I really don't understand why it would be unworkable on Twitter. Even before Musk, there was an untold amount of content and posts that I would dislike, or would make me angry, or was just boring to me, that was nonetheless allowed under the moderation rules. Yet I rarely saw it because I didn't follow people who posted such things, or if I did, I chose to unfollow them.
I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of how looser moderation policies would change that.
You getting mad isn't really a big deal.
Tons of consumers getting mad is. Other countries getting mad is. Advertisers getting worried about their brand is.
Unless you want government mandated tolerance of all viewpoints, you're going to have issues with people collectively reacting negatively to some viewpoints, and acting economically.
And that doesn't even touch on the Paradox of Tolerance of Karl Popper.
Why are these people getting mad about something that doesn't affect them in any way? You know what's gross and I don't want to see on Twitter but was nonetheless allowed before Musk? Suggestive Furry art. You know what has absolutely no bearing on my Twitter experience because I choose not to seek it out? Suggestive Furry art. The same with racist tweets.
Karl Popper's paradox is astoundingly stupid. It completely misunderstands the 1st Amendment as a concept and ignores the obvious scenario in which people respond to intolerant speech with "You're a moron and nobody cares what you think" or "these intolerant acts you advocate are illegal and we aren't going to change the law for the following reasons..." It's something people quote when they want some sort of faux intellectual justification for censorship.
Why are these people getting mad about something that doesn’t affect them in any way?
Because people work like that. Anyone with values will react to what other people are doing and saying.
You want with SFA and not full on porn...think about why that is.
Karl Popper’s paradox is astoundingly stupid
That's an incredible choice, to come in that hot against Popper. Anyhow, Popper was working from some historical examples.
People are not rational machines - they respond to emotionalism and propaganda. Rational discourse alone is ill-equipped to prevent that. Stooping to the level of such methods is also a bad move for the state to make.
It is a sign of ivory tower insulation plus historical ignorance to think that private tolerance of all points of views is either implementable or good.
Blast I was too late on the edit. That should be "everyone with morals"
Placing a swastika inside of a Star of David isn’t something I would do, but it is also something that does not move me to violence, raise my hackles against one who draws or disseminates such images,
Really. It doesn't raise your hackles. Fine people do that all the time, is what you think?
On both sides: https://combatantisemitism.org/latest-news/palestinian-demonstrators-burn-star-of-david-with-swastika-in-middle-in-nablus-area/
https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-art-exhibit-compares-swastika-with-Star-of-David-471772
Also someone left a drawing equating the two at Cornell University around September of this year.
'Some of those humans may indeed espouse the view that the two symbols and the views represented thereby must find a way to live harmoniously side-by-side.'
These people are stupid, and/or evil.
'Finally, are folks like Ye forcing us to review our own willingness to enforce our own highest laws?'
Twitter's TOS aren't anyone's highest laws, not even Twitter's.
I really do wonder:
1) Must/should Ford Motor Company change its name and refrain from all marketing communications because its founder, an actual Nazi, was accurately quoted by Ye?
2) Since Twitter has determined that the quotation by Ye incites violence, must/should Twitter also suppress all comments by Ford Motor Company?
3) Must/should Ford Motor Company be allowed to refuse to hire Ye as a spokesperson?
You don't really do wonder, don't pretend.
Context matters. Ford's shittiness turns out to have been outshined by the brand. Should that change, and consumers demand the name be dropped, Ford would and should follow the profits and drop the name.
Of course that tweed doesn't incite violence. Twitter is being silly; you don't need to pile on with tendentious hypoes, everyone including Twitter knows this.
For context, Sarcastr0 is willing to overlook antisemitism by a Nazi, but believes a conservative lawyer should be hounded out of her job because she said the US Supreme Court got a decision right.
I guess there's a reason the Nazis called themselves the National Socialists.
I doubt that you really wonder at all, but I'll play anyway.
1. "Must/should"? No. If enough people cared enough about Henry Ford's non-automotive thoughts to cost the company significant money, though, then "May."
2. Twitter can do what it damn pleases. And it doesn't have to be consistent. And the rest of us can point and laugh.
3. Yes.
I totally believe that multiple lawyers "lost their ability to breathe" when confronted by someone who doesn't like abortion. I'm surprised they even survived the ordeal.
I do not accept that "elite circles" accurately defines a collection of bigots.
There may be an interpretation more favorable to the law firm than the one Professor Volokh and his source are goving, which might be worth mentioning. It seems the habit of viewing ones political opponents charitably seems to have gone out of fashion, indeed might be considered making one somewhat of a chump and not a real committed fighter.
The law partner here refused work assigned her by the firm. That is, she was unwilling to assume the traditional lawyer’s role of representing any client (or at least any of the law firm’s clients) regardless of what she personally thinks. That decision to put her own political beliefs above the firm’s interests may have affected the firm’s decision.
Since what’s being presented his her story, from her point of view, it’s obviously not being presented that way. But the firm’s side of the story might show things in a different light.
At the very least, it’s not clear to me that her decision to refuse a client over political differences should be regarded as unequivocally good and her right, while her law firm’s decision not to accept this should be regarded as unequivocally bad and evidence the firm is evil. Why should her right to employment, which is traditionally at will, be considered superior to a client’s right to representation? The constitution permits judges to compel a lawyer to represent a client, so it seems hard to understand why it should trump under neutral principles.
I think one should step out of what one thinks about abortion and try to think about this more neutrally.
If there's a more charitable view, perhaps you should try to describe it.
But do remember that what she turned down was doing work for free for a particular cause.
Now the dumb c*nt Pelosi is publicly saying the Democrats will release Trump's tax return. everything these evil people do is in bad faith. They never cared about tax fraud or audits. It was always about using government to punish a political enemy. It's too bad that the 1/6 protesters weren't 1/100th the monsters the left made them out to be.
She was saying they'd do that, back in 2020, so that's hardly a surprise.
Yes, of course it was always about publicly releasing them... If they manage to find anything embarrassing. But only if they do.
Yes. If "animus" was enough for Kennedy in Romer v. Evans, it should have been enough for the courts here.
Indeed. Reviewing them is fine, but if they can publicly release Trump's tax returns, they can release mine.
That's nobody else's business (and I never falsely promised to release them to induce people to vote for me).
You have to read past the headline, Brett. She did not say that they would do that in 2020.
Her claim was, as Brett said, made in 2020.
Michael, that isn't what she said in 2020, it is what some reporter claimed she meant. The actual quote is
That doesn't necessarily promise releasing the returns, it could simply mean that the committee will examine them and publicly report its findings.
By similar argument, when a guy in a bad suit says "you have a nice shop here, it would be a shame if something happened to it", he's just expressing concern about the local criminal element.
But she said "the world will see what [Trump] has been hiding". That implies seeing the returns. If she meant releasing a partisan distortion of what's in the returns, she would have said "learn" or "read in the New York Times".
You absolutely get to have your own interpretation, you just don't get to have your own facts.
And the First Amendment protects your right to post stupid apologia for mafioso-like statements.
That she said “see” is what’s known as a “fact”.
That she meant "see" is also clear,
To be clear, the racist loser who keeps changing his name is lying; Pelosi did not say anything of the kind.
(That having been said, the racist loser is also misrepresenting things when he characterizes this as an attempt to "punish" Trump. Releasing tax returns is not a "punishment," which is why all the other candidates routinely do it themselves.)
I do think the Democrats will release Trump’s tax returns in full, simply because they want to, and can’t be stopped. I also think that would be the wrong thing to do.
"Pelosi did not say anything of the kind."
Yes, she did.
Actual quote almost immediately upthread.
So, I'm being hysterical in thinking there may be death camps in another decade or two.
But at the same time, multiple left-wingers in this thread are OK with driving people who hold perfectly mainstream, widespread views out of a law firm. And college faculties. And off of public media. And denying them use of various public services such as banking.
Cut them off from anything the left manages to get any control over, which they aspire to be everything.
Are we going to be permitted to live in the wilderness, eating roots and berries? No, that would be environmentally destructive.
Seriously, we are closer to the camps than I like to think about. The Overton window is moving so fast it's leaving a vapor trail.
"...multiple left-wingers in this thread are OK with driving people who hold perfectly mainstream, widespread views out of a law firm. And college faculties. And off of public media. And denying them use of various public services such as banking."
They're The Good Guys. Also these actions are, for some reason, called "liberal".
And yet, other "conservatives" yell at me when I say that we have to strike first.
Maybe they don't want to get caught in the crossfire when other people start shooting back?
As Justin Trudeau said last year:
“This leads us, as a leader and as a country, to make a choice: Do we tolerate these people?”
What's the peaceful alternative to tolerating people? Hint: there isn't one.
Yes there is. Not hanging out with them or doing business with them. See? That was easy.
Trudeau represents a country. A country can’t peacefully engage in "not hanging out with … or doing business with" the country's citizens.
Sure but Hogan Lovels sure can and yet here you are complaining about that too!
What was my specific complaint about it? Do you remember?
“No more illusions about what type of people leftists are.
And no need to even consider treating them any better than they treat others. Or to listen to them when they advocate for any sort of civil behavior, because it’s always exclusive, never for people in general.“
Why did you post this in response to the story unless you thought it was wrong?
To remind people who we are dealing with and what is the standard of behavior they exhibit.
So you are in fact complaining about this. Even though it is only about private conduct .
Am I?
Brett do you really not see a difference between not wanting to associate with shitty people who have shitty views and death camps? Are you really that dumb? Somehow I don't think you are.
Translation "Do you not see the difference between not wanting to associate with good people with opposing views (meaning liberals) and bad people (meaning conservatives)? It's very easy when you declare that some views are just outside the pale of acceptability, and those happen to mirror all conservative beliefs!
So you'd be OK with denying jobs to Communists, in in the Hollywood blacklist? Because if anything qualifies as a "shitty view," it's Marxism-Leninism.
The Hollywood blacklist was a reaction to government pressure, not an independent private decision.
So you're saying that Hollywood was really OK with associating with people with shitty views, and just disassociated themselves because the government made them?
'Give me a job or you want me to die!' is as entitled a snowflake take as I've ever seen.
'Give her a job or you want death camps' is beyond even that.
Incredible work, Brett!
You're lying about what he said of course.
You always lie,
I think they should have unionised, then they would have been afforded the kind of protections that might have prevented this from happening at all.
Incorrect
No union; this happened. QED.
That's only true if the union itself reveres the same kind of freedom of expression you do.
I think you know what kinds of speech a "union" of typical New York lawyers would protect...
Then it'd be a bad union. After that she'd need employee protections.
"No true union" is all you've got?
The fallibility of human institutions can hardly be novel to you.
I don't have to read further: the answer is yes.
Big Law cat fights are of little interest to me.
The scheduling of a bitch session was dumb, this lady's decision to participate knowing full well what it was for was dumb, the hysterical reactions were dumb and the firing decision was dumb. So much stupidity really.
There's outrage aplenty that Robin Keller was fired, as the WSJ opinion article subhead puts it, "for defending the Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision".
Except, she wasn't. When you get past the headline you find she reportedly expressed a view that equates Black women's access to abortion with genocide, a view that singles out Black women as unfit to make their own reproductive choices, and was fired for racism, not for defending Dobbs.
Of course, you might think that was an overreaction and deserving of criticism, but if so then criticize what actually happened.
I don’t think people on this board understand what “equate” means. “Some say it is a form of genocide” is not equating. Or even claiming that she agrees with the thought.
Yes, that was how she described her comments.
But in the ATL article an unnamed participant in the call said she was "spouting out racial vitriol about Black women abortions being a genocide that luckily Dobbs stops".
I don't know which account more accurately reflects the tone of the comments, but Hogan Lovells circulated an email that labelled them anti-Black and according to Forbes
and fired her on that basis. You may think they were wrong, or that a safe space to discuss Dobbs should also be a safe space for racism, but nothing I have seen supports the allegation that she was fired for supporting Dobbs.
Considering the proclivity of the left to see vile racism in random ink blots, I'm not seeing anything here supporting the allegation that it was due to actual racism, either.
Do you see how a black woman who has had an abortion might be a bit put out?
Why, no, I don't, because as I'm not a racist, and I happen to work with black women occasionally, I've gotten used to assuming that they're mature sane adults, not weeping children who fall apart the moment they hear someone express a viewpoint different from their own.
“express a viewpoint different from their own.”
The viewpoint being expressed here is that they are committing a genocide of themselves.
Has it ever occurred to you that they actually just put up with your bullshit but are actually very offended by the things you say to and around them?
Seriously, has it occurred to you that rational adults in a free society are actually expected to be able to cope with hearing things that they don't like? And that most people in my generation can pull that stunt off without even so much as breathing hard?
A society run by people who react in this manner to dissent is not one with a very rosy future.
It sounds to me like you say offensive shit all the time but people just put up with it because you’re a moderately powerful white man and they are used to being cagey around you.
You think that because you're a privileged little snot who engages in the currently popular kind of bigotry, and you project that onto Brett.
No. I’m actually not that privileged. I’m just a better person than him based on the moral criteria acceptable to most humans.
You're a little snot who simply assumes that your own moral criteria are held by most humans. Mostly in an "or else" sense.
To grow past your privilege, first you have to admit your privilege. Haven't you been paying attention to how this works?
You’re a little snot who simply assumes that your own moral criteria are held by most humans.
You're the one demonstrating you do not care about other human's emotions if you've decided they're just not rational enough for you.
Sure, call people names about it. You only demonstrate how wrong you are.
'And that most people in my generation can pull that stunt off without even so much as breathing hard?'
Have you ever actually met anyone from your generation?
The dish it but can’t take it generation.
Do they comfort you when you fall apart ranting about death camps?
Why, no, I don’t, because as I’m not a racist, and I happen to work with black women occasionally, I’ve gotten used to assuming that they’re mature sane adults, not weeping children who fall apart the moment they hear someone express a viewpoint different from their own.
So you DO see how they would be a bit put out but would prefer to answer a different question than I asked.
I know you are uber rational, and think other are as well. Alas, they are not, and sometimes you need to read the room so as not to come off like an uber rational utter asshole no one wants to work with.
This is how living with humans works.
" Why, no, I don’t, because as I’m not a racist, and I happen to work with black women occasionally, "
Did you insist that they provide a birth certificate in a manner satisfactory to you, Birther Brett Bellmore?
You might not be in an institution if you'd required birth certificates before committing those "Personal Fouls" Jerry
Has it ever occurred to you that being an old white man who lacks a lot of historical and cultural awareness won’t exactly be a good measure of what’s racist and what’s not?
Fanatical leftists like you are, of course, well known for not partaking in "Year Zero" rewriting of history, or demanding that the past be judged by the most extreme perspectives of today. They just ooze historical and cultural wokeness, and so their insistence on racism is well-justified and only condones the right kind of racism.
Don’t know what you’re talking about. But history is produced by historians who do archival research, engage with primary sources, question prevailing myths, and engage with secondary literature written by other experts in their field. Have you done any of that?
You don't know what I'm talking about because you lack self-awareness as well as historical and cultural awareness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Zero_(political_notion)
The American left today goes in for only slightly muted versions of the same thing, as in the 1619 Project and its attempts to rewrite history as being all about racial oppression.
Do you personally know the people on that call and the partners at Hogan Lovells are of "the left"? Or do you conclude they must be because they found racism in a statement they either heard first-hand or they spent three weeks investigating and you somehow know it wasn't?
In any case there is still no evidence she was fired for anything other than racism. Even if you prefer to believe her side of the story, that there was no actual racism (yes I noticed you slide in that straw) but only racism perceived by everyone else involved, it was still the reason for her termination.
It's not black women's "access" to abortion that would make it genocide, but the effect of that "access": A disproportionate number of dead black babies. When your decision is to abort your "fitness" to make "reproductive choices" is already usually AWOL.
Shaking my head at those on the left being pleased at someone being punished for wrongthink. Even if you don’t agree with it, what was said on the zoom call was not unreasonable or antagonistic.
This is why woke progressivism is a bigger THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACY!!!!! than Trump and his bullshit. Trump shot his wad and the system contained it easily. People like those in these law firms (and the Biden admin and the progressive press) are trying to stamp out diversity of thought and speech, which is a behavior more consistent with totalitarianism than with liberty. And nobody that matters can seem to slow it down, as evidenced by the support for it on this message board.
Hogan Lovels is not really Big Brother. You don't want private enterprise to act like private enterprise.
That's not workable. You are condemning others exercising their rights, which is as much a wrongthink wankery as anything.
Insisting all viewpoints be tolerated by private people and entities is actually both antidemocratic and quite authoritarian - you are requiring people act precisely as you will it lest you call people totalitarians.
Nope and nope.
As I said above, I don't think being in favor of Dobbs should lose you a job. And I don't think that's what happened here. This was a massive and shameful social fail. Like getting very drunk at the company Christmas party and throwing up all over the tree.
How is it a social fail? It was expressed poorly, but saying that it’s a tragedy that black babies are being disproportionately aborted is not racist. It’s kinda an expression of sympathy for black babies, which is the opposite of racist.
The second case was not an example of unpopular speech, because the punishee was too intimidated to say it. They were punished for merely thinking it.
I didn’t say they couldn’t exercise their rights. I said that choosing to exercise their rights in a manner that punishes mild but unpopular speech is bad our society. For all of us. Including you but you’re to doctrinaire to see it.
FWIW, I’m watching the companies that are coming out as opposed to speech and making my own naughty list. Those companies will never get another dime of my business to the extent that I can help it. And I have a lot of disposable income that my wife enjoys disposing. I’m sure you’d agree that that is MY right.
I think you’re reading the room as badly as this woman is, if you don’t see how saying abortion is tantamount to black genocide will be taken badly in a meeting about how Dobbs is effecting people.
‘Mild but unpopular’ is how I would characterize being pro life in places that tend liberal as well. But in a meeting like this, which is about emotional support and solidarity, what the hell was she thinking?!
As I said, huge social fail. And pulling back to talk only about the position being pro-Dobbs is missing how people actually work.
We all have our list of companies we don’t patronize for values reasons – go for it!
Finally, I get the distinction between legal and good. But saying you gotta exercise your rights like this or else you're a totalitarian is a sort of self-refuting take, seems to me.
"But in a meeting like this, which is about emotional support and solidarity, what the hell was she thinking?!"
That it wasn't a meeting about emotional support and solidarity, probably, but instead, as announced, a forum to discuss the decision. Maybe if they'd announced in advance that it was a "Hate Dobbs session, no contrary views permitted." things would have gone down differently.
This only seems to make sense to you because you share that left wing conviction that only left wing views are really legitimate to express.
Hogan Lovells organized a Zoom call in early July for female employees.
Keller joined the call, which mostly involved women expressing anger over Dobbs,
There are some clues here both in the meeting setup and once dialed in that that this wasn't about a sober legal discussion.
This is what reading the room means.
This wasn't about not reading the room. This was about thinking the room was being shared with sane adults who wouldn't swoon at hearing an opinion they didn't share.
Yes, it was about reading the room.
You at this point basically admit you know that, but have now retreated to the position that reading the room is disrespectful of others.
You've gone from potential misunderstanding to willful lack of empathy.
Setting up an official company no men allowed meeting should be enough information to understand lots of things about the organization, the people conducting the meeting, their regard for legalities and egalitarianism, etc. She should have expected bigotry from the beginning. There are hints that maybe she did.
Seems like a lot of people like to work in organizations that include space for some emotional stuff too.
You, though, seem like someone far too emotionally fulfilled to need anything like that!
That’s going to be your excuse for illegal discrimination and bigotry?
Haha, this is absolutely not illegal.
And it's not bigotry - it wasn't her views that got her in trouble, it's that she acted like an asshole at a quite awkward time.
Incorrect
You've got the assholes here exactly backasswards.
But then you are one.
Hard to believe someone could work for the firm long enough to make partner and be unaware of the mood of the people who joined the meeting. Even if they had that level of ignorance about the place they worked, they could feel the pulse pretty quickly.
Until they feel the pulse, it would be a good idea to keep quiet.
Actually, it would be a great idea to keep quiet long after learning the opinions of the speakers and the firm.
I cannot imagine participating in a discussion like this at work. If I were required to do so, which does not appear to be the case, I would not say anything.
Recently retired partner, now working part time. What probably happened is that the firm changed out from under her, and she hadn't yet picked up on how squirrely it had gotten on account of having brought in new partners who weren't quite sane.
Quite possibly.
Young people increasingly do not consider free speech worth tolerating. It can be quite a shock to realize that those are the people who are now beginning to run things (like law firms).
Totally ignoring that she referred to the abortion of black children as a tragedy. Which is not the statement of a racist. I don’t think Bull Conner thought that what happened at the 16th Street Baptist Church as a tragedy.
But you be you and do what political people do - ignore parts of things and twist stuff around to fit your preconceived narrative.
It is certainly a bizarre point to raise.
Was she arguing that black people who have abortions did not realize that they would not give birth?
Was she saying that they need to be forced to deliver in order to increase the number of black children? That is, the feeling of the pregnant person does not matter?
If she was not saying that, then why would it matter at all in an abortion debate that choice reduces the number of black people? That is a consequence of black people deciding for themselves whether to have children.
Why would increasing the number of black children be a goal?
If it is a goal at all, does the opinion of the people who have to deliver and raise these kids matter at all?
No, I think she was arguing that it was a tragedy that so many black babies were being murdered by their mothers, and perhaps that so many mothers had been warped into killing their own babies. Not, obviously, that they were unaware that killing their babies would render them dead.
"so many mothers had been warped into killing their own babies"
Presuming a fact not established.
We can speculate that more black people had abortions than would have if they did not have this choice. Seems plausible.
We can assume that the vast majority of these occurred with the patients' consent. Absent emergencies where the patient was unable to participate in the decision (say, they were unconscious), this also seems reasonable.
We just need to show that the patients were "warped into" their decisions. Is it the case that everyone who makes a decision with which someone disagrees must have been "warped into" it? Or do the simply disagree. Given the number of abortions, that is a huge number of people who got "warped."
Who "warped" them? And how?
Were the people who went ahead with pregnancies and died as a result "warped" into those decisions? How about those who doomed themselves and their existing kids to poverty? "Warped" or not?
You realize that, no matter how you voted, millions of people voted the other way. Do we have that many warped people in this country? Or do we just have political disagreements among people, some of whom are black, whose cognitive abilities are intact?
so many mothers had been warped into killing their own babies.
This is the problem you refuse to see. You can't accept that someone who decides to have an abortion is making a rational decision. Instead all those black women are just putty in the hands of those shaping their views - warping them.
Despite your claims above, it doesn't sound like really have much respect for black women's decision-making, if you disapprove of teh decision.
"You can’t accept that someone who decides to have an abortion is making a rational decision."
Bernard, immoral decisions ARE frequently rational decisions.
…so many mothers had been warped into killing their own babies.
Even leaving the race out of it, this is astoundingly tone deaf as something to tell a group who may have had an abortion. And it may have been a difficult decision.
You can talk about maturity all you want, but you go around telling people they’ve been warped into killing their own babies and I understand why they might not want to work with you anymore!
There’s having a point of view, and there’s being an asshole. You keep trying to explain what this woman means and digging a hole deeper than she ever did! And that's ignoring the tone and subject of the meeting, even.
There was nothing inappropriate about what she said.
And nothing wrong with pushing back against her fellow-employees groupthink, as she'd been invited to do.
It wasn't the room she misread, but her bosses' groveling reaction to the mob.
That's assuming she didn't want this outcome. James Damore, on similar facts, got a settlement.
It is only a tragedy when black children are killed? If it every abortion is a tragedy, then why bring up the effect specifically on black children?
Are they somehow more important than white or Asian children? If so, please provide a non-racist explanation for the reasoning.
they're actually less important if you go by the indifference to their being murdered, both pre and post birth
"If it(sic) every abortion is a tragedy, then why bring up the effect specifically on black children?"
Because racist virtue-signaling Anti-Racism is all the rage at her firm, of course.
Totally ignoring that she referred to the abortion of black children as a tragedy. Which is not the statement of a racist
Did you notice how I didn't call her racist? Maybe go back and read what I said and respond to THAT, not what the liberal in your head keeps saying.
The whole point of this is that a significant fraction of the law firm apparently decided she was racist. That's why they fired her. The fact that you don't say the same thing doesn't change that lots of your fellow travelers hold the view that bevis addressed.
Leftists love blacklisting.
Progressivism would say, maybe those are bad views, but strong employee protections would ensure nobody got fired just for expressing them, especially in such a contrived setting. But right-wingers complaining about someone getting fired for expressing right wing views while generally being opposed to unions and employee protections is certainly... interesting.
Hard to see how one person being fired from one private law firm can be a threat to our democracy.
It’s not one person. It’s one person every day, every week, every month. It’s happened enough that it’s been given its own label.
I guess it’s hard for you to see how one person getting shot to death on one street corner can be a threat to a neighborhood, right?
If no private law firm in the country would permit people to work there if they expressed right wing views, what would that have to do with democracy? It was not the government that fired her. They did not take away her right to vote in elections, to have her vote counted, or for the winners to take office.
So what does this have to do with democracy?
"what would that have to do with democracy?"
What, is this a rhetorical question?
How much future would democracy have if half the political spectrum were barred from working for law firms? That would kind of imply that half the political spectrum could reasonably expect to be unable to get competent representation, too. It would also suggest that it wasn't going to stop at law firms.
In fact, it would suggest that democracy was probably going to stop being a thing in that country.
Again. This is a private firm.
If the government had denied her right to vote due to her political views, then that would be an attack on democracy. That did not happen. This is a disagreement among private parties and it has nothing to do with democracy.
AGAIN, as BB observed, if despicable behavior at Big Law firms is normalized it won't stop there. And, indeed, it hasn't.
To be fair, that would only be doing what the legal educational system has been doing quite openly since at least when I passed through it 30 years ago. The elite schools were essentially conservative and libertarian-free zones. Those who slipped through learned to keep their heads down...
What was merely open is now being formalized as an accreditation requirement.
A "bigger threat"?
Here's an idea: let's oppose all forms of illiberalism.
See? This is why unions are a good thing.
You do realize that real world unions would have been in there demanding her firing, right?
Hypothetical unions are the worst!
Unions are pro Democrat, Brett, but they are not really very woke.
Tell that to Randi Weingarten and her pro-lockdown, pro-CRT union.
No, they wouldn't. Unions aren't you.
Yes they would. Precisely because they are not him.
In what world would a union where so many members (and, no doubt, union functionaries) are lawyers fainting over Dobbs would the union buck the mob?
"You do realize that real world unions would have been in there demanding her firing, right?"
This is extremely obvious. The partners who were doing it are the same people who would be in the union doing it.
The union BS is unbelievably stupid, even by Nige standards.
You say that but here it's the big biz capitalists doing the firing.
Same individual people
Management is not in the union.
No, just the people who would gleefully crawl over the dead bodies of their colleagues to become the management.
Leftist mobs aren’t called "management".
LOL, you just called Hogan Lovells a leftist mob.
It is. Read the room. It just shows how the meaning of "leftist" and "conservative" are so flexible as to be meaningless over time. But only leftists would imagine that here comments about killing legions of black babies were "racist". You know this, but there's no limit to your dishonesty when you imagine you have an opportunity to be snide.
All people are the same people?
Extremely obvious!
Planning a union drive for VC commenters?
They'd just send in the Pinkertons.
You mean those unions that use dues you are required to pay as a condition of employment to support political causes you oppose? How would unions help in these cases?
Union rep would demand a proper hearing, maybe take it to arbitration.
Nah, that's not how it works. You only get arbitration if you have the pull to get arbitration. It's not cheap. Normally the union and management get together and barter cases for mutual benefit. Money wasted on arbitration is better spent on union functionary salaries and perks.
Take this from a former Teamster shop steward.
"[T]here is increasingly no place for social conservatives in many large law firms."
Could be.
So what?
Nothing prevents the conservatives from banding together to form their own firms. Get enough of them together and you have a large firm. Just as they have populated the federal courts, they can populate the private practice of law.
Anyone working for such a firm would be well advised to keep their mouth shut when political or religious issues come up. Today's right answer could be tomorrow's heresy.
I can also tell you this is absolutely not true. I know a number of republicans from working in big law. In DC, even.
They’re just not dicks about it.
Also true in the federal agency where I work. Libertarians, even!
Just don't be a dick.
Perhaps Robin Keller's former partners know more about her than many others do, and have reasonably concluded they don't trust her around clients (or anyone else). I would not have enabled a partner, associated, paralegal, secretary, or messenger liable to start spouting about "baby killers" or "the blacks and all of their terrible abortions" to get anywhere near one of my clients.
If social conservatives have difficulty in modern professional settings more generally, it likely derives (as it should) from their gay-bashing bigotry.
Of course you don't let anyone near your "Clients" Jerry, they might talk about your "Services"
Only liberals can be Dicks, got it.
Don't be a dick....Is this an analogue to the 'no assholes' informal rule private industry articulates? We have the 'no assholes' informal rule where I am. Works well, actually.
OTOH, the data science weenies drive me nuts, sometimes. 🙂
Um, sure…just so long as nobody gets to define having a *mainstream* view as “being a dick.”
Lots of lefties are rationalizing why it’s supposedly OK to ostracize people based on the merits (or lack thereof) of their views. But that misses the point: If it’s in fact a *mainstream* view, then you don’t get to consider the merits of said view when deciding whether to be tolerant. (At least, assuming one is trying to not be a dick…)
If you want to *disagree*, argue the merits. If you want to *ostracize*, show that it’s outside the mainstream.
I'm explicitly not talking about substantive views.
I've been very clear on this point.
There may be examples of people getting fired merely for having conservative views. The OP isn't one of them.
Your whole points needs a real world example, or it's just persecution theatre.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you (or anyone) has established that the viewpoint in question here is truly outside of the mainstream right. And that's what I think would need to be shown.
Being pro life, being pro-Dobbs, even thinking abortion is tantamount to black genocide are all pretty common views among Republicans, and thus definitionally mainstream.
But I also don't think anything needs to be shown about the viewpoint here being outside the mainstream.
From other posts of mine (no shame in missing it - there's like 300 posts now)
FWIW, I think this is wrong as Lat formulates it – i.e. based on the substance of the viewpoint.
But it is correct as a matter of corporate culture. Substance-independent, this partner failed or chose not to read the room, and lost the trust of the organization. Same would be true if she went into an all-hands and started trying to sell everyone on a Marxist revolution or something.
...
As I said above, I don’t think being in favor of Dobbs should lose you a job. And I don’t think that’s what happened here. This was a massive and shameful social fail. Like getting very drunk at the company Christmas party and throwing up all over the tree.
Yes, saying the US Supreme Court got a case right is JUST LIKE advocating for a Marxist revolution.
This is why we call you Gaslight0.
'Dobbs is correctly decided' is not what this woman said, though, is it?
Indeed, the very fact that you had to revise down what she said shows that you know I’m right.
"I said that the court was right to remand the issue to the states."
I'm not sure what you rewrote that into in your head, but yes, she did say the Supreme Court got it right.
In his head she apparently said that black women were too stupid to not get tons of abortions. The voices in HIS head are HER "social fail". ANY contradiction to the lefty-lawyer mob's biases are a "social fail" meriting termination, apparently/ I'm not seeing any limiting principle in that position, but it's all he's got.
... or maybe it's that pointing out that millions of dead Black babies is a tragedy that is JUST LIKE throwing up all over the office Christmas tree at a party. With leftist racism, who can tell?
Yes, we all know you're too blinded by partisanship to ever read a room. You mistake your assholish self-regard for righteous entitlement.
Kinda incredible to see you preaching tolerance given your repeated inability to deal with political disagreement around here without blowing your stack.
Come on, say "asshole" and "read the room" a few more times -- maybe the fiftieth time will somehow make your dumb analogies remotely sensible.
Yeah, that the guy calling this woman's perfectly sensible observations "being a dick" is also preaching "tolerance" is a real hoot.
It's pretty much on a par with the idea of the Democrat 'plantation' - a deeply racist patronising contempt for black people.
What was the exact "deeply racist patronising(sic) contempt for black people" quote, again?
"As I said above, I don’t think being in favor of Dobbs should lose you a job. And I don’t think that’s what happened here. This was a massive and shameful social fail. Like getting very drunk at the company Christmas party and throwing up all over the tree."
I suppose I can get on board with this distinction, *provided* that we're applying the same standard in both directions (not saying this particular law firm wouldn't do so, but quite often the current culture doesn't seem to...).
You're apparently employed, so being a left wing dick is obviously no obstacle.
"Republicans who keep their mouths shut" are predictably not worth spitting on if they were on fire, anyway.
Were it not for abortion, there would be at least 50% more blacks alive today in the US than otherwise. Yes, that's how devastating this "choice" has been to the black population.
Never, ever believe someone who tells you it's "in your best interest" to kill your own offspring. It may be in someone's interest, but it certainly isn't in yours.
Life is the future, not death.
White dude says black women owe it to blackness to have more black babies.
Hey guess who doesn't get to decide other people's 'best interests?' It's you!
Black peoples want to reduce their numbers, fine by me.
Maternal mortality rates for black women are twice that of white women.
I'm sure that's exactly why they have abortions. Exactly.
Combining abortion and racism in a work environment--what could possibly go wrong?
I'm surprised she didn't somehow manage to mention gun control and religion as well...
Yeah, only the mob gets to do that. But she's pressured to listen to it without response.
“...another attendee told Kathryn Rubino of Above the Law ("ATL") that she was "traumatized and hurt" by what Keller said…”
An attorney traumatized by words isn't much of an attorney.
Isn't this really an employment law issue = Robin Keller
I get the ideological aspects here, but as a strictly legal matter, isn't the legal question whether she was wrongly discharged by the Firm? Else, why would the Firm be giving her a 1MM buyout?
Is that payout taxable, btw?
The legal question depends on stuff we don't know about the employment contract.
The OP is about the values question, that's what we're talking about.
The 'values' issue I see is making policy disagreements personal in the workplace. It is hard for me to see how a law firm (yes, a law firm!) discharges an employee because they happen to agree with the legal reasoning of a SCOTUS decision. That seems...not right. Is it a holocaust? To me, that is where the proverbial line was stepped (stomped?) on. The prevalence and ratio of abortions among black women is higher. That is just objectively true. I am emphatically not making a moral judgment about these women; the numbers are just the numbers. The verbally expressed opinion (namely, that the millions of pregnancies terminated by black women post Roe is equivalent to a holocaust of sorts) is a strong (provocative?) one. To me, it is in poor taste to express that verbal opinion with those words (a holocaust) on a company call. A fire-able offense? Man, that is a bad look for a law firm. I know if I were chief legal counsel for a company, I'd look for a law firm that doesn't wash their dirty laundry in public. To me, this is an 'own goal' for Hogan Lovells.
Similarly, I think the lawyers who argued the big 2A case last term also lost their jobs for 'winning' (I may not be recalling this 100% correctly) the case.
You: "The verbally expressed opinion (namely, that the millions of pregnancies terminated by black women post Roe is equivalent to a holocaust of sorts) is a strong (provocative?) one. To me, it is in poor taste to express that verbal opinion with those words (a holocaust) on a company call."
Actual account: "I referred to numerous reports of disproportionately high rates of abortion in the Black community, which some have called a form of genocide. I said I thought this was tragic."
Not seeing the "poor taste" here. Hosting a "company call" in the expectation that all the women in the firm will rant against Dobbs is poor...taste? No, poor judgment. Very poor judgment. If anyone ought to be fired it's whoever made THAT decision.
I was not able to find any public reports regarding the disposition of Keller’s alleged unlawful dismissal complaint, so I’m not sure where your “1MM buyout” figure comes from. (The other woman’s case, perhaps?)
Lawsuit settlements, however, are generally taxable as “income”, unless specifically excepted by law.
As [she was] a “recently retired” US law partner-turned-employee, I’d assume the employment protections applicable to her are probably fairly limited. The publicity for/against HogLov as a result of this incident is probably worth more than any lawsuit (for both parties).
Keller isn't the one getting the "7-figure" payout. Yet.
Rights against whom? (Hint, its starts with a G)
Just because libertarians believe you should be free to act stupidly does not mean you should act stupidly.
And one wonders whether the firing of these people was consistent with the fiduciary duties of the managing partners who did the firing. One seems to have resulted in a massive payout. Were I partner in that firm, I might be miffed about having to pay that.
It's not just rights against government. Libertarianism is primarily concerned about government violations of rights because it's a political theory, and because governmental rights violations are the most likely to be blown off as OK by other political theories.
But if you as a private individual mug somebody, that's a rights violation, too, under libertarian theory.
Keep in mind that Germany went from a nice safe place for Jews to live, to the Final Solution, in under a decade. Things can turn ugly much faster than you realize, once a critical mass of people embrace ugly.
And campus culture at our 'elite' schools has gotten seriously ugly.
"Things can turn ugly much faster than you realize, once a critical mass of people embrace ugly."
Yeah. They already have. And they're your fellow travelers. The leader of the liberal party isn't the one meeting with open neo-nazis. But there is a leader of a major political party who is.
1. You are deranged.
2. Kanye West, an open admirer of Hitler, is a Trumpist, as is his buddy Fuentes.
3. The guys chanting "the Jews will not replace us" were not leftists.
Academia has more Marxists than conservatives. Which ideology has murdered more civilians and started more wars?
Ummm, Germany had anti-semitism long before Hitler.
Martin Luther comes to immediate mind, and that was some 400 years earlier. Just sayin....
'I honestly think death camps will be on the table in another decade or two.'
Yes, you should bear all that in mind as Republicans ramp up their campaign against trans people. Y'know, like the Nazis did.
It's a general point: Libertarianism is NOT only concerned with governmental rights violations. It's mostly concerned with such only because they're typically worse, but private institutions can absolutely violate rights, too.
In this case, yes, it really looks like a contractual violation: They held a meeting at which they said people could discuss their views, and then fired her for doing what they'd told her to do.
And she didn't do anything even slightly outrageous, she expressed perfectly mainstream views.
Right, my fellow travelers who embrace freedom of speech, and have to unmitigated gall to maintain mainstream views the left have decided they are now in a position to punish.
The leader of the liberal party is meeting with known and unapologetic anti-Semites. So what if they're left-wing anti-Semites?
By contrast, we have an open admission by Milo that Trump was ambushed with the intent of making him look bad.
The guys setting cities on fire a few years ago were not rightists, either. I think you're still well ahead of the right in terms of death and destruction.
And I'm pretty sure you'll maintain that lead in coming years.
By contrast, we have an open admission by Milo that Trump was ambushed with the intent of making him look bad.
Oh bullshit. From NBC news:
Yiannopoulos, a former Breitbart editor who was banned from Twitter in 2016 for inciting a racist campaign against the comedian Leslie Jones, told NBC News that he was “the architect” of the plan to have Fuentes travel with Ye in the hopes of slipping him into the dinner with Trump. The intent, according to Yiannopoulos, was for Fuentes to give Trump an unvarnished view of how a portion of his base views his candidacy.
The Guardian:
Speaking to NBC, Yiannopoulos said he came up with a plan for Fuentes to travel with Ye and hopefully gain access to the former president.
“I wanted to show Trump the kind of talent that he’s missing out on by allowing his terrible handlers to dictate who he can and can’t hang out with,” Yiannopoulos said.
“I also wanted to send a message to Trump that he has systematically repeatedly neglected, ignored, abused the people who love him the most, the people who put him in office, and that kind of behavior comes back to bite you in the end.”
Not quite the story you are trying to tell, Brett.
You don't embrace fredom of speech. You just claim you you do.
Oh really?
Bowers, Roof, Payton Gendron, one or two of the recent guys, who have I missed?
Can't wait for you to bring up Scalise again.
One guy talked. Some of bernard11's pals' army burned and looted and murdered. Bernard11 has big complaints about the talking.
They were standing up against state violence, you were not.
I tend to agree that, as a strategic matter, white pro-life advocates should steer clear of this particular talking point until they can find a way to articulate it without jamming their feet into their mouths.
Ideologies don't kill people. People kill people.
Only by a stupidly distorted judgment of what a Marxist is. And come to think of it, probably also by a stupidly distorted judgment of what a conservative is. Got anything for us except stupid distortions?
The left just can't stand it when people point out that their real message is "Black Lives Matter -- Only After Birth".
You would describe John Ely as a racist with his feet in his mouth?
You could say the same about white pro-choice advocates: they should avoid saying how much more important it is for black women to kill their babies than it is for white women.
It goes both ways.
Conservatives don't kill as many people as Marxists.
Marxists like to tell us that words are violence. Why do you not like holding them to their own standards?
Surely you'll agree that followers of some ideologies / religions kill more people than followers of other ideologies / religions?!
Patrick Crusius.
Christchurch shooter
Lets not forget Anders Breverik
Right wingers?
Like Payton Gendron, the socialist, environmentalist, antifa right-winger?
Robert Bowers, the Trump-hating anti-MAGA antisemite "right-winger" that was convinced Trump and the Republicans were controlled by Jews?
Dylan Roof, the mostly non-political racist?
By "recent guy", do you mean David DePape, the insane far-Left "right-winger" druggie that assaulted Paul Pelosi?
Or Anderson Aldrich, the non-binary "right-winger" that got into a just before the shooting major argument with his estranged father over the dad's opposition to gay marriage?
Maybe Andre Bing, the Leftist black "right-winger" that shot his coworkers at a Walmart in an employment dispute?
Oh! Maybe you mean the career criminal Leftist and "right-winger" Christopher Darnell Jones Jr. who shot up the UVA bus trip?
I know you don't mean any of the dozen or so mass shootings in Chicago in the past month or two.
So, exactly which "right-wing" people are you referring to, to compare to the thousands of burned out buildings, billions in dollars of damage, and at least 25 people killed during BLM riots in 2020 alone?
Yeah, it does sound kind of silly if you leave out the part where he came right out and said that was what he was doing.
Why, the very headline of that article you quoted was: Milo Yiannopoulos claims he set up Fuentes dinner ‘to make Trump’s life miserable’
"As fallout from Donald Trump’s meeting with the white supremacist Nick Fuentes continues, a far-right activist has claimed the meeting was a set-up, meant to “make Trump’s life miserable”."
So you've got the cast iron gall to cite as disproving what I said the very news article I got it from. Amazing.
Freedom of association is inextricable from freedom to exclude.
Or for that matter, Ellen Degeneris way back when, and that was when things were already changing. Jump back to the 1970s or earlier, wow, all social ostracism and firing...on the other foot.
And the blacklist of the Hollywood Ten.
The boss says “You can speak at this meeting without fear of reprisals.” and that isn’t a contract?
Have you ever considered that the fascist isn't telling the truth? Or that Trump was speaking to Ye who he definitely knows and his antisemitic remarks were in the news? Or that at the very least Trump is surrounded by people who have connections to open fascists and antisemites?
I read it, Brett. The issue is how he intended to make Trump's life miserable.
Here's a clue, easily found in the reports. It wasn't to have everyone jump all over Trump for associating with Fuentes.
Again:
The intent, according to Yiannopoulos, was for Fuentes to give Trump an unvarnished view of how a portion of his base views his candidacy.
and
“I wanted to show Trump the kind of talent that he’s missing out on by allowing his terrible handlers to dictate who he can and can’t hang out with,” Yiannopoulos said.
“I also wanted to send a message to Trump that he has systematically repeatedly neglected, ignored, abused the people who love him the most, the people who put him in office, and that kind of behavior comes back to bite you in the end.”
So no. Yiannopoulos was absolutely not trying to bring opprobrium down on Trump, contrary to what you suggest. The bastard is a fan of Fuentes, and Trump.
Learn to read.
The "far right activist" WAS Milo. He came right out and told NBC he'd done it to cause Trump trouble. The only person Trump knew was coming was Kanye.
Now, I know that it's considered appropriate in left-wing circles to instantly shun existing friends the moment they express any forbidden viewpoint. So Trump should have had nothing to do with Kanye even though they'd been friends.
But that's not normal behavior for non-lefties. Outside the left, friendship transcends politics.
WOW. Have you ever considered that Milo isn't telling the truth?!
"Now, I know that it’s considered appropriate in left-wing circles to instantly shun existing friends the moment they express any forbidden viewpoint. So Trump should have had nothing to do with Kanye even though they’d been friends.
But that’s not normal behavior for non-lefties. Outside the left, friendship transcends politics."
HIS VIEWPOINT IS THAT THE JEWS SHOULD BE EXTERMINATED. YOU SHOULDN'T BE FREINDS WITH SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THAT. IF YOU ARE......THEN YOU'RE JUST ANOTHER NAZI ASSHOLE.
You expect me to believe Trump has enough attention span to watch the news, much less read it? When it's not about him?
I don't want to give Trump a pass, but damn its easy to believe he really is that oblivious.
If your thesis is that you can believe everything Milo said except his claim about his motive, you've got him exactly backwards. His self-professed motive is just about the only thing you can trust him on.
,,,
...
It’s apparently time to remind you of what you said:
"The leader of the liberal party isn’t the one meeting with open neo-nazis. But there is a leader of a major political party who is."
Since we’ve now established that the one Trump knew he was meeting with was Ye that means that (ignoring the plural) Ye is your idea of an “open neo-nazi”. Whereas Biden only meets with the Stalinist variety of anti-semite?
I mean there is no offer, acceptance, or consideration.
I'd assume it's the same consideration I get whenever I cede to my employer the rights to something I've invented: Continued employment.
When did I describe anyone as a racist?
Because standards are something they only pretend to believe in so they can launch attacks against others for falling short of the pretend standards.
As always.
Fuck yeah lets compare numbers. Lets lump professors teaching Marxist theory with Mao, so we can do some m a t h, the true source of all moral justifications.
So long as Mao and Stalin got the big numbs, conservatives can be as fucking awful as they want! Pinochet and Pinochet again - go wild, the number will never judge you!
THE MATH CHECKS OUT - START KILLING LIBERALS!
Queenie finally found someone she wants to defend from censorship.
Consider taking the afternoon off to go see your psychiatrist.
Are you seriously suggesting "tu quoque" isn't a rational argument technique?
On this forum?
no true scotsman would agree
You didn't object to the stupid distortion
...so we know that you don't really have any objection to stupid distortions.
As opposed to leftists who want to ban menthol cigarettes because black men and women lack the agency to decide whether or not to purchase them.
Does that include Obama?
If you only understood how to do history *properly*, the ivory tower approved in-club way, you would understand that there are no true Scotsmen, and never have been. They're only Scotsmen when they're part of a well-regulated militia with sufficiently high muzzle energy.
Payton Gendron's manifesto:
The author describes himself as someone who initially identified himself as being on the "authoritarian left",[80][81] before he developed American neo-Nazi, antisemitic, eco-fascist, ethno-nationalist, populist, and white supremacist views.[12][82] He claims to have adopted these ideological stances after he visited the discussion board /pol/ on 4chan, an imageboard, as well as the website The Daily Stormer beginning in May 2020,[5] on which he saw "infographics, shitposts, and memes" at around the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States.[78][83][84] The manifesto primarily promotes the white nationalist and far-right "Great Replacement" conspiracy theory of Renaud Camus, which claims that elites are promoting immigration and decreasing white birth rates in an attempt to subject whites to a genocide.[5][85] The manifesto also says that Jews and the elites are responsible for transgender inclusivity and non-white immigration, that Black people disproportionately kill white people, and that non-whites will overwhelm and wipe out the white race.[86][87]
Robert Bowers (also wikipedia)
According to accounts which were given by Bowers' coworkers from 20 years ago, and analysis of his recent social media posts, his conservatism became radicalized as white nationalism; at one point Bowers was fascinated by the right-wing radio host Jim Quinn. At a later time he became a follower of "aggressive online provocateurs of the right wing's fringe."[62] He was deeply involved in posting comments on social media websites such as Gab and he also promoted antisemitic conspiracy theories on them
Dylan Roof:
On June 20, 2015, a website that had been registered to a Dylann Roof on February 9, 2015, lastrhodesian.com, was discovered.[6] Though the identity of the domain's owner was intentionally masked the day after it was registered,[6] law enforcement officials confirmed Roof as the owner.[7] The site included a cache of photos of Roof posing with a handgun and a Confederate Battle Flag, as well as with the widely recognized neo-Nazi code numbers 88 (an abbreviation for the salute "Heil Hitler!") and 1488, written in sand.[6][7] Roof was also seen spitting on and burning an American flag.[6] While some photographs seemed to show Roof at home in his room, others were taken on an apparent tour of slavery-related historical sites in North and South Carolina, including Sullivan's Island, the largest slave disembarkation port in North America, four former plantations, two cemeteries (one for white Confederate soldiers, the other for slaves), and the Museum and Library of Confederate History in Greenville.[6][55][56] Roof is believed to have taken self-portraits using a timer, and his visits were not remembered by staff members working at the sites.[56]
The website also contained an unsigned, 2,444-word manifesto apparently authored by Roof,[57][58] in which he outlined his opinions, all methodically broken into the following sections: "Blacks", "Jews", "Hispanics", "East Asians", "Patriotism", and "An Explanation":[55]
I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.[6]
The manifesto states that its author was "truly awakened" by coverage of the killing of Trayvon Martin:
I read the Wikipedia article and right away I was unable to understand what the big deal was. It was obvious that Zimmerman was in the right. But more importantly this prompted me to type in the words "black on white crime" into Google, and I have never been the same since that day. The first website I came to was the Council of Conservative Citizens. There were pages upon pages of these brutal black on white murders. I was in disbelief. At this moment I realized that something was very wrong. How could the news be blowing up the Trayvon Martin case while hundreds of these black on white murders got ignored?[6][7][59][60]
The manifesto also mentioned the Northwest Front, a Seattle-based white supremacist organization.[61]
So fuck off, Toranth. You're full of shit, and so are the peopke who write the crap you believe.
Wait, your entire evidence that these guys were "right-wing" is that they were racist?
Are you really such a dumb fuck that you think racism is associated with a particular political wing or party? Do you think Farrakhan and Sharpton are "right-wing"? For that matter, considering your own blatant racism you proudly display here, are you claiming that you are "right-wing"?
No, you're just another idiot that declares that every trait you don't like must belong to the "other". Go fuck off yourself, idiot, and stop spewing your ignorant and bigoted bullshit around here.
This particular flavor of racism - the neo-Confederates and White Nationalists, are absolutely on the right. You seem them in the comments here, on the right, defending Trump.
No one was a Nation of Islam person on the list above.
I’d certainly agree that the “scholars” quoted in the Above the Law piece are not doing a very good job of making a persuasive case. The incompetently-expressed black genocide talking point seems to be much more common to me, though.
No need to bring YOU into this.
"...conservatives often have trouble recognizing the agency of black women" is just a weaseling way of calling conservatives racists.
YOU need to learn to read. The subject of this conversation is whether Trump is “meeting with open neo-nazis”. If the one in question (given the plural it should be at least two) is Fuentes then MY’s motive is irrelevant to the fact that Trump didn’t knowingly choose to meet with him.
Maybe he knew MY was going to be in Ye’s entourage, but while MY is a weirdo (as is Ye) he’s not an “open neo-nazi).
So, we’re left with the claim that Trump’s meeting with Ye was his “meeting with open neo-nazis”.
Which it would have been nice if LTG had said clearly at the start.
The things you say, on the other hand, remain irrelevant.
The BLM and Antifa types were NOT "standing up against state violence", you loon.
How many trannys did the Nazis kill, anyway?
I mean, I know there were pink triangles or something, but that's not the same thing, and not where they racked up the big numbers. And opposition to Tranny Story Hour is not the same thing as gassing the perverts.